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First American woman to win the Nobel Peace Prize. Influential settlement houser and pacifist; one of the founders of the ACLU. Made the Atlantic Monthly 100 Greatest Americans list; at present is the highest-ranked American woman on that list not on the VA/E. p b p 12:49, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
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A second-tier nuclear physicist, of which we already list many (Becquerel, Bethe, the Curies, Fermi, Oppenheimer, Bohr, Rutherford, Thomson, Chadwick, Teller, Meitner, Hahn) and there are some not listed ( Frédéric and Irène Joliot-Curie, Leo Szilard) who are better known than Cockcroft. We don't list Ernest Walton, the physicist who shared the Nobel Prize with Cockcroft; we do already have another specialist in particle accelerators, Ernest Lawrence.
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I don't think co-inventing BASIC is enough grounds for vitality. We don't list the inventors of programming languages like C++ ( Bjarne Stroustrup or Java ( James Gosling) and we're not listing co-inventors of more important things like the transistor ( Robert Noyce) or Unix ( Ken Thompson).
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A year ago User:Neljack wrote: "The most decorated female Winter Olympian, Marit Bjørgen has won 10 medals, including 6 gold. She has also won 12 World Championship titles (plus seven other medals) and 66 World Cup races, both records." She's now up to 14 World Championship titles and eight other podium finishes, and 75 World Cup races. Scott Hamilton is nowhere close to being as dominant a figure skater as Marit is a cross-country skier, and we have two other figure skaters but no cross-country skiers.
We don't even list cross-country skiing, Bjørgen's main pursuit, I would like to list cross-country skiing itself before listing an individual cross-country skier. She is clearly more notable than Hamilton though, and we had too many figure skaters previously, although we removed some already. Carl wev 18:27, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
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I think the only pre-1900 British stage actor worth listing is Henry Irving. I can't see how Kean's more vital than writers of the time like Mary Shelley, Alfred, Lord Tennyson, Emily Brontë or Robert Browning; or artists like Dante Gabriel Rossetti, John Everett Millais or William Morris; or a politician like Charles Grey, 2nd Earl Grey; and none of these people are on the list even though they all get at least ten times as many page views as Kean.
User:Arnoutf, does this swap work for you? The other pre-Irving stage actor we list is Richard Burbage who I think is similarly non-vital – yes, he acted for Shakespeare, but there's no way he should be listed when far more well-known and important figures of English culture like Henry Purcell or Alexander Pope aren't. Cobblet ( talk) 17:19, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
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We're a bit heavy on French poststructuralists – we already have Michel Foucault and Jacques Derrida, and I don't think Deleuze, who is as notorious for his impenetrable prose as for anything else, has been quite as influential. We also don't list philosophers of the previous generation like Jacques Lacan and Roland Barthes who are also probably a bit more widely studied.
But before we start adding any more 20th-century philosophers (we've added Arendt, McLuhan and Said recently) I think de Tocqueville, author of what is still probably the most influential critique of American society, Democracy in America, should be listed first.
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We discussed it above in the Xi Jinping discussion. p b p 16:30, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
While I'm sympathetic to the argument that the first Latin American pope is kind of a big deal, it would be nice if more people like Neljack would take a look at the list of popes we have and see how Francis compares with them and whether there are other noteworthy omissions, e.g. I've long noticed that Pope Urban II isn't on the list, and calling for the First Crusade seems like a big deal to me, although frankly I didn't have a clue about the Middle Ages before I started helping out here. Cobblet ( talk) 00:21, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
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If we're going to add a recent Chinese politician, the wife of Mao Zedong and leader of the Gang of Four during the Cultural Revolution is an obvious choice. If Hong Xiuquan is vital she is definitely vital.
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Popé is simply a bad choice for a native American rebel – Crazy Horse, Geronimo and Louis Riel all figure more prominently in history. But I also think it's worth thinking about adding a native American woman to the list. Americans may be more familiar with Sacagawea and Pocahontas but the most influential native American woman of all time has to be La Malinche, also known as Doña Marina. She was Hernan Cortes's interpreter (and lover): without her diplomatic skills it's quite possible the Spanish conquest of Mexico wouldn't have succeeded. She's a complex figure in Mexican culture, reviled as a traitor to her own people (her name is synonymous with traitorism) but seen at the same time as the symbolic mother of the mestizo ethnicity.
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By far the most notable rebel leader in the Indian Rebellion of 1857, a pivotal moment in India's history currently not represented by anyone on the list. She isn't any less notable than Diponegoro or Hong Xiuquan.
I believe Rani of Jhansi, Meera, Indira Gandhi and some figures from film and music (of which we now have Madhubala and Lata Mangeshkar) are the only women from India who are vital from an objective standpoint (their actions make them vital, not their gender). Beyond that, you would have to lower your standards just for the sake of balance and diversity. Gizza ( t)( c) 08:58, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
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I'll just quote what I wrote earlier: Rhazes was a polymath especially known for his contributions to medicine. George Sarton and Britannica call him "the greatest physician of the Islamic world" which is a bold claim with Avicenna, Geber and al-Zahrawi to contend with, but perhaps not unjustifiable – for example, he was the first person to note the difference between smallpox and measles.
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The "Northern Sea Route" is the Russian government's term for the part of the waterway traditionally called the Northeast Passage that lies within its territorial waters. The other term remains the most common one in English for the waterway as a whole and most of the content originally in the first article was moved to the second last year.
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This U.S. state is crucial, since it is the first colonial possession established in mainland British America, and eight U.S. presidents were born there, more than any other state.
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Since both were once the capital of the Confederated States of America, they are no doubt vital.
There are 30 US cities in the AP Stylebook (which Wikipedia follows) that do not not require the name of a state to accompany them. There are current 26 US cities listed. Charlotte, North Carolina and San Jose, California are the cities listed as vital but not in that group of 30 while Baltimore, Honolulu, Indianapolis, Milwaukee, Oklahoma City and Salt Lake City are the six unlisted cities that do not require states in their names. 24 cities are shared between both groups. Not advocating any change based on the opinions of one agency (and the Associated Press have a different goal to us) but the differences and similarities between the lists are interesting. Gizza ( t)( c) 09:03, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
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Howard Zinn's magnum opus A People's History of the United States is a bestseller, influencing American and non-American citizens a lot. The book is written from the perspective of the people, rather than the elite. It also emphasizes some unimportant historical facts omitted from many elementary, middle and high school American history textbooks, such as the fact that "elevated" Thomas Woodrow Wilson was a notorious racist, hence a lot of Americans think that if you want to know the truth about the history of the US, buy this book and read it.
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Another important concept, recognized world wide, throughout history, relevant to many types of people in many situations. Relevant to social science, philosophy, religion and psychology.
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Our coverage of sexuality and relationships has become quite detailed. I consider promiscuity to be vital, and of greater importance compared to other articles we include in those sections. We cover the multiple partners from a marriage or official POV with articles like concubinage, bigamy, polygamy, and also infidelity ("cheating" in marriage or non-marriage relationship). But the general idea of casual sex with multiple people regardless of marriage or honesty is not covered. It is of interest to sexuality, sociology and psychology and to religion and ethics, and it does get written and read about and studied. There are articles in the area of sex/relationships that seem equally or less vital, like foreplay, oral sex, moiety, endogamy, exogamy.
I won't suggest to remove any at this time though, as some were fairly recently added successfully by voting, and many I think deserve a place. There are other articles about multiple partners in various contexts that I need to read through to see exactly what they are how widespread and vital they may or may not be, and how much they overlap; articles are Polyandry, Polygyny, Polyamory. Anyone have views on them?
I think I'd more readily support this if we didn't also list casual dating in addition to dating. Cobblet ( talk) 04:18, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
Altered to a swap kept votes the same, as the 3 votes that aren't myself all mention removing casual dating already. Carl wev 17:40, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
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Nordic skiing is essentially an umbrella term for ski jumping and cross-country skiing, two skiing disciplines that have little in common besides the structure of the ski boot. The other two articles are far better developed but we only list ski jumping, so I think this swap is pretty natural.
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We list sports of localized popularity in Western countries ( Aussie rules football, Basque pelota, lacrosse, NASCAR) but not ones in non-Western countries, even though kabaddi and sepak takraw are at least as prominent as the first three sports I mentioned. Kabaddi is the national sport of Bangladesh and also popular in India, and sepak takraw is popular throughout Southeast Asia. Both sports have been on the Asian Games programme since 1990.
Sepak takraw seems slightly more important than Kabaddi, but they are both decent ideas. Which ever number of articles we dedicate to sports, I think actual sports should, most but not all the time, be considered more important than listing many many sportspeople/athletes. This is also good for regional diversity, and the sports are actually quite popular and old, not obscure... For forms of entertainment, I still think Professional wrestling should be in, it has failed twice I believe, but if people can get over the fact it is an obvious over the top form of theatrics, a pretend sport almost, and realize it's a hugely popular, industry and form of entertainment in several nations, and it's history is not the longest but isn't just recent, compare with something like roller skating or skateboarding which were invented within living memory. I really dislike wrestling myself, never watch it, but I think it's important enough to include here. Carl wev 16:53, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
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A pretty widespread form of entertainment these days, and again one with non-Western roots.
I was wondering if we should add Hatha Yoga to the list. We have Yoga but it barely discusses the Western and modern conception of it. The original "Yoga" is important not the most important spirtual idea in Eastern religions either. Its vitality on that basis is borderline compared to a few missing topics in the area. Gizza ( t)( c) 03:58, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
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No doubt it is crucial, since news media often talk about its negative effects on human.
Not as vital as carcinogen? I don't think so.-- RekishiEJ ( talk) 11:47, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
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I'm surprised Cate Blanchett is not on the list, especially when there are less accomplished and/or renowned subjects (great in their own right) listed, like Gérard Depardieu, Marcello Mastroianni, Shintaro Katsu, and even Isabelle Huppert. If necessary, I propose removing any of first three. Lapadite ( talk) 04:54, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
As widely acclaimed as she is, I feel uneasy making Cate Blanchett the only vital Australian in acting and directing. Gizza ( t)( c) 00:05, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
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@ TonyTheTiger:, I would like to support this proposal. We could do with a few more legal people. I think apart from John Marshall, there are no other judges on the list excluding people notable for other reasons. We also have Hugo Grotius who was a jurist. Is Thurgood Marshall the second greatest U.S. Supreme Court justice of all-time? No doubt he is very notable and contributed to the civil rights movement. I still support adding either William Blackstone or the Commentaries on the Laws of England. Gizza ( t)( c) 09:20, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
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The facts that he rescued Saudi Arabia's finances and made significant contribution to the modernization of the country mean that he is as vital as the other two monarchs of Saudi Arabia currently included in the list.
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This brother-and-sister team discovered the first planet (Uranus) not known from antiquity and revealed that the nebulae catalogued by Messier were in fact clusters of stars, both groundbreaking discoveries in the history of modern astronomy.
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They are no less well-known than Lionel Messi or Ronaldo in Taiwan, where soccer is not popular, hence they are as crucial as these two listed persons.
