![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 25 | ← | Archive 30 | Archive 31 | Archive 32 | Archive 33 | Archive 34 | Archive 35 |
I'm posting this to gauge consensus for some categorization that's been/being done.
I'd also argue that individuals of Jewish descent in Australia, South and North America also would not have thought of themselves as Asian but right now this question is limited to Europeans of Jewish descent. As an aside, most of the individuals assigned to these categories are from 17th-21st centuries.
I think both Solar-Wind and I will abide whatever the iconsensus is here. Your opinions are welcomed! Liz Read! Talk! 18:47, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
First, Evildoer187 is referring to genetic studies contributed to equally by dozens of researchers based in institutions like Johns Hopkins and Stanford. These studies found that Ashkenazim share more genes (mitochondrial DNA) with other Jewish groups than than they do with non-Jewish groups. These studies put to rest the hypothesis that Ashkenazim are not genetically linked to other groups of Middle Eastern descent.< http://www.ashg.org/2013meeting/abstracts/fulltext/f130123130.htm> Secondly, the paternal ancestors of the Ashkenazim left the Middle East as early as 70 AD and as late as the early Middle Ages. < /info/en/?search=Jewish_history> So, an arguments against defining Ashkenazim as being of Asian descent that is based on an assertion that many of our pre-historic ancestors lived in Asia doesn't make much sense. The emigration from Asia that created the Ashkenazim is far from pre-historic. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 06:21, 23 November 2013 (UTC)Garrettrutledge55
Thanks for the comments,
Obi-Wan Kenobi and
Cullen328. I should also say that:
Liz Read! Talk! 19:41, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
As a Jew, I am compelled to point out that persons who would deny that all Jews are of Asian descent are engaging in imperialistic thinking. Many Jews self-identify as being of Middle Eastern (Asian) descent. If certain Ashkenazi Jews appear more European than Asian, that is because they are multi-ethnic; having paternal ancestors who emigrated from the Middle East to the European continent where they married European women who themselves converted to their husbands' religion. Genetic studies of contemporary Ashkenazim prove that this was the case. Using the argument that "we all descend from Africa" to deny any ethnicity their right to identify their place of origin is ethically and anthropologically incorrect. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 17:12, 22 November 2013 (UTC)Garrettrutledge55
Thanks for all of the participation in this question, I'm satisfied with the response and don't think this needs to move to an RFC. I did leave "of Asian descent" categories in geographically close cases such as Category:Egyptian people of Jewish descent and Category:Turkish people of Jewish descent that are close to the Middle East.
Interestingly, Jewish people are not included in Category:Russian people of Asian descent where, since Russia is located in Asia, a legitimate case could be made that they are, technically, of Asian descent even if they are primarily European in heritage, culture and influence. Liz Read! Talk! 20:09, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
I can see why you decided to remove "Americans of Asian descent" from the "American Ashkenazi Jews" cat, but removing "Middle Eastern people" and whatnot from the main "Ashkenazi Jews" category is just....well, wrong. Ashkenazi Jews did arrive to Europe from Asia/the Middle East. It's equally absurd when Sephardi Jews and Roma have not been removed. Evildoer187 ( talk) 23:44, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
I wish to reiterate my opposition to the blanket categorization of all Jews as bring of Asian descent. There have been established Jewish comunities in Europe and North Africa for well over 2,000 years. Intermarriage and conversion have affected such communities. Given what we now know of human origins, all humans have African origins and all human communities other than sub-Saharan African communities have Asian origins. Possibly speaking Hebrew as evidence of Asian origin is absurd. Both of my sons speak some Hebrew but this is the result of American teaching not ancestors from 1500 years ago. If we have geneological information indicating specific ancestry of a specific person in a specific Asian community, then fine. But European Jews in general are no more "Asian" in origin than are Hungarians or Romanians or Maltese. Many Jews today are the product of conversion and I have non-Jewish Irish, English, Norwegian and Swedish ancestry. Back when the Ashkenazi ancestors left "Asia" for "Europe", the modern concept of the continents with the Ural Mountains neatly separating Europe from Asia wasn't universally accepted. And today, a notion of an "Asian" person that combines Turks with Japanese, while excluding Greeks and Egyptians on the basis of continental boundaries is simply absurd. This is tendentious editing if it continues. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 07:50, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
This is incorrect. There is no statute of limitations on descent. At no time has an academic categorization of descent been based on recent history only. Descent is based on a group's place of origin as evidenced by origin of culture, genetics and known paths of emigration. This discussion has become non-academic. Until 50 years ago, Ashkenazim were regarded as emigrants to Europe and were never confused with groups of entirely European descent. The recent drive to categorize Ashkenazim as being of European descent began with the creation of the State of Israel in 1948. Many of the new state's founders were Ashkenazi Jews who based their claim to self-determination in Israel on being aboriginal to the Land of Israel formerly known as the British Mandate of Palestine. Since then, opponents of Jewish nationalism have been working hard to counter the argument for the Asian origin of Jews whose ancestors emigrated to all parts of the European continent from nations in the Middle East. When we counter this counter-argument and return Ashkenazim to the category of Persons of Asian Descent, we are, in fact, simplifying the method of categorization and eliminating the contradictions that arise from allowing politics to determine scientific methodology. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 22:44, 24 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
Debresser, As an Ashkenazi Jew, I am stating that Ashkenazim do, in fact, self-identify as being of Middle Eastern descent. We are multi-ethnic and, in some parts of Europe and North America, are more socially mainstreamed than any other Jewish group in the diaspora (all Jews living outside the Land of Israel). If asked to tick a box on an EOE form, we would almost certainly not mark 'Asian/Pacific Islander' due to the fact that the purpose of the form is to divide people according to their racial phenotype, not identify their continent of origin. I've known Latinos to tick the 'Caucasian' box because they are mestizo or bi-racial so appear as Caucasian as Ted Cruz. Does this mean they would not identify as Latino in some other milieu? Certainly not. If you were to ask ten Ashkenazi Jews where our paternal Jewish ancestors came from, nine would say, the Land of Israel. Those Jews would say, the Land of Israel because the thread connecting the past, which is our place of origin, to the present, which is wherever we find ourselves, is the basis of our culture. In that milieu, we always self-identify as being of Middle Eastern origin. I hope my explanation improves your cultural sensitivity to this issue. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 19:08, 25 November 2013 (UTC)Garrettrutledge55 67.182.154.25 ( talk) 07:55, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
Debresser, The Land of Israel is found in the Middle East. In genealogical terms, descent refers to parentage or a single generation of a family. In ethnographical terms, descent refers to the absolute origin of an ethnic group or people. I did not use myself as a proof. Rather, I pointed out that all Jews point to the Land of Israel as their place of origin. If you are a Jew and you do not identify the Land of Israel as the absolute place of origin of the Jewish people, then your view is a deviation from the norm. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 19:08, 25 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Garrettrutledge55 ( talk • contribs) 16:59, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
I am somewhat concerned by the automatic assumption that the presence of lighter skin or different eye color automatically brands one as being more European or not. If one reads Thor Heyerdal's account of Easter Island, Aku Aku, he notes that early discoverers of this clearly remote and genetically isolated island were surprised to find a population that seemed to have both the expected darker colored Pacific Island native as well as lighter skinned, European looking, natives from within the same peoples. It is clearly not accurate to look at a population of people and therefore exclaim that the color of their skin is automatically proof of a high percentage of intermarriage. It is also reasonable to consider that of a population who moved from the Middle East to Europe that the lighter skinned people were seen as more attractive, which is shown to bring greater acceptance and even success (more attractive people are more successful or so studies suggest). While those forces may not have been as active 1,000 years ago, there may still have been a social pressure which brought marital success to those of the group who had more Europoid features, which would then slowly shift the coloring of the group as a whole.
Jews trace their heritage to the Middle East, culturally and genetically. An interesting study of the "priest" gene among Jewish communities found similarities among those who have that heritage, both among Sepharadi and Ashkenazi communities < http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/07/980714071409.htm>. Since the priest heritage is passed paternally, the presence of this gene even among Europoid looking Ashkenazi Jews gives us good reason to wonder about the amount of intermarriage which is required to create a certain appearance. Artstop ( talk) 18:28, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
I would like to reiterate one of the points made in here earlier, that we need to be mindful of the possibility of inadvertently reinforcing or encouraging antisemitism or antisemitic politics. More specifically, the idea that modern Jews are really just ethnic Germans or Poles or whatever who converted to Judaism, and who don't have any real ties, roots, or connection to the Middle East, and thus do not "belong" there. Neglecting to mention or acknowledge the Middle Eastern origins and identity of Jews could prove to be dangerous, and might just end up complicating things further. Evildoer187 ( talk) 19:11, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
Jewish people may self identify as Ashkenazi or Sepharadi, but that is far more to do with identifying the form of prayers which they are using, and less (if anything) about their long-term ethnic heritage. For example, while Sepharadi initially refers to those Jews who went to Spain (Sepharad in Hebrew), it has come to refer to all the Jewish communities which remained in the East,in Egypt, Iraq, Libya, Lebanon, and even within the boundaries of what is now Israel. Both groups identify as "Jewish", which is tied to the common heritage that both share of coming from the Middle East. That some people may not identify themselves as such is more about their ignorance of their heritage than not. The proper classification for the descent of the Jews should be Middle Eastern. Artstop ( talk) 19:27, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
I agree that we are Middle Eastern regardless of whether or not were Sephardi, Ashkenazi, Mizrahi, Beta Israel, Karaites etc. The only differences are the cultures our ancestors were raised around and how it influenced their Judaism. Hence why Jews can look different, act different and think differently from one another. I as an Ashkenazi don't have the same cultural similarities than that of a Jew from Ethiopia, Tunisia, India or Iran. But Ashkenazi Jews are also different from one another depending on the country they lived in at the time. French Jews are different than Russian Jews who are different than German Jews who are different than Danish Jews and so on. Although French Jewry is more Sephardi now, it was once mostly Ashkenazi which is the French Jewry I was raised in on my mothers side. But with all that said, we are still from the Middle East originally. It doesn't how far back our ancestry goes, we are still a Semitic people who originated from that area. Plus, you create a slippery slope when you start to begin questioning how far it should go before someone can be considered authentically middle eastern 2605:E000:5FC0:21:954:941D:1CC4:B51F (talk) 19:53, 25 November 2013 (UTC) JVBcynical85 ( talk) 19:55, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
for example, but the DNA studies I linked to above are also being ignored. The numerous articles e.g. on the most recent study report thatThere had been some evidence of mass conversions, especially of women, to Judaism throughout the Mediterranean in the past, the authors wrote in the study. That resulted in about 6 million citizens, or a tenth of the Roman population, who were Jewish. Bloomberg
Or"Another recent study, also based on [mtDNA], found that a mixture of European ancestries ranged from 30 percent to 60 percent among Ashkenazi and Sephardi populations, with Northern Italians showing the greatest [genetic] proximity to Jews of any living group." NYT
The Ashkenazi are the most common Jewish ethnic division. Previous efforts to trace origins of Ashkenazi Jews have been spotty and controversial, the authors wrote. The latest research used a larger database than in previous attempts, allowing them to unravel the entire mitochondrial genomes. Bloomberg
The explanation for the presence of European Y-chromosomes in Ashkenazi DNA is simple and supported by the sampling of a wide swath of Ashkenazi DNA that has been compared to samples taken from other Jewish groups. The explanation: Jewish men emigrated in substantial numbers to Europe from the Middle East. After reaching Europe, these men married and had children with European women. Those women became members of the communities they married into. Over time, those communities grew and evolved and now constitute a unique group known as Ashkenazi Jews. < http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/10/131008112539.htm> The findings of this and other studies put to rest the hypothesis that Ashkenazim descend from the Caucuses and were once citizens of some Eastern European kingdom now lost to antiquity. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 04:32, 26 November 2013 (UTC)Garrettrutledge55
I tend to agree that Jews should be classified under Middle Eastern/Asian descent. Jewish identity certainly originates there, and while certain people will have more Middle Eastern/Asian descent than others, it's virtually impossible to know beyond a shadow of a doubt to what extent the ancestry of either individual Jews or entire Jewish groups (Ashkenazi, for example) originate in Asia, Europe or elsewhere. While of course there's many theories (based largely on circumstantial evidence), and DNA studies that support either the European or the Asian hypotheses, I think that since we'll never know the answers with complete confidence, it's fair to recognize what most Jewish people believe about their identities, since there's really not much in the way of compelling evidence to the contrary. Kitty ( talk) 05:28, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
Kitty1983, the evidence tells us that Ashkenazim are multi-ethnic, yet have more in common genetically with other Jewish groups than they do with non-Jewish groups. Roughly 40% of Ashkenazi DNA is of European origin while the remaining 60% is of Middle Eastern origin. Not acknowledging the Asian descent of Ashkenazi Jews makes zero sense. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 06:40, 26 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
This comment belong to a sub-thread above, but because it contains new arguments, I choose to put it at the current bottom of this discussion. @Garrettrutledge55. Yes, the Land of Israel is in the Middle East. So? Category:People of German descent is in Category:People of European descent. That doesn't mean that all "German" categories and articles also receive a "European" one. Just the main German category. And there is one great difference: "Jewish" is not originated in geography like "German" e.g.! "Jewish" is an ethno-religious group, with proselytes from some 40 centuries of religious Jewish history! Those proselytes are not all from Israel, or even the Middle East. By the way, if anything, the Jewish people is originated in Egypt ( The Exodus is cited in the Bible as the cradle of the Jewish people). And the first Jew was from Iraq. Still, which Jew calls himself Egyptian or Iraqi?! It just doesn't work that way. Debresser ( talk) 08:40, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
Debresser, Did you just cite the bible as evidence? Did you just assert that a blood quantum nullifies the indigeny of ethnic Jews to the Land of Israel? First, there is evidence which suggests that the Hebrew and Canaanite nations merged and that elements of Canaanite culture and religion mingled with Hebrew monotheism. It is believed that the Hebrew name for G-d, Yahweh or YHVH is of Canaanite origin. Secondly, racial purity has no place in a discussion about ethnicity or indigeny. Multi-ethnic or mestizo South American Natives are no less indigenous to the American continent than Natives living in closed communities who have no European ancestry. The same is true of multi-ethnic Jews. Please limit your arguments to what can be deemed scientific and/or rational. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 17:16, 26 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
Can we stop talking about genetics please? Especially these discussions of racial purity as a determining factor for ethnicity and descent. That isn't what we're discussing at all. In any case, Jews belong in the Middle East/Asian because Jews are BY DEFINITION an ethnic/national group of Middle Eastern descent. This isn't rocket science. Evildoer187 ( talk) 18:30, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
Debresser, The bible is admissible as evidence in a discussion of theology or faith. We are discussing the descent of Ashkenazi Jewry. You argued that Jews, in general, originated in Egypt then cited the bible as evidence. Also, descent in ethnographical terms is not defined by "proximate descent", or where a group resided recently. Descent is defined by the place or places in which a group originated. If this were not true, then Latinos residing in the Americas could not claim European descent. I agree that we should set aside genetics for the time being. Let's get back to basics. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 20:22, 26 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
[If someone identifies as a Romani-American from Hungary, for example, they are not only acknowledging that they are Hungarian, but that they are Romani. Romanis are an ethnic group/nationality of Indian descent, therefore including them under Asian descent alongside European descent would be reasonable. American people of Jewish descent would function in the same way, for the most part.]
