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There wasn't actually a decision to keep, it just languished on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Old for a long time without anyone deciding what action to take. Apparently the debate is now resumed at Talk:Images of Saddam Hussein. -- Michael Snow 21:24, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Hi.
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia%3AWhat_Wikipedia_is_not&diff=4770834&oldid=4770819
On this edit, an editor added a policy. The problem I have with the addition is that I have no memory that this was ever clearly agreed by the community, quite the opposite as I remember quite well a long discussion on the topic and many mails. To me, it looks like a policy added by someone just because he supported it and because of the habit of a few editors like Gentgeen to get rid of recipes on Wikipedia. However, if there is an habit of a few bold editors, I do not think it is correct to put it as a policy as I did not see clear agreement for this. I would like to see the voting page where this was decided if this should stay here. Thanks SweetLittleFluffyThing 19:50, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Last discussions to show there is not a wide agreement on the topic :
A couple of mails http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2004-February/010882.html (optim)
If some one want to be bold and remove them, fine. But a rule should only be something most people agree upon, something over which people can be punished if they do it.
I completely disagree on your assesment about recipes. I will concede that there was no consensus to delete in February 2004, however, Wikipedia is not static. There has been nothing but consensus to delete since April 2004. Anthere, find some evidence that there is no consensus, or revert your actions in this matter. Gentgeen 00:53, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
There has been nothing but consensus to delete since April 2004. Anthere, find some evidence that there is no consensus, or revert your actions in this matter.
I digged up last opinions to report on current state of discussion on wikipedia-l on the matter
Opposed to systematic removal : * http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2005-January/036902.html (Jimmy Wales)
Favoring systematic move to wikibooks
Unclear
Interesting comment
Others talked on the topic, but I could not clearly see whether they supported removal of recipe or not.
There is NO consensus to delete. Clearly.
And there is still my proposition made here in october. Wikipedia:Recipes proposal. There was discussion here, and several people where either 1) totally opposed to deletion or 2) would favor keeping recipe of significant recipe from a cultural point of view. I agree there were also a couple of people favoring plain removal, but actually, in the page, they were a minority. While I agree some recipes were listed on vfd and consequently moved to wikibooks, you also forget all the cultural recipes on which there was no discussion whatsoever, but that you moved in all cases. Of course, since there was no discussion but just a removal of content, there is no link to show on vfd for all those articles.
While i recognise your position and respect it Gentgeen, it is not valid to say there is a consensus to remove all of them.
There is no such consensus. Sorry, but really, there is not. I would personally not object to removal of minor recipes no one has never heard about.
How about this rule: Wikipedia is NOT a portal for recipes. -- Cool Cat My Talk 15:30, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure exactly how to expand on it, but the phrase sounds good. It might even mean something significant. Any takers? -- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 04:47, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
For another example, I give you User:Amorrow, as anyone who's been receiving multipage rambling emails from him over the past few days will tell you. His page http://home.earthlink.net/~amorrow/wacky.html is down now, but it started with something like "I have recently been using Wikipedia as a form of therapy ..." It didn't work. - David Gerard 22:33, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
I think the overarching point of this section is to discourage trivia. The subheadings aren't really about "general knowledge" (eg What is the capital of France?) at all but rather about types of information which is deprecated as trivia and also about non-encyclopedic styles of content. The most mainstream Wikipedia articles like United States and William Shakespeare contain more "general knowledge" than things like travel guides and genealogical dictionaries. I don't think this subheading is helpful at all. I suggest that it is abolished, that the sub-subheadings below it are promoted, and that a further subheading is added along the lines of, "Wikipedia is not a repository of trivia. Information should only be added if may be of interest to a range of people." I think it needs to be short and sweet like that - we can't even say "broad range" because that would exclude specialist academic matter, and going into more detail would just open up all the other issues on the page over again. But the current heading should go because Wikipedia is the world's largest collection of "general knowledge". Virtually ever subject which might be asked about in a general knowledge quiz is covered by Wikipedia. The section simply doesn't mean what its title implies it means and at the same time the main point about trivia is obscured. CalJW 05:02, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not an academic text. Our readership is anyone in who searches the internet for English-language information. The style, language and approach of Wikipedia articles should be such that as many people as possible can understand them. Clearly they should be factually correct and academic subjects should be written about and be sourced from academic texts, but we should not replicate academic wording. Writing about a complicated subject in a way that the general public can understand it is a very fulfilling thing. Albert Einstein did it with his General and Special Theory of Relativity! So can you! jguk 10:42, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
The purpose of the introduction is to give a layman the general idea of what the article is about. For the rest of it, jargon and technical language are acceptable (within reason). →Raul654 22:41, July 10, 2005 (UTC)
I agree with bainer and Taxman. Maurreen 05:49, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
If we adopt this, can we also get "WP is not a primary school textbook"? I'll have concise articles with the correct terminology hyperlinked for people who don't understand it, over wordy blathers full of colloquialisms and smart similes, any day, thank you. Sure, improve article style where you can, but without dumbing down or drawing out of the text. After all, there is simple: to point people to. Otoh, there is no academic:, so technicalities that we cannot put here will not be in WP at all. dab (ᛏ) 21:36, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
I don't like this proposal at all. If an article is difficult, the remedy is to add an accessible introduction, not to remove the difficult material. Print encyclopedias have continuously dumbed themselves down to reach a high-school-student market, but we shouldn't. Take a look at the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica to see what encyclopedias were like before the dumbing-down process occurred. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:24, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
I would make this "Wikipedia is not JUST an academic text", to emphasize that info of use only to PhD's is permitted, so long as an introduction is provided which is readable to the majority of people. As for the use of complex jargon, if it is the simplest way to describe a concept, it should be allowed. However, academics frequently use needlessly complex wording to explain basic concepts, in an apparent attempt to make themselves seem more intelligent. This should not be allowed. StuRat 18:06, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
I'd like some comments on the status of extremely detailed plot summaries like those at Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince - Full Plot Summary and Harry Potter (plot). Is it worth having if it is too long to fit on the main page for the book or movie? James 23:03, July 20, 2005 (UTC)
"Soapbox" is a word that is not well understood by all English speakers in the sense that it's being used there. Also, there are items of two sorts in this list: outright propaganda, which is blatant abuse, and earnest critical thinking which is easy for newcomers to get into.
Since this page is an important reference for new users, which I am of, I suggest clarifying the topic by breaking up the section heading "Wikipedia is not a soapbox" into:
"Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought"
"Wikipedia is not a propaganda machine":
Sam, could you say what you meant with this edit? [1] Specifically, what kind of talk pages did you have in mind? SlimVirgin (talk) 00:39, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
I'm still unsure what it's supposed to be stopping; could it be explained before being added? It looks very much like an attempt to change policy in order to help SS in his dispute with FeloniousMonk. Changing Wikipedia official policy as a move in a personal dispute is surely unacceptable, even if the change turns out to be OK on other grounds. -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 13:09, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
There are a lot of promoting websites like google or Yahoo and aren't taken off? why is that. Brett1 ( talk) 04:22, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
when you are writing a Article the Begining to get to get this site is no Promoting yourself, Websites or something i can not remember.but what i was trying to say was we have a lot of websites like google in Wilkipedia so i was confused on that.so if you could clarify this it would be appreciated ~ Brett1
so does this count i will write this article if you say I can Seinor League Hockey -Brett1
no one has ansered me?
It was just a thought (briefly thrown around on IRC), but given the amount of wikilawyering I've seen going around (and increasing, at least from my subjective viewpoint), I thought it'd be simply to go beyond "bureaucracy" and get down to what people seem to throw policies and guidelines around for, not as procedural guides (which is what "bureaucracy" implies), but as things with force of law. Hence, "In particular, Wikipedia is not a system of law." Thoughts on this? Should it even be necessary as a reminder? -- khaosworks ( talk • contribs) 14:29, August 14, 2005 (UTC)
In the 'repository of links' section, the term 'topical list' was changed into 'structured list' and the link was changed from a guideline page to another page (created by the person making the change). I did not see a discussion of this edit. Is it actually backed by consensus? -- IByte 23:35, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm not certain that it's a meaningful change, since either way I don't agree with making the exceptions. I'd like to insert a clause in here prohibiting all stand-alone lists of any sort, but I realize there's little chance of a consensus for that. The Literate Engineer 06:59, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps a more apt title would be Wikipedia is not a Majoritarian Democracy, since the vote tallies are not totally ignored, Wikipedia could be considered a sociocracy, which is in itself, is an evolutionary byproduct of democracy, and is close enough to it to be considered a close cousin since both sociocracy and traditional democracy depend on the "will of the people", if only in different ways. Karmafist 22:39, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
The addition of "majoritarian" isn't needed. The line "Wikipedia is not a democracy" is intended as a simple statement about certain ways of behavior; it is not inteded to be following formal definitions used in political science. R adiant _>|< 12:07, August 22, 2005 (UTC)
After the recent debate at Wikipedia:Votes_for_undeletion##Wikipedia:Conlangs.2FVotes, User:Kim Bruning deleted some text explaining how VfD does not constitute democracy in the strict sense because we don't go strictly by a majority vote. I think we should add back some text along those lines, modified to meet objections; something like:
Can someone else think of a better way to phrase that? -- Jim Henry | Talk 20:45, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
What about this alternative text, then?
Is that acceptable to everyone? -- Jim Henry | Talk 21:20, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
-- Superm401 | Talk 00:21, August 30, 2005 (UTC)
Count me with the "fringe". We have recently fallen into the habit of "voting" (that is, binding votes decided by either majority or supermajority) and it has been destructive to Wikipedia in almost every case. As a community, we are now moving away from that bad habit and back to our wiki-roots of discussion and consensus-seeking. As part of this course-correction, we need to return the wording of this page to it's old wording and intent. Looking at the history, I see that this change was made in March and, as near as I can tell, was not discussed here first. I'm all for being bold, but I think a mistake was made here and should now be corrected. Rossami (talk) 03:13, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
Not a democracy ? To me consensus and democracy are synonymous. If you mean that 51% majority isn't necessarily a "consensus", there are many cases where democracies require a supermajority, such as when changing a nation's Constitution. StuRat 17:25, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
I see no particular problem with doing this. ¦ Reisio 07:58, 2005 August 24 (UTC)
Well, for all you morons know it should be. Sure, you know how many hits you get everyday, but I'm sure you don't know how many of these hits are being made by minors. We're people too, you know, and just because we may not be able to vote or other such things doesn't mean we should be ignored here. -- Wack'd About Wiki 14:28, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm confused... Wack'd About Wiki, are you saying you wish that Wikipedia were censored for your protection? And, if so, is this because you actually run into anything on Wikipedia, that you weren't expecting, that bothered you? Dpbsmith (talk) 01:28, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
The statement does not mean that content allowed to stay on Wikipedia is not moderated at all. A great amount of content is ultimately censored, for example under the Neutral Point of View and Verifiability rules, certain language is not allowed to stay. Moreover, there may be censorship of content according to the desires of the community and editors of the page. The statement Wikipedia is not censored for the protection of minors is really a technical one.. we have no technical means available to censor content in a way that would be adequate to protect minors, without compromising the way the Wiki works (I.E. that anyone can edit the page); to effectively protect minors, EVERY edit, and EVERY upload would have to be approved by a human before it could appear on the site -- this would break the foundation principle, that any visitor can edit any page (and don't have to register). In the situation where anyone can edit any page, how do we tell if some piece of text or imagery is bad enough that it needs to be censored or not, because every user's community has different cultural ideas about what it is ok for minors to see, versus what needs to be hidden from them, different people will have different ideas of what we are claiming if we said Wikipedia is censored for the protection of minors -- in some cultures, it may be just fine for minors to see pictures of anatomy, they wouldn't expect this to be censored; in others, merely a picture with people in scant clothing, any appearance of distasteful language (even in say a quote, or article about the word), profanity would expected to be censored -- to respect other cultures, Wikipedia might even have to suppress certain political ideas and imagery as well as violent, gory ideas, sexual ideas, etc. By trying to or claiming to do any censorship, Wikipedia would be opening up a can of worms, possibly opening itself up to action, if the measures taken to censorship weren't drastic enough so that nobody could say the statement was a lie -- by offending any culture that finds something distasteful, which happens to not be censored, and by attempting to say Wikipedia is safe for minors, the result is probably a big mess.
