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I'm away to go offline, but have just noticed 68.158.41.166 ( talk · contribs) making changes to many airline articles to change the fleet size in the infobox. Can somebody just eyeball these to make sure the changes are valid, i've got a feeling that might not be since they're a fair bit off the existing numbers. Thanks/ wangi 23:06, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
I´m an expert in Aviation and Airlines!!! I always read Aero International and I´m looking for new information about Airlines. I´m highly intersted in the project and want to join it, but I don´t know how to do this! Dagadt
Someone has renominated airline destinations for afd after it was kept in a decision two weeks ago. If you are interested in this, please join in the discussion. DB ( talk) 20:09, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
While the afd discussion for the Marco Polo Club article resulted in a merge/redirect, there was little discussion on the deletion page, so I decided to redo this and put up a merge request. I am proposing that the Marco Polo Club ( Cathay Pacific's FFP) article be merged into the Cathay article. Please weigh in if you have an opinion. DB ( talk) 07:35, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Should we start assessing articles? DB ( talk) 06:38, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Hello folks! I have begun a WikiProject on bettering the articles on defunct airlines, most notably regional airlines which got swallowed up by the larger airlines following the Airline Deregulation Act. Also within the scope of this project are airports which were served by these defunct airlines that no longer have scheduled air service such as Floyd Bennett Memorial Airport in Glens Falls, New York, or have limited EAS service such as Massena International Airport in Massena.
The project is in the very beginning stages and I need all the help I can get. Basically, all articles in the end need to have former destinations, and I would like them to have past fleet, logos, and a brief history up to their collapse if possible.
Check out the Defunct Airlines WikiProject. It is in its very early stages. Thanks so much, hope to see you there! - Jondude11 07:26, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
After making a minor edit on the British Airways page, I noticed that an editor had deleted the Aviation Template ({Aviation lists}) without explanation, so I reverted it. It appears the user has removed the template from many other airline pages as well, though I have not reverted them as yet. I don't want to get into a revert war, especially on an article from another project. Is there a policy on the inclusion of the {Aviation lists} template on Airline pages? I know it is standard on WP:AIR pages, but I could not find a mention of required or excluded templates on this project page. Thanks. - BillCJ 16:38, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
If any template needs to be removed from the airline pages, I would think it ought to be the HUGE {OTA} template. It could be replaced by a single link to the Open Travel Alliance article, with a phrase stating that the airline is a member. - BillCJ 18:49, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
There wasn't much of a response when I last brought this up, so I'll mention it again. The guideline that "large or well-known" FFPs should have their own articles is vague. People have interpreted this to mean just about every frequent flyer program there is. I think that line should be changed to say that the program is particularly unique or notable, such as AAdvantage (the first), Miles & More (an 8-airline program), etc. DB ( talk) 03:04, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Ryanair has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. Sandy ( Talk) 02:24, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I want to hear your oppinion about the tables created for in destination page, such as Malaysia Airlines destinations. Does it look better and more informative (with codes, fleet type)? I know as the rule said that we should list down lists only, but would the table like this be acceptable? why or why not? Someone please sheds some light on the matter. Thank you. Zack2007 17:00, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Seems that Frontier Airlines has editors that wish to add new routes with details like days of service, aircraft and other information. I believe there was consensus to limit destination information to only points serviced to avoid non encylopedic material issues. So before we get into 3RR teritory or an edit war, I'd like some feedback here. The last changes before my edit also started to add routes that were being dropped. Vegaswikian 06:15, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 23:31, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
There is a CfD on Category:Braniff Flights that may be of interest. I should note that we also have a Category:National Airlines Flights and possibally a few others. Vegaswikian 07:13, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Can someone help a poor unenlightened soul out? Why does Wikipedia:Airline destination lists exist? Also, this (referring to the contents, not the category itself). Wikipedia is not Wikitravel and I see no particular reason why it should simply repeat this information here (see WP:NOT#IINFO) when it can be easily found on the company's website. It also looks a little like advertising for the airline companies... Axem Titanium 03:28, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
User:Huaiwei is reluctant to abiding by the terms on how to correctly layout a page and its contents. I have justified why we make these changes and I have reverted his incorrect edits various times. I am getting tired of doing this. What can I do? Is this considered vandalism?-- Golich17 00:49, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Livingston Airline Destinations is proposed for deletion, and the consensus at the moment seems to be delete. Please see the AfD for this article, as other destinations by airline would also be proposed for deletion. Tinlinkin 19:21, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Every single airline destination list has been nominated for deletion. If you have an opinion, weigh in at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/American Airlines destinations/archive. DB ( talk) 20:40, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
For airline fleet info in the infobox should I add the number of plane orders the airline will recieve for instance 100(+50) -- Marcusmax 02:30, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
I am doing some stub sorting and sieving through categories associated with aviation. I came across this article, Open-jaw ticket and was wondering is this real or a neologism? -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 17:52, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Recently, I've noticed that some articles have had their "Airlines established in xxxx" year categories changed from the year the company was established to the year the current name is adopted. The ones that jumped out at me (because I watch them :P) are Hawaiian Airlines, Aloha Airlines, and Island Air. Hawaiian was changed from 1929 (the year the airline was founded, under the name Inter-Island Airways) to 1941 (the year the Hawaiian Airlines name was adopted), and Aloha was changed from 1946 (the year founded as Trans Pacific Airlines) to 1956 (when the Aloha Airlines name was adopted). Both airlines publicly use their original founding year as their beginning - note the "60 Years of Aloha" celebration last year. It may also be worth noting that TPA had the nickname "The Aloha Airline" almost from the beginning. Island Air is the same, being changed from 1980 (Princeville Airways) to 1992 (Island Air). In airlines with a messy corporate history with numerous predecessor airlines merged into a single corporate entity like US Airways it might make sense to use a more recent date (though that article is under 1937, the date of establishment of predecessor All American Aviation). But when it's a clear case of a single entity's history with a simple name change, I think its more appropriate to use the original date. Would we consider SGI to be established in 1999 because that's when they changed their name from Silicon Graphics? -- Hawaiian717 06:03, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I've put up a proposal on Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (aircraft)#Airline accident naming conventions to codify the long-standing practice of naming articles on crashes as <<airline>><<flight number>>. Comments from the group to help establish consensus would be appreciated. Akradecki 19:12, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I just nominated the Open Travel Alliance template for deletion. Comment here if interested. DB ( talk) 04:58, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Does the project have a view on photographs in airline articles? I can see the value of different aircraft types being illustrated. But sometimes we have more than one of each aircraft, do the extras need to be moved to commons and referenced out?? or should we have a gallery instead of random pictures inserted in the article. MilborneOne 21:48, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Hello! Several editors at WP:AIRCRAFT, a project related to this one, have proposed that a new wikiproject be created. This new proposed project would be wikiproject aviation, and while the details regarding this are Here, the basic proposal would make WP:AIRCRAFT, WP:AIRLINES and WP:AIRPORTS listed as projects under the new WP:AVIATION. Input from mebers of this project would be much appreciated at the main thread located at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Aircraft#Major_proposal:_WP_Aviation. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 14:06, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
bsd. i came across quite a few air navboxes, that don't use the template "navigation" (example: SkyWest end of page). while it wouldn't be a problem for boxes appearing mid-article, and probably would be even better this way, it's not the same for those that appear on the end of page. they are not of modular standard, create huge white spaces around them, thus not visually pleasing, among other problems. in short: i thought of moving them to template "navigation" format, any thoughts? side issue: many of these use different colors for the header bar, the template has a standard one, which one should be used? Ben Stone 19:25, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I've created a project banner at User:Trevor MacInnis/sandbox/Aviation banner. This banner can replace all the various banners used by the various projects, while still providing all the individual uses, such as categorizing articles under specific projects. It is based on the banner user by the Military history project ({{ WPMILHIST}}). An example of it in use is at User talk:Trevor MacInnis/sandbox/Aviation banner, and you can see that by using the various parameters, all aviation articles will be combined under the aviation project at Category:WikiProject Aviation articles and when tagged properly, in their respective Category:Rotorcraft task force articles, etc. It will also allows us to introduce other areas of the Wikiproject, such as "collaboration of the month", and take advantage of the larger total number of users throughout the projects. Please comment at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Aviation#A_Single_Project_Banner_for_use_by_all_aviation_related_projects. - Trevor MacInnis ( Contribs) 21:17, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
While there has been a lot of discussion regarding fleet information latyout there has been little (as far as I can see) mention of retired fleets, i.e. should the information be included? I am all for including this information as I believe it is a) an important part of an airlines history (no fleet, no airline!) and b) it is interesting to see the way in which the airline's fleet has developed. If a decision relating to this has already been made, please forgive me, but could someone please enlighten me? RaseaC 22:53, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
A certain User:Lukla keeps on inserting images in the Cebu Pacific article! And I think that these images does not have proper copyright! For he said that he is the creator of this work, but from the aircraft images below the image their it states JetPhotos.Net! Below are the images he uploaded.
For now I'll revert all his edits. -chris^_^ 05:00, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone see a need for the Category:Airports by continent series of categories? If not, they need to be nominated at CfD. Vegaswikian 05:05, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
While conducting RC patrol a few days ago, I noticed a user making a number of changes to the fleet statistics of multiple airlines. User:71.112.102.126 made a total 129 changes on March 14 and 15. I don't know whether the changes are accurate (that's why I didn't revert them), but thought I should let editors at this project know (see the user's contribution history for a list of all the changes). I also noticed that there was a similar issue (raised above on this talk page) with another IP user in November 2006. -- Black Falcon 20:20, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I think we need to discuss some of the content of articles and how they reflect the stability of articles. As an encyclopedia, the content should be fairly constant and not need to be updated for changes to material that might not be encyclopedic.
For example, as a general rule, specific routes are not encyclopedic. There is no need to list the beginning and ending of these. For the airlines that have these listed, this seems to generate a lot of churn to the articles. I am not talking about including the destinations, which do update but less often, but rather a route from 'point a' to 'point b', sometimes with comments like the frequency of service. This information is not encyclopedic.
Likewise for the fleet age. This is a number that changes daily! While of some interest, it is not encyclopedic so it should not be included on every airline's fleet table. This might be notable in the history section with a citation for when the airline had the newest or the oldest fleet.
Then we have articles that include detailed code share information. This changes more often as agreements change and providing detail does not appear to be encyclopedic. For some small or less know airlines, this information could be significant so some exceptions should be allowed in these limited cases. In other cases, this seems to be included for marketing reasons rather then encyclopedic value. National pride is important, but it does not make including everything about a topic a good thing for the encyclopedia as a hole.
Comments?
Vegaswikian 20:47, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
On January 10, 2007, AirTran started service to Daytona Beach (DAB) and to Newburgh (SWF) utilizing their Boeing 717 aircraft. Ground handling is provided by Air Wisconsin, which also handles United Express/Mesa Airlines.