Here, Evildoer187 makes an ethnographically correct argument. If descent was determined in proximate terms only then the Romani would be barred from the category of Ethnic Groups of Asian Descent. Romani identity and culture originated in South Asia and has been maintained by the Romani in their diaspora. This makes the Romani an ethnicity that can claim a single place of origin regardless of where they emigrate to. This would cease to be true if emigration was followed by assimilation and a loss of Romani cultural identity. The same is true of Jews. Our identity and culture originated in the Middle East and has been maintained in our diaspora. Continuity of cultural identity is the primary determinant of ethnic origin, not proximate descent or racial purity. Jews define the Land of Israel as the birthplace of Jewish identity and culture. Therefore, Jews are ethnically Middle Eastern. All I am asking is that you apply the same standards of ethnic origin to Jews that you would apply to the Romani or any other ethnic group. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 00:45, 27 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
An anonymous IP editor at Talk:John_Schlossberg#Jewish Category (relative of John F. Kennedy) is arguing that Schlossberg, whose father is a Ukrainian Jew, should not be included in the Category:American people of Ukrainian-Jewish descent because Schlossberg's father is not from the Middle East, and therefore is not of Jewish descent. -- Green Cardamom ( talk) 19:17, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
I would like to reiterate the point that a majority of Jews self-identify as being of Middle Eastern (Asian) descent. Identifying Ashkenazim as 'European Jews' does not nullify their Asian origins. Rather, this identifier merely places them within a sub-category of Asian Jewry. Despite their European appearance, Ashkenazi Jews share more genes with other Jewish groups than they do with non-Jewish groups. If I'm not mistaken, there are participants in this discussion who suggest that Ashkenazim be removed from the Asian category simply because they have longstanding residence in Europe. According to this logic, I can claim to be a Native American simply because my family has a longstanding residence in North America and be removed from any category other than 'Indigenous American'. Worse, there are some in this discussion who are arguing for a dissolution of separate racial categories due to the African origin of our common human ancestors. This logic is ethnographically incorrect. Please, come to your senses. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 08:25, 24 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
Cullen, Take it from a Jewish Studies major, Judaism is a religion. Jews are an ethnicity. When a Jew falls away from the faith, he or she remains a Jew. A person can convert to Judaism, but does not become ethnically Jewish in the process. Every ethnic Jew can, in fact, trace their roots to the Middle East. In the case of Ashkenazim, we can trace our roots to both Europe and the Middle East; though the bulk of our genome is of Middle Eastern origin.
My advice to everyone: keep it simple. Good taxonomy (the science of classifying things and concepts) begins with simple questions. We can fuss over dubious histories and theories or we can examine facts. It is a fact that Ashkenazi Jews share more mitochondrial DNA with other Jewish groups than they do with non-Jewish groups. It is a fact that Ashkenazi Jews possess an oral history that traces their roots to the Land of Israel; which is to say, the Middle East. Good taxonomy demands that Ashkenazim be given the dual classification of being a people of both Asian and European descent. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 16:45, 26 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
@174.226.1.204, you are comparing a national/ethnic group to an openly proselytizing religion. So yes, apples to oranges. Evildoer187 ( talk) 18:24, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
Obi-Wan, Allow me to clarify. Judaism is a religion. Jews are an ethnic group. Mere conversion to Judaism does not make one ethnically Jewish. If one converted to Judaism and married into the tribe, then a family tie would exist. One would then be ethnically Jewish if one was not so before marriage. Non-Jews often make assumptions about Jews and Judaism based on comparisons made between Christianity and Judaism. Non-Jews reason that If one becomes a Christian when one converts to Christianity then the same must be true of persons who convert to Judaism. When one converts to Judaism one joins a community of faith, but does not necessarily join the ethnic Jewish community. For Jews, ethnic bonds are determined by family , not religious affiliation. This is true of ethnicity in general. An ethnic group may even embrace more than one religion. I hope my explanation was helpful. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 20:51, 26 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
Obi-Wan, This is a matter of Jewish culture and tradition, not personal judgement. Again, you're confusing rituals and beliefs with blood and family ties. We did not consider ourselves into being. We are either born or marry into the tribe. Because we are an ethnicity, a Jew can leave the faith or marry a non-Jew and remain as Jewish as the day he or she was mitzvahed. If you won't take my word for it, then ask a Rabbi or read this book: < http://www.amazon.com/Jewish-Literacy-Important-Religion-History/dp/0688085067> Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 01:07, 27 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
I think it is time to close both these two discussions: two editors disagree with the rest of the world. They should stop editing Wikipedia with edits that go against consensus. Debresser ( talk) 01:45, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
[Will never convince educated people and most here that Jews as a people and converts to Judaism should be classified as Middle Eastern. There was a time that people though that Japanese-Jewish where part of the ten lost tribes of Israel...but we have learned alot since then and have come to discover that not all Jews trace there heritage directly to the middle east. Need people to stop trying to put a genetic spin on all Jews and see that there is only a common religion not a common ancestor to all Jews.]
Moxy, First, It is against Wikipedia policy to assert that an opposing opinion is uneducated. Secondly, the majority view (not in this discussion, but in the real world, obviously) is that Jews originated in the Land of Israel. Yes, people have converted to the faith in the diaspora, yet these persons make up only a part, not the whole of Jewish ancestry in the diaspora. Your assertion that Jews share a common religion, but no common Middle Eastern ancestors is not only factually incorrect, it is anti-Semitic. Allow me to explain why. Jewish identity is based, in part, on lineage. Some of us may self-identify as American or European Jews, but we trace our roots back to the Land of Israel. This was especially true of Russian Jews at the turn of the last century. Those Jews built shtetls (self-contained Jewish communities) and maintained traditions that can be traced to medieval Palestine. When you argue that Jews are not an ethnicity, you are attacking the belief that we are the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and the original tribes of Israel. Even if the story of Abraham and his offspring is not objectively true, it is objectively true that Jews began to appear in Europe during periods of Jewish mass exodus from the Land of Israel. Moreover, the argument that Jews are an invented people is only given by anti-Semites in an effort to accomplish through psychological warfare what they could not accomplish through murder and genocide. I am not calling you an anti-Semite, but am encouraging you to consider the source of the argument you've chosen. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 20:29, 28 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55\
Moxy, A geneticist would not discount the ethnicity of a group or nullify ethnic origin based on occurrences of intermarriage or multi-ethnicity. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 21:24, 28 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
A taxonomist would simply classify a multi-ethnic group as having more than one point of geographic origin. I'm having a heckuvah time sussing out why this concept is so difficult for some to grasp. Taxonomy does not demand that every thing or concept be placed in a single category. This is the stuff of basic science. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 21:31, 28 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
From Wikipedia:
Paternal lineage, Y chromosome[edit]
In 1992 G. Lucotte and F. David were the first genetic researchers to have documented a common paternal genetic heritage between Sephardi and Ashkenazi Jews.[21][22] In 1993, A. S. Santachiara Benerecetti, et al. have suggested the Middle Eastern origin of Jewish paternal lineages.[23] In 2000, M. Hammer, et al. conducted a study on 1371 men and definitively established that part of the paternal gene pool of Jewish communities in Europe, North Africa and Middle East came from a common Middle East ancestral population. They suggested that most Jewish communities in the Diaspora remained relatively isolated and endogamous compared to non-Jewish neighbor populations.[2][12][24] < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews> Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 21:36, 28 November 2013 (UTC)Garrettrutledge55
There's more where that came from. It's time to show. Telling won't work on you lot, obviously. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 21:45, 28 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
European female ancestry is not being ignored. That ancestry does not nullify the Jewish male ancestry of Ashkenazim. Ashkenazi Jews are multi-ethnic. We are of both Middle Eastern and European descent. We belong under both categories of descent. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 21:49, 28 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
The argument for Ashkenazi Middle Eastern ancestry does not rely upon "some genetic link". Multiple studies suggest that Ashkenazim share more genes (or specific genetic mutations) with other Jewish groups than they do with non-Jewish groups. This has become a matter of scientific consensus. From Wikipedia: [Two studies by Nebel et al. in 2001 and 2005, based on Y chromosome polymorphic markers, showed that Ashkenazi Jews are more closely related to other Jewish and Middle Eastern groups than to their host populations in Europe (defined in the using Eastern European, German, and French Rhine Valley populations)]. < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews> Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 18:44, 29 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
Add to that the fact that Ashkenazi Jewish culture and the dominant religion among Ashkenazi Jews originated in the Middle East, not Europe or the Americas. Also, the mutations I mentioned earlier are passed from parent to child or from generation to generation within groups that share parentage. Hence their use to confirm ethnicity and lineage. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 18:59, 29 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
[...we should not be implying that Category:Middle Eastern people is relevant to all Jewish article without taking into account other relevant cats. As has been implied above - most people do understand that European Jews are a multi-ethnic group with a long and dynamic background. Yes there is a common link for many - but there are many other links as well within the communities.]
Moxy, It is not necessary to fit Ashkenazi to one category of descent or the other. Moreover, most ethnic groups contain persons who deviate from racial homogeny. Mestizos (persons of South American Native and Spanish descent) are categorized as Latino, a term nominally used to identify persons of Spanish descent living in Latin America. Latino is an explicitly ethnic category that includes persons of African, Native, Portuguese and Spanish descent. The inclusiveness of this category demonstrates that ethnicity and race are mutually exclusive (they are separate concepts). From Wikipedia: [Hispanic/Latino Americans are very racially diverse, and as a result form an ethnic category, rather than a race.[13][16][17][18]] < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic_and_Latino_Americans> Jews are ethnically Middle Eastern due to the fact that we have more in common with one another than we do with non-Jews regardless of where we live or to which Jewish sub-group we belong. More to the point, the genetics, culture, linguistics and religion Jews share originated in the Middle East. Again, Ashkenazim are ethnically Middle Eastern, but are categorizable as being of both Asian and European descent. It is ethnographically incorrect to remove Ashkenazim, or any Jewish sub-group, from the category of persons of Asian descent. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 21:00, 29 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
Moxy, I'm unsure which of my points you're using to support your assertion that Jews are not of Middle Eastern descent or an ethnicity, period. If you were a geneticist, then you would be aware of the genetic mutations diaspora Jewish populations share with populations residing continuously in the Middle East. Diaspora Jews share more of these mutations with one another than they do with non-Jews. This confirms that A) Jews are an ethnicity that share common, distant ancestors and B) that those common ancestors are of Middle Eastern descent. Genetics affirms that for Ashkenazim these ancestors were primarily, but not exclusively males of Middle Eastern origin. Please word your comments clearly if you'd like to be understood. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 06:13, 1 December 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
Debresser, The term, 'Native American' denotes pre-Colombian ancestry. That ancestry need not be singular and widely shared among a single group of Natives for the term to apply. Ethnic Jews are indigenous to a much smaller piece of real estate than Native Americans. So, it stands to reason that the genetic diversity of Native peoples would be much greater than that of the smaller Jewish nation. Comparing one to the other serves no purpose in this discussion. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 06:13, 1 December 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
I came back a week later to see if there was any consensus so I could return to editing categories of descent and I see a majority of people (meaning over 50%) arguing that editors should not automatically classify any person "of Jewish descent" who lives in any country of the world as being "Asian". I should just remind people that, on Wikipedia, "of Jewish descent" is a separate category than "Jewish".
This is not about the Bible or religious identity or genes or where ones ancestors came from 2000 years ago. If this was true, Europe was sparsely populated and most modern Europeans came from intermixing with Asian groups who migrated West. Everyone should be defined as being Eurasian or African.
We can't base these categorical decisions on one (or two) person's perception of how "most people who are Jewish think of themselves". This is not about denying anyone their heritage or international politics. It's about organizing articles and where readers might look for articles on a particular subject. Try to not personalize this discussion.
Here's a case: Suppose, there is an article on a 21st century Argentine person of Jewish-German descent. As it is now, that individual would be classified (in addition to occupational categories) to be of Argentine descent, Jewish descent and German descent. I argue that they shouldn't also be categorized as of Asian descent. Or a Canadian of Polish-Jewish descent but whose family has lived in Canada for four generations. These are the kind of real-life examples I was working with.
And while I see appeals to religious identity, genetics, solidarity with Israel, etc. I don't see much mention of Wikipedia Categorization guidelines which should be guiding force here, not personal opinion. I refer you to WP:OVERCAT and WP:EGRS for some insight into why 1) ethnic descent categories are contentious and also 2) why an individual should not be over-categorized into 5 or 6 different ethnic categories (especially considering the dozen or so other categories that might apply to them). Liz Read! Talk! 21:23, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
Liz, Outside of this discussion, there is nothing contentious about the standing categorization of Jews as being an ethnic group of Middle Easter descent. Wikipedia guidelines, as you cite them, do not determine reality. Wikipedia is an encyclopedic source of information. Like any encyclopedia, Wikipedia should and must not deviate from conceptual norms. Categorization or taxonomy should be guided by scientific principle and logic, not a need to trim the fat or create a purely Wikipedian system of categorization. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 23:28, 29 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
[Here's a case: Suppose, there is an article on a 21st century Argentine person of Jewish-German descent. As it is now, that individual would be classified (in addition to occupational categories) to be of Argentine descent, Jewish descent and German descent. I argue that they shouldn't also be categorized as of Asian descent. Or a Canadian of Polish-Jewish descent but whose family has lived in Canada for four generations. These are the kind of real-life examples I was working with.]
