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Everytype, I'm repeating comments I made above in the jungle of comments to Masem because I think we are missing the central issue here. The fact is that "RoI" is unacceptable but there are several alternatives more acceptable - not because of any intrinsic merit but because they avoid the political POV that makes "RoI" unacceptable. This formula, like the proposed text, misses that and hence overwhealmingly biases this process in favour of the status quo. It needs to be explained to the community that several of the solutions on offer (and some of those arbitrarily dropped) address the core cause of the conflict and that "RoI" does not. Sarah777 ( talk) 08:40, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Sarah. The fact is that you find Republic of Ireland to be unacceptable. Other people find it acceptable. That's a fact. You don't have to like the fact, but it is a fact. I am not saying I find it to be acceptable. I'm saying that it's not true to say that it is unacceptable. You have accused me of favouring the status quo. As it happens I do not favour it. Indeed I have never favoured it. That does not prevent me, however, from working on a set of Pros/Cons and a general intro to the poll which attempts to balance the different views. I DON"T CARE if you can't stand Republic of Ireland being on the poll as a possible name for the article on the state. It's there. I DON'T CARE if someone on the other side can't stand Ireland being on the poll as a possible name for the article on the state. I can express my opinions on the poll. When trying to put the ballot together, however, I and Scoláire and Rannṗáirtí Anaiṫnid have tried to be even-handed not to make Republicans or Unionists happy or unhappy, but because that's how one is supposed to do it. I am willing to allow the ballot to make statements that are true, without trying to make the ballot into a propaganda exercise — and that is what your arguments, and those of Tfz, and Domer48, and BigDunc, seem to me (that's my opinion) be leading toward. You want the ballot to argue for your POV because you're afraid that you'll "lose". Personally I doubt that the status quo will stand. But I agreed, as did you, to let the wider community to decide. That's the risk I agree to take because we have not been able to come to agreement in some other way. -- Evertype· ✆ 11:02, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
I have suggested that we provide Pro and Con statements which are fully supported by referenced sources in an effort to inform readers. That it should be described as "a propaganda exercise" is very unhelpful. I'd like it to stop. Is there any reasonable or rational suggestions as to why we should not try to have an informed set of statements? -- Domer48 'fenian' 18:49, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
I know this isn't sexy but it *really* has to be sorted. Without agreeing in advance exactly how we are going to decide the result of the vote, we risk wasting our entire efforts. We are going to invite the entire Wikipedia community to participate in a three-week poll using what, to most of them, will look like some super fandangly voting system. If, at the end of those three weeks, we are left arguing over what was the actual outcome was, we will be the laughing stock of Wikipedia.
It is *crucial* that we agree in advance how we are going to do this. So, whatever your opinion, if you don't support, object or comment on the below, you risk your vote counting for nothing.
We currently have two proposed methods. Please cast your !vote below each one. The difference between the two is as follows:
(Masem, I have summarised yours below, reducing mathematical redundancies from your description above. Rockpocket, Scolaire, GoodDay, I have copied-and-pasted your votes from the on-going poll above, which I have moved down here - I hope I am right in doing so.)
--rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid ( coṁrá) 22:50, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
Method 1:
Method 2:
I thought the method of calculating votes had already been agreed to above? ive stayed out of that debate, the maths gave me a headache. BritishWatcher ( talk) 22:51, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
A question on Method 1: so that there is no ambiguity: If I vote #1 "Ireland" and #2 "Ireland (something else)" and #3 "Ireland State" - if "Ireland" is eliminated then my vote is added (100%) to "Ireland (something else)". If "Ireland (something else)" is then eliminated and "Ireland (state) is still in the frame my vote gets added (100%) to "Ireland (state)". But if I don't vote "Ireland (state)" #1 there is a risk that by the time "Ireland (something else)" is eliminated then "Ireland (state)" may also be gone and with it my anti-RoI vote? Sarah777 ( talk) 10:26, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
Let's take a poll on taking the poll. Do you support the poll starting sooner, rather than after a protracted new argument process? If you do, sign support. If you prefer to wait and work through writing another set of arguments, sign oppose.
Yes, I want to push the poll forward, but I want to make sure people are satisfied. The problem is that there is so much noise that it is very difficult to follow (I suspect these are the reasons the other moderators quit).
Please review Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration/Poll on Ireland article names/Ballot paper, and I would like to know that, if you have any misgivings on its set up , what those are, whether its in the lead statement or in the instructions, this includes if you are feeling there is a big necessary fact that non-involved editors must be aware of. Please don't respond to others; I need to assess if we're talking wording or procedural fixes that are easy to fix, or if we need a bit more effort (like the pro and con statements), and arguing over specific points won't help to fix it. -- MASEM ( t) 18:33, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
“Both uses of the name "Ireland" are considered equally valid and neither can be selected as the most common per standard naming convention rules, which has led to long debates (and edit wars) about the issues.” I disagree with this statement, based on standard naming convention rules. The name "Ireland" is the state's internationally-recognized name per standard naming convention rules. So this contradicts the statement on the section Ireland (state).
“Imprecision in naming may lead to equivocal statements (compare "Belfast is the second-largest city in Ireland" and "Cork is the second-largest city in Ireland", either of which may be true or not depending on how the word "Ireland" is taken).”
This is a red herring! Belfast is the second largest city on the island of Ireland, and is situated in Northern Ireland. Cork is the second largest city in the Irish State, however, Belfast, in Northern Ireland is the second largest city in the island of Ireland. All it takes is a little care with wording and the problem can be over come, we can deal with this if and when the situation arises. A little good faith editing, that’s all it needs, so the statement should be removed.
“As there is a stalemate in achieving consensus on the issue, the parties have agreed to use the results of a poll to all Wikipedia editors to resolve the matter.”
