![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | → | Archive 25 |
I am notifying you of recently-created templates {{ Medea}}, {{ Electra}} and {{ Iphigenia}}. I also did {{ Oedipus}} and {{ Pygmalion navbox}} a few months ago. Feel free to comment, reorganize or revise. There are probably a few more forthcoming when I get a chance.-- TonyTheTiger ( T/ C/ BIO/ WP:CHICAGO/ WP:FOUR) 13:31, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
As recently discussed, another editor recently moved " Latin War" to "Second Latin War" and then created an article titled "First Latin War" consisting of a brief recapitulation of the Battle of Lake Regillus and the Foedus Cassianum, together with a pair of campaign boxes added to the battle and what's now entitled " Latin War (498 – 493 BC)." Now a proposal has been made to merge the two articles, which is opposed by said editor.
The "Latin War" article mentions no battles, campaigns, or actions other than the Battle of Lake Regillus, which would support the description of the period as some sort of extended war, but instead assumes that the treaty concluded by Cassius with the Latins several years later somehow marked its end. The campaign box names Cassius as the Roman "leader" in the war, although of course he held no more authority than any of the other consuls during the period, and doesn't seem to have led any campaigns or fought in any battles against the Latins. There are no citations in the article, and it contains no other material that isn't already included in "Battle of Lake Regillus" and "Foedus Cassianum."
The article is more-or-less a translation of an article from Spanish Wikipedia [1], and lists two sources: Herman Kinder y Werner Hilgemann (2003). Atlas histórico mundial. Tomo I. Madrid, Ediciones Istmo, S.A. pp. 79, and José Manuel Roldán (1987). Historia de Roma. Tomo I: La República Romana. Madrid: Ediciones Cátedra, S.A. pp. 90-91; 101-104. Having examined both sources I can understand how one could reasonably infer from the words, "498-493 Guerra latina" in Kinder & Hilgemann that there was "a war" during that period, but there isn't any detail there; the whole subsection contains only three sentences, two of which are concerned with subsequent alliances, and nowhere does it mention the Battle of Lake Regillus, the specific treaty concluded by Cassius, or any of the persons involved. So I don't believe that Kinder & Hilgemann can be called a significant source for the article. Roldán is even less supportive, since the single paragraph concerned with these events specifically states that (at least according to tradition) armed hostilities ended with the Battle of Lake Regillus; of the treaty it says only that it shows the battle to have been less decisive than tradition reports.
But neither of these sources seems to be good support for the assertion that a "state of war" existed from 498 to 493, or that the treaty of Cassius ended the war (the article on the treaty does mention ending a war, but no account of the treaty says that it did, and the article doesn't mention any conflicts occurring after the Battle of Lake Regillus). None of them describe Cassius as "the Roman leader" during the war. As far as I can tell, while it's perfectly reasonable to say that the Battle of Lake Regillus was part of the background for the treaty, there's no evidence that a war was carried on after the battle, or that Cassius played any role in it, or that war would have continued had the treaty not been made.
I don't see any support for the contention that there was a war between Rome and the Latin League consisting of anything other than the Battle of Lake Regillus, which provides a good background and pretty much everything about the conflict. Nor does there appear to be anything to connect the treaty with the battle, or any grounds to assert that the treaty was what ended a war beginning with the Battle of Lake Regillus. This being the case, I think that there doesn't need to be an article about this supposed war. I'm not sure whether a campaign box is appropriate, but I am sure that it makes no sense to describe Cassius as "the Roman leader." I'd like to see whether there's any agreement on these points before what might become a protracted conflict with the other editor. P Aculeius ( talk) 13:57, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
The Featured Picture of the day for 24th April is one of the Colosseum (see below). It can be expected that the article will get a lot of attention, but as it has been semi-protected since December 2010 there shouldn't be an increase in vandalism. With the increased attention I thought people here might want a heads up in case the project wants to give the article a once over. Nev1 ( talk) 17:36, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
I have left messages in various places around WP asking for help in a re-write of the (awful, in my opinion) article Persecution of Christians in the Roman Empire and will be attempting a re-write over the next few weeks. I would appreciate any assistance from knowledgeable editors, it seems to me that working with others is a good way to achieve neutrality (but if I have to re-do it by myself, I will). Thanks Smeat75 ( talk) 03:13, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
Deletion discussion ongoing about whether or not this article page should exist.
Please see deletion discussion page at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Human–goat sexual intercourse, if you wish to voice your opinion. — Cirt ( talk) 15:41, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
The WikiProject Report would like to focus on WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome for a Signpost article. This is an excellent opportunity to draw attention to your efforts and attract new members to the project. Would you be willing to participate in an interview? If so, here are the questions for the interview. Just add your response below each question and feel free to skip any questions that you don't feel comfortable answering. Multiple editors will have an opportunity to respond to the interview questions, so be sure to sign your answers. If you know anyone else who would like to participate in the interview, please share this with them. Have a great day. –Mabeenot ( talk) 01:18, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
I have been contemplating creating {{ Aesop}}, which would largely be a template about his fables. I am not sure about how to organize the template. Should I use Perry Index numbering or alphabetical? Should I include a section for Aesop's_Fables#Fables_wrongly_attributed_to_Aesop?-- TonyTheTiger ( T/ C/ BIO/ WP:CHICAGO/ WP:FOUR) 14:11, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
I am thinking that if we are going to include all of these other authors, then the template should be renamed {{ Aesop's Fables}}. Comments?-- TonyTheTiger ( T/ C/ BIO/ WP:CHICAGO/ WP:FOUR) 07:39, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
I have reverted to the earlier version and deployed the template to all the linked articles except the apocryphal ones.-- TonyTheTiger ( T/ C/ BIO/ WP:CHICAGO/ WP:FOUR) 21:51, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
(Citing a discussion on Cynwolfe's talkpage, any of your input is greatly appreciated.)