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They are no less famous than Ronaldo, and currently Ronaldo is in the list, hence these two figures should be added to it as well.
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Since both Jewish and Armenian tradition say Noah's Ark rested on Mount Ararat, it is considered to be a holy mountain by Armenians, and it is the central national symbol of Armenia, it should be listed.
I would've thought that Noah's Ark is more vital. That itself may be redundant to Noah. Gizza ( t)( c) 23:42, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
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This mountain is the tallest mountain in Taiwan, and was also the tallest one in the Empire of Japan.
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Removing Sindh was one of the biggest mistakes during the mass cull of regions a few years ago. Central to one of the oldest civilizations in the world with a rich history since, Sindh is far more important to Pakistan than Balochistan in nearly every way imaginable (economy, population, cultural influence, etc.). In fact, Balochistan is the least vital of Pakistan's four provinces. Khyber Pakhtunkhwa is more vital too as it is the unstable Afghan border region known worldwide for being the part of Pakistan most affected by the War on Terror (though the instability dates back to British colonial times if not earlier). Gizza ( t)( c) 04:39, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
I'm fond of geography topics, and I wasn't a fan of the region cull. More sure of the add than the remove. But yes we have to make choices. Balochistan only wins in area which isn't too big a deal, Sindh has almost triple population, almost, and does seem more significant in most things. Carl wev 05:16, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
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There are plenty of jazz standards that are just as popular, and if that's the only measure of a song's vitality then we should be adding stuff like Yesterday (Beatles song) and Amazing Grace.
Why do we need this in addition to The Wizard of Oz? We don't list hit numbers from any other musical or any famous operatic arias at all.
It's described as a ballad, we don't have ballad, is ballad worth thinking about? better than Over the Rainbow I would think. Carl wev 18:09, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
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The rediscovery and codification of the principles of linear perspective had a revolutionary impact on Western art.
I think we should add Filippo Brunelleschi to the list of architects. Cobblet ( talk) 07:08, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
I was thinking of opening this myself, also I was thinking of suggesting the removal of Mercator projection as we list Map projection already but no other single type of map projection (unless you include globe as a projection). Carl wev 17:10, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
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Intertwined subjects. The article on the duo is of comparable quality to the individual articles, and this would save space.
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These are no doubt vital, since Iranian peoples has been playing an important role in the history of the world.
Why are the Kurds important enough to have both ethnicity and region listed? Most countries do not have both the country and the nationality or its most common ethnicity listed. Cobblet ( talk) 23:26, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
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Since both of these two ethno-religious groups have been persecuted by the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, and news media pay attention to them a lot, they are crucial, just like Ebola virus disease.
Ebola was on the list long before the recent news about it spreading in West Africa. As fascinating as they are, Yazidis are not vital. Not every group in the world facing persecution is vital. There are hundreds of them and there's clearly not enough space. Gizza ( t)( c) 23:49, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
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This news magazine is no less influential than Der Spiegel on earth, but currently the former is not in the list, unlike the latter, which is quite strange.
These proposals deal with a part of the list that has not been touched in a long time. Whatever the outcome of these four individuals proposals, thank you for bringing this area to attention Rekishi. The questions we have to ask ourselves are first of all, how many newspapers and magazines are vital and then which ones are vital. What sort of variety do we want in terms of categories, country, circulation, prominence and language? Gizza ( t)( c) 09:09, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
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This paper is quite popular among most senior financial decision makers in the world's largest financial institutions, and was regarded as the most credible publication in reporting financial and economic issues among the Worldwide Professional Investment Community audience, hence it is vital, in fact more worthy of being included in the list than Wall Street Journal.
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This article is vital since this nomenclature is used to describe the scientific names of taxa below the rank of species, e.g. subspecies of a particular animal species.
This article is, in fact, no less vital than domain, since some middle school biology textbooks mention phylum but not domain, and the latter is currently included in the list, which I think should be kept.
This article is in fact no less vital than species, since all middle school biology textbooks stress that there are at least seven taxonomic ranks: kingdom, phylum, class, order, family, genus and species.
This article is in fact no less vital than species, since all middle school biology textbooks stress that there are at least seven taxonomic ranks: kingdom, phylum, class, order, family, genus and species.
This article is in fact no less vital than species, since all middle school biology textbooks stress that there are at least seven taxonomic ranks: kingdom, phylum, class, order, family, genus and species.
This concept is vital in both zoology and botany.
This article is important, since the first part of the scientific name of a particular species is the genus where it belongs to.
This article, though not as vital as species, still deserves to belong to the list since a lot of species have subspecies.
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Present in male humans and many other animals, we have begun to list some glands like thyroid and adrenal gland, we already had testes, breast and ovaries that are sometimes described as glands. The prostate is of interest to biology, sexuality and medicine as prostate cancer is mildly common. I believe it to be more vital than some other biology articles we list, glands or otherwise. Also we have prostate cancer, it seems a little odd to have the cancer of something before the thing itself. (To list both, well I assume no one would remove the articles skin, brain, breast or lung because we list the cancers of them also)
OK, but the other glands we've added are all far more essential for human physiology than the prostate. I suggest better objects of comparison are cervix, cervical cancer, gallbladder and gallstone, none of which are listed. Even pituitary gland isn't listed. Listing prostate cancer (very common in places with high life expectancy) rather than prostate doesn't seem so odd when you consider we list lung and skin cancer before human lung and human skin, or colorectal cancer and anal sex instead of anus/ rectum/ anal canal. Cobblet ( talk) 21:51, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
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No doubt it is vital. It is especially vital to baseball players.
I'm not sure of these, not the worse ideas, but we've recently added arm and Human leg which could obviously have fairly in depth info on knee and elbow, and possibly hip and shoulder too. Pushing it, if one were arguing for hip, shoulder, knee, elbow, one could argue for wrist and ankle, although they seem less vital and are covered by hand and foot. Also although covered by hand finger and or thumb seem reasonable and could be argued for, as could jaw. Neck isn't covered by much that isn't a wide overview, may have a mention in some articles like head but it's not part of the head. Other anatomy articles on my mind were tendon and/or ligament. Carl wev 18:44, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
No doubt it is vital.
No doubt it is vital.
No doubt it is vital.
No doubt it is vital.
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I see no compelling reason to list the 18th best American film when we have seven other silent films on the list and classic 20th-century American novels like Catch-22 and Slaughterhouse-Five are missing.
There may be a few non vital old films listed Carl wev 17:34, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
This may or may not be a good idea. Overtime the geography section has become more locations/regions than topics. What I mean is lists of individual examples of political and physical locations/regions/things on Earth are there, but the articles about the type of thing itself is elsewhere. Nile Mississippi Ganges and Amazon are in Geography but river itself is in Earth science. Same goes for mountains deserts etc. Country, state, city-state, are in social sciences, while individual countries themselves are of course in geography. Looking at basics and urban planning they contain many non place articles like cartography, Remote sensing are more arts or science. Urban planning contains city town slum urban planning, urbanization, urban design and zoning and more. These are not places, but are kind of geography topics, but so are river mountain and country, but we moved them. Urban planning stuff could be moved to social science along with country, city state, do people think this is a good idea? Also why is Central Park the only actual place in urban planning, although not a wildlife thing it could go with the other parks, no? And, we still have continent in geography after the move thread was closed as passed. Was it forgotten or moved back?
Basically do we want non places in geography? if so which ones and why? and which ones are we going to have elsewhere and why? Carl wev 00:04, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
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A Persian polymath who composed all his works in Arabic. Today, he is best known for his expertise in Islamic sciences ( Qur'anic commentary and law) or history.
But my high school world history textbook mentions Tabari but not Al-Kindi and Al-Farabi!-- RekishiEJ ( talk) 03:13, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
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Since he has been described in the English language media as "one of the world's most important Muslim figures", he should be included in the list.
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The former is currently the leader of the Islamic State, and the latter is the leader of Boko Haram. Both presented great threat.
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The greatest scientific mind of medieval Europe and also a distinguished theologian.
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Founder of comparative anatomy and paleontology.
Founder of modern pathology and also made contributions to anthropology and anti-Aryanism.
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The facts that he invented C++ and authored The C++ Programming Language, the first book to describe the C++ programming language, mean that he is as influential as Dennis Ritchie, hence both of them should belong to the list.
Some people might argue that the article can not be a featured one, hence it should not belong to the list. This is nonsense, since there are a lot of interviews with him, thus by utilizing them the article can become featured.
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The fact that he influenced Islamic mathematics to the same extent as Archimedes and Euclid means that all of three are vital, however Apollonius is the only one which is currently not in the list.
I cannot support a straight addition since neither mathematicians nor the Ancient Greeks are underrepresented. I can support this if it is combined with a removal of somebody like Zeuxis or Alexis Clairaut. Cobblet ( talk) 04:51, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
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An article not less vital than History of East Asia.
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Since histories of Burma, Cambodia, East Timor, Malaysia and Singapore are still no included in the list, and to list all of them is impractical due to the fact that there are some other more vital articles. e.g. history of political thought and history of sport not listed and there are not few it's better to add this to the list first.
There are many countries that are fairly important but maybe not enough to list histories of individually, so this obviously fixes it. The region is pretty well defined, is important with a rich and long history that would be worth improving. I'm surprised the article isn't in that many languages, but history of nation articles usually outlanguage history of region, but it's not a good reason alone to avoid it, and maybe it's inclusion could inspire others to write it in other languages, maybe? Carl wev 18:28, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
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This article is definitely vital.
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This ethno-linguistic region is no less vital than Punjab and Kashmir.
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We need better coverage of music outside the European/North American tradition: but the best way to do it is not by listing cliched tunes like Guantanamera or La Cucaracha or The Girl from Ipanema, but by listing the articles on the musical traditions themselves. That is where one can expect to find coverage of genres, styles, composers, performers and instrumentation – in short, everything one expects in an encyclopedic treatment of music. IMO only specific pieces with a substantial impact on the development of music should be included and in this sense Guantanamera is no more influential than Gangnam Style.
I have added a similar proposal below, with a specific genre which is not included among the vital articles. Cambalachero ( talk) 12:21, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
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They are vital concepts, however they are currently not included in the list.
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No doubt a lot of Westerners and non-Westerners have consumed them, hence they are all vital.
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This cooking technique is no less vital than baking, yet it is still not included in the list.
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A sport which is quite popular among many male elemantary school students in the world.
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Most major groups of Austronesian people are represented by their countries and islands, making the main article redundant. The most notable of groups not really represented are the Taiwanese aborigines, who are a minority in their country and similar to other indigenous people we list.
I think we should do something with Bantu peoples and a famous Bantu people, possibly Zulu? Gizza ( t)( c) 07:20, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
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The Amish are the most famous group of simple living people in the world. Ranked 3142 in page traffic. I would personally have the Amish before many American biographies and pop culture topics that nobody has heard of outside the States.
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This ethnicity should be added to the section, since Assyrian people are absolutely descendants of Ancient Assyrian people, who ruled the Assyrian Empire, and during the Umayyads and the Abbasids they contributed hugely to the Arab Islamic Civilization by translating works of Greek philosophers to Syriac and afterwards to Arabic.