In June 2003, AirTran began new services operated by Ryan International Airlines to Denver, Las Vegas, and Los Angeles using Ryan International Airbus A320s painted in Air Tran livery, making it a coast-to-coast airline.
There's a new Collaboration of the month, Malaysia-Singapore Airlines, that may be of interest to editors here; any help there would be appreciated. Thanks! Trevor MacInnis ( Contribs) 19:33, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Sox23 - Just thought everyone should know. -- SmthManly / ManlyTalk / ManlyContribs 03:21, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I've noticed that some editors, when providing a citation to an article in Flight International, just give the publication name and date. Would it be possible for them to give more information (page and/or url, article title, etc) when doing so, such as by using the {{ cite news}} or similar template? -- Hawaiian717 17:57, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm noticing a large number of updates being made on a very regular basis to many articles for minor data updates. An encyclopedia should be somewhat static as encyclopedic information is generally not dynamic. I see this in frequent, or monthly, updates to information like the fleet age, or the tail numbers of the aircraft in the fleet.
I think as a project we need to question the value of updating this level of information so often. Maybe the real question is how much of this information really needs to be kept? With something like the fleet, should we have a guideline that says that we show a status at month end and then update as required the next month? Some of the updates have been solely to update the 'as of date with' no information changing! As a part of this, we might want to review the need for some of the trivial information being kept in articles about things like this.
Some of this is driven by articles that want to announce every route change. So we get one update to add a new route, not a new destination, an update when the flight schedule is announced, and update when the information changes and then an update when the route starts and maybe a final update to remove all of the announcement information. All of this for information that belongs in a travel directory and not an encyclopedia. Vegaswikian 18:46, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Looks like a large number of articles no longer follow the recommended structure. It would be nice to get the material in each article into the same order. Also someone has apparently decided that it is better to have history, livery, accident and other project recommended information in a trivia section and add non encyclopedic information in there as well. These articles need a concerted effort to get them back under control. Vegaswikian 23:59, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
With sortable tables is it time to replace IATA airline designator, ICAO airline designator and List of airline call signs with a single sortable table? This would put all information into a single place meaning only one update and probably resulting in more accurate information. The only downside I see, besides the time to implement, is that the sorting maybe slow. If this is done, I think the default order should be the airline name. Vegaswikian 19:38, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Would it be possible to get some more eyes on this. Based on this and this it would appear that there is an employee of Zoom editing the article. They are adding unsourced information to the article as can be seen in the history. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 07:58, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Trying hard to suggest that the Scottish company Zoom Airlines Limited (which is not yet an airline) be split into a separate article to return some sanity into the article, but the company employee is fighting hard. MilborneOne 19:30, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
It is now getting impossible to edit anything to do with Singapore Airlines, as User:Huaiwei insists on reverting ALL edits. The edits done by myself are to FACTUAL edits, yet he seems to want to revert everything to reflect pure marketing hogwash.
Examples of this are:
Singapore Airlines Cargo Singapore Airlines Cargo destinations
It is now getting beyond a joke that edits are being reverted, and not only that but various "fact" tags are also being removed. I see that this issue of SIA articles has gone to 'mediation' in the past without no outcome.
I had planned to do a wholesale edit of Singapore Airlines over the weekend, but what is the point when Huaiwei insists on reverting every edit done which does not agree with the marketing line he obviously wants to pursue?
Any pointers on what can be done appreciated. -- Russavia 17:26, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
(Outdent) Russavia continues to label my reverts as " Vandalism", when this is in actual fact a factual dispute. I would think members would read Talk:Singapore Airlines Cargo and Talk:Singapore Airlines Cargo destinations and make their independent judgements. Claiming my stubborness is the root of the problem seems to be a very convenient thing to do (helped, perhaps, by past grievances expressed by other users), when the very same problem probably inflict Russavia as well in numerous issues he attempts to get involved in. Consider, for instance, the rever wars he gets into over his personal claims on SIA not being a launch customer of the A380 [2], despite being proven wrong with sources. I would equally beg everyone's attention here in reassessing the "counter-propaganda" being pushed by the above user.-- Huaiwei 18:03, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Digging into Singapore Airlines and Singapore Airlines Cargo and their flights raises some questions.
I'm sure there are more but I'd like to hear what others think about these issues. Vegaswikian 23:33, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
An issue has arisen at Singapore Airlines Cargo destinations that I'd like to bring back here to discuss. I believe that it is the long standing guidance of the project that only airports where the aircraft owned by the airline, or affiliates that can be listed as d/b/a, fly to should be included in destinations lists. This means that destinations with service via a code share, partner airline, leased space on an aircraft of an another airline, or service provide by another carrier not operating under your call sign is not considered a destination. Is this correct? What seems to be at the heart of the problem is the difference in providing service vs. flying to an airport. Vegaswikian 19:47, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Is there a good reason why these two pages exist at all? — Kyриx 03:25, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
It seems that the dispute in regards to cargo airlines is now spreading to Emirates SkyCargo and Lufthansa Cargo. All of my edits are completely sourced and, when necessary, explained. But these edits are called "POV pushing" by User:Huaiwei. We need to get some outside opinion, and arbitration if needed, as it is not going to be possible to negotiate as full scale reverts are being done to these edits, even when additional information has been provided. How do we go about getting this? -- Russavia 12:03, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I take particular issue with Russavia's tendency of calling content disputes acts of vandalism, such as in [3], where a revert justified by "Stop vandalising the article Huaiwei. My edits are factually correct, your's are just plaing WRONG. Stop vandalising." appears grossly inappriopriate (and further aggrevated when an involved administrator proceeds to block the page moments after Russavia's revert [4]. Very disappointing, indeed.-- Huaiwei 12:35, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I think we should expand on the guidelines in the project. It states for code shares that: "Code share destinations should not be listed for the secondary carrier.". There should be a similar statement for Cargo carriers and it articles should reflect usage of the airline's own aircraft and not aircraft operated by other airlines/carriers even if there is some scheme in place. → AA ( talk • contribs) — 12:42, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Just to conclude this discussion then, it appears the consensus is to treat them as separate airlines and not to duplicate the information but simply refer to 'other' airline's article. Based on their comments (and edits), Vegaswikian & MilborneOne are supportive of this approach also but Huaiwei has argued against it. Huaiwei, please respect this consensus but if you still feel strongly against it, it may be appropriate for you to go for an WP:RfC. Also, as was mentioned somewhere, an alternative is to create an article about the cargo service of SIA/SIA Cargo if there is anything notable but the SIA Cargo article is for the airline itself. Thanks. → AA ( talk • contribs) — 23:27, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
I would say these are cargo destinations of SIA. They are not destinations of SQC. One may consider these destinations to be code-share destinations that SQC reaches, but we don't list code-share destinations. What I'd suggest is to list these destinations under SIA with a note, to tell readers that these cargo capacities are all retailed by SQC, and link SIA's list of destinations from SQC's list of destinations. Michael G. Davis 22:53, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Please indicate your view by taking part in the straw poll below.
Should destinations/fleets of subsidiary/sister airlines be included in articles of cargo operators where they also exclusively manage those fleets' cargo space?
Yes:
No:
Not Sure:
Is it just me or does it seem that the group of editors who have a vendetta against these articles are nominating them over and over until they get the outcome they desire? I can't find it anymore, but there's a page about abuse of the afd process. DB ( talk) 04:17, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Based on the current AfD, it appears that some of the delete votes would be changed if the character of these lists were changed to included historical information. Since the AfD looks like it will fail, I think we should consider adding this information to those lists. At this time, I don't know how had this will be while keeping the data verifiable.
Also we would need to format the data so that it takes less space then the current layout and allows users to look at the data in different ways. I'm not sure how we want to address the references issue since the list could get rather long on each page. I don't know if that is a problem or not but I'll show a suggested solution in the suggestions that follow. Likewise how do we deal with service that was ended and then resumed? Does it stay in the table? Of course comments are encouraged.
City | Country | Began | Ended | Comments |
---|---|---|---|---|
Miami | United States | 1980 | 2006 | Service transfered to US Airways |
Fresno | United States | 1987 | 1993 | Service transfered to America West Express |
Honolulu | United States | 1989 | 1991 | Service resumed in 2006 |
Nagoya | Japan | 1989 | 1990 | Service resumed in 1993 |
Nagoya | Japan | 1993 | 1996 | Service resumed in 1998 |
Nagoya | Japan | 1998 | 1999 |
Vegaswikian 21:03, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
City | Airport | Country | Began | Ended | Comments |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
Honolulu | Honolulu International Airport | United States | 1989 | 1991 | |
Honolulu | Honolulu International Airport | United States | 2006 | current | |
Cancún | Cancún International Airport | Mexico | 1989 | 1995 | operated seasonally May-September |
There have been discussions previously regarding historical destinations and the general feel is they are very difficult to verify so would fail WP:V in most cases.
I have created Template:Airlines_of_the_People's_Republic_of_China as it was not yet implemented. I think we need to gather some group consensus as to what should and shouldn't be included in it. My train of thought is that only airlines which are given certification to fly by the CAAC should be included. This means that airlines which are based in Hong Kong and Macau are not included as Hong Kong and Macau have their own civil aviation authorities with oversight for licencing, safety, international agreement, etc. Some think that Hong Kong and Macau airlines should be included in the template. Hong Kong already has its own template. Thoughts/comments? -- Russavia 04:58, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Following on from Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Airlines#Airlines_of_the_People.27s_Republic_of_China it doesn't seem there is a standard in the drop-down Airlines of *** templates which are placed in articles. Perhaps there should be a standard? What should and should not be included? How to present it? There seems to be different ways of doing this.
So should there be a standard, and what would be the best way of presenting this? -- Russavia 05:30, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Going thru a heap of the airlines in the last week or so, it has astounded me how many start-ups there really are. With start-ups the fact is that prob 90% of them will never get past the planning stage, let alone actually have a single flights. In terms of an encyclopaedia, how do we treat these companies? Start-ups such as Virgin America will very likely get off the ground. Same as Tiger Airways Australia. But what about such start-ups as Blackstar Airlines, Air Gumbo, etc? Just how encyclopaedic are they? What about Family Airlines? This is a company which never got off the ground on two occasions, yet they have their own entry. Should the entry for Family Airlines even exist in an encyclopaedia? I would say probably not. Many of these start-ups work purely on PR put out by press releases which are put out in the hope that some news organisation will pick up on them. So where do we draw the line? As an example, I have put Ansett Regional Airlines up for afd Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ansett Regional Airlines
Also, I have split up the US start-ups into Category:Start-up_airlines_of_the_United_States. These aren't true airlines yet, but merely companies with some PR and intentions (some real, some not). Once they have taken flights, they should be moved to their respective category. Thoughts/comments on that? -- Russavia 19:19, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Someone has put Backpackers Express up for speedy deletion just recently also. What is going to happen in regards to such articles? What is the 'list' that you mentioned Vegas? -- Russavia 17:19, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Just on notability on these start ups for a sec. Does anyone remember the grandiose plans by the now convicted Scottish paedophile? That guy (NDR) generated a lot of press with his plans to buy 44 TriStars from Delta, even appearing in some industry magazines and newspapers. Yet, many in the early stages (myself included) knew it was a sham, and by the time it exactly what he was, everyone knew there was no substance to his supposed airline. It was the figment of his imagination. Before he was outed, his pipedream would have clearly passed all applicable tests on WP, particularly when it came to WP:RS. One of the figments of his imagination already exists, City Connexion Airlines. There are plenty of others out there like this, in relation to be being hoaxes, pipedreams and wishful thinking by armchair CEOs. Just some food for thought. -- Russavia 02:16, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Has there been some discussion somewhere to agree on the mass removal of Skytrax links in the EL section of all airline articles? If so, could someone point me in that direction please. If not, as I believe to be the case, could I suggest to editors that changes on this scale be first discussed to prevent mass reverts and edit wars. On this particular issue, Russavia ( talk · contribs) has been removing all links to Skytrax. I also notice that the Skytrax article itself was nominated for deletion by Russavia. I don't have any strong opinions either way but would like to discuss this with the community at large to gauge consensus to potentially avoid revert wars in future.