To even attempt a censored edition of Wikipedia, it would need to be a read-only version frozen in time based on stable revisionins of articles, and careful review by some exceptional censors. (The ability to an article on the fly is something that has to be lost to achieve such a goal) -- Mysidia ( talk) 01:18, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
If they go looking for porn and profanity it's their own problem,not our's or Wikipedia's. Dudtz 9/29/05 4:26 PM EST
Shouldn't we make an article called What a wiki is not so we can describe the overall circumstances of Wikipedia and other Wikis? I mean, don't other Wikis have censorship? and are they not supposed to be link farms? -- SuperDude 08:09, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
We need to revise WP:NOT to make it clear to everyone that Wikipedia is not a repository of links, images or other media! Just look at this diff for the Hurricane Katrina article and you'll see what I'm talking about. I don't mind having links to rescue relief wikis, lost persons message boards, but am I the only one who thinks this is excessive? -- Tito xd 23:49, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
Should we say something that Wikipedia is not a collection of indiscriminat tittle-tattle about people's private lives? In particular, it is not in the business of broadcasting information about people's medical history which most people would regard as confidential, particularly any mental health problems they may have had, which if it was widely broadcast could possibly exacerabate their problems. PatGallacher 01:55, 2005 September 5 (UTC)
I propose adding the following section at the end of the "What the Wikipedia community is not" section:
If you can't figure out how to behave civilly on your own and read and follow appropriate policies, there's no rule that we have to spend months trying to rehabilitate you. We're glad to welcome newbies and guide them around potential mistakes. But if you continue to break the rules or push the limits when you've already been called on it, don't expect us to continue to put up with it.
Jdavidb 16:43, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Oh, I mean a message aimed at the disruptive, not the confused. My point is some folks disrupt and then when they are called on it they like to drain resources by bogging people down in discussion about what they are doing is really appropriate or not. Some expect to be put on some kind of probation and then try to push the limits during that time. Jdavidb 20:09, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Noone has to engage in any discussions, but policing those who violate policies is still necessary. Such policing usually involves interacting with the violator to some extent. Jdavidb 23:06, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
WP:BEANS. - Splash talk 23:30, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
I concur with Splash. I hadn't known about WP:BEANS; it's relevant here. Expression the above sentiment is very, very unlikely to have a positive influence on anyone's behavior. It is also not very concordant with assuming good faith and Wikilove. I tend to think we err too much on the side of patience and "babysitting," but better to err in that direction than the other. Dpbsmith (talk) 23:59, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Then why is there a position called bureaucrat? Dudtz 9/25/05 4:23 PM EST
We should start a new edition of Wikipedia:
Proposal application:
-Language:English -Theme:Censored for the protection of minors -Identity code for new edition:Enc -Things to be censored: --Swear words: ---Code for censorship (Swear word=----- ----) ---Ass=$$@ ---Bitch=317)# ---Fuck=6!(3 ---Nigger=^1663R ---Shit=$%)7 --Pornography and nudity will be blurred unless there is some graphic censorship applied.
--A way to censor condemned words shall be to automatically substitute them with random symbols.
Some minors are utilizing an encyclopedia, but censorship may be needed for some audiences.
(unsigned comment from anon)
It looks like [ DG's edit] may be vandalism, since it takes a personal issue between another user and himself and puts it up as official policy. He also [ edited] the article on Otherkin to insert a demonstrably false and unsourced statement about people in the otherkin subculture believing themselves to be "werehouses". The Otherkin page has since been reverted by me to the earlier version. I haven't reverted this one, however, since some of what he wrote may actually be good if cleaned up to remove the interpersonal issues referenced and if he realizes that Wikipedia is not his personal encyclopedia either. Thoughts? Jarandhel (talk) 02:02, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
"Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought" covers the implication of his edit. Marskell 16:18, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Forgive me if I overlooked something, but shouldn't "not a travel guide" be considered? I have been looking at Cambodia entries and the one for Siem Reap reads like a travel guide. I've started an edit, but came here for guidance and didn't see what I was looking for. Sections such as "Getting to Siem Reap" and "Tourist information" don't seem to fit. Any takers?
Template:Offensive in the not-censored section is offensive to me. The section clearly states that we will not change our content to avoid offending. Template:Offensive counters that. The section claimed the goal was only to "allow" censorship on mirrors, but in reality, the warning is visible here on Wikipedia, and despite the fact that no content is being removed, that entails censorship. I oppose the template and especially its inclusion in WP:WWIN. Superm401 | Talk 05:46, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Yes, yes, there are various opinions on what is offensive. It does not mean you can not continue to post up "offensive" material. It is used to contain "offensive" material for forks and mirrors as a different version so minors and others can use Wikipedia. -- Zondor 05:49, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
I propose to add the following paragraph to the section Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia
Wikipedia not being a paper encyclopedia also includes that wikipedia tries to take advantage of web-navigation techniques, see for example wikipedia:easy navigation.
-- Francis Schonken 04:00, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
I propose something like the following:
This is in response to discussion on VFU and restructuring ArbCom (particularly on the mailing list), where many participants are assuming that Wikipedia equivalents to appeals courts must function the same way as their real-world (specifically, American) equivalents do. This line of thought was refuted a few times, but persists. It occurs to me that "Wikipedia is not the real world" has a more general application, and so could be useful in WP:NOT. -- fuddlemark ( fuddle me!) 06:06, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
Remove the term "analogous" and just say "Wikipedia is not the real world and real world processes do not necessarily apply."
It's all getting a bit silly, really. Perhaps this should be printed in mirror writing on the forehead of every single Wikipedia editor. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 08:41, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not is not an indiscriminate list of subjects that already exist on Wikipedia, but you think they don't belong.
What this means is: let's keep it descriptive, rather than prescriptive. Wikipedia has evolved fairly successfully because of its userbase, who alone decide what Wikipedia is. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 08:45, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
Didn't that entry used to be on this page? I'm slightly tired of having to tell people that Wikipedia is not the place to commemorate the dead. I swear that used to be on this page. Whatever happened to it, it needs to be added again. Deaths are tragic, but unless they're notable, they shouldn't have an article. That may sound cold, but that's the way I see it. -- Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde 02:20, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
This section currently begins:
However, Wikipedia:What's in, what's out is headed "This Wikipedia page is presently inactive and kept primarily for historical interest." So, I think the reference to Wikipedia:What's in, what's out should be removed. Dpbsmith (talk) 01:02, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Thoughts? Dpbsmith (talk) 02:28, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
This section currently begins:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Precedents is not tagged as either a policy page nor a guideline. However, we seem to have a sort of syllogism:
It seems to me that either
Thoughts? Dpbsmith (talk) 01:02, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
I've encounted a pair of users (maybe more involved, I'm not sure) on a template page that are running something of a monarchy there. They claim that each and every change to the template should be brought up on the talk page and voted to consensus. Sounds reasonable right? Well when you do that, they always cast a dissenting vote for every change proposed and then declare that their dissent votes mean that no consensus was reached. Anyone trying to make a change to the template is quickly reverted. I believe it should be spelled out in writing that Wikipedia is not monarchy. These guys are running a dictatorship in a free encyclopedia and I am determined to stop it. There is probably othere instances of this elsewhere in Wikipedia. Thoughts? -- Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde - archive 01:15, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Anarchy and anarchism are not the same thing, the title of the 'is not' is clear in its meaning of chaos, however where it says it is 'not a place to test anarchism' the writer nseems to be confusing the legitimate political system of anarchism (roughly meaning a decentralised form of comunity government - which wikipedia certainly does resemble closely) with the misconception that it means lawlessness.
DavidP 16:04, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
I reverted a June change to the section that was not discussed here. Minor tweaks may have been lost in the revert. Superm401 | Talk 20:01, July 23, 2005 (UTC)
I added the paragraph below to the article before I noticed this section.
-- Carl Hewitt 14:42, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
An addition like the following has been proposed by Dpbsmith at the end of this article:
It is appropriate to report discussion and arguments about the prospects for success of future proposals and projects or whether some development will occur, provided that discussion is properly referenced. It is not appropriate for an editor to insert their own opinions or analysis, because of Wikipedia's prohibition on original research. Forward-looking articles about unreleased products (e.g. movies, games, etc.) require special care to make sure that they are not advertising."
-- Carl Hewitt 01:58, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
Thoughts? Dpbsmith (talk) 12:50, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
While generally I agree that Wikipedia articles should not be HowTo's, I do not agree that the instructional parts of Condom and Wart are inappropriate. Condoms serve a very specific purpose which requires specific usage. The only problem with Wart is that the article "recommends" a procedure instead of merely informing of its existence as a home remedy. ¦ Reisio 08:15, 2005 August 24 (UTC)
Disagree with merge and with the object itself. — Xiong 熊 talk * 07:24, 2005 August 27 (UTC)
The 'no instructions' policy should be ratified as official policy before any merger takes place. Ingoolemo talk 21:49, 2005 August 29 (UTC)
This was aggressively worded to favour deletion. In my experience, proponents of deletion who rely on this section in debates on an article very often lose. It did not reflect the balance of opinion revealed by votes. If we can have an example of one that (probably) would be deleted, we can have a more realistic illustration of what it likely to be kept. CalJW 23:03, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
Some future events, especially natural ones, like eclipses or the return of Haley's Comet, are highly predictable and should be listed even if no "planning" for the event has yet occurred. StuRat 17:41, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
I propose adding " Video game strategy guides." to the list under "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information", with a note that such guides are appropriate to create on Wikibooks. While informative articles on video games are appropriate( in some opinions, I realize this is also debated), strategies for getting through specific sections or beating certain bosses are not really encyclopedic information. What do other editors think? Specifically, does anyone have reasoned disagreement? -- WikidSmaht ( talk) 05:10, September 10, 2005 (UTC)
For a few, out of the many, examples of how Wikipedia and Wikibooks are already being used successfully in combination for games:
Uncle G 10:38:07, 2005-09-10 (UTC)
This was recently added to "not an indiscriminate collection of information." I'm moving it here because I don't think it's been discussed here yet. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:53, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
First of all, let me apologize for being so brash and not discussing this entry first! My motivation for including "Truisms" were a number of articles that were voted for deletion simply for being "unencyclopedic", but without further explanation.
A good example is the deleted article Moon Time. It went something like this:
Moon Time refers to the time experienced by a visitor to the Moon. Relativistic gravitational effects cause time to pass slower on the moon. Austronauts must adjust their equipment to adapt to moon time
After browsing through "What Wikipedia is not" I couldn't find any points that would have objected to this article, so I added "Truisms".
It may seem trivial to include this, but I feel the deletion process could be speeded up if users could simply quote the official policy "truism" in the AfD page. Apart from that, it's not always immediatly clear that an article contains truisms, for example when they are obscured by verbose mumbo-jumbo. I remember an article called "Communication Strategies" that contained a lot of elaborate truisms hidden behind business jargon. -- Klafubra 22:04, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
My own comment: true enough, and a valid category of "true yet not encyclopedic," but I'm not aware of it's being a common problem. I don't think it needs to be in WP:WIN. I don't like the particular example, either ("setting realistic deadlines improves an employee's performance") because at least one academic study found that programmer productivity was twice as high when no deadlines were set as when deadlines were set. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:44, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
I would agree to including this entry. It would cover many of the things seen in speedy deletions as well as some non-encyclopedic entries on VfD. No harm in telling users what is not a good article. - Tεx τ urε 21:05, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
I had to read these sentences three times before I understood what they meant: This also means you don't have to redirect one topic to a not fully equivalent topic that is of more common usage. A "See also" section that states further information on the topic is available on the page of a closely related topic may be preferable. My suggestion would be: The availability of space in Wikipedia means that it is not necessary for a somewhat obscure topic to be redirected to another topic which, though of more common usage, is not truly equivalent. It may be preferable to supply a "See also" section on both pages stating that further information on a closely related topic is available. Chick Bowen 18:30, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
This is a rather unfortunate way of putting it. "Instructive" means "serving to instruct or enlighten; conveying information" — something that I thought we were meant to be doing... Perhaps "Wikipedia is not an instruction manual", or "Wikipedia is not a practical guide"? -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 09:14, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a repository of failed plans and might-have-beens. This could be an ancillary point to "not a crystal ball."