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Since Turkic peoples, especially Turkish people play a crucial role in the history of the world, they are absolutely vital.
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While Assamese has some literate history and has official status at the state level, it only has 15 million speakers, which in the context of the highly populated South Asia region, is very little.
To maintain coverage of this part of the world, I propose replacing it with the Ahom Kingdom, a kingdom that lasted for around 600 years and successfully resisted Mughal expansion into the Northeast of India before finally succumbing to the Burmese and British. It was founded by the Ahoms, a Tai people from Southern China. Over time, the kingdom became Indianized and today the area reflects a cultural and, for wants of a better term, racial mix of all these areas.
Is there any reason you didn't pick the Pala Empire? They seem to me the most noteworthy entity in eastern India that we're missing – they represent the last great flourishing of Buddhism in South Asia and were involved in the Tripartite Struggle. Pala art is quite well known and important in the context of Buddhist and Indian art. There were lots of little kingdoms in Southeast Asia and I've never heard of Ahom, while at least I've heard of places like Lan Na, Pegu and Ava. Cobblet ( talk) 06:58, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
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Given the fact that it was the only administrative language in the Ottoman Empire (cf. languages of the Ottoman Empire), it was deeply influenced by both Arabic and Persian, and a lot of literary works were written in it, it is worthy of being included in the list.
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No doubt it's vital.
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A topic which is undoubtedly vital, yet it is still not included in the list.
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Turing machines (originally designed by Alan Turing) have been noted as fundamental to computing. They have been studied and used as a model of computation by nearly all computer scientists. Esquivalience t 01:19, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
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Six car companies is too many if we're not listing historically important companies in other areas such as McDonald's or AT&T, and listing one Japanese car company is enough if we're not listing any other Japanese company/ zaibatsu.
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The former is frequently used by computer system designers and programmers, and some people are quite eager to promote it to replace decimal system. The latter is used by many European and African languages. Maya numerals uses vigesimal as well. However, both hexadecimal and vigesimal are not listed.
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No doubt it is a vital concept.
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It's one of the basics.
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A concept which is useful in number theory.
A concept no less important than resultant.
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An undoubtedly vital inequality.
Really? I think that not all sections of the article are very technical.-- RekishiEJ ( talk) 10:47, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
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Both are crucial concepts in mathematical logic, yet they are still not included in the list.
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A crucial concept in applied mathematics.
Now that Sojourner Truth's been nominated again for removal, this seems as good a time as any to ask a question that's been on my mind a lot lately: how many women should we have on the list? If that's too loaded a question or too hard to answer, how about this: is there a minimum number of women we should be including? Cobblet ( talk) 19:48, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
By my count, there are 191.5 women on the list – I'm counting the Williams sisters as one because only Serena has any business being on the list anyway, and the half is because of Kenneth and Mamie Clark. (I did not count mixed-gender music groups like ABBA.) In other words, women make up less than 10% of the list. Cobblet ( talk) 15:55, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
It would be fascinating to find out how many modern biographies (1800-present) listed are of a particular nationality. I'm too lazy or busy to do this right now. My guess for the top five would be the US, UK, France, Germany and Russia (not sure of the precise order apart from the US and UK leading). Then probably Japan, Spain, Italy, China and India for the top ten though the Netherlands, Switzerland, Sweden and Norway might make it in the top ten too. It is difficult to look at nationality specifically for earlier periods of history though we can still classify people by empire or well-defined parts of continents. Gizza ( t)( c) 13:46, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
I disagree with having a specific quota for men and women. That will just cause controversy as we are forced to eliminate important male articles for less important female articles. Instead, I prefer to take a case by case basis, looking into sections where there could be a few important women, but those women must be equal in importance to the men in that section. Adding women just to reach a quota amounts to a watering-down of the list. I do believe there should be more women on the list, such as J.K. Rowling. I will simply decide based on which woman is nominated. PointsofNoReturn ( talk) 19:08, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
Some people seem surprised that I'm very picky when it comes to proposals adding more people to the list, even though we're still below the quota by 17. I want to show how there are many people who are very significant in their discipline or time period that we haven't yet included, and as an example of that, I've decided to examine how well we cover the Islamic Golden Age. This used to be a weak spot on the list, especially in terms of people who were not political or military leaders, but we've made significant progress, having added Al-Biruni, Abu al-Qasim al-Zahrawi, Geber, Khadija bint Khuwaylid and Aisha over the last couple of years.
Have we done enough? Look at the following people (just intellectuals for now – I'll discuss political and military leaders further down) who aren't on the list, sorted by number of page views over the past 90 days. I don't use page views as an absolute measure of vitality (any two-bit celebrity today will beat these page views easily), but when comparing people belonging to the same culture and historical period, I find it a useful way of seeing at a glance whose importance stands out.
These are all the people I could find with over 9000 page views during the last 90 days. Other people that nearly met this threshold of 100 views/day were Ibn al-Nafis (8981 views), Al-Jahiz (8604 views) and Attar of Nishapur (8381 views). There are still a number of interesting figures whose biographies get even less attention, e.g. Yunus Emre (6934 views), the first great figure in Turkish literature; Abd al-Rahman al-Sufi (4092 views), the first astronomer to record observing the Andromeda galaxy and Large Magellanic Cloud; Imru' al-Qais (3807 views), the most distinguished of pre-Islamic Arab poets; Kamāl ud-Dīn Behzād (3267 views), the best-known of Persian miniature painters and one of the few plausible choices to represent Islamic art, and Al-Khalil ibn Ahmad al-Farahidi (2570 views), pioneer of the study of the Arabic language and compiler of the first Arabic dictionary.
I'll let everyone decide for themselves how many of these figures they deem vital. Personally I'm only strongly inclined to add Rhazes and al-Farabi.
That was intellectual history. While our coverage of Muslim political and military leaders of this period is better, there are still some notable omissions:
I also came across figures like Al-Mansur (10,809 views) and Al-Ma'mun (10,418 views) who I don't think are particularly vital. The Barmakids (3755 views), the great viziers of the Abbasid Caliphate mentioned in the Arabian Nights, seem more interesting to me but the page views would suggest others don't share this opinion. Of the list above, I think the first two definitely make good additions, while Alp Arslan could be swapped with Tughril (3575 views) and Tariq with 'Abd al-Rahman I (6143 views).
So this is how our coverage of the Islamic Golden Age looks: we have many key people but are still missing quite a few, and there is no way we could include every person that has the slightest claim to being vital. I personally think we should consider a net addition of four people and they're all from this one cultural region 800-1400 years ago. Who knows how many people closer to our time we still don't have? Cobblet ( talk) 05:05, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
If I had to pick four, I would choose Rabia, Al-Razi or Al-Kindi (hard to decide), Muhammad of Ghor and Tariq. I'm less certain with the intellectuals than political and military leaders. Muhammad of Ghor is the foremost symbol of early Islam in South Asia and is revered as a hero in Pakistan and to a lesser extent Afghanistan. Assuming there are no other Islamic conquerors of Iberia listed, Tariq should be listed as his conquests lead to the only instance of long-term Muslim rule in Western Europe. I'm guessing he gets low views because Spain and Portugal are no longer Muslim so nobody really reveres him in a patriotic sense but 500 years of history and influence is enough IMO. Gizza ( t)( c) 10:28, 8 August 2015 (UTC)+
Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari is currently not included in the list, despite the fact that he was a Persian polymath who wrote all of his works in Arabic and contributed to tafsir and fiqh a lot.-- RekishiEJ ( talk) 15:28, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
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No doubt User:DaGizza can explain her significance better than I can, but she's a highly popular mystic poet of India. Her biography gets more hits than Tukaram's or Tulsidas's and we list both of those figures as well.
Meera is indeed more vital than Tukaram whose influence and popularity is confined to western India. In addition to her well-known poetry, she became a symbol for pacifism among people like Gandhi and a women's rights icon for Indian feminists later on. In spite of this, Tulsidas is definitely more important than Meera though both writers should be here. The critical reception section in his article can explain his importance better than I can. A Renaissance Homer. He would be in the top ten of most important Indian people of all time. Gizza ( t)( c) 00:21, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
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The fact that she is the first woman and civilian to have flown in space means that she is crucial at this level, just like Yuri Gagarin.
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Frequently awarded Middle East correspondent versus architect of the modern nation of Iraq – Bell's historical impact is far more significant. (Among British journalists William Howard Russell and David Frost seem more important to me than Fisk.)
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Now that someone wants to add Himmler, I suggest that these three persons be added as well, since they are all crucial victimizers of the Great Purge, only less vital than Joseph Stalin.
Of the three, the only one with a case of being vital is Beria. Not every perpetrator of genocide is vital because as with every part of the list, we have to be selective. Gizza ( t)( c) 11:36, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
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An American woman who has been called the most famous 19th-century female inventor.
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Though having only three language editions, this article is still vital since North Africa has unique culture, and it does not consist only of Egypt.
I was thinking about proposing History of Morocco. Africa only has 5 history of country articles compared to 14 for Europe, Morocco seems pretty significant, equally or more so compared to say History of Netherlands or Romania which we have. Thinking about these history of regions articles, we have some like Scandinavia and Middle East, but a time ago many many region articles themselves were removed; regions and history of regions needs some thought, as to which to include and which not to. Carl wev 17:12, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
In general I like the idea of adding regional histories, especially in Africa where most modern national boundaries are just accidents of colonialism. I prefer History of West Africa over History of Nigeria for example, and to a lesser extent I also prefer History of North Africa over History of Morocco. (I have no problem keeping History of Egypt though.) Also I think these regional histories will be of more interest to a general audience than articles on a specific historical entity in the region. Hausa Kingdoms is another article I wouldn't mind swapping for History of West Africa; and despite having suggested adding Ajuran Sultanate in the past I now feel it would've been a better idea to add something like History of East Africa, if such an article existed. (BTW, if I had known about the Kilwa Sultanate back then, I think that too would've been preferable to Ajuran or any of the other Somali sultanates.) But they don't always exist: History of East Africa actually redirects to East Africa#History and History of Southern Africa redirects to History of Africa. Seems kinda weird to only list histories of North and West Africa. Cobblet ( talk) 08:45, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
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This article is more vital than history of North America and history of South America. In fact, the phrase "North America" has various definitions, which is sometimes confusing.
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No doubt it's vital, since it substantially changed Near East, Middle East and North Africa. For instance, Egypt was both Arabized and Islamized due to Muslim conquest of Egypt.
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I think that it is more crucial, at least as crucial as Muslim conquest of Persia, since Arab conquest of Egypt both Arabized and Islamized Egypt, as many Arabs migrated to Egypt and more and more Copts got Islamized after this conquest. Arab conquest of Persia only Islamized Persia and made Persians use Arabic script to write their mother tongue.