As I see it, Skytrax is a notable organisation providing independent research of Airlines and Airports. The discussion forums for each airline (for which the links have been removed) are moderated and therefore prevent abusive or libellous comments on the airlines but do present genuine customer feedback.
In my opinion, it meets the criteria for WP:EL and is valid to be included in the articles.→ AA ( talk • contribs) — 20:21, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Ditto per RaseaC.
Additionally, there is a distinct difference between the average discussion forum and opinion website when compared to the Skytrax ones. Firstly, Skytrax's awards are based on the surveys it conducts and the customer opinions received therefore they carry a greater weight and representation. These opinions are accepted by highly notable organisations such as
Forbes [13], OAG [14], CNN [15], BBC [16]. These are just a few of the 160k+ ghits. The question then, is does this make the Skytrax awards and opinions/forums suitable for inclusion in the EL section of articles? There are much worse sites linked across many articles in WP - which, although cannot be used as an argument for inclusion, is still worth bearing in mind when reviewing the criteria at WP:EL.
WP:EL#Links normally to be avoided starts by saying "Except for a link to a page that is the subject of the article or an official page of the article subject—and not prohibited by restrictions on linking—one should avoid:". The links are indeed to pages that are the subject of the article. I don't believe the links come under point 10 as it is not a "social networking site". They are not covered by 11 because they are not user blogs.
However, my main reason for bringing this discussion here is to highlight that bot changes on this scale should not be made without first discussing them with the community.
To answer Russavia's comments on the status of the company, a company does not need to be registered under it's trading name. It may be registered under a different name which I'm pretty sure it is as if it was just a "joke", I wouldn't expect serious publications/organisations to take much notice of it. → AA ( talk • contribs) — 20:39, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
I think this quote above is highly misleading: "The project guidelines say for external links "Do not include un-encyclopedic opinion web sites""
3 points:
I have nominated El Al for a FA status following its recent awarding of GA Status. Please feel free to leave comments at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/El Al. -- Flymeoutofhere 07:08, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
There are hundreds if not thousands of listings by country managed by this WikiProject. But many of them present an anomaly from what is common beyond this WikiProject and in printed publications outside Wikipedia. Take the lists of airline destinations for example, some countries that are not sovereign states are not listed as countries, but as divisions of countries. These include countries such as the United States Virgin Islands, Puerto Rico, American Samoa, Hong Kong, etc. As this project deals with airlines, I would consider the ICAO and IATA country code lists good bases for reference. Michael G. Davis 23:21, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
The last discussion on this didn't really reach any conclusions, but I think the guideline on frequent flyer programs needs to be changed. Even large and notable programs such as AAdvantage (the first in existence) have been marged back in. However, I got opposition - citing this project - when I put a merge request on LANPASS. If AAdvantage and Executive Club are not notable enough for their own articles, then this one certainly isn't. How about just changing the guideline to only include multi-airline programs (Miles & More, etc.) and programs not actually run by a carrier (Aeroplan and the like)? DB ( talk) 03:03, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
The terms hub and focus city are in my mind very American and possibly Euro-centric terms and don't quite work in entries for smaller airlines and airlines from many other parts of the world.
As an example, Northwest Airlines has hubs in MSP, DTW, MEM, NRT and AMS and has IND and HNL as focus cities. The operations of the airline directly correlate to the definitions of the hub and focus city (hub and spoke) airline operation.
Then we have Aeroflot, which has SVO as its hub; it is a hub in the definitive sense in that passengers will fly Aeroflot from other cities and transfer at SVO to the rest of the airlines' network.
Then we have Polar Airlines, it is based in Yakutsk, and utilising templates of this project, its hubs are: Yakutsk, Batagai, Belaya Gora, Magan, Moma, Nyubra, Olekminsk, Srednekolymsk and Tiksi. However, this is not accurate, not even for Yakutsk. Not all airlines operate on the hub and spoke model. Using Polar Airlines as the example, a passenger in Ust-Maya will fly Polar Airlines to Yakutsk for one of two reasons; either their intended destination is Yakutsk, or somewhere further afield (such as say Moscow) where Polar does not fly to. Traffic between Ust-Maya and Cherskiy via Yakutsk would be minimal if not non-existent, and even if there was traffic between these two points, the schedules of the airline do not fit in with it being a hub as a 3 or 4 days layover in Yakutsk would be necessary, so this doesn't quite fulfill the 'transfer' operation of a hub and spoke airline. Then we have the other 'hubs' of the airline, for example, Batagai. Operations from Batagai are limited, but the airline does base aircraft there, as it does in the other 'hubs', but the operations don't fulfill the definition of a focus city. They are more correctly defined as bases for the airline.
Kyrgyzstan Airlines is another example, Manas is more of a base for the airline, rather than a hub as most traffic originates from or going to Bishkek. There are limited destinations (well Moscow only actually) serviced from Osh, and Karakol is used in the summer season for direct point-to-point flights. Manas is a base, Osh is a secondary base, Karakol is a base on a limited basis.
Now transplant this to a larger airline, and an example is El Al. The airline is based in Tel Aviv, but does it actually hub there? According to Yoah Levy, the vice president for commercial and industry affairs, it does not. El Al is purely a point to point airline. Quote: “In North America, we are the dominant airline. We operate up to six flights a day to the six destinations of New York JFK, Newark, Chicago, Miami, Los Angeles and Toronto. In the summer we deploy the 747-400 and the 777. We also dominate the Asian routes. We are the only airline to fly non-stop from BGN to Bangkok, Peking, Bombay and Hong Kong. However, we are not able to exploit this advantage to the full, as international passengers do not use Tel Aviv as a hub for Asia. On the other hand, we are able to offer Israelis non-stop flights with full service." Endquote [17] Ben Gurion is a base for El Al, not a hub.
We really should be taking the various types of airline operations into account in the articles, particularly within infoboxes and the like, as not all airlines operate the same way as many American and European airlines. -- Russavia 02:04, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Could everyone have a look at Wikipedia:WikiProject Aviation/Aviation Project Coordinator Proposal, and make any comments there. This is an idea that the Military History project uses, and their production of high quality articles far exceeds ours. - Trevor MacInnis ( Contribs) 23:55, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Could fellow members please comment on the following issue on the above two airlines?
For reasons as yet unknown, the Air Sylhet logo and name is registered as a trademark of Royal Bengal Airline, another recent startup airline competing in the same space as Air Sylhet.
For reasons as yet unknown, among the trademarks registered to Royal Bengal Airline, is the name and logo of Air Sylhet, another recent startup airline competing in the same space as Royal Bengal Airline.
However, as soon as I had done this some anon editors started removing it. The discussion page of Royal Bengal Airline was also virtually blanked where discussion of this info had occurred. I had to request page protection to prevent the disruption by anons who were not engaging in dialogue.
The latest development is a "psuedo" legal warning not to include this information (See this talk page discussion).
My opinion is that both companies are actively advertising for investment from the general public and information on this trademark dispute is valuable information to people intending to invest so it should be presented and I have kept it succinct and factual with no allegations or inferences drawn for either airline.
What is the opinion of others here? I have said that I will go with the consensus from the WP:AIRLINE community.
→ AA ( talk • contribs) — 22:46, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Royal Bengal Airline is knowingly registered the trademark of AIR SYLHET PLC from the Airsylhet.com official website. If you have a good vision, perhaps look very carefully the Air Sylhet logo is identical in IPO database. If the logo was different in IPO website, then perhaps you can say UNKNOWN. This is not the case. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.44.163.215 ( talk)
Having a look at my watchlist it seems a lot of the airline logos are being deleted due to there being no fair use rationale provided. It would seem that the required fair use rationale is what is on Image:British_Airways_logo.png. I have been going thru and adding fair use rationales to any which come up in my watchlist, but I only have a small percentage of airline articles on my watchlist, so perhaps other editors could check those for which they are regulars on and add the rationale, if it isn't already present. -- Russavia 03:02, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Some concerns have been raised at the Japan Airlines article that the logo has some copyright issues. I have added a fair use rationale - but some are concerned that the resolution in its use in the article is perhaps too high, do you think the resolution should be lowered? Unfortunately the person who uploaded the image does not seem to want to want to talk about it ( User_talk:RadicalBender) Camaron1 | Chris 14:54, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
I'll also mention that while we're at it; if you're editing a logo page to add a fair use rationale, you might want to check to see if it's properly sorted into Category:Airline logos by having |Airline logos in the license template. -- Hawaiian717 18:30, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Now that it seems clear that articles on aircraft by tail number are generally not going to be notable, N135CR at AfD, I'd like to ask if any use of extensive or inclusive lists of tail numbers in articles have sufficient notability to be kept. I'm thinking that these are non encyclopedic listcruft. One obvious possible exception would be for Frontier Airlines where there is unique art associated with each tail number. Should the project be updated to address this? Vegaswikian 21:13, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
While patrolling new pages recently, I noticed Air Ivoire destinations and another new destinations article lacked verifiable reliable sources. I pointed this out by placing the "sources" template on the articles.
A user I think may be a part of this project asked me about the template I applied, pointing out that these articles routinely lack sources. He also removed the templates, and I haven't replaced them because it became apparent to me that the issue is one with what appears to be the whole class of destinations articles.
I think we all accept that there are official policies of this project we must abide by like WP:V and WP:OR. I'm concerned that these pages do not live by that standard. I have noticed that they have been to AfD on at least two occasions and have survived, so my intention here is not to march them back to that possible status. Instead, I thought I'd raise the issue here to see if there is a project consensus as to what to do. It just seemed a better course of action than a Request for Comment, but that may be the next necessary step.