Liz, In the statement above you conflate nationality with descent. The person in question would be an Argentinian national of Jewish-German descent. The person in the second example would be a Canadian national of Polish-Jewish descent. Descent refers to the absolute origin or origins of persons in terms of ethnicity, culture and sometimes religion. Nationality refers to the country in which a person was born. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 04:53, 30 November 2013 (UTC)GarrettRutledge55
Do we need to do an RfC on this topic? I would like to get this resolved rather than in this stalemate. Liz Read! Talk! 17:07, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Obi-wan, When you mentioned that categorizing Jews as persons of Middle Eastern would necessitate classifying Latinos as persons of European descent, you were confusing Latinos with Hispanics. Hispanics, like Jews, trace their origin to a specific place. Because Hispanics self-identify as being of Spanish descent they are categorized as such by the US Census Bureau. Please keep in mind, proximate descent plays no role in this categorization. Moreover, Latino is an ethnolinguistic category whereas Hispanic denotes national origin and ethnicity. Jews, like Hispanics, trace their origins to Israel and maintain a language, culture and religion consistent with that identified place of origin. Thus, Jew denotes Middle Eastern descent in the same way Hispanic denotes Spanish descent. Attaching categories of descent to ethnic groups based on proximate descent only is too exclusive to function properly as a method of categorization. I strongly suggest that editors not adopt methods of categorization that A) conflict with the ways ethnic groups self-identify and B) are inconsistent with norms of categorization. We're fast approaching a time when Wikipedia will cease to be relevant due to the bad practices of editors. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 02:31, 1 December 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
Cullen, As I've stated already, this is not my definitions of "who is a Jew". Rather, this is a Judeo-normative definition of who is a Jew. Converts to Judaism are a rarity, so the question of how the Jewish world should regard converts to the faith has never merited widespread discussion. I imagine converts are a rarity due to the fact that Jews don't proselytize. I've met one convert to the faith. He observed the high holidays, read Torah and went to shul, but continued to self-identify as an Irish-American, not as an ethnic Jew. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 06:40, 1 December 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
Again, Jews are an ethnicity. Judaism is a religion practiced by many, but not all ethnic Jews. The world's most famous atheist, Karl Marx was an ethnic Jew. This delineation is widely understood and accepted. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 06:45, 1 December 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
Obi-wan, I would agree with you if Jewish descent were not explicitly Middle Eastern. My impression is that editors are constructing a system of categorization that meets a need for simplicity. If that system were or could be made compatible with norms of categorization and the ways groups self-identify then we would not be crossing swords. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 07:02, 1 December 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
Cullen, By your own admission, the number of converts to Judaism is statistically small. It might interest you to know that ethnic Jews make up the bulk of persons converting to Judaism. When the State of Israel brings ethnic Jews to Israel, those Jews tend to convert as part of the Aliyah (coming to Israel) process if they were not observant already. These are the converts of which the State of Israel speaks. Allow me clarify my earlier statement. The conversion of non-Jews to Judaism is a rarity. Because these conversions are rare, the way in which an ethnic Jew should regard a non-Jew who has converted to Judaism has not been widely discussed among Jews. I qualify this statement by comparing the discussion of conversion among Jews to the discussion of inter-ethnic marriage among Jews. The latter occurs frequently due to a rise in secular attitudes among Jews and has been widely discussed. This is not to say that ethnic Jews do not welcome or recognize conversion to the faith. It is a fact that most US Jewish congregants do. This is to say the conversion of non-Jews to Judaism is not a fixture of Jewish life. If your shul has 20 persons who've undergone a formal conversion, then His hand must be upon you all. Well done. 67.182.154.25 ( talk) 21:13, 1 December 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
I would be glad to define terms and clarify the contexts in which I am using them. The term 'ethnic Jew' refers to a Jew who is a member of any Jewish ethnic group. The major Jewish ethnic groups are the Sephardim, Mizrahim and Ashkenazim. However, there are many more. Each group traces their roots to Israel and shares genetic mutations that affirm a common ancestry. I use the term to underline the reality that Jews are joined by more than Torah. We are an ethnicity. It is a common mistake to define Jews foremost as a religious group and forget our ethnicity altogether. A Jew is a Jew regardless of whether he or she is observant. < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_ethnic_divisions> 67.182.154.25 ( talk)Gilad55 (formerly garrettrutledge55) —Preceding undated comment added 04:23, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
[Most emphatically not: Jews is an ethno-religious group. This is well sources in our Wikipedia article, and it is one of several reason why you are wrong wanting to categorize Jews in all kinds of strange categories.]
Your argument is that Jews are not an ethnic group because we are also defined as an ethno-religious group?
"An ethnoreligious group (or ethno-religious group) is an ethnic group of people whose members are also unified by a common religious background." < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnoreligious_group> Gilad55 ( talk) 05:58, 2 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
Can we agree that descent and proximate descent are radically different terms? Descent refers to the origins of an ethnic group in terms of language, culture, ancestry and, in some, but not all cases, religion. Proximate descent refers to the place in which a prior generation resided and does not determine descent as a whole. For instance, I am an American Ashkenazi Jew. Ashkenazim paternally descend from the Middle East. As an American Jew, I am proximately descended from Jews living in North America. If you were categorizing on an individual basis, then you could correctly categorize me as a person of North American proximate descent. When categorizing my ethnicity as a whole, you could not correctly categorize my descent as anything other than Middle Eastern. If you did attempt to categorize the descent of ethnic groups according to proximate descent, you would then be required to break up the ethnic sub-group 'Ashkenazim' into a myriad of continental groupings. Does that sound simple to you? Again, you would also place that system of categorization in conflict with the ways in which many ethnic groups self-identify; which is ethnographically incorrect. Gilad55 ( talk) 21:12, 2 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
It's not only the issue of self-identification. It is also identification of native European population towards Jews that plays a role. While I was born in the Soviet Union, I was never identified as "Russian". Even in a Soviet-issues passport I was identified as a "Jew". My grandparents who were born in Moldova and Ukraine also were never identified as native Europeans. They were always viewed as foreigners who came to Europe from Middle East - specifically Israel. Often throughout their lives they were told to "go back to Israel". This happened before the nation of Israel was even formed in 1948. While the span of time we are discussing is rather long, it does not matter for our current discussion, as the experience of Jews throughout European history is similar, and you can find it even in classical works from Shakespeare in Merchant of Venice to Walter Scott in Ivanhoe [1] - Jews were culturally and traditionally linked to the land of Israel. Jews were always identified as foreigners in Europe who migrated into Europe from Middle East (Israel more precisely). §nublin2014 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nublin2014 ( talk • contribs) 21:49, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
I sought out this Wiki project then joined this conversation believing I would encounter persons from whom I could learn something. Instead, I found this mishegoss. I'm unlikely to encounter this much misinformation about Jews and Judaism outside of davidduke.com. I'm no one's sock puppet nor have I been canvassed to this discussion. These are my arguments. Each is mined from my education in ethnology and objective study of the Jewish people. I invite you all to research and challenge my assertions rather cast doubt on my motives as an editor. Nothing I've "pushed" is POV. I'm arguing for the application of basic ethnology to this discussion of what determines descent. It's becoming clear that discussion alone won't sway you. Here forward, I'll be adding citations to my points. If any of us fails to cite a point and offers a rationalization in place of an academic argument, then such a comment will not merit a response. Gilad55 ( talk) 04:16, 4 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
I would like to point out that those of you accusing myself and other editors of being canvassed to this discussion are in violation of Wikipedia's AGF (Assume Good Faith) rule. My reason for changing my username is not for public consumption. It's enough that I notified the group of the change and did not attempt to pose as multiple editors in a single discussion.
Jews in Western Europe are not traditionally linked to Israel? It would seem that the English term, 'Jew' literally means 'from Judea'. "The English word Jew continues Middle English Gyw, Iewe, a loan from Old French giu, earlier juieu, ultimately from Latin Iudaeum. The Latin Iudaeus simply means Judaean, "from the land of Judaea"." [2] Jews have a long, well documented history of being regarded as foreign in Western Europe. "The Jews in Medieval Europe were considered a foreign, unchristian element and lived under different conditions than the rest of the Christian population. The Jews were not allowed to posses land and could not became members of peasantry nor of nobility." [3] European Christians of antiquity regarded Jews as a single people who emigrated to Europe from Israel. These Christians would have regarded the Old Testament as a literal history of the Jewish people. As a rule, European Christians would have referred to the biblical Kingdom of Judah (famously ruled by King David) as the Jewish homeland. This belief served as the basis for restorationist theology which in turn gave rise to Christian Zionism. "Ezra Stiles at Yale was a prominent supporter of restoration of the Jews. In 1808, Asa McFarland, a Presbyterian, voiced the opinion of many that the fall of the Ottoman Empire was imminent and would bring about the restoration of the Jews. One David Austin of New Haven spent his fortune building docks and inns from which the Jews could embark to the Holy Land. In 1825 Mordecai Manuel Noah, a Jew who wanted to found a national home for the Jews on Grand Island in New York as a way station on the way to the holy land, won widespread Christian backing for his project. Likewise, restorationist theology was among the inspirations for the first American missionary activity in the Middle East.[citation needed] Many Christians believed that the return of the Jews to Judea, as prophesied in the Bible, was a necessary preliminary step towards the Second Coming, an attitude now known as Christian Zionism." [6] [4] 07:51, 4 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
Ashkenazim self-identify as being of Middle Eastern descent and are identified as such by ethnographers. "Ashkenazi Jews, also known as Ashkenazic Jews or simply Ashkenazim (Hebrew: אַשְׁכְּנַזִּים, Ashkenazi Hebrew pronunciation: [ˌaʃkəˈnazim], singular: [ˌaʃkəˈnazi], Modern Hebrew: [aʃkenaˈzim], [aʃkenaˈzi]; also יְהוּדֵי אַשְׁכֲּנַז Y'hudey Ashkenaz, "The Jews of Germania"), are a Jewish ethnic division who trace their origins to the Israelite tribes of the Middle East,[10][11][12][13][14][15] sharing many common genes with other Jews since Biblical times.[16] " [5] The genetic mutations Ashkenazim share with Jews of the Levant affirms the shared descent of Ashkenazim and these Jewish ethnic sub-groups. " In August 2012, Dr. Harry Ostrer in his book Legacy: A Genetic History of the Jewish People, summarized his and other work in genetics of the last 20 years, and concluded that all major Jewish groups share a common Middle Eastern origin. Ostrer also claimed to have refuted any large-scale genetic contribution from the Turkic Khazars.[4][unreliable source?]Citing Autosomal DNA studies, Nicholas Wade estimates that "Ashkenazic and Sephardic Jews have roughly 30 percent European ancestry, with most of the rest from the Middle East." He further noticed that "The two communities seem very similar to each other genetically, which is unexpected because they have been separated for so long." Concerning this relationship he points to Atzmon conclusions that "the shared genetic elements suggest that members of any Jewish community are related to one another as closely as are fourth or fifth cousins in a large population, which is about 10 times higher than the relationship between two people chosen at random off the streets of New York City"[5] " [6] Gilad55 ( talk) 18:15, 5 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
Debresser, It has been established that 'descent' and 'proximate descent' are wholly separate terms. One has nothing to do with the other. I will repeat the definition of each term for the benefit of any persons whose confusion on this point has not been resolved. 'Descent' refers to the origin of a people or kin group in terms of ancestry, language, culture and, in some, but all cases, religion. Here are two definitions of descent. Note that neither definition places a statute of limitations on descent: 1) "descent group - a kin group whose members are recruited by one of the principles of descent; e.g., matrilineal, patrilineal, etc. [7] 2) "2the origin or background of a person in terms of family or nationality: American families of Hungarian descent" [8] 'Proximate descent' refers to where a previous generation resided and is a container for individuals and families, not ethnic groups who may reside in more than one country or continent. In the example, "American families of Hungarian descent", "American" is the proximate descent of the families. "Hungarian" is the descent of the families. So, you see, it would not matter if the forefathers of Ashkenazi Jews left Israel 1,000 generations ago. Ashkenazim retain their Middle Eastern descent so long as they retain their Jewish identity. This identity can be ethnic, religious or both. Again, it's time to stop substituting rationalizations for researched, academic arguments. Gilad55 ( talk) 18:15, 5 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
[It seems that "descent" as used in Wikipedia categorization is more like "proximate descent" as you define it. If we were to use these definitions. But, again, we should not use these definitions, at least not the definitions of descent, since by that definition we are all of African descent,]
Again, you fail to grasp the meaning of the term 'descent'. Because Ashkenazim do not identify as African, speak an African language or practice an African culture, we are not of African descent. Again, you are arguing by assertion and substituted a rationalization for an academic argument. Perhaps you're confusing Ashkenazim with Ethiopian Jews? But again, Ethiopian Jews are of African proximate descent, not descent. Also, note that the examples I cited earlier were taken from Wikipedia. Wikipedia describes Jews as being of Middle Eastern descent. Gilad55 ( talk) 21:35, 5 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
Obi-wan, No, Natives could not be categorized as European due to the fact that they self-identify as being indigenous to the Americas. A Native most definitely could play cricket, speak English, drink tea (a practice brought to Europe from Asia, mind you) and work in a colonial bureaucracy (which was the case among Natives living during the era of Westward expansion) and still be entirely Native so long as they self-identified as Native and retained their heritage or culture. If a Native American was born to parents living in Poland, then he or she would retain their Native descent, but could be described as being of European proximate descent. This is an important distinction because not basing descent on proximate descent safeguards the ways in which groups self identify. This distinction also prevents us from breaking up an ethnic group into unnecessary sub-categories. There are now no less than three generations of Ashkenazim living in Israel. If we were to base their descent on proximate descent only, then we would be forced to categorize these Ashkenazim as being of Middle Eastern descent, but not their brethren born to parents who themselves were born outside of the Middle East. Proximate descent can only be used to define where the previous generation of a family resided, not to define descent as a whole. In the term 'American of Armenian descent', 'American' denotes proximate descent whereas 'Armenian' denotes descent - the place in which a group's culture, language and perhaps their religion originated. Please, answer these questions: What is the purpose of attempting to place an ethnic group within a single continental container when that group resides in more than one continent? What does such a container have to do with the concept of descent? Why is it necessary to nullify the Middle Eastern descent of a Jew in order to place him or her in the container 'Jews of [insert nationality] proximate descent'? Gilad55 ( talk) 00:11, 6 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
My argument would apply to persons indigenous to India as well. If they self-identified as Indian and retained their culture then no amount of biscuit eating would alter their descent. Gilad55 ( talk) 00:34, 6 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
Gosh, a lot of ink has been spilled on this!
Frankly, I would tend to agree with Debresser on this issue except for one thing: many anti-Israel activists, especially Palestinians, try to make the claim that most modern Jews, especially Ashkenazim, are not really descended from anyone having the right to the Land of Israel. And I'd frankly not like to encourage that line of thought. So I will proudly claim my distant heritage to the Middle East.
All that said, while much (most?) of the Middle East is in Asia, I'm not sure I care one way or the other about the Asian-ness of the Middle East; it is sufficient to me that I be identified as having Middle Eastern descent.
If people are identified as "of Jewish descent", why does it bother people for that category to roll up into "Asian"? The page itself doesn't include the top category, it only includes the immediate category. I just don't get why everyone is so worked up over this. StevenJ81 ( talk) 21:59, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
@Gilad55 It is not that I "don't get it": I simply disagree with you. Repeating your point over and over will not help in having other editors accept it. @Bus stop We have "of Jewish descent" to distinguish it from "Jewish". For example, for those whose fathers are Jewish, or apostates. @Obiwankenobi I agree with the things you said in this last post. Debresser ( talk) 00:26, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
[@Bus stop We have "of Jewish descent" to distinguish it from "Jewish". For example, for those whose fathers are Jewish, or apostates.]
