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New article has been created Criticism of Ryanair - must get an award for not being NPOV and that is just the title! MilborneOne 19:00, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm just curious but how should we list the destinations of regional airlines, like NW Airlink for example? Should we list them in an article named Northwest Airlink destinations then separate it by the destinations served by the different regional carriers, or list them in the carrier operating for the airline? -chris^_^ 05:56, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Since certain users persist in arguing semantics and preventing any sort of consensus from being reached, I'm going to force us all to repeat our statements above in a a way that hopefully is completely unambiguous. Question Number 1: Should articles include tables listing flight numbers by destination? -- Hawaiian717 16:01, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Since certain users persist in arguing semantics and preventing any sort of consensus from being reached, I'm going to force us all to repeat our statements above in a a way that hopefully is completely unambiguous. Question Number 2: Should the fleet tables in articles include individual aircraft tail numbers? -- Hawaiian717 16:04, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Should the same apply to the flight number sections? How about the tail numbers for all of the aircraft? Vegaswikian 20:03, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
There is now a new page, Wikipedia:WikiProject Aviation/Maintenance, that lists backlogged areas needing work, articles not covered under the assessment, etc. It is automatically updated by a bot daily. If your looking for something to do, check it out. If there is anything that you would like to see covered, let me know. - Trevor MacInnis ( Contribs) 23:58, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Should the individual airline articles be including the fleet tables for EVERY SINGLE AIRLINE that is part of the parent company? I think those fleet tables should only be included in List of Airline Holding Companies. For example, I don't see why it's relevant to list the fleet of ATA Airlines in an article about North American Airlines just because they're a part of the same parent company (in this case, Global Aero Logistics. Without a doubt the tables should be included in the parent company articles, but I don't think they should be included in articles about another airline. Any comments? Sox 23 22:46, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
It has long rankled me that pages in Category:Airline_destinations which I visit commonly contain incorrect, outdated, and/or unsupported information. Is it the position of WikiProject Airlines that these articles are exempt from WP's verifiability policy?
Examples:
-- Boracay Bill 00:47, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Do you really need a reference after every single one? It's the same reference for each one and I feel like if we just put it after "Virgin America currently flies to 5 destinations throughout the United States" in the opening that would be fine. NcSchu( Talk) 23:41, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
WP should avoid including any information, airline destinations being a very good example, which is liable to rapid and unpredictable change and which is readily found elsewhere. Including such information reduces the value of WP as a source, because the unwary user may trust the information. The wary user will go to the horse's mouth, in this case the airline, for accurate and up-to-date information. WP should therefore include links to such sources and eliminate unreliable information. treesmill ( talk) 01:30, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm not particularly fond of the verifiability going on in the McCarran International Airport article. All of those references are making the info look cluttered. If we're going to reference the destinations, then just have one or two after the destinations; like the model in Port Columbus International Airport. This way, the destinations are cited, and it doesn't make the information distracting. Any comments? Sox 23 05:21, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Inetpup and I were having a discussion that would end up in not reaching any consensus if it went on. The background of this situation is that Inetpup wants to add bullet points to the list of airports in the infobox (hubs and focus cities), but I disagree with the change, citing that it looked much uglier than it should. Comments? 哦, 是吗?( User:O) 21:51, 19 November 2007 (GMT)
}}
and cause text below it to render in a corrupt manner.--
Inetpup (
talk) 23:18, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
.--
Inetpup (
talk) 22:56, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
My guess is that WP sees a similar breakdown. -- Boracay Bill ( talk) 11:51, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
-- Inetpup ( talk) 06:46, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
The results seem pretty stable now. There was not a perfect consensus but this issue is resolved. Out of nine votes, 66.67% supported the bullets, 11.11% dissented, and 22.22% didn't care. Since the results are definitive enough, we should feel free to change the hubs into to the new format.-- Inetpup ( talk) 19:02, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Can someone take a look at National Airlines/Private Jet Expeditions? If this is real, it probably needs to be moved to article space from being a subpage. Vegaswikian ( talk) 19:35, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm planning to revise the destination layout on the destinations pages of the regional destinations such as Chautauqua Airlines destinations since the current layout takes up a lot of space. I'm suggesting to change the layout simillar with Oneworld destinations by placing the IATA code of the mainline carrier beside the destination. What do you guys think? -chris^_^ ( talk) 09:34, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Just noticed a user adding airport categories to US airlines for example Category:Stapleton International Airport to Continental Airlines. As this has a potential to add over 290 categories to this airline in particular and other US airlines had this been brought up for discussion anywhere? Is it a good idea? MilborneOne ( talk) 20:50, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
List of airports in the Philippines appears to have a problem. Apparently in the Philippines, they commonly use the last 3 characters of the UN location codes to identify airports locally. Some editors are apparently insisting on calling this the IATA code. I have no problem using that code in the table as long as it is not called an IATA code which it is apparently not. Vegaswikian ( talk) 03:58, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Hello members of WikiProject Airlines,
I just wondered if anyone is interested in helping us with a new wiki, Plane Spotting World.
Please let me know if you;re interested!
Bluegoblin 7 19:33, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
A user has just renamed Template:Airlines of the United Kingdom to Template:UK Airlines have I missed something has this been discussed anywhere ? MilborneOne ( talk) 20:48, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
There is an AfD debate ongoing regarding the article Clickair destinations. While the page clearly complies with WikiProject Airlines guidelines on destinations lists (by taking long destinations lists off the main page into a dedicated article as this one) the suggestion is that the article does not belong in an encyclopedia and that it should be removed (without subseqent replication on the original Clickair page).
I am concerned that this would set a significant precedent for all airline articles and the 236 other airline destinations articles on Wikipedia. I would appreciate the views of other members and interested editors both here and at the AfD debate where I have already given my own thoughts. SempreVolando ( talk) 09:09, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
I have nominated Singapore Airlines Flight 380 for Afd. As we don't have the ability to call upon nationalistic tendencies in any keep/delete reasonings, project members are urged to weigh in with their opinions on the matter. -- Russavia ( talk) 21:27, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
The only thing I have to say, is that I have nothing to say, but will let the links do the talking.
Most of it is mere duplication of content in the main article, and this fanboy behaviour is seen on other articles such as Malaysia Airlines, Thai Airways International and Singapore Airlines (funnily enough the creator of the Emirates navbox has used the Singapore Airlines navbox as a guide, but has stupidly left some of the Singapore Airlines in it).
This really does need to stop, the amount of absolutely irrelevant information in the airline articles is getting totally out of hand, and I will begin by simply nominating some these articles for deletion. There is no other way, is there? -- Russavia ( talk) 18:02, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Just a heads up that I have put Emirates Airline Marketing and sponsorships up for Afd, which you can view here. Interested project members should weigh in with their opinions in the negative or positive. -- Russavia ( talk) 18:31, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Just a heads up that I have put Emirates Airlines awards and accolades, Malaysia Airlines awards, and Singapore Airlines awards and accolades up for Afd (bundled together), which you can view here. Interested project members should weigh in with their opinions in the negative or positive. -- Russavia ( talk) 18:34, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
I think that the British Caledonian article needs some attention. You have the main article, then these:
I did propose article mergers sometime ago, but those were removed by the editor who is responsible for these articles. Shy of Afd'ing them, what is the best approach to get all relevant information back on the main article page? -- Russavia ( talk) 20:22, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
(copy and update of my own text, which I'd posted to the wrong spot)
I just did a massive re-write of Go_Fly because it had been unsourced for more than one year and read like a non-bulleted timeline with the associated lack of flow. Anyone have anything to add? I tried to keep it as "Go" focused as possible since easyJet, Ayling and Cassani have their own articles and we were entering the Department of Redundancy Department. In addition, the scope of the article is about Go, not the effects of Go on the other entities (except the BA relationship, which I attempted to address). I think the article is much better than it was, but there's probably still some work to be done. This is my first full-scale re-write under Aviation/Airlines so I'm definitely seeking your input. I'm not certain what needs to be added at this point for an airline that hasn't operated for 5+ years. Thoughts? Thanks! Travellingcari ( talk) 00:22, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Should we remove the advertised destination tag under the destinations of Skybus Airlines on Skybus Airlines destinations. My opinion is we should remove this for it just makes the list longer. -chris^_^ ( talk) 07:54, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
While working on Mahalo Air today, I started to wonder what is the best way to handle the fleet size in the infobox for airlines that are no longer flying. Should it be zero since the airline no longer has any airplanes? Should it show the largest number of airplanes operated at any single time? Should it show the total number of airplanes ever operated by the airline? I would be tempted to say that it shouldn't show up at all for airlines that no longer operate; if this is the way to go I'd suggest someone more familiar with the template's complex syntax can make it disappear when the value is omitted, rather than appearing as a blank spot like it currently does. -- Hawaiian717 ( talk) 23:45, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
An anonymous editor recently added IATA codes to many of the airlines listed on {{ Navbox Airlines of the United States}}. I haven't seen any discussion of doing this on here; what do others think? I'm not sure I like it. -- Hawaiian717 ( talk) 16:40, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
The peer review for EasyJet is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! - Trevor MacInnis ( Contribs) 03:27, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Should these be included on the current destination pages? On some, there are so many destinations that it could be very confusing for the reader. If these should stay, shouldn't they have their own article? Sox 23 21:10, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
WhisperToMe ( talk) 03:31, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Check out Tiger Airways destinations and Jetstar Asia Airways destinations, where a table format is being demonstrated and former destinations presented accordingly with sources. Granted, both are smaller airlines which makes it easy to track such information. Not sure if this is plausible for giant airlines thou.-- Huaiwei ( talk) 10:18, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
This is my take on terminated destinations. They don't belong at all. Take this recent Afd, there is the thought by an increasing amount of editors that even the current destination lists do not belong, although they have used the wrong arguments IMO, none of them really jumped upon something which I mentioned myself, that being that most of the CURRENT destination lists are not sourced to third-party reliable sources; this is an essential part of WP:V. This means that we can not have separate airline destination lists sourced entirely to the airline, as per WP:SPS and WP:SELFPUB, these lists need to be sourced to a third-party source, and IMO it is not as simple as simply claiming OAG.com as a source, as sources which require registration, and moreso payment, such as OAG, should be avoided at all costs as it doesn't allow for verifying by other editors. Back in October 2007, I went thru all of the airline destination lists and attached the unreferenced template to them; now some 4-5 months later the vast majority of these lists are still unreferenced, and some have had the template removed and a source placed along the lines of "Source: XYZ Airline" with a link to their website. Pick a random airline destination list, and see if it is referenced inline with WP:V, very few of them are. As more and more things get added to these lists, such as frequencies, notes, and now terminated destinations, all of which are sourced back to the airline, the more and more I am being swayed myself to believe that these lists are becoming more duplications of an airlines website, and that is squarely against various points of WP:NOT. Something else that is concerned with this discussion, there is an increasing tendency in this project for long and sprawling lists and "PR" to take precedence over encycloapedic prose; take a look at most airline articles, and under the Destinations and there is simply a link to the destinations article, with not a single word of prose included. Before we, as a project, even consider whether terminated destinations should be included, the issue of verifiability needs to be looked at first and resolved. -- Russavia ( talk) 13:27, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
And that is actually the problem in regards to WP:SELFPUB Hawaiian. The quotes to follow are from an admin who participated on the Afd for Clickair destinations, and I quote him
Regarding that it is a "not a stand alone article" (Russavia), it may be intended to function as a part of the article on the company but it doesn't. It is in the mainspace and is thus ipso facto stand alone. More importantly, while the distinction is at least colorably relevant for notability considerations, as that is a topic inclusion standard, it is irrelevant for WP:NOT and WP:V considerations as those are content inclusion standards. The issue is not why it became a separate article, but whether the content is appropriate, anywhere. In the article, or stand alone, the material suffers from the same defect. If it was still listed in the article, then it would be inapproriate there for the same reasons. The only difference is that because it is in the mainspace, we are here, rather than on Clickair's talk page, but the WP:NOT and verifiability issues would be the same.