I voted and recently commented on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Star Wars Sequel Trilogy which I expect, unfortunately, will go no consensus. George Lucas verifiably said he wanted to make a trilogy of sequels to Star Wars. He now says he won't and there is absolutely no plan for it. So why do we have a page entitled "The Star Wars Sequel Trilogy"? The person who created the page wants to describe what they believe the non-existent movies would like if they were actually made. I really find this unbelievable. Marskell 21:50, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
But where and/or under what title? The Star Wars Sequel Trilogy does not exist anymore than the Al Gore Presidency exists. I'm not saying don't mention, I'm saying don't give it a page. Marskell 13:37, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
Expanding on some thoughts in the talk page for Wikipedia:Importance, how about this?
-- begin proposed text --
Wikipedia is not an arbiter of importance or taste. We are not in the business of determining the worth or merit of a topic to society. We are not a Social Register. We do not exclude topics based on the belief that they may be considered controversial, offensive, politically incorrect, low-brow, pseudoscientific, or apocryphal (although when we do cover such topics, we will note controversy where it exists, as required by NPOV). Nor does Wikipedia exhibit a preference for high art over pop culture, Beethoven over Britney Spears, or museums over monster trucks. We are concerned with compiling the knowledge and experience of all mankind, regardless of social status.
While we do occasionally reject articles due to lack of importance, this is done to exclude such things as vanity and self-promotion. Any real-world topic which is encyclopedic, verifiable, and which is (or was at one point) of demonstrable interest to some segment of humanity, is appropriate for Wikipedia.
-- end proposed text --
Comments? -- EngineerScotty 18:35, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Notability proposal is a proposal to explicitly make "notability" a requirement for Wikipedia articles, and to explicitly include "lack of notability" as a reason for deleting articles. Please visit Wikipedia talk:Notability proposal and express your view on the proposal. DES (talk) 23:21, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
I would like to get input from some more Wikipedians on this topic which may have wider implications. There is a discussion in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Images of castles which refers to the page Images of castles. The Images of castles page is a collection of castle images sorted by country with links to the appropriate pages for each castle. The page was nominated for deletion on the grounds that it is a collection of images. I and a few others feel that such a page actually serves as a visual index which provides value added information in terms of improving the ability of a user to find the appropriate page they desire. In this case, a castle can be found if you know what it looks like but have no other information (e.g. name or location) to allow a search string-based search. It is possible that other such indices scattered throughout Wikipedia would be extremely useful.
Does anyone know if there have been any discussions about the use of such pages? Do others feel a visual index is a useful thing to have? Hilmar 11:10, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Question and proposed answer:
Well sure it's an online encyclopedia. But why? What is it's purpose? Well the best use I've seen of it was
David Morgan-Mar
[2]. In his
Irregular Webcomic
[3]. Whenever he has something he wants to explain to readers like a complex mathematical principal or something, he adds a link to the appropriate wikipedia article. I've hear it said by users that wikipedia is not in fact an encyclopedia. I think a section like "What Wikipedia is" would do well here for the benefit of new users.
Olleicua
13:49, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
Thanks, I added those links to the see also section Olleicua 21:22, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
I have already had the tone of this section moderated, but I now think it needs a name change. People continue to use it on articles for deletion, and it continues to be heavily rejected whenever the topic is of any substance and significant information is available. Current nomination Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ottawa municipal election, 2006, which relies on this clause, has been rejected by all eight people who have commented on it so far. The phrase is needlessly provocative, and its main effect seems to be to give people false hope that doomed nominations have a chance, thereby creating frustration and ill feeling. I suggest it should be retitled: "Wikipedia is not a repository for unverifiable speculation about the future" The introduction should be made more positive along the lines of "All forward looking articles must be verifiable, and the subject matter must be of sufficiently wide interest that it would merit an article if the event had already occurred."
This isn't going to change the outcome of any votes, but it should reduce the number of pointless nominations and cut down on any resulting ill feeling. Even with the text of the section softened, the attention grabbing title misleads would be deletionists about what the consensus really is articles about the future. The number of articles about the future is in four figures, but some people still seem to think that this section implies forward looking articles should automatically be deleted. They are being misled by the title. CalJW 15:49, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
No objections, so I'm implementing this, but I will omit the redundant clause "about the future". CalJW 13:07, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
i think there should be a mention of Wikipedia:Trivia especially in the indiscriminate collection of information sectio -- Zondor 10:37, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
I read back in the archives to see when this section was added (originally "wikipedia is not a general knowledge base") and it seems while there were people agreeing on the draft, no one actually discussed what the bullet points MEANT. There are tons of lists and categories on wikipedia on everything (like all the "list of all software of this type" lists), but no criteria on what would qualify them as "directories." There's also the whole host of rambot and school articles which would be a "directory" as well, but those are included anyway.
I think this either needs to be clarified or removed, because clearly there are "directories" on Wikipedia that are widely accepted.
Nathan J. Yoder 23:10, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
I don't know if not a "collection of unverifiable speculation" really improves on not "a crystal ball." The latter is more memorable, says the same thing, and is better distinguished from other points on the list. It often gets shot down in AfD?--so it does. I don't see how the new name makes it more effective. Edit the content, but why not go back to "crystal ball?" It's extremely well-established. Marskell 23:13, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
Yes, it does not imply that you cannot write about the future only that your own speculation doesn't belong. I really think you're over-stating it being "confrontational" or somehow offensive. Marskell 13:15, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
That may be true, but the lack of it would mean that users could create articles on stuff that is not even close to happening yet with little factual information in them. It should be made clear in Wikipedia policy that Wikipedia is not the place for speculation and rumor. -- Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde - archive 01:21, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
I think there needs to be some policy on helpful but unencyclopaedic warnings and advice given to readers in articles. Some examples of this are warnings in medicine articles to see a doctor in a case of overdose and not to look at the sun in the sun article. I have participated in some debates in other articles and it seems that some of these warnings, while no-one disputes that they may be helpful are not encyclopaedic and there is no clear line do draw on what warnings to allow and to not allow. I have no problem when such warnings are written into the article in an encyclopaedic tone, but when they are bolded or put in special boxes I think it crosses the line into being encyclopaedic.-- Clawed 09:47, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi, I want to add this to the guideline. Does everyone agree?
"Copyrighted song lyrics are not allowed to be printed in whole in any Wikipedia article. Song lyrics that are in public domain are allowed, but you have to provide additional information about the song, not only the songwriter, performer, album name and year of recording, but also the background, history or (unbiased) analysis of the music and content of the song."
My reasoning is, articles that only include the song lyrics and have no additional info are not encyclopedic. -- 84.188.177.89 12:02, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Of course, but this isn't just about copyrights. The main point is about the encyclopedic value of articles. This issue was handled in Wikipedia:What's in, what's out but since that page is obsolete, we need a similar guideline.
Also, it would be useful to mention that the palce of public domain lyrics is wikisource. mikka (t) 19:19, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Please help me out with this word, notable, that keeps showing up in the Wiki namespace. Why is this word used and not common words like important, significant, or of interest
For example what is notable, and at the same time not important, significant, nor of interest?
What is important, significant, and of interest and at the same time not notable?
A related question to people who think the word has a clear meaning, is why do people argue about it so much in talk pages? patsw 02:00, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm seeing a lot of new entries where it appears that a company representative cut-and-pastes the company's history and mission statement, with a link. The mission statement has a lot of POV/marketing language. For now, I've been using the following blurb on the poster's talk page:
Creating an entry for notable countriescompanies is fine, as long as they are written in an objective style. It is not acceptable to cut-and-paste directly from the company's website (unless the copyright issues are
handled properly). Even if copyright issues are resolved, a company's own materials are usually not written in an objective fashion.
References:
Thanks,
Does anyone think this topic merits the addition of a new template for handling these entries? Jasmol 01:29, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
I miss the good old days of Wikipedia, when people obsessed with it, who spend 5+ hours each day involved with it, were a minority rather than a dictating majority; when the only rules were to reflect truth and consensus; when Wikipedia's goal wasn't to compete with Encyclopedia Brittanica and Wikipedians didn't feel compelled to conform in order to achieve mainstream acceptance; when Wikipedia's basic nature couldn't be altered at the drop of a hat just because of a critical news article; when Wikipedians dealt with abuse of the system through their own effort rather than attempting to graft an artificial authoritarian system on to something that had grown up organically.
I don't really see what the point of Wikipedia is anymore. When it was open and free (speech, not beer), and the contributors dynamically determined what was appropriate rather than a small committee of overinterested zealots, it felt good to contribute. Now, with the ever-increasing, ponderous body of rules and restrictions -- enforced with manic efficiency by monitors who devote an abnormal amount of time to this police activity -- the average contributor is likely to just feel that they are being exploited. And since so-called official sources are now the only kosher source of information, contributors have been reduced to mere relayers of information, plagiarists and pirates.
And yet, despite these frantic efforts, Wikipedia has not transcended its stigma, and the quality of content has not increased. However, a lot of former Wikipedians have departed.
Have fun with your Council of Nicea. I am joining the exodus, farewell. -- Captain Roger Ames (preceding unsigned comment by 209.97.196.196 ( talk • contribs); only 10 edits at this IP with no relevant search matches for "Roger Ames"-- Superm401 | Talk 17:20, 9 November 2005 (UTC))
requirement, and I don't remember reading it anywhere!-- Masssiveego 19:46, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
With respect to this revert: That paragraph started with "Of course, an article can and should always begin with a good definition" at least until March 2005 and that had been the wording for more than three years. I don't know why or when it was dropped or whether there was any discussion, and in any case, "sometimes" is not only wishy-washy but outright wrong. A reader of an enyclopedia article is looking for facts. In recognition of that, encyclopedists of all epochs of history have included definitions for each and every topic of their articles. I can not imagine any reason why Wikipedia should depart from that tradition. Kosebamse 22:30, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
One major annoyance I have with Wikipedia is linkspam, as well as long lists of mediocre-quality external links at the end of articles. I believe the length of external link lists should be limited and include only a small number of the highest-quality, reputable, and informative websites. Preferably the linked websites would also be ad-free or minimize use of ads. I have come across articles with 50+ external links (e.g. Hybrid vehicle), sorted through them (a tedious process) to only find 6 links that were truly informative and worthy. How do we expect readers to discern those 6 informative references out of such a lengthy list?
I propose a WikiProject where we nominate and work on such articles that need their external links weeded through to get rid of linkspam and be quality-checked. I have also put forth guidelines and philosophy regarding external links — primarily drawn upon "official" Wikipedia policies set forth here and on Wikipedia:External links. I expanded on "What should not be included in external links" and welcome discussion on these ideas. Maybe we could use these to improve the "official" Wikipedia external link policy.
If interested in helping out, please indicate your interest on the List of proposed projects. --- Aude 23:49, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
I disagree that external links should go only to NPOV sites, as oftentimes articles express disputes, and the best way to reference these disputes is to offer POV articles from all the sides of the dispute. Also note that if you have an article about a political party, their official website would necessarily be POV, so you would exclude that? While I understand the thrust of what you're trying to do, and agree that NPOV links should be regarded more highly than POV links, I also think that excluding POV links by rote could be very damaging to the Wikipedia. — Stevie is the man! Talk | Work 21:26, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
I trust you removed the useless links from Hybrid vehicle? No. Why not? I don't think we need a Wikiproject for this. Most of the spammish links are hit-and-run. If I see a new link in an article I'm watching, I check it, and if I don't think it adds significantly to the article I just remove it. The people that put them in usually aren't serious Wikipedians, they just want to promote a site, and they don't usually come back to check. Or if they do, they don't revert-war. If they do, they can be engaged in Talk.
If I'm being particularly responsible, I check the "contributions" because frequently they will have added their link to every page they can think of.
For semi-useful links, you can add a one-sentence description if one isn't provided. A description can be neutral and yet give guidance as to which links the reader will want to follow.