The biggest question appears to be whether these pages are actually a part of your project. I haven't noticed any destinations articles carrying this project template on their talk pages, but they do appear to clearly be related. Erechtheus 14:37, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
I've been using AutoWikiBrowser to add fair use rationales to the images in Category:Airline logos (yes, I know not all of them are there, but its a start), and some of the images there are really big. Some were over 6000 pixels wide. I think those don't pass the requirement that fair use logos be low resolution. Unless anyone objects I'm going to start scaling them down to a lower resolution in the next few days. -- Hawaiian717 16:20, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
The Puerto Rican airline Air Culebra is up for deletion. Here is the AfD. (Note: I did not initiate this Afd. It is listed here becuase it falls into the scope of this project.) -- Oakshade 03:33, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Just deleted an incident added to the Shuttle America article, I removed it as non-notable as it was about an aircraft being delayed for seven hours. User:PaulinSaudi has reverted the deletion on the grounds that a seven hour delay is a notable incident. Can anybody have look and provide a second/third opinion please. Thanks . MilborneOne 15:11, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm gonna make destination list of airlines, and I'll update the current lists. I was wondering... should we state our references in the article because I notice that most destination lists has no references stated. -chris^_^ 08:35, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
I noticed that all destinations of AirAsia and their subsidiaries (except FlyAsianXpress) is in one destination list, shouldn't we separate these per airline? -chris^_^ 10:32, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
I have removed some images sourced from Airliners.net in the Eastern Airways article, User:Rawky123 keeps putting the images back including declaring on the images pages that The copyright holder allows anyone to use it for any purpose... Despite this the images themselves clearly show they are copyrighted by individuals. I have removed them twice now and not wanting to break 3RR rules can anybody help. Can we challenge the images themselves? MilborneOne 22:02, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Hi, can I have some input over at the above article regarding notability please? See also the relevant discusion at the bottom of my talk page. Thanks Blood Red Sandman (Talk) (Contribs) 23:38, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Can somone take a look at Retrojet? Is this a dictdef, nonsense or something that needs expansion? Vegaswikian 05:54, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Dear fellow Wikiproject Airliners, I made an image for your airline stub at the commons. Please replace the PNG asap. Thanks! -- JackLau 09:32, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Heads up, folks...{{ Air Transport Association}} has been nominated at TfD ( here) for what seems to be a fairly flimsy reason...consider visiting the TfD page and speaking your piece, whichever side you're on. AKRadecki Speaketh 14:44, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Yeesh ... someone want to take a look over there? It's a mess of reversions between two users right now, and I'm not really going to bother jumping in until they're done. But, anyway, there's a ton of forked articles over there, some of which probably aren't entirely necessary; List of largest airlines in the World, for example. I'll fix it up eventually, but if there's any specific style this Wikiproject wants to jump in and use, now might be a good time. — Rebelguys2 talk 03:59, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
With some of the cleanup in Category:Airlines it has exposed an interesting missing cat. We have categories for Air ambulance services, Cargo airlines, Defunct airlines, Helicopter airlines, and Low-cost airlines but not for charter airlines or passenger airlines. Should these be added? Vegaswikian 21:57, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I have nominated the following for Afd
Airlines of Pakistan List of airlines in Ukraine List of airlines in Serbia
Last week List of airlines based in Nepal was put up for afd, and was deleted, as it should be
As these are squarely within this project scope, others should make known their opinions on such lists at the relevant Afds. -- Russavia 12:08, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Any objections to letting User:MiszaBot_II automatically archive the contents of this talk page? Vegaswikian 07:07, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Several months ago, the financial performance of British Airways was put up. Is it useful to include it on other airlines? The reports are quite easy to find - they should all be available to the public. At a minimum, the passengers flown is a useful piece of data, along with maybe turnover. I personally used the data in the BA article for a school coursework and it can be useful to readers. American airlines' report can be found here [21], simply by searching "airline annual report". -- TheTall One 19:21, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Looks like we need to better define this. Apparently AirTran Airways is now considering any city they serve from 5 destinations to be a focus city. This makes for a very long infobox. It is also causing some reverts. Can we arrive at a better definition? Starting with 5 would mean that many airports become focus cities. This is apparently based on something in here, but I just don't see it. For now I'm going to revert these out again. Vegaswikian 02:54, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
In going thru the categories which relate to this project, and having a look at literally hundreds of articles, I think that an improvement to the current infobox might be a good idea.
The current infobox currently has the following options:
This infobox is placed on all airline articles, and I don't feel it fits in with all airline operations. Refer to The term hub/focus city as one example of why this is, and specifically why these infoboxes are too American and Euro centric, but moreso American-centric.
My suggestion would be that we have one infobox for current airlines and one infobox for defunct airlines (and possibly even one infobox for planned/start-up airlines), with additional options in the infobox, which could include the following:
Additionally, for Russian/CIS airlines, there needs to be an additional field which is unique to these airlines, that being the internal codes. If you look at Polar Airlines and Chukotavia you will see they have no IATA or ICAO or even callsigns. But they do have internal codes, e.g. ЯП is Polar Airlines, АД is Chukotavia. Even major airlines have these codes, e.g. СУ is Aerflot, УН is Transaero, С7 is S7 Airlines. These codes are not used for international flights, but rather domestic flights and inter-CIS flights. They should be included as they are major identifiers for these airlines, and I would make a stand-alone infobox for these airlines to add this option in, but am not sure how to do this.
Throwing this open for comment, additional options, etc, etc. -- Russavia 20:24, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I was just going to ask if we could add Bases to the Airline template. I think this is a great idea and we really do need to do something about the infobox. It is not universal for all airlines right now, and the changes proposed would really help w/ the problem. Sox 23 05:04, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Can some others take a look at List of Airline Holding Companies I'm not sure what to do about the article, but deletion is at the top of my list. I'm not sure that the amount of work needed to clean this up is worth the effort. Vegaswikian 01:55, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I decided to nominate this on AfD if anyone wants to participate. Vegaswikian 02:21, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
There is an IP user who keeps changing the callsign from the official ICAO AIRFRANS to AIR FRANCE, despite comments to discuss on the talk page and cite the change he/she is changing it every few minutes. We can only revert so many time an hour! can anybody help. MilborneOne 21:21, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Category:Airline Marketing Sub-Brands is nominated here. Vegaswikian 02:29, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
I just found {{ Airlines of the United States}} and it seems like this adds a ton of nav boxes when used. Not so sure that it is a good idea. Also some of these take up huge amounts of vertical space making the contents useless as a navigation box.
One suggestion would be to make this one only be a nav box for the other templates.
Comments? Vegaswikian 22:06, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Check out Proposed Cathay Pacific destinations. I do believe it is a possible candidate for an AFD?-- Huaiwei 13:29, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
There is an anon editor adding terms like 'advertising sub-brands', 'marketing sub brands' and simply sub brands. These appear to be nothing but brands that are used by airlines. To avoid confusion I suggest that we only use the term 'brand' to describe these cases. One could argue that the every airline is an advertising or marketing brand so adding those terms is redundant. Vegaswikian 19:45, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
As much as I don't want to do this, I have put List of largest airlines in Oceania up for AfD, because it miserably fails WP:V and WP:OR. The other articles in this series are also clearly in breach of these policies, and depending on the outcome of this AfD (I was almost inclined to put them all up as a group) will pursue those too. It is better to have no information than non-verifiable information. -- Russavia 17:28, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Singapore Airlines fleet, Malaysia Airlines Fleet and Thai Airways International fleet have been placed for Afd, project members may want to weigh in with their opinions against or for deletion. -- Russavia 12:16, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
What exactly is a commercial airline? For the purpose of this encyclopedia, I believe that it is any subsidiary, division or other entity that markets as an airline exclusive of charter operators and operations. If we adopt too narrow of a view, then the names would not be listed as an airline in categories and the categories would lose value. Vegaswikian 17:28, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Over at Singapore Airlines, I have been attempting to clean up this article for the last 6 months due to the advertisement like state it is in, in addition to it containing too much unencyclopaedic information. Unfortunately, Huaiwei reverts such edits on sight claiming that concensus has been found to include them; this concensus including himself and one other editor, without taking into account the results of Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2007-01-07_Singapore_Airlines (a mediation in which he made clear he had no intention of paying any notice to) and Wikipedia:WikiProject_Airlines guidelines. The guidelines states:
Code share destinations should not be listed for the secondary carrier.
Do we as a project stand by these guidelines and can they be used as concensus to remove codeshare destinations from articles such as Singapore Airlines and Thai Airways International (and others no doubt)? In other words, do we remove codeshare destinations from articles and only list their codeshare partners?
Please indicate below if you support or oppose the guidelines, so that concensus can be gathered for once and for all.
Is there a standard to which these articles should comply? I just stumbled across Widerøe destinations in my assessing drive and it looks a lot better than, for example, Air Canada destinations. Perhaps a standard should be decided upon and articles brought up to code? - Trevor MacInnis ( Contribs) 15:22, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I have recently reformatted destination lists for Aeroflot and Domodedovo International Airport into a collapsable table inline in the article. I saw this done by an editor on Belavia, and it looks good in my opinion. Also, I would keep terminated destinations out, as it would be near on impossible to source this for some airlines---prime example, it would be impossible to source all terminated destinations of Aeroflot due to the sheer number of destinations they used to fly to---additionally, IMO terminated destinations are not encyclopaedic (some would say we are already pushing it with listing current destinations), and they don't belong on WP -- Russavia 16:58, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
As per the changes made by Vegaswikian, I too support the format, however, I would prefer to leave them as a collapsable list (so long as this is inline with WP policies?) -- Russavia 02:03, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Comment: I note with alarm Russavia's aggresive attempts to turn Aeroflot destinations into a redirect page, enforcing a perception that his collapsable table presented in Aeroflot has been finalised and agreed upon. I also note his sudden interest in going through practically all articles in Category:Airline destinations and tagging all articles with {{Unreferenced}} tags (when he could instead spent time to insert the references himself), which kicked off in earnest just moments after the revert warring over at Aeroflot destinations. I sense storm clouds ahead.-- Huaiwei 18:03, 17 October 2007 (UTC) Two cases in point:
It should also be noted that the guidelines of this project do not insist that there should be a separate page for destination lists, but that there can be a separate page. Additionally, it should also be noted that other editors have incorporated these collapsable lists into the main airline article, British Mediterranean Airways being one, Belavia being another (I did the Aeroflot article after seeing Zscouts edit on the Belavia article. As to my tagging of article, it is not my sole responsibility to find sources for every piece of unsourced information on Wikipedia, it is the responsibility of editors who are adding information to provide this information, and if you anyone thinks that I am going to scour through hundreds of articles to ensure that the thousands upon thousands of destinations are verified, then they are sorely mistaken. If this project says that such destination lists are essential for the aims of the project, then these lists need to be referenced, and this needs to be a collaborative effort, not left up to a single editor to do. -- Russavia 18:59, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
I'm away to go offline, but have just noticed 68.158.41.166 ( talk · contribs) making changes to many airline articles to change the fleet size in the infobox. Can somebody just eyeball these to make sure the changes are valid, i've got a feeling that might not be since they're a fair bit off the existing numbers. Thanks/ wangi 23:06, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
I´m an expert in Aviation and Airlines!!! I always read Aero International and I´m looking for new information about Airlines. I´m highly intersted in the project and want to join it, but I don´t know how to do this! Dagadt
Someone has renominated airline destinations for afd after it was kept in a decision two weeks ago. If you are interested in this, please join in the discussion. DB ( talk) 20:09, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
While the afd discussion for the Marco Polo Club article resulted in a merge/redirect, there was little discussion on the deletion page, so I decided to redo this and put up a merge request. I am proposing that the Marco Polo Club ( Cathay Pacific's FFP) article be merged into the Cathay article. Please weigh in if you have an opinion. DB ( talk) 07:35, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Should we start assessing articles? DB ( talk) 06:38, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Hello folks! I have begun a WikiProject on bettering the articles on defunct airlines, most notably regional airlines which got swallowed up by the larger airlines following the Airline Deregulation Act. Also within the scope of this project are airports which were served by these defunct airlines that no longer have scheduled air service such as Floyd Bennett Memorial Airport in Glens Falls, New York, or have limited EAS service such as Massena International Airport in Massena.