What he has written makes absolute sense. These destination list are not lists which can be used as red-link development, etc, but in essence they are in fact stand-alone articles. One argument I believe in, and have used it at this Afd, is that the answer to get rid of horrible cruft is to delete it, not make a separate article for it. Over the time with the Afds for airline destination articles we have only just been able to keep them, but with more people with more arguments such as the quoted above, these destination articles will have a grim future, so instead of creating yet another guideline which the community at large may have a problem with, we need to look at the current destination articles first, and what alternatives we have to them. Some suggestions:
Whilst this group sees these lists as essential (I think the lists are 50% essential for current destinations, and not essential at all for terminated destinations), the community at large increasingly doesn't, and I would hate to see people wasting their time on compiling and adding information which could very easily be deleted at Afd. And I will explain my 50% essential comment: the major reason we as a group use for the keep at Afd is that airlines are in the business of flying from Point A to Point B, and that our readers need to know this. The counter argument to this is that if people want to know where an airline flies to, they need only go to the airlines website and find this info themselves. A fair point I think, seeing as the vast majority of these lists are sourced only from the airline anyway. But how to treat airlines which don't have a website, like say ChukotAVIA? -- Russavia ( talk) 17:12, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
The peer review for Future of air transport in the United Kingdom is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! - Trevor MacInnis ( Contribs) 14:38, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Since it it clear that consensus was established and remains to not include tail numbers, flight numbers and code share destinations in article tables, I'm going to revert back in the changes to the project page. I understand that some editors strongly oppose this view. However the consensus is present supporting this. Likewise there is acceptance that there can be individual exceptions. One was clearly identified for the tail numbers at Frontier Airlines. I think most editors in this discussion understand that some editors will consider this to be an attack on their work. However it is clearly not an attack on any article. We are simply working to build a unified encyclopedia that consists of encyclopedic information. We owe it to all readers to have articles that follow some style sheet. That is part of what makes an encyclopedia a good encyclopedia. Vegaswikian 18:14, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
I have tried to implement the concensus which we reached on the matters of flight numbers and codeshare destinations (haven't touched registrations yet) on Singapore Airlines and Thai Airways International, and Huaiwei outright refuses to abide by the concensus reached in this project for the layout of airline articles, reverting any changes which are made. In order for this project to implement any concensus reached, I think it may now be necessary to request that Huaiwei be blocked from editing such articles until such time as he is willing to abide by concensus reached on such articles (he was previously blocked from editing Chinese related articles for some time, so this is not a new thing that he is doing here). To make this request, where does one go, because it is now getting beyond the totally ridiculous. I see no other way to resolve this, as previous mediation Huaiwei has shown he will not abide by consensus, and this is having a knock on effect on other articles, which Huaiwei also reverts in order to push his apparent ownership of the SIA article -- Russavia ( talk) 02:29, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
The neverending Huaiwei-vs-Russavia catfight is flaming on yet again in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Singapore Airlines Flight 380, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Emirates Airlines awards and accolades and now this very page, with allegations and mud-flinging going on both sides, and all articles affected suffering as a result. As I can't claim to be entirely neutral in this matter, I'm a little hesitant to bring this to RFC, but if there are others who are as tired of this bleep as I am and would be willing to support the RFC, please let me know. Jpatokal ( talk) 19:43, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm open to exploring alternatives to RfC, but I don't really see what viable options we have: for example, Huaiwei has previously rejected mediation for disputes, and the countless squabbles we're dealing with here aren't so much conflicts over article content as over the personalities involved.
But if both parties are now amenable to mediation and agree to voluntarily abide by its results — even if the mediator's proposed remedy is something fairly drastic like "Stop editing SQ-related articles for a year" — then that would be great. Huaiwei and Russavia, are you willing? Jpatokal ( talk) 02:25, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Can you not even restrain yourselves on a topic about this very type of speech? NcSchu( Talk) 17:28, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Is this RFC/U going to be going ahead or not? I would appreciate it if it could be instigated by other users, as it is now getting beyond a joke. I have bundled for Afd the following articles, Emirates Airlines awards and accolade, Malaysia Airlines awards, Singapore Airlines awards and accolades, and I have now officially had an absolute gutful of dealing with Huaiwei, and his total incivility as shown in this Afd; refer his bolding of disruptively trying to enforce an individual view, then rambling on about a guilty conscience because I take issue with his doing this. Additionally, Alice [9], RomanceOfTravel [10] and Huaiwei [11] have subverted this Afd process by removing the Afd template from the Singapore Airlines award article, and Huaiwei has interfered with the Afd process by removing the Singapore Airlines award article from the Afd whilst it is still in discussion [12]. Added to the continual refusal of these users to abide by concensus on the Singapore Airlines with the reverting of the removal of flight number lists, and codeshare information condensing as per our project guidelines, one can begin to see how one can become so damn frustrated in having to deal with this on a continual basis. So please, let's get this RFC/U going, so that this project can get back on track and get on with business. -- Russavia ( talk) 18:47, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
I just completed some work on SkyEurope but the additional information and sourcing appears to have broken the layout with respect to the photos. Can someone lend a hand with that? I know the article needs more information, but I found overall sources to be somewhat lacking apart from some PR cruft. I plan to look more into sources when I have the time. Thanks! Travellingcari ( talk) 02:50, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm at it again. I added a little bit of information on the IPO since it was historic and the growth and change of 2007. I moved some of that from "destinations" since it was placed there when it was announced and now that it's passed it became "history". In addition, I don't see the closure of a hub as much of a destination, so history seemed to be the logical place in the article to look for it. I also took out some information I couldn't source (ee info -- likely to change anyway). Travellingcari ( talk) 19:06, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
ETA: and I have no idea whether airfleets qualifies as a reliable source, but it had been in the article and I saw no reason to remove it. Travellingcari ( talk) 19:42, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to break up the way too long List of airlines page. I think List of airports has the right idea, and I've already incorporated some into the intro ( Airline codes). Comments? Should the be a separate page for each country? Or for each continent? - Trevor MacInnis ( Contribs) 21:05, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Should we have articles on codeshare destination like Flybe franchise and codeshare destinations ? MilborneOne ( talk) 21:57, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
User:63.215.26.148 (along with similar IP address presumably being used by the same user) is at it again with improperly implemented, badly formatted navboxes of questionable usefulness. This one is titled "Regional and Mainline Airline Holding Companies of the United States". While it sounds good in concept, I think it needs work:
-- Hawaiian717 ( talk) 18:58, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
I give up, for now. The concept is basically sound, though I'm not certain it's strictly necessary to have along with the category. I'll convert it to a template tonight, and it can be refined from there, or taken to WP:TfD if so desired. -- Hawaiian717 ( talk) 19:00, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Think that AeroLogic (see Lufthansa Cargo) should be created as a new airline article now that it has officially been founded. Bthebest ( talk) 19:57, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't know. A google news search doesn't seem to have much information beyond what's already sufficiently covered. I'd suggest holding off until more info is announced and creating an article rather than a simple stub. Travellingcari ( talk) 19:20, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
What is the current feeling about flags in the destinations lists for airline articles. I noticed that stand alone destination articles like Air Canada destinations have flags, but when the destinations are part of the article like Zoom Airlines they are not included. Of course there are exceptions like Skyservice destinations and Montenegro Airlines. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 16:42, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
User:RobNS is adding flags to all the destinations on Canadian airlines, I have reverted Zoom but he has done a few more!! MilborneOne ( talk) 12:22, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Your argument makes no sense when you can just as easily say the opposite: "not all destination pages have flags so why should any of them?". If other people have a problem with it they can speak up here as well, but the project consensus seems to be that we don't feel they add anything to the pages. You could help remove them, you know. NcSchu( Talk) 20:59, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
I find it funny how some folks can actually remove the flags with the comment "Removed flags as per long standing consensus on WP:AIRLINE" [15] [16]. What "long standing consensus" can there be, when the so-called concensus has only materialised a few hours ago?-- Huaiwei ( talk) 15:13, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
OK people, let's have a vote on weather their should be flagicons on the airline destination pages. As a professional art director and magazine publisher, I think it adds to the lists, both in accuracy and aesthetics. DK Publishing from the UK has taught us that encyclopedias need not be dull, or simply lists. The flagicons are appearing all over the Wiki, and they seem to be more and more accepted as a colourful and informative graphic item, that quickly downloads too. I would agree on one stipulation though, and that is that they should be for COUNTRIES only, and not states or provinces (what is next, city flags? ;-)).
YES. Canada - Anyhow, my vote is, of course to keep them. I also want to join this group, as it seems to be a fun place. ;-). See count my vote as a YES. -- Rob NS 21:10, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
NO - for the need of a vote and for a need for the flags per all the reasons already listed the other section. NcSchu( Talk) 21:18, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
NO for flags for reasons I stated above. YES to getting these destination lists referenced with third-party, reliable, verifiable sources so that they can survive an Afd based upon policy. Then let's consider flags. -- Russavia ( talk) 21:20, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
NO per arguments previously made on this talk page and those made during previous discussions on this topic. SempreVolando ( talk) 21:32, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
NO per previous arguments and discussions against. MilborneOne ( talk) 21:47, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
NO per previous discussions. Just because they're spreading all over Wikipedia (not just this project) doesn't mean they're a good idea. They may look neat but all the color can add to visual clutter and onscreen web resolution is really too low to see much detail. I'd also support redesigning the destination lists using a table similar to what's on Aeroflot, but that's another topic for discussion. -- Hawaiian717 ( talk) 22:01, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
No to flags in destination lists in the traditional format (they are just plain ugly), but Yes in table formats (looks much more presentable this way).-- Huaiwei ( talk) 13:19, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
I've checked trough the archive, and haven't been able to find anything on how lists of airlines should be formated, so I'd like to start a discussion on this. List of airlines is being divided up into smaller, more manageable, lists and a number of varieties has appeared.
There may be more.... Are all these columns necessary? Should that all be used in every list? My personal choice is AIRLINE, IATA, ICAO, CALLSIGN, plus AIRLINE (in [native language]) in the AIRLINE column and the divisions by type (Flag carrier, Air taxi, Charter, Cargo, Other). - Trevor MacInnis ( Contribs) 05:16, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
I've created Template:Airlines list boilerplate, which can be subst'd to quickly start new airline list pages, and keep them uniform. - Trevor MacInnis ( Contribs) 01:47, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
While my command of the English language is not exemplary, may I just point out that linguistic concerns seems to have taken the back seat in the rush to create multiple lists. The cookie-cutter mass-produced lists all seem to follow the introduction of existing articles like List of airlines of Singapore, which goes "This is a list of airlines currently operating in Singapore". Erm, pardon me, but I think the number of airlines currently operating in Singapore would number over 80, and not just 7?-- Huaiwei ( talk) 16:21, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Since the opinion here is to remove the beastly little flags, I will start working on a list of airlines that people here can go to, to remove flagicons. As a trained professional in visual communications and corporate identity, I can't in good conscience do this myself. However I do believe we should be consistent, and I know it means a lot to the members here, so here you will find a list of airline destinations with those evil little flags to be removed (it's a work in progress, so please be patient). We'll try and start with the 'A's first. Once you have 'fixed' the pages, please remove them from this list. Cheers! -- Rob NS 23:12, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Just finished a pass through Category:Airline destinations using WP:AWB and I think I took care of the rest. I did leave the flags in some of the table-based lists, such as Jetstar Asia Airways destinations, since as Huaiwei pointed out above, they do work better with the flags. -- Hawaiian717 ( talk) 03:45, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Does LeisureJet airline exist? It was planned in 2004, but a quick google search comes up with nothing. Same with RMA Gold Airways.- Trevor MacInnis ( Contribs) 06:44, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Just an FYI, Transatlantic International Airlines is up for deletion. I have no dog in this race, although I voted delete on account of non-existent sources, but thought some of you might want the heads up in the event there is any information and/or salvageable content. Travellingcari ( talk) 19:32, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Newish article looks like a hoax or virtual airline anybody have any info. MilborneOne ( talk) 19:03, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I searched but didn't find evidence of consensus. I may have missed it. I'm currently working on Independence Air to clean it up and fix the citation issues. My question is whether we need the destinations for a now-defunct airline and if we do, should they be on a separate page as appears to be consensus for running airlines.
Go Fly doesn't have destinations (it didn't when I began work on it and I never added them in), nor do Ansett Australia or Allegheny Airlines. However, Command Airways and Empire Airlines (1976-1985) do. By no means is this an exhaustive sample, it's the first couple I saw in each. Thoughts?
Travellingcari ( talk) 18:34, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
ETA I blew up the article, I can add the destinations back to their own page if they need to be somewhere. Travellingcari ( talk) 20:53, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
In airline destination lists Hawaii is listed in North America, but per the Hawaii article the state of Hawaii is in Oceania not North America. Shouldn't we list Hawaii in Oceania? pikdig ( talk) 05:55, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Guys come on. Hawaii is a STATE. Puerto Rico and Guam are not a part of the 50 United STATES so they're not listed under "United States." Additionally, note 19 on the Oceania page is as follows [referring to Polynesia]: "Excludes the US state of Hawaii, which is distant from the North American landmass in the Pacific Ocean, and Easter Island, a territory of Chile in South America." Sox 23 20:08, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't know if
this is indicitive of what the project wants on it's pages, that up to y'all. I don't see the ICAOIATA codes as being necessary, but this guy has a bias agaisnt Delta behind his additions, as his summary makes obvious. I'm not warring with him over it, as I really don't know what the norm is here. Thanks from a
WP:AIR guy. -
BillCJ (
talk) 00:33, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
THanks. I had a look at his latest IP's talk page, and I see what you mean. Glad to know my gut instinct was right about somthing being wrong with this. - BillCJ ( talk) 00:58, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Just stumbled across this: USALatin Sky. A once sentence article on what appears to be a travel agency or something. I think fails WP:CSD#A7 currently, but I figured I'd let the project members take a look before tagging it. Maybe merge and redirect into ATA Airlines? -- Hawaiian717 ( talk) 06:05, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
We have an editor adding airlines to the transportation category for many of the cities where the airline operates. The same editor also was doing this for the economy categories. While the airports themselves probably belong in the transportation category, I don't see how individual airlines would belong even if the have a hub in a location. See US Airways for an example. I think all of these should be removed from the airline categories. Any reasons that these adds make sense? Vegaswikian ( talk) 22:06, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
There are now separate articles for Hainan Airlines (IATA:HN), Grand China Air (no code?) and Grand China Airlines (IATA:GS). As far as I can work this out, GS ("Grand China Express Air") is a feeder carrier for Hainan, which in turn is a part of a new merged company called Grand China Air, which isn't actually flying anywhere under its own name yet and their website just redirects to Hainan for time being. Did I get this right, and how to best represent it? Jpatokal ( talk) 06:39, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Looks like this article needs protection. Every few hours, someone changes "is" to "was" when this airline is still supposedly operating as a cargo carrier. HkCaGu ( talk) 08:12, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Anyone bored? This was apparently created by a merge and it's basically a dump of one source. There appear to be a number of available sources, but I don't honestly know where to start. TRAVELLINGCARI My story Tell me yours 17:52, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
{{ Aviation lists}} appears in many airline articles. It is an aviation navigation box and does not aid in navigation within airline articles. Many countries are creating country specific navigation boxes. I think that we should remove this extra navbox when editing articles and insert an airline specific one if available. Vegaswikian ( talk) 20:51, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
I'd be interested in hearing the opinions of other editors about the assertion in the article US Airways that it is a low-cost airline. It seems to me that the sources linked to do not really support this assertion; the airline's business model and cost structure are very different from those of easyJet or Southwest (as at least one of the sources actually indicates). ProhibitOnions (T) 22:05, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
<deindent for clarity>I agree there should be discussion of the issue in the article, but it belongs in the lede - unless we're going to remove it from the lede of all other LCCs. There are more than enough sources - again, government, media, academic - to support the fact that US Airways (being the descendant of America West) is an LCC. There is some debate about how far toward LCC they have gone - but they are an LCC. I have split the "airline" link off the "low-cost airline" pipe, so that the (valid) issue of pure "airline" not being linked in the first line, is solved. I'm going to do that with the rest of the LCC airline articles as well.