Debresser, Where does apostasy enter into a discussion of Jewish descent? The Orthodox definition of who is and who is not a Jew has no bearing on a secular discussion of Jewish descent. If I've misunderstood you, then please clarify. Gilad55 ( talk) 01:25, 6 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
Bus stop, Editors are arguing that Jews born to parents who themselves were born outside the Middle East should be excluded from the category 'groups of Asian descent'. These editors are arguing that descent should be defined by where one's parents were born rather than by where one's culture and ethnic group originated. These editors are asserting that Ashkenazi Jews should not be described as being of Middle Eastern (Asian) descent because their Jewish forefathers left Israel and settled in Eastern and Western Europe. According to their logic, black Americans are not of African descent. Gilad55 ( talk) 03:27, 6 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
[ The Jewish identity is so much more than a deriviate of geography.]
This statement is true only in the most subjective sense of the term 'Jewish identity'. Jewish identity is intimately linked to Israel in every other possible sense. "Jewish identity is firmly intertwined with Jewish ancestry dating back to the historical Kingdom of Israel, which was largely depopulated by the Roman Empire c. first century AD, leading to what is known as today as the Jewish Diaspora." [9] "For the past 3,000 years there was always a Jewish presence in the Holy Land. Israel is at the core of Jewish identity and peoplehood; the land shapes the Jews' self image and character as a community...." [10] A portion of the Jewish identity developed in the diaspora, but even then Eretz Yisrael was the focus of Jewish cultural and religious practices. Also, the largest single Jewish community today exists in Israel, so an assertion that Jewish identity and Israel are separable is certainly not a position I would choose to defend. Gilad55 ( talk) 23:35, 6 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
Obi-Wan, By all means, remove African Americans from the category 'persons of African descent'. A swarm of African American Studies majors will descend on you as swiftly as a plague from Exodus. That discussion will make this one look like old friends talking over a few drinks. Gilad55 ( talk) 23:43, 6 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
Obi-Wan, If a person traces their ancestry or kin group to Africa, then that person is of African descent. If a recent immigrant from Nigeria wishes to be identified first as a Nigerian American, then that identifier would not conflict in any way with a secondary identifier of 'African descent'. It's not up to Wikipedia to distinguish between the descendants of African slaves brought to the American colonies and the pre-American Civil War US and recent immigrants from Nigeria, the Sudan or Ethiopia. If such a distinction were made by one of these communities or a third party, then Wikipedia could fulfill its role as an encyclopedia and make an entry of the distinction. Gilad55 ( talk) 00:19, 7 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
Yes, proximate descent applies to individuals. Descent applies to groups. A German Jew is a person of German national proximate descent, yet, as a member of a Jewish ethnic group, he or she is also a person of Middle Eastern descent. There's no conflict between the two identifiers. Gilad55 ( talk) 00:59, 7 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
Wow, what a mess. In any case I'd like to throw my hat in and agree that Jews should be classified as Middle Eastern. It makes the most sense to me. Salmonpate ( talk) 02:04, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
Yes, ethnic Jews should be classified as a group or nation of Middle Eastern descent. Feel free to classify individuals who are not of Middle Eastern descent, but who convert to Judaism as not being of Middle Eastern descent. Ethnic Jews are, as the term 'ethnic Jew' suggests, an ethnic group. Judaism is a religion. An Irish Catholic who converts to Judaism would not cease to be a person of Western European descent. Conversely, an observant ethnic Jew who suddenly converts to Catholicism would remain an ethnic Jew and thus a person of Middle Eastern descent. Please, keep in mind that we are discussing ethnicity and descent, not religious affiliation. 67.182.154.25 ( talk) 06:20, 10 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
Bus stop, The term 'ethnic Jew' refers to a person born to any one of several Jewish ethnic groups. "Jewish ethnic divisions refers to a number of distinctive communities within the world's ethnically Jewish population. Although considered one single self-identifying ethnicity, there are distinctive ethnic divisions among Jews, most of which are primarily the result of geographic branching from an originating Israelite population, and subsequent independent evolutions.[1]" [11] Gilad55 ( talk) 04:57, 11 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
How would you refer to a Jew who is a member of an ethnic group? Ashkenazim, Mizrahim, Sephardim, etc. are all defined as ethnic sub-groups of the Jewish nation. If a Wikipedia article includes references then it is admissible as a source in this discussion. Are you denying there is such a thing as Jewish ethnicity? If you are, then you would be arguing by assertion. I use the term 'ethnic Jew' to differentiate between a person who is born into an ethnically Jewish family that traces its roots to Israel and a person who observes the Jewish faith, but has no Jewish blood and who was born into a family that traces its roots to some place other than Israel. I made the distinction for the benefit of those who appear to have difficulty separating the Jewish nation from Judaism; which is a religious faith open to non-Jews. This distinction is not controversial among Jews. Reform Judaism and similar modern Jewish religious movements would consider a person who converts to Judaism, but who was not Jewish according to Halachic law before their conversion, to be a Jew. However, an ethnographer would not lump a person with no Jewish ancestry into the same ethnic category as a Mizrahi Jew just because the two share a religious belief system. Jews are a people or nation first. This is why the bar for conversion is high (it takes an average of five years of study with a Rabbi to successfully convert). One does not simply show up to shul and call him or herself a Jew. Gilad55 ( talk) 07:46, 11 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
When one is a member of an ethnic group, one can be referred to as 'ethnic'. "What, then, are the Jews? I’d argue they are an “ethnic community,” in the definition used by political scientists, sociologists, and anthropologists. Ethnicity is not about physical characteristics or genetic ancestry, though that can be part of it. Rather, it incorporates a shared history and experiences, common territorial affiliation, similar cultural traditions and practices, and so on—in short, a sense of belonging to one’s own group." [12] The following is the Oxford definition of 'ethnic group' (Ashkenazim, Sephardim, Mizrahim, etc. are defined as ethnic groups belonging to the Jewish nation): "of or relating to a population subgroup (within a larger or dominant national or cultural group) with a common national or cultural tradition:...of or relating to national and cultural origins:...denoting origin by birth or descent rather than by present nationality: ethnic Albanians in Kosovo" [13] A member of the ethnic Ashkenazi Jewish community can be referred to as 'ethnically Ashkenazi' or as an 'ethnic Ashkenazi Jew'. This is basic ethnographical parlance. 67.182.154.25 ( talk) 18:28, 12 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
Please note that Oxford defines ethnicity and descent as being independent of present nationality. One's present nationality does not determine one's descent. Gilad55 ( talk) 18:37, 12 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
Bus stop, Please, explain how your critique of the term pertains to the subject of this thread; which is A) whether Ashkenazim should be categorized as an ethnic group of Middle Eastern descent by Wikipedia and B) whether Wikipedia is justified in deviating from norms of categorizing descent. If you believe the term 'Jewish ethnicity' is more appropriate than 'ethnic Jew', then use the term you're most comfortable with. I'd rather not quibble. The outcome of our discussion of Jewish ethnicity will not determine the reality that every Jew is member of their respective ethnicity and the Jewish nation as a whole. The Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines anti-Semitism as "hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group". Please, note the inclusion of "ethnic group" in the Merriam-Webster definition. It will be the last source I provide on the subject of whether Jews are considered an ethnicity.
[14]
Gilad55 (
talk) 05:34, 13 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
Our roots are middle eastern so I beleive ethnic Jews belong there.
Crystalfile (
talk)
13:57, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
I agree with most of what you say Gilad, but I have two problems. 1) Jews who convert are considered fully Jewish, although they would (obviously) be excluded from "People of Jewish descent" or Jewish ethnic divisions like Ashkenazim and Sephardim. 2) You linked to a blog at Times of Israel. Blogs and partisan sources are not considered reliable sources here. Evildoer187 ( talk) 14:26, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
We are in agreement. Still, how does a discussion of Jewish ethnicity pertain to the subject of this thread? Have we run out of arguments? Gilad55 ( talk) 14:48, 13 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
So, we are still at a stalemate, only some people have joined the conversation while others (like myself), have bowed out? Should this go to an RfC? I have a feeling the result might also be non-consensus.
I'd just like to remind the latecomers that the original question regarded whether people who "are of Jewish descent" should be identified as Asian. Examples would be individuals of German-Jewish descent (who are tagged with German descent and Jewish descent) and Mexican Jews (who would be categorized as being of Mexican descent and Jewish descent). It was not specifically about Ashkenazi Jews or the Middle East. It was about people, who identify not as "being Jewish" but as "being of Jewish descent" (which might be one great-grandfather), people who specifically who do not live in Southwest Asia that includes the Middle East. Should these individuals who see some family link to Judaism in their family past be placed in a "of Asian descent" category.
That is the only question. It's not about ethnic or religious identity because there is no question that all of these people are of Jewish descent. It's not "taking away" anything. It's not about who is Jewish or some political issue. It's simply that Wikipedia has to be careful about WP:OVERCAT and have to be selective about what categories we assign to people and groups. If we were to assign every single aspect of a profile to a category, articles would be laden with 20 or 30 categories. Ethnicity is just one aspect of a person, there are other categories that they belong to. Liz Read! Talk! 05:04, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
I feel this discussion was exhaustive enough and no need to open an Rfc. The result is: no consensus for change. Debresser ( talk) 17:35, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
How do you propose to organize an ethnicity like Ashkenazi by nationality? First you were discussing descent and then nationality. My arguments have been factual, not political. There is no statute of limitations on descent. You can organize individuals by proximate descent, but not ethnic groups. This is basic ethnography. Deviating from norms of categorization invites contradiction. Gilad55 ( talk) 20:15, 14 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
Why this preoccupation with converts to Judaism? Persons of Jewish descent are persons who belong to a Jewish ethnic group and who possess Jewish ancestry. We have an agreement between myself and Evildoer that descent and Judaism are unrelated. If an individual of Pacific Islander descent converted to Judaism, then he or she would remain a Pacific Island Native thereafter. Moreover, the category 'of Jewish descent' applies to groups, not individuals. The sentiment that Jews are an invented people who do not descend from Israel is entirely anti-Semitic. If Wikipedia eliminates the category 'of Jewish descent' or eliminates Jews from the category 'of Asian descent', then Wikipedia will have engaged in Merriam-Webster's definition of an anti-Semitic act by demonstrating hostility toward Jews as an ethnic group. Gilad55 ( talk) 17:51, 15 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
Re-reading through the entire thread and all of the arbitrary breaks, it would seem that consensus is split down the middle. I am also opposed to deleting "People of Jewish descent" category. Just add it to the relevant categories and be done with it, imo. It's really rather comical how people are getting so upset over this. Evildoer187 ( talk) 21:48, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
Yes, just add the relevant categories and be done with it. The convert argument is fallacious. It wrongly assumes that converts to Judaism exist in large numbers and constitute recognizable portions of the Jewish ethnic groups whose descent we are discussing. Wikipedia is either an encyclopedic source of knowledge whose editors record facts as agreed upon in other sources or it is an opinion page. It cannot be both. Gilad55 ( talk) 22:22, 15 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
Bus stop, If that person is a member of a Jewish ethnic group that traces its origins to the Levant, then yes, that person belongs in the category 'of Jewish descent'. Please, focus on the issue at hand. We are discussing the categorization of groups, not individuals. Gilad55 ( talk) 07:26, 16 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
Liz, If you review the thread, you will find editors discussing individuals and groups as if the two could be approached as a single subject. Editors argued that proximate descent (nationality) nullify descent and used this as a justification for removing Jews living outside the Levant from the category 'of Jewish descent'. Moreover, editors conflated descent and proximate descent. The two are separate terms that serve separate purposes. I'm amazed that persons who do not know this feel qualified to edit subjects related to ethnography. Gilad55 ( talk) 07:32, 17 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
Bus stop, Yes, Jews are a nation. Judaism is a religion. One's identification with the Jewish faith does not determine one's ethnicity; though Judaism and Jewish ethnicity do co-occur. I sincerely congratulate you for understanding this. Gilad55 ( talk) 07:41, 17 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
I'm inclined to agree with Gilad and the others. Recent converts fall outside the scope of this discussion, and the Middle Eastern descent of Jews is extensively documented. Except maybe a tiny minority that is, but it bears repeating that not all members of a nation or ethnic group necessarily share the same blood, but we don't make these distinctions in any other case. Ankh. Morpork 18:04, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
Debresser, We are discussing descent in terms of culture, religion and defined ancestry. The African origins argument is a very poor wedge. That ancestry is likely, yet theoretical. The Middle Eastern ancestry of Jews living outside the Levant is a matter of agreed upon histories, genetics, self-identification and the living culture of these Jews. In other words, the Middle Eastern ancestry of galut Jews is not theoretical. 67.182.154.25 (talk) 16:47, 18 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
So long as the term 'descent' is used properly and not conflated with proximate descent, I would not be opposed to requiring a source. That source could be as simple as one in which an individual declares his or her ethnicity or refers to their culture. Gilad55 ( talk) 17:43, 19 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
I'd like to remind everyone again of the definition of the term 'descent'. "the origin or background of a person in terms of family or nationality: American families of Hungarian descent" [1] Please note that descent is not acquired through participation in a nation's culture or religion. Descent is a matter of lineage. The children of non-Jewish converts to Judaism would inherit the descent of their parents. If their parents are Pacific Islanders, then they would be born persons of Pacific Island descent regardless of their parents' religious faith. This is simple logic. Gilad55 ( talk) 07:36, 21 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
Addendum: In the example I just provided, the children of these parents should be categorized as 'of Jewish descent' if their parents converted before their births and raised them in a Jewish household. Being Pacific Islanders, these children should not be included in the category 'of Middle Eastern descent'. I hope this is not too confusing for those of you who have difficulty separating Judaism from Jews as organized into ethnic groups (Mizrahi, Sephardi, Ashkenazi, etc.). Converts who were not Jewish before conversion are considered fully Jewish afterward. However, conversion does not confer Middle Eastern descent upon persons whose ancestors all come from elsewhere. Gilad55 ( talk) 17:10, 21 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
Bus stop, There are many Jews who converted to Judaism after being raised in non-observant homes. In fact, many converts are ethnically Jewish. They convert as a means of connecting to their Jewish heritage. Gilad55 ( talk) 19:36, 21 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
I will admit, education or acclimation are better words than conversion. Conversion implies no prior relationship to the Jewish nation. I stand by my statement, "education is a precondition of participation in Jewish religious life." Even if one only knows the Shema in Hebrew by heart, that is an example of the education to which I am referring. I never asserted that a person must be observant to be considered fully Jewish. Seems someone is creating a straw man. Gilad55 ( talk) 02:48, 25 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
@ Liz: May I ask a stupid question?
You said: "If we were to assign every single aspect of a profile to a category, articles would be laden with 20 or 30 categories." Just wondering why this would be a problem and to whom? X Ottawahitech ( talk) 14:22, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
I agree with Bus stop. More to the point, efforts to recategorize Jews, whether individually or in groups, as persons of non-Middle Eastern descent demonstrates POV pushing that is not in keeping with Wikipedia's standards for editing articles. Reliable sources describe Jews as originating in the Levant. One could report other theories and provide citations for those theories, but one could not assert that the descent of Jews is considered as other than Middle Eastern by the world at large. Gilad55 ( talk) 07:12, 21 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 25 | ← | Archive 30 | Archive 31 | Archive 32 | Archive 33 | Archive 34 | Archive 35 |
I'm posting this to gauge consensus for some categorization that's been/being done.