The project is in the very beginning stages and I need all the help I can get. Basically, all articles in the end need to have former destinations, and I would like them to have past fleet, logos, and a brief history up to their collapse if possible.
Check out the Defunct Airlines WikiProject. It is in its very early stages. Thanks so much, hope to see you there! - Jondude11 07:26, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
After making a minor edit on the British Airways page, I noticed that an editor had deleted the Aviation Template ({Aviation lists}) without explanation, so I reverted it. It appears the user has removed the template from many other airline pages as well, though I have not reverted them as yet. I don't want to get into a revert war, especially on an article from another project. Is there a policy on the inclusion of the {Aviation lists} template on Airline pages? I know it is standard on WP:AIR pages, but I could not find a mention of required or excluded templates on this project page. Thanks. - BillCJ 16:38, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
If any template needs to be removed from the airline pages, I would think it ought to be the HUGE {OTA} template. It could be replaced by a single link to the Open Travel Alliance article, with a phrase stating that the airline is a member. - BillCJ 18:49, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
There wasn't much of a response when I last brought this up, so I'll mention it again. The guideline that "large or well-known" FFPs should have their own articles is vague. People have interpreted this to mean just about every frequent flyer program there is. I think that line should be changed to say that the program is particularly unique or notable, such as AAdvantage (the first), Miles & More (an 8-airline program), etc. DB ( talk) 03:04, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Ryanair has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. Sandy ( Talk) 02:24, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I want to hear your oppinion about the tables created for in destination page, such as Malaysia Airlines destinations. Does it look better and more informative (with codes, fleet type)? I know as the rule said that we should list down lists only, but would the table like this be acceptable? why or why not? Someone please sheds some light on the matter. Thank you. Zack2007 17:00, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Seems that Frontier Airlines has editors that wish to add new routes with details like days of service, aircraft and other information. I believe there was consensus to limit destination information to only points serviced to avoid non encylopedic material issues. So before we get into 3RR teritory or an edit war, I'd like some feedback here. The last changes before my edit also started to add routes that were being dropped. Vegaswikian 06:15, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 23:31, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
There is a CfD on Category:Braniff Flights that may be of interest. I should note that we also have a Category:National Airlines Flights and possibally a few others. Vegaswikian 07:13, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Can someone help a poor unenlightened soul out? Why does Wikipedia:Airline destination lists exist? Also, this (referring to the contents, not the category itself). Wikipedia is not Wikitravel and I see no particular reason why it should simply repeat this information here (see WP:NOT#IINFO) when it can be easily found on the company's website. It also looks a little like advertising for the airline companies... Axem Titanium 03:28, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
User:Huaiwei is reluctant to abiding by the terms on how to correctly layout a page and its contents. I have justified why we make these changes and I have reverted his incorrect edits various times. I am getting tired of doing this. What can I do? Is this considered vandalism?-- Golich17 00:49, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Livingston Airline Destinations is proposed for deletion, and the consensus at the moment seems to be delete. Please see the AfD for this article, as other destinations by airline would also be proposed for deletion. Tinlinkin 19:21, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Every single airline destination list has been nominated for deletion. If you have an opinion, weigh in at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/American Airlines destinations/archive. DB ( talk) 20:40, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
For airline fleet info in the infobox should I add the number of plane orders the airline will recieve for instance 100(+50) -- Marcusmax 02:30, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
I am doing some stub sorting and sieving through categories associated with aviation. I came across this article, Open-jaw ticket and was wondering is this real or a neologism? -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 17:52, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Recently, I've noticed that some articles have had their "Airlines established in xxxx" year categories changed from the year the company was established to the year the current name is adopted. The ones that jumped out at me (because I watch them :P) are Hawaiian Airlines, Aloha Airlines, and Island Air. Hawaiian was changed from 1929 (the year the airline was founded, under the name Inter-Island Airways) to 1941 (the year the Hawaiian Airlines name was adopted), and Aloha was changed from 1946 (the year founded as Trans Pacific Airlines) to 1956 (when the Aloha Airlines name was adopted). Both airlines publicly use their original founding year as their beginning - note the "60 Years of Aloha" celebration last year. It may also be worth noting that TPA had the nickname "The Aloha Airline" almost from the beginning. Island Air is the same, being changed from 1980 (Princeville Airways) to 1992 (Island Air). In airlines with a messy corporate history with numerous predecessor airlines merged into a single corporate entity like US Airways it might make sense to use a more recent date (though that article is under 1937, the date of establishment of predecessor All American Aviation). But when it's a clear case of a single entity's history with a simple name change, I think its more appropriate to use the original date. Would we consider SGI to be established in 1999 because that's when they changed their name from Silicon Graphics? -- Hawaiian717 06:03, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I've put up a proposal on Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (aircraft)#Airline accident naming conventions to codify the long-standing practice of naming articles on crashes as <<airline>><<flight number>>. Comments from the group to help establish consensus would be appreciated. Akradecki 19:12, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I just nominated the Open Travel Alliance template for deletion. Comment here if interested. DB ( talk) 04:58, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Does the project have a view on photographs in airline articles? I can see the value of different aircraft types being illustrated. But sometimes we have more than one of each aircraft, do the extras need to be moved to commons and referenced out?? or should we have a gallery instead of random pictures inserted in the article. MilborneOne 21:48, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Hello! Several editors at WP:AIRCRAFT, a project related to this one, have proposed that a new wikiproject be created. This new proposed project would be wikiproject aviation, and while the details regarding this are Here, the basic proposal would make WP:AIRCRAFT, WP:AIRLINES and WP:AIRPORTS listed as projects under the new WP:AVIATION. Input from mebers of this project would be much appreciated at the main thread located at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Aircraft#Major_proposal:_WP_Aviation. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 14:06, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
bsd. i came across quite a few air navboxes, that don't use the template "navigation" (example: SkyWest end of page). while it wouldn't be a problem for boxes appearing mid-article, and probably would be even better this way, it's not the same for those that appear on the end of page. they are not of modular standard, create huge white spaces around them, thus not visually pleasing, among other problems. in short: i thought of moving them to template "navigation" format, any thoughts? side issue: many of these use different colors for the header bar, the template has a standard one, which one should be used? Ben Stone 19:25, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I've created a project banner at User:Trevor MacInnis/sandbox/Aviation banner. This banner can replace all the various banners used by the various projects, while still providing all the individual uses, such as categorizing articles under specific projects. It is based on the banner user by the Military history project ({{ WPMILHIST}}). An example of it in use is at User talk:Trevor MacInnis/sandbox/Aviation banner, and you can see that by using the various parameters, all aviation articles will be combined under the aviation project at Category:WikiProject Aviation articles and when tagged properly, in their respective Category:Rotorcraft task force articles, etc. It will also allows us to introduce other areas of the Wikiproject, such as "collaboration of the month", and take advantage of the larger total number of users throughout the projects. Please comment at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Aviation#A_Single_Project_Banner_for_use_by_all_aviation_related_projects. - Trevor MacInnis ( Contribs) 21:17, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
While there has been a lot of discussion regarding fleet information latyout there has been little (as far as I can see) mention of retired fleets, i.e. should the information be included? I am all for including this information as I believe it is a) an important part of an airlines history (no fleet, no airline!) and b) it is interesting to see the way in which the airline's fleet has developed. If a decision relating to this has already been made, please forgive me, but could someone please enlighten me? RaseaC 22:53, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
A certain User:Lukla keeps on inserting images in the Cebu Pacific article! And I think that these images does not have proper copyright! For he said that he is the creator of this work, but from the aircraft images below the image their it states JetPhotos.Net! Below are the images he uploaded.
For now I'll revert all his edits. -chris^_^ 05:00, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone see a need for the Category:Airports by continent series of categories? If not, they need to be nominated at CfD. Vegaswikian 05:05, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
While conducting RC patrol a few days ago, I noticed a user making a number of changes to the fleet statistics of multiple airlines. User:71.112.102.126 made a total 129 changes on March 14 and 15. I don't know whether the changes are accurate (that's why I didn't revert them), but thought I should let editors at this project know (see the user's contribution history for a list of all the changes). I also noticed that there was a similar issue (raised above on this talk page) with another IP user in November 2006. -- Black Falcon 20:20, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I think we need to discuss some of the content of articles and how they reflect the stability of articles. As an encyclopedia, the content should be fairly constant and not need to be updated for changes to material that might not be encyclopedic.
For example, as a general rule, specific routes are not encyclopedic. There is no need to list the beginning and ending of these. For the airlines that have these listed, this seems to generate a lot of churn to the articles. I am not talking about including the destinations, which do update but less often, but rather a route from 'point a' to 'point b', sometimes with comments like the frequency of service. This information is not encyclopedic.
Likewise for the fleet age. This is a number that changes daily! While of some interest, it is not encyclopedic so it should not be included on every airline's fleet table. This might be notable in the history section with a citation for when the airline had the newest or the oldest fleet.
Then we have articles that include detailed code share information. This changes more often as agreements change and providing detail does not appear to be encyclopedic. For some small or less know airlines, this information could be significant so some exceptions should be allowed in these limited cases. In other cases, this seems to be included for marketing reasons rather then encyclopedic value. National pride is important, but it does not make including everything about a topic a good thing for the encyclopedia as a hole.
Comments?
Vegaswikian 20:47, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
On January 10, 2007, AirTran started service to Daytona Beach (DAB) and to Newburgh (SWF) utilizing their Boeing 717 aircraft. Ground handling is provided by Air Wisconsin, which also handles United Express/Mesa Airlines.