The reason for being moved into the LCC category only now despite the fact that the US Airways merger took place in 2005, is that the operating certificates were not merged until 2007. There's no "rapid transformation" into an LCC - to suggest that that is the case, is misleading at best. If you look at the history, US Airways has been moving (in fits and starts) toward a stripped-down, low-operating-cost carrier since its 2002 trip to bankruptcy court. (After BK 1, they shed lots of planes, rationalized the fleet structure, etc.) That was only reinforced by its second trip to bankruptcy court in 2004. The fact that it was then bought by a low-cost carrier, merged into that low-cost carrier (AWA is the surviving corporate structure, which was then renamed US Airways) and the process of LCC-ization intensified, is one of the stranger sets of occurrences in airline history. (Then again, US Airways is pretty much the poster child for strange stuff in the industry.)
All of this should be mentioned in the article; it will make an interesting segment.
Looking over that Unisys document, I'm really not sure where it came from, but it's not a particularly helpful source because it's from 2003. It seems to be talking about US Airways right after emergence from the first bankruptcy - which doesn't really help tell us anything about today's operations. FCYTravis ( talk) 16:50, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
I have just removed (twice) three incidents on the Pinnacle Airlines that are not notable, an IP user has reverted each time. Any help or opinions welcome. MilborneOne ( talk) 18:57, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Can anyone figure out why articles with this template now have a ton of white space at the beginning of the article? Vegaswikian ( talk) 08:01, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't see anything on either this wikiproject page nor WP:AIRPORTS about destinations that are pending government approval. Do we have any thoughts on whether it is appropriate to list them on airline and airport destination lists? What is bringing this up is the inclusion of Philippine Airlines proposed service to San Diego International Airport. -- Hawaiian717 ( talk) 15:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
In many airline articles, there is a section about service changes. While it might be OK to list changes that add a new destination or drop an existing one, I think that listing frequency changes is not encyclopedic. The agreement that I think exists, is that listing the locations served is encyclopedic. No one has ever made the case the frequency of service is encyclopedic. I think we should drop all mention of changes in the frequency of service. Vegaswikian ( talk) 19:47, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
I continue to believe that a logical case-by-case approach is far better than an outright blanket ban, in this case on any mention of frequency changes. There are some changes in schedules which can be much more significant on their own, whether it represented a major change, or involved a key market for the airline or the industry. I would also think it is alright for airline articles to basically list schedule changes, including new or suspended routes relevant in the latest available FY or timetable, or to only highlight important ones if there are too many changes in that period. Taken as a whole, analysing all changes for a fiscal year (or usually half a fiscal year as per each summer/winter schedule published) can tell alot on the airline's growth for the next six or 12 months, and the airline's short-term growth strategy, which can certainly be of encyclopedic value. Compare this to the vague unsourced statements currently pepppered all over airline articles saying "the airline is growing fast" without really saying how, where, and how much in a clear, concise, quantifiable and verifiable manner.-- Huaiwei ( talk) 04:28, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
-- We, as a project, need to remember that an encyclopaedia is supposed to remain somewhat static with only major, notable events being added over time; by all rights, information that is added now should still be in the article in 1, 2, 5, 10, 50 years time. This section in the Singapore article was removed by myself as it only includes frequency changes. Changes in frequency and new routes should not be included as WP is not an online timetable and not an extension of the airline PR department. The only things which our articles should be listing is new destinations, and even then this project needs to remember that half of the community at large does not agree with even destinations being added (refer to past Afd discussions), and the more that this line is blurred, the more I see myself agreeing with that other half. It is my opinion that new routes (as opposed to new destinations) and terminated routes (as opposed to terminated destinations) should not be included. Sox above mentions 'New and dropped service can point to the direction the airline is flying to', I disagree with this for the most part, as the articles should state via prose what markets the airline is serving, and the best place to put prose is in the article proper, and most definitely in the 'Destinations' section; placing it in the destinations section adds some credence to the current concensus of the project that destinations are needed as an integral indicator of the airline's operations. Looking at the recent changes, one done by myself, and the rest done in my name without my knowledge (and by the way, no I am not WP:AIRLINES), this is what I think should and shouldn't stay/go:
I think it might be beneficial for project members to collaborate on a stub or start article, one which is not so much developed, and thereby no long term standards, and work with it, and perhaps look at the project guidelines and tweaking them where necessary. What say you all? -- Россавиа Диалог 16:23, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
On the Southwest Airlines article, these new routes are showing WN's recent focus on building up operations at DEN. (When "discontinued routes" was included on the article, it was showing WN's focus on eliminating trans-con routes [LAX-PHL, OAK-PHL, etc..] I don't see why that shouldn't be included. Factual, visual information like (these weren't frequency changes either; they are/were new/eliminated routes) that is more effective than simply having writing: "Southwest is putting a focus on building operations in Denver." This gives the reader the knowledge and then the specific examples of how the airline is going about doing this. I completely agree that routes with frequency changes should not be included, but new/discontinued routes I think should stay. (By the way- I didn't mean to say that you were WP:AIRLINES, just that when Huaiwei was deleting these sections saying "per Russavia" that there was no discussion at WP:Airports.) Did not mean to blame you. Sox 23 20:49, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I wonder from where did Russavia get the faintest idea that this encyclopedia is supposed to be "somewhat static with only major, notable events being added over time". This goes against the very core idea that Wikipedia is a community project open for anyone to edit, and not one where edits are discouraged just because they add to the editing statistics. The notability of any article changes over time, and so does its contents. There is no reasonable guarantee that one can add content now and be reasonably sure that it will remain relevant 50 years or even 5 years later, because the summary style of our articles will inevitably render the least notable element removed to maintain a reasonable article length. Unless Russavia is an aviation guru able to predict the course that the aviation industry will take over the next 50 or even 5 years, I find it a wishful thinking to consider minimal editing as an "editing standard" that this WP should be adopting.
As I have already explained at length above, I do not call for absolute inclusion of all frequency changes, and if they should be included, be done so with reasonable length for the primary purpose of knowledge and research. Russavia regularly fails to directly explain why such inclusion would be non-notable or unencyclopedic, relegating everything as "listcruft" (or in this case, an "online timetable") or an "extension of the airline PR department". A list of recent changes in an airline's schedules can hardly function as an "online timetable" in any sense of the word, nor can it promote an airline in any direct, feasible way, certainly not any more than the existance of the article itself.
Wikipedia articles has always been writtern for anyone, be it casual readers to industry professionals. Jimmy Wales himself says that Wikipedia is "an effort to create and distribute a multilingual free encyclopedia of the highest quality to every single person on the planet in his or her own language" [17], so who are we to question that vision? Wikipedia editors, when evaluating notability of any given subject, should not have a misconceived idea that these articles only target a specific segment of the global population by censoring supposedly "useless" and "technical" information, as what some are clearly doing (and which I have constantly opposed much to their chagrin). Fear of confusion caused to the uninformed should be turned into a motivation to research, write and expand our articles, not as an excuse to self-censor and negate the opportunity to educate them through our work under the veil of "consistency".
And I hope Russavia can provide better excuses than another "anti-PR exercise" when targeting Singapore Airlines related articles next time. If that exercise is indeed such a core concern to him, at least be reasonably consistent about it. ;)-- Huaiwei ( talk) 21:14, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I am going to put US Airways livery up at Afd. Is there any reason this article exists, apart from that it was split out of US Airways due to essentially being a gallery and taking up too much room in the main article? Even though it may be a 'sub article' it is stil in the mainspace, and it is lacking references from reliable sources (airliners.net is NOT a reliable source for anything) which discuss US Airways livery in any detail. The one sentence from an Afd discussion which always sits on my mind is 'The solution to getting rid of cruft is to delete it, not create a separate article for it'. If one must use photos on US Airways, the solution is:
Wikipedia is not a list of various links to airliners.net nor a fansite. Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia. I fail to see why any airline article would need to have all of these sub-pages ( fleets, airport lounges, flight numbers, flight attendant relevant to one airline only (who cares what shade of lipstick they can wear, lets get real people), non notable subsidiaries, frequent flyer programs (Aeroplan excepted due to it being listed on a stock exchange), articles relating to cabins for one airline, etc, etc) when Pan Am, El Al and Biman Bangladesh Airlines don't. Those are the featured articles relating to WP:AIRLINES, if that means anything. -- Россавиа Диалог 19:20, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
User:Tobibln is adding flags to all the airline infoboxes (in the Headquarters field), I have reverted a few but just thought I would check what the project position was. Thanks MilborneOne ( talk) 22:05, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
I was just wondering. If a few members in this wikiProject find themselves constantly reverting a feature added by other users, dosent this not reflect something about true concensus on the ground?-- Huaiwei ( talk) 15:36, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
I notice that Frequent Flier Programs are included with the respective Airline article. Are there any exceptions? -- Novelty ( talk) 09:53, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
In early April, I removed a large section of 'accidents and incidents' on the Northwest Airlines article. By following the guidelines of this project, it was my opinion that those incidents were not notable. The removal of these incidents was disputed by User:Golich17, as seen in this diff, which was in turn reverted by MilborneOne (he appeared to be in agreeance with the removal which I performed). Northwest Airlines is not the only airline I have done this with, I have done it with, from memory, Qantas, Aeroflot, Singapore Airlines, and a whole host of other articles. I think it is time that this guideline be discussed so that the entire project can read off the same page, so that we all know what is and isn't appropriate for an encyclopaedia article. Seeing as we have a diff available for the Northwest Airlines article, I will explain why these incidents were removed, and it will apply as to why I have removed other incidents on other articles without prejudice. I hope that project members can discuss this, and perhaps tweak that guideline accordingly. I will place the guidelines which are on WP:AIRLINES here, so that one needn't go from page to page. The guidelines are:
- Incidents and accidents
- Accidents or incidents should only be included if:
- The event was fatal to either aircraft occupants or persons on the ground;
- The event involved hull loss or serious damage to the aircraft or airport;
- The event resulted in changes to procedures, regulations or processes affecting airports, airlines or the aircraft industry.
And here are my reasons for the removal of those and other incidents:
These is my opinion on why I removed these incidents. And for further opinions, I will say this. I am in no pointing the finger at any fellow wikipedian with what I say, rather I am squarely pointing the finger at the media. The media these days is evermore sensationalistic, and we as participants in building an encyclopaedia need to cut through the media bullshit and present articles which are concise, well laid out, and more important, informational and relevant to what a reader who is vanilla on any given article subject would need to know in order to have a well-informed, (hopefully more than basic) understanding of that subject. Inclusion of what I (and others, I will let those people speak for themselves though) believe to be irrelevant incidents in the overall picture of any given airline is not helping that vanilla reader to gain an above basic understanding of our airlines. And this is where we need to stop playing 'media'; by this I mean, it appears to me these days a passenger on a flight farts, the passenger sitting next to them doesn't like the smell, they go to a news outlet to complain, and the so-called news outlet runs with the story, making it the most sensational story one has ever seen. And when all is said and done, this incident is added to the wikipedia article for that airline. It is my opinion that if an incident can not be mentioned in an airline article with a link to an article on that incident, it shouldn't be included. If it isn't notable to hold up on its own as an incident, then it likely is not all that significant. Of course, this doesn't preclude obviously notable incidents which fulfill the guidelines from being mentioned, but where an editor has not yet created an article for that incident. I would even so far as to say that the guidelines should be expanded to include other factors. The guidelines in my opinion would be along the lines of:
- Incidents and accidents
- Accidents or incidents should only be included if:
- The event was fatal to either aircraft occupants or persons on the ground;
- The event involved hull loss or serious damage to the aircraft or airport;
- The event resulted in changes to procedures, regulations or processes affecting airports, airlines or the aircraft industry.
- The event resulted in the loss of the AOC of the airline and/or the airline going out of business/being completely grounded (obviously an incident which fulfills that is notable in the history of the airline)
- The event whilst not fulfilling the above criteria was so controversial as to change perception of that airline, or had other major ramifications, or was historically unique in another aspect. The wording is not quite right, it does need to be tweaked - but the perfect example of what I mean by this is Qantas Flight 1 - there were no fatalities, hull loss did not occur, and industry procedures didn't change dramatically afterwards - however, it was notable considering the expense that Qantas went to in order to preserve their no hull loss record in the jet era, whilst at the same time the accident was held up as the perfect case of what can happen when airlines contract out maintenance to foreign entities [not to mention the bad press received in regards to having the Chinese repair the aircraft] - they are not necessarily my own opinions on that accident, although what I have written was widely written about in direct relation to that accident - that is the general gist of this inclusion factor. By historically unique in another aspect, I guess the perfect example is JetBlue Airways Flight 292 (although I will say it is my opinion that this article as it stands wouldn't fulfill this, due to the DirecTV aspect that is what is historical significant hardly rating a mention; of course that aspect is what make this incident in the least bit significant.