Hi Cynwolfe! As you know I am currently rating the unassessed articles in the Wikiproject Classical Greece & Rome. Following a number of additions from the Oxyrhynchus Papyri (see the bot log somewhere halfway down), I had the luminous idea of auto-assessing these "low importance" articles (as well as for example the "Legio ...", Milecastle, Classis, Cohors, "Battle of ..." and Lex articles). I think the TinucherianBot may be able to do this. The method could even be extended to articles in certain categories. What do you think about this? Bahnheckl ( talk) 17:56, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
Done! 430 articles assessed. Bahnheckl ( talk) 07:31, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
This is an obvious anachronism, but the image of this is raised in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Catilinarian_Conspiracy by the following phrase: "Then they would name themselves the consuls for 65 BC". Could this be replaced by something closer to what somebody could actually have said? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.195.253.182 ( talk) 16:22, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at
Talk:Byzantine Empire#The intro sentence. —
Sowlos
13:39, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
I have just expanded {{ Odyssey navbox}} and created {{ Iliad navbox}} and {{ Aeneid}}. I would love some help organizing and formatting these.-- TonyTheTiger ( T/ C/ BIO/ WP:CHICAGO/ WP:FOUR) 17:52, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
An editor edited Template:Odyssey navbox by removing removing one book. I disagree with this edit. Opinions requested.-- TonyTheTiger ( T/ C/ BIO/ WP:CHICAGO/ WP:FOUR) 19:23, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
( edit conflict) I guess for that particular book it's a question of whether or not the navbox should include everything on Wikipedia related to the Odyssey or not. The book is only one of a gaggle of ridiculous "studies" that propose the Trojan saga and it's related myths are not Mediterranean. I wouldn't include it, but I think that it really does come down to the question of the template's scope, and I'm too busy right now to really give it significant thought. Though I will say that with these ancient epic navboxes it would be wise to clearly segregate the ancient and scholarly topics from modern adaptations and the like. Most readers who turn to Wikipedia for information about Homeric poetry will be trying to grasp a complex topic on its own terms, and sorting through the different registers of this template would not be the easiest process. Perhaps when I get the chance I'll sort out the Homer template as I'd envisioned last year and we can have a "Homeric poetry" navbox alongside "Reception of the Odyssey" and "Reception of the Iliad" navboxes that would include much of the material that you've organized. davidiad { t } 17:08, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
Again, I appeal to the members of this project for some outside opinions on this article. As stated on the talk page for Latin War (498–493 BC), there is no evidence for an ongoing war between 498 and 493 BC. No ancient authority supports military operations beyond the Battle of Lake Regillus, which was a failed attempt by Lucius Tarquinius Superbus to regain the Roman kingdom, probably in 498, but according to some authorities in 496. There don't seem to have been any other battles, nor an expectation of other battles, nor is there any justification for describing Spurius Cassius Viscellinus as "the" Roman commander during this non-existent war, against unnamed Latin opponents, under unknown Latin commanders, with unknown results, not mentioned in any ancient histories. No ancient authorities state that the treaty between Rome and the Latins concluded by Cassius in 493 had anything to do with ending a war, or that Cassius led troops against the Latins then or at any other time.
This article simply infers the existence of a war from two events: the Battle of Lake Regillus, and the Foedus Cassianum. Evidently it's not the first time that's been done, but none of the increasingly large number of sources cited (most of them from web sites, and all of them giving only an overview of early Roman history) discuss how they arrived at such a conclusion or provide any evidence of additional engagements, military strategies, commanders, forces, or anything else. Without a single scholarly source that explains why the Battle of Lake Regillus is supposed to have been part of an ongoing war not mentioned by ancient historians, or why it concludes that the treaty of 493 marked the end of a war, I think we have to conclude that there isn't any evidence of such a war, and that this article shouldn't exist. P Aculeius ( talk) 04:14, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
See
question-problem here.
OK at the
Albion and
Hibernia articles one finds (don't know about the validity of these claims but I'm guessing they're valid, strong):
Q-Celtic name *Īweriū & Proto-Celtic * Alb-i̯en- .I.e.
Glides w & j or anyway something like that;Greek usage of ου to stand for w- /w/ (clasical Latin V)) is already known to me;but used also for Latin J (i.e glide-semivowel, consonantal I)?!?!? When at the same time as far as as I know Latin orthography-spelling of these words didn't have glides, i.e. Albion (ok i here might be a glide but the b isn't dropped), Hibernia (again the second i that might be a glide is irrelevant)?How about the H (-addition?) in the Latin spelling-form?Moreover are we sure that the ου in the two words in Greek isn't really just an ou, e.g. just a changed orthography & pronunciation? How about changes of β-b from sounding /b/ to sounding /v/? Etc etc etc.
So despite the Proto-, P-, Q- (or whatever) Celtic reconstruction above and all other stuff,I'm still not exactly sure what Ptolemy meant, if indeed this orthography is his and not of a later scribe-copist...Btw are there any other Geography editions that use in these words other letters-symbols instead of ουs? How about other writers of the period using ουs to spell these words?
You get the picture.So concluding and repeating the question(s):
what is the correct in this case transliteration of Ἰουρνία & Ἀλουίων? Is there in fact a correct one? And how would one exlpain in a article here these forms vs the Ablion-Ierne ones???Should one in fact even try to explain this or is it to hard or conjectural to do so?Are there any people here that really, really know their stuff on these issues??? Thanx!