Some editors have agreed to a poll, others would like to use conventional measures i.e. policies so this should be reflected in the statement.
On the comments attached to Ireland (state) and Republic of Ireland, they are currently being discussed re adding statements.
On the other option, it lists China, but does not mention the alternative option I offered?
On the ballot options, the fact that “The name "Ireland" is the state's internationally-recognized name” per standard naming convention rules raises valid questions as to why there are other options being considered? The fact that option F is still on the ballot paper, also raises questions. RoI is not “the state's internationally-recognized name” runs counter to standard naming convention rules and negates the whole purpose of Wikipedia not to mention going against neutral point of view when we view the number of sources which expressly state that it should not be used in this way.This is an international Encyclopaedia, why is it being reduced to British and Irish politics? -- Domer48 'fenian' 20:02, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Masem said opening this tread "Please don't respond to others; I need to assess if we're talking wording or procedural fixes that are easy to fix, or if we need a bit more effort (like the pro and con statements), and arguing over specific points won't help to fix it. Can editors not follow simple instructions? -- Domer48 'fenian' 20:09, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
As to keep things separate:
I will also note that just now, I considered trying to write down pros and cons for each choice, and each time, I got hung up on how to describe the choice between Ireland (state) and ROI without running into problems and keeping a POV. This keeps telling me that the initial statement of the problem seems to be the best solution and let editors read further if they want more details, as covering the pros/cons of Ireland (state) and ROI in one shot makes a clear statement of why both options are on the ballot. -- MASEM ( t) 21:40, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Masem, it says quite clearly "The name "Ireland" is the state's internationally-recognized name." Now per Standard naming conventions article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize and should be optimized for readers over editors, and for a general audience over specialists. Optimized for readers with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, Ireland is referring to the name of the Nation, State, and internationally-recognized sovereign country. Editors are not a general audience, and inflating a reasonable minimum of ambiguity over the island is to move the reader from the general to the specialists audience. Ireland can refer to the island in a purely geographical sense, but internationally it’s recognized as referring to the Nation, State, and sovereign country. -- Domer48 'fenian' 10:55, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
When I see Scolaire beating the RoI drum I just get a little speechless. Maybe he should write to the EU and to the Council of Europe to point out their erring ways. There is little hope on this 'collaboration page' for any satisfactory solution at this rate. Fast losing interest(. Tfz 15:43, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
The more reasonable and logical my comments, the more irrational, desperate and personalised are the opinions I get in return. Now Masem asked for comments on Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration/Poll on Ireland article names/Ballot paper because they are trying to determine what needs to be fixed. I’ve pointed to a glaring contradiction between the Lead and the statements on the options. In the Lead it says “Both uses of the name "Ireland" are considered equally valid and neither can be selected as the most common per standard naming convention rules” however in the statement attached to Ireland (state) it states that “The name "Ireland" is the state's internationally-recognized name.” Both statements cannot be true, and based on all the available sources, the state's internationally-recognized name is the most common per standard naming convention rules as opposed to the strictly geographical use of the name. I perfectly willing to listen to counter arguments, but to try to establish that the strictly geographical use of the name is the most common per standard naming convention rules above that of the state's internationally-recognized name will require more than just the opinions of Editors because according to ArbCom, "Wikipedia determines the recognizability of a name by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject." -- Domer48 'fenian' 18:04, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Ok, based on input (and before this become discussion wars again), here's the biggest thing I see as a problem (plus or minus a few small fixes to the intro text on the ballot). It is the fact that ROI is being proposed as a solution but it's "cons" are not being presented. Now, for sake of simplicity, when you consider every single other solution and name (including disamb names), there's no real "cons" to these - the terms aren't loaded, they're appropriate per WP standards with whatever disamb stubs; the question between all these is just which one seems to be best. What this all comes down to is the fact that ROI is seen as a very negative term by some, while others see it as a completely appropriate term. I'm not going to go into who's right or wrong - there's no answer there, but I do consider my own entire experience with this moderation, at the start having no idea why "ROI" was being contested. After a few months, I know much better, but that's after a few months of getting very involved and reading the backhistories and the like. We're asking voters, who likely will not spend that time or have that time, to do the same.