So that is my reasoning on why incidents have and will be removed, and my opinions as to how I think these particular guidelines should be worked upon; nothing I have done has been done maliciously, but rather in good faith and because of the way I have interpreted policies and guidelines has lead me to act in good faith in removal and/or addition of information in individual articles, or on wikipedia as a whole. I am hoping we as a project can discuss this particular guideline, tweak it as needed (if concensus as a project on a whole warrants it), and start implementing any concensus without prejudice across the board, with changes on individual articles outside of guidelines to take place not only on the article talk page, but on this talk page also, as it is better to discuss at a project level as it gets the project involved (I am taking a good stab here, but I don't think most project members know what is happening from one article to another), whilst at the same time changes outside of the guidelines could actually be a good thing that the entire project could benefit from - well that's my opinion anyway. I will turn it over to others for their input, and hopefully critique - as opposed to criticism - on what I have written above. Россавиа Диалог 19:38, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
The ELFAA keeps being added to airline articles in the infobox as an Alliance and a navbox - the navbox has been added as a copy and paste (adding the airlines all the categories the navbox has!) - the ELFAA is just a trade association and should not be in the infobox but just getting a sanity check from other project members. Thanks MilborneOne ( talk) 14:41, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
I know that the airline ceased operations on April 27, 2008. Are they still doing charter flights or did they ceased only scheduled passenger service and retained only charter? Cause Eos Airlines has been added to Punta Cana International Airport as a charter airline there. I reverted it saying "airline went bankrupt" and an IP reverted it saying "still doing charter flights". I just wante to know if this is correct or not? 74.183.173.237 ( talk) 16:19, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Hi! Just thought I'd bring your attention to this sub-page we've set up at Wikipedia:Templates with red links. Cheers! bd2412 T 08:14, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
I know this will come as no surprise, but I removed some flag icons from Singapore Airlines and was reverted as expected. I personally think that the section these were in, Recent changes, smacks of wikinews and really should be seriously considered for removal since it most deals with the no encyclopedic changes of flight frequencies. Is there any support besides the reverter to use flag icons in this case or even to keep this section?
I will also note that the reversion of my changes also removed the ownership information from the infobox without any mention in the edit comments. Given the history for the ownership information, I suppose we may need to discuss that as well. Vegaswikian ( talk) 22:56, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
We have discussed flags before and we did have a consensus to not use flags in destination lists, the general feeling was not to add flags to the infobox but we did not come to a conclusion. And now we have another example of flag use. Perhaps somebody can suggest a guideline for when flags should be or should not be used, agree or vote on it and then have a clear guideline to refer to. MilborneOne ( talk) 12:26, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
<sarcasm> Yep, flags will definitely get the articles to FA status for sure! </sarcasm> NcSchu( Talk) 14:26, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Geez, just saying EZ1234 ( talk) 10:50, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
An editor added state flags (for the state the airline is headquartered in) to {{ Navbox Airlines of the United States}}. It was pretty ugly [18] and rather pointless. I've reverted the change. -- Hawaiian717 ( talk) 15:34, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
What should be done about these? The VS and VX pages are just registration pages (an AfD have been placed on them, though, and the general consensus leans towards deletion). However, the AA and SQ pages go into historic fleet detail; I'm not sure if it's noteworthy enough to be kept. I think a consensus needs to be made in regards to historic fleet data, as it's not consistent; some airlines have that information, others don't, and I personally don't see how it's relevant. I've merged the EK fleet page, though, because, in all honesty, there wasn't anything in that page that the main EK page's Fleet section was missing. Butterfly0fdoom ( talk) 05:32, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Virgin America fleet Cari
Me
Speak! 00:39, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Virgin Atlantic Airways Fleet
Butterfly0fdoom (
talk) 02:10, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Singapore Airlines fleet (3nd nomination) Butterfly0fdoom ( talk) 02:22, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
I think that there has been a mistake for listing Beijing Capital International Airport and Suvarnabhumi Airport as focus cities for PIA. I have removed them from the list of focus cities in the infobox since they only fly to 1 non-hub destinations (NRT is listed as a destination for PIA on the PEK page and HKG is listed on the BKK page) and to their hubs. Dubai would be a reasonable PIA focus city but Beijing and Bangkok??? I don't think so. Any comments. 125.34.65.92 ( talk) 08:52, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
See the discussion here. Vegaswikian ( talk) 06:04, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Hello, everyone. The article on Aero Mongolia says that it is now defunct due to a flight restriction. But it did get its license back, because one of my friends went to the country by Aero Mongolia not long ago. Can anyone find some sources though? -- Chinneeb my talk 11:53, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Can some others keep a watch on the Jetstar Asia Airways fleet section? We have an editor who wants to include the registration numbers. I have removed this twice so far. Not having the registration numbers in this article seems to be supported by the consensus discussions here. Vegaswikian ( talk) 23:47, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Inetpup ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) recently created, among others, Independence Air decline and road to bankruptcy, which appears quite redundant to Independence Air#Decline except for the format. Is there general consensus that we need these break-out sections. I don't think Independence Air is so big that the decline information can't be in the main article, although I think the destinations should definitely stay out. Thoughts? I'll be notifying Inetpup of the discussion in a moment. TravellingCari the Busy Bee 13:18, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Sorry to bring this up again but the last attempt to discuss this did not come to a conclusion. A number of editors have started to add flags to the Headquarters field of the airline infobox. Not a great fan of flags as I have said before but does the project have a recommendation either way. Only concern is that some articles have flags and some dont, so that if we use flags in just this context then all of them need to have flags, or if we dont like flags at all then recommend that they be removed. Any comments? MilborneOne ( talk) 20:31, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
As we have had no further comments consensus is that it is recommended that flags are not used in the infobox in accordance with WP:FLAG. MilborneOne ( talk)
As the informal mediation in relation to the various issues regarding the Singapore Airlines article was not successful, I have now instigated a request for formal mediation on these issues at MedCom at this link. The previous request for mediation was not succesful as not all parties would participate, however, I am trying again with this request. I have added a number of 'involved parties', however, if you believe you are involved in the disputes raised in the request, please add yourself to the 'involved parties' list and add yourself to the 'Parties' agreement to mediate' section. Perhaps we can now have these issues resolved in a timely manner. -- Россавиа Диалог 21:18, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
The following has been agreed by the Airport project -
Accidents or incidents should only be included if:
Can we agree something similar for the Airlines project ? with perhaps just the last line changed to remove other airports. MilborneOne ( talk) 20:20, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Any possibility of coming up with a template for the "Summary" table on each of accident pages? I've visited several and while (most) of the data is the same, the order and presentation is different. Some tables included derived data, others duplicative data. I've never proposed a template before, so I'm not sure where to do this. Heck, I don't even know if this is the right page. ( NetJohn ( talk) 23:49, 5 June 2008 (UTC))
Over at Qantas and List of largest airlines in Oceania there seems to be disagreement as to what figures should be used for the fleet of Qantas. The source which I have referenced is published by the Civil Aviation Safety Authority and is the official government record of the civil aircraft register. The source which User:Sparrowman980 uses to reference these figures is Qantas public relations in which they include subsidiary airlines. I have a problem with the use of PR sources at the best of times, and this is one of those times in which the failings of using PR sources are ever evident. First and foremost because we have a source from the ultimate authority of civil aviation in Australia with up-to-date and the most accurate records possible; if only because the accuracy of these records are mandated in Federal law. Secondly, the Qantas PR is just that, PR. They could claim they are Jesus Christ in the name of PR, it doesn't mean that Jesus Christ needs to be redirected to Qantas; in effect, what I am saying, is that they can make all sorts of claims in their PR, it doesn't mean that they necessarily hold true, or verifiable, which in this case, it isn't. The verifiability of their PR claims are easy to debunk due to the existence of the CASA aircraft register. When searching for Qantas Airways Limited as the operator, we receive 135 results (the link I provided above). Searching for QantasLink, returns 0 results; this is because QantasLink is not an airline, but a brand used to group together the operations of Eastern Australia Airlines, Sunstate Airlines and some operations of National Jet Systems. These subsidiary airlines should not be included in Qantas figures as the CASA aircraft register clearly shows that these aircraft are not operated by Qantas Airways Limited. Jetstar Airways should not be included in any Qantas figures as its flights are operated under its own name, its own air operator's certificate, it's own codes, it's own callsign; the mere fact that it is a subsidiary of Qantas should not be used to inflate figures of Qantas. This issue was discussed very briefly six+ months ago at Talk:Qantas/archive1#Fleet_size, and Sparrowman980 has used User:Fnlayson's why not comments as apparent concensus to use the inflated figures. Can we please get other opinions on this, as it is clearly my understanding that previous concensus on such issues is that subsidiaries and other entities should not be included in such figures. -- Россавиа Диалог 04:54, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
I would also like to bring to your attention to best example is here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_airlines_in_Asia they give a clear picture of what is going on. Sparrowman980 ( talk) 17:01, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
...is the Wikipedia:WikiProject India collaboration of the week. Let's lend them a hand in getting this to FA! - Trevor MacInnis ( Contribs) 12:12, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I have made a new feed for the New Article bot. The bot reads all the new articles for a day and puts suspected Airlines-related articles into User:AlexNewArtBot/AirlinesSearchResult, the articles are suppose to be manually put into the portal page and/or removed if irrelevant. Or whatever you want to do with them.
The list of rules are in User:AlexNewArtBot/Airlines, there is also the log on the User:AlexNewArtBot/AirlinesLog explaining the rules that sent an article to the search results (the log is cleared every day, so try to look into the history of the log). Please contact me if you are interested in the fine tuning of the rules
That is all. Any suggestions are welcome. - Trevor MacInnis ( Contribs) 03:09, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
Over at TAROM I have made a note of its logo (adopted in 1954, author unknown) as resembling that of LOT Polish Airlines created in 1929 by Tadeusz Gronowski and winning a competition held for this purpose by the airline. Gronowski is a famous poster artist, Grand Prix winner at World Expos and a historically important designer, but I was unable to find any information about the TAROM's logo's creators, even after writing to TAROM about it.
I mean the logo symbol proper, as used on aircraft tails, not the complete graphic symbol with text that is updated regularly. However, this information is being removed. I am not aware of any other logo that so closely parallels LOT's and observes the same graphical convention of a stylized bird in flight seen from below, circumscribed. Gronowski's bird is a crane, while TAROM's is a swallow, but the graphic design is the same, down to weight of lines and variation in angle of wings, with the lower being shorter (for the seen from below effect). Is mentioning this resemblance not ency? -- Mareklug talk 14:46, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
I am wondering whether destinations served by an airline, but operated by another should be included on the destinations article. For example Air Canada Jazz has many of its routes operated by Air Georgian, so should these particular routes be included on Air Canada Jazz destinations? Thankyoubaby ( talk) 23:08, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
The FAC for American Airlines Flight 11 is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks!
As you may have heard, we at the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial Team recently made some changes to the assessment scale, including the addition of a new level. The new description is available at WP:ASSESS.
Each WikiProject should already have a new C-Class category at Category:C-Class_articles. If your project elects not to use the new level, you can simply delete your WikiProject's C-Class category and clarify any amendments on your project's assessment/discussion pages. The bot is already finding and listing C-Class articles.
Please leave a message with us if you have any queries regarding the introduction of the revised scheme. This scheme should allow the team to start producing offline selections for your project and the wider community within the next year. Thanks for using the Wikipedia 1.0 scheme! For the 1.0 Editorial Team, §hepBot ( Disable) 22:25, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
In the airline's infobox, should the hubs be listed alphabetically or by size. American Airlines has its hubs listed alphabetically and airlines like DL, NW, UA, and CO have their hubs listed by size. 74.183.173.237 ( talk) 21:23, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
I am bothered by the use of ratings of airlines in various articles. These are usually derived from an outside source so they are readily available from elsewhere. Once included in an article, they tend to remain and may or may not be updated. Also there are so many sources for the ratings. Some that are published regularly that use objective criteria, and others that are are published infrequently or on a random basis, say Consumers Reports.