This proposal has one of your stronger rationales Rekishi. The Muslim conquest of Persia resulted in a change in the majority's religion but not language while the Muslim conquest of Egypt resulted in a change of the majority's language and religion which is obviously significant. I guess the reason why Persia was added ahead of Egypt was because the former had its empire (the Sasanian) completely overthrown while the Byzantines ruling Egypt at the time suffered large territorial losses but managed to survive. Gizza ( t)( c) 12:55, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
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I believe an article on the disputed region is more important to have than a partially recognized state that controls the region. Western Sahara also gets twice as many page views.
Strong support, mentioned before here but never really been opened. Western Sahara appears to be the name of the region regardless of who controls or claims it. Western Sahara appears in more languages too, and it's what it's named as in all Atlases and maps that name it anything, from what I've seen. It's consistent too as China and Taiwan have two opposing governments which claim the whole of China, but we want to include articles about the places/regions, not parties who claim said regions. We do it with Taiwan, so we should here too. (Although it's a little confusing as some terms are used interchangeable sometimes.) Carl wev 11:02, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Do you realize that it's the same region? Western Sahara refers to the region regardless of who owns, rules or claims it. Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic refers to one party or government that claims and currently controls a fraction of the land and population of Western Sahara since the 1970s. It's like listing separately both Taiwan the land and the Republic of China, the government of Taiwan; which don't even have separate articles on Wikipedia. The Taiwan case has much more population and a longer history too, but we don't list that or any other similar case twice. This proposal is still going to go forward in its current tally count anyway, I just wanted to point out. Carl wev 12:00, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
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Since Punjab redirects to Punjab (region), meaning the toponym Punjab usually refers to the region including Punjab, Pakistan and Punjab, India, history of Punjab not only encompasses history of the region which is now the Pakistani province of Punjab, and though the number of geographical articles in the list still does not exceed the quota there are many articles corresponding to vital cities not included in the list which are more vital than the article about the province, I think that the swap should be made.
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An interesting and vital topic, since Chaoshan's traditionally most popular topolect, Teochew dialect best retains both phonology and lexicon of Old Chinese and Teochew people in the Southeast Asia are more economically powered than other Chinese people. Also there are some people studying Teochew culture.
The fact that Shantou is indeed vital that does not mean Chaoshan should not belong to the list.-- RekishiEJ ( talk) 13:21, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
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The Guggenheim Museum in Bilbao is a tremendous example of modern, contemporary art/architecture. From the article: "The museum was the building most frequently named as one of the most important works completed since 1980 in the 2010 World Architecture Survey among architecture experts." Also ranked one of the 12 Wonders of Spain.
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As suggested above, it may be better to replace that song with a music genre from South America. I first thought about Tango music, but Tango is already included, and may be redundant.
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No doubt it is a crucial philosophical topic.
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The fact that it is the first national church on earth guarantees its vitality.
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These two articles are as vital as baking and grilling, yet unlike the latter two ones, the former two ones are not listed, which sounds quite weird.
Barbecue is a mess, but it apparently inspired this proposal. Grilling and barbecue (according to the barbecue article) refer to different techniques in the US and the UK. Then there's a discussion of different regional styles in the US (where there are strongly held regional opinions about what makes a proper barbecue). And then there's a section on how barbecue encompasses 4-5 different cooking techniques. Roasting might be good to add, but barbecue is very disjointed and doesn't seem to cover a fundamental cooking technique. Plantdrew ( talk) 03:44, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
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Largest conglomerate in the world with significant influence and history.
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Most significant Oil and Gas company in the world.
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No doubt it's vital.
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This plant should be added to the list, since it is vital in some cultures, e.g. in Chinese medicine and cuisine of Kiribati.
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This article is absolutely vital.
Melons are any plants belonging to Cucurbitaceae having edible and fleshy fruit, hence they are not the same.-- RekishiEJ ( talk) 01:53, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
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The tapeworm (which redirects), common parasite, can infect humans, in fact, the article states that all vertebrates can be infected by at least one species of cestoda, and over 1000 species have been described to date. Article present in about 57 languages if I count correct.
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This subclass used to contain all the wingless insects, but nowadays it just contains Thysanura (which includes the silverfish and is listed), Archaeognatha and the extinct Monura; Collembola (listed), Protura and Diplura have been moved elsewhere and are sometimes elevated into their own classes. Apterygota no longer looks like a vital taxon to me.
Frankly I'm not even sure we even need Pterygota, the subclass containing the winged insects. None of the intermediate taxa that go between the class Insecta and orders like Coleoptera, Diptera, Hymenoptera and Lepidoptera look particularly vital to me. Cobblet ( talk) 12:03, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
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It's just a list of anything a medical professional might do in the course of interacting with a patient. Types of medical procedures like diagnosis, therapy, surgery, etc. are vital; the umbrella article is redundant with medicine.
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Both are as vital as photochemistry and environmental chemistry, however currently they are not listed.
Sorry, I proposed the wrong one. I wanted to propose thermochemistry, but nominated the wrong article.-- RekishiEJ ( talk) 11:14, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
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No doubt it is crucial.
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As Wikipedia implements wiki, and wiki is now becoming more and more popular, it should be listed here.-- RekishiEJ ( talk) 04:54, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
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They are as vital as arithmetic mean.
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Both were notable Carmelite reformers and made important contributions to Spanish literature; but given the dearth of female Catholic figures (even though Catholics as a whole are well represented), the presence of another male Spanish saint in Ignatius of Loyola, and the greater overall popularity of St. Teresa (her biography gets about twice as many views and historically there was a short-lived movement to make her the patron saint of Spain), I think she's a slightly better choice for the list.
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The list certainly needs more than one occultists and Crowley is perhaps more important than Helena Blavatsky.-- The Traditionalist ( talk) 16:09, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
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First democratically elected female head of state in Africa, Nobel Peace Prize winner, one of the more accomplished Liberian politicians, The Economist said of her "arguably the best president the country has ever had.". Probably the biggest influence in African politics by a modern female head of state.
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Puduhepa was a Hittite queen and one of the most influential women of the ancient world. She was renowned for her diplomacy skills with Ramesses II of Ancient Egypt and Babylonia. She played a key role in the Egyptian–Hittite peace treaty which is the world's oldest known peace treaty that has survived. The Eleanor Roosevelt of her time. Puduhepa's reign marked an era of stability and peace for the Hittite and neighbouring empires. During her peak she began to influence legal matters and the religion of the Hittites as well.
Thutmose II is one of the weakest pharoahs listed. Nothing really happened during his reign. His father Thutmose I did much more for Egypt by expanding the civilization's reach into Nubia and Canaan while Thutmose II's wife Hatshepsut created many trade networks and building projects (both of them are also listed).
Note that there are no Hittites listed which is surprising. Of the nearby ancient civilizations, the Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, Akkadians/Babylonians, Sumerians and Persians are definitely more vital than the Hittites and deserve more articles but the Hittites should at least have equal coverage to the likes of Dacia, Sheba and the Kingdom of Aksum. Also I support the addition more than the removal and only proposed the removal because we are approaching the quota limit. Gizza ( t)( c) 02:55, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
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No doubt a vital humanitarian, princess and celebrity. Gizza ( t)( c) 23:03, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
I'd be interested in hearing which other people User:Neljack's thinking of. Cobblet ( talk) 00:20, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
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Both are fundamental terms in historiography, yet they are currently not in the list.
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Now that History of North Africa's on the list, this seems unnecessary.
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This article is less vital than Bengal, which is larger but currently not on the list.
This situation is different to Punjab. In the case of Punjab though, I think ideally both Punjab (Pakistan) and Punjab region should be included. Pakistani Punjab is a significant and large province and the region as a whole is significant. None of the modern Indian states of Punjab are vital as they have been divided into smaller entities. Adding Pakistani Punjab and Punjab region is easier than adding Haryana, Himachal Pradesh and the nowadays smaller Punjab (India). This contrasts with Bengal where it is only divided into one Indian state and the nation of Bangladesh. Gizza ( t)( c) 04:21, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
These are vital terms, however they currently are not included.
No, they aren't. For example, Ancient Near East and Russian Far East are frequently heard.-- RekishiEJ ( talk) 10:10, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
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The facts that this city is one of the few sub-tropical cities in Russia, it is Russia's largest resort city and that it hosted the XXII Olympic Winter Games and XI Paralympic Winter Games in 2014, as well as the Russian Formula 1 Grand Prix from 2014 until at least 2020 mean that it is absolutely vital.
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We have Nineteen Eighty-four, but not Animal Farm, which is as influential as the former, which is strange.
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Bongos and claves are just as important percussion instruments in Cuban music and I don't see how any of these are particularly vital. If we need another drum-related topic I'd suggest drum kit; and other types of percussion could use some attention, such as gong, tambourine, thumb piano, rattle (percussion instrument), clapper (musical instrument) (claves are a type of clapper) or the recently removed slit drum which is not really a "drum" at all.
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No doubt it is vital, however it is not included in the list.
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Both a traditional and modern technique.
I prefer adding frying first. Individual frying techniques themselves such as sautéing, deep frying and stir frying are very notable. Gizza ( t)( c) 12:45, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
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Per above.
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Of all frying techniques, these three are the most frequently used.
In my opinion, recently added frying is enough. Many other missing articles from food/cooking and in fact else where seem just as notable if not more. Carl wev 06:08, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
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These foods are no doubt vital, since a lot of Westerners and non-Westerners consume them as either breakfast or snack.
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Largest company in the world, world's largest private employer. Revenue (~US$500 bil) and equity exceeds that of most countries.
This was removed a year ago. I didn't participate in that discussion, but FWIW I'd agree with User:Malerisch that I'd prefer listing Walmart over Sam Walton. Cobblet ( talk) 03:07, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
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We need a festival representing Latin American culture. Other regions have two or three listed festivals so there is no reason not to include it. While Carnival isn't an exclusively Latin festival, it is in the Western Hemisphere where it thrives, especially the Rio Carnival which is the biggest and most famous in the world. Gizza ( t)( c) 09:07, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
Good idea. I've been thinking about Carnival for a while, I'm sure it's been mentioned before in discussions. Carl wev 11:24, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
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There are no South American ethnic groups listed. Every other continent has at least two groups represented. The Quechua are among the most well-known in South America.
This has been hinted upon a few times in the past (I could find it in the archives if you want) but I honestly think the ethnology section needs to become bigger. These articles are precisely the type of article you expect to find in an encyclopedia. Gizza ( t)( c) 07:20, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
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Now that a lot of law enforcement agencies in the world have SWAT teams, e.g. LAPD, and a SWAT team is useful in riot control and violent confrontations with gunmen, this article is vital.
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An interesting, and important thing which deserves to be in the list.
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No doubt it's vital.
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In my opinion, these two articles are as vital as army and land warfare at this level.
It is weird not to included this article while naval warfare is included in the list.
Two article which are no doubt vital.
These two article are no doubt vital.
Request to add combat actions to War and military section. These are all important aspect of warfare and conflict.
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No doubt this is as vital as military operation, since militaries conduct it to test a new strategy, ensure combat readiness and examine problems within them.