Thus, what I need needs to be done is, in the summary, to clearly outline that this issue is primarily complicated by the term ROI, explaining that it is a proper descriptor of the country (and thus could be read to be positive in that light) but also brings back a history of UK-nationalism due to it being how the UK called from 1949 up to 1998 (after the Belfest Agreement), despite it not being the internationally recognized name. Here's what I propose changing that text to:
![]() | Summary of result of Ireland Collaboration ProjectThe name "Ireland" is considered to be ambiguous with respect to a number of meanings, but primarily between two entities: the island named "Ireland", and the state that occupies about 83% of it and comprising 26 of 32 counties, also named "Ireland". ( Northern Ireland, which comprises the remaining 6 counties and 17% of the island, is part of the United Kingdom.) Both uses of the name "Ireland" are considered equally valid, and attempts to determine which is most comment per standard naming convention rules has led to long debates (and edit wars) about the issues. Other naming conflicts that involve countries do not provide consistent advice for resolution of this issue (compare, for example, Luxembourg, Georgia (country), Tasmania, and People's Republic of China). Imprecision in naming may lead to equivocal statements (compare " Belfast is the second-largest city in Ireland" and " Cork is the second-largest city in Ireland", either of which may be true or not depending on how the word "Ireland" is taken). Since this also affects where the disambiguation page for the term "Ireland" will fall, that too is considered part of the naming conflict resolution issue. The major component of the issue is the phrase "Republic of Ireland", which is presently the current location of information for the 26-county state. "Republic of Ireland" is an official descriptor for the state, as per the 1948 Republic of Ireland Act, though the name of the state by both this Act and the international community is "Ireland". However, at the same time, "Republic of Ireland" was considered to be the name of the state by the United Kingdom in their 1949 Ireland Act, and remained such until the 1998 Belfast Agreement, upon which UK recognized the state's name as only "Ireland". The political disagreements between the UK and Ireland between 1949 and 1998 have led some to view the term "Republic of Ireland" as supporting UK nationalism and a negative term upon the state of Ireland, leading to lengthy debates with both wikilawyering and politically-charged discussion about the use of the term as the state's article name on Wikipedia. (For more information see Names of the Irish state.) As there is a stalemate in achieving consensus on the issue, the parties have agreed to use the results of a poll to all Wikipedia editors to resolve the matter. The six most likely options from the Ireland Collaboration Project are listed below, presented in no particular or preferential order. Regardless of the solution, appropriate hatnotes will be used to guide readers to the appropriate articles. Further discussion at the Ireland Collaboration Project will also take place before renaming to resolve other issues such as how the 26-county state named "Ireland" will be referred to in the text of other articles. See also
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This attempts to cover the ROI issue (which is truly the core of it - without it, either being completely acceptable or completely unacceptable, the solution would have been easy) in "quick readership" depth, enough to point people if they want to know more. This, along with linked-in userspace essays for those that want to supply them, I think will make the ballot as fair as it can ever possibly be. -- MASEM ( t) 18:36, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
The statement “Both uses of the name "Ireland" are considered equally valid” is semantics and a play on words. “The name "Ireland" is the state's internationally-recognized name” however to attempt to give parity of esteem to its geographical use per Standard naming conventions is disingenuous. To suggest that there has been attempts to determine which is the most common per standard naming convention rules is equally misleading, because there has been no attempts to determine which is most common, however I could be wrong and a diff to the discussion would certainly put me in my place.
The use of the Cork and Belfast analogy is also misleading, and I’ve addressed that above which has not been responded to. It has also been pointed out that this is an international encyclopaedia, and what the UK did and did not call the Irish State is irrelevant as the international community called the State Ireland. The fact that the UK now accept that the Irish State is called Ireland and use the name Ireland makes its relevance even more moot.
It has also been pointed out that the parties did not all agree to use the results of a poll too resolve the matter and this should be reflected in the wording. In addition all references to alternative proposals have now been omitted and why is that? -- Domer48 'fenian' 19:06, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Focusing only on the ROI statement, it can be reworded as follows:
The major component of the issue is the phrase "Republic of Ireland", which is presently the current location of information for the 26-county state. "Republic of Ireland" is an official description of the state, as per the 1948 Republic of Ireland Act, though the name of the state both under this Act and for the international community is "Ireland". However, at the same time, the phrase "Republic of Ireland" was considered to be the name of the state by the United Kingdom in its 1949 Ireland Act, and remained such until the 1998 Belfast Agreement, upon which the UK recognized the state's name as only "Ireland". The political disagreements between the UK and Ireland between 1949 and 1998 have led some to view the term "Republic of Ireland" as supporting UK nationalism and a negative term upon the state of Ireland. However the term "Republic of Ireland" is also commonly used today in a non-derogatory way within the state of Ireland's government and elsewhere (source to be supplied). The history of the term "Republic of Ireland" has led to lengthy debates with both wikilawyering and politically-charged discussion about the use of the term as the state's article name on Wikipedia. (For more information see Names of the Irish state.)
Scolaire suggested that there's a source to show the ROI term use today; this should help balance the fact that some see the term as negative, some see it as positive. -- MASEM ( t) 19:33, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
The example I used last year was this: On 17 September 2008, asked about plans for Fianna Fáil to organise in Northern Ireland, An Taoiseach, Brian Cowen said, "I am concentrating...on the strategic review of our own organisation within the Republic." - Irish Times, September 17, 2008 Scolaire ( talk) 19:44, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
I agree Snowded. That the term Republic of Ireland is used to distinguish between Ireland and Northern Ireland in given circumstances is not the same as Republic of Ireland being used for the name of the state when no distinction is required. For example, it would be unacceptable to say Dublin is in the Republic of Ireland according to the international community. The only ones who would insist on this phraseology are definitely pushing an old outdated POV, which even the UK has now rejected. Examples of Republic of Ireland being used to differentiate between Ireland and Northern Ireland, would include [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8] etc, etc… but to suggest that this equates to international recognition of the term for the name of the Irish state is unsupportable. The European Union which includes the UK note that the names of the Member States of the European Union must always be written and abbreviated according to the Interinstitutional Style Guide rules and that neither “Republic of Ireland” nor “Irish Republic” should be used when referring to the Irish State. This is also noted in Constitutional Law of 15 EU Member States (edition 6), by L. Prakke, C. A. J. M. Kortmann, Hans van den Brandhof, J. C. E. van den Brandhof, Kluwer, 2004, ISBN 9013012558, Pg.430. In addition, I would suggest adding this essay/article alongside the Names of the Irish state to help inform the opinions of readers.-- Domer48 'fenian' 20:38, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Per my comment above. -- Domer48 'fenian' 21:18, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