In June 2003, AirTran began new services operated by Ryan International Airlines to Denver, Las Vegas, and Los Angeles using Ryan International Airbus A320s painted in Air Tran livery, making it a coast-to-coast airline.
There's a new Collaboration of the month, Malaysia-Singapore Airlines, that may be of interest to editors here; any help there would be appreciated. Thanks! Trevor MacInnis ( Contribs) 19:33, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Sox23 - Just thought everyone should know. -- SmthManly / ManlyTalk / ManlyContribs 03:21, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I've noticed that some editors, when providing a citation to an article in Flight International, just give the publication name and date. Would it be possible for them to give more information (page and/or url, article title, etc) when doing so, such as by using the {{ cite news}} or similar template? -- Hawaiian717 17:57, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm noticing a large number of updates being made on a very regular basis to many articles for minor data updates. An encyclopedia should be somewhat static as encyclopedic information is generally not dynamic. I see this in frequent, or monthly, updates to information like the fleet age, or the tail numbers of the aircraft in the fleet.
I think as a project we need to question the value of updating this level of information so often. Maybe the real question is how much of this information really needs to be kept? With something like the fleet, should we have a guideline that says that we show a status at month end and then update as required the next month? Some of the updates have been solely to update the 'as of date with' no information changing! As a part of this, we might want to review the need for some of the trivial information being kept in articles about things like this.
Some of this is driven by articles that want to announce every route change. So we get one update to add a new route, not a new destination, an update when the flight schedule is announced, and update when the information changes and then an update when the route starts and maybe a final update to remove all of the announcement information. All of this for information that belongs in a travel directory and not an encyclopedia. Vegaswikian 18:46, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Looks like a large number of articles no longer follow the recommended structure. It would be nice to get the material in each article into the same order. Also someone has apparently decided that it is better to have history, livery, accident and other project recommended information in a trivia section and add non encyclopedic information in there as well. These articles need a concerted effort to get them back under control. Vegaswikian 23:59, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
With sortable tables is it time to replace IATA airline designator, ICAO airline designator and List of airline call signs with a single sortable table? This would put all information into a single place meaning only one update and probably resulting in more accurate information. The only downside I see, besides the time to implement, is that the sorting maybe slow. If this is done, I think the default order should be the airline name. Vegaswikian 19:38, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Would it be possible to get some more eyes on this. Based on this and this it would appear that there is an employee of Zoom editing the article. They are adding unsourced information to the article as can be seen in the history. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 07:58, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Trying hard to suggest that the Scottish company Zoom Airlines Limited (which is not yet an airline) be split into a separate article to return some sanity into the article, but the company employee is fighting hard. MilborneOne 19:30, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
It is now getting impossible to edit anything to do with Singapore Airlines, as User:Huaiwei insists on reverting ALL edits. The edits done by myself are to FACTUAL edits, yet he seems to want to revert everything to reflect pure marketing hogwash.
Examples of this are:
Singapore Airlines Cargo Singapore Airlines Cargo destinations
It is now getting beyond a joke that edits are being reverted, and not only that but various "fact" tags are also being removed. I see that this issue of SIA articles has gone to 'mediation' in the past without no outcome.
I had planned to do a wholesale edit of Singapore Airlines over the weekend, but what is the point when Huaiwei insists on reverting every edit done which does not agree with the marketing line he obviously wants to pursue?
Any pointers on what can be done appreciated. -- Russavia 17:26, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
(Outdent) Russavia continues to label my reverts as " Vandalism", when this is in actual fact a factual dispute. I would think members would read Talk:Singapore Airlines Cargo and Talk:Singapore Airlines Cargo destinations and make their independent judgements. Claiming my stubborness is the root of the problem seems to be a very convenient thing to do (helped, perhaps, by past grievances expressed by other users), when the very same problem probably inflict Russavia as well in numerous issues he attempts to get involved in. Consider, for instance, the rever wars he gets into over his personal claims on SIA not being a launch customer of the A380 [2], despite being proven wrong with sources. I would equally beg everyone's attention here in reassessing the "counter-propaganda" being pushed by the above user.-- Huaiwei 18:03, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Digging into Singapore Airlines and Singapore Airlines Cargo and their flights raises some questions.
I'm sure there are more but I'd like to hear what others think about these issues. Vegaswikian 23:33, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
An issue has arisen at Singapore Airlines Cargo destinations that I'd like to bring back here to discuss. I believe that it is the long standing guidance of the project that only airports where the aircraft owned by the airline, or affiliates that can be listed as d/b/a, fly to should be included in destinations lists. This means that destinations with service via a code share, partner airline, leased space on an aircraft of an another airline, or service provide by another carrier not operating under your call sign is not considered a destination. Is this correct? What seems to be at the heart of the problem is the difference in providing service vs. flying to an airport. Vegaswikian 19:47, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Is there a good reason why these two pages exist at all? — Kyриx 03:25, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
It seems that the dispute in regards to cargo airlines is now spreading to Emirates SkyCargo and Lufthansa Cargo. All of my edits are completely sourced and, when necessary, explained. But these edits are called "POV pushing" by User:Huaiwei. We need to get some outside opinion, and arbitration if needed, as it is not going to be possible to negotiate as full scale reverts are being done to these edits, even when additional information has been provided. How do we go about getting this? -- Russavia 12:03, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I take particular issue with Russavia's tendency of calling content disputes acts of vandalism, such as in [3], where a revert justified by "Stop vandalising the article Huaiwei. My edits are factually correct, your's are just plaing WRONG. Stop vandalising." appears grossly inappriopriate (and further aggrevated when an involved administrator proceeds to block the page moments after Russavia's revert [4]. Very disappointing, indeed.-- Huaiwei 12:35, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I think we should expand on the guidelines in the project. It states for code shares that: "Code share destinations should not be listed for the secondary carrier.". There should be a similar statement for Cargo carriers and it articles should reflect usage of the airline's own aircraft and not aircraft operated by other airlines/carriers even if there is some scheme in place. → AA ( talk • contribs) — 12:42, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Just to conclude this discussion then, it appears the consensus is to treat them as separate airlines and not to duplicate the information but simply refer to 'other' airline's article. Based on their comments (and edits), Vegaswikian & MilborneOne are supportive of this approach also but Huaiwei has argued against it. Huaiwei, please respect this consensus but if you still feel strongly against it, it may be appropriate for you to go for an WP:RfC. Also, as was mentioned somewhere, an alternative is to create an article about the cargo service of SIA/SIA Cargo if there is anything notable but the SIA Cargo article is for the airline itself. Thanks. → AA ( talk • contribs) — 23:27, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
I would say these are cargo destinations of SIA. They are not destinations of SQC. One may consider these destinations to be code-share destinations that SQC reaches, but we don't list code-share destinations. What I'd suggest is to list these destinations under SIA with a note, to tell readers that these cargo capacities are all retailed by SQC, and link SIA's list of destinations from SQC's list of destinations. Michael G. Davis 22:53, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Please indicate your view by taking part in the straw poll below.
Should destinations/fleets of subsidiary/sister airlines be included in articles of cargo operators where they also exclusively manage those fleets' cargo space?
Yes:
No:
Not Sure:
Is it just me or does it seem that the group of editors who have a vendetta against these articles are nominating them over and over until they get the outcome they desire? I can't find it anymore, but there's a page about abuse of the afd process. DB ( talk) 04:17, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Based on the current AfD, it appears that some of the delete votes would be changed if the character of these lists were changed to included historical information. Since the AfD looks like it will fail, I think we should consider adding this information to those lists. At this time, I don't know how had this will be while keeping the data verifiable.
Also we would need to format the data so that it takes less space then the current layout and allows users to look at the data in different ways. I'm not sure how we want to address the references issue since the list could get rather long on each page. I don't know if that is a problem or not but I'll show a suggested solution in the suggestions that follow. Likewise how do we deal with service that was ended and then resumed? Does it stay in the table? Of course comments are encouraged.
City | Country | Began | Ended | Comments |
---|---|---|---|---|
Miami | United States | 1980 | 2006 | Service transfered to US Airways |
Fresno | United States | 1987 | 1993 | Service transfered to America West Express |
Honolulu | United States | 1989 | 1991 | Service resumed in 2006 |
Nagoya | Japan | 1989 | 1990 | Service resumed in 1993 |
Nagoya | Japan | 1993 | 1996 | Service resumed in 1998 |
Nagoya | Japan | 1998 | 1999 |
Vegaswikian 21:03, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
City | Airport | Country | Began | Ended | Comments |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
Honolulu | Honolulu International Airport | United States | 1989 | 1991 | |
Honolulu | Honolulu International Airport | United States | 2006 | current | |
Cancún | Cancún International Airport | Mexico | 1989 | 1995 | operated seasonally May-September |
There have been discussions previously regarding historical destinations and the general feel is they are very difficult to verify so would fail WP:V in most cases.
I have created Template:Airlines_of_the_People's_Republic_of_China as it was not yet implemented. I think we need to gather some group consensus as to what should and shouldn't be included in it. My train of thought is that only airlines which are given certification to fly by the CAAC should be included. This means that airlines which are based in Hong Kong and Macau are not included as Hong Kong and Macau have their own civil aviation authorities with oversight for licencing, safety, international agreement, etc. Some think that Hong Kong and Macau airlines should be included in the template. Hong Kong already has its own template. Thoughts/comments? -- Russavia 04:58, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Following on from Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Airlines#Airlines_of_the_People.27s_Republic_of_China it doesn't seem there is a standard in the drop-down Airlines of *** templates which are placed in articles. Perhaps there should be a standard? What should and should not be included? How to present it? There seems to be different ways of doing this.
So should there be a standard, and what would be the best way of presenting this? -- Russavia 05:30, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Going thru a heap of the airlines in the last week or so, it has astounded me how many start-ups there really are. With start-ups the fact is that prob 90% of them will never get past the planning stage, let alone actually have a single flights. In terms of an encyclopaedia, how do we treat these companies? Start-ups such as Virgin America will very likely get off the ground. Same as Tiger Airways Australia. But what about such start-ups as Blackstar Airlines, Air Gumbo, etc? Just how encyclopaedic are they? What about Family Airlines? This is a company which never got off the ground on two occasions, yet they have their own entry. Should the entry for Family Airlines even exist in an encyclopaedia? I would say probably not. Many of these start-ups work purely on PR put out by press releases which are put out in the hope that some news organisation will pick up on them. So where do we draw the line? As an example, I have put Ansett Regional Airlines up for afd Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ansett Regional Airlines
Also, I have split up the US start-ups into Category:Start-up_airlines_of_the_United_States. These aren't true airlines yet, but merely companies with some PR and intentions (some real, some not). Once they have taken flights, they should be moved to their respective category. Thoughts/comments on that? -- Russavia 19:19, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Someone has put Backpackers Express up for speedy deletion just recently also. What is going to happen in regards to such articles? What is the 'list' that you mentioned Vegas? -- Russavia 17:19, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Just on notability on these start ups for a sec. Does anyone remember the grandiose plans by the now convicted Scottish paedophile? That guy (NDR) generated a lot of press with his plans to buy 44 TriStars from Delta, even appearing in some industry magazines and newspapers. Yet, many in the early stages (myself included) knew it was a sham, and by the time it exactly what he was, everyone knew there was no substance to his supposed airline. It was the figment of his imagination. Before he was outed, his pipedream would have clearly passed all applicable tests on WP, particularly when it came to WP:RS. One of the figments of his imagination already exists, City Connexion Airlines. There are plenty of others out there like this, in relation to be being hoaxes, pipedreams and wishful thinking by armchair CEOs. Just some food for thought. -- Russavia 02:16, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Has there been some discussion somewhere to agree on the mass removal of Skytrax links in the EL section of all airline articles? If so, could someone point me in that direction please. If not, as I believe to be the case, could I suggest to editors that changes on this scale be first discussed to prevent mass reverts and edit wars. On this particular issue, Russavia ( talk · contribs) has been removing all links to Skytrax. I also notice that the Skytrax article itself was nominated for deletion by Russavia. I don't have any strong opinions either way but would like to discuss this with the community at large to gauge consensus to potentially avoid revert wars in future.