Thanatos|
talk
23:29, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
Neither Iouernia nor Alouion are Greek words - they are foreign words transliterated into Greek, just like Ouaros for Varus - so what you're asking for does not make sense. Ptolemy is not changing anything, he's doing his best to represent what these two foreign words sound like in Greek orthography. -- Nicknack009 ( talk) 18:54, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
Albion is not a Celtic word, it belongs to the so called Mediterranean substrate. In fact this word is to be found in many parts of western Europe and beyond: its meaning is uncertain. It may have denoted mountains and valleys, then rivers, fortified places etc. at different times and places. Albion was the name of the highest mountain in the Eastern Alps (Strabo). Alp too may be just another form of Alb. in Spain there are forms such Alawa, Alawon, Alagon, Aragon, Alaba, Alba etc. Also we find many Albula mounts and rivers in Switzerland and Italy.
I have researched this topic a bit, using Italian and Spanish scholarship. Italian linguists were the first to study in depth place names and their distribution and possible origin. V. Bertoldi, F. Ribezzo, C. Battisti, G. Alessio etc. who studied with Austrian Meyer Lubke at the end of nineteenth cent. Many of Alessio's works are online and if you can read Italian you will find plenty of interesting material and new perspectives. In his article on the name of Brindisi he gives plenty of info about all the brent- of Europe, Britain included: simply from deer, i.e. deer's head and horns, for the shape. Not a Celtic word either. The most common Med. roots are mal-, mat/med-, vel-, tul-, garg-, kapr-/k(e)rp, penn-/pinn-, pal-/pol- all meaning rock or mount or ravine. E. g. in Belgium Malmedy, Montmedy, German Malmünd same. In Italian Magliana, Meduno, anc. Medullia Maleventum, etc. Spanish Medulas. In Belgium Sambre, in Italy Sambro, rivers (the so called ancient Eur. hydronymy), hundreds of cases.
For your topic it may be interesting: Ullapool where the first U is reflecting a spirant affricate, from Volas Sinus (Ουόλας κόλπος), precisely that of Latin volaemum, a species of pear (Cato Agr. 7; Verg. Georg. II 88), Volaminia (always Alessio's genius). Seen in the Carmen Saliare Lucia Volaminia (Varro LL IX 61)(in John the Lydian Βάρρος!). Probably meaning in the curved shape of a sickle, thence good, abundant, Latin vola. Aldrasto11 ( talk) 06:11, 26 April 2013 (UTC) I wish to add that I think the original form was probably a w, then it changed to v and v to b. This happened in Spain where the most anc. f. att. is Alawa. Then the a fell lw changed to v, then to b. So now in Basque we have albarico a steep slope in Italy Albaro place name of a hill. But in other areas and different times the process may be the opposite as in the instance of Ullapool. Aldrasto11 ( talk) 10:55, 26 April 2013 (UTC) It is an issue similar to that of the voiced aspirates in Italic. E.g. in Oscan and Umbrian one finds Tifernus = Lat. Tiberius. It is highly probable the Oscan "f" was not our voiceless spirant but it was voiced and sounded like our "v". See Stuart Mill's book online. The rules and problems of IE phonology though cannot apply to substrate words, at least in the stage in which they were not used by Indoeuropean speakers. Aldrasto11 ( talk) 13:05, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
Of course the general public and Indoeuropeanist academics are not happy when it is shown to them that their own ethnonym, place names etc. are not of IE origin. This is true in Spain and Italy too, where recently there is an attempt, already failed in my view, to prove that all place names are IE and Celtic. But this fact, though likely to stir up long controversies, is in my view proven beyond doubt. Among many other arguments the law of the greater area or of side areas (also known as Bartoli's law) leaves no chances that Albion, Britain etc. are a Celtic word. I have researched the topic of European toponymy and just reading Strabo, Ptolemy, the Itenerarium Antonini etc. will give everyone who is not prejudiced certainty thereof. It is very simple: when you find a word spread over an area greater than its synoyms of IE origin it means it is the more ancient form. Now Albion is to be found in Latium (Alba Longa) in Liguria (Albion Ingaunum, now Albenga, Albion Intemelium, now Ventimiglia), on the Alps (Albion Oros in the Julian Alps: Strabo). In the Balkans we have Albania, Albona-Labin in Histria (=in Latium Alba and Labicum). In Spain I have already written above one finds Alawa as the most ancient form, certainly Basque. Hubschmid ("Lenguas no indoeuropeas: testimonios romanicos" in Enciclopedia Linguistica Hispanica t. I Madrid 1960 p. 480) believes from Alaba which originated the province name of Alava and ancient Alauwna in the Basque Country. Corresondences in in Alava Oviedo and Alaveiro> Aveiro in Portugal and Alabos a river in Sicily and Alebus near Elche (Avienus) and Alagon formerly named Alavon. Cf. Liburni, Libarna all related to rock. Albula: there are 4 rivers in Italy named A. one of them being the anc. name of the Tiber. In Switzerland the Albula is a mountain massif and a river too. So the original meaning of this word was rock, mount, but in time it came to be associated with rivers too. To state that Albion is related to Lat. albus white looks plainly ridiculous. The same phenomenon we see in aran, valley, but also mountain, river etc. In Spain we have a valley named Aran Valley. Aran is one of the Hebrides too. Aranos>in Italy Arno. One would also benefit from a glance to Krahe's tables on the river names. Sometimes being confronted with a heavy amount of evidence of place names and of the nature of their suffixations, i.e. word formation, opens one's mind. Seeing them as IE looks purely phantastic. Vennemann has shown this language was agglutinative. In fact the problem of Indoeuropeanists is that they focus attention on the study of one word in a limited context and avoid taking into account whether this word is to be found elsewhere and what its history, phonetic changes, suffixations and lastly likely meaning could have been.