I'd also argue that individuals of Jewish descent in Australia, South and North America also would not have thought of themselves as Asian but right now this question is limited to Europeans of Jewish descent. As an aside, most of the individuals assigned to these categories are from 17th-21st centuries.
I think both Solar-Wind and I will abide whatever the iconsensus is here. Your opinions are welcomed! Liz Read! Talk! 18:47, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
First, Evildoer187 is referring to genetic studies contributed to equally by dozens of researchers based in institutions like Johns Hopkins and Stanford. These studies found that Ashkenazim share more genes (mitochondrial DNA) with other Jewish groups than than they do with non-Jewish groups. These studies put to rest the hypothesis that Ashkenazim are not genetically linked to other groups of Middle Eastern descent.< http://www.ashg.org/2013meeting/abstracts/fulltext/f130123130.htm> Secondly, the paternal ancestors of the Ashkenazim left the Middle East as early as 70 AD and as late as the early Middle Ages. < /info/en/?search=Jewish_history> So, an arguments against defining Ashkenazim as being of Asian descent that is based on an assertion that many of our pre-historic ancestors lived in Asia doesn't make much sense. The emigration from Asia that created the Ashkenazim is far from pre-historic. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 06:21, 23 November 2013 (UTC)Garrettrutledge55
Thanks for the comments,
Obi-Wan Kenobi and
Cullen328. I should also say that:
Liz Read! Talk! 19:41, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
As a Jew, I am compelled to point out that persons who would deny that all Jews are of Asian descent are engaging in imperialistic thinking. Many Jews self-identify as being of Middle Eastern (Asian) descent. If certain Ashkenazi Jews appear more European than Asian, that is because they are multi-ethnic; having paternal ancestors who emigrated from the Middle East to the European continent where they married European women who themselves converted to their husbands' religion. Genetic studies of contemporary Ashkenazim prove that this was the case. Using the argument that "we all descend from Africa" to deny any ethnicity their right to identify their place of origin is ethically and anthropologically incorrect. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 17:12, 22 November 2013 (UTC)Garrettrutledge55
Thanks for all of the participation in this question, I'm satisfied with the response and don't think this needs to move to an RFC. I did leave "of Asian descent" categories in geographically close cases such as Category:Egyptian people of Jewish descent and Category:Turkish people of Jewish descent that are close to the Middle East.
Interestingly, Jewish people are not included in Category:Russian people of Asian descent where, since Russia is located in Asia, a legitimate case could be made that they are, technically, of Asian descent even if they are primarily European in heritage, culture and influence. Liz Read! Talk! 20:09, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
I can see why you decided to remove "Americans of Asian descent" from the "American Ashkenazi Jews" cat, but removing "Middle Eastern people" and whatnot from the main "Ashkenazi Jews" category is just....well, wrong. Ashkenazi Jews did arrive to Europe from Asia/the Middle East. It's equally absurd when Sephardi Jews and Roma have not been removed. Evildoer187 ( talk) 23:44, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
I wish to reiterate my opposition to the blanket categorization of all Jews as bring of Asian descent. There have been established Jewish comunities in Europe and North Africa for well over 2,000 years. Intermarriage and conversion have affected such communities. Given what we now know of human origins, all humans have African origins and all human communities other than sub-Saharan African communities have Asian origins. Possibly speaking Hebrew as evidence of Asian origin is absurd. Both of my sons speak some Hebrew but this is the result of American teaching not ancestors from 1500 years ago. If we have geneological information indicating specific ancestry of a specific person in a specific Asian community, then fine. But European Jews in general are no more "Asian" in origin than are Hungarians or Romanians or Maltese. Many Jews today are the product of conversion and I have non-Jewish Irish, English, Norwegian and Swedish ancestry. Back when the Ashkenazi ancestors left "Asia" for "Europe", the modern concept of the continents with the Ural Mountains neatly separating Europe from Asia wasn't universally accepted. And today, a notion of an "Asian" person that combines Turks with Japanese, while excluding Greeks and Egyptians on the basis of continental boundaries is simply absurd. This is tendentious editing if it continues. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 07:50, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
This is incorrect. There is no statute of limitations on descent. At no time has an academic categorization of descent been based on recent history only. Descent is based on a group's place of origin as evidenced by origin of culture, genetics and known paths of emigration. This discussion has become non-academic. Until 50 years ago, Ashkenazim were regarded as emigrants to Europe and were never confused with groups of entirely European descent. The recent drive to categorize Ashkenazim as being of European descent began with the creation of the State of Israel in 1948. Many of the new state's founders were Ashkenazi Jews who based their claim to self-determination in Israel on being aboriginal to the Land of Israel formerly known as the British Mandate of Palestine. Since then, opponents of Jewish nationalism have been working hard to counter the argument for the Asian origin of Jews whose ancestors emigrated to all parts of the European continent from nations in the Middle East. When we counter this counter-argument and return Ashkenazim to the category of Persons of Asian Descent, we are, in fact, simplifying the method of categorization and eliminating the contradictions that arise from allowing politics to determine scientific methodology. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 22:44, 24 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
Debresser, As an Ashkenazi Jew, I am stating that Ashkenazim do, in fact, self-identify as being of Middle Eastern descent. We are multi-ethnic and, in some parts of Europe and North America, are more socially mainstreamed than any other Jewish group in the diaspora (all Jews living outside the Land of Israel). If asked to tick a box on an EOE form, we would almost certainly not mark 'Asian/Pacific Islander' due to the fact that the purpose of the form is to divide people according to their racial phenotype, not identify their continent of origin. I've known Latinos to tick the 'Caucasian' box because they are mestizo or bi-racial so appear as Caucasian as Ted Cruz. Does this mean they would not identify as Latino in some other milieu? Certainly not. If you were to ask ten Ashkenazi Jews where our paternal Jewish ancestors came from, nine would say, the Land of Israel. Those Jews would say, the Land of Israel because the thread connecting the past, which is our place of origin, to the present, which is wherever we find ourselves, is the basis of our culture. In that milieu, we always self-identify as being of Middle Eastern origin. I hope my explanation improves your cultural sensitivity to this issue. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 19:08, 25 November 2013 (UTC)Garrettrutledge55 67.182.154.25 ( talk) 07:55, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
Debresser, The Land of Israel is found in the Middle East. In genealogical terms, descent refers to parentage or a single generation of a family. In ethnographical terms, descent refers to the absolute origin of an ethnic group or people. I did not use myself as a proof. Rather, I pointed out that all Jews point to the Land of Israel as their place of origin. If you are a Jew and you do not identify the Land of Israel as the absolute place of origin of the Jewish people, then your view is a deviation from the norm. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 19:08, 25 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Garrettrutledge55 ( talk • contribs) 16:59, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
I am somewhat concerned by the automatic assumption that the presence of lighter skin or different eye color automatically brands one as being more European or not. If one reads Thor Heyerdal's account of Easter Island, Aku Aku, he notes that early discoverers of this clearly remote and genetically isolated island were surprised to find a population that seemed to have both the expected darker colored Pacific Island native as well as lighter skinned, European looking, natives from within the same peoples. It is clearly not accurate to look at a population of people and therefore exclaim that the color of their skin is automatically proof of a high percentage of intermarriage. It is also reasonable to consider that of a population who moved from the Middle East to Europe that the lighter skinned people were seen as more attractive, which is shown to bring greater acceptance and even success (more attractive people are more successful or so studies suggest). While those forces may not have been as active 1,000 years ago, there may still have been a social pressure which brought marital success to those of the group who had more Europoid features, which would then slowly shift the coloring of the group as a whole.
Jews trace their heritage to the Middle East, culturally and genetically. An interesting study of the "priest" gene among Jewish communities found similarities among those who have that heritage, both among Sepharadi and Ashkenazi communities < http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/07/980714071409.htm>. Since the priest heritage is passed paternally, the presence of this gene even among Europoid looking Ashkenazi Jews gives us good reason to wonder about the amount of intermarriage which is required to create a certain appearance. Artstop ( talk) 18:28, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
I would like to reiterate one of the points made in here earlier, that we need to be mindful of the possibility of inadvertently reinforcing or encouraging antisemitism or antisemitic politics. More specifically, the idea that modern Jews are really just ethnic Germans or Poles or whatever who converted to Judaism, and who don't have any real ties, roots, or connection to the Middle East, and thus do not "belong" there. Neglecting to mention or acknowledge the Middle Eastern origins and identity of Jews could prove to be dangerous, and might just end up complicating things further. Evildoer187 ( talk) 19:11, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
Jewish people may self identify as Ashkenazi or Sepharadi, but that is far more to do with identifying the form of prayers which they are using, and less (if anything) about their long-term ethnic heritage. For example, while Sepharadi initially refers to those Jews who went to Spain (Sepharad in Hebrew), it has come to refer to all the Jewish communities which remained in the East,in Egypt, Iraq, Libya, Lebanon, and even within the boundaries of what is now Israel. Both groups identify as "Jewish", which is tied to the common heritage that both share of coming from the Middle East. That some people may not identify themselves as such is more about their ignorance of their heritage than not. The proper classification for the descent of the Jews should be Middle Eastern. Artstop ( talk) 19:27, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
I agree that we are Middle Eastern regardless of whether or not were Sephardi, Ashkenazi, Mizrahi, Beta Israel, Karaites etc. The only differences are the cultures our ancestors were raised around and how it influenced their Judaism. Hence why Jews can look different, act different and think differently from one another. I as an Ashkenazi don't have the same cultural similarities than that of a Jew from Ethiopia, Tunisia, India or Iran. But Ashkenazi Jews are also different from one another depending on the country they lived in at the time. French Jews are different than Russian Jews who are different than German Jews who are different than Danish Jews and so on. Although French Jewry is more Sephardi now, it was once mostly Ashkenazi which is the French Jewry I was raised in on my mothers side. But with all that said, we are still from the Middle East originally. It doesn't how far back our ancestry goes, we are still a Semitic people who originated from that area. Plus, you create a slippery slope when you start to begin questioning how far it should go before someone can be considered authentically middle eastern 2605:E000:5FC0:21:954:941D:1CC4:B51F (talk) 19:53, 25 November 2013 (UTC) JVBcynical85 ( talk) 19:55, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
for example, but the DNA studies I linked to above are also being ignored. The numerous articles e.g. on the most recent study report thatThere had been some evidence of mass conversions, especially of women, to Judaism throughout the Mediterranean in the past, the authors wrote in the study. That resulted in about 6 million citizens, or a tenth of the Roman population, who were Jewish. Bloomberg
Or"Another recent study, also based on [mtDNA], found that a mixture of European ancestries ranged from 30 percent to 60 percent among Ashkenazi and Sephardi populations, with Northern Italians showing the greatest [genetic] proximity to Jews of any living group." NYT
The Ashkenazi are the most common Jewish ethnic division. Previous efforts to trace origins of Ashkenazi Jews have been spotty and controversial, the authors wrote. The latest research used a larger database than in previous attempts, allowing them to unravel the entire mitochondrial genomes. Bloomberg
The explanation for the presence of European Y-chromosomes in Ashkenazi DNA is simple and supported by the sampling of a wide swath of Ashkenazi DNA that has been compared to samples taken from other Jewish groups. The explanation: Jewish men emigrated in substantial numbers to Europe from the Middle East. After reaching Europe, these men married and had children with European women. Those women became members of the communities they married into. Over time, those communities grew and evolved and now constitute a unique group known as Ashkenazi Jews. < http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/10/131008112539.htm> The findings of this and other studies put to rest the hypothesis that Ashkenazim descend from the Caucuses and were once citizens of some Eastern European kingdom now lost to antiquity. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 04:32, 26 November 2013 (UTC)Garrettrutledge55
I tend to agree that Jews should be classified under Middle Eastern/Asian descent. Jewish identity certainly originates there, and while certain people will have more Middle Eastern/Asian descent than others, it's virtually impossible to know beyond a shadow of a doubt to what extent the ancestry of either individual Jews or entire Jewish groups (Ashkenazi, for example) originate in Asia, Europe or elsewhere. While of course there's many theories (based largely on circumstantial evidence), and DNA studies that support either the European or the Asian hypotheses, I think that since we'll never know the answers with complete confidence, it's fair to recognize what most Jewish people believe about their identities, since there's really not much in the way of compelling evidence to the contrary. Kitty ( talk) 05:28, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
Kitty1983, the evidence tells us that Ashkenazim are multi-ethnic, yet have more in common genetically with other Jewish groups than they do with non-Jewish groups. Roughly 40% of Ashkenazi DNA is of European origin while the remaining 60% is of Middle Eastern origin. Not acknowledging the Asian descent of Ashkenazi Jews makes zero sense. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 06:40, 26 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
This comment belong to a sub-thread above, but because it contains new arguments, I choose to put it at the current bottom of this discussion. @Garrettrutledge55. Yes, the Land of Israel is in the Middle East. So? Category:People of German descent is in Category:People of European descent. That doesn't mean that all "German" categories and articles also receive a "European" one. Just the main German category. And there is one great difference: "Jewish" is not originated in geography like "German" e.g.! "Jewish" is an ethno-religious group, with proselytes from some 40 centuries of religious Jewish history! Those proselytes are not all from Israel, or even the Middle East. By the way, if anything, the Jewish people is originated in Egypt ( The Exodus is cited in the Bible as the cradle of the Jewish people). And the first Jew was from Iraq. Still, which Jew calls himself Egyptian or Iraqi?! It just doesn't work that way. Debresser ( talk) 08:40, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
Debresser, Did you just cite the bible as evidence? Did you just assert that a blood quantum nullifies the indigeny of ethnic Jews to the Land of Israel? First, there is evidence which suggests that the Hebrew and Canaanite nations merged and that elements of Canaanite culture and religion mingled with Hebrew monotheism. It is believed that the Hebrew name for G-d, Yahweh or YHVH is of Canaanite origin. Secondly, racial purity has no place in a discussion about ethnicity or indigeny. Multi-ethnic or mestizo South American Natives are no less indigenous to the American continent than Natives living in closed communities who have no European ancestry. The same is true of multi-ethnic Jews. Please limit your arguments to what can be deemed scientific and/or rational. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 17:16, 26 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
Can we stop talking about genetics please? Especially these discussions of racial purity as a determining factor for ethnicity and descent. That isn't what we're discussing at all. In any case, Jews belong in the Middle East/Asian because Jews are BY DEFINITION an ethnic/national group of Middle Eastern descent. This isn't rocket science. Evildoer187 ( talk) 18:30, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
Debresser, The bible is admissible as evidence in a discussion of theology or faith. We are discussing the descent of Ashkenazi Jewry. You argued that Jews, in general, originated in Egypt then cited the bible as evidence. Also, descent in ethnographical terms is not defined by "proximate descent", or where a group resided recently. Descent is defined by the place or places in which a group originated. If this were not true, then Latinos residing in the Americas could not claim European descent. I agree that we should set aside genetics for the time being. Let's get back to basics. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 20:22, 26 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
[If someone identifies as a Romani-American from Hungary, for example, they are not only acknowledging that they are Hungarian, but that they are Romani. Romanis are an ethnic group/nationality of Indian descent, therefore including them under Asian descent alongside European descent would be reasonable. American people of Jewish descent would function in the same way, for the most part.]