I think including the sources in the airline article would better serve everyone and then point to that if someone wants to look these up. Then I would like to remove all of what really is wikinews comments about what an airlines ratting was this month from the individual airline articles. Not sure how to deal with an airline like SQ where their recent history of top ratings is significant. Vegaswikian ( talk) 22:19, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
Just a heads up that Naming of Qantas aircraft has been taken to AfD by myself, and the discussion is at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Naming_of_Qantas_aircraft. -- Россавиа Диалог 02:02, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Please be aware the Airline and Airport projects are currently experiencing higher than normal levels of Vandalism either in the Hub/Focus boxes and/or with the schedule changes currently taking place. People are taking advantage of a bigger than normal change in the industry to slip misguiding or inaccurate information into these articles. A discussion has been started on the AMR talk page if you'd wish to participate in that as well. -WikipediaFlyer —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.162.189.243 ( talk) 03:03, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
FYI, 74.183.173.237 is an experienced, formerly registered editor. He is not vandalizing. Please WP:AGF. HkCaGu ( talk) 03:10, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Okay, enough with this. By looking at edits for the airlines' hub/focus city lists, everyone are in favor of having American Airlines list their hubs/focus cities alphabetically and all the other airlines having their hubs/focus cities listed by size. By looking at all the airlines' infobox, is this correct? 74.183.173.237 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 06:23, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
Why is this not considered a notable incident? It's had major worldwide press coverage (front page, BBC and CNN) while BBC News reports that it's a "major incident"; furthermore, a 2.5 x 3m hole caused by explosive decompression in flight appears as noteworthy as the last Quantas incident that's currently listed under the Quantas article (runway overrun). Thanks Socrates2008 ( Talk) 10:58, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 8 |
New article has been created Criticism of Ryanair - must get an award for not being NPOV and that is just the title! MilborneOne 19:00, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm just curious but how should we list the destinations of regional airlines, like NW Airlink for example? Should we list them in an article named Northwest Airlink destinations then separate it by the destinations served by the different regional carriers, or list them in the carrier operating for the airline? -chris^_^ 05:56, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Since certain users persist in arguing semantics and preventing any sort of consensus from being reached, I'm going to force us all to repeat our statements above in a a way that hopefully is completely unambiguous. Question Number 1: Should articles include tables listing flight numbers by destination? -- Hawaiian717 16:01, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Since certain users persist in arguing semantics and preventing any sort of consensus from being reached, I'm going to force us all to repeat our statements above in a a way that hopefully is completely unambiguous. Question Number 2: Should the fleet tables in articles include individual aircraft tail numbers? -- Hawaiian717 16:04, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Should the same apply to the flight number sections? How about the tail numbers for all of the aircraft? Vegaswikian 20:03, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
There is now a new page, Wikipedia:WikiProject Aviation/Maintenance, that lists backlogged areas needing work, articles not covered under the assessment, etc. It is automatically updated by a bot daily. If your looking for something to do, check it out. If there is anything that you would like to see covered, let me know. - Trevor MacInnis ( Contribs) 23:58, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Should the individual airline articles be including the fleet tables for EVERY SINGLE AIRLINE that is part of the parent company? I think those fleet tables should only be included in List of Airline Holding Companies. For example, I don't see why it's relevant to list the fleet of ATA Airlines in an article about North American Airlines just because they're a part of the same parent company (in this case, Global Aero Logistics. Without a doubt the tables should be included in the parent company articles, but I don't think they should be included in articles about another airline. Any comments? Sox 23 22:46, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
It has long rankled me that pages in Category:Airline_destinations which I visit commonly contain incorrect, outdated, and/or unsupported information. Is it the position of WikiProject Airlines that these articles are exempt from WP's verifiability policy?
Examples:
-- Boracay Bill 00:47, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Do you really need a reference after every single one? It's the same reference for each one and I feel like if we just put it after "Virgin America currently flies to 5 destinations throughout the United States" in the opening that would be fine. NcSchu( Talk) 23:41, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
WP should avoid including any information, airline destinations being a very good example, which is liable to rapid and unpredictable change and which is readily found elsewhere. Including such information reduces the value of WP as a source, because the unwary user may trust the information. The wary user will go to the horse's mouth, in this case the airline, for accurate and up-to-date information. WP should therefore include links to such sources and eliminate unreliable information. treesmill ( talk) 01:30, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm not particularly fond of the verifiability going on in the McCarran International Airport article. All of those references are making the info look cluttered. If we're going to reference the destinations, then just have one or two after the destinations; like the model in Port Columbus International Airport. This way, the destinations are cited, and it doesn't make the information distracting. Any comments? Sox 23 05:21, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Inetpup and I were having a discussion that would end up in not reaching any consensus if it went on. The background of this situation is that Inetpup wants to add bullet points to the list of airports in the infobox (hubs and focus cities), but I disagree with the change, citing that it looked much uglier than it should. Comments? 哦, 是吗?( User:O) 21:51, 19 November 2007 (GMT)
}}
and cause text below it to render in a corrupt manner.--
Inetpup (
talk) 23:18, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
.--
Inetpup (
talk) 22:56, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
My guess is that WP sees a similar breakdown. -- Boracay Bill ( talk) 11:51, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
-- Inetpup ( talk) 06:46, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
The results seem pretty stable now. There was not a perfect consensus but this issue is resolved. Out of nine votes, 66.67% supported the bullets, 11.11% dissented, and 22.22% didn't care. Since the results are definitive enough, we should feel free to change the hubs into to the new format.-- Inetpup ( talk) 19:02, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Can someone take a look at National Airlines/Private Jet Expeditions? If this is real, it probably needs to be moved to article space from being a subpage. Vegaswikian ( talk) 19:35, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm planning to revise the destination layout on the destinations pages of the regional destinations such as Chautauqua Airlines destinations since the current layout takes up a lot of space. I'm suggesting to change the layout simillar with Oneworld destinations by placing the IATA code of the mainline carrier beside the destination. What do you guys think? -chris^_^ ( talk) 09:34, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Just noticed a user adding airport categories to US airlines for example Category:Stapleton International Airport to Continental Airlines. As this has a potential to add over 290 categories to this airline in particular and other US airlines had this been brought up for discussion anywhere? Is it a good idea? MilborneOne ( talk) 20:50, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
List of airports in the Philippines appears to have a problem. Apparently in the Philippines, they commonly use the last 3 characters of the UN location codes to identify airports locally. Some editors are apparently insisting on calling this the IATA code. I have no problem using that code in the table as long as it is not called an IATA code which it is apparently not. Vegaswikian ( talk) 03:58, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Hello members of WikiProject Airlines,
I just wondered if anyone is interested in helping us with a new wiki, Plane Spotting World.
Please let me know if you;re interested!
Bluegoblin 7 19:33, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
A user has just renamed Template:Airlines of the United Kingdom to Template:UK Airlines have I missed something has this been discussed anywhere ? MilborneOne ( talk) 20:48, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
There is an AfD debate ongoing regarding the article Clickair destinations. While the page clearly complies with WikiProject Airlines guidelines on destinations lists (by taking long destinations lists off the main page into a dedicated article as this one) the suggestion is that the article does not belong in an encyclopedia and that it should be removed (without subseqent replication on the original Clickair page).
I am concerned that this would set a significant precedent for all airline articles and the 236 other airline destinations articles on Wikipedia. I would appreciate the views of other members and interested editors both here and at the AfD debate where I have already given my own thoughts. SempreVolando ( talk) 09:09, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
I have nominated Singapore Airlines Flight 380 for Afd. As we don't have the ability to call upon nationalistic tendencies in any keep/delete reasonings, project members are urged to weigh in with their opinions on the matter. -- Russavia ( talk) 21:27, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
The only thing I have to say, is that I have nothing to say, but will let the links do the talking.
Most of it is mere duplication of content in the main article, and this fanboy behaviour is seen on other articles such as Malaysia Airlines, Thai Airways International and Singapore Airlines (funnily enough the creator of the Emirates navbox has used the Singapore Airlines navbox as a guide, but has stupidly left some of the Singapore Airlines in it).
This really does need to stop, the amount of absolutely irrelevant information in the airline articles is getting totally out of hand, and I will begin by simply nominating some these articles for deletion. There is no other way, is there? -- Russavia ( talk) 18:02, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Just a heads up that I have put Emirates Airline Marketing and sponsorships up for Afd, which you can view here. Interested project members should weigh in with their opinions in the negative or positive. -- Russavia ( talk) 18:31, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Just a heads up that I have put Emirates Airlines awards and accolades, Malaysia Airlines awards, and Singapore Airlines awards and accolades up for Afd (bundled together), which you can view here. Interested project members should weigh in with their opinions in the negative or positive. -- Russavia ( talk) 18:34, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
I think that the British Caledonian article needs some attention. You have the main article, then these:
I did propose article mergers sometime ago, but those were removed by the editor who is responsible for these articles. Shy of Afd'ing them, what is the best approach to get all relevant information back on the main article page? -- Russavia ( talk) 20:22, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
(copy and update of my own text, which I'd posted to the wrong spot)
I just did a massive re-write of Go_Fly because it had been unsourced for more than one year and read like a non-bulleted timeline with the associated lack of flow. Anyone have anything to add? I tried to keep it as "Go" focused as possible since easyJet, Ayling and Cassani have their own articles and we were entering the Department of Redundancy Department. In addition, the scope of the article is about Go, not the effects of Go on the other entities (except the BA relationship, which I attempted to address). I think the article is much better than it was, but there's probably still some work to be done. This is my first full-scale re-write under Aviation/Airlines so I'm definitely seeking your input. I'm not certain what needs to be added at this point for an airline that hasn't operated for 5+ years. Thoughts? Thanks! Travellingcari ( talk) 00:22, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Should we remove the advertised destination tag under the destinations of Skybus Airlines on Skybus Airlines destinations. My opinion is we should remove this for it just makes the list longer. -chris^_^ ( talk) 07:54, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
While working on Mahalo Air today, I started to wonder what is the best way to handle the fleet size in the infobox for airlines that are no longer flying. Should it be zero since the airline no longer has any airplanes? Should it show the largest number of airplanes operated at any single time? Should it show the total number of airplanes ever operated by the airline? I would be tempted to say that it shouldn't show up at all for airlines that no longer operate; if this is the way to go I'd suggest someone more familiar with the template's complex syntax can make it disappear when the value is omitted, rather than appearing as a blank spot like it currently does. -- Hawaiian717 ( talk) 23:45, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
An anonymous editor recently added IATA codes to many of the airlines listed on {{ Navbox Airlines of the United States}}. I haven't seen any discussion of doing this on here; what do others think? I'm not sure I like it. -- Hawaiian717 ( talk) 16:40, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
The peer review for EasyJet is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! - Trevor MacInnis ( Contribs) 03:27, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Should these be included on the current destination pages? On some, there are so many destinations that it could be very confusing for the reader. If these should stay, shouldn't they have their own article? Sox 23 21:10, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
WhisperToMe ( talk) 03:31, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Check out Tiger Airways destinations and Jetstar Asia Airways destinations, where a table format is being demonstrated and former destinations presented accordingly with sources. Granted, both are smaller airlines which makes it easy to track such information. Not sure if this is plausible for giant airlines thou.-- Huaiwei ( talk) 10:18, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
This is my take on terminated destinations. They don't belong at all. Take this recent Afd, there is the thought by an increasing amount of editors that even the current destination lists do not belong, although they have used the wrong arguments IMO, none of them really jumped upon something which I mentioned myself, that being that most of the CURRENT destination lists are not sourced to third-party reliable sources; this is an essential part of WP:V. This means that we can not have separate airline destination lists sourced entirely to the airline, as per WP:SPS and WP:SELFPUB, these lists need to be sourced to a third-party source, and IMO it is not as simple as simply claiming OAG.com as a source, as sources which require registration, and moreso payment, such as OAG, should be avoided at all costs as it doesn't allow for verifying by other editors. Back in October 2007, I went thru all of the airline destination lists and attached the unreferenced template to them; now some 4-5 months later the vast majority of these lists are still unreferenced, and some have had the template removed and a source placed along the lines of "Source: XYZ Airline" with a link to their website. Pick a random airline destination list, and see if it is referenced inline with WP:V, very few of them are. As more and more things get added to these lists, such as frequencies, notes, and now terminated destinations, all of which are sourced back to the airline, the more and more I am being swayed myself to believe that these lists are becoming more duplications of an airlines website, and that is squarely against various points of WP:NOT. Something else that is concerned with this discussion, there is an increasing tendency in this project for long and sprawling lists and "PR" to take precedence over encycloapedic prose; take a look at most airline articles, and under the Destinations and there is simply a link to the destinations article, with not a single word of prose included. Before we, as a project, even consider whether terminated destinations should be included, the issue of verifiability needs to be looked at first and resolved. -- Russavia ( talk) 13:27, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
And that is actually the problem in regards to WP:SELFPUB Hawaiian. The quotes to follow are from an admin who participated on the Afd for Clickair destinations, and I quote him
Regarding that it is a "not a stand alone article" (Russavia), it may be intended to function as a part of the article on the company but it doesn't. It is in the mainspace and is thus ipso facto stand alone. More importantly, while the distinction is at least colorably relevant for notability considerations, as that is a topic inclusion standard, it is irrelevant for WP:NOT and WP:V considerations as those are content inclusion standards. The issue is not why it became a separate article, but whether the content is appropriate, anywhere. In the article, or stand alone, the material suffers from the same defect. If it was still listed in the article, then it would be inapproriate there for the same reasons. The only difference is that because it is in the mainspace, we are here, rather than on Clickair's talk page, but the WP:NOT and verifiability issues would be the same.