99% of this is just normal editing. No need to set up a special Wikiproject. Links don't seem to me to be very different from regular article content. If anything, they are easier to deal with because spammers are not (usually) as noxious or persistent as POV-warriors. They are usually interested in promoting a site, not conducting a breaching experiment and will go look for other ways to promote their site once they get the idea that Wikipedia isn't going to be as easy as it looks. Dpbsmith (talk) 22:14, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Hatespeech moved to User talk:209.97.196.196. Kosebamse 08:48, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Body parts slang (an article I originally created by separating content from Sexual slang) was recently deleted by a second near-consecutive AFD vote that was arguably not even a consensus but rather a slight majority of delete's to keep's.
I see no problem with comparative slang guides, as they seek to inform by the comparison and by the grouping. Understanding the full range of slang in a particular category (e.g., body parts or sex) is indeed useful and encyclopedic (isn't understanding the meaning of others' speech useful?). Now, one could easily argue that in the case of the vast majority of slang entries in such a comparative article, they would not merit individual articles, and I agree with that argument.
However, a comparative guide to a wide range of slang in use is what should be regarded as a structured list, which is indeed approved for inclusion in the Wikipedia.
I would like to see the reference to "A usage guide, or slang and idiom guide." revised to allow comparative/grouping articles of slang, but continue to disapprove (generally) of individual articles for such things. — Stevie is the man! Talk | Work 21:10, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
How does a list of slang terms begin to qualify as an encyclopedia article? Examples are not description. The Literate Engineer 22:06, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Personally, I think that such lists are far more lexical than encyclopedic. They fit only poorly in Wikipedia but tend to fit very well in Wiktionary. I would argue that they should generally be transwiki'd to Wiktionary and a cross-link provided in the appropriate Wikipedia article. There are of course some exceptions but the vast majority of such lists that I've reviewed really would fit better in Wiktionary. Rossami (talk) 22:58, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Seeing the Propaganda injunction can I suggest the acronym PPOV , for propaganda point of view . People could sling it at me, quicker than soapbox , and it could avoid the counter charge of ad hominem ; being all official , like . EffK 20:29, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
The oft-repeated statement that "Wikipedia is not a chat room" seems to have been removed on October 28 without much explanation. This should be returned to an appropriate place in the policy, as it is an important clarification of why general chit-chat is not appropriate, even on Talk pages, and is likewise thus referenced in the guideline " Refactoring talk pages": "When refactoring a talk page, remember that Wikipedia is not a chat room." — LeFlyman 17:20, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
The section was probably removed because of its triviality in its past form. the real problem is not that two wikipedians exchange opinions, but lengthy political rants and discussions of irrelevant things at talk pages. You are welcome to formulate the "not chat" section based on the Wikipedia:Talk pages and Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines. mikka (t) 23:00, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm being a bold newbie and changing the structured list link in Wikipedia:NOT to point to Wikipedia:Lists, since it's a redlink, and the Lists guideline page is ostensibly where the link is meant to point. SchrödingersRoot 14:37, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
Why is notability a touchy subject? My personal belief is that Wikipedia is not the place for random information. I also feel that a consensus needs to be reached on what is and what is not notable. A lot of people seem to not get why creating an article on Joe Blo just because he won the high school spelling bee is a bad idea. This subject is too important to stay an unwritten rule or just meekly addressed. -- Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde - archive 07:52, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
I feel that strict guidlines for notability need to be set in stone, via a consensus. Some of the stuff I see around Wikipedia and on the deletion pages (where they should be) is just plain ridiculous. I've seen local science teachers with no claim to fame even in their hometowns. The list is endless. Local heroes, unknowns, bands with 2 fans, random people, useless trivia, pointless subpages... Something has to happen, the question is what? -- Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde - archive 03:30, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
As one of the editors involved in the constant battle to clean up articles about fan-favorite Lost (TV series), I've found that many new users are confused about the level of detail appropriate to encyclopedic content, versus fan content. I've used the refrain "Wikipedia is not a fan site" repeatedly, and think it's appropriate to state explicitly. Last year, another editor floated a similar suggestion, regarding sports fans.
Under such "not fan site" category would be the rubric of other fannish activities, such as: inclusion of extreme trivia; speculations on future events; archiving multiple promotional images; and chat-room like commentary on Talk pages (as I mentioned above). A note that Wikipedia is not " spoiler-free" might likewise be appropriate.
Thoughts? — LeFlyman 20:02, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
I support anything that makes wikipedia's content simultaneously more academically selective and more accessible for non-experts. This proposal seems to do that. The Literate Engineer 20:34, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
I support the addition of this item to WP:NOT, but only on the basis that a fan site basically never is NPOV (not on the basis that fan sites have excessive detail.) — David Remahl 18:07, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
I support LeFlyman's proposal, strongly; I believe that "not a fan site" deserves to get special policy mention, after seeing the constant barrage of fan-like material getting added/deleted on the Lost article. It's nothing at all like saying Wikipedia is not a science enthusiast site, because that's not been a problem across Wikipedia, as is the fan site issue. -- PKtm 00:55, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
I was waiting to get comments to point out that Wikipedia does have a section of guidance in line with this proposal at Wikipedia:Fancruft, whose contents seem to support the proposition that "Wikipedia is not a fan site." — LeFlyman 04:57, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Fan data is most of the time the same as historical data, as long as they don't add rumors, or half truths, Getting fans to give information about their favorite artists is a very good source for authors. -- Masssiveego 03:04, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
It should be noted that we have a September 11 Wiki dedicated for September 11 memorials... See: sep11:In Memoriam -- AllyUnion (talk) 09:41, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
There's a request to keep some articles as an example of WP:NOT over on: Articles for deletion/Central Galactic Union and Articles for deletion/CGU-verse - is there a place for "example articles of what wikipedia is not" somewhere? I don't support this proposal, but I wondered if anyone had heard of such a concept. Thanks Srl 07:43, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
I've never heard of that idea either, but I agree with you that it sounds like it would be detrimental to implement. The Literate Engineer 18:32, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Hm, would anyone like to comment on the afd then? Srl 19:30, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
I really don't want to get in another row with Kim Bruning. However, I really don't think a link to a userspace page should be here, regardless of whose it is. Superm401 | Talk 15:02, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
In order to encourage the use of the Wikisaurus category at Wiktionary, clarify what Wikipedia is not, and give the Wikipedia better protection against entries that do not take the form of an encyclopedia entry, I think it would be a good idea to change the working from "Wikipedia is not a dictionary" to "Wikipedia is not a dictionary or thesaurus".
This may require an additional subsection, perhaps to be worded along the lines of: 4. Lists of terms or synonyms. Wikipedia is not the place to list words without definitions, or to list various labels for the same concept.
Thoughts? The Literate Engineer 17:29, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
For instance, Yellow Journalism, or Mccartism. We define yellow journalism as tabloid journalism, however the historical confines of this definition is that sometimes media can cause wars to happen. History sometimes helps coin phrases or words as part of the dictionary, not the other way around. -- Masssiveego 03:00, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I have noticed that occasionally future projects are acceptable to make pages on, so long as they fulfil certain criteria. So what are the precise critera? For example, Predator 3 is confirmed to be in production and has its own IMDB database entry, with the specifics yet to be released, but is due to be released in 2006. Yet for reasons that I don't understand, it is going to be deleted. So where is the line in the sand there?
There was another article about "the world's biggest rollercoaster" that was again being built, and was confirmed that when it is completed, estimated early 2007, it will be the biggest rollercoaster in the world - and that article was kept.
So where is the line in the sand? I understand that when a project is yet to be confirmed that it shouldn't have an article, but when it is definitely happening, I would suggest that that is when we should allow it. What is the ruling? What do other think? Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy Darwikinian Eventualist 08:50, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
I dont see the problem with (temporary) storage of non-encyclopedic entries such as grocery lists, notes to self, etc. You seem to have unlimited bandwidth ,and all kinds of pages get deleted anyways. If I would have put it on my home page instead of a seperate entry it probably wouldn't have been deleted. Organized Shopper 17:59, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
I refer you to my response of a few moments ago at 15 December [ [12]], http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/EffK/Evidence#3_December_2005 EffK 02:49, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I added this section because it comes up from time to time; I didn't seriously think anyone thought Wikipedia was on a deadline; but it was reverted. I'm putting this here for discussion so the dissenting voices can name a date. Demi T/ C 14:59, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not on a deadline. But remember what wikiwiki means. And remember that the first impressions we give to new users matter, so don't suppose that saying "we're not on a deadline" is carte-blanche to allow rotten articles to fester. - Splash talk 19:36, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
Earlier on this page, someone points out that part of the "Wikipedia is not paper" section is confusing. And it is. I've tried to clarify by pointing out that Wikipedia content is always encyclopedic, but not necessarily exactly what would appear in Britannica or World Book. Right now, the explanation of this section really only has to do with article length and depth, not with subject matter. The second paragraph deals with subject matter is opaque. I tried to make it less so by adding:
Demi T/ C 20:46, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
Personally, I'd kind of like to see that section axed all together and replaced with "Wikipedia is to be an extensive general encyclopedia but nothing else." The Literate Engineer 18:50, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
I've added a parenthetical note to Wikipedia articles are not collections of source material because Wikisource is currently contemplating deleting all mathematical and astronomical tables (including expansions of transcendental numbers, tables of logarithms, ephemerides, and so forth) and all source code. See Wikisource talk:What Wikisource includes for the discussion of this. Uncle G 10:00, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
Yesterday, Zondor added a sentence about the Five pillars in the introductory paragraph of this page. Aquillion just reverted the edit with the comment that "five pillars, while old, is essentially an essay, not a policy page. It's not approprate to cite it authoritatively in a policy page's first paragraph.
I'd like to discuss that decision some more. I understand Aquillion's point that the Five Pillars page does not have an official "policy" tag on it but I think the page does accurately reflect Wikipedia's vision, sustaining values and guiding philosophy. I think it does illuminate the core topic of "What Wikipedia is not" by directing the reader to very well written discussion of what Wikipedia is. For new users who discover WP:NOT first, it's a way to tell that that we are not overwhelmingly negative - that we do have a positive approach. I'm inclined to ask to put the reference back in. Other thoughts? Rossami (talk) 15:12, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm concerned about that final third of a sentence in Section 1.5.2, "and for structured lists to assist with the organisation of articles." I have two concerns about it:
I think it would be useful to discuss both those issues, although I admit that I'm motivated by having seen people use this clause as justification for several lists that I believe should not be a part of the Wikipedia. The Literate Engineer 21:59, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
I added the WP:NOT#Wikipedia is not a public forum or a message board. Seems like a no-brainer, right? Zocky 01:36, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
You're right, it's not in the community section, and actually, I should've been thinking "Not a soapbox" instead of the community section. Actually, what if under "Not a propaganda machine", in 1. Propaganda or advocacy of any kind, we change the wording from
to
Actually, I'm not sure that's any better... But point is, does this need it's own section (1.x), or will a subsection (1.x.y) work for it? The Literate Engineer 01:56, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Surely this is the purpose of the talk page for each article to be effectively used as a public forum. Crippled Sloth 15:41, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
I proposed that the following list of clear exceptions be added to the section asserting that wikipedia is not a democracy so that newcomers are not intentionally mislead into the false allusion that in fact voting isn't how everything meaningful is decided.
On second thought - someone decided to maintain the allusion - patently dreadful really. Benjamin Gatti 05:34, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
You proposed nothing: your only prior edit to this page in weeks had nothing to do with that. What you did was make an unproposed & undiscussed (and thus invalid) edit to a page that lists policies. Now you've proposed it. The Literate Engineer 05:40, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
Any edit to a page that's already policy, as this one is, has to have affirmative consent backing that change before it's made. The Literate Engineer 06:07, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps the Zen of non-democratic policy is a Shangri-la. There is already overwhelming and demonstrated consensus for elections in the choice of Admins, ArbCom, RfD, etc ... Is it here suggested that truth ought to be vetted through the filter of popularity? What is - is. It is policy to use elections to decide almost everything - it is apparently also policy to state that such is not the case. Truth should start at home. Benjamin Gatti 06:54, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
A crude view says, that some of these are generally decided by voting, but it's still dubious if that makes them a democracy. The agreement to abide by a vote is not your right or anyone's right, as such. The test of that is, if it changed tomorrow, you would probably have no recourse to change it back. FT2 ( Talk) 10:59, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 10 |
There wasn't actually a decision to keep, it just languished on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Old for a long time without anyone deciding what action to take. Apparently the debate is now resumed at Talk:Images of Saddam Hussein. -- Michael Snow 21:24, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Hi.