Here, Evildoer187 makes an ethnographically correct argument. If descent was determined in proximate terms only then the Romani would be barred from the category of Ethnic Groups of Asian Descent. Romani identity and culture originated in South Asia and has been maintained by the Romani in their diaspora. This makes the Romani an ethnicity that can claim a single place of origin regardless of where they emigrate to. This would cease to be true if emigration was followed by assimilation and a loss of Romani cultural identity. The same is true of Jews. Our identity and culture originated in the Middle East and has been maintained in our diaspora. Continuity of cultural identity is the primary determinant of ethnic origin, not proximate descent or racial purity. Jews define the Land of Israel as the birthplace of Jewish identity and culture. Therefore, Jews are ethnically Middle Eastern. All I am asking is that you apply the same standards of ethnic origin to Jews that you would apply to the Romani or any other ethnic group. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 00:45, 27 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
An anonymous IP editor at Talk:John_Schlossberg#Jewish Category (relative of John F. Kennedy) is arguing that Schlossberg, whose father is a Ukrainian Jew, should not be included in the Category:American people of Ukrainian-Jewish descent because Schlossberg's father is not from the Middle East, and therefore is not of Jewish descent. -- Green Cardamom ( talk) 19:17, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
I would like to reiterate the point that a majority of Jews self-identify as being of Middle Eastern (Asian) descent. Identifying Ashkenazim as 'European Jews' does not nullify their Asian origins. Rather, this identifier merely places them within a sub-category of Asian Jewry. Despite their European appearance, Ashkenazi Jews share more genes with other Jewish groups than they do with non-Jewish groups. If I'm not mistaken, there are participants in this discussion who suggest that Ashkenazim be removed from the Asian category simply because they have longstanding residence in Europe. According to this logic, I can claim to be a Native American simply because my family has a longstanding residence in North America and be removed from any category other than 'Indigenous American'. Worse, there are some in this discussion who are arguing for a dissolution of separate racial categories due to the African origin of our common human ancestors. This logic is ethnographically incorrect. Please, come to your senses. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 08:25, 24 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
Cullen, Take it from a Jewish Studies major, Judaism is a religion. Jews are an ethnicity. When a Jew falls away from the faith, he or she remains a Jew. A person can convert to Judaism, but does not become ethnically Jewish in the process. Every ethnic Jew can, in fact, trace their roots to the Middle East. In the case of Ashkenazim, we can trace our roots to both Europe and the Middle East; though the bulk of our genome is of Middle Eastern origin.
My advice to everyone: keep it simple. Good taxonomy (the science of classifying things and concepts) begins with simple questions. We can fuss over dubious histories and theories or we can examine facts. It is a fact that Ashkenazi Jews share more mitochondrial DNA with other Jewish groups than they do with non-Jewish groups. It is a fact that Ashkenazi Jews possess an oral history that traces their roots to the Land of Israel; which is to say, the Middle East. Good taxonomy demands that Ashkenazim be given the dual classification of being a people of both Asian and European descent. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 16:45, 26 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
@174.226.1.204, you are comparing a national/ethnic group to an openly proselytizing religion. So yes, apples to oranges. Evildoer187 ( talk) 18:24, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
Obi-Wan, Allow me to clarify. Judaism is a religion. Jews are an ethnic group. Mere conversion to Judaism does not make one ethnically Jewish. If one converted to Judaism and married into the tribe, then a family tie would exist. One would then be ethnically Jewish if one was not so before marriage. Non-Jews often make assumptions about Jews and Judaism based on comparisons made between Christianity and Judaism. Non-Jews reason that If one becomes a Christian when one converts to Christianity then the same must be true of persons who convert to Judaism. When one converts to Judaism one joins a community of faith, but does not necessarily join the ethnic Jewish community. For Jews, ethnic bonds are determined by family , not religious affiliation. This is true of ethnicity in general. An ethnic group may even embrace more than one religion. I hope my explanation was helpful. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 20:51, 26 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
Obi-Wan, This is a matter of Jewish culture and tradition, not personal judgement. Again, you're confusing rituals and beliefs with blood and family ties. We did not consider ourselves into being. We are either born or marry into the tribe. Because we are an ethnicity, a Jew can leave the faith or marry a non-Jew and remain as Jewish as the day he or she was mitzvahed. If you won't take my word for it, then ask a Rabbi or read this book: < http://www.amazon.com/Jewish-Literacy-Important-Religion-History/dp/0688085067> Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 01:07, 27 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
I think it is time to close both these two discussions: two editors disagree with the rest of the world. They should stop editing Wikipedia with edits that go against consensus. Debresser ( talk) 01:45, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
[Will never convince educated people and most here that Jews as a people and converts to Judaism should be classified as Middle Eastern. There was a time that people though that Japanese-Jewish where part of the ten lost tribes of Israel...but we have learned alot since then and have come to discover that not all Jews trace there heritage directly to the middle east. Need people to stop trying to put a genetic spin on all Jews and see that there is only a common religion not a common ancestor to all Jews.]
Moxy, First, It is against Wikipedia policy to assert that an opposing opinion is uneducated. Secondly, the majority view (not in this discussion, but in the real world, obviously) is that Jews originated in the Land of Israel. Yes, people have converted to the faith in the diaspora, yet these persons make up only a part, not the whole of Jewish ancestry in the diaspora. Your assertion that Jews share a common religion, but no common Middle Eastern ancestors is not only factually incorrect, it is anti-Semitic. Allow me to explain why. Jewish identity is based, in part, on lineage. Some of us may self-identify as American or European Jews, but we trace our roots back to the Land of Israel. This was especially true of Russian Jews at the turn of the last century. Those Jews built shtetls (self-contained Jewish communities) and maintained traditions that can be traced to medieval Palestine. When you argue that Jews are not an ethnicity, you are attacking the belief that we are the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and the original tribes of Israel. Even if the story of Abraham and his offspring is not objectively true, it is objectively true that Jews began to appear in Europe during periods of Jewish mass exodus from the Land of Israel. Moreover, the argument that Jews are an invented people is only given by anti-Semites in an effort to accomplish through psychological warfare what they could not accomplish through murder and genocide. I am not calling you an anti-Semite, but am encouraging you to consider the source of the argument you've chosen. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 20:29, 28 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55\
Moxy, A geneticist would not discount the ethnicity of a group or nullify ethnic origin based on occurrences of intermarriage or multi-ethnicity. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 21:24, 28 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
A taxonomist would simply classify a multi-ethnic group as having more than one point of geographic origin. I'm having a heckuvah time sussing out why this concept is so difficult for some to grasp. Taxonomy does not demand that every thing or concept be placed in a single category. This is the stuff of basic science. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 21:31, 28 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
From Wikipedia:
Paternal lineage, Y chromosome[edit]
In 1992 G. Lucotte and F. David were the first genetic researchers to have documented a common paternal genetic heritage between Sephardi and Ashkenazi Jews.[21][22] In 1993, A. S. Santachiara Benerecetti, et al. have suggested the Middle Eastern origin of Jewish paternal lineages.[23] In 2000, M. Hammer, et al. conducted a study on 1371 men and definitively established that part of the paternal gene pool of Jewish communities in Europe, North Africa and Middle East came from a common Middle East ancestral population. They suggested that most Jewish communities in the Diaspora remained relatively isolated and endogamous compared to non-Jewish neighbor populations.[2][12][24] < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews> Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 21:36, 28 November 2013 (UTC)Garrettrutledge55
There's more where that came from. It's time to show. Telling won't work on you lot, obviously. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 21:45, 28 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
European female ancestry is not being ignored. That ancestry does not nullify the Jewish male ancestry of Ashkenazim. Ashkenazi Jews are multi-ethnic. We are of both Middle Eastern and European descent. We belong under both categories of descent. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 21:49, 28 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
The argument for Ashkenazi Middle Eastern ancestry does not rely upon "some genetic link". Multiple studies suggest that Ashkenazim share more genes (or specific genetic mutations) with other Jewish groups than they do with non-Jewish groups. This has become a matter of scientific consensus. From Wikipedia: [Two studies by Nebel et al. in 2001 and 2005, based on Y chromosome polymorphic markers, showed that Ashkenazi Jews are more closely related to other Jewish and Middle Eastern groups than to their host populations in Europe (defined in the using Eastern European, German, and French Rhine Valley populations)]. < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews> Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 18:44, 29 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
Add to that the fact that Ashkenazi Jewish culture and the dominant religion among Ashkenazi Jews originated in the Middle East, not Europe or the Americas. Also, the mutations I mentioned earlier are passed from parent to child or from generation to generation within groups that share parentage. Hence their use to confirm ethnicity and lineage. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 18:59, 29 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
[...we should not be implying that Category:Middle Eastern people is relevant to all Jewish article without taking into account other relevant cats. As has been implied above - most people do understand that European Jews are a multi-ethnic group with a long and dynamic background. Yes there is a common link for many - but there are many other links as well within the communities.]
Moxy, It is not necessary to fit Ashkenazi to one category of descent or the other. Moreover, most ethnic groups contain persons who deviate from racial homogeny. Mestizos (persons of South American Native and Spanish descent) are categorized as Latino, a term nominally used to identify persons of Spanish descent living in Latin America. Latino is an explicitly ethnic category that includes persons of African, Native, Portuguese and Spanish descent. The inclusiveness of this category demonstrates that ethnicity and race are mutually exclusive (they are separate concepts). From Wikipedia: [Hispanic/Latino Americans are very racially diverse, and as a result form an ethnic category, rather than a race.[13][16][17][18]] < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic_and_Latino_Americans> Jews are ethnically Middle Eastern due to the fact that we have more in common with one another than we do with non-Jews regardless of where we live or to which Jewish sub-group we belong. More to the point, the genetics, culture, linguistics and religion Jews share originated in the Middle East. Again, Ashkenazim are ethnically Middle Eastern, but are categorizable as being of both Asian and European descent. It is ethnographically incorrect to remove Ashkenazim, or any Jewish sub-group, from the category of persons of Asian descent. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 21:00, 29 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
Moxy, I'm unsure which of my points you're using to support your assertion that Jews are not of Middle Eastern descent or an ethnicity, period. If you were a geneticist, then you would be aware of the genetic mutations diaspora Jewish populations share with populations residing continuously in the Middle East. Diaspora Jews share more of these mutations with one another than they do with non-Jews. This confirms that A) Jews are an ethnicity that share common, distant ancestors and B) that those common ancestors are of Middle Eastern descent. Genetics affirms that for Ashkenazim these ancestors were primarily, but not exclusively males of Middle Eastern origin. Please word your comments clearly if you'd like to be understood. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 06:13, 1 December 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
Debresser, The term, 'Native American' denotes pre-Colombian ancestry. That ancestry need not be singular and widely shared among a single group of Natives for the term to apply. Ethnic Jews are indigenous to a much smaller piece of real estate than Native Americans. So, it stands to reason that the genetic diversity of Native peoples would be much greater than that of the smaller Jewish nation. Comparing one to the other serves no purpose in this discussion. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 06:13, 1 December 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
I came back a week later to see if there was any consensus so I could return to editing categories of descent and I see a majority of people (meaning over 50%) arguing that editors should not automatically classify any person "of Jewish descent" who lives in any country of the world as being "Asian". I should just remind people that, on Wikipedia, "of Jewish descent" is a separate category than "Jewish".
This is not about the Bible or religious identity or genes or where ones ancestors came from 2000 years ago. If this was true, Europe was sparsely populated and most modern Europeans came from intermixing with Asian groups who migrated West. Everyone should be defined as being Eurasian or African.
We can't base these categorical decisions on one (or two) person's perception of how "most people who are Jewish think of themselves". This is not about denying anyone their heritage or international politics. It's about organizing articles and where readers might look for articles on a particular subject. Try to not personalize this discussion.
Here's a case: Suppose, there is an article on a 21st century Argentine person of Jewish-German descent. As it is now, that individual would be classified (in addition to occupational categories) to be of Argentine descent, Jewish descent and German descent. I argue that they shouldn't also be categorized as of Asian descent. Or a Canadian of Polish-Jewish descent but whose family has lived in Canada for four generations. These are the kind of real-life examples I was working with.
And while I see appeals to religious identity, genetics, solidarity with Israel, etc. I don't see much mention of Wikipedia Categorization guidelines which should be guiding force here, not personal opinion. I refer you to WP:OVERCAT and WP:EGRS for some insight into why 1) ethnic descent categories are contentious and also 2) why an individual should not be over-categorized into 5 or 6 different ethnic categories (especially considering the dozen or so other categories that might apply to them). Liz Read! Talk! 21:23, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
Liz, Outside of this discussion, there is nothing contentious about the standing categorization of Jews as being an ethnic group of Middle Easter descent. Wikipedia guidelines, as you cite them, do not determine reality. Wikipedia is an encyclopedic source of information. Like any encyclopedia, Wikipedia should and must not deviate from conceptual norms. Categorization or taxonomy should be guided by scientific principle and logic, not a need to trim the fat or create a purely Wikipedian system of categorization. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 23:28, 29 November 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
[Here's a case: Suppose, there is an article on a 21st century Argentine person of Jewish-German descent. As it is now, that individual would be classified (in addition to occupational categories) to be of Argentine descent, Jewish descent and German descent. I argue that they shouldn't also be categorized as of Asian descent. Or a Canadian of Polish-Jewish descent but whose family has lived in Canada for four generations. These are the kind of real-life examples I was working with.]