What he has written makes absolute sense. These destination list are not lists which can be used as red-link development, etc, but in essence they are in fact stand-alone articles. One argument I believe in, and have used it at this Afd, is that the answer to get rid of horrible cruft is to delete it, not make a separate article for it. Over the time with the Afds for airline destination articles we have only just been able to keep them, but with more people with more arguments such as the quoted above, these destination articles will have a grim future, so instead of creating yet another guideline which the community at large may have a problem with, we need to look at the current destination articles first, and what alternatives we have to them. Some suggestions:
Whilst this group sees these lists as essential (I think the lists are 50% essential for current destinations, and not essential at all for terminated destinations), the community at large increasingly doesn't, and I would hate to see people wasting their time on compiling and adding information which could very easily be deleted at Afd. And I will explain my 50% essential comment: the major reason we as a group use for the keep at Afd is that airlines are in the business of flying from Point A to Point B, and that our readers need to know this. The counter argument to this is that if people want to know where an airline flies to, they need only go to the airlines website and find this info themselves. A fair point I think, seeing as the vast majority of these lists are sourced only from the airline anyway. But how to treat airlines which don't have a website, like say ChukotAVIA? -- Russavia ( talk) 17:12, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
The peer review for Future of air transport in the United Kingdom is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! - Trevor MacInnis ( Contribs) 14:38, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Since it it clear that consensus was established and remains to not include tail numbers, flight numbers and code share destinations in article tables, I'm going to revert back in the changes to the project page. I understand that some editors strongly oppose this view. However the consensus is present supporting this. Likewise there is acceptance that there can be individual exceptions. One was clearly identified for the tail numbers at Frontier Airlines. I think most editors in this discussion understand that some editors will consider this to be an attack on their work. However it is clearly not an attack on any article. We are simply working to build a unified encyclopedia that consists of encyclopedic information. We owe it to all readers to have articles that follow some style sheet. That is part of what makes an encyclopedia a good encyclopedia. Vegaswikian 18:14, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
I have tried to implement the concensus which we reached on the matters of flight numbers and codeshare destinations (haven't touched registrations yet) on Singapore Airlines and Thai Airways International, and Huaiwei outright refuses to abide by the concensus reached in this project for the layout of airline articles, reverting any changes which are made. In order for this project to implement any concensus reached, I think it may now be necessary to request that Huaiwei be blocked from editing such articles until such time as he is willing to abide by concensus reached on such articles (he was previously blocked from editing Chinese related articles for some time, so this is not a new thing that he is doing here). To make this request, where does one go, because it is now getting beyond the totally ridiculous. I see no other way to resolve this, as previous mediation Huaiwei has shown he will not abide by consensus, and this is having a knock on effect on other articles, which Huaiwei also reverts in order to push his apparent ownership of the SIA article -- Russavia ( talk) 02:29, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
The neverending Huaiwei-vs-Russavia catfight is flaming on yet again in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Singapore Airlines Flight 380, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Emirates Airlines awards and accolades and now this very page, with allegations and mud-flinging going on both sides, and all articles affected suffering as a result. As I can't claim to be entirely neutral in this matter, I'm a little hesitant to bring this to RFC, but if there are others who are as tired of this bleep as I am and would be willing to support the RFC, please let me know. Jpatokal ( talk) 19:43, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm open to exploring alternatives to RfC, but I don't really see what viable options we have: for example, Huaiwei has previously rejected mediation for disputes, and the countless squabbles we're dealing with here aren't so much conflicts over article content as over the personalities involved.
But if both parties are now amenable to mediation and agree to voluntarily abide by its results — even if the mediator's proposed remedy is something fairly drastic like "Stop editing SQ-related articles for a year" — then that would be great. Huaiwei and Russavia, are you willing? Jpatokal ( talk) 02:25, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Can you not even restrain yourselves on a topic about this very type of speech? NcSchu( Talk) 17:28, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Is this RFC/U going to be going ahead or not? I would appreciate it if it could be instigated by other users, as it is now getting beyond a joke. I have bundled for Afd the following articles, Emirates Airlines awards and accolade, Malaysia Airlines awards, Singapore Airlines awards and accolades, and I have now officially had an absolute gutful of dealing with Huaiwei, and his total incivility as shown in this Afd; refer his bolding of disruptively trying to enforce an individual view, then rambling on about a guilty conscience because I take issue with his doing this. Additionally, Alice [9], RomanceOfTravel [10] and Huaiwei [11] have subverted this Afd process by removing the Afd template from the Singapore Airlines award article, and Huaiwei has interfered with the Afd process by removing the Singapore Airlines award article from the Afd whilst it is still in discussion [12]. Added to the continual refusal of these users to abide by concensus on the Singapore Airlines with the reverting of the removal of flight number lists, and codeshare information condensing as per our project guidelines, one can begin to see how one can become so damn frustrated in having to deal with this on a continual basis. So please, let's get this RFC/U going, so that this project can get back on track and get on with business. -- Russavia ( talk) 18:47, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
I just completed some work on SkyEurope but the additional information and sourcing appears to have broken the layout with respect to the photos. Can someone lend a hand with that? I know the article needs more information, but I found overall sources to be somewhat lacking apart from some PR cruft. I plan to look more into sources when I have the time. Thanks! Travellingcari ( talk) 02:50, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm at it again. I added a little bit of information on the IPO since it was historic and the growth and change of 2007. I moved some of that from "destinations" since it was placed there when it was announced and now that it's passed it became "history". In addition, I don't see the closure of a hub as much of a destination, so history seemed to be the logical place in the article to look for it. I also took out some information I couldn't source (ee info -- likely to change anyway). Travellingcari ( talk) 19:06, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
ETA: and I have no idea whether airfleets qualifies as a reliable source, but it had been in the article and I saw no reason to remove it. Travellingcari ( talk) 19:42, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to break up the way too long List of airlines page. I think List of airports has the right idea, and I've already incorporated some into the intro ( Airline codes). Comments? Should the be a separate page for each country? Or for each continent? - Trevor MacInnis ( Contribs) 21:05, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Should we have articles on codeshare destination like Flybe franchise and codeshare destinations ? MilborneOne ( talk) 21:57, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
User:63.215.26.148 (along with similar IP address presumably being used by the same user) is at it again with improperly implemented, badly formatted navboxes of questionable usefulness. This one is titled "Regional and Mainline Airline Holding Companies of the United States". While it sounds good in concept, I think it needs work:
-- Hawaiian717 ( talk) 18:58, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
I give up, for now. The concept is basically sound, though I'm not certain it's strictly necessary to have along with the category. I'll convert it to a template tonight, and it can be refined from there, or taken to WP:TfD if so desired. -- Hawaiian717 ( talk) 19:00, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Think that AeroLogic (see Lufthansa Cargo) should be created as a new airline article now that it has officially been founded. Bthebest ( talk) 19:57, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't know. A google news search doesn't seem to have much information beyond what's already sufficiently covered. I'd suggest holding off until more info is announced and creating an article rather than a simple stub. Travellingcari ( talk) 19:20, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
What is the current feeling about flags in the destinations lists for airline articles. I noticed that stand alone destination articles like Air Canada destinations have flags, but when the destinations are part of the article like Zoom Airlines they are not included. Of course there are exceptions like Skyservice destinations and Montenegro Airlines. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 16:42, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
User:RobNS is adding flags to all the destinations on Canadian airlines, I have reverted Zoom but he has done a few more!! MilborneOne ( talk) 12:22, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Your argument makes no sense when you can just as easily say the opposite: "not all destination pages have flags so why should any of them?". If other people have a problem with it they can speak up here as well, but the project consensus seems to be that we don't feel they add anything to the pages. You could help remove them, you know. NcSchu( Talk) 20:59, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
I find it funny how some folks can actually remove the flags with the comment "Removed flags as per long standing consensus on WP:AIRLINE" [15] [16]. What "long standing consensus" can there be, when the so-called concensus has only materialised a few hours ago?-- Huaiwei ( talk) 15:13, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
OK people, let's have a vote on weather their should be flagicons on the airline destination pages. As a professional art director and magazine publisher, I think it adds to the lists, both in accuracy and aesthetics. DK Publishing from the UK has taught us that encyclopedias need not be dull, or simply lists. The flagicons are appearing all over the Wiki, and they seem to be more and more accepted as a colourful and informative graphic item, that quickly downloads too. I would agree on one stipulation though, and that is that they should be for COUNTRIES only, and not states or provinces (what is next, city flags? ;-)).
YES. Canada - Anyhow, my vote is, of course to keep them. I also want to join this group, as it seems to be a fun place. ;-). See count my vote as a YES. -- Rob NS 21:10, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
NO - for the need of a vote and for a need for the flags per all the reasons already listed the other section. NcSchu( Talk) 21:18, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
NO for flags for reasons I stated above. YES to getting these destination lists referenced with third-party, reliable, verifiable sources so that they can survive an Afd based upon policy. Then let's consider flags. -- Russavia ( talk) 21:20, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
NO per arguments previously made on this talk page and those made during previous discussions on this topic. SempreVolando ( talk) 21:32, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
NO per previous arguments and discussions against. MilborneOne ( talk) 21:47, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
NO per previous discussions. Just because they're spreading all over Wikipedia (not just this project) doesn't mean they're a good idea. They may look neat but all the color can add to visual clutter and onscreen web resolution is really too low to see much detail. I'd also support redesigning the destination lists using a table similar to what's on Aeroflot, but that's another topic for discussion. -- Hawaiian717 ( talk) 22:01, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
No to flags in destination lists in the traditional format (they are just plain ugly), but Yes in table formats (looks much more presentable this way).-- Huaiwei ( talk) 13:19, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
I've checked trough the archive, and haven't been able to find anything on how lists of airlines should be formated, so I'd like to start a discussion on this. List of airlines is being divided up into smaller, more manageable, lists and a number of varieties has appeared.
There may be more.... Are all these columns necessary? Should that all be used in every list? My personal choice is AIRLINE, IATA, ICAO, CALLSIGN, plus AIRLINE (in [native language]) in the AIRLINE column and the divisions by type (Flag carrier, Air taxi, Charter, Cargo, Other). - Trevor MacInnis ( Contribs) 05:16, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
I've created Template:Airlines list boilerplate, which can be subst'd to quickly start new airline list pages, and keep them uniform. - Trevor MacInnis ( Contribs) 01:47, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
While my command of the English language is not exemplary, may I just point out that linguistic concerns seems to have taken the back seat in the rush to create multiple lists. The cookie-cutter mass-produced lists all seem to follow the introduction of existing articles like List of airlines of Singapore, which goes "This is a list of airlines currently operating in Singapore". Erm, pardon me, but I think the number of airlines currently operating in Singapore would number over 80, and not just 7?-- Huaiwei ( talk) 16:21, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Since the opinion here is to remove the beastly little flags, I will start working on a list of airlines that people here can go to, to remove flagicons. As a trained professional in visual communications and corporate identity, I can't in good conscience do this myself. However I do believe we should be consistent, and I know it means a lot to the members here, so here you will find a list of airline destinations with those evil little flags to be removed (it's a work in progress, so please be patient). We'll try and start with the 'A's first. Once you have 'fixed' the pages, please remove them from this list. Cheers! -- Rob NS 23:12, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Just finished a pass through Category:Airline destinations using WP:AWB and I think I took care of the rest. I did leave the flags in some of the table-based lists, such as Jetstar Asia Airways destinations, since as Huaiwei pointed out above, they do work better with the flags. -- Hawaiian717 ( talk) 03:45, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Does LeisureJet airline exist? It was planned in 2004, but a quick google search comes up with nothing. Same with RMA Gold Airways.- Trevor MacInnis ( Contribs) 06:44, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Just an FYI, Transatlantic International Airlines is up for deletion. I have no dog in this race, although I voted delete on account of non-existent sources, but thought some of you might want the heads up in the event there is any information and/or salvageable content. Travellingcari ( talk) 19:32, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Newish article looks like a hoax or virtual airline anybody have any info. MilborneOne ( talk) 19:03, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I searched but didn't find evidence of consensus. I may have missed it. I'm currently working on Independence Air to clean it up and fix the citation issues. My question is whether we need the destinations for a now-defunct airline and if we do, should they be on a separate page as appears to be consensus for running airlines.
Go Fly doesn't have destinations (it didn't when I began work on it and I never added them in), nor do Ansett Australia or Allegheny Airlines. However, Command Airways and Empire Airlines (1976-1985) do. By no means is this an exhaustive sample, it's the first couple I saw in each. Thoughts?
Travellingcari ( talk) 18:34, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
ETA I blew up the article, I can add the destinations back to their own page if they need to be somewhere. Travellingcari ( talk) 20:53, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
In airline destination lists Hawaii is listed in North America, but per the Hawaii article the state of Hawaii is in Oceania not North America. Shouldn't we list Hawaii in Oceania? pikdig ( talk) 05:55, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Guys come on. Hawaii is a STATE. Puerto Rico and Guam are not a part of the 50 United STATES so they're not listed under "United States." Additionally, note 19 on the Oceania page is as follows [referring to Polynesia]: "Excludes the US state of Hawaii, which is distant from the North American landmass in the Pacific Ocean, and Easter Island, a territory of Chile in South America." Sox 23 20:08, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't know if
this is indicitive of what the project wants on it's pages, that up to y'all. I don't see the ICAOIATA codes as being necessary, but this guy has a bias agaisnt Delta behind his additions, as his summary makes obvious. I'm not warring with him over it, as I really don't know what the norm is here. Thanks from a
WP:AIR guy. -
BillCJ (
talk) 00:33, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
THanks. I had a look at his latest IP's talk page, and I see what you mean. Glad to know my gut instinct was right about somthing being wrong with this. - BillCJ ( talk) 00:58, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Just stumbled across this: USALatin Sky. A once sentence article on what appears to be a travel agency or something. I think fails WP:CSD#A7 currently, but I figured I'd let the project members take a look before tagging it. Maybe merge and redirect into ATA Airlines? -- Hawaiian717 ( talk) 06:05, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
We have an editor adding airlines to the transportation category for many of the cities where the airline operates. The same editor also was doing this for the economy categories. While the airports themselves probably belong in the transportation category, I don't see how individual airlines would belong even if the have a hub in a location. See US Airways for an example. I think all of these should be removed from the airline categories. Any reasons that these adds make sense? Vegaswikian ( talk) 22:06, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
There are now separate articles for Hainan Airlines (IATA:HN), Grand China Air (no code?) and Grand China Airlines (IATA:GS). As far as I can work this out, GS ("Grand China Express Air") is a feeder carrier for Hainan, which in turn is a part of a new merged company called Grand China Air, which isn't actually flying anywhere under its own name yet and their website just redirects to Hainan for time being. Did I get this right, and how to best represent it? Jpatokal ( talk) 06:39, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Looks like this article needs protection. Every few hours, someone changes "is" to "was" when this airline is still supposedly operating as a cargo carrier. HkCaGu ( talk) 08:12, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Anyone bored? This was apparently created by a merge and it's basically a dump of one source. There appear to be a number of available sources, but I don't honestly know where to start. TRAVELLINGCARI My story Tell me yours 17:52, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
{{ Aviation lists}} appears in many airline articles. It is an aviation navigation box and does not aid in navigation within airline articles. Many countries are creating country specific navigation boxes. I think that we should remove this extra navbox when editing articles and insert an airline specific one if available. Vegaswikian ( talk) 20:51, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
I'd be interested in hearing the opinions of other editors about the assertion in the article US Airways that it is a low-cost airline. It seems to me that the sources linked to do not really support this assertion; the airline's business model and cost structure are very different from those of easyJet or Southwest (as at least one of the sources actually indicates). ProhibitOnions (T) 22:05, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
<deindent for clarity>I agree there should be discussion of the issue in the article, but it belongs in the lede - unless we're going to remove it from the lede of all other LCCs. There are more than enough sources - again, government, media, academic - to support the fact that US Airways (being the descendant of America West) is an LCC. There is some debate about how far toward LCC they have gone - but they are an LCC. I have split the "airline" link off the "low-cost airline" pipe, so that the (valid) issue of pure "airline" not being linked in the first line, is solved. I'm going to do that with the rest of the LCC airline articles as well.