I'd like to point out that this phrase and remained such until the 1998 Belfast Agreement, upon which UK recognized the state's name as only "Ireland". is incorrect. The UK has not officially changed anything, and the 1949 Ireland Act is still in force. For me, this is a BIG reason not to use RoI, as it promulgates the official UK position. Unofficially, the UK will now accept the name of the sovereign country as Ireland - but this is more of a relaxing of an official position, than an actual new official position. -- HighKing ( talk) 21:27, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
![]() | Summary of result of Ireland Collaboration ProjectThe name "Ireland" is considered to be ambiguous with respect to a number of meanings, but primarily between two entities: the island named "Ireland", and the state that occupies about 83% of it and comprising 26 of 32 counties, also named "Ireland". ( Northern Ireland, which comprises the remaining 6 counties and 17% of the island, is part of the United Kingdom.) Both uses of the name "Ireland" are considered equally valid, and attempts to determine which is most common per standard naming convention rules has led to long debates (and edit wars) about the issues. Other naming conflicts that involve countries do not provide consistent advice for resolution of this issue (compare, for example, Luxembourg, Georgia (country), Tasmania, and People's Republic of China). Imprecision in naming may lead to equivocal statements; either Belfast or Cork could be considered the "second-largest city in Ireland" depending on how "Ireland" is taken. Since this also affects where the disambiguation page for the term "Ireland" will fall, that too is considered part of the naming conflict resolution issue. The major component of the issue is the phrase "Republic of Ireland", which is presently the current location of information for the 26-county state. "Republic of Ireland" is an official description of the state, as per the 1948 Republic of Ireland Act, though the name of the state both under the state's constitution and for the international community, particularly the European Union ( [11]) is "Ireland". However, at the same time, the phrase "Republic of Ireland" was considered to be the name of the state by the United Kingdom in its 1949 Ireland Act in order to distinguish the state from the island, and remained such until the 1998 Belfast Agreement, upon which the UK recognized the state's name as only "Ireland", though the Ireland Act still remains in effect. The political disagreements between the UK and Ireland between 1949 and 1998 have led some editors to view the phrase "Republic of Ireland" as supporting UK nationalism and a negative term upon the state of Ireland. However the term "Republic of Ireland" is also commonly used today in a non-derogatory way within the state of Ireland's government and elsewhere ( [12], [13]); as such, other editors see the phrase "Republic of Ireland" as an acceptable means to identify the state, and thus an appropriate solution to disambiguate it from the island. The history of the phrase "Republic of Ireland" has led to lengthy debates with both wikilawyering and politically-charged discussion about the use of the term as the state's article name on Wikipedia. (For more information see Names of the Irish state.) As there is a stalemate in achieving consensus on the issue, it has been decided to use the results of a poll of all Wikipedia editors to resolve the matter. The six most likely options from the Ireland Collaboration Project are listed below, presented in no particular or preferential order. Regardless of the solution, appropriate hatnotes will be used to guide readers to the appropriate articles. Further discussion at the Ireland Collaboration Project will also take place before renaming to resolve other issues such as how the 26-county state named "Ireland" will be referred to in the text of other articles. See also
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Update to include some of the points and references above. -- MASEM ( t) 21:58, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
I doubt you had a chance to read my comments above, Masem. I think most of the still apply here, particuly my last comment about focusing in on the Republic of Ireland "controversy" and losing sight of what the real question should be: how to organise *two* topic of the name name on this encyclopedia. If it was only the state article we had to organise the solution would be simple: it's name is "Ireland". The problem is that there are two things called "Ireland" and the vote is how we are to organise those *two* things. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid ( coṁrá) 22:04, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
![]() | Summary of result of Ireland Collaboration ProjectThe name "Ireland" is considered to be ambiguous with respect to a number of meanings, but primarily between two entities: the island named "Ireland", and the state that occupies about 83% of it and comprising 26 of 32 counties, also named "Ireland". ( Northern Ireland, which comprises the remaining 6 counties and 17% of the island, is part of the United Kingdom.) Both uses of the name "Ireland" are considered equally valid, and attempts to determine which is most common per standard naming convention rules has led to long debates (and edit wars) about the issues. Other naming conflicts that involve countries do not provide consistent advice for resolution of this issue (compare, for example, Luxembourg, Georgia (country), Tasmania, and People's Republic of China). Imprecision in naming may lead to equivocal statements; either Belfast or Cork could be considered the "second-largest city in Ireland" depending on how "Ireland" is taken. Since this also affects where the disambiguation page for the term "Ireland" will fall, that too is considered part of the naming conflict resolution issue. As there is a stalemate in achieving consensus on the issue, it has been decided to use the results of a poll of all Wikipedia editors to resolve the matter. The six most likely options, based on solutions used for other country names, from the Ireland Collaboration Project are listed below, presented in no particular or preferential order, along with links to essays from its participants which voters are strongly encouraged to read before making their choice. Regardless of the solution, appropriate hatnotes will be used to guide readers to the appropriate articles. Further discussion at the Ireland Collaboration Project will also take place before renaming to resolve other issues such as how the 26-county state named "Ireland" will be referred to in the text of other articles. See also
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If we nix mention of ROI... -- MASEM ( t) 22:11, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