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia%3AWhat_Wikipedia_is_not&diff=4770834&oldid=4770819
On this edit, an editor added a policy. The problem I have with the addition is that I have no memory that this was ever clearly agreed by the community, quite the opposite as I remember quite well a long discussion on the topic and many mails. To me, it looks like a policy added by someone just because he supported it and because of the habit of a few editors like Gentgeen to get rid of recipes on Wikipedia. However, if there is an habit of a few bold editors, I do not think it is correct to put it as a policy as I did not see clear agreement for this. I would like to see the voting page where this was decided if this should stay here. Thanks SweetLittleFluffyThing 19:50, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Last discussions to show there is not a wide agreement on the topic :
A couple of mails http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2004-February/010882.html (optim)
If some one want to be bold and remove them, fine. But a rule should only be something most people agree upon, something over which people can be punished if they do it.
I completely disagree on your assesment about recipes. I will concede that there was no consensus to delete in February 2004, however, Wikipedia is not static. There has been nothing but consensus to delete since April 2004. Anthere, find some evidence that there is no consensus, or revert your actions in this matter. Gentgeen 00:53, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
There has been nothing but consensus to delete since April 2004. Anthere, find some evidence that there is no consensus, or revert your actions in this matter.
I digged up last opinions to report on current state of discussion on wikipedia-l on the matter
Opposed to systematic removal : * http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2005-January/036902.html (Jimmy Wales)
Favoring systematic move to wikibooks
Unclear
Interesting comment
Others talked on the topic, but I could not clearly see whether they supported removal of recipe or not.
There is NO consensus to delete. Clearly.
And there is still my proposition made here in october. Wikipedia:Recipes proposal. There was discussion here, and several people where either 1) totally opposed to deletion or 2) would favor keeping recipe of significant recipe from a cultural point of view. I agree there were also a couple of people favoring plain removal, but actually, in the page, they were a minority. While I agree some recipes were listed on vfd and consequently moved to wikibooks, you also forget all the cultural recipes on which there was no discussion whatsoever, but that you moved in all cases. Of course, since there was no discussion but just a removal of content, there is no link to show on vfd for all those articles.
While i recognise your position and respect it Gentgeen, it is not valid to say there is a consensus to remove all of them.
There is no such consensus. Sorry, but really, there is not. I would personally not object to removal of minor recipes no one has never heard about.
How about this rule: Wikipedia is NOT a portal for recipes. -- Cool Cat My Talk 15:30, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure exactly how to expand on it, but the phrase sounds good. It might even mean something significant. Any takers? -- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 04:47, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
For another example, I give you User:Amorrow, as anyone who's been receiving multipage rambling emails from him over the past few days will tell you. His page http://home.earthlink.net/~amorrow/wacky.html is down now, but it started with something like "I have recently been using Wikipedia as a form of therapy ..." It didn't work. - David Gerard 22:33, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
I think the overarching point of this section is to discourage trivia. The subheadings aren't really about "general knowledge" (eg What is the capital of France?) at all but rather about types of information which is deprecated as trivia and also about non-encyclopedic styles of content. The most mainstream Wikipedia articles like United States and William Shakespeare contain more "general knowledge" than things like travel guides and genealogical dictionaries. I don't think this subheading is helpful at all. I suggest that it is abolished, that the sub-subheadings below it are promoted, and that a further subheading is added along the lines of, "Wikipedia is not a repository of trivia. Information should only be added if may be of interest to a range of people." I think it needs to be short and sweet like that - we can't even say "broad range" because that would exclude specialist academic matter, and going into more detail would just open up all the other issues on the page over again. But the current heading should go because Wikipedia is the world's largest collection of "general knowledge". Virtually ever subject which might be asked about in a general knowledge quiz is covered by Wikipedia. The section simply doesn't mean what its title implies it means and at the same time the main point about trivia is obscured. CalJW 05:02, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not an academic text. Our readership is anyone in who searches the internet for English-language information. The style, language and approach of Wikipedia articles should be such that as many people as possible can understand them. Clearly they should be factually correct and academic subjects should be written about and be sourced from academic texts, but we should not replicate academic wording. Writing about a complicated subject in a way that the general public can understand it is a very fulfilling thing. Albert Einstein did it with his General and Special Theory of Relativity! So can you! jguk 10:42, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
The purpose of the introduction is to give a layman the general idea of what the article is about. For the rest of it, jargon and technical language are acceptable (within reason). →Raul654 22:41, July 10, 2005 (UTC)
I agree with bainer and Taxman. Maurreen 05:49, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
If we adopt this, can we also get "WP is not a primary school textbook"? I'll have concise articles with the correct terminology hyperlinked for people who don't understand it, over wordy blathers full of colloquialisms and smart similes, any day, thank you. Sure, improve article style where you can, but without dumbing down or drawing out of the text. After all, there is simple: to point people to. Otoh, there is no academic:, so technicalities that we cannot put here will not be in WP at all. dab (ᛏ) 21:36, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
I don't like this proposal at all. If an article is difficult, the remedy is to add an accessible introduction, not to remove the difficult material. Print encyclopedias have continuously dumbed themselves down to reach a high-school-student market, but we shouldn't. Take a look at the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica to see what encyclopedias were like before the dumbing-down process occurred. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:24, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
I would make this "Wikipedia is not JUST an academic text", to emphasize that info of use only to PhD's is permitted, so long as an introduction is provided which is readable to the majority of people. As for the use of complex jargon, if it is the simplest way to describe a concept, it should be allowed. However, academics frequently use needlessly complex wording to explain basic concepts, in an apparent attempt to make themselves seem more intelligent. This should not be allowed. StuRat 18:06, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
I'd like some comments on the status of extremely detailed plot summaries like those at Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince - Full Plot Summary and Harry Potter (plot). Is it worth having if it is too long to fit on the main page for the book or movie? James 23:03, July 20, 2005 (UTC)
"Soapbox" is a word that is not well understood by all English speakers in the sense that it's being used there. Also, there are items of two sorts in this list: outright propaganda, which is blatant abuse, and earnest critical thinking which is easy for newcomers to get into.
Since this page is an important reference for new users, which I am of, I suggest clarifying the topic by breaking up the section heading "Wikipedia is not a soapbox" into:
"Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought"
"Wikipedia is not a propaganda machine":
Sam, could you say what you meant with this edit? [1] Specifically, what kind of talk pages did you have in mind? SlimVirgin (talk) 00:39, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
I'm still unsure what it's supposed to be stopping; could it be explained before being added? It looks very much like an attempt to change policy in order to help SS in his dispute with FeloniousMonk. Changing Wikipedia official policy as a move in a personal dispute is surely unacceptable, even if the change turns out to be OK on other grounds. -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 13:09, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
There are a lot of promoting websites like google or Yahoo and aren't taken off? why is that. Brett1 ( talk) 04:22, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
when you are writing a Article the Begining to get to get this site is no Promoting yourself, Websites or something i can not remember.but what i was trying to say was we have a lot of websites like google in Wilkipedia so i was confused on that.so if you could clarify this it would be appreciated ~ Brett1
so does this count i will write this article if you say I can Seinor League Hockey -Brett1
no one has ansered me?
It was just a thought (briefly thrown around on IRC), but given the amount of wikilawyering I've seen going around (and increasing, at least from my subjective viewpoint), I thought it'd be simply to go beyond "bureaucracy" and get down to what people seem to throw policies and guidelines around for, not as procedural guides (which is what "bureaucracy" implies), but as things with force of law. Hence, "In particular, Wikipedia is not a system of law." Thoughts on this? Should it even be necessary as a reminder? -- khaosworks ( talk • contribs) 14:29, August 14, 2005 (UTC)
In the 'repository of links' section, the term 'topical list' was changed into 'structured list' and the link was changed from a guideline page to another page (created by the person making the change). I did not see a discussion of this edit. Is it actually backed by consensus? -- IByte 23:35, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm not certain that it's a meaningful change, since either way I don't agree with making the exceptions. I'd like to insert a clause in here prohibiting all stand-alone lists of any sort, but I realize there's little chance of a consensus for that. The Literate Engineer 06:59, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps a more apt title would be Wikipedia is not a Majoritarian Democracy, since the vote tallies are not totally ignored, Wikipedia could be considered a sociocracy, which is in itself, is an evolutionary byproduct of democracy, and is close enough to it to be considered a close cousin since both sociocracy and traditional democracy depend on the "will of the people", if only in different ways. Karmafist 22:39, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
The addition of "majoritarian" isn't needed. The line "Wikipedia is not a democracy" is intended as a simple statement about certain ways of behavior; it is not inteded to be following formal definitions used in political science. R adiant _>|< 12:07, August 22, 2005 (UTC)
After the recent debate at Wikipedia:Votes_for_undeletion##Wikipedia:Conlangs.2FVotes, User:Kim Bruning deleted some text explaining how VfD does not constitute democracy in the strict sense because we don't go strictly by a majority vote. I think we should add back some text along those lines, modified to meet objections; something like:
Can someone else think of a better way to phrase that? -- Jim Henry | Talk 20:45, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
What about this alternative text, then?
Is that acceptable to everyone? -- Jim Henry | Talk 21:20, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
-- Superm401 | Talk 00:21, August 30, 2005 (UTC)
Count me with the "fringe". We have recently fallen into the habit of "voting" (that is, binding votes decided by either majority or supermajority) and it has been destructive to Wikipedia in almost every case. As a community, we are now moving away from that bad habit and back to our wiki-roots of discussion and consensus-seeking. As part of this course-correction, we need to return the wording of this page to it's old wording and intent. Looking at the history, I see that this change was made in March and, as near as I can tell, was not discussed here first. I'm all for being bold, but I think a mistake was made here and should now be corrected. Rossami (talk) 03:13, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
Not a democracy ? To me consensus and democracy are synonymous. If you mean that 51% majority isn't necessarily a "consensus", there are many cases where democracies require a supermajority, such as when changing a nation's Constitution. StuRat 17:25, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
I see no particular problem with doing this. ¦ Reisio 07:58, 2005 August 24 (UTC)
Well, for all you morons know it should be. Sure, you know how many hits you get everyday, but I'm sure you don't know how many of these hits are being made by minors. We're people too, you know, and just because we may not be able to vote or other such things doesn't mean we should be ignored here. -- Wack'd About Wiki 14:28, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm confused... Wack'd About Wiki, are you saying you wish that Wikipedia were censored for your protection? And, if so, is this because you actually run into anything on Wikipedia, that you weren't expecting, that bothered you? Dpbsmith (talk) 01:28, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
The statement does not mean that content allowed to stay on Wikipedia is not moderated at all. A great amount of content is ultimately censored, for example under the Neutral Point of View and Verifiability rules, certain language is not allowed to stay. Moreover, there may be censorship of content according to the desires of the community and editors of the page. The statement Wikipedia is not censored for the protection of minors is really a technical one.. we have no technical means available to censor content in a way that would be adequate to protect minors, without compromising the way the Wiki works (I.E. that anyone can edit the page); to effectively protect minors, EVERY edit, and EVERY upload would have to be approved by a human before it could appear on the site -- this would break the foundation principle, that any visitor can edit any page (and don't have to register). In the situation where anyone can edit any page, how do we tell if some piece of text or imagery is bad enough that it needs to be censored or not, because every user's community has different cultural ideas about what it is ok for minors to see, versus what needs to be hidden from them, different people will have different ideas of what we are claiming if we said Wikipedia is censored for the protection of minors -- in some cultures, it may be just fine for minors to see pictures of anatomy, they wouldn't expect this to be censored; in others, merely a picture with people in scant clothing, any appearance of distasteful language (even in say a quote, or article about the word), profanity would expected to be censored -- to respect other cultures, Wikipedia might even have to suppress certain political ideas and imagery as well as violent, gory ideas, sexual ideas, etc. By trying to or claiming to do any censorship, Wikipedia would be opening up a can of worms, possibly opening itself up to action, if the measures taken to censorship weren't drastic enough so that nobody could say the statement was a lie -- by offending any culture that finds something distasteful, which happens to not be censored, and by attempting to say Wikipedia is safe for minors, the result is probably a big mess.