Coming to brendos, word denoting the deer (all are agreed on this as it is attested by ancient sources: Hesichios: brendon elaphos; Stephanos of Byz.: brention para' Messapiois ee tou elaphou kephalee'; Isid. Orig. XV I 49 ff.: Brundisium quod Brunda caput cervi dicitur, quod et cornua videantur et caput et lingua in positione ipsius urbis; Ennius: brunda caput cervi veteres dixere coloni) toponyms, ethnonyms and phytonyms from all over Europe and Asia Minor confirm that the word is not IE, (Alessio's examples) 1) for the frequent presence of Anarian suffixes (Brentesion/ Brundisium, Brintesia river of Veneto, now Brenta, Brentista, Cypr. brenthis/brentix a sort of lattuce, old Chiavennese brentallum with characteristic Ligurian genitive, Brentani, Frentānī, Prettanoi', Bruttātēs, Tusc. brentine; 2) most typical Medit. phonetical uncertainties found in relics, as the evolution of -nt to -nd or -nth in the Aegean area, the labial quality of the preconsonantic nasal (Brentioi/ Brettioi), the vicissitude of e/i (or the evolution of e into i, when followed by -nt, a marker of substrate in Albanian and Rumanian) whence the dark undistinguished vowel rendered as u (brendo/brunda) and morever the evolution voiced> voiceless> aspirate> spirant of the Tyrrhenic area (Frento, Frentani, frõns=fronda). Cf. also Tyrrhenic suffix -entum versus Aegean -inthos e.g. menta, minthē. The homophonous IE theme found in Greek brenthos, pride, brenthuomai , I sweel up, may have caused this fixation of the brenth- type in the Aegean area.
Derived ethnonyms: Brentioi (Dion. Perieg. 362, cf. Brentioi: ethnos en Italiai Hesichius) commonly known as Brettioi, Bruttioi, Brouttioi, in Lat. Bruttii, Brittii, Bruttiani or Bruttiates (Ennius) whence the name of the ager Brittius or Bruttium, Brettia (Polybius I 56), probably so named after a totem animal, the deer. To them correspond in Umbrain territory the Foro-brentani, in the Picenic area, to the north of the river Frento, now Fortore, the Frentani.
Same structure in the name of the Prettanoi' (Diod. V 21, 28; Strabo II 75, 117; IV 200) or Brettanoi', in Lat. Britanni or Brittanni, also as Brittones (Juv. XV 124) cf. Neoceltic Prytein, who gave their name to the Brettia (St. Byz.) or Brentia, Britannia or Brittannia. A tribe was named Carvetii (CIL VII 325) Celtic for deer from *carvos=Lat. cervus with suffix -etii like Helvetii.
In conclusion one can say that it is impossible to answer the questions posed by historical liguistics with a limited perspective. To render the idea of the issue at hands I shall use Alessio's own example: it is like saying that camelus is a Latin word. While this is correct it is also obviously wrong, since we know camelus derives from words of Near Eastern languages denoting the animal camel. Aldrasto11 ( talk) 02:29, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
Thanks to those who commented. I am aware of the need of being concise in an article. Just wish to remark two things. Meid , Koch etc. go for white, but in all likelihood the word did not mean white. It meant elevated place, mount etc. I think we can say it with certainty for two reasons.
1.The word has been used to denote places or objects which are not at all white. Alba Longa: the Alban hills are of a bluish grey colour. The Albula = Tiber is yellow (flavus). In Germany the Elbe too is not white. The Alps are not white (except the highest peaks when snowed).
2. Albona-Labin: this is one of the lucky cases in which we have a translation of the word we are investigating into another language. While Albona is a case of alb- + suffix denoting a town (Verona, Arona, Arrabona etc.), or more precisely a site on/above something else, its Croatian correspondent word is Labin. Now this is commonly acknowledged as a case of the lip/lib/lep/lap Med. word meaning rock. In Latium we have Alba Longa and not too far away Labicum, town destroyed by the Romans in 418 BC, gave its name to the Via Labicana: it was located on a steep hill (probably Montecompatri). We meet also the Lepini Montes, the Lipari Island, Libarna, a settlement located among steep mounts in Liguria and ethnonym Liburni, people who lived in a rocky region not far from Albona. Another way to prove that Labin means rocky place (it is in fact) is considering Lat. words lepis hare and French lapin rabbit: French received the substrate word through another medium than Lat., but the word is clearly the same, meaning animal who likes living among rocks.
A last remark from Giese's review of Hubschmid's book Sardische Studien Bern 1953: "A Celtic word can be considered of IE source only if it is known its parent word in other IE languages. Some Preceltic words have been diffused by means of Gallic. In the Celtic languages of the islands there are Preceltic elements taken up from the Preceltic dwellers (esp. in Irish); it is though important to acknowledge that the respective Celtic peoples may have borrowed words when they were still living on the continent, and that these may be common with Gallic." Aldrasto11 ( talk) 10:36, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
Doctissimi, is this conversation still going on? It seems to have served much of its purpose and run much of its course. davidiad { t } 23:47, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
My intention was and is to end this conversation here, and I accept Davidiad's advice. This being the Anglophone WK though, I owe it to readers: 1) at least a citation: G. Alessio "Sul nome di Brindisi" p. 219 n. 33: "The name of the Island, formerly known as Albion, from Medit. alba highland..." in Archivio Storico Pugliese 1955 VIII 3. p. 211-238. 2) I must reassure them that I do not ignore Lombardy was settled (also, and lastly, before the Romans) by Celtic tribes and these gave many names to the places they settled in their own language. I will not comment further on my last interlocutor's competence in the field of toponymy, what he wrote here above gives a fairly clear measure in and by itself. Aldrasto11 ( talk) 04:10, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | → | Archive 25 |
I am notifying you of recently-created templates {{ Medea}}, {{ Electra}} and {{ Iphigenia}}. I also did {{ Oedipus}} and {{ Pygmalion navbox}} a few months ago. Feel free to comment, reorganize or revise. There are probably a few more forthcoming when I get a chance.-- TonyTheTiger ( T/ C/ BIO/ WP:CHICAGO/ WP:FOUR) 13:31, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
As recently discussed, another editor recently moved " Latin War" to "Second Latin War" and then created an article titled "First Latin War" consisting of a brief recapitulation of the Battle of Lake Regillus and the Foedus Cassianum, together with a pair of campaign boxes added to the battle and what's now entitled " Latin War (498 – 493 BC)." Now a proposal has been made to merge the two articles, which is opposed by said editor.