MASEM thanks for the responce. Because the country's/States/Nations name is the internationally recognized name for it, does make that use of that term the most common english use, above and beyond the geograpicial use of the name. It is very disingenous to talk about "common sense", that the island and country name are comparatively equal in their claim to the name "Ireland" when one is clearly being used in a singular geograpicial sense while the other use covers the Nation, State, and country. I offered you the oppertunity to put me in my place by providing a diff for the discussion were this comparatively equal claim was discussed, with you yourself self saying "recognizing the volume of words generated in the years of debate here and what one can find externally, that the island and country name are comparatively equal" so were are the discussions? On ARBCom, you are again being very very disingenous, they outlined what the issue was, but did not pass comment on the validity of any claim. On the Belfast and Cork analogy this is also misleading, as this situation is not and never was a problem and could and was addressed in articles. It was the insistance of a hand full of editors to use RoI which caused the problem. There is no need for it. That the UK don't use RoI is very relevent, that they once did is not. That a hand full of editors want to use this as an excuse is of no concern to us. I also asked about the removal of the alternative options to the poll being removed, and saying that editors agreed to a poll and you have not addressed that, could you do so now? The diff on the discussion would also help a lot thanks. -- Domer48 'fenian' 07:57, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | → | Archive 20 |
Everytype, I'm repeating comments I made above in the jungle of comments to Masem because I think we are missing the central issue here. The fact is that "RoI" is unacceptable but there are several alternatives more acceptable - not because of any intrinsic merit but because they avoid the political POV that makes "RoI" unacceptable. This formula, like the proposed text, misses that and hence overwhealmingly biases this process in favour of the status quo. It needs to be explained to the community that several of the solutions on offer (and some of those arbitrarily dropped) address the core cause of the conflict and that "RoI" does not. Sarah777 ( talk) 08:40, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Sarah. The fact is that you find Republic of Ireland to be unacceptable. Other people find it acceptable. That's a fact. You don't have to like the fact, but it is a fact. I am not saying I find it to be acceptable. I'm saying that it's not true to say that it is unacceptable. You have accused me of favouring the status quo. As it happens I do not favour it. Indeed I have never favoured it. That does not prevent me, however, from working on a set of Pros/Cons and a general intro to the poll which attempts to balance the different views. I DON"T CARE if you can't stand Republic of Ireland being on the poll as a possible name for the article on the state. It's there. I DON'T CARE if someone on the other side can't stand Ireland being on the poll as a possible name for the article on the state. I can express my opinions on the poll. When trying to put the ballot together, however, I and Scoláire and Rannṗáirtí Anaiṫnid have tried to be even-handed not to make Republicans or Unionists happy or unhappy, but because that's how one is supposed to do it. I am willing to allow the ballot to make statements that are true, without trying to make the ballot into a propaganda exercise — and that is what your arguments, and those of Tfz, and Domer48, and BigDunc, seem to me (that's my opinion) be leading toward. You want the ballot to argue for your POV because you're afraid that you'll "lose". Personally I doubt that the status quo will stand. But I agreed, as did you, to let the wider community to decide. That's the risk I agree to take because we have not been able to come to agreement in some other way. -- Evertype· ✆ 11:02, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
I have suggested that we provide Pro and Con statements which are fully supported by referenced sources in an effort to inform readers. That it should be described as "a propaganda exercise" is very unhelpful. I'd like it to stop. Is there any reasonable or rational suggestions as to why we should not try to have an informed set of statements? -- Domer48 'fenian' 18:49, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
I know this isn't sexy but it *really* has to be sorted. Without agreeing in advance exactly how we are going to decide the result of the vote, we risk wasting our entire efforts. We are going to invite the entire Wikipedia community to participate in a three-week poll using what, to most of them, will look like some super fandangly voting system. If, at the end of those three weeks, we are left arguing over what was the actual outcome was, we will be the laughing stock of Wikipedia.
It is *crucial* that we agree in advance how we are going to do this. So, whatever your opinion, if you don't support, object or comment on the below, you risk your vote counting for nothing.
We currently have two proposed methods. Please cast your !vote below each one. The difference between the two is as follows:
(Masem, I have summarised yours below, reducing mathematical redundancies from your description above. Rockpocket, Scolaire, GoodDay, I have copied-and-pasted your votes from the on-going poll above, which I have moved down here - I hope I am right in doing so.)
--rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid ( coṁrá) 22:50, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
Method 1:
Method 2:
I thought the method of calculating votes had already been agreed to above? ive stayed out of that debate, the maths gave me a headache. BritishWatcher ( talk) 22:51, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
A question on Method 1: so that there is no ambiguity: If I vote #1 "Ireland" and #2 "Ireland (something else)" and #3 "Ireland State" - if "Ireland" is eliminated then my vote is added (100%) to "Ireland (something else)". If "Ireland (something else)" is then eliminated and "Ireland (state) is still in the frame my vote gets added (100%) to "Ireland (state)". But if I don't vote "Ireland (state)" #1 there is a risk that by the time "Ireland (something else)" is eliminated then "Ireland (state)" may also be gone and with it my anti-RoI vote? Sarah777 ( talk) 10:26, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
Let's take a poll on taking the poll. Do you support the poll starting sooner, rather than after a protracted new argument process? If you do, sign support. If you prefer to wait and work through writing another set of arguments, sign oppose.
Yes, I want to push the poll forward, but I want to make sure people are satisfied. The problem is that there is so much noise that it is very difficult to follow (I suspect these are the reasons the other moderators quit).
Please review Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration/Poll on Ireland article names/Ballot paper, and I would like to know that, if you have any misgivings on its set up , what those are, whether its in the lead statement or in the instructions, this includes if you are feeling there is a big necessary fact that non-involved editors must be aware of. Please don't respond to others; I need to assess if we're talking wording or procedural fixes that are easy to fix, or if we need a bit more effort (like the pro and con statements), and arguing over specific points won't help to fix it. -- MASEM ( t) 18:33, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
“Both uses of the name "Ireland" are considered equally valid and neither can be selected as the most common per standard naming convention rules, which has led to long debates (and edit wars) about the issues.” I disagree with this statement, based on standard naming convention rules. The name "Ireland" is the state's internationally-recognized name per standard naming convention rules. So this contradicts the statement on the section Ireland (state).
“Imprecision in naming may lead to equivocal statements (compare "Belfast is the second-largest city in Ireland" and "Cork is the second-largest city in Ireland", either of which may be true or not depending on how the word "Ireland" is taken).”
This is a red herring! Belfast is the second largest city on the island of Ireland, and is situated in Northern Ireland. Cork is the second largest city in the Irish State, however, Belfast, in Northern Ireland is the second largest city in the island of Ireland. All it takes is a little care with wording and the problem can be over come, we can deal with this if and when the situation arises. A little good faith editing, that’s all it needs, so the statement should be removed.
“As there is a stalemate in achieving consensus on the issue, the parties have agreed to use the results of a poll to all Wikipedia editors to resolve the matter.”