Liz, In the statement above you conflate nationality with descent. The person in question would be an Argentinian national of Jewish-German descent. The person in the second example would be a Canadian national of Polish-Jewish descent. Descent refers to the absolute origin or origins of persons in terms of ethnicity, culture and sometimes religion. Nationality refers to the country in which a person was born. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 04:53, 30 November 2013 (UTC)GarrettRutledge55
Do we need to do an RfC on this topic? I would like to get this resolved rather than in this stalemate. Liz Read! Talk! 17:07, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Obi-wan, When you mentioned that categorizing Jews as persons of Middle Eastern would necessitate classifying Latinos as persons of European descent, you were confusing Latinos with Hispanics. Hispanics, like Jews, trace their origin to a specific place. Because Hispanics self-identify as being of Spanish descent they are categorized as such by the US Census Bureau. Please keep in mind, proximate descent plays no role in this categorization. Moreover, Latino is an ethnolinguistic category whereas Hispanic denotes national origin and ethnicity. Jews, like Hispanics, trace their origins to Israel and maintain a language, culture and religion consistent with that identified place of origin. Thus, Jew denotes Middle Eastern descent in the same way Hispanic denotes Spanish descent. Attaching categories of descent to ethnic groups based on proximate descent only is too exclusive to function properly as a method of categorization. I strongly suggest that editors not adopt methods of categorization that A) conflict with the ways ethnic groups self-identify and B) are inconsistent with norms of categorization. We're fast approaching a time when Wikipedia will cease to be relevant due to the bad practices of editors. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 02:31, 1 December 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
Cullen, As I've stated already, this is not my definitions of "who is a Jew". Rather, this is a Judeo-normative definition of who is a Jew. Converts to Judaism are a rarity, so the question of how the Jewish world should regard converts to the faith has never merited widespread discussion. I imagine converts are a rarity due to the fact that Jews don't proselytize. I've met one convert to the faith. He observed the high holidays, read Torah and went to shul, but continued to self-identify as an Irish-American, not as an ethnic Jew. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 06:40, 1 December 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
Again, Jews are an ethnicity. Judaism is a religion practiced by many, but not all ethnic Jews. The world's most famous atheist, Karl Marx was an ethnic Jew. This delineation is widely understood and accepted. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 06:45, 1 December 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
Obi-wan, I would agree with you if Jewish descent were not explicitly Middle Eastern. My impression is that editors are constructing a system of categorization that meets a need for simplicity. If that system were or could be made compatible with norms of categorization and the ways groups self-identify then we would not be crossing swords. Garrettrutledge55 ( talk) 07:02, 1 December 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
Cullen, By your own admission, the number of converts to Judaism is statistically small. It might interest you to know that ethnic Jews make up the bulk of persons converting to Judaism. When the State of Israel brings ethnic Jews to Israel, those Jews tend to convert as part of the Aliyah (coming to Israel) process if they were not observant already. These are the converts of which the State of Israel speaks. Allow me clarify my earlier statement. The conversion of non-Jews to Judaism is a rarity. Because these conversions are rare, the way in which an ethnic Jew should regard a non-Jew who has converted to Judaism has not been widely discussed among Jews. I qualify this statement by comparing the discussion of conversion among Jews to the discussion of inter-ethnic marriage among Jews. The latter occurs frequently due to a rise in secular attitudes among Jews and has been widely discussed. This is not to say that ethnic Jews do not welcome or recognize conversion to the faith. It is a fact that most US Jewish congregants do. This is to say the conversion of non-Jews to Judaism is not a fixture of Jewish life. If your shul has 20 persons who've undergone a formal conversion, then His hand must be upon you all. Well done. 67.182.154.25 ( talk) 21:13, 1 December 2013 (UTC)garrettrutledge55
I would be glad to define terms and clarify the contexts in which I am using them. The term 'ethnic Jew' refers to a Jew who is a member of any Jewish ethnic group. The major Jewish ethnic groups are the Sephardim, Mizrahim and Ashkenazim. However, there are many more. Each group traces their roots to Israel and shares genetic mutations that affirm a common ancestry. I use the term to underline the reality that Jews are joined by more than Torah. We are an ethnicity. It is a common mistake to define Jews foremost as a religious group and forget our ethnicity altogether. A Jew is a Jew regardless of whether he or she is observant. < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_ethnic_divisions> 67.182.154.25 ( talk)Gilad55 (formerly garrettrutledge55) —Preceding undated comment added 04:23, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
[Most emphatically not: Jews is an ethno-religious group. This is well sources in our Wikipedia article, and it is one of several reason why you are wrong wanting to categorize Jews in all kinds of strange categories.]
Your argument is that Jews are not an ethnic group because we are also defined as an ethno-religious group?
"An ethnoreligious group (or ethno-religious group) is an ethnic group of people whose members are also unified by a common religious background." < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnoreligious_group> Gilad55 ( talk) 05:58, 2 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
Can we agree that descent and proximate descent are radically different terms? Descent refers to the origins of an ethnic group in terms of language, culture, ancestry and, in some, but not all cases, religion. Proximate descent refers to the place in which a prior generation resided and does not determine descent as a whole. For instance, I am an American Ashkenazi Jew. Ashkenazim paternally descend from the Middle East. As an American Jew, I am proximately descended from Jews living in North America. If you were categorizing on an individual basis, then you could correctly categorize me as a person of North American proximate descent. When categorizing my ethnicity as a whole, you could not correctly categorize my descent as anything other than Middle Eastern. If you did attempt to categorize the descent of ethnic groups according to proximate descent, you would then be required to break up the ethnic sub-group 'Ashkenazim' into a myriad of continental groupings. Does that sound simple to you? Again, you would also place that system of categorization in conflict with the ways in which many ethnic groups self-identify; which is ethnographically incorrect. Gilad55 ( talk) 21:12, 2 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
It's not only the issue of self-identification. It is also identification of native European population towards Jews that plays a role. While I was born in the Soviet Union, I was never identified as "Russian". Even in a Soviet-issues passport I was identified as a "Jew". My grandparents who were born in Moldova and Ukraine also were never identified as native Europeans. They were always viewed as foreigners who came to Europe from Middle East - specifically Israel. Often throughout their lives they were told to "go back to Israel". This happened before the nation of Israel was even formed in 1948. While the span of time we are discussing is rather long, it does not matter for our current discussion, as the experience of Jews throughout European history is similar, and you can find it even in classical works from Shakespeare in Merchant of Venice to Walter Scott in Ivanhoe [1] - Jews were culturally and traditionally linked to the land of Israel. Jews were always identified as foreigners in Europe who migrated into Europe from Middle East (Israel more precisely). §nublin2014 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nublin2014 ( talk • contribs) 21:49, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
I sought out this Wiki project then joined this conversation believing I would encounter persons from whom I could learn something. Instead, I found this mishegoss. I'm unlikely to encounter this much misinformation about Jews and Judaism outside of davidduke.com. I'm no one's sock puppet nor have I been canvassed to this discussion. These are my arguments. Each is mined from my education in ethnology and objective study of the Jewish people. I invite you all to research and challenge my assertions rather cast doubt on my motives as an editor. Nothing I've "pushed" is POV. I'm arguing for the application of basic ethnology to this discussion of what determines descent. It's becoming clear that discussion alone won't sway you. Here forward, I'll be adding citations to my points. If any of us fails to cite a point and offers a rationalization in place of an academic argument, then such a comment will not merit a response. Gilad55 ( talk) 04:16, 4 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
I would like to point out that those of you accusing myself and other editors of being canvassed to this discussion are in violation of Wikipedia's AGF (Assume Good Faith) rule. My reason for changing my username is not for public consumption. It's enough that I notified the group of the change and did not attempt to pose as multiple editors in a single discussion.
Jews in Western Europe are not traditionally linked to Israel? It would seem that the English term, 'Jew' literally means 'from Judea'. "The English word Jew continues Middle English Gyw, Iewe, a loan from Old French giu, earlier juieu, ultimately from Latin Iudaeum. The Latin Iudaeus simply means Judaean, "from the land of Judaea"." [2] Jews have a long, well documented history of being regarded as foreign in Western Europe. "The Jews in Medieval Europe were considered a foreign, unchristian element and lived under different conditions than the rest of the Christian population. The Jews were not allowed to posses land and could not became members of peasantry nor of nobility." [3] European Christians of antiquity regarded Jews as a single people who emigrated to Europe from Israel. These Christians would have regarded the Old Testament as a literal history of the Jewish people. As a rule, European Christians would have referred to the biblical Kingdom of Judah (famously ruled by King David) as the Jewish homeland. This belief served as the basis for restorationist theology which in turn gave rise to Christian Zionism. "Ezra Stiles at Yale was a prominent supporter of restoration of the Jews. In 1808, Asa McFarland, a Presbyterian, voiced the opinion of many that the fall of the Ottoman Empire was imminent and would bring about the restoration of the Jews. One David Austin of New Haven spent his fortune building docks and inns from which the Jews could embark to the Holy Land. In 1825 Mordecai Manuel Noah, a Jew who wanted to found a national home for the Jews on Grand Island in New York as a way station on the way to the holy land, won widespread Christian backing for his project. Likewise, restorationist theology was among the inspirations for the first American missionary activity in the Middle East.[citation needed] Many Christians believed that the return of the Jews to Judea, as prophesied in the Bible, was a necessary preliminary step towards the Second Coming, an attitude now known as Christian Zionism." [6] [4] 07:51, 4 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
Ashkenazim self-identify as being of Middle Eastern descent and are identified as such by ethnographers. "Ashkenazi Jews, also known as Ashkenazic Jews or simply Ashkenazim (Hebrew: אַשְׁכְּנַזִּים, Ashkenazi Hebrew pronunciation: [ˌaʃkəˈnazim], singular: [ˌaʃkəˈnazi], Modern Hebrew: [aʃkenaˈzim], [aʃkenaˈzi]; also יְהוּדֵי אַשְׁכֲּנַז Y'hudey Ashkenaz, "The Jews of Germania"), are a Jewish ethnic division who trace their origins to the Israelite tribes of the Middle East,[10][11][12][13][14][15] sharing many common genes with other Jews since Biblical times.[16] " [5] The genetic mutations Ashkenazim share with Jews of the Levant affirms the shared descent of Ashkenazim and these Jewish ethnic sub-groups. " In August 2012, Dr. Harry Ostrer in his book Legacy: A Genetic History of the Jewish People, summarized his and other work in genetics of the last 20 years, and concluded that all major Jewish groups share a common Middle Eastern origin. Ostrer also claimed to have refuted any large-scale genetic contribution from the Turkic Khazars.[4][unreliable source?]Citing Autosomal DNA studies, Nicholas Wade estimates that "Ashkenazic and Sephardic Jews have roughly 30 percent European ancestry, with most of the rest from the Middle East." He further noticed that "The two communities seem very similar to each other genetically, which is unexpected because they have been separated for so long." Concerning this relationship he points to Atzmon conclusions that "the shared genetic elements suggest that members of any Jewish community are related to one another as closely as are fourth or fifth cousins in a large population, which is about 10 times higher than the relationship between two people chosen at random off the streets of New York City"[5] " [6] Gilad55 ( talk) 18:15, 5 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
Debresser, It has been established that 'descent' and 'proximate descent' are wholly separate terms. One has nothing to do with the other. I will repeat the definition of each term for the benefit of any persons whose confusion on this point has not been resolved. 'Descent' refers to the origin of a people or kin group in terms of ancestry, language, culture and, in some, but all cases, religion. Here are two definitions of descent. Note that neither definition places a statute of limitations on descent: 1) "descent group - a kin group whose members are recruited by one of the principles of descent; e.g., matrilineal, patrilineal, etc. [7] 2) "2the origin or background of a person in terms of family or nationality: American families of Hungarian descent" [8] 'Proximate descent' refers to where a previous generation resided and is a container for individuals and families, not ethnic groups who may reside in more than one country or continent. In the example, "American families of Hungarian descent", "American" is the proximate descent of the families. "Hungarian" is the descent of the families. So, you see, it would not matter if the forefathers of Ashkenazi Jews left Israel 1,000 generations ago. Ashkenazim retain their Middle Eastern descent so long as they retain their Jewish identity. This identity can be ethnic, religious or both. Again, it's time to stop substituting rationalizations for researched, academic arguments. Gilad55 ( talk) 18:15, 5 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
[It seems that "descent" as used in Wikipedia categorization is more like "proximate descent" as you define it. If we were to use these definitions. But, again, we should not use these definitions, at least not the definitions of descent, since by that definition we are all of African descent,]
Again, you fail to grasp the meaning of the term 'descent'. Because Ashkenazim do not identify as African, speak an African language or practice an African culture, we are not of African descent. Again, you are arguing by assertion and substituted a rationalization for an academic argument. Perhaps you're confusing Ashkenazim with Ethiopian Jews? But again, Ethiopian Jews are of African proximate descent, not descent. Also, note that the examples I cited earlier were taken from Wikipedia. Wikipedia describes Jews as being of Middle Eastern descent. Gilad55 ( talk) 21:35, 5 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
Obi-wan, No, Natives could not be categorized as European due to the fact that they self-identify as being indigenous to the Americas. A Native most definitely could play cricket, speak English, drink tea (a practice brought to Europe from Asia, mind you) and work in a colonial bureaucracy (which was the case among Natives living during the era of Westward expansion) and still be entirely Native so long as they self-identified as Native and retained their heritage or culture. If a Native American was born to parents living in Poland, then he or she would retain their Native descent, but could be described as being of European proximate descent. This is an important distinction because not basing descent on proximate descent safeguards the ways in which groups self identify. This distinction also prevents us from breaking up an ethnic group into unnecessary sub-categories. There are now no less than three generations of Ashkenazim living in Israel. If we were to base their descent on proximate descent only, then we would be forced to categorize these Ashkenazim as being of Middle Eastern descent, but not their brethren born to parents who themselves were born outside of the Middle East. Proximate descent can only be used to define where the previous generation of a family resided, not to define descent as a whole. In the term 'American of Armenian descent', 'American' denotes proximate descent whereas 'Armenian' denotes descent - the place in which a group's culture, language and perhaps their religion originated. Please, answer these questions: What is the purpose of attempting to place an ethnic group within a single continental container when that group resides in more than one continent? What does such a container have to do with the concept of descent? Why is it necessary to nullify the Middle Eastern descent of a Jew in order to place him or her in the container 'Jews of [insert nationality] proximate descent'? Gilad55 ( talk) 00:11, 6 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
My argument would apply to persons indigenous to India as well. If they self-identified as Indian and retained their culture then no amount of biscuit eating would alter their descent. Gilad55 ( talk) 00:34, 6 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
Gosh, a lot of ink has been spilled on this!
Frankly, I would tend to agree with Debresser on this issue except for one thing: many anti-Israel activists, especially Palestinians, try to make the claim that most modern Jews, especially Ashkenazim, are not really descended from anyone having the right to the Land of Israel. And I'd frankly not like to encourage that line of thought. So I will proudly claim my distant heritage to the Middle East.
All that said, while much (most?) of the Middle East is in Asia, I'm not sure I care one way or the other about the Asian-ness of the Middle East; it is sufficient to me that I be identified as having Middle Eastern descent.
If people are identified as "of Jewish descent", why does it bother people for that category to roll up into "Asian"? The page itself doesn't include the top category, it only includes the immediate category. I just don't get why everyone is so worked up over this. StevenJ81 ( talk) 21:59, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
@Gilad55 It is not that I "don't get it": I simply disagree with you. Repeating your point over and over will not help in having other editors accept it. @Bus stop We have "of Jewish descent" to distinguish it from "Jewish". For example, for those whose fathers are Jewish, or apostates. @Obiwankenobi I agree with the things you said in this last post. Debresser ( talk) 00:26, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
[@Bus stop We have "of Jewish descent" to distinguish it from "Jewish". For example, for those whose fathers are Jewish, or apostates.]