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Though no unimportant, this article still should be removed since it is no more vital than, say foreign policy or military policy, and to list all fields of public policy is unrealistic, because there are much more vital articles not included in subpages of WP:VA/E, such as Yuri Andropov, modernization theory, paratrooper and G Men.
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Now that a lot of people use it, and this term has been mentioned many times by news media, it should be crucial.
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Now that a lot of people use microblogging services like Twitter, maybe more often than blogging services like Blogspot, microblogging should be included in the list as well.
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Data (computing), which is listed, is not currently very good but there should be a full section on metadata if it ever becomes a Good or Featured Article. Gizza ( t)( c) 23:37, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
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Now that we've got smartphone as well as mobile phone, is there still a need for this overview article? I feel that even if we want a summary on mobile technology it should cover more than just hardware. Mobile technology or mobile computing seem to me like more appropriate choices, even if both articles are very rudimentary right now (but so is this article I've brought up).
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This inequality is useful, since according to the lede of the article, it is considered one of the most important inequalities in all of mathematics.
Maybe limit of a sequence and limit of a function (the latter proposed for addition by me) should be removed, since though both are crucial in math analysis, the article limit (mathematics) summarizes both, and it is in the Level 4 list as well. However, there should still be more inequalities be added since they are crucial in math, just read the articles and you'll know that. By the way, the math sublist should go more detailed than the physical science sublist, since math is crucial as many disciplines rely on it, especially physics.-- RekishiEJ ( talk) 13:53, 31 December 2015 (UTC) fixed a bit 14:21, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
Though it is rated only Mid-importance by the Math WikiProject, the article is still vital since it is often used as the crucial step in the proof of other inequalities.
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Now that we have mean, arithmetic mean seems redundant. Mean provides a basic definition of the arithmetic mean, and a couple of prompt links to the arithmetic mean article.
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The quota of people should be raised to 2010-2020, that of history should be 685, that of arts to 660, that of society and social sciences to 920, that of biology and health sciences be reduced to 1450, since it is quite unlikely in the near future that there would be 1500 articles in the sublist of biology and health sciences. What do you think?.-- RekishiEJ ( talk) 14:06, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
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This list is currently somewhat narrow in its scope. Not only because it still does not list some vital historical events, but also because it still lacks many important persons. It even does not have any spies or intelligence officers ( Vladimir Putin is the only former intelligence officer currently listed). This is ridiculous, since spies and intelligence officers have played an important role in history of warfare (e.g. Mata Hari and Richard Sorge). So I propose that at least Mata Hari, Felix Dzerzhinsky, Yuri Andropov, Richard Sorge, Mikhail Mukasei, Kim Philby, Melita Norwood, Rudolf Abel, J. Edgar Hoover, Henry Kissinger and George H. W. Bush be included. If adding all figures I proposed would exceed the quota then let's remove some entertainment figures and groups.-- RekishiEJ ( talk) 02:13, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
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First American woman to win the Nobel Peace Prize. Influential settlement houser and pacifist; one of the founders of the ACLU. Made the Atlantic Monthly 100 Greatest Americans list; at present is the highest-ranked American woman on that list not on the VA/E. p b p 12:49, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
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A second-tier nuclear physicist, of which we already list many (Becquerel, Bethe, the Curies, Fermi, Oppenheimer, Bohr, Rutherford, Thomson, Chadwick, Teller, Meitner, Hahn) and there are some not listed ( Frédéric and Irène Joliot-Curie, Leo Szilard) who are better known than Cockcroft. We don't list Ernest Walton, the physicist who shared the Nobel Prize with Cockcroft; we do already have another specialist in particle accelerators, Ernest Lawrence.
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I don't think co-inventing BASIC is enough grounds for vitality. We don't list the inventors of programming languages like C++ ( Bjarne Stroustrup or Java ( James Gosling) and we're not listing co-inventors of more important things like the transistor ( Robert Noyce) or Unix ( Ken Thompson).
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A year ago User:Neljack wrote: "The most decorated female Winter Olympian, Marit Bjørgen has won 10 medals, including 6 gold. She has also won 12 World Championship titles (plus seven other medals) and 66 World Cup races, both records." She's now up to 14 World Championship titles and eight other podium finishes, and 75 World Cup races. Scott Hamilton is nowhere close to being as dominant a figure skater as Marit is a cross-country skier, and we have two other figure skaters but no cross-country skiers.
We don't even list cross-country skiing, Bjørgen's main pursuit, I would like to list cross-country skiing itself before listing an individual cross-country skier. She is clearly more notable than Hamilton though, and we had too many figure skaters previously, although we removed some already. Carl wev 18:27, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
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I think the only pre-1900 British stage actor worth listing is Henry Irving. I can't see how Kean's more vital than writers of the time like Mary Shelley, Alfred, Lord Tennyson, Emily Brontë or Robert Browning; or artists like Dante Gabriel Rossetti, John Everett Millais or William Morris; or a politician like Charles Grey, 2nd Earl Grey; and none of these people are on the list even though they all get at least ten times as many page views as Kean.
User:Arnoutf, does this swap work for you? The other pre-Irving stage actor we list is Richard Burbage who I think is similarly non-vital – yes, he acted for Shakespeare, but there's no way he should be listed when far more well-known and important figures of English culture like Henry Purcell or Alexander Pope aren't. Cobblet ( talk) 17:19, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
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We're a bit heavy on French poststructuralists – we already have Michel Foucault and Jacques Derrida, and I don't think Deleuze, who is as notorious for his impenetrable prose as for anything else, has been quite as influential. We also don't list philosophers of the previous generation like Jacques Lacan and Roland Barthes who are also probably a bit more widely studied.
But before we start adding any more 20th-century philosophers (we've added Arendt, McLuhan and Said recently) I think de Tocqueville, author of what is still probably the most influential critique of American society, Democracy in America, should be listed first.
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We discussed it above in the Xi Jinping discussion. p b p 16:30, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
While I'm sympathetic to the argument that the first Latin American pope is kind of a big deal, it would be nice if more people like Neljack would take a look at the list of popes we have and see how Francis compares with them and whether there are other noteworthy omissions, e.g. I've long noticed that Pope Urban II isn't on the list, and calling for the First Crusade seems like a big deal to me, although frankly I didn't have a clue about the Middle Ages before I started helping out here. Cobblet ( talk) 00:21, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
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If we're going to add a recent Chinese politician, the wife of Mao Zedong and leader of the Gang of Four during the Cultural Revolution is an obvious choice. If Hong Xiuquan is vital she is definitely vital.
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Popé is simply a bad choice for a native American rebel – Crazy Horse, Geronimo and Louis Riel all figure more prominently in history. But I also think it's worth thinking about adding a native American woman to the list. Americans may be more familiar with Sacagawea and Pocahontas but the most influential native American woman of all time has to be La Malinche, also known as Doña Marina. She was Hernan Cortes's interpreter (and lover): without her diplomatic skills it's quite possible the Spanish conquest of Mexico wouldn't have succeeded. She's a complex figure in Mexican culture, reviled as a traitor to her own people (her name is synonymous with traitorism) but seen at the same time as the symbolic mother of the mestizo ethnicity.
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By far the most notable rebel leader in the Indian Rebellion of 1857, a pivotal moment in India's history currently not represented by anyone on the list. She isn't any less notable than Diponegoro or Hong Xiuquan.
I believe Rani of Jhansi, Meera, Indira Gandhi and some figures from film and music (of which we now have Madhubala and Lata Mangeshkar) are the only women from India who are vital from an objective standpoint (their actions make them vital, not their gender). Beyond that, you would have to lower your standards just for the sake of balance and diversity. Gizza ( t)( c) 08:58, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
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I'll just quote what I wrote earlier: Rhazes was a polymath especially known for his contributions to medicine. George Sarton and Britannica call him "the greatest physician of the Islamic world" which is a bold claim with Avicenna, Geber and al-Zahrawi to contend with, but perhaps not unjustifiable – for example, he was the first person to note the difference between smallpox and measles.
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The "Northern Sea Route" is the Russian government's term for the part of the waterway traditionally called the Northeast Passage that lies within its territorial waters. The other term remains the most common one in English for the waterway as a whole and most of the content originally in the first article was moved to the second last year.
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This U.S. state is crucial, since it is the first colonial possession established in mainland British America, and eight U.S. presidents were born there, more than any other state.
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Since both were once the capital of the Confederated States of America, they are no doubt vital.
There are 30 US cities in the AP Stylebook (which Wikipedia follows) that do not not require the name of a state to accompany them. There are current 26 US cities listed. Charlotte, North Carolina and San Jose, California are the cities listed as vital but not in that group of 30 while Baltimore, Honolulu, Indianapolis, Milwaukee, Oklahoma City and Salt Lake City are the six unlisted cities that do not require states in their names. 24 cities are shared between both groups. Not advocating any change based on the opinions of one agency (and the Associated Press have a different goal to us) but the differences and similarities between the lists are interesting. Gizza ( t)( c) 09:03, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
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Howard Zinn's magnum opus A People's History of the United States is a bestseller, influencing American and non-American citizens a lot. The book is written from the perspective of the people, rather than the elite. It also emphasizes some unimportant historical facts omitted from many elementary, middle and high school American history textbooks, such as the fact that "elevated" Thomas Woodrow Wilson was a notorious racist, hence a lot of Americans think that if you want to know the truth about the history of the US, buy this book and read it.
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Another important concept, recognized world wide, throughout history, relevant to many types of people in many situations. Relevant to social science, philosophy, religion and psychology.
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Our coverage of sexuality and relationships has become quite detailed. I consider promiscuity to be vital, and of greater importance compared to other articles we include in those sections. We cover the multiple partners from a marriage or official POV with articles like concubinage, bigamy, polygamy, and also infidelity ("cheating" in marriage or non-marriage relationship). But the general idea of casual sex with multiple people regardless of marriage or honesty is not covered. It is of interest to sexuality, sociology and psychology and to religion and ethics, and it does get written and read about and studied. There are articles in the area of sex/relationships that seem equally or less vital, like foreplay, oral sex, moiety, endogamy, exogamy.
I won't suggest to remove any at this time though, as some were fairly recently added successfully by voting, and many I think deserve a place. There are other articles about multiple partners in various contexts that I need to read through to see exactly what they are how widespread and vital they may or may not be, and how much they overlap; articles are Polyandry, Polygyny, Polyamory. Anyone have views on them?
I think I'd more readily support this if we didn't also list casual dating in addition to dating. Cobblet ( talk) 04:18, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
Altered to a swap kept votes the same, as the 3 votes that aren't myself all mention removing casual dating already. Carl wev 17:40, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
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Nordic skiing is essentially an umbrella term for ski jumping and cross-country skiing, two skiing disciplines that have little in common besides the structure of the ski boot. The other two articles are far better developed but we only list ski jumping, so I think this swap is pretty natural.
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We list sports of localized popularity in Western countries ( Aussie rules football, Basque pelota, lacrosse, NASCAR) but not ones in non-Western countries, even though kabaddi and sepak takraw are at least as prominent as the first three sports I mentioned. Kabaddi is the national sport of Bangladesh and also popular in India, and sepak takraw is popular throughout Southeast Asia. Both sports have been on the Asian Games programme since 1990.