Some editors have agreed to a poll, others would like to use conventional measures i.e. policies so this should be reflected in the statement.
On the comments attached to Ireland (state) and Republic of Ireland, they are currently being discussed re adding statements.
On the other option, it lists China, but does not mention the alternative option I offered?
On the ballot options, the fact that “The name "Ireland" is the state's internationally-recognized name” per standard naming convention rules raises valid questions as to why there are other options being considered? The fact that option F is still on the ballot paper, also raises questions. RoI is not “the state's internationally-recognized name” runs counter to standard naming convention rules and negates the whole purpose of Wikipedia not to mention going against neutral point of view when we view the number of sources which expressly state that it should not be used in this way.This is an international Encyclopaedia, why is it being reduced to British and Irish politics? -- Domer48 'fenian' 20:02, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Masem said opening this tread "Please don't respond to others; I need to assess if we're talking wording or procedural fixes that are easy to fix, or if we need a bit more effort (like the pro and con statements), and arguing over specific points won't help to fix it. Can editors not follow simple instructions? -- Domer48 'fenian' 20:09, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
As to keep things separate:
I will also note that just now, I considered trying to write down pros and cons for each choice, and each time, I got hung up on how to describe the choice between Ireland (state) and ROI without running into problems and keeping a POV. This keeps telling me that the initial statement of the problem seems to be the best solution and let editors read further if they want more details, as covering the pros/cons of Ireland (state) and ROI in one shot makes a clear statement of why both options are on the ballot. -- MASEM ( t) 21:40, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Masem, it says quite clearly "The name "Ireland" is the state's internationally-recognized name." Now per Standard naming conventions article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize and should be optimized for readers over editors, and for a general audience over specialists. Optimized for readers with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, Ireland is referring to the name of the Nation, State, and internationally-recognized sovereign country. Editors are not a general audience, and inflating a reasonable minimum of ambiguity over the island is to move the reader from the general to the specialists audience. Ireland can refer to the island in a purely geographical sense, but internationally it’s recognized as referring to the Nation, State, and sovereign country. -- Domer48 'fenian' 10:55, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
When I see Scolaire beating the RoI drum I just get a little speechless. Maybe he should write to the EU and to the Council of Europe to point out their erring ways. There is little hope on this 'collaboration page' for any satisfactory solution at this rate. Fast losing interest(. Tfz 15:43, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
The more reasonable and logical my comments, the more irrational, desperate and personalised are the opinions I get in return. Now Masem asked for comments on Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration/Poll on Ireland article names/Ballot paper because they are trying to determine what needs to be fixed. I’ve pointed to a glaring contradiction between the Lead and the statements on the options. In the Lead it says “Both uses of the name "Ireland" are considered equally valid and neither can be selected as the most common per standard naming convention rules” however in the statement attached to Ireland (state) it states that “The name "Ireland" is the state's internationally-recognized name.” Both statements cannot be true, and based on all the available sources, the state's internationally-recognized name is the most common per standard naming convention rules as opposed to the strictly geographical use of the name. I perfectly willing to listen to counter arguments, but to try to establish that the strictly geographical use of the name is the most common per standard naming convention rules above that of the state's internationally-recognized name will require more than just the opinions of Editors because according to ArbCom, "Wikipedia determines the recognizability of a name by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject." -- Domer48 'fenian' 18:04, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Ok, based on input (and before this become discussion wars again), here's the biggest thing I see as a problem (plus or minus a few small fixes to the intro text on the ballot). It is the fact that ROI is being proposed as a solution but it's "cons" are not being presented. Now, for sake of simplicity, when you consider every single other solution and name (including disamb names), there's no real "cons" to these - the terms aren't loaded, they're appropriate per WP standards with whatever disamb stubs; the question between all these is just which one seems to be best. What this all comes down to is the fact that ROI is seen as a very negative term by some, while others see it as a completely appropriate term. I'm not going to go into who's right or wrong - there's no answer there, but I do consider my own entire experience with this moderation, at the start having no idea why "ROI" was being contested. After a few months, I know much better, but that's after a few months of getting very involved and reading the backhistories and the like. We're asking voters, who likely will not spend that time or have that time, to do the same.