Debresser, Where does apostasy enter into a discussion of Jewish descent? The Orthodox definition of who is and who is not a Jew has no bearing on a secular discussion of Jewish descent. If I've misunderstood you, then please clarify. Gilad55 ( talk) 01:25, 6 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
Bus stop, Editors are arguing that Jews born to parents who themselves were born outside the Middle East should be excluded from the category 'groups of Asian descent'. These editors are arguing that descent should be defined by where one's parents were born rather than by where one's culture and ethnic group originated. These editors are asserting that Ashkenazi Jews should not be described as being of Middle Eastern (Asian) descent because their Jewish forefathers left Israel and settled in Eastern and Western Europe. According to their logic, black Americans are not of African descent. Gilad55 ( talk) 03:27, 6 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
[ The Jewish identity is so much more than a deriviate of geography.]
This statement is true only in the most subjective sense of the term 'Jewish identity'. Jewish identity is intimately linked to Israel in every other possible sense. "Jewish identity is firmly intertwined with Jewish ancestry dating back to the historical Kingdom of Israel, which was largely depopulated by the Roman Empire c. first century AD, leading to what is known as today as the Jewish Diaspora." [9] "For the past 3,000 years there was always a Jewish presence in the Holy Land. Israel is at the core of Jewish identity and peoplehood; the land shapes the Jews' self image and character as a community...." [10] A portion of the Jewish identity developed in the diaspora, but even then Eretz Yisrael was the focus of Jewish cultural and religious practices. Also, the largest single Jewish community today exists in Israel, so an assertion that Jewish identity and Israel are separable is certainly not a position I would choose to defend. Gilad55 ( talk) 23:35, 6 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
Obi-Wan, By all means, remove African Americans from the category 'persons of African descent'. A swarm of African American Studies majors will descend on you as swiftly as a plague from Exodus. That discussion will make this one look like old friends talking over a few drinks. Gilad55 ( talk) 23:43, 6 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
Obi-Wan, If a person traces their ancestry or kin group to Africa, then that person is of African descent. If a recent immigrant from Nigeria wishes to be identified first as a Nigerian American, then that identifier would not conflict in any way with a secondary identifier of 'African descent'. It's not up to Wikipedia to distinguish between the descendants of African slaves brought to the American colonies and the pre-American Civil War US and recent immigrants from Nigeria, the Sudan or Ethiopia. If such a distinction were made by one of these communities or a third party, then Wikipedia could fulfill its role as an encyclopedia and make an entry of the distinction. Gilad55 ( talk) 00:19, 7 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
Yes, proximate descent applies to individuals. Descent applies to groups. A German Jew is a person of German national proximate descent, yet, as a member of a Jewish ethnic group, he or she is also a person of Middle Eastern descent. There's no conflict between the two identifiers. Gilad55 ( talk) 00:59, 7 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
Wow, what a mess. In any case I'd like to throw my hat in and agree that Jews should be classified as Middle Eastern. It makes the most sense to me. Salmonpate ( talk) 02:04, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
Yes, ethnic Jews should be classified as a group or nation of Middle Eastern descent. Feel free to classify individuals who are not of Middle Eastern descent, but who convert to Judaism as not being of Middle Eastern descent. Ethnic Jews are, as the term 'ethnic Jew' suggests, an ethnic group. Judaism is a religion. An Irish Catholic who converts to Judaism would not cease to be a person of Western European descent. Conversely, an observant ethnic Jew who suddenly converts to Catholicism would remain an ethnic Jew and thus a person of Middle Eastern descent. Please, keep in mind that we are discussing ethnicity and descent, not religious affiliation. 67.182.154.25 ( talk) 06:20, 10 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
Bus stop, The term 'ethnic Jew' refers to a person born to any one of several Jewish ethnic groups. "Jewish ethnic divisions refers to a number of distinctive communities within the world's ethnically Jewish population. Although considered one single self-identifying ethnicity, there are distinctive ethnic divisions among Jews, most of which are primarily the result of geographic branching from an originating Israelite population, and subsequent independent evolutions.[1]" [11] Gilad55 ( talk) 04:57, 11 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
How would you refer to a Jew who is a member of an ethnic group? Ashkenazim, Mizrahim, Sephardim, etc. are all defined as ethnic sub-groups of the Jewish nation. If a Wikipedia article includes references then it is admissible as a source in this discussion. Are you denying there is such a thing as Jewish ethnicity? If you are, then you would be arguing by assertion. I use the term 'ethnic Jew' to differentiate between a person who is born into an ethnically Jewish family that traces its roots to Israel and a person who observes the Jewish faith, but has no Jewish blood and who was born into a family that traces its roots to some place other than Israel. I made the distinction for the benefit of those who appear to have difficulty separating the Jewish nation from Judaism; which is a religious faith open to non-Jews. This distinction is not controversial among Jews. Reform Judaism and similar modern Jewish religious movements would consider a person who converts to Judaism, but who was not Jewish according to Halachic law before their conversion, to be a Jew. However, an ethnographer would not lump a person with no Jewish ancestry into the same ethnic category as a Mizrahi Jew just because the two share a religious belief system. Jews are a people or nation first. This is why the bar for conversion is high (it takes an average of five years of study with a Rabbi to successfully convert). One does not simply show up to shul and call him or herself a Jew. Gilad55 ( talk) 07:46, 11 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
When one is a member of an ethnic group, one can be referred to as 'ethnic'. "What, then, are the Jews? I’d argue they are an “ethnic community,” in the definition used by political scientists, sociologists, and anthropologists. Ethnicity is not about physical characteristics or genetic ancestry, though that can be part of it. Rather, it incorporates a shared history and experiences, common territorial affiliation, similar cultural traditions and practices, and so on—in short, a sense of belonging to one’s own group." [12] The following is the Oxford definition of 'ethnic group' (Ashkenazim, Sephardim, Mizrahim, etc. are defined as ethnic groups belonging to the Jewish nation): "of or relating to a population subgroup (within a larger or dominant national or cultural group) with a common national or cultural tradition:...of or relating to national and cultural origins:...denoting origin by birth or descent rather than by present nationality: ethnic Albanians in Kosovo" [13] A member of the ethnic Ashkenazi Jewish community can be referred to as 'ethnically Ashkenazi' or as an 'ethnic Ashkenazi Jew'. This is basic ethnographical parlance. 67.182.154.25 ( talk) 18:28, 12 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
Please note that Oxford defines ethnicity and descent as being independent of present nationality. One's present nationality does not determine one's descent. Gilad55 ( talk) 18:37, 12 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
Bus stop, Please, explain how your critique of the term pertains to the subject of this thread; which is A) whether Ashkenazim should be categorized as an ethnic group of Middle Eastern descent by Wikipedia and B) whether Wikipedia is justified in deviating from norms of categorizing descent. If you believe the term 'Jewish ethnicity' is more appropriate than 'ethnic Jew', then use the term you're most comfortable with. I'd rather not quibble. The outcome of our discussion of Jewish ethnicity will not determine the reality that every Jew is member of their respective ethnicity and the Jewish nation as a whole. The Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines anti-Semitism as "hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group". Please, note the inclusion of "ethnic group" in the Merriam-Webster definition. It will be the last source I provide on the subject of whether Jews are considered an ethnicity.
[14]
Gilad55 (
talk) 05:34, 13 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
Our roots are middle eastern so I beleive ethnic Jews belong there.
Crystalfile (
talk)
13:57, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
I agree with most of what you say Gilad, but I have two problems. 1) Jews who convert are considered fully Jewish, although they would (obviously) be excluded from "People of Jewish descent" or Jewish ethnic divisions like Ashkenazim and Sephardim. 2) You linked to a blog at Times of Israel. Blogs and partisan sources are not considered reliable sources here. Evildoer187 ( talk) 14:26, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
We are in agreement. Still, how does a discussion of Jewish ethnicity pertain to the subject of this thread? Have we run out of arguments? Gilad55 ( talk) 14:48, 13 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
So, we are still at a stalemate, only some people have joined the conversation while others (like myself), have bowed out? Should this go to an RfC? I have a feeling the result might also be non-consensus.
I'd just like to remind the latecomers that the original question regarded whether people who "are of Jewish descent" should be identified as Asian. Examples would be individuals of German-Jewish descent (who are tagged with German descent and Jewish descent) and Mexican Jews (who would be categorized as being of Mexican descent and Jewish descent). It was not specifically about Ashkenazi Jews or the Middle East. It was about people, who identify not as "being Jewish" but as "being of Jewish descent" (which might be one great-grandfather), people who specifically who do not live in Southwest Asia that includes the Middle East. Should these individuals who see some family link to Judaism in their family past be placed in a "of Asian descent" category.
That is the only question. It's not about ethnic or religious identity because there is no question that all of these people are of Jewish descent. It's not "taking away" anything. It's not about who is Jewish or some political issue. It's simply that Wikipedia has to be careful about WP:OVERCAT and have to be selective about what categories we assign to people and groups. If we were to assign every single aspect of a profile to a category, articles would be laden with 20 or 30 categories. Ethnicity is just one aspect of a person, there are other categories that they belong to. Liz Read! Talk! 05:04, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
I feel this discussion was exhaustive enough and no need to open an Rfc. The result is: no consensus for change. Debresser ( talk) 17:35, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
How do you propose to organize an ethnicity like Ashkenazi by nationality? First you were discussing descent and then nationality. My arguments have been factual, not political. There is no statute of limitations on descent. You can organize individuals by proximate descent, but not ethnic groups. This is basic ethnography. Deviating from norms of categorization invites contradiction. Gilad55 ( talk) 20:15, 14 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
Why this preoccupation with converts to Judaism? Persons of Jewish descent are persons who belong to a Jewish ethnic group and who possess Jewish ancestry. We have an agreement between myself and Evildoer that descent and Judaism are unrelated. If an individual of Pacific Islander descent converted to Judaism, then he or she would remain a Pacific Island Native thereafter. Moreover, the category 'of Jewish descent' applies to groups, not individuals. The sentiment that Jews are an invented people who do not descend from Israel is entirely anti-Semitic. If Wikipedia eliminates the category 'of Jewish descent' or eliminates Jews from the category 'of Asian descent', then Wikipedia will have engaged in Merriam-Webster's definition of an anti-Semitic act by demonstrating hostility toward Jews as an ethnic group. Gilad55 ( talk) 17:51, 15 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
Re-reading through the entire thread and all of the arbitrary breaks, it would seem that consensus is split down the middle. I am also opposed to deleting "People of Jewish descent" category. Just add it to the relevant categories and be done with it, imo. It's really rather comical how people are getting so upset over this. Evildoer187 ( talk) 21:48, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
Yes, just add the relevant categories and be done with it. The convert argument is fallacious. It wrongly assumes that converts to Judaism exist in large numbers and constitute recognizable portions of the Jewish ethnic groups whose descent we are discussing. Wikipedia is either an encyclopedic source of knowledge whose editors record facts as agreed upon in other sources or it is an opinion page. It cannot be both. Gilad55 ( talk) 22:22, 15 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
Bus stop, If that person is a member of a Jewish ethnic group that traces its origins to the Levant, then yes, that person belongs in the category 'of Jewish descent'. Please, focus on the issue at hand. We are discussing the categorization of groups, not individuals. Gilad55 ( talk) 07:26, 16 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
Liz, If you review the thread, you will find editors discussing individuals and groups as if the two could be approached as a single subject. Editors argued that proximate descent (nationality) nullify descent and used this as a justification for removing Jews living outside the Levant from the category 'of Jewish descent'. Moreover, editors conflated descent and proximate descent. The two are separate terms that serve separate purposes. I'm amazed that persons who do not know this feel qualified to edit subjects related to ethnography. Gilad55 ( talk) 07:32, 17 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
Bus stop, Yes, Jews are a nation. Judaism is a religion. One's identification with the Jewish faith does not determine one's ethnicity; though Judaism and Jewish ethnicity do co-occur. I sincerely congratulate you for understanding this. Gilad55 ( talk) 07:41, 17 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
I'm inclined to agree with Gilad and the others. Recent converts fall outside the scope of this discussion, and the Middle Eastern descent of Jews is extensively documented. Except maybe a tiny minority that is, but it bears repeating that not all members of a nation or ethnic group necessarily share the same blood, but we don't make these distinctions in any other case. Ankh. Morpork 18:04, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
Debresser, We are discussing descent in terms of culture, religion and defined ancestry. The African origins argument is a very poor wedge. That ancestry is likely, yet theoretical. The Middle Eastern ancestry of Jews living outside the Levant is a matter of agreed upon histories, genetics, self-identification and the living culture of these Jews. In other words, the Middle Eastern ancestry of galut Jews is not theoretical. 67.182.154.25 (talk) 16:47, 18 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
So long as the term 'descent' is used properly and not conflated with proximate descent, I would not be opposed to requiring a source. That source could be as simple as one in which an individual declares his or her ethnicity or refers to their culture. Gilad55 ( talk) 17:43, 19 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
I'd like to remind everyone again of the definition of the term 'descent'. "the origin or background of a person in terms of family or nationality: American families of Hungarian descent" [1] Please note that descent is not acquired through participation in a nation's culture or religion. Descent is a matter of lineage. The children of non-Jewish converts to Judaism would inherit the descent of their parents. If their parents are Pacific Islanders, then they would be born persons of Pacific Island descent regardless of their parents' religious faith. This is simple logic. Gilad55 ( talk) 07:36, 21 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
Addendum: In the example I just provided, the children of these parents should be categorized as 'of Jewish descent' if their parents converted before their births and raised them in a Jewish household. Being Pacific Islanders, these children should not be included in the category 'of Middle Eastern descent'. I hope this is not too confusing for those of you who have difficulty separating Judaism from Jews as organized into ethnic groups (Mizrahi, Sephardi, Ashkenazi, etc.). Converts who were not Jewish before conversion are considered fully Jewish afterward. However, conversion does not confer Middle Eastern descent upon persons whose ancestors all come from elsewhere. Gilad55 ( talk) 17:10, 21 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
Bus stop, There are many Jews who converted to Judaism after being raised in non-observant homes. In fact, many converts are ethnically Jewish. They convert as a means of connecting to their Jewish heritage. Gilad55 ( talk) 19:36, 21 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
I will admit, education or acclimation are better words than conversion. Conversion implies no prior relationship to the Jewish nation. I stand by my statement, "education is a precondition of participation in Jewish religious life." Even if one only knows the Shema in Hebrew by heart, that is an example of the education to which I am referring. I never asserted that a person must be observant to be considered fully Jewish. Seems someone is creating a straw man. Gilad55 ( talk) 02:48, 25 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55
@ Liz: May I ask a stupid question?
You said: "If we were to assign every single aspect of a profile to a category, articles would be laden with 20 or 30 categories." Just wondering why this would be a problem and to whom? X Ottawahitech ( talk) 14:22, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
I agree with Bus stop. More to the point, efforts to recategorize Jews, whether individually or in groups, as persons of non-Middle Eastern descent demonstrates POV pushing that is not in keeping with Wikipedia's standards for editing articles. Reliable sources describe Jews as originating in the Levant. One could report other theories and provide citations for those theories, but one could not assert that the descent of Jews is considered as other than Middle Eastern by the world at large. Gilad55 ( talk) 07:12, 21 December 2013 (UTC)Gilad55