To even attempt a censored edition of Wikipedia, it would need to be a read-only version frozen in time based on stable revisionins of articles, and careful review by some exceptional censors. (The ability to an article on the fly is something that has to be lost to achieve such a goal) -- Mysidia ( talk) 01:18, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
If they go looking for porn and profanity it's their own problem,not our's or Wikipedia's. Dudtz 9/29/05 4:26 PM EST
Shouldn't we make an article called What a wiki is not so we can describe the overall circumstances of Wikipedia and other Wikis? I mean, don't other Wikis have censorship? and are they not supposed to be link farms? -- SuperDude 08:09, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
We need to revise WP:NOT to make it clear to everyone that Wikipedia is not a repository of links, images or other media! Just look at this diff for the Hurricane Katrina article and you'll see what I'm talking about. I don't mind having links to rescue relief wikis, lost persons message boards, but am I the only one who thinks this is excessive? -- Tito xd 23:49, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
Should we say something that Wikipedia is not a collection of indiscriminat tittle-tattle about people's private lives? In particular, it is not in the business of broadcasting information about people's medical history which most people would regard as confidential, particularly any mental health problems they may have had, which if it was widely broadcast could possibly exacerabate their problems. PatGallacher 01:55, 2005 September 5 (UTC)
I propose adding the following section at the end of the "What the Wikipedia community is not" section:
If you can't figure out how to behave civilly on your own and read and follow appropriate policies, there's no rule that we have to spend months trying to rehabilitate you. We're glad to welcome newbies and guide them around potential mistakes. But if you continue to break the rules or push the limits when you've already been called on it, don't expect us to continue to put up with it.
Jdavidb 16:43, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Oh, I mean a message aimed at the disruptive, not the confused. My point is some folks disrupt and then when they are called on it they like to drain resources by bogging people down in discussion about what they are doing is really appropriate or not. Some expect to be put on some kind of probation and then try to push the limits during that time. Jdavidb 20:09, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Noone has to engage in any discussions, but policing those who violate policies is still necessary. Such policing usually involves interacting with the violator to some extent. Jdavidb 23:06, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
WP:BEANS. - Splash talk 23:30, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
I concur with Splash. I hadn't known about WP:BEANS; it's relevant here. Expression the above sentiment is very, very unlikely to have a positive influence on anyone's behavior. It is also not very concordant with assuming good faith and Wikilove. I tend to think we err too much on the side of patience and "babysitting," but better to err in that direction than the other. Dpbsmith (talk) 23:59, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Then why is there a position called bureaucrat? Dudtz 9/25/05 4:23 PM EST
We should start a new edition of Wikipedia:
Proposal application:
-Language:English -Theme:Censored for the protection of minors -Identity code for new edition:Enc -Things to be censored: --Swear words: ---Code for censorship (Swear word=----- ----) ---Ass=$$@ ---Bitch=317)# ---Fuck=6!(3 ---Nigger=^1663R ---Shit=$%)7 --Pornography and nudity will be blurred unless there is some graphic censorship applied.
--A way to censor condemned words shall be to automatically substitute them with random symbols.
Some minors are utilizing an encyclopedia, but censorship may be needed for some audiences.
(unsigned comment from anon)
It looks like [ DG's edit] may be vandalism, since it takes a personal issue between another user and himself and puts it up as official policy. He also [ edited] the article on Otherkin to insert a demonstrably false and unsourced statement about people in the otherkin subculture believing themselves to be "werehouses". The Otherkin page has since been reverted by me to the earlier version. I haven't reverted this one, however, since some of what he wrote may actually be good if cleaned up to remove the interpersonal issues referenced and if he realizes that Wikipedia is not his personal encyclopedia either. Thoughts? Jarandhel (talk) 02:02, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
"Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought" covers the implication of his edit. Marskell 16:18, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Forgive me if I overlooked something, but shouldn't "not a travel guide" be considered? I have been looking at Cambodia entries and the one for Siem Reap reads like a travel guide. I've started an edit, but came here for guidance and didn't see what I was looking for. Sections such as "Getting to Siem Reap" and "Tourist information" don't seem to fit. Any takers?
Template:Offensive in the not-censored section is offensive to me. The section clearly states that we will not change our content to avoid offending. Template:Offensive counters that. The section claimed the goal was only to "allow" censorship on mirrors, but in reality, the warning is visible here on Wikipedia, and despite the fact that no content is being removed, that entails censorship. I oppose the template and especially its inclusion in WP:WWIN. Superm401 | Talk 05:46, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Yes, yes, there are various opinions on what is offensive. It does not mean you can not continue to post up "offensive" material. It is used to contain "offensive" material for forks and mirrors as a different version so minors and others can use Wikipedia. -- Zondor 05:49, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
I propose to add the following paragraph to the section Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia
Wikipedia not being a paper encyclopedia also includes that wikipedia tries to take advantage of web-navigation techniques, see for example wikipedia:easy navigation.
-- Francis Schonken 04:00, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
I propose something like the following:
This is in response to discussion on VFU and restructuring ArbCom (particularly on the mailing list), where many participants are assuming that Wikipedia equivalents to appeals courts must function the same way as their real-world (specifically, American) equivalents do. This line of thought was refuted a few times, but persists. It occurs to me that "Wikipedia is not the real world" has a more general application, and so could be useful in WP:NOT. -- fuddlemark ( fuddle me!) 06:06, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
Remove the term "analogous" and just say "Wikipedia is not the real world and real world processes do not necessarily apply."
It's all getting a bit silly, really. Perhaps this should be printed in mirror writing on the forehead of every single Wikipedia editor. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 08:41, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not is not an indiscriminate list of subjects that already exist on Wikipedia, but you think they don't belong.
What this means is: let's keep it descriptive, rather than prescriptive. Wikipedia has evolved fairly successfully because of its userbase, who alone decide what Wikipedia is. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 08:45, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
Didn't that entry used to be on this page? I'm slightly tired of having to tell people that Wikipedia is not the place to commemorate the dead. I swear that used to be on this page. Whatever happened to it, it needs to be added again. Deaths are tragic, but unless they're notable, they shouldn't have an article. That may sound cold, but that's the way I see it. -- Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde 02:20, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
This section currently begins:
However, Wikipedia:What's in, what's out is headed "This Wikipedia page is presently inactive and kept primarily for historical interest." So, I think the reference to Wikipedia:What's in, what's out should be removed. Dpbsmith (talk) 01:02, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Thoughts? Dpbsmith (talk) 02:28, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
This section currently begins:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Precedents is not tagged as either a policy page nor a guideline. However, we seem to have a sort of syllogism:
It seems to me that either
Thoughts? Dpbsmith (talk) 01:02, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
I've encounted a pair of users (maybe more involved, I'm not sure) on a template page that are running something of a monarchy there. They claim that each and every change to the template should be brought up on the talk page and voted to consensus. Sounds reasonable right? Well when you do that, they always cast a dissenting vote for every change proposed and then declare that their dissent votes mean that no consensus was reached. Anyone trying to make a change to the template is quickly reverted. I believe it should be spelled out in writing that Wikipedia is not monarchy. These guys are running a dictatorship in a free encyclopedia and I am determined to stop it. There is probably othere instances of this elsewhere in Wikipedia. Thoughts? -- Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde - archive 01:15, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Anarchy and anarchism are not the same thing, the title of the 'is not' is clear in its meaning of chaos, however where it says it is 'not a place to test anarchism' the writer nseems to be confusing the legitimate political system of anarchism (roughly meaning a decentralised form of comunity government - which wikipedia certainly does resemble closely) with the misconception that it means lawlessness.
DavidP 16:04, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
I reverted a June change to the section that was not discussed here. Minor tweaks may have been lost in the revert. Superm401 | Talk 20:01, July 23, 2005 (UTC)
I added the paragraph below to the article before I noticed this section.
-- Carl Hewitt 14:42, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
An addition like the following has been proposed by Dpbsmith at the end of this article:
It is appropriate to report discussion and arguments about the prospects for success of future proposals and projects or whether some development will occur, provided that discussion is properly referenced. It is not appropriate for an editor to insert their own opinions or analysis, because of Wikipedia's prohibition on original research. Forward-looking articles about unreleased products (e.g. movies, games, etc.) require special care to make sure that they are not advertising."
-- Carl Hewitt 01:58, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
Thoughts? Dpbsmith (talk) 12:50, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
While generally I agree that Wikipedia articles should not be HowTo's, I do not agree that the instructional parts of Condom and Wart are inappropriate. Condoms serve a very specific purpose which requires specific usage. The only problem with Wart is that the article "recommends" a procedure instead of merely informing of its existence as a home remedy. ¦ Reisio 08:15, 2005 August 24 (UTC)
Disagree with merge and with the object itself. — Xiong 熊 talk * 07:24, 2005 August 27 (UTC)
The 'no instructions' policy should be ratified as official policy before any merger takes place. Ingoolemo talk 21:49, 2005 August 29 (UTC)
This was aggressively worded to favour deletion. In my experience, proponents of deletion who rely on this section in debates on an article very often lose. It did not reflect the balance of opinion revealed by votes. If we can have an example of one that (probably) would be deleted, we can have a more realistic illustration of what it likely to be kept. CalJW 23:03, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
Some future events, especially natural ones, like eclipses or the return of Haley's Comet, are highly predictable and should be listed even if no "planning" for the event has yet occurred. StuRat 17:41, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
I propose adding " Video game strategy guides." to the list under "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information", with a note that such guides are appropriate to create on Wikibooks. While informative articles on video games are appropriate( in some opinions, I realize this is also debated), strategies for getting through specific sections or beating certain bosses are not really encyclopedic information. What do other editors think? Specifically, does anyone have reasoned disagreement? -- WikidSmaht ( talk) 05:10, September 10, 2005 (UTC)
For a few, out of the many, examples of how Wikipedia and Wikibooks are already being used successfully in combination for games:
Uncle G 10:38:07, 2005-09-10 (UTC)
This was recently added to "not an indiscriminate collection of information." I'm moving it here because I don't think it's been discussed here yet. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:53, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
First of all, let me apologize for being so brash and not discussing this entry first! My motivation for including "Truisms" were a number of articles that were voted for deletion simply for being "unencyclopedic", but without further explanation.
A good example is the deleted article Moon Time. It went something like this:
Moon Time refers to the time experienced by a visitor to the Moon. Relativistic gravitational effects cause time to pass slower on the moon. Austronauts must adjust their equipment to adapt to moon time
After browsing through "What Wikipedia is not" I couldn't find any points that would have objected to this article, so I added "Truisms".
It may seem trivial to include this, but I feel the deletion process could be speeded up if users could simply quote the official policy "truism" in the AfD page. Apart from that, it's not always immediatly clear that an article contains truisms, for example when they are obscured by verbose mumbo-jumbo. I remember an article called "Communication Strategies" that contained a lot of elaborate truisms hidden behind business jargon. -- Klafubra 22:04, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
My own comment: true enough, and a valid category of "true yet not encyclopedic," but I'm not aware of it's being a common problem. I don't think it needs to be in WP:WIN. I don't like the particular example, either ("setting realistic deadlines improves an employee's performance") because at least one academic study found that programmer productivity was twice as high when no deadlines were set as when deadlines were set. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:44, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
I would agree to including this entry. It would cover many of the things seen in speedy deletions as well as some non-encyclopedic entries on VfD. No harm in telling users what is not a good article. - Tεx τ urε 21:05, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
I had to read these sentences three times before I understood what they meant: This also means you don't have to redirect one topic to a not fully equivalent topic that is of more common usage. A "See also" section that states further information on the topic is available on the page of a closely related topic may be preferable. My suggestion would be: The availability of space in Wikipedia means that it is not necessary for a somewhat obscure topic to be redirected to another topic which, though of more common usage, is not truly equivalent. It may be preferable to supply a "See also" section on both pages stating that further information on a closely related topic is available. Chick Bowen 18:30, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
This is a rather unfortunate way of putting it. "Instructive" means "serving to instruct or enlighten; conveying information" — something that I thought we were meant to be doing... Perhaps "Wikipedia is not an instruction manual", or "Wikipedia is not a practical guide"? -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 09:14, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a repository of failed plans and might-have-beens. This could be an ancillary point to "not a crystal ball."