The "Latin War" article mentions no battles, campaigns, or actions other than the Battle of Lake Regillus, which would support the description of the period as some sort of extended war, but instead assumes that the treaty concluded by Cassius with the Latins several years later somehow marked its end. The campaign box names Cassius as the Roman "leader" in the war, although of course he held no more authority than any of the other consuls during the period, and doesn't seem to have led any campaigns or fought in any battles against the Latins. There are no citations in the article, and it contains no other material that isn't already included in "Battle of Lake Regillus" and "Foedus Cassianum."
The article is more-or-less a translation of an article from Spanish Wikipedia [1], and lists two sources: Herman Kinder y Werner Hilgemann (2003). Atlas histórico mundial. Tomo I. Madrid, Ediciones Istmo, S.A. pp. 79, and José Manuel Roldán (1987). Historia de Roma. Tomo I: La República Romana. Madrid: Ediciones Cátedra, S.A. pp. 90-91; 101-104. Having examined both sources I can understand how one could reasonably infer from the words, "498-493 Guerra latina" in Kinder & Hilgemann that there was "a war" during that period, but there isn't any detail there; the whole subsection contains only three sentences, two of which are concerned with subsequent alliances, and nowhere does it mention the Battle of Lake Regillus, the specific treaty concluded by Cassius, or any of the persons involved. So I don't believe that Kinder & Hilgemann can be called a significant source for the article. Roldán is even less supportive, since the single paragraph concerned with these events specifically states that (at least according to tradition) armed hostilities ended with the Battle of Lake Regillus; of the treaty it says only that it shows the battle to have been less decisive than tradition reports.
But neither of these sources seems to be good support for the assertion that a "state of war" existed from 498 to 493, or that the treaty of Cassius ended the war (the article on the treaty does mention ending a war, but no account of the treaty says that it did, and the article doesn't mention any conflicts occurring after the Battle of Lake Regillus). None of them describe Cassius as "the Roman leader" during the war. As far as I can tell, while it's perfectly reasonable to say that the Battle of Lake Regillus was part of the background for the treaty, there's no evidence that a war was carried on after the battle, or that Cassius played any role in it, or that war would have continued had the treaty not been made.
I don't see any support for the contention that there was a war between Rome and the Latin League consisting of anything other than the Battle of Lake Regillus, which provides a good background and pretty much everything about the conflict. Nor does there appear to be anything to connect the treaty with the battle, or any grounds to assert that the treaty was what ended a war beginning with the Battle of Lake Regillus. This being the case, I think that there doesn't need to be an article about this supposed war. I'm not sure whether a campaign box is appropriate, but I am sure that it makes no sense to describe Cassius as "the Roman leader." I'd like to see whether there's any agreement on these points before what might become a protracted conflict with the other editor. P Aculeius ( talk) 13:57, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
The Featured Picture of the day for 24th April is one of the Colosseum (see below). It can be expected that the article will get a lot of attention, but as it has been semi-protected since December 2010 there shouldn't be an increase in vandalism. With the increased attention I thought people here might want a heads up in case the project wants to give the article a once over. Nev1 ( talk) 17:36, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
I have left messages in various places around WP asking for help in a re-write of the (awful, in my opinion) article Persecution of Christians in the Roman Empire and will be attempting a re-write over the next few weeks. I would appreciate any assistance from knowledgeable editors, it seems to me that working with others is a good way to achieve neutrality (but if I have to re-do it by myself, I will). Thanks Smeat75 ( talk) 03:13, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
Deletion discussion ongoing about whether or not this article page should exist.
Please see deletion discussion page at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Human–goat sexual intercourse, if you wish to voice your opinion. — Cirt ( talk) 15:41, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
The WikiProject Report would like to focus on WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome for a Signpost article. This is an excellent opportunity to draw attention to your efforts and attract new members to the project. Would you be willing to participate in an interview? If so, here are the questions for the interview. Just add your response below each question and feel free to skip any questions that you don't feel comfortable answering. Multiple editors will have an opportunity to respond to the interview questions, so be sure to sign your answers. If you know anyone else who would like to participate in the interview, please share this with them. Have a great day. –Mabeenot ( talk) 01:18, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
I have been contemplating creating {{ Aesop}}, which would largely be a template about his fables. I am not sure about how to organize the template. Should I use Perry Index numbering or alphabetical? Should I include a section for Aesop's_Fables#Fables_wrongly_attributed_to_Aesop?-- TonyTheTiger ( T/ C/ BIO/ WP:CHICAGO/ WP:FOUR) 14:11, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
I am thinking that if we are going to include all of these other authors, then the template should be renamed {{ Aesop's Fables}}. Comments?-- TonyTheTiger ( T/ C/ BIO/ WP:CHICAGO/ WP:FOUR) 07:39, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
I have reverted to the earlier version and deployed the template to all the linked articles except the apocryphal ones.-- TonyTheTiger ( T/ C/ BIO/ WP:CHICAGO/ WP:FOUR) 21:51, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
(Citing a discussion on Cynwolfe's talkpage, any of your input is greatly appreciated.)