Thus, what I need needs to be done is, in the summary, to clearly outline that this issue is primarily complicated by the term ROI, explaining that it is a proper descriptor of the country (and thus could be read to be positive in that light) but also brings back a history of UK-nationalism due to it being how the UK called from 1949 up to 1998 (after the Belfest Agreement), despite it not being the internationally recognized name. Here's what I propose changing that text to:
![]() | Summary of result of Ireland Collaboration ProjectThe name "Ireland" is considered to be ambiguous with respect to a number of meanings, but primarily between two entities: the island named "Ireland", and the state that occupies about 83% of it and comprising 26 of 32 counties, also named "Ireland". ( Northern Ireland, which comprises the remaining 6 counties and 17% of the island, is part of the United Kingdom.) Both uses of the name "Ireland" are considered equally valid, and attempts to determine which is most comment per standard naming convention rules has led to long debates (and edit wars) about the issues. Other naming conflicts that involve countries do not provide consistent advice for resolution of this issue (compare, for example, Luxembourg, Georgia (country), Tasmania, and People's Republic of China). Imprecision in naming may lead to equivocal statements (compare " Belfast is the second-largest city in Ireland" and " Cork is the second-largest city in Ireland", either of which may be true or not depending on how the word "Ireland" is taken). Since this also affects where the disambiguation page for the term "Ireland" will fall, that too is considered part of the naming conflict resolution issue. The major component of the issue is the phrase "Republic of Ireland", which is presently the current location of information for the 26-county state. "Republic of Ireland" is an official descriptor for the state, as per the 1948 Republic of Ireland Act, though the name of the state by both this Act and the international community is "Ireland". However, at the same time, "Republic of Ireland" was considered to be the name of the state by the United Kingdom in their 1949 Ireland Act, and remained such until the 1998 Belfast Agreement, upon which UK recognized the state's name as only "Ireland". The political disagreements between the UK and Ireland between 1949 and 1998 have led some to view the term "Republic of Ireland" as supporting UK nationalism and a negative term upon the state of Ireland, leading to lengthy debates with both wikilawyering and politically-charged discussion about the use of the term as the state's article name on Wikipedia. (For more information see Names of the Irish state.) As there is a stalemate in achieving consensus on the issue, the parties have agreed to use the results of a poll to all Wikipedia editors to resolve the matter. The six most likely options from the Ireland Collaboration Project are listed below, presented in no particular or preferential order. Regardless of the solution, appropriate hatnotes will be used to guide readers to the appropriate articles. Further discussion at the Ireland Collaboration Project will also take place before renaming to resolve other issues such as how the 26-county state named "Ireland" will be referred to in the text of other articles. See also
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This attempts to cover the ROI issue (which is truly the core of it - without it, either being completely acceptable or completely unacceptable, the solution would have been easy) in "quick readership" depth, enough to point people if they want to know more. This, along with linked-in userspace essays for those that want to supply them, I think will make the ballot as fair as it can ever possibly be. -- MASEM ( t) 18:36, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
The statement “Both uses of the name "Ireland" are considered equally valid” is semantics and a play on words. “The name "Ireland" is the state's internationally-recognized name” however to attempt to give parity of esteem to its geographical use per Standard naming conventions is disingenuous. To suggest that there has been attempts to determine which is the most common per standard naming convention rules is equally misleading, because there has been no attempts to determine which is most common, however I could be wrong and a diff to the discussion would certainly put me in my place.
The use of the Cork and Belfast analogy is also misleading, and I’ve addressed that above which has not been responded to. It has also been pointed out that this is an international encyclopaedia, and what the UK did and did not call the Irish State is irrelevant as the international community called the State Ireland. The fact that the UK now accept that the Irish State is called Ireland and use the name Ireland makes its relevance even more moot.
It has also been pointed out that the parties did not all agree to use the results of a poll too resolve the matter and this should be reflected in the wording. In addition all references to alternative proposals have now been omitted and why is that? -- Domer48 'fenian' 19:06, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Focusing only on the ROI statement, it can be reworded as follows:
The major component of the issue is the phrase "Republic of Ireland", which is presently the current location of information for the 26-county state. "Republic of Ireland" is an official description of the state, as per the 1948 Republic of Ireland Act, though the name of the state both under this Act and for the international community is "Ireland". However, at the same time, the phrase "Republic of Ireland" was considered to be the name of the state by the United Kingdom in its 1949 Ireland Act, and remained such until the 1998 Belfast Agreement, upon which the UK recognized the state's name as only "Ireland". The political disagreements between the UK and Ireland between 1949 and 1998 have led some to view the term "Republic of Ireland" as supporting UK nationalism and a negative term upon the state of Ireland. However the term "Republic of Ireland" is also commonly used today in a non-derogatory way within the state of Ireland's government and elsewhere (source to be supplied). The history of the term "Republic of Ireland" has led to lengthy debates with both wikilawyering and politically-charged discussion about the use of the term as the state's article name on Wikipedia. (For more information see Names of the Irish state.)
Scolaire suggested that there's a source to show the ROI term use today; this should help balance the fact that some see the term as negative, some see it as positive. -- MASEM ( t) 19:33, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
The example I used last year was this: On 17 September 2008, asked about plans for Fianna Fáil to organise in Northern Ireland, An Taoiseach, Brian Cowen said, "I am concentrating...on the strategic review of our own organisation within the Republic." - Irish Times, September 17, 2008 Scolaire ( talk) 19:44, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
I agree Snowded. That the term Republic of Ireland is used to distinguish between Ireland and Northern Ireland in given circumstances is not the same as Republic of Ireland being used for the name of the state when no distinction is required. For example, it would be unacceptable to say Dublin is in the Republic of Ireland according to the international community. The only ones who would insist on this phraseology are definitely pushing an old outdated POV, which even the UK has now rejected. Examples of Republic of Ireland being used to differentiate between Ireland and Northern Ireland, would include [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8] etc, etc… but to suggest that this equates to international recognition of the term for the name of the Irish state is unsupportable. The European Union which includes the UK note that the names of the Member States of the European Union must always be written and abbreviated according to the Interinstitutional Style Guide rules and that neither “Republic of Ireland” nor “Irish Republic” should be used when referring to the Irish State. This is also noted in Constitutional Law of 15 EU Member States (edition 6), by L. Prakke, C. A. J. M. Kortmann, Hans van den Brandhof, J. C. E. van den Brandhof, Kluwer, 2004, ISBN 9013012558, Pg.430. In addition, I would suggest adding this essay/article alongside the Names of the Irish state to help inform the opinions of readers.-- Domer48 'fenian' 20:38, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Per my comment above. -- Domer48 'fenian' 21:18, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