As I see it, Skytrax is a notable organisation providing independent research of Airlines and Airports. The discussion forums for each airline (for which the links have been removed) are moderated and therefore prevent abusive or libellous comments on the airlines but do present genuine customer feedback.
In my opinion, it meets the criteria for WP:EL and is valid to be included in the articles.→ AA ( talk • contribs) — 20:21, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Ditto per RaseaC.
Additionally, there is a distinct difference between the average discussion forum and opinion website when compared to the Skytrax ones. Firstly, Skytrax's awards are based on the surveys it conducts and the customer opinions received therefore they carry a greater weight and representation. These opinions are accepted by highly notable organisations such as
Forbes [13], OAG [14], CNN [15], BBC [16]. These are just a few of the 160k+ ghits. The question then, is does this make the Skytrax awards and opinions/forums suitable for inclusion in the EL section of articles? There are much worse sites linked across many articles in WP - which, although cannot be used as an argument for inclusion, is still worth bearing in mind when reviewing the criteria at WP:EL.
WP:EL#Links normally to be avoided starts by saying "Except for a link to a page that is the subject of the article or an official page of the article subject—and not prohibited by restrictions on linking—one should avoid:". The links are indeed to pages that are the subject of the article. I don't believe the links come under point 10 as it is not a "social networking site". They are not covered by 11 because they are not user blogs.
However, my main reason for bringing this discussion here is to highlight that bot changes on this scale should not be made without first discussing them with the community.
To answer Russavia's comments on the status of the company, a company does not need to be registered under it's trading name. It may be registered under a different name which I'm pretty sure it is as if it was just a "joke", I wouldn't expect serious publications/organisations to take much notice of it. → AA ( talk • contribs) — 20:39, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
I think this quote above is highly misleading: "The project guidelines say for external links "Do not include un-encyclopedic opinion web sites""
3 points:
I have nominated El Al for a FA status following its recent awarding of GA Status. Please feel free to leave comments at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/El Al. -- Flymeoutofhere 07:08, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
There are hundreds if not thousands of listings by country managed by this WikiProject. But many of them present an anomaly from what is common beyond this WikiProject and in printed publications outside Wikipedia. Take the lists of airline destinations for example, some countries that are not sovereign states are not listed as countries, but as divisions of countries. These include countries such as the United States Virgin Islands, Puerto Rico, American Samoa, Hong Kong, etc. As this project deals with airlines, I would consider the ICAO and IATA country code lists good bases for reference. Michael G. Davis 23:21, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
The last discussion on this didn't really reach any conclusions, but I think the guideline on frequent flyer programs needs to be changed. Even large and notable programs such as AAdvantage (the first in existence) have been marged back in. However, I got opposition - citing this project - when I put a merge request on LANPASS. If AAdvantage and Executive Club are not notable enough for their own articles, then this one certainly isn't. How about just changing the guideline to only include multi-airline programs (Miles & More, etc.) and programs not actually run by a carrier (Aeroplan and the like)? DB ( talk) 03:03, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
The terms hub and focus city are in my mind very American and possibly Euro-centric terms and don't quite work in entries for smaller airlines and airlines from many other parts of the world.
As an example, Northwest Airlines has hubs in MSP, DTW, MEM, NRT and AMS and has IND and HNL as focus cities. The operations of the airline directly correlate to the definitions of the hub and focus city (hub and spoke) airline operation.
Then we have Aeroflot, which has SVO as its hub; it is a hub in the definitive sense in that passengers will fly Aeroflot from other cities and transfer at SVO to the rest of the airlines' network.
Then we have Polar Airlines, it is based in Yakutsk, and utilising templates of this project, its hubs are: Yakutsk, Batagai, Belaya Gora, Magan, Moma, Nyubra, Olekminsk, Srednekolymsk and Tiksi. However, this is not accurate, not even for Yakutsk. Not all airlines operate on the hub and spoke model. Using Polar Airlines as the example, a passenger in Ust-Maya will fly Polar Airlines to Yakutsk for one of two reasons; either their intended destination is Yakutsk, or somewhere further afield (such as say Moscow) where Polar does not fly to. Traffic between Ust-Maya and Cherskiy via Yakutsk would be minimal if not non-existent, and even if there was traffic between these two points, the schedules of the airline do not fit in with it being a hub as a 3 or 4 days layover in Yakutsk would be necessary, so this doesn't quite fulfill the 'transfer' operation of a hub and spoke airline. Then we have the other 'hubs' of the airline, for example, Batagai. Operations from Batagai are limited, but the airline does base aircraft there, as it does in the other 'hubs', but the operations don't fulfill the definition of a focus city. They are more correctly defined as bases for the airline.
Kyrgyzstan Airlines is another example, Manas is more of a base for the airline, rather than a hub as most traffic originates from or going to Bishkek. There are limited destinations (well Moscow only actually) serviced from Osh, and Karakol is used in the summer season for direct point-to-point flights. Manas is a base, Osh is a secondary base, Karakol is a base on a limited basis.
Now transplant this to a larger airline, and an example is El Al. The airline is based in Tel Aviv, but does it actually hub there? According to Yoah Levy, the vice president for commercial and industry affairs, it does not. El Al is purely a point to point airline. Quote: “In North America, we are the dominant airline. We operate up to six flights a day to the six destinations of New York JFK, Newark, Chicago, Miami, Los Angeles and Toronto. In the summer we deploy the 747-400 and the 777. We also dominate the Asian routes. We are the only airline to fly non-stop from BGN to Bangkok, Peking, Bombay and Hong Kong. However, we are not able to exploit this advantage to the full, as international passengers do not use Tel Aviv as a hub for Asia. On the other hand, we are able to offer Israelis non-stop flights with full service." Endquote [17] Ben Gurion is a base for El Al, not a hub.
We really should be taking the various types of airline operations into account in the articles, particularly within infoboxes and the like, as not all airlines operate the same way as many American and European airlines. -- Russavia 02:04, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Could everyone have a look at Wikipedia:WikiProject Aviation/Aviation Project Coordinator Proposal, and make any comments there. This is an idea that the Military History project uses, and their production of high quality articles far exceeds ours. - Trevor MacInnis ( Contribs) 23:55, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Could fellow members please comment on the following issue on the above two airlines?
For reasons as yet unknown, the Air Sylhet logo and name is registered as a trademark of Royal Bengal Airline, another recent startup airline competing in the same space as Air Sylhet.
For reasons as yet unknown, among the trademarks registered to Royal Bengal Airline, is the name and logo of Air Sylhet, another recent startup airline competing in the same space as Royal Bengal Airline.
However, as soon as I had done this some anon editors started removing it. The discussion page of Royal Bengal Airline was also virtually blanked where discussion of this info had occurred. I had to request page protection to prevent the disruption by anons who were not engaging in dialogue.
The latest development is a "psuedo" legal warning not to include this information (See this talk page discussion).
My opinion is that both companies are actively advertising for investment from the general public and information on this trademark dispute is valuable information to people intending to invest so it should be presented and I have kept it succinct and factual with no allegations or inferences drawn for either airline.
What is the opinion of others here? I have said that I will go with the consensus from the WP:AIRLINE community.
→ AA ( talk • contribs) — 22:46, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Royal Bengal Airline is knowingly registered the trademark of AIR SYLHET PLC from the Airsylhet.com official website. If you have a good vision, perhaps look very carefully the Air Sylhet logo is identical in IPO database. If the logo was different in IPO website, then perhaps you can say UNKNOWN. This is not the case. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.44.163.215 ( talk)
Having a look at my watchlist it seems a lot of the airline logos are being deleted due to there being no fair use rationale provided. It would seem that the required fair use rationale is what is on Image:British_Airways_logo.png. I have been going thru and adding fair use rationales to any which come up in my watchlist, but I only have a small percentage of airline articles on my watchlist, so perhaps other editors could check those for which they are regulars on and add the rationale, if it isn't already present. -- Russavia 03:02, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Some concerns have been raised at the Japan Airlines article that the logo has some copyright issues. I have added a fair use rationale - but some are concerned that the resolution in its use in the article is perhaps too high, do you think the resolution should be lowered? Unfortunately the person who uploaded the image does not seem to want to want to talk about it ( User_talk:RadicalBender) Camaron1 | Chris 14:54, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
I'll also mention that while we're at it; if you're editing a logo page to add a fair use rationale, you might want to check to see if it's properly sorted into Category:Airline logos by having |Airline logos in the license template. -- Hawaiian717 18:30, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Now that it seems clear that articles on aircraft by tail number are generally not going to be notable, N135CR at AfD, I'd like to ask if any use of extensive or inclusive lists of tail numbers in articles have sufficient notability to be kept. I'm thinking that these are non encyclopedic listcruft. One obvious possible exception would be for Frontier Airlines where there is unique art associated with each tail number. Should the project be updated to address this? Vegaswikian 21:13, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
While patrolling new pages recently, I noticed Air Ivoire destinations and another new destinations article lacked verifiable reliable sources. I pointed this out by placing the "sources" template on the articles.
A user I think may be a part of this project asked me about the template I applied, pointing out that these articles routinely lack sources. He also removed the templates, and I haven't replaced them because it became apparent to me that the issue is one with what appears to be the whole class of destinations articles.
I think we all accept that there are official policies of this project we must abide by like WP:V and WP:OR. I'm concerned that these pages do not live by that standard. I have noticed that they have been to AfD on at least two occasions and have survived, so my intention here is not to march them back to that possible status. Instead, I thought I'd raise the issue here to see if there is a project consensus as to what to do. It just seemed a better course of action than a Request for Comment, but that may be the next necessary step.