Hi Cynwolfe! As you know I am currently rating the unassessed articles in the Wikiproject Classical Greece & Rome. Following a number of additions from the Oxyrhynchus Papyri (see the bot log somewhere halfway down), I had the luminous idea of auto-assessing these "low importance" articles (as well as for example the "Legio ...", Milecastle, Classis, Cohors, "Battle of ..." and Lex articles). I think the TinucherianBot may be able to do this. The method could even be extended to articles in certain categories. What do you think about this? Bahnheckl ( talk) 17:56, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
Done! 430 articles assessed. Bahnheckl ( talk) 07:31, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
This is an obvious anachronism, but the image of this is raised in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Catilinarian_Conspiracy by the following phrase: "Then they would name themselves the consuls for 65 BC". Could this be replaced by something closer to what somebody could actually have said? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.195.253.182 ( talk) 16:22, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at
Talk:Byzantine Empire#The intro sentence. —
Sowlos
13:39, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
I have just expanded {{ Odyssey navbox}} and created {{ Iliad navbox}} and {{ Aeneid}}. I would love some help organizing and formatting these.-- TonyTheTiger ( T/ C/ BIO/ WP:CHICAGO/ WP:FOUR) 17:52, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
An editor edited Template:Odyssey navbox by removing removing one book. I disagree with this edit. Opinions requested.-- TonyTheTiger ( T/ C/ BIO/ WP:CHICAGO/ WP:FOUR) 19:23, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
( edit conflict) I guess for that particular book it's a question of whether or not the navbox should include everything on Wikipedia related to the Odyssey or not. The book is only one of a gaggle of ridiculous "studies" that propose the Trojan saga and it's related myths are not Mediterranean. I wouldn't include it, but I think that it really does come down to the question of the template's scope, and I'm too busy right now to really give it significant thought. Though I will say that with these ancient epic navboxes it would be wise to clearly segregate the ancient and scholarly topics from modern adaptations and the like. Most readers who turn to Wikipedia for information about Homeric poetry will be trying to grasp a complex topic on its own terms, and sorting through the different registers of this template would not be the easiest process. Perhaps when I get the chance I'll sort out the Homer template as I'd envisioned last year and we can have a "Homeric poetry" navbox alongside "Reception of the Odyssey" and "Reception of the Iliad" navboxes that would include much of the material that you've organized. davidiad { t } 17:08, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
Again, I appeal to the members of this project for some outside opinions on this article. As stated on the talk page for Latin War (498–493 BC), there is no evidence for an ongoing war between 498 and 493 BC. No ancient authority supports military operations beyond the Battle of Lake Regillus, which was a failed attempt by Lucius Tarquinius Superbus to regain the Roman kingdom, probably in 498, but according to some authorities in 496. There don't seem to have been any other battles, nor an expectation of other battles, nor is there any justification for describing Spurius Cassius Viscellinus as "the" Roman commander during this non-existent war, against unnamed Latin opponents, under unknown Latin commanders, with unknown results, not mentioned in any ancient histories. No ancient authorities state that the treaty between Rome and the Latins concluded by Cassius in 493 had anything to do with ending a war, or that Cassius led troops against the Latins then or at any other time.
This article simply infers the existence of a war from two events: the Battle of Lake Regillus, and the Foedus Cassianum. Evidently it's not the first time that's been done, but none of the increasingly large number of sources cited (most of them from web sites, and all of them giving only an overview of early Roman history) discuss how they arrived at such a conclusion or provide any evidence of additional engagements, military strategies, commanders, forces, or anything else. Without a single scholarly source that explains why the Battle of Lake Regillus is supposed to have been part of an ongoing war not mentioned by ancient historians, or why it concludes that the treaty of 493 marked the end of a war, I think we have to conclude that there isn't any evidence of such a war, and that this article shouldn't exist. P Aculeius ( talk) 04:14, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
See
question-problem here.
OK at the
Albion and
Hibernia articles one finds (don't know about the validity of these claims but I'm guessing they're valid, strong):
Q-Celtic name *Īweriū & Proto-Celtic * Alb-i̯en- .I.e.
Glides w & j or anyway something like that;Greek usage of ου to stand for w- /w/ (clasical Latin V)) is already known to me;but used also for Latin J (i.e glide-semivowel, consonantal I)?!?!? When at the same time as far as as I know Latin orthography-spelling of these words didn't have glides, i.e. Albion (ok i here might be a glide but the b isn't dropped), Hibernia (again the second i that might be a glide is irrelevant)?How about the H (-addition?) in the Latin spelling-form?Moreover are we sure that the ου in the two words in Greek isn't really just an ou, e.g. just a changed orthography & pronunciation? How about changes of β-b from sounding /b/ to sounding /v/? Etc etc etc.
So despite the Proto-, P-, Q- (or whatever) Celtic reconstruction above and all other stuff,I'm still not exactly sure what Ptolemy meant, if indeed this orthography is his and not of a later scribe-copist...Btw are there any other Geography editions that use in these words other letters-symbols instead of ουs? How about other writers of the period using ουs to spell these words?
You get the picture.So concluding and repeating the question(s):
what is the correct in this case transliteration of Ἰουρνία & Ἀλουίων? Is there in fact a correct one? And how would one exlpain in a article here these forms vs the Ablion-Ierne ones???Should one in fact even try to explain this or is it to hard or conjectural to do so?Are there any people here that really, really know their stuff on these issues??? Thanx!