I'd like to point out that this phrase and remained such until the 1998 Belfast Agreement, upon which UK recognized the state's name as only "Ireland". is incorrect. The UK has not officially changed anything, and the 1949 Ireland Act is still in force. For me, this is a BIG reason not to use RoI, as it promulgates the official UK position. Unofficially, the UK will now accept the name of the sovereign country as Ireland - but this is more of a relaxing of an official position, than an actual new official position. -- HighKing ( talk) 21:27, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
![]() | Summary of result of Ireland Collaboration ProjectThe name "Ireland" is considered to be ambiguous with respect to a number of meanings, but primarily between two entities: the island named "Ireland", and the state that occupies about 83% of it and comprising 26 of 32 counties, also named "Ireland". ( Northern Ireland, which comprises the remaining 6 counties and 17% of the island, is part of the United Kingdom.) Both uses of the name "Ireland" are considered equally valid, and attempts to determine which is most common per standard naming convention rules has led to long debates (and edit wars) about the issues. Other naming conflicts that involve countries do not provide consistent advice for resolution of this issue (compare, for example, Luxembourg, Georgia (country), Tasmania, and People's Republic of China). Imprecision in naming may lead to equivocal statements; either Belfast or Cork could be considered the "second-largest city in Ireland" depending on how "Ireland" is taken. Since this also affects where the disambiguation page for the term "Ireland" will fall, that too is considered part of the naming conflict resolution issue. The major component of the issue is the phrase "Republic of Ireland", which is presently the current location of information for the 26-county state. "Republic of Ireland" is an official description of the state, as per the 1948 Republic of Ireland Act, though the name of the state both under the state's constitution and for the international community, particularly the European Union ( [11]) is "Ireland". However, at the same time, the phrase "Republic of Ireland" was considered to be the name of the state by the United Kingdom in its 1949 Ireland Act in order to distinguish the state from the island, and remained such until the 1998 Belfast Agreement, upon which the UK recognized the state's name as only "Ireland", though the Ireland Act still remains in effect. The political disagreements between the UK and Ireland between 1949 and 1998 have led some editors to view the phrase "Republic of Ireland" as supporting UK nationalism and a negative term upon the state of Ireland. However the term "Republic of Ireland" is also commonly used today in a non-derogatory way within the state of Ireland's government and elsewhere ( [12], [13]); as such, other editors see the phrase "Republic of Ireland" as an acceptable means to identify the state, and thus an appropriate solution to disambiguate it from the island. The history of the phrase "Republic of Ireland" has led to lengthy debates with both wikilawyering and politically-charged discussion about the use of the term as the state's article name on Wikipedia. (For more information see Names of the Irish state.) As there is a stalemate in achieving consensus on the issue, it has been decided to use the results of a poll of all Wikipedia editors to resolve the matter. The six most likely options from the Ireland Collaboration Project are listed below, presented in no particular or preferential order. Regardless of the solution, appropriate hatnotes will be used to guide readers to the appropriate articles. Further discussion at the Ireland Collaboration Project will also take place before renaming to resolve other issues such as how the 26-county state named "Ireland" will be referred to in the text of other articles. See also
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Update to include some of the points and references above. -- MASEM ( t) 21:58, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
I doubt you had a chance to read my comments above, Masem. I think most of the still apply here, particuly my last comment about focusing in on the Republic of Ireland "controversy" and losing sight of what the real question should be: how to organise *two* topic of the name name on this encyclopedia. If it was only the state article we had to organise the solution would be simple: it's name is "Ireland". The problem is that there are two things called "Ireland" and the vote is how we are to organise those *two* things. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid ( coṁrá) 22:04, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
![]() | Summary of result of Ireland Collaboration ProjectThe name "Ireland" is considered to be ambiguous with respect to a number of meanings, but primarily between two entities: the island named "Ireland", and the state that occupies about 83% of it and comprising 26 of 32 counties, also named "Ireland". ( Northern Ireland, which comprises the remaining 6 counties and 17% of the island, is part of the United Kingdom.) Both uses of the name "Ireland" are considered equally valid, and attempts to determine which is most common per standard naming convention rules has led to long debates (and edit wars) about the issues. Other naming conflicts that involve countries do not provide consistent advice for resolution of this issue (compare, for example, Luxembourg, Georgia (country), Tasmania, and People's Republic of China). Imprecision in naming may lead to equivocal statements; either Belfast or Cork could be considered the "second-largest city in Ireland" depending on how "Ireland" is taken. Since this also affects where the disambiguation page for the term "Ireland" will fall, that too is considered part of the naming conflict resolution issue. As there is a stalemate in achieving consensus on the issue, it has been decided to use the results of a poll of all Wikipedia editors to resolve the matter. The six most likely options, based on solutions used for other country names, from the Ireland Collaboration Project are listed below, presented in no particular or preferential order, along with links to essays from its participants which voters are strongly encouraged to read before making their choice. Regardless of the solution, appropriate hatnotes will be used to guide readers to the appropriate articles. Further discussion at the Ireland Collaboration Project will also take place before renaming to resolve other issues such as how the 26-county state named "Ireland" will be referred to in the text of other articles. See also
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If we nix mention of ROI... -- MASEM ( t) 22:11, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
MASEM thanks for the responce. Because the country's/States/Nations name is the internationally recognized name for it, does make that use of that term the most common english use, above and beyond the geograpicial use of the name. It is very disingenous to talk about "common sense", that the island and country name are comparatively equal in their claim to the name "Ireland" when one is clearly being used in a singular geograpicial sense while the other use covers the Nation, State, and country. I offered you the oppertunity to put me in my place by providing a diff for the discussion were this comparatively equal claim was discussed, with you yourself self saying "recognizing the volume of words generated in the years of debate here and what one can find externally, that the island and country name are comparatively equal" so were are the discussions? On ARBCom, you are again being very very disingenous, they outlined what the issue was, but did not pass comment on the validity of any claim. On the Belfast and Cork analogy this is also misleading, as this situation is not and never was a problem and could and was addressed in articles. It was the insistance of a hand full of editors to use RoI which caused the problem. There is no need for it. That the UK don't use RoI is very relevent, that they once did is not. That a hand full of editors want to use this as an excuse is of no concern to us. I also asked about the removal of the alternative options to the poll being removed, and saying that editors agreed to a poll and you have not addressed that, could you do so now? The diff on the discussion would also help a lot thanks. -- Domer48 'fenian' 07:57, 10 July 2009 (UTC)