I voted and recently commented on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Star Wars Sequel Trilogy which I expect, unfortunately, will go no consensus. George Lucas verifiably said he wanted to make a trilogy of sequels to Star Wars. He now says he won't and there is absolutely no plan for it. So why do we have a page entitled "The Star Wars Sequel Trilogy"? The person who created the page wants to describe what they believe the non-existent movies would like if they were actually made. I really find this unbelievable. Marskell 21:50, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
But where and/or under what title? The Star Wars Sequel Trilogy does not exist anymore than the Al Gore Presidency exists. I'm not saying don't mention, I'm saying don't give it a page. Marskell 13:37, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
Expanding on some thoughts in the talk page for Wikipedia:Importance, how about this?
-- begin proposed text --
Wikipedia is not an arbiter of importance or taste. We are not in the business of determining the worth or merit of a topic to society. We are not a Social Register. We do not exclude topics based on the belief that they may be considered controversial, offensive, politically incorrect, low-brow, pseudoscientific, or apocryphal (although when we do cover such topics, we will note controversy where it exists, as required by NPOV). Nor does Wikipedia exhibit a preference for high art over pop culture, Beethoven over Britney Spears, or museums over monster trucks. We are concerned with compiling the knowledge and experience of all mankind, regardless of social status.
While we do occasionally reject articles due to lack of importance, this is done to exclude such things as vanity and self-promotion. Any real-world topic which is encyclopedic, verifiable, and which is (or was at one point) of demonstrable interest to some segment of humanity, is appropriate for Wikipedia.
-- end proposed text --
Comments? -- EngineerScotty 18:35, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Notability proposal is a proposal to explicitly make "notability" a requirement for Wikipedia articles, and to explicitly include "lack of notability" as a reason for deleting articles. Please visit Wikipedia talk:Notability proposal and express your view on the proposal. DES (talk) 23:21, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
I would like to get input from some more Wikipedians on this topic which may have wider implications. There is a discussion in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Images of castles which refers to the page Images of castles. The Images of castles page is a collection of castle images sorted by country with links to the appropriate pages for each castle. The page was nominated for deletion on the grounds that it is a collection of images. I and a few others feel that such a page actually serves as a visual index which provides value added information in terms of improving the ability of a user to find the appropriate page they desire. In this case, a castle can be found if you know what it looks like but have no other information (e.g. name or location) to allow a search string-based search. It is possible that other such indices scattered throughout Wikipedia would be extremely useful.
Does anyone know if there have been any discussions about the use of such pages? Do others feel a visual index is a useful thing to have? Hilmar 11:10, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Question and proposed answer:
Well sure it's an online encyclopedia. But why? What is it's purpose? Well the best use I've seen of it was
David Morgan-Mar
[2]. In his
Irregular Webcomic
[3]. Whenever he has something he wants to explain to readers like a complex mathematical principal or something, he adds a link to the appropriate wikipedia article. I've hear it said by users that wikipedia is not in fact an encyclopedia. I think a section like "What Wikipedia is" would do well here for the benefit of new users.
Olleicua
13:49, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
Thanks, I added those links to the see also section Olleicua 21:22, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
I have already had the tone of this section moderated, but I now think it needs a name change. People continue to use it on articles for deletion, and it continues to be heavily rejected whenever the topic is of any substance and significant information is available. Current nomination Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ottawa municipal election, 2006, which relies on this clause, has been rejected by all eight people who have commented on it so far. The phrase is needlessly provocative, and its main effect seems to be to give people false hope that doomed nominations have a chance, thereby creating frustration and ill feeling. I suggest it should be retitled: "Wikipedia is not a repository for unverifiable speculation about the future" The introduction should be made more positive along the lines of "All forward looking articles must be verifiable, and the subject matter must be of sufficiently wide interest that it would merit an article if the event had already occurred."
This isn't going to change the outcome of any votes, but it should reduce the number of pointless nominations and cut down on any resulting ill feeling. Even with the text of the section softened, the attention grabbing title misleads would be deletionists about what the consensus really is articles about the future. The number of articles about the future is in four figures, but some people still seem to think that this section implies forward looking articles should automatically be deleted. They are being misled by the title. CalJW 15:49, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
No objections, so I'm implementing this, but I will omit the redundant clause "about the future". CalJW 13:07, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
i think there should be a mention of Wikipedia:Trivia especially in the indiscriminate collection of information sectio -- Zondor 10:37, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
I read back in the archives to see when this section was added (originally "wikipedia is not a general knowledge base") and it seems while there were people agreeing on the draft, no one actually discussed what the bullet points MEANT. There are tons of lists and categories on wikipedia on everything (like all the "list of all software of this type" lists), but no criteria on what would qualify them as "directories." There's also the whole host of rambot and school articles which would be a "directory" as well, but those are included anyway.
I think this either needs to be clarified or removed, because clearly there are "directories" on Wikipedia that are widely accepted.
Nathan J. Yoder 23:10, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
I don't know if not a "collection of unverifiable speculation" really improves on not "a crystal ball." The latter is more memorable, says the same thing, and is better distinguished from other points on the list. It often gets shot down in AfD?--so it does. I don't see how the new name makes it more effective. Edit the content, but why not go back to "crystal ball?" It's extremely well-established. Marskell 23:13, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
Yes, it does not imply that you cannot write about the future only that your own speculation doesn't belong. I really think you're over-stating it being "confrontational" or somehow offensive. Marskell 13:15, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
That may be true, but the lack of it would mean that users could create articles on stuff that is not even close to happening yet with little factual information in them. It should be made clear in Wikipedia policy that Wikipedia is not the place for speculation and rumor. -- Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde - archive 01:21, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
I think there needs to be some policy on helpful but unencyclopaedic warnings and advice given to readers in articles. Some examples of this are warnings in medicine articles to see a doctor in a case of overdose and not to look at the sun in the sun article. I have participated in some debates in other articles and it seems that some of these warnings, while no-one disputes that they may be helpful are not encyclopaedic and there is no clear line do draw on what warnings to allow and to not allow. I have no problem when such warnings are written into the article in an encyclopaedic tone, but when they are bolded or put in special boxes I think it crosses the line into being encyclopaedic.-- Clawed 09:47, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi, I want to add this to the guideline. Does everyone agree?
"Copyrighted song lyrics are not allowed to be printed in whole in any Wikipedia article. Song lyrics that are in public domain are allowed, but you have to provide additional information about the song, not only the songwriter, performer, album name and year of recording, but also the background, history or (unbiased) analysis of the music and content of the song."
My reasoning is, articles that only include the song lyrics and have no additional info are not encyclopedic. -- 84.188.177.89 12:02, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Of course, but this isn't just about copyrights. The main point is about the encyclopedic value of articles. This issue was handled in Wikipedia:What's in, what's out but since that page is obsolete, we need a similar guideline.
Also, it would be useful to mention that the palce of public domain lyrics is wikisource. mikka (t) 19:19, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Please help me out with this word, notable, that keeps showing up in the Wiki namespace. Why is this word used and not common words like important, significant, or of interest
For example what is notable, and at the same time not important, significant, nor of interest?
What is important, significant, and of interest and at the same time not notable?
A related question to people who think the word has a clear meaning, is why do people argue about it so much in talk pages? patsw 02:00, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm seeing a lot of new entries where it appears that a company representative cut-and-pastes the company's history and mission statement, with a link. The mission statement has a lot of POV/marketing language. For now, I've been using the following blurb on the poster's talk page:
Creating an entry for notable countriescompanies is fine, as long as they are written in an objective style. It is not acceptable to cut-and-paste directly from the company's website (unless the copyright issues are
handled properly). Even if copyright issues are resolved, a company's own materials are usually not written in an objective fashion.
References:
Thanks,
Does anyone think this topic merits the addition of a new template for handling these entries? Jasmol 01:29, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
I miss the good old days of Wikipedia, when people obsessed with it, who spend 5+ hours each day involved with it, were a minority rather than a dictating majority; when the only rules were to reflect truth and consensus; when Wikipedia's goal wasn't to compete with Encyclopedia Brittanica and Wikipedians didn't feel compelled to conform in order to achieve mainstream acceptance; when Wikipedia's basic nature couldn't be altered at the drop of a hat just because of a critical news article; when Wikipedians dealt with abuse of the system through their own effort rather than attempting to graft an artificial authoritarian system on to something that had grown up organically.
I don't really see what the point of Wikipedia is anymore. When it was open and free (speech, not beer), and the contributors dynamically determined what was appropriate rather than a small committee of overinterested zealots, it felt good to contribute. Now, with the ever-increasing, ponderous body of rules and restrictions -- enforced with manic efficiency by monitors who devote an abnormal amount of time to this police activity -- the average contributor is likely to just feel that they are being exploited. And since so-called official sources are now the only kosher source of information, contributors have been reduced to mere relayers of information, plagiarists and pirates.
And yet, despite these frantic efforts, Wikipedia has not transcended its stigma, and the quality of content has not increased. However, a lot of former Wikipedians have departed.
Have fun with your Council of Nicea. I am joining the exodus, farewell. -- Captain Roger Ames (preceding unsigned comment by 209.97.196.196 ( talk • contribs); only 10 edits at this IP with no relevant search matches for "Roger Ames"-- Superm401 | Talk 17:20, 9 November 2005 (UTC))
requirement, and I don't remember reading it anywhere!-- Masssiveego 19:46, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
With respect to this revert: That paragraph started with "Of course, an article can and should always begin with a good definition" at least until March 2005 and that had been the wording for more than three years. I don't know why or when it was dropped or whether there was any discussion, and in any case, "sometimes" is not only wishy-washy but outright wrong. A reader of an enyclopedia article is looking for facts. In recognition of that, encyclopedists of all epochs of history have included definitions for each and every topic of their articles. I can not imagine any reason why Wikipedia should depart from that tradition. Kosebamse 22:30, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
One major annoyance I have with Wikipedia is linkspam, as well as long lists of mediocre-quality external links at the end of articles. I believe the length of external link lists should be limited and include only a small number of the highest-quality, reputable, and informative websites. Preferably the linked websites would also be ad-free or minimize use of ads. I have come across articles with 50+ external links (e.g. Hybrid vehicle), sorted through them (a tedious process) to only find 6 links that were truly informative and worthy. How do we expect readers to discern those 6 informative references out of such a lengthy list?
I propose a WikiProject where we nominate and work on such articles that need their external links weeded through to get rid of linkspam and be quality-checked. I have also put forth guidelines and philosophy regarding external links — primarily drawn upon "official" Wikipedia policies set forth here and on Wikipedia:External links. I expanded on "What should not be included in external links" and welcome discussion on these ideas. Maybe we could use these to improve the "official" Wikipedia external link policy.
If interested in helping out, please indicate your interest on the List of proposed projects. --- Aude 23:49, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
I disagree that external links should go only to NPOV sites, as oftentimes articles express disputes, and the best way to reference these disputes is to offer POV articles from all the sides of the dispute. Also note that if you have an article about a political party, their official website would necessarily be POV, so you would exclude that? While I understand the thrust of what you're trying to do, and agree that NPOV links should be regarded more highly than POV links, I also think that excluding POV links by rote could be very damaging to the Wikipedia. — Stevie is the man! Talk | Work 21:26, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
I trust you removed the useless links from Hybrid vehicle? No. Why not? I don't think we need a Wikiproject for this. Most of the spammish links are hit-and-run. If I see a new link in an article I'm watching, I check it, and if I don't think it adds significantly to the article I just remove it. The people that put them in usually aren't serious Wikipedians, they just want to promote a site, and they don't usually come back to check. Or if they do, they don't revert-war. If they do, they can be engaged in Talk.
If I'm being particularly responsible, I check the "contributions" because frequently they will have added their link to every page they can think of.
For semi-useful links, you can add a one-sentence description if one isn't provided. A description can be neutral and yet give guidance as to which links the reader will want to follow.