Sepak takraw seems slightly more important than Kabaddi, but they are both decent ideas. Which ever number of articles we dedicate to sports, I think actual sports should, most but not all the time, be considered more important than listing many many sportspeople/athletes. This is also good for regional diversity, and the sports are actually quite popular and old, not obscure... For forms of entertainment, I still think Professional wrestling should be in, it has failed twice I believe, but if people can get over the fact it is an obvious over the top form of theatrics, a pretend sport almost, and realize it's a hugely popular, industry and form of entertainment in several nations, and it's history is not the longest but isn't just recent, compare with something like roller skating or skateboarding which were invented within living memory. I really dislike wrestling myself, never watch it, but I think it's important enough to include here. Carl wev 16:53, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
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A pretty widespread form of entertainment these days, and again one with non-Western roots.
I was wondering if we should add Hatha Yoga to the list. We have Yoga but it barely discusses the Western and modern conception of it. The original "Yoga" is important not the most important spirtual idea in Eastern religions either. Its vitality on that basis is borderline compared to a few missing topics in the area. Gizza ( t)( c) 03:58, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
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No doubt it is crucial, since news media often talk about its negative effects on human.
Not as vital as carcinogen? I don't think so.-- RekishiEJ ( talk) 11:47, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
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I'm surprised Cate Blanchett is not on the list, especially when there are less accomplished and/or renowned subjects (great in their own right) listed, like Gérard Depardieu, Marcello Mastroianni, Shintaro Katsu, and even Isabelle Huppert. If necessary, I propose removing any of first three. Lapadite ( talk) 04:54, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
As widely acclaimed as she is, I feel uneasy making Cate Blanchett the only vital Australian in acting and directing. Gizza ( t)( c) 00:05, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
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@ TonyTheTiger:, I would like to support this proposal. We could do with a few more legal people. I think apart from John Marshall, there are no other judges on the list excluding people notable for other reasons. We also have Hugo Grotius who was a jurist. Is Thurgood Marshall the second greatest U.S. Supreme Court justice of all-time? No doubt he is very notable and contributed to the civil rights movement. I still support adding either William Blackstone or the Commentaries on the Laws of England. Gizza ( t)( c) 09:20, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
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The facts that he rescued Saudi Arabia's finances and made significant contribution to the modernization of the country mean that he is as vital as the other two monarchs of Saudi Arabia currently included in the list.
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This brother-and-sister team discovered the first planet (Uranus) not known from antiquity and revealed that the nebulae catalogued by Messier were in fact clusters of stars, both groundbreaking discoveries in the history of modern astronomy.
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They are no less well-known than Lionel Messi or Ronaldo in Taiwan, where soccer is not popular, hence they are as crucial as these two listed persons.
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They are no less famous than Ronaldo, and currently Ronaldo is in the list, hence these two figures should be added to it as well.
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Since both Jewish and Armenian tradition say Noah's Ark rested on Mount Ararat, it is considered to be a holy mountain by Armenians, and it is the central national symbol of Armenia, it should be listed.
I would've thought that Noah's Ark is more vital. That itself may be redundant to Noah. Gizza ( t)( c) 23:42, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
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This mountain is the tallest mountain in Taiwan, and was also the tallest one in the Empire of Japan.
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Removing Sindh was one of the biggest mistakes during the mass cull of regions a few years ago. Central to one of the oldest civilizations in the world with a rich history since, Sindh is far more important to Pakistan than Balochistan in nearly every way imaginable (economy, population, cultural influence, etc.). In fact, Balochistan is the least vital of Pakistan's four provinces. Khyber Pakhtunkhwa is more vital too as it is the unstable Afghan border region known worldwide for being the part of Pakistan most affected by the War on Terror (though the instability dates back to British colonial times if not earlier). Gizza ( t)( c) 04:39, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
I'm fond of geography topics, and I wasn't a fan of the region cull. More sure of the add than the remove. But yes we have to make choices. Balochistan only wins in area which isn't too big a deal, Sindh has almost triple population, almost, and does seem more significant in most things. Carl wev 05:16, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
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There are plenty of jazz standards that are just as popular, and if that's the only measure of a song's vitality then we should be adding stuff like Yesterday (Beatles song) and Amazing Grace.
Why do we need this in addition to The Wizard of Oz? We don't list hit numbers from any other musical or any famous operatic arias at all.
It's described as a ballad, we don't have ballad, is ballad worth thinking about? better than Over the Rainbow I would think. Carl wev 18:09, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
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The rediscovery and codification of the principles of linear perspective had a revolutionary impact on Western art.
I think we should add Filippo Brunelleschi to the list of architects. Cobblet ( talk) 07:08, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
I was thinking of opening this myself, also I was thinking of suggesting the removal of Mercator projection as we list Map projection already but no other single type of map projection (unless you include globe as a projection). Carl wev 17:10, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
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Intertwined subjects. The article on the duo is of comparable quality to the individual articles, and this would save space.
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These are no doubt vital, since Iranian peoples has been playing an important role in the history of the world.
Why are the Kurds important enough to have both ethnicity and region listed? Most countries do not have both the country and the nationality or its most common ethnicity listed. Cobblet ( talk) 23:26, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
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Since both of these two ethno-religious groups have been persecuted by the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, and news media pay attention to them a lot, they are crucial, just like Ebola virus disease.
Ebola was on the list long before the recent news about it spreading in West Africa. As fascinating as they are, Yazidis are not vital. Not every group in the world facing persecution is vital. There are hundreds of them and there's clearly not enough space. Gizza ( t)( c) 23:49, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
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This news magazine is no less influential than Der Spiegel on earth, but currently the former is not in the list, unlike the latter, which is quite strange.
These proposals deal with a part of the list that has not been touched in a long time. Whatever the outcome of these four individuals proposals, thank you for bringing this area to attention Rekishi. The questions we have to ask ourselves are first of all, how many newspapers and magazines are vital and then which ones are vital. What sort of variety do we want in terms of categories, country, circulation, prominence and language? Gizza ( t)( c) 09:09, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
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This paper is quite popular among most senior financial decision makers in the world's largest financial institutions, and was regarded as the most credible publication in reporting financial and economic issues among the Worldwide Professional Investment Community audience, hence it is vital, in fact more worthy of being included in the list than Wall Street Journal.
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This article is vital since this nomenclature is used to describe the scientific names of taxa below the rank of species, e.g. subspecies of a particular animal species.
This article is, in fact, no less vital than domain, since some middle school biology textbooks mention phylum but not domain, and the latter is currently included in the list, which I think should be kept.
This article is in fact no less vital than species, since all middle school biology textbooks stress that there are at least seven taxonomic ranks: kingdom, phylum, class, order, family, genus and species.
This article is in fact no less vital than species, since all middle school biology textbooks stress that there are at least seven taxonomic ranks: kingdom, phylum, class, order, family, genus and species.
This article is in fact no less vital than species, since all middle school biology textbooks stress that there are at least seven taxonomic ranks: kingdom, phylum, class, order, family, genus and species.
This concept is vital in both zoology and botany.
This article is important, since the first part of the scientific name of a particular species is the genus where it belongs to.
This article, though not as vital as species, still deserves to belong to the list since a lot of species have subspecies.
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Present in male humans and many other animals, we have begun to list some glands like thyroid and adrenal gland, we already had testes, breast and ovaries that are sometimes described as glands. The prostate is of interest to biology, sexuality and medicine as prostate cancer is mildly common. I believe it to be more vital than some other biology articles we list, glands or otherwise. Also we have prostate cancer, it seems a little odd to have the cancer of something before the thing itself. (To list both, well I assume no one would remove the articles skin, brain, breast or lung because we list the cancers of them also)
OK, but the other glands we've added are all far more essential for human physiology than the prostate. I suggest better objects of comparison are cervix, cervical cancer, gallbladder and gallstone, none of which are listed. Even pituitary gland isn't listed. Listing prostate cancer (very common in places with high life expectancy) rather than prostate doesn't seem so odd when you consider we list lung and skin cancer before human lung and human skin, or colorectal cancer and anal sex instead of anus/ rectum/ anal canal. Cobblet ( talk) 21:51, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
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No doubt it is vital. It is especially vital to baseball players.
I'm not sure of these, not the worse ideas, but we've recently added arm and Human leg which could obviously have fairly in depth info on knee and elbow, and possibly hip and shoulder too. Pushing it, if one were arguing for hip, shoulder, knee, elbow, one could argue for wrist and ankle, although they seem less vital and are covered by hand and foot. Also although covered by hand finger and or thumb seem reasonable and could be argued for, as could jaw. Neck isn't covered by much that isn't a wide overview, may have a mention in some articles like head but it's not part of the head. Other anatomy articles on my mind were tendon and/or ligament. Carl wev 18:44, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
No doubt it is vital.
No doubt it is vital.
No doubt it is vital.
No doubt it is vital.
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I see no compelling reason to list the 18th best American film when we have seven other silent films on the list and classic 20th-century American novels like Catch-22 and Slaughterhouse-Five are missing.
There may be a few non vital old films listed Carl wev 17:34, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
This may or may not be a good idea. Overtime the geography section has become more locations/regions than topics. What I mean is lists of individual examples of political and physical locations/regions/things on Earth are there, but the articles about the type of thing itself is elsewhere. Nile Mississippi Ganges and Amazon are in Geography but river itself is in Earth science. Same goes for mountains deserts etc. Country, state, city-state, are in social sciences, while individual countries themselves are of course in geography. Looking at basics and urban planning they contain many non place articles like cartography, Remote sensing are more arts or science. Urban planning contains city town slum urban planning, urbanization, urban design and zoning and more. These are not places, but are kind of geography topics, but so are river mountain and country, but we moved them. Urban planning stuff could be moved to social science along with country, city state, do people think this is a good idea? Also why is Central Park the only actual place in urban planning, although not a wildlife thing it could go with the other parks, no? And, we still have continent in geography after the move thread was closed as passed. Was it forgotten or moved back?
Basically do we want non places in geography? if so which ones and why? and which ones are we going to have elsewhere and why? Carl wev 00:04, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
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A Persian polymath who composed all his works in Arabic. Today, he is best known for his expertise in Islamic sciences ( Qur'anic commentary and law) or history.
But my high school world history textbook mentions Tabari but not Al-Kindi and Al-Farabi!-- RekishiEJ ( talk) 03:13, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
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Since he has been described in the English language media as "one of the world's most important Muslim figures", he should be included in the list.
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The former is currently the leader of the Islamic State, and the latter is the leader of Boko Haram. Both presented great threat.
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The greatest scientific mind of medieval Europe and also a distinguished theologian.
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Founder of comparative anatomy and paleontology.
Founder of modern pathology and also made contributions to anthropology and anti-Aryanism.
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The facts that he invented C++ and authored The C++ Programming Language, the first book to describe the C++ programming language, mean that he is as influential as Dennis Ritchie, hence both of them should belong to the list.