The biggest question appears to be whether these pages are actually a part of your project. I haven't noticed any destinations articles carrying this project template on their talk pages, but they do appear to clearly be related. Erechtheus 14:37, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
I've been using AutoWikiBrowser to add fair use rationales to the images in Category:Airline logos (yes, I know not all of them are there, but its a start), and some of the images there are really big. Some were over 6000 pixels wide. I think those don't pass the requirement that fair use logos be low resolution. Unless anyone objects I'm going to start scaling them down to a lower resolution in the next few days. -- Hawaiian717 16:20, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
The Puerto Rican airline Air Culebra is up for deletion. Here is the AfD. (Note: I did not initiate this Afd. It is listed here becuase it falls into the scope of this project.) -- Oakshade 03:33, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Just deleted an incident added to the Shuttle America article, I removed it as non-notable as it was about an aircraft being delayed for seven hours. User:PaulinSaudi has reverted the deletion on the grounds that a seven hour delay is a notable incident. Can anybody have look and provide a second/third opinion please. Thanks . MilborneOne 15:11, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm gonna make destination list of airlines, and I'll update the current lists. I was wondering... should we state our references in the article because I notice that most destination lists has no references stated. -chris^_^ 08:35, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
I noticed that all destinations of AirAsia and their subsidiaries (except FlyAsianXpress) is in one destination list, shouldn't we separate these per airline? -chris^_^ 10:32, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
I have removed some images sourced from Airliners.net in the Eastern Airways article, User:Rawky123 keeps putting the images back including declaring on the images pages that The copyright holder allows anyone to use it for any purpose... Despite this the images themselves clearly show they are copyrighted by individuals. I have removed them twice now and not wanting to break 3RR rules can anybody help. Can we challenge the images themselves? MilborneOne 22:02, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Hi, can I have some input over at the above article regarding notability please? See also the relevant discusion at the bottom of my talk page. Thanks Blood Red Sandman (Talk) (Contribs) 23:38, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Can somone take a look at Retrojet? Is this a dictdef, nonsense or something that needs expansion? Vegaswikian 05:54, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Dear fellow Wikiproject Airliners, I made an image for your airline stub at the commons. Please replace the PNG asap. Thanks! -- JackLau 09:32, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Heads up, folks...{{ Air Transport Association}} has been nominated at TfD ( here) for what seems to be a fairly flimsy reason...consider visiting the TfD page and speaking your piece, whichever side you're on. AKRadecki Speaketh 14:44, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Yeesh ... someone want to take a look over there? It's a mess of reversions between two users right now, and I'm not really going to bother jumping in until they're done. But, anyway, there's a ton of forked articles over there, some of which probably aren't entirely necessary; List of largest airlines in the World, for example. I'll fix it up eventually, but if there's any specific style this Wikiproject wants to jump in and use, now might be a good time. — Rebelguys2 talk 03:59, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
With some of the cleanup in Category:Airlines it has exposed an interesting missing cat. We have categories for Air ambulance services, Cargo airlines, Defunct airlines, Helicopter airlines, and Low-cost airlines but not for charter airlines or passenger airlines. Should these be added? Vegaswikian 21:57, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I have nominated the following for Afd
Airlines of Pakistan List of airlines in Ukraine List of airlines in Serbia
Last week List of airlines based in Nepal was put up for afd, and was deleted, as it should be
As these are squarely within this project scope, others should make known their opinions on such lists at the relevant Afds. -- Russavia 12:08, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Any objections to letting User:MiszaBot_II automatically archive the contents of this talk page? Vegaswikian 07:07, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Several months ago, the financial performance of British Airways was put up. Is it useful to include it on other airlines? The reports are quite easy to find - they should all be available to the public. At a minimum, the passengers flown is a useful piece of data, along with maybe turnover. I personally used the data in the BA article for a school coursework and it can be useful to readers. American airlines' report can be found here [21], simply by searching "airline annual report". -- TheTall One 19:21, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Looks like we need to better define this. Apparently AirTran Airways is now considering any city they serve from 5 destinations to be a focus city. This makes for a very long infobox. It is also causing some reverts. Can we arrive at a better definition? Starting with 5 would mean that many airports become focus cities. This is apparently based on something in here, but I just don't see it. For now I'm going to revert these out again. Vegaswikian 02:54, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
In going thru the categories which relate to this project, and having a look at literally hundreds of articles, I think that an improvement to the current infobox might be a good idea.
The current infobox currently has the following options:
This infobox is placed on all airline articles, and I don't feel it fits in with all airline operations. Refer to The term hub/focus city as one example of why this is, and specifically why these infoboxes are too American and Euro centric, but moreso American-centric.
My suggestion would be that we have one infobox for current airlines and one infobox for defunct airlines (and possibly even one infobox for planned/start-up airlines), with additional options in the infobox, which could include the following:
Additionally, for Russian/CIS airlines, there needs to be an additional field which is unique to these airlines, that being the internal codes. If you look at Polar Airlines and Chukotavia you will see they have no IATA or ICAO or even callsigns. But they do have internal codes, e.g. ЯП is Polar Airlines, АД is Chukotavia. Even major airlines have these codes, e.g. СУ is Aerflot, УН is Transaero, С7 is S7 Airlines. These codes are not used for international flights, but rather domestic flights and inter-CIS flights. They should be included as they are major identifiers for these airlines, and I would make a stand-alone infobox for these airlines to add this option in, but am not sure how to do this.
Throwing this open for comment, additional options, etc, etc. -- Russavia 20:24, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I was just going to ask if we could add Bases to the Airline template. I think this is a great idea and we really do need to do something about the infobox. It is not universal for all airlines right now, and the changes proposed would really help w/ the problem. Sox 23 05:04, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Can some others take a look at List of Airline Holding Companies I'm not sure what to do about the article, but deletion is at the top of my list. I'm not sure that the amount of work needed to clean this up is worth the effort. Vegaswikian 01:55, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I decided to nominate this on AfD if anyone wants to participate. Vegaswikian 02:21, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
There is an IP user who keeps changing the callsign from the official ICAO AIRFRANS to AIR FRANCE, despite comments to discuss on the talk page and cite the change he/she is changing it every few minutes. We can only revert so many time an hour! can anybody help. MilborneOne 21:21, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Category:Airline Marketing Sub-Brands is nominated here. Vegaswikian 02:29, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
I just found {{ Airlines of the United States}} and it seems like this adds a ton of nav boxes when used. Not so sure that it is a good idea. Also some of these take up huge amounts of vertical space making the contents useless as a navigation box.
One suggestion would be to make this one only be a nav box for the other templates.
Comments? Vegaswikian 22:06, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Check out Proposed Cathay Pacific destinations. I do believe it is a possible candidate for an AFD?-- Huaiwei 13:29, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
There is an anon editor adding terms like 'advertising sub-brands', 'marketing sub brands' and simply sub brands. These appear to be nothing but brands that are used by airlines. To avoid confusion I suggest that we only use the term 'brand' to describe these cases. One could argue that the every airline is an advertising or marketing brand so adding those terms is redundant. Vegaswikian 19:45, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
As much as I don't want to do this, I have put List of largest airlines in Oceania up for AfD, because it miserably fails WP:V and WP:OR. The other articles in this series are also clearly in breach of these policies, and depending on the outcome of this AfD (I was almost inclined to put them all up as a group) will pursue those too. It is better to have no information than non-verifiable information. -- Russavia 17:28, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Singapore Airlines fleet, Malaysia Airlines Fleet and Thai Airways International fleet have been placed for Afd, project members may want to weigh in with their opinions against or for deletion. -- Russavia 12:16, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
What exactly is a commercial airline? For the purpose of this encyclopedia, I believe that it is any subsidiary, division or other entity that markets as an airline exclusive of charter operators and operations. If we adopt too narrow of a view, then the names would not be listed as an airline in categories and the categories would lose value. Vegaswikian 17:28, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Over at Singapore Airlines, I have been attempting to clean up this article for the last 6 months due to the advertisement like state it is in, in addition to it containing too much unencyclopaedic information. Unfortunately, Huaiwei reverts such edits on sight claiming that concensus has been found to include them; this concensus including himself and one other editor, without taking into account the results of Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2007-01-07_Singapore_Airlines (a mediation in which he made clear he had no intention of paying any notice to) and Wikipedia:WikiProject_Airlines guidelines. The guidelines states:
Code share destinations should not be listed for the secondary carrier.
Do we as a project stand by these guidelines and can they be used as concensus to remove codeshare destinations from articles such as Singapore Airlines and Thai Airways International (and others no doubt)? In other words, do we remove codeshare destinations from articles and only list their codeshare partners?
Please indicate below if you support or oppose the guidelines, so that concensus can be gathered for once and for all.
Is there a standard to which these articles should comply? I just stumbled across Widerøe destinations in my assessing drive and it looks a lot better than, for example, Air Canada destinations. Perhaps a standard should be decided upon and articles brought up to code? - Trevor MacInnis ( Contribs) 15:22, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I have recently reformatted destination lists for Aeroflot and Domodedovo International Airport into a collapsable table inline in the article. I saw this done by an editor on Belavia, and it looks good in my opinion. Also, I would keep terminated destinations out, as it would be near on impossible to source this for some airlines---prime example, it would be impossible to source all terminated destinations of Aeroflot due to the sheer number of destinations they used to fly to---additionally, IMO terminated destinations are not encyclopaedic (some would say we are already pushing it with listing current destinations), and they don't belong on WP -- Russavia 16:58, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
As per the changes made by Vegaswikian, I too support the format, however, I would prefer to leave them as a collapsable list (so long as this is inline with WP policies?) -- Russavia 02:03, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Comment: I note with alarm Russavia's aggresive attempts to turn Aeroflot destinations into a redirect page, enforcing a perception that his collapsable table presented in Aeroflot has been finalised and agreed upon. I also note his sudden interest in going through practically all articles in Category:Airline destinations and tagging all articles with {{Unreferenced}} tags (when he could instead spent time to insert the references himself), which kicked off in earnest just moments after the revert warring over at Aeroflot destinations. I sense storm clouds ahead.-- Huaiwei 18:03, 17 October 2007 (UTC) Two cases in point:
It should also be noted that the guidelines of this project do not insist that there should be a separate page for destination lists, but that there can be a separate page. Additionally, it should also be noted that other editors have incorporated these collapsable lists into the main airline article, British Mediterranean Airways being one, Belavia being another (I did the Aeroflot article after seeing Zscouts edit on the Belavia article. As to my tagging of article, it is not my sole responsibility to find sources for every piece of unsourced information on Wikipedia, it is the responsibility of editors who are adding information to provide this information, and if you anyone thinks that I am going to scour through hundreds of articles to ensure that the thousands upon thousands of destinations are verified, then they are sorely mistaken. If this project says that such destination lists are essential for the aims of the project, then these lists need to be referenced, and this needs to be a collaborative effort, not left up to a single editor to do. -- Russavia 18:59, 17 October 2007 (UTC)