The reason for being moved into the LCC category only now despite the fact that the US Airways merger took place in 2005, is that the operating certificates were not merged until 2007. There's no "rapid transformation" into an LCC - to suggest that that is the case, is misleading at best. If you look at the history, US Airways has been moving (in fits and starts) toward a stripped-down, low-operating-cost carrier since its 2002 trip to bankruptcy court. (After BK 1, they shed lots of planes, rationalized the fleet structure, etc.) That was only reinforced by its second trip to bankruptcy court in 2004. The fact that it was then bought by a low-cost carrier, merged into that low-cost carrier (AWA is the surviving corporate structure, which was then renamed US Airways) and the process of LCC-ization intensified, is one of the stranger sets of occurrences in airline history. (Then again, US Airways is pretty much the poster child for strange stuff in the industry.)
All of this should be mentioned in the article; it will make an interesting segment.
Looking over that Unisys document, I'm really not sure where it came from, but it's not a particularly helpful source because it's from 2003. It seems to be talking about US Airways right after emergence from the first bankruptcy - which doesn't really help tell us anything about today's operations. FCYTravis ( talk) 16:50, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
I have just removed (twice) three incidents on the Pinnacle Airlines that are not notable, an IP user has reverted each time. Any help or opinions welcome. MilborneOne ( talk) 18:57, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Can anyone figure out why articles with this template now have a ton of white space at the beginning of the article? Vegaswikian ( talk) 08:01, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't see anything on either this wikiproject page nor WP:AIRPORTS about destinations that are pending government approval. Do we have any thoughts on whether it is appropriate to list them on airline and airport destination lists? What is bringing this up is the inclusion of Philippine Airlines proposed service to San Diego International Airport. -- Hawaiian717 ( talk) 15:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
In many airline articles, there is a section about service changes. While it might be OK to list changes that add a new destination or drop an existing one, I think that listing frequency changes is not encyclopedic. The agreement that I think exists, is that listing the locations served is encyclopedic. No one has ever made the case the frequency of service is encyclopedic. I think we should drop all mention of changes in the frequency of service. Vegaswikian ( talk) 19:47, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
I continue to believe that a logical case-by-case approach is far better than an outright blanket ban, in this case on any mention of frequency changes. There are some changes in schedules which can be much more significant on their own, whether it represented a major change, or involved a key market for the airline or the industry. I would also think it is alright for airline articles to basically list schedule changes, including new or suspended routes relevant in the latest available FY or timetable, or to only highlight important ones if there are too many changes in that period. Taken as a whole, analysing all changes for a fiscal year (or usually half a fiscal year as per each summer/winter schedule published) can tell alot on the airline's growth for the next six or 12 months, and the airline's short-term growth strategy, which can certainly be of encyclopedic value. Compare this to the vague unsourced statements currently pepppered all over airline articles saying "the airline is growing fast" without really saying how, where, and how much in a clear, concise, quantifiable and verifiable manner.-- Huaiwei ( talk) 04:28, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
-- We, as a project, need to remember that an encyclopaedia is supposed to remain somewhat static with only major, notable events being added over time; by all rights, information that is added now should still be in the article in 1, 2, 5, 10, 50 years time. This section in the Singapore article was removed by myself as it only includes frequency changes. Changes in frequency and new routes should not be included as WP is not an online timetable and not an extension of the airline PR department. The only things which our articles should be listing is new destinations, and even then this project needs to remember that half of the community at large does not agree with even destinations being added (refer to past Afd discussions), and the more that this line is blurred, the more I see myself agreeing with that other half. It is my opinion that new routes (as opposed to new destinations) and terminated routes (as opposed to terminated destinations) should not be included. Sox above mentions 'New and dropped service can point to the direction the airline is flying to', I disagree with this for the most part, as the articles should state via prose what markets the airline is serving, and the best place to put prose is in the article proper, and most definitely in the 'Destinations' section; placing it in the destinations section adds some credence to the current concensus of the project that destinations are needed as an integral indicator of the airline's operations. Looking at the recent changes, one done by myself, and the rest done in my name without my knowledge (and by the way, no I am not WP:AIRLINES), this is what I think should and shouldn't stay/go:
I think it might be beneficial for project members to collaborate on a stub or start article, one which is not so much developed, and thereby no long term standards, and work with it, and perhaps look at the project guidelines and tweaking them where necessary. What say you all? -- Россавиа Диалог 16:23, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
On the Southwest Airlines article, these new routes are showing WN's recent focus on building up operations at DEN. (When "discontinued routes" was included on the article, it was showing WN's focus on eliminating trans-con routes [LAX-PHL, OAK-PHL, etc..] I don't see why that shouldn't be included. Factual, visual information like (these weren't frequency changes either; they are/were new/eliminated routes) that is more effective than simply having writing: "Southwest is putting a focus on building operations in Denver." This gives the reader the knowledge and then the specific examples of how the airline is going about doing this. I completely agree that routes with frequency changes should not be included, but new/discontinued routes I think should stay. (By the way- I didn't mean to say that you were WP:AIRLINES, just that when Huaiwei was deleting these sections saying "per Russavia" that there was no discussion at WP:Airports.) Did not mean to blame you. Sox 23 20:49, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I wonder from where did Russavia get the faintest idea that this encyclopedia is supposed to be "somewhat static with only major, notable events being added over time". This goes against the very core idea that Wikipedia is a community project open for anyone to edit, and not one where edits are discouraged just because they add to the editing statistics. The notability of any article changes over time, and so does its contents. There is no reasonable guarantee that one can add content now and be reasonably sure that it will remain relevant 50 years or even 5 years later, because the summary style of our articles will inevitably render the least notable element removed to maintain a reasonable article length. Unless Russavia is an aviation guru able to predict the course that the aviation industry will take over the next 50 or even 5 years, I find it a wishful thinking to consider minimal editing as an "editing standard" that this WP should be adopting.
As I have already explained at length above, I do not call for absolute inclusion of all frequency changes, and if they should be included, be done so with reasonable length for the primary purpose of knowledge and research. Russavia regularly fails to directly explain why such inclusion would be non-notable or unencyclopedic, relegating everything as "listcruft" (or in this case, an "online timetable") or an "extension of the airline PR department". A list of recent changes in an airline's schedules can hardly function as an "online timetable" in any sense of the word, nor can it promote an airline in any direct, feasible way, certainly not any more than the existance of the article itself.
Wikipedia articles has always been writtern for anyone, be it casual readers to industry professionals. Jimmy Wales himself says that Wikipedia is "an effort to create and distribute a multilingual free encyclopedia of the highest quality to every single person on the planet in his or her own language" [17], so who are we to question that vision? Wikipedia editors, when evaluating notability of any given subject, should not have a misconceived idea that these articles only target a specific segment of the global population by censoring supposedly "useless" and "technical" information, as what some are clearly doing (and which I have constantly opposed much to their chagrin). Fear of confusion caused to the uninformed should be turned into a motivation to research, write and expand our articles, not as an excuse to self-censor and negate the opportunity to educate them through our work under the veil of "consistency".
And I hope Russavia can provide better excuses than another "anti-PR exercise" when targeting Singapore Airlines related articles next time. If that exercise is indeed such a core concern to him, at least be reasonably consistent about it. ;)-- Huaiwei ( talk) 21:14, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I am going to put US Airways livery up at Afd. Is there any reason this article exists, apart from that it was split out of US Airways due to essentially being a gallery and taking up too much room in the main article? Even though it may be a 'sub article' it is stil in the mainspace, and it is lacking references from reliable sources (airliners.net is NOT a reliable source for anything) which discuss US Airways livery in any detail. The one sentence from an Afd discussion which always sits on my mind is 'The solution to getting rid of cruft is to delete it, not create a separate article for it'. If one must use photos on US Airways, the solution is:
Wikipedia is not a list of various links to airliners.net nor a fansite. Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia. I fail to see why any airline article would need to have all of these sub-pages ( fleets, airport lounges, flight numbers, flight attendant relevant to one airline only (who cares what shade of lipstick they can wear, lets get real people), non notable subsidiaries, frequent flyer programs (Aeroplan excepted due to it being listed on a stock exchange), articles relating to cabins for one airline, etc, etc) when Pan Am, El Al and Biman Bangladesh Airlines don't. Those are the featured articles relating to WP:AIRLINES, if that means anything. -- Россавиа Диалог 19:20, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
User:Tobibln is adding flags to all the airline infoboxes (in the Headquarters field), I have reverted a few but just thought I would check what the project position was. Thanks MilborneOne ( talk) 22:05, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
I was just wondering. If a few members in this wikiProject find themselves constantly reverting a feature added by other users, dosent this not reflect something about true concensus on the ground?-- Huaiwei ( talk) 15:36, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
I notice that Frequent Flier Programs are included with the respective Airline article. Are there any exceptions? -- Novelty ( talk) 09:53, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
In early April, I removed a large section of 'accidents and incidents' on the Northwest Airlines article. By following the guidelines of this project, it was my opinion that those incidents were not notable. The removal of these incidents was disputed by User:Golich17, as seen in this diff, which was in turn reverted by MilborneOne (he appeared to be in agreeance with the removal which I performed). Northwest Airlines is not the only airline I have done this with, I have done it with, from memory, Qantas, Aeroflot, Singapore Airlines, and a whole host of other articles. I think it is time that this guideline be discussed so that the entire project can read off the same page, so that we all know what is and isn't appropriate for an encyclopaedia article. Seeing as we have a diff available for the Northwest Airlines article, I will explain why these incidents were removed, and it will apply as to why I have removed other incidents on other articles without prejudice. I hope that project members can discuss this, and perhaps tweak that guideline accordingly. I will place the guidelines which are on WP:AIRLINES here, so that one needn't go from page to page. The guidelines are:
- Incidents and accidents
- Accidents or incidents should only be included if:
- The event was fatal to either aircraft occupants or persons on the ground;
- The event involved hull loss or serious damage to the aircraft or airport;
- The event resulted in changes to procedures, regulations or processes affecting airports, airlines or the aircraft industry.
And here are my reasons for the removal of those and other incidents:
These is my opinion on why I removed these incidents. And for further opinions, I will say this. I am in no pointing the finger at any fellow wikipedian with what I say, rather I am squarely pointing the finger at the media. The media these days is evermore sensationalistic, and we as participants in building an encyclopaedia need to cut through the media bullshit and present articles which are concise, well laid out, and more important, informational and relevant to what a reader who is vanilla on any given article subject would need to know in order to have a well-informed, (hopefully more than basic) understanding of that subject. Inclusion of what I (and others, I will let those people speak for themselves though) believe to be irrelevant incidents in the overall picture of any given airline is not helping that vanilla reader to gain an above basic understanding of our airlines. And this is where we need to stop playing 'media'; by this I mean, it appears to me these days a passenger on a flight farts, the passenger sitting next to them doesn't like the smell, they go to a news outlet to complain, and the so-called news outlet runs with the story, making it the most sensational story one has ever seen. And when all is said and done, this incident is added to the wikipedia article for that airline. It is my opinion that if an incident can not be mentioned in an airline article with a link to an article on that incident, it shouldn't be included. If it isn't notable to hold up on its own as an incident, then it likely is not all that significant. Of course, this doesn't preclude obviously notable incidents which fulfill the guidelines from being mentioned, but where an editor has not yet created an article for that incident. I would even so far as to say that the guidelines should be expanded to include other factors. The guidelines in my opinion would be along the lines of:
- Incidents and accidents
- Accidents or incidents should only be included if:
- The event was fatal to either aircraft occupants or persons on the ground;
- The event involved hull loss or serious damage to the aircraft or airport;
- The event resulted in changes to procedures, regulations or processes affecting airports, airlines or the aircraft industry.
- The event resulted in the loss of the AOC of the airline and/or the airline going out of business/being completely grounded (obviously an incident which fulfills that is notable in the history of the airline)
- The event whilst not fulfilling the above criteria was so controversial as to change perception of that airline, or had other major ramifications, or was historically unique in another aspect. The wording is not quite right, it does need to be tweaked - but the perfect example of what I mean by this is Qantas Flight 1 - there were no fatalities, hull loss did not occur, and industry procedures didn't change dramatically afterwards - however, it was notable considering the expense that Qantas went to in order to preserve their no hull loss record in the jet era, whilst at the same time the accident was held up as the perfect case of what can happen when airlines contract out maintenance to foreign entities [not to mention the bad press received in regards to having the Chinese repair the aircraft] - they are not necessarily my own opinions on that accident, although what I have written was widely written about in direct relation to that accident - that is the general gist of this inclusion factor. By historically unique in another aspect, I guess the perfect example is JetBlue Airways Flight 292 (although I will say it is my opinion that this article as it stands wouldn't fulfill this, due to the DirecTV aspect that is what is historical significant hardly rating a mention; of course that aspect is what make this incident in the least bit significant.