Some people might argue that the article can not be a featured one, hence it should not belong to the list. This is nonsense, since there are a lot of interviews with him, thus by utilizing them the article can become featured.
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The fact that he influenced Islamic mathematics to the same extent as Archimedes and Euclid means that all of three are vital, however Apollonius is the only one which is currently not in the list.
I cannot support a straight addition since neither mathematicians nor the Ancient Greeks are underrepresented. I can support this if it is combined with a removal of somebody like Zeuxis or Alexis Clairaut. Cobblet ( talk) 04:51, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
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An article not less vital than History of East Asia.
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Since histories of Burma, Cambodia, East Timor, Malaysia and Singapore are still no included in the list, and to list all of them is impractical due to the fact that there are some other more vital articles. e.g. history of political thought and history of sport not listed and there are not few it's better to add this to the list first.
There are many countries that are fairly important but maybe not enough to list histories of individually, so this obviously fixes it. The region is pretty well defined, is important with a rich and long history that would be worth improving. I'm surprised the article isn't in that many languages, but history of nation articles usually outlanguage history of region, but it's not a good reason alone to avoid it, and maybe it's inclusion could inspire others to write it in other languages, maybe? Carl wev 18:28, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
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This article is definitely vital.
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This ethno-linguistic region is no less vital than Punjab and Kashmir.
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We need better coverage of music outside the European/North American tradition: but the best way to do it is not by listing cliched tunes like Guantanamera or La Cucaracha or The Girl from Ipanema, but by listing the articles on the musical traditions themselves. That is where one can expect to find coverage of genres, styles, composers, performers and instrumentation – in short, everything one expects in an encyclopedic treatment of music. IMO only specific pieces with a substantial impact on the development of music should be included and in this sense Guantanamera is no more influential than Gangnam Style.
I have added a similar proposal below, with a specific genre which is not included among the vital articles. Cambalachero ( talk) 12:21, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
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They are vital concepts, however they are currently not included in the list.
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No doubt a lot of Westerners and non-Westerners have consumed them, hence they are all vital.
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This cooking technique is no less vital than baking, yet it is still not included in the list.
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A sport which is quite popular among many male elemantary school students in the world.
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Most major groups of Austronesian people are represented by their countries and islands, making the main article redundant. The most notable of groups not really represented are the Taiwanese aborigines, who are a minority in their country and similar to other indigenous people we list.
I think we should do something with Bantu peoples and a famous Bantu people, possibly Zulu? Gizza ( t)( c) 07:20, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
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The Amish are the most famous group of simple living people in the world. Ranked 3142 in page traffic. I would personally have the Amish before many American biographies and pop culture topics that nobody has heard of outside the States.
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This ethnicity should be added to the section, since Assyrian people are absolutely descendants of Ancient Assyrian people, who ruled the Assyrian Empire, and during the Umayyads and the Abbasids they contributed hugely to the Arab Islamic Civilization by translating works of Greek philosophers to Syriac and afterwards to Arabic.
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Since Turkic peoples, especially Turkish people play a crucial role in the history of the world, they are absolutely vital.
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While Assamese has some literate history and has official status at the state level, it only has 15 million speakers, which in the context of the highly populated South Asia region, is very little.
To maintain coverage of this part of the world, I propose replacing it with the Ahom Kingdom, a kingdom that lasted for around 600 years and successfully resisted Mughal expansion into the Northeast of India before finally succumbing to the Burmese and British. It was founded by the Ahoms, a Tai people from Southern China. Over time, the kingdom became Indianized and today the area reflects a cultural and, for wants of a better term, racial mix of all these areas.
Is there any reason you didn't pick the Pala Empire? They seem to me the most noteworthy entity in eastern India that we're missing – they represent the last great flourishing of Buddhism in South Asia and were involved in the Tripartite Struggle. Pala art is quite well known and important in the context of Buddhist and Indian art. There were lots of little kingdoms in Southeast Asia and I've never heard of Ahom, while at least I've heard of places like Lan Na, Pegu and Ava. Cobblet ( talk) 06:58, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
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Given the fact that it was the only administrative language in the Ottoman Empire (cf. languages of the Ottoman Empire), it was deeply influenced by both Arabic and Persian, and a lot of literary works were written in it, it is worthy of being included in the list.
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No doubt it's vital.
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A topic which is undoubtedly vital, yet it is still not included in the list.
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Turing machines (originally designed by Alan Turing) have been noted as fundamental to computing. They have been studied and used as a model of computation by nearly all computer scientists. Esquivalience t 01:19, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
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Six car companies is too many if we're not listing historically important companies in other areas such as McDonald's or AT&T, and listing one Japanese car company is enough if we're not listing any other Japanese company/ zaibatsu.
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The former is frequently used by computer system designers and programmers, and some people are quite eager to promote it to replace decimal system. The latter is used by many European and African languages. Maya numerals uses vigesimal as well. However, both hexadecimal and vigesimal are not listed.
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No doubt it is a vital concept.
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It's one of the basics.
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A concept which is useful in number theory.
A concept no less important than resultant.
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An undoubtedly vital inequality.
Really? I think that not all sections of the article are very technical.-- RekishiEJ ( talk) 10:47, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
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Both are crucial concepts in mathematical logic, yet they are still not included in the list.
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A crucial concept in applied mathematics.
Now that Sojourner Truth's been nominated again for removal, this seems as good a time as any to ask a question that's been on my mind a lot lately: how many women should we have on the list? If that's too loaded a question or too hard to answer, how about this: is there a minimum number of women we should be including? Cobblet ( talk) 19:48, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
By my count, there are 191.5 women on the list – I'm counting the Williams sisters as one because only Serena has any business being on the list anyway, and the half is because of Kenneth and Mamie Clark. (I did not count mixed-gender music groups like ABBA.) In other words, women make up less than 10% of the list. Cobblet ( talk) 15:55, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
It would be fascinating to find out how many modern biographies (1800-present) listed are of a particular nationality. I'm too lazy or busy to do this right now. My guess for the top five would be the US, UK, France, Germany and Russia (not sure of the precise order apart from the US and UK leading). Then probably Japan, Spain, Italy, China and India for the top ten though the Netherlands, Switzerland, Sweden and Norway might make it in the top ten too. It is difficult to look at nationality specifically for earlier periods of history though we can still classify people by empire or well-defined parts of continents. Gizza ( t)( c) 13:46, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
I disagree with having a specific quota for men and women. That will just cause controversy as we are forced to eliminate important male articles for less important female articles. Instead, I prefer to take a case by case basis, looking into sections where there could be a few important women, but those women must be equal in importance to the men in that section. Adding women just to reach a quota amounts to a watering-down of the list. I do believe there should be more women on the list, such as J.K. Rowling. I will simply decide based on which woman is nominated. PointsofNoReturn ( talk) 19:08, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
Some people seem surprised that I'm very picky when it comes to proposals adding more people to the list, even though we're still below the quota by 17. I want to show how there are many people who are very significant in their discipline or time period that we haven't yet included, and as an example of that, I've decided to examine how well we cover the Islamic Golden Age. This used to be a weak spot on the list, especially in terms of people who were not political or military leaders, but we've made significant progress, having added Al-Biruni, Abu al-Qasim al-Zahrawi, Geber, Khadija bint Khuwaylid and Aisha over the last couple of years.
Have we done enough? Look at the following people (just intellectuals for now – I'll discuss political and military leaders further down) who aren't on the list, sorted by number of page views over the past 90 days. I don't use page views as an absolute measure of vitality (any two-bit celebrity today will beat these page views easily), but when comparing people belonging to the same culture and historical period, I find it a useful way of seeing at a glance whose importance stands out.
These are all the people I could find with over 9000 page views during the last 90 days. Other people that nearly met this threshold of 100 views/day were Ibn al-Nafis (8981 views), Al-Jahiz (8604 views) and Attar of Nishapur (8381 views). There are still a number of interesting figures whose biographies get even less attention, e.g. Yunus Emre (6934 views), the first great figure in Turkish literature; Abd al-Rahman al-Sufi (4092 views), the first astronomer to record observing the Andromeda galaxy and Large Magellanic Cloud; Imru' al-Qais (3807 views), the most distinguished of pre-Islamic Arab poets; Kamāl ud-Dīn Behzād (3267 views), the best-known of Persian miniature painters and one of the few plausible choices to represent Islamic art, and Al-Khalil ibn Ahmad al-Farahidi (2570 views), pioneer of the study of the Arabic language and compiler of the first Arabic dictionary.
I'll let everyone decide for themselves how many of these figures they deem vital. Personally I'm only strongly inclined to add Rhazes and al-Farabi.
That was intellectual history. While our coverage of Muslim political and military leaders of this period is better, there are still some notable omissions:
I also came across figures like Al-Mansur (10,809 views) and Al-Ma'mun (10,418 views) who I don't think are particularly vital. The Barmakids (3755 views), the great viziers of the Abbasid Caliphate mentioned in the Arabian Nights, seem more interesting to me but the page views would suggest others don't share this opinion. Of the list above, I think the first two definitely make good additions, while Alp Arslan could be swapped with Tughril (3575 views) and Tariq with 'Abd al-Rahman I (6143 views).
So this is how our coverage of the Islamic Golden Age looks: we have many key people but are still missing quite a few, and there is no way we could include every person that has the slightest claim to being vital. I personally think we should consider a net addition of four people and they're all from this one cultural region 800-1400 years ago. Who knows how many people closer to our time we still don't have? Cobblet ( talk) 05:05, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
If I had to pick four, I would choose Rabia, Al-Razi or Al-Kindi (hard to decide), Muhammad of Ghor and Tariq. I'm less certain with the intellectuals than political and military leaders. Muhammad of Ghor is the foremost symbol of early Islam in South Asia and is revered as a hero in Pakistan and to a lesser extent Afghanistan. Assuming there are no other Islamic conquerors of Iberia listed, Tariq should be listed as his conquests lead to the only instance of long-term Muslim rule in Western Europe. I'm guessing he gets low views because Spain and Portugal are no longer Muslim so nobody really reveres him in a patriotic sense but 500 years of history and influence is enough IMO. Gizza ( t)( c) 10:28, 8 August 2015 (UTC)+
Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari is currently not included in the list, despite the fact that he was a Persian polymath who wrote all of his works in Arabic and contributed to tafsir and fiqh a lot.-- RekishiEJ ( talk) 15:28, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
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No doubt User:DaGizza can explain her significance better than I can, but she's a highly popular mystic poet of India. Her biography gets more hits than Tukaram's or Tulsidas's and we list both of those figures as well.
Meera is indeed more vital than Tukaram whose influence and popularity is confined to western India. In addition to her well-known poetry, she became a symbol for pacifism among people like Gandhi and a women's rights icon for Indian feminists later on. In spite of this, Tulsidas is definitely more important than Meera though both writers should be here. The critical reception section in his article can explain his importance better than I can. A Renaissance Homer. He would be in the top ten of most important Indian people of all time. Gizza ( t)( c) 00:21, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
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The fact that she is the first woman and civilian to have flown in space means that she is crucial at this level, just like Yuri Gagarin.