Thanatos|
talk
23:29, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
Neither Iouernia nor Alouion are Greek words - they are foreign words transliterated into Greek, just like Ouaros for Varus - so what you're asking for does not make sense. Ptolemy is not changing anything, he's doing his best to represent what these two foreign words sound like in Greek orthography. -- Nicknack009 ( talk) 18:54, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
Albion is not a Celtic word, it belongs to the so called Mediterranean substrate. In fact this word is to be found in many parts of western Europe and beyond: its meaning is uncertain. It may have denoted mountains and valleys, then rivers, fortified places etc. at different times and places. Albion was the name of the highest mountain in the Eastern Alps (Strabo). Alp too may be just another form of Alb. in Spain there are forms such Alawa, Alawon, Alagon, Aragon, Alaba, Alba etc. Also we find many Albula mounts and rivers in Switzerland and Italy.
I have researched this topic a bit, using Italian and Spanish scholarship. Italian linguists were the first to study in depth place names and their distribution and possible origin. V. Bertoldi, F. Ribezzo, C. Battisti, G. Alessio etc. who studied with Austrian Meyer Lubke at the end of nineteenth cent. Many of Alessio's works are online and if you can read Italian you will find plenty of interesting material and new perspectives. In his article on the name of Brindisi he gives plenty of info about all the brent- of Europe, Britain included: simply from deer, i.e. deer's head and horns, for the shape. Not a Celtic word either. The most common Med. roots are mal-, mat/med-, vel-, tul-, garg-, kapr-/k(e)rp, penn-/pinn-, pal-/pol- all meaning rock or mount or ravine. E. g. in Belgium Malmedy, Montmedy, German Malmünd same. In Italian Magliana, Meduno, anc. Medullia Maleventum, etc. Spanish Medulas. In Belgium Sambre, in Italy Sambro, rivers (the so called ancient Eur. hydronymy), hundreds of cases.
For your topic it may be interesting: Ullapool where the first U is reflecting a spirant affricate, from Volas Sinus (Ουόλας κόλπος), precisely that of Latin volaemum, a species of pear (Cato Agr. 7; Verg. Georg. II 88), Volaminia (always Alessio's genius). Seen in the Carmen Saliare Lucia Volaminia (Varro LL IX 61)(in John the Lydian Βάρρος!). Probably meaning in the curved shape of a sickle, thence good, abundant, Latin vola. Aldrasto11 ( talk) 06:11, 26 April 2013 (UTC) I wish to add that I think the original form was probably a w, then it changed to v and v to b. This happened in Spain where the most anc. f. att. is Alawa. Then the a fell lw changed to v, then to b. So now in Basque we have albarico a steep slope in Italy Albaro place name of a hill. But in other areas and different times the process may be the opposite as in the instance of Ullapool. Aldrasto11 ( talk) 10:55, 26 April 2013 (UTC) It is an issue similar to that of the voiced aspirates in Italic. E.g. in Oscan and Umbrian one finds Tifernus = Lat. Tiberius. It is highly probable the Oscan "f" was not our voiceless spirant but it was voiced and sounded like our "v". See Stuart Mill's book online. The rules and problems of IE phonology though cannot apply to substrate words, at least in the stage in which they were not used by Indoeuropean speakers. Aldrasto11 ( talk) 13:05, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
Of course the general public and Indoeuropeanist academics are not happy when it is shown to them that their own ethnonym, place names etc. are not of IE origin. This is true in Spain and Italy too, where recently there is an attempt, already failed in my view, to prove that all place names are IE and Celtic. But this fact, though likely to stir up long controversies, is in my view proven beyond doubt. Among many other arguments the law of the greater area or of side areas (also known as Bartoli's law) leaves no chances that Albion, Britain etc. are a Celtic word. I have researched the topic of European toponymy and just reading Strabo, Ptolemy, the Itenerarium Antonini etc. will give everyone who is not prejudiced certainty thereof. It is very simple: when you find a word spread over an area greater than its synoyms of IE origin it means it is the more ancient form. Now Albion is to be found in Latium (Alba Longa) in Liguria (Albion Ingaunum, now Albenga, Albion Intemelium, now Ventimiglia), on the Alps (Albion Oros in the Julian Alps: Strabo). In the Balkans we have Albania, Albona-Labin in Histria (=in Latium Alba and Labicum). In Spain I have already written above one finds Alawa as the most ancient form, certainly Basque. Hubschmid ("Lenguas no indoeuropeas: testimonios romanicos" in Enciclopedia Linguistica Hispanica t. I Madrid 1960 p. 480) believes from Alaba which originated the province name of Alava and ancient Alauwna in the Basque Country. Corresondences in in Alava Oviedo and Alaveiro> Aveiro in Portugal and Alabos a river in Sicily and Alebus near Elche (Avienus) and Alagon formerly named Alavon. Cf. Liburni, Libarna all related to rock. Albula: there are 4 rivers in Italy named A. one of them being the anc. name of the Tiber. In Switzerland the Albula is a mountain massif and a river too. So the original meaning of this word was rock, mount, but in time it came to be associated with rivers too. To state that Albion is related to Lat. albus white looks plainly ridiculous. The same phenomenon we see in aran, valley, but also mountain, river etc. In Spain we have a valley named Aran Valley. Aran is one of the Hebrides too. Aranos>in Italy Arno. One would also benefit from a glance to Krahe's tables on the river names. Sometimes being confronted with a heavy amount of evidence of place names and of the nature of their suffixations, i.e. word formation, opens one's mind. Seeing them as IE looks purely phantastic. Vennemann has shown this language was agglutinative. In fact the problem of Indoeuropeanists is that they focus attention on the study of one word in a limited context and avoid taking into account whether this word is to be found elsewhere and what its history, phonetic changes, suffixations and lastly likely meaning could have been.