99% of this is just normal editing. No need to set up a special Wikiproject. Links don't seem to me to be very different from regular article content. If anything, they are easier to deal with because spammers are not (usually) as noxious or persistent as POV-warriors. They are usually interested in promoting a site, not conducting a breaching experiment and will go look for other ways to promote their site once they get the idea that Wikipedia isn't going to be as easy as it looks. Dpbsmith (talk) 22:14, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Hatespeech moved to User talk:209.97.196.196. Kosebamse 08:48, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Body parts slang (an article I originally created by separating content from Sexual slang) was recently deleted by a second near-consecutive AFD vote that was arguably not even a consensus but rather a slight majority of delete's to keep's.
I see no problem with comparative slang guides, as they seek to inform by the comparison and by the grouping. Understanding the full range of slang in a particular category (e.g., body parts or sex) is indeed useful and encyclopedic (isn't understanding the meaning of others' speech useful?). Now, one could easily argue that in the case of the vast majority of slang entries in such a comparative article, they would not merit individual articles, and I agree with that argument.
However, a comparative guide to a wide range of slang in use is what should be regarded as a structured list, which is indeed approved for inclusion in the Wikipedia.
I would like to see the reference to "A usage guide, or slang and idiom guide." revised to allow comparative/grouping articles of slang, but continue to disapprove (generally) of individual articles for such things. — Stevie is the man! Talk | Work 21:10, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
How does a list of slang terms begin to qualify as an encyclopedia article? Examples are not description. The Literate Engineer 22:06, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Personally, I think that such lists are far more lexical than encyclopedic. They fit only poorly in Wikipedia but tend to fit very well in Wiktionary. I would argue that they should generally be transwiki'd to Wiktionary and a cross-link provided in the appropriate Wikipedia article. There are of course some exceptions but the vast majority of such lists that I've reviewed really would fit better in Wiktionary. Rossami (talk) 22:58, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Seeing the Propaganda injunction can I suggest the acronym PPOV , for propaganda point of view . People could sling it at me, quicker than soapbox , and it could avoid the counter charge of ad hominem ; being all official , like . EffK 20:29, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
The oft-repeated statement that "Wikipedia is not a chat room" seems to have been removed on October 28 without much explanation. This should be returned to an appropriate place in the policy, as it is an important clarification of why general chit-chat is not appropriate, even on Talk pages, and is likewise thus referenced in the guideline " Refactoring talk pages": "When refactoring a talk page, remember that Wikipedia is not a chat room." — LeFlyman 17:20, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
The section was probably removed because of its triviality in its past form. the real problem is not that two wikipedians exchange opinions, but lengthy political rants and discussions of irrelevant things at talk pages. You are welcome to formulate the "not chat" section based on the Wikipedia:Talk pages and Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines. mikka (t) 23:00, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm being a bold newbie and changing the structured list link in Wikipedia:NOT to point to Wikipedia:Lists, since it's a redlink, and the Lists guideline page is ostensibly where the link is meant to point. SchrödingersRoot 14:37, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
Why is notability a touchy subject? My personal belief is that Wikipedia is not the place for random information. I also feel that a consensus needs to be reached on what is and what is not notable. A lot of people seem to not get why creating an article on Joe Blo just because he won the high school spelling bee is a bad idea. This subject is too important to stay an unwritten rule or just meekly addressed. -- Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde - archive 07:52, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
I feel that strict guidlines for notability need to be set in stone, via a consensus. Some of the stuff I see around Wikipedia and on the deletion pages (where they should be) is just plain ridiculous. I've seen local science teachers with no claim to fame even in their hometowns. The list is endless. Local heroes, unknowns, bands with 2 fans, random people, useless trivia, pointless subpages... Something has to happen, the question is what? -- Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde - archive 03:30, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
As one of the editors involved in the constant battle to clean up articles about fan-favorite Lost (TV series), I've found that many new users are confused about the level of detail appropriate to encyclopedic content, versus fan content. I've used the refrain "Wikipedia is not a fan site" repeatedly, and think it's appropriate to state explicitly. Last year, another editor floated a similar suggestion, regarding sports fans.
Under such "not fan site" category would be the rubric of other fannish activities, such as: inclusion of extreme trivia; speculations on future events; archiving multiple promotional images; and chat-room like commentary on Talk pages (as I mentioned above). A note that Wikipedia is not " spoiler-free" might likewise be appropriate.
Thoughts? — LeFlyman 20:02, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
I support anything that makes wikipedia's content simultaneously more academically selective and more accessible for non-experts. This proposal seems to do that. The Literate Engineer 20:34, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
I support the addition of this item to WP:NOT, but only on the basis that a fan site basically never is NPOV (not on the basis that fan sites have excessive detail.) — David Remahl 18:07, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
I support LeFlyman's proposal, strongly; I believe that "not a fan site" deserves to get special policy mention, after seeing the constant barrage of fan-like material getting added/deleted on the Lost article. It's nothing at all like saying Wikipedia is not a science enthusiast site, because that's not been a problem across Wikipedia, as is the fan site issue. -- PKtm 00:55, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
I was waiting to get comments to point out that Wikipedia does have a section of guidance in line with this proposal at Wikipedia:Fancruft, whose contents seem to support the proposition that "Wikipedia is not a fan site." — LeFlyman 04:57, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Fan data is most of the time the same as historical data, as long as they don't add rumors, or half truths, Getting fans to give information about their favorite artists is a very good source for authors. -- Masssiveego 03:04, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
It should be noted that we have a September 11 Wiki dedicated for September 11 memorials... See: sep11:In Memoriam -- AllyUnion (talk) 09:41, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
There's a request to keep some articles as an example of WP:NOT over on: Articles for deletion/Central Galactic Union and Articles for deletion/CGU-verse - is there a place for "example articles of what wikipedia is not" somewhere? I don't support this proposal, but I wondered if anyone had heard of such a concept. Thanks Srl 07:43, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
I've never heard of that idea either, but I agree with you that it sounds like it would be detrimental to implement. The Literate Engineer 18:32, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Hm, would anyone like to comment on the afd then? Srl 19:30, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
I really don't want to get in another row with Kim Bruning. However, I really don't think a link to a userspace page should be here, regardless of whose it is. Superm401 | Talk 15:02, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
In order to encourage the use of the Wikisaurus category at Wiktionary, clarify what Wikipedia is not, and give the Wikipedia better protection against entries that do not take the form of an encyclopedia entry, I think it would be a good idea to change the working from "Wikipedia is not a dictionary" to "Wikipedia is not a dictionary or thesaurus".
This may require an additional subsection, perhaps to be worded along the lines of: 4. Lists of terms or synonyms. Wikipedia is not the place to list words without definitions, or to list various labels for the same concept.
Thoughts? The Literate Engineer 17:29, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
For instance, Yellow Journalism, or Mccartism. We define yellow journalism as tabloid journalism, however the historical confines of this definition is that sometimes media can cause wars to happen. History sometimes helps coin phrases or words as part of the dictionary, not the other way around. -- Masssiveego 03:00, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I have noticed that occasionally future projects are acceptable to make pages on, so long as they fulfil certain criteria. So what are the precise critera? For example, Predator 3 is confirmed to be in production and has its own IMDB database entry, with the specifics yet to be released, but is due to be released in 2006. Yet for reasons that I don't understand, it is going to be deleted. So where is the line in the sand there?
There was another article about "the world's biggest rollercoaster" that was again being built, and was confirmed that when it is completed, estimated early 2007, it will be the biggest rollercoaster in the world - and that article was kept.
So where is the line in the sand? I understand that when a project is yet to be confirmed that it shouldn't have an article, but when it is definitely happening, I would suggest that that is when we should allow it. What is the ruling? What do other think? Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy Darwikinian Eventualist 08:50, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
I dont see the problem with (temporary) storage of non-encyclopedic entries such as grocery lists, notes to self, etc. You seem to have unlimited bandwidth ,and all kinds of pages get deleted anyways. If I would have put it on my home page instead of a seperate entry it probably wouldn't have been deleted. Organized Shopper 17:59, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
I refer you to my response of a few moments ago at 15 December [ [12]], http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/EffK/Evidence#3_December_2005 EffK 02:49, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I added this section because it comes up from time to time; I didn't seriously think anyone thought Wikipedia was on a deadline; but it was reverted. I'm putting this here for discussion so the dissenting voices can name a date. Demi T/ C 14:59, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not on a deadline. But remember what wikiwiki means. And remember that the first impressions we give to new users matter, so don't suppose that saying "we're not on a deadline" is carte-blanche to allow rotten articles to fester. - Splash talk 19:36, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
Earlier on this page, someone points out that part of the "Wikipedia is not paper" section is confusing. And it is. I've tried to clarify by pointing out that Wikipedia content is always encyclopedic, but not necessarily exactly what would appear in Britannica or World Book. Right now, the explanation of this section really only has to do with article length and depth, not with subject matter. The second paragraph deals with subject matter is opaque. I tried to make it less so by adding:
Demi T/ C 20:46, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
Personally, I'd kind of like to see that section axed all together and replaced with "Wikipedia is to be an extensive general encyclopedia but nothing else." The Literate Engineer 18:50, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
I've added a parenthetical note to Wikipedia articles are not collections of source material because Wikisource is currently contemplating deleting all mathematical and astronomical tables (including expansions of transcendental numbers, tables of logarithms, ephemerides, and so forth) and all source code. See Wikisource talk:What Wikisource includes for the discussion of this. Uncle G 10:00, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
Yesterday, Zondor added a sentence about the Five pillars in the introductory paragraph of this page. Aquillion just reverted the edit with the comment that "five pillars, while old, is essentially an essay, not a policy page. It's not approprate to cite it authoritatively in a policy page's first paragraph.
I'd like to discuss that decision some more. I understand Aquillion's point that the Five Pillars page does not have an official "policy" tag on it but I think the page does accurately reflect Wikipedia's vision, sustaining values and guiding philosophy. I think it does illuminate the core topic of "What Wikipedia is not" by directing the reader to very well written discussion of what Wikipedia is. For new users who discover WP:NOT first, it's a way to tell that that we are not overwhelmingly negative - that we do have a positive approach. I'm inclined to ask to put the reference back in. Other thoughts? Rossami (talk) 15:12, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm concerned about that final third of a sentence in Section 1.5.2, "and for structured lists to assist with the organisation of articles." I have two concerns about it:
I think it would be useful to discuss both those issues, although I admit that I'm motivated by having seen people use this clause as justification for several lists that I believe should not be a part of the Wikipedia. The Literate Engineer 21:59, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
I added the WP:NOT#Wikipedia is not a public forum or a message board. Seems like a no-brainer, right? Zocky 01:36, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
You're right, it's not in the community section, and actually, I should've been thinking "Not a soapbox" instead of the community section. Actually, what if under "Not a propaganda machine", in 1. Propaganda or advocacy of any kind, we change the wording from
to
Actually, I'm not sure that's any better... But point is, does this need it's own section (1.x), or will a subsection (1.x.y) work for it? The Literate Engineer 01:56, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Surely this is the purpose of the talk page for each article to be effectively used as a public forum. Crippled Sloth 15:41, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
I proposed that the following list of clear exceptions be added to the section asserting that wikipedia is not a democracy so that newcomers are not intentionally mislead into the false allusion that in fact voting isn't how everything meaningful is decided.
On second thought - someone decided to maintain the allusion - patently dreadful really. Benjamin Gatti 05:34, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
You proposed nothing: your only prior edit to this page in weeks had nothing to do with that. What you did was make an unproposed & undiscussed (and thus invalid) edit to a page that lists policies. Now you've proposed it. The Literate Engineer 05:40, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
Any edit to a page that's already policy, as this one is, has to have affirmative consent backing that change before it's made. The Literate Engineer 06:07, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps the Zen of non-democratic policy is a Shangri-la. There is already overwhelming and demonstrated consensus for elections in the choice of Admins, ArbCom, RfD, etc ... Is it here suggested that truth ought to be vetted through the filter of popularity? What is - is. It is policy to use elections to decide almost everything - it is apparently also policy to state that such is not the case. Truth should start at home. Benjamin Gatti 06:54, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
A crude view says, that some of these are generally decided by voting, but it's still dubious if that makes them a democracy. The agreement to abide by a vote is not your right or anyone's right, as such. The test of that is, if it changed tomorrow, you would probably have no recourse to change it back. FT2 ( Talk) 10:59, 30 December 2005 (UTC)