So that is my reasoning on why incidents have and will be removed, and my opinions as to how I think these particular guidelines should be worked upon; nothing I have done has been done maliciously, but rather in good faith and because of the way I have interpreted policies and guidelines has lead me to act in good faith in removal and/or addition of information in individual articles, or on wikipedia as a whole. I am hoping we as a project can discuss this particular guideline, tweak it as needed (if concensus as a project on a whole warrants it), and start implementing any concensus without prejudice across the board, with changes on individual articles outside of guidelines to take place not only on the article talk page, but on this talk page also, as it is better to discuss at a project level as it gets the project involved (I am taking a good stab here, but I don't think most project members know what is happening from one article to another), whilst at the same time changes outside of the guidelines could actually be a good thing that the entire project could benefit from - well that's my opinion anyway. I will turn it over to others for their input, and hopefully critique - as opposed to criticism - on what I have written above. Россавиа Диалог 19:38, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
The ELFAA keeps being added to airline articles in the infobox as an Alliance and a navbox - the navbox has been added as a copy and paste (adding the airlines all the categories the navbox has!) - the ELFAA is just a trade association and should not be in the infobox but just getting a sanity check from other project members. Thanks MilborneOne ( talk) 14:41, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
I know that the airline ceased operations on April 27, 2008. Are they still doing charter flights or did they ceased only scheduled passenger service and retained only charter? Cause Eos Airlines has been added to Punta Cana International Airport as a charter airline there. I reverted it saying "airline went bankrupt" and an IP reverted it saying "still doing charter flights". I just wante to know if this is correct or not? 74.183.173.237 ( talk) 16:19, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Hi! Just thought I'd bring your attention to this sub-page we've set up at Wikipedia:Templates with red links. Cheers! bd2412 T 08:14, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
I know this will come as no surprise, but I removed some flag icons from Singapore Airlines and was reverted as expected. I personally think that the section these were in, Recent changes, smacks of wikinews and really should be seriously considered for removal since it most deals with the no encyclopedic changes of flight frequencies. Is there any support besides the reverter to use flag icons in this case or even to keep this section?
I will also note that the reversion of my changes also removed the ownership information from the infobox without any mention in the edit comments. Given the history for the ownership information, I suppose we may need to discuss that as well. Vegaswikian ( talk) 22:56, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
We have discussed flags before and we did have a consensus to not use flags in destination lists, the general feeling was not to add flags to the infobox but we did not come to a conclusion. And now we have another example of flag use. Perhaps somebody can suggest a guideline for when flags should be or should not be used, agree or vote on it and then have a clear guideline to refer to. MilborneOne ( talk) 12:26, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
<sarcasm> Yep, flags will definitely get the articles to FA status for sure! </sarcasm> NcSchu( Talk) 14:26, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Geez, just saying EZ1234 ( talk) 10:50, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
An editor added state flags (for the state the airline is headquartered in) to {{ Navbox Airlines of the United States}}. It was pretty ugly [18] and rather pointless. I've reverted the change. -- Hawaiian717 ( talk) 15:34, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
What should be done about these? The VS and VX pages are just registration pages (an AfD have been placed on them, though, and the general consensus leans towards deletion). However, the AA and SQ pages go into historic fleet detail; I'm not sure if it's noteworthy enough to be kept. I think a consensus needs to be made in regards to historic fleet data, as it's not consistent; some airlines have that information, others don't, and I personally don't see how it's relevant. I've merged the EK fleet page, though, because, in all honesty, there wasn't anything in that page that the main EK page's Fleet section was missing. Butterfly0fdoom ( talk) 05:32, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Virgin America fleet Cari
Me
Speak! 00:39, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Virgin Atlantic Airways Fleet
Butterfly0fdoom (
talk) 02:10, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Singapore Airlines fleet (3nd nomination) Butterfly0fdoom ( talk) 02:22, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
I think that there has been a mistake for listing Beijing Capital International Airport and Suvarnabhumi Airport as focus cities for PIA. I have removed them from the list of focus cities in the infobox since they only fly to 1 non-hub destinations (NRT is listed as a destination for PIA on the PEK page and HKG is listed on the BKK page) and to their hubs. Dubai would be a reasonable PIA focus city but Beijing and Bangkok??? I don't think so. Any comments. 125.34.65.92 ( talk) 08:52, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
See the discussion here. Vegaswikian ( talk) 06:04, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Hello, everyone. The article on Aero Mongolia says that it is now defunct due to a flight restriction. But it did get its license back, because one of my friends went to the country by Aero Mongolia not long ago. Can anyone find some sources though? -- Chinneeb my talk 11:53, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Can some others keep a watch on the Jetstar Asia Airways fleet section? We have an editor who wants to include the registration numbers. I have removed this twice so far. Not having the registration numbers in this article seems to be supported by the consensus discussions here. Vegaswikian ( talk) 23:47, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Inetpup ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) recently created, among others, Independence Air decline and road to bankruptcy, which appears quite redundant to Independence Air#Decline except for the format. Is there general consensus that we need these break-out sections. I don't think Independence Air is so big that the decline information can't be in the main article, although I think the destinations should definitely stay out. Thoughts? I'll be notifying Inetpup of the discussion in a moment. TravellingCari the Busy Bee 13:18, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Sorry to bring this up again but the last attempt to discuss this did not come to a conclusion. A number of editors have started to add flags to the Headquarters field of the airline infobox. Not a great fan of flags as I have said before but does the project have a recommendation either way. Only concern is that some articles have flags and some dont, so that if we use flags in just this context then all of them need to have flags, or if we dont like flags at all then recommend that they be removed. Any comments? MilborneOne ( talk) 20:31, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
As we have had no further comments consensus is that it is recommended that flags are not used in the infobox in accordance with WP:FLAG. MilborneOne ( talk)
As the informal mediation in relation to the various issues regarding the Singapore Airlines article was not successful, I have now instigated a request for formal mediation on these issues at MedCom at this link. The previous request for mediation was not succesful as not all parties would participate, however, I am trying again with this request. I have added a number of 'involved parties', however, if you believe you are involved in the disputes raised in the request, please add yourself to the 'involved parties' list and add yourself to the 'Parties' agreement to mediate' section. Perhaps we can now have these issues resolved in a timely manner. -- Россавиа Диалог 21:18, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
The following has been agreed by the Airport project -
Accidents or incidents should only be included if:
Can we agree something similar for the Airlines project ? with perhaps just the last line changed to remove other airports. MilborneOne ( talk) 20:20, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Any possibility of coming up with a template for the "Summary" table on each of accident pages? I've visited several and while (most) of the data is the same, the order and presentation is different. Some tables included derived data, others duplicative data. I've never proposed a template before, so I'm not sure where to do this. Heck, I don't even know if this is the right page. ( NetJohn ( talk) 23:49, 5 June 2008 (UTC))
Over at Qantas and List of largest airlines in Oceania there seems to be disagreement as to what figures should be used for the fleet of Qantas. The source which I have referenced is published by the Civil Aviation Safety Authority and is the official government record of the civil aircraft register. The source which User:Sparrowman980 uses to reference these figures is Qantas public relations in which they include subsidiary airlines. I have a problem with the use of PR sources at the best of times, and this is one of those times in which the failings of using PR sources are ever evident. First and foremost because we have a source from the ultimate authority of civil aviation in Australia with up-to-date and the most accurate records possible; if only because the accuracy of these records are mandated in Federal law. Secondly, the Qantas PR is just that, PR. They could claim they are Jesus Christ in the name of PR, it doesn't mean that Jesus Christ needs to be redirected to Qantas; in effect, what I am saying, is that they can make all sorts of claims in their PR, it doesn't mean that they necessarily hold true, or verifiable, which in this case, it isn't. The verifiability of their PR claims are easy to debunk due to the existence of the CASA aircraft register. When searching for Qantas Airways Limited as the operator, we receive 135 results (the link I provided above). Searching for QantasLink, returns 0 results; this is because QantasLink is not an airline, but a brand used to group together the operations of Eastern Australia Airlines, Sunstate Airlines and some operations of National Jet Systems. These subsidiary airlines should not be included in Qantas figures as the CASA aircraft register clearly shows that these aircraft are not operated by Qantas Airways Limited. Jetstar Airways should not be included in any Qantas figures as its flights are operated under its own name, its own air operator's certificate, it's own codes, it's own callsign; the mere fact that it is a subsidiary of Qantas should not be used to inflate figures of Qantas. This issue was discussed very briefly six+ months ago at Talk:Qantas/archive1#Fleet_size, and Sparrowman980 has used User:Fnlayson's why not comments as apparent concensus to use the inflated figures. Can we please get other opinions on this, as it is clearly my understanding that previous concensus on such issues is that subsidiaries and other entities should not be included in such figures. -- Россавиа Диалог 04:54, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
I would also like to bring to your attention to best example is here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_airlines_in_Asia they give a clear picture of what is going on. Sparrowman980 ( talk) 17:01, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
...is the Wikipedia:WikiProject India collaboration of the week. Let's lend them a hand in getting this to FA! - Trevor MacInnis ( Contribs) 12:12, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I have made a new feed for the New Article bot. The bot reads all the new articles for a day and puts suspected Airlines-related articles into User:AlexNewArtBot/AirlinesSearchResult, the articles are suppose to be manually put into the portal page and/or removed if irrelevant. Or whatever you want to do with them.
The list of rules are in User:AlexNewArtBot/Airlines, there is also the log on the User:AlexNewArtBot/AirlinesLog explaining the rules that sent an article to the search results (the log is cleared every day, so try to look into the history of the log). Please contact me if you are interested in the fine tuning of the rules
That is all. Any suggestions are welcome. - Trevor MacInnis ( Contribs) 03:09, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
Over at TAROM I have made a note of its logo (adopted in 1954, author unknown) as resembling that of LOT Polish Airlines created in 1929 by Tadeusz Gronowski and winning a competition held for this purpose by the airline. Gronowski is a famous poster artist, Grand Prix winner at World Expos and a historically important designer, but I was unable to find any information about the TAROM's logo's creators, even after writing to TAROM about it.
I mean the logo symbol proper, as used on aircraft tails, not the complete graphic symbol with text that is updated regularly. However, this information is being removed. I am not aware of any other logo that so closely parallels LOT's and observes the same graphical convention of a stylized bird in flight seen from below, circumscribed. Gronowski's bird is a crane, while TAROM's is a swallow, but the graphic design is the same, down to weight of lines and variation in angle of wings, with the lower being shorter (for the seen from below effect). Is mentioning this resemblance not ency? -- Mareklug talk 14:46, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
I am wondering whether destinations served by an airline, but operated by another should be included on the destinations article. For example Air Canada Jazz has many of its routes operated by Air Georgian, so should these particular routes be included on Air Canada Jazz destinations? Thankyoubaby ( talk) 23:08, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
The FAC for American Airlines Flight 11 is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks!
As you may have heard, we at the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial Team recently made some changes to the assessment scale, including the addition of a new level. The new description is available at WP:ASSESS.
Each WikiProject should already have a new C-Class category at Category:C-Class_articles. If your project elects not to use the new level, you can simply delete your WikiProject's C-Class category and clarify any amendments on your project's assessment/discussion pages. The bot is already finding and listing C-Class articles.
Please leave a message with us if you have any queries regarding the introduction of the revised scheme. This scheme should allow the team to start producing offline selections for your project and the wider community within the next year. Thanks for using the Wikipedia 1.0 scheme! For the 1.0 Editorial Team, §hepBot ( Disable) 22:25, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
In the airline's infobox, should the hubs be listed alphabetically or by size. American Airlines has its hubs listed alphabetically and airlines like DL, NW, UA, and CO have their hubs listed by size. 74.183.173.237 ( talk) 21:23, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
I am bothered by the use of ratings of airlines in various articles. These are usually derived from an outside source so they are readily available from elsewhere. Once included in an article, they tend to remain and may or may not be updated. Also there are so many sources for the ratings. Some that are published regularly that use objective criteria, and others that are are published infrequently or on a random basis, say Consumers Reports.
I think including the sources in the airline article would better serve everyone and then point to that if someone wants to look these up. Then I would like to remove all of what really is wikinews comments about what an airlines ratting was this month from the individual airline articles. Not sure how to deal with an airline like SQ where their recent history of top ratings is significant. Vegaswikian ( talk) 22:19, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
Just a heads up that Naming of Qantas aircraft has been taken to AfD by myself, and the discussion is at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Naming_of_Qantas_aircraft. -- Россавиа Диалог 02:02, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Please be aware the Airline and Airport projects are currently experiencing higher than normal levels of Vandalism either in the Hub/Focus boxes and/or with the schedule changes currently taking place. People are taking advantage of a bigger than normal change in the industry to slip misguiding or inaccurate information into these articles. A discussion has been started on the AMR talk page if you'd wish to participate in that as well. -WikipediaFlyer —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.162.189.243 ( talk) 03:03, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
FYI, 74.183.173.237 is an experienced, formerly registered editor. He is not vandalizing. Please WP:AGF. HkCaGu ( talk) 03:10, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Okay, enough with this. By looking at edits for the airlines' hub/focus city lists, everyone are in favor of having American Airlines list their hubs/focus cities alphabetically and all the other airlines having their hubs/focus cities listed by size. By looking at all the airlines' infobox, is this correct? 74.183.173.237 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 06:23, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
Why is this not considered a notable incident? It's had major worldwide press coverage (front page, BBC and CNN) while BBC News reports that it's a "major incident"; furthermore, a 2.5 x 3m hole caused by explosive decompression in flight appears as noteworthy as the last Quantas incident that's currently listed under the Quantas article (runway overrun). Thanks Socrates2008 ( Talk) 10:58, 25 July 2008 (UTC)