Coming to brendos, word denoting the deer (all are agreed on this as it is attested by ancient sources: Hesichios: brendon elaphos; Stephanos of Byz.: brention para' Messapiois ee tou elaphou kephalee'; Isid. Orig. XV I 49 ff.: Brundisium quod Brunda caput cervi dicitur, quod et cornua videantur et caput et lingua in positione ipsius urbis; Ennius: brunda caput cervi veteres dixere coloni) toponyms, ethnonyms and phytonyms from all over Europe and Asia Minor confirm that the word is not IE, (Alessio's examples) 1) for the frequent presence of Anarian suffixes (Brentesion/ Brundisium, Brintesia river of Veneto, now Brenta, Brentista, Cypr. brenthis/brentix a sort of lattuce, old Chiavennese brentallum with characteristic Ligurian genitive, Brentani, Frentānī, Prettanoi', Bruttātēs, Tusc. brentine; 2) most typical Medit. phonetical uncertainties found in relics, as the evolution of -nt to -nd or -nth in the Aegean area, the labial quality of the preconsonantic nasal (Brentioi/ Brettioi), the vicissitude of e/i (or the evolution of e into i, when followed by -nt, a marker of substrate in Albanian and Rumanian) whence the dark undistinguished vowel rendered as u (brendo/brunda) and morever the evolution voiced> voiceless> aspirate> spirant of the Tyrrhenic area (Frento, Frentani, frõns=fronda). Cf. also Tyrrhenic suffix -entum versus Aegean -inthos e.g. menta, minthē. The homophonous IE theme found in Greek brenthos, pride, brenthuomai , I sweel up, may have caused this fixation of the brenth- type in the Aegean area.
Derived ethnonyms: Brentioi (Dion. Perieg. 362, cf. Brentioi: ethnos en Italiai Hesichius) commonly known as Brettioi, Bruttioi, Brouttioi, in Lat. Bruttii, Brittii, Bruttiani or Bruttiates (Ennius) whence the name of the ager Brittius or Bruttium, Brettia (Polybius I 56), probably so named after a totem animal, the deer. To them correspond in Umbrain territory the Foro-brentani, in the Picenic area, to the north of the river Frento, now Fortore, the Frentani.
Same structure in the name of the Prettanoi' (Diod. V 21, 28; Strabo II 75, 117; IV 200) or Brettanoi', in Lat. Britanni or Brittanni, also as Brittones (Juv. XV 124) cf. Neoceltic Prytein, who gave their name to the Brettia (St. Byz.) or Brentia, Britannia or Brittannia. A tribe was named Carvetii (CIL VII 325) Celtic for deer from *carvos=Lat. cervus with suffix -etii like Helvetii.
In conclusion one can say that it is impossible to answer the questions posed by historical liguistics with a limited perspective. To render the idea of the issue at hands I shall use Alessio's own example: it is like saying that camelus is a Latin word. While this is correct it is also obviously wrong, since we know camelus derives from words of Near Eastern languages denoting the animal camel. Aldrasto11 ( talk) 02:29, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
Thanks to those who commented. I am aware of the need of being concise in an article. Just wish to remark two things. Meid , Koch etc. go for white, but in all likelihood the word did not mean white. It meant elevated place, mount etc. I think we can say it with certainty for two reasons.
1.The word has been used to denote places or objects which are not at all white. Alba Longa: the Alban hills are of a bluish grey colour. The Albula = Tiber is yellow (flavus). In Germany the Elbe too is not white. The Alps are not white (except the highest peaks when snowed).
2. Albona-Labin: this is one of the lucky cases in which we have a translation of the word we are investigating into another language. While Albona is a case of alb- + suffix denoting a town (Verona, Arona, Arrabona etc.), or more precisely a site on/above something else, its Croatian correspondent word is Labin. Now this is commonly acknowledged as a case of the lip/lib/lep/lap Med. word meaning rock. In Latium we have Alba Longa and not too far away Labicum, town destroyed by the Romans in 418 BC, gave its name to the Via Labicana: it was located on a steep hill (probably Montecompatri). We meet also the Lepini Montes, the Lipari Island, Libarna, a settlement located among steep mounts in Liguria and ethnonym Liburni, people who lived in a rocky region not far from Albona. Another way to prove that Labin means rocky place (it is in fact) is considering Lat. words lepis hare and French lapin rabbit: French received the substrate word through another medium than Lat., but the word is clearly the same, meaning animal who likes living among rocks.
A last remark from Giese's review of Hubschmid's book Sardische Studien Bern 1953: "A Celtic word can be considered of IE source only if it is known its parent word in other IE languages. Some Preceltic words have been diffused by means of Gallic. In the Celtic languages of the islands there are Preceltic elements taken up from the Preceltic dwellers (esp. in Irish); it is though important to acknowledge that the respective Celtic peoples may have borrowed words when they were still living on the continent, and that these may be common with Gallic." Aldrasto11 ( talk) 10:36, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
Doctissimi, is this conversation still going on? It seems to have served much of its purpose and run much of its course. davidiad { t } 23:47, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
My intention was and is to end this conversation here, and I accept Davidiad's advice. This being the Anglophone WK though, I owe it to readers: 1) at least a citation: G. Alessio "Sul nome di Brindisi" p. 219 n. 33: "The name of the Island, formerly known as Albion, from Medit. alba highland..." in Archivio Storico Pugliese 1955 VIII 3. p. 211-238. 2) I must reassure them that I do not ignore Lombardy was settled (also, and lastly, before the Romans) by Celtic tribes and these gave many names to the places they settled in their own language. I will not comment further on my last interlocutor's competence in the field of toponymy, what he wrote here above gives a fairly clear measure in and by itself. Aldrasto11 ( talk) 04:10, 1 May 2013 (UTC)