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Frequently awarded Middle East correspondent versus architect of the modern nation of Iraq – Bell's historical impact is far more significant. (Among British journalists William Howard Russell and David Frost seem more important to me than Fisk.)
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Now that someone wants to add Himmler, I suggest that these three persons be added as well, since they are all crucial victimizers of the Great Purge, only less vital than Joseph Stalin.
Of the three, the only one with a case of being vital is Beria. Not every perpetrator of genocide is vital because as with every part of the list, we have to be selective. Gizza ( t)( c) 11:36, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
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An American woman who has been called the most famous 19th-century female inventor.
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Though having only three language editions, this article is still vital since North Africa has unique culture, and it does not consist only of Egypt.
I was thinking about proposing History of Morocco. Africa only has 5 history of country articles compared to 14 for Europe, Morocco seems pretty significant, equally or more so compared to say History of Netherlands or Romania which we have. Thinking about these history of regions articles, we have some like Scandinavia and Middle East, but a time ago many many region articles themselves were removed; regions and history of regions needs some thought, as to which to include and which not to. Carl wev 17:12, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
In general I like the idea of adding regional histories, especially in Africa where most modern national boundaries are just accidents of colonialism. I prefer History of West Africa over History of Nigeria for example, and to a lesser extent I also prefer History of North Africa over History of Morocco. (I have no problem keeping History of Egypt though.) Also I think these regional histories will be of more interest to a general audience than articles on a specific historical entity in the region. Hausa Kingdoms is another article I wouldn't mind swapping for History of West Africa; and despite having suggested adding Ajuran Sultanate in the past I now feel it would've been a better idea to add something like History of East Africa, if such an article existed. (BTW, if I had known about the Kilwa Sultanate back then, I think that too would've been preferable to Ajuran or any of the other Somali sultanates.) But they don't always exist: History of East Africa actually redirects to East Africa#History and History of Southern Africa redirects to History of Africa. Seems kinda weird to only list histories of North and West Africa. Cobblet ( talk) 08:45, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
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This article is more vital than history of North America and history of South America. In fact, the phrase "North America" has various definitions, which is sometimes confusing.
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No doubt it's vital, since it substantially changed Near East, Middle East and North Africa. For instance, Egypt was both Arabized and Islamized due to Muslim conquest of Egypt.
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I think that it is more crucial, at least as crucial as Muslim conquest of Persia, since Arab conquest of Egypt both Arabized and Islamized Egypt, as many Arabs migrated to Egypt and more and more Copts got Islamized after this conquest. Arab conquest of Persia only Islamized Persia and made Persians use Arabic script to write their mother tongue.
This proposal has one of your stronger rationales Rekishi. The Muslim conquest of Persia resulted in a change in the majority's religion but not language while the Muslim conquest of Egypt resulted in a change of the majority's language and religion which is obviously significant. I guess the reason why Persia was added ahead of Egypt was because the former had its empire (the Sasanian) completely overthrown while the Byzantines ruling Egypt at the time suffered large territorial losses but managed to survive. Gizza ( t)( c) 12:55, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
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I believe an article on the disputed region is more important to have than a partially recognized state that controls the region. Western Sahara also gets twice as many page views.
Strong support, mentioned before here but never really been opened. Western Sahara appears to be the name of the region regardless of who controls or claims it. Western Sahara appears in more languages too, and it's what it's named as in all Atlases and maps that name it anything, from what I've seen. It's consistent too as China and Taiwan have two opposing governments which claim the whole of China, but we want to include articles about the places/regions, not parties who claim said regions. We do it with Taiwan, so we should here too. (Although it's a little confusing as some terms are used interchangeable sometimes.) Carl wev 11:02, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Do you realize that it's the same region? Western Sahara refers to the region regardless of who owns, rules or claims it. Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic refers to one party or government that claims and currently controls a fraction of the land and population of Western Sahara since the 1970s. It's like listing separately both Taiwan the land and the Republic of China, the government of Taiwan; which don't even have separate articles on Wikipedia. The Taiwan case has much more population and a longer history too, but we don't list that or any other similar case twice. This proposal is still going to go forward in its current tally count anyway, I just wanted to point out. Carl wev 12:00, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
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Since Punjab redirects to Punjab (region), meaning the toponym Punjab usually refers to the region including Punjab, Pakistan and Punjab, India, history of Punjab not only encompasses history of the region which is now the Pakistani province of Punjab, and though the number of geographical articles in the list still does not exceed the quota there are many articles corresponding to vital cities not included in the list which are more vital than the article about the province, I think that the swap should be made.
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An interesting and vital topic, since Chaoshan's traditionally most popular topolect, Teochew dialect best retains both phonology and lexicon of Old Chinese and Teochew people in the Southeast Asia are more economically powered than other Chinese people. Also there are some people studying Teochew culture.
The fact that Shantou is indeed vital that does not mean Chaoshan should not belong to the list.-- RekishiEJ ( talk) 13:21, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
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The Guggenheim Museum in Bilbao is a tremendous example of modern, contemporary art/architecture. From the article: "The museum was the building most frequently named as one of the most important works completed since 1980 in the 2010 World Architecture Survey among architecture experts." Also ranked one of the 12 Wonders of Spain.
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As suggested above, it may be better to replace that song with a music genre from South America. I first thought about Tango music, but Tango is already included, and may be redundant.
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No doubt it is a crucial philosophical topic.
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The fact that it is the first national church on earth guarantees its vitality.
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These two articles are as vital as baking and grilling, yet unlike the latter two ones, the former two ones are not listed, which sounds quite weird.
Barbecue is a mess, but it apparently inspired this proposal. Grilling and barbecue (according to the barbecue article) refer to different techniques in the US and the UK. Then there's a discussion of different regional styles in the US (where there are strongly held regional opinions about what makes a proper barbecue). And then there's a section on how barbecue encompasses 4-5 different cooking techniques. Roasting might be good to add, but barbecue is very disjointed and doesn't seem to cover a fundamental cooking technique. Plantdrew ( talk) 03:44, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
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Largest conglomerate in the world with significant influence and history.
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Most significant Oil and Gas company in the world.
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No doubt it's vital.
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This plant should be added to the list, since it is vital in some cultures, e.g. in Chinese medicine and cuisine of Kiribati.
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This article is absolutely vital.
Melons are any plants belonging to Cucurbitaceae having edible and fleshy fruit, hence they are not the same.-- RekishiEJ ( talk) 01:53, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
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The tapeworm (which redirects), common parasite, can infect humans, in fact, the article states that all vertebrates can be infected by at least one species of cestoda, and over 1000 species have been described to date. Article present in about 57 languages if I count correct.
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This subclass used to contain all the wingless insects, but nowadays it just contains Thysanura (which includes the silverfish and is listed), Archaeognatha and the extinct Monura; Collembola (listed), Protura and Diplura have been moved elsewhere and are sometimes elevated into their own classes. Apterygota no longer looks like a vital taxon to me.
Frankly I'm not even sure we even need Pterygota, the subclass containing the winged insects. None of the intermediate taxa that go between the class Insecta and orders like Coleoptera, Diptera, Hymenoptera and Lepidoptera look particularly vital to me. Cobblet ( talk) 12:03, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
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It's just a list of anything a medical professional might do in the course of interacting with a patient. Types of medical procedures like diagnosis, therapy, surgery, etc. are vital; the umbrella article is redundant with medicine.
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Both are as vital as photochemistry and environmental chemistry, however currently they are not listed.
Sorry, I proposed the wrong one. I wanted to propose thermochemistry, but nominated the wrong article.-- RekishiEJ ( talk) 11:14, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
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No doubt it is crucial.
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As Wikipedia implements wiki, and wiki is now becoming more and more popular, it should be listed here.-- RekishiEJ ( talk) 04:54, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
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They are as vital as arithmetic mean.
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Both were notable Carmelite reformers and made important contributions to Spanish literature; but given the dearth of female Catholic figures (even though Catholics as a whole are well represented), the presence of another male Spanish saint in Ignatius of Loyola, and the greater overall popularity of St. Teresa (her biography gets about twice as many views and historically there was a short-lived movement to make her the patron saint of Spain), I think she's a slightly better choice for the list.
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The list certainly needs more than one occultists and Crowley is perhaps more important than Helena Blavatsky.-- The Traditionalist ( talk) 16:09, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
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First democratically elected female head of state in Africa, Nobel Peace Prize winner, one of the more accomplished Liberian politicians, The Economist said of her "arguably the best president the country has ever had.". Probably the biggest influence in African politics by a modern female head of state.
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Puduhepa was a Hittite queen and one of the most influential women of the ancient world. She was renowned for her diplomacy skills with Ramesses II of Ancient Egypt and Babylonia. She played a key role in the Egyptian–Hittite peace treaty which is the world's oldest known peace treaty that has survived. The Eleanor Roosevelt of her time. Puduhepa's reign marked an era of stability and peace for the Hittite and neighbouring empires. During her peak she began to influence legal matters and the religion of the Hittites as well.
Thutmose II is one of the weakest pharoahs listed. Nothing really happened during his reign. His father Thutmose I did much more for Egypt by expanding the civilization's reach into Nubia and Canaan while Thutmose II's wife Hatshepsut created many trade networks and building projects (both of them are also listed).
Note that there are no Hittites listed which is surprising. Of the nearby ancient civilizations, the Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, Akkadians/Babylonians, Sumerians and Persians are definitely more vital than the Hittites and deserve more articles but the Hittites should at least have equal coverage to the likes of Dacia, Sheba and the Kingdom of Aksum. Also I support the addition more than the removal and only proposed the removal because we are approaching the quota limit. Gizza ( t)( c) 02:55, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
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No doubt a vital humanitarian, princess and celebrity. Gizza ( t)( c) 23:03, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
I'd be interested in hearing which other people User:Neljack's thinking of. Cobblet ( talk) 00:20, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
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Both are fundamental terms in historiography, yet they are currently not in the list.
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Now that History of North Africa's on the list, this seems unnecessary.
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This article is less vital than Bengal, which is larger but currently not on the list.
This situation is different to Punjab. In the case of Punjab though, I think ideally both Punjab (Pakistan) and Punjab region should be included. Pakistani Punjab is a significant and large province and the region as a whole is significant. None of the modern Indian states of Punjab are vital as they have been divided into smaller entities. Adding Pakistani Punjab and Punjab region is easier than adding Haryana, Himachal Pradesh and the nowadays smaller Punjab (India). This contrasts with Bengal where it is only divided into one Indian state and the nation of Bangladesh. Gizza ( t)( c) 04:21, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
These are vital terms, however they currently are not included.
No, they aren't. For example, Ancient Near East and Russian Far East are frequently heard.-- RekishiEJ ( talk) 10:10, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
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The facts that this city is one of the few sub-tropical cities in Russia, it is Russia's largest resort city and that it hosted the XXII Olympic Winter Games and XI Paralympic Winter Games in 2014, as well as the Russian Formula 1 Grand Prix from 2014 until at least 2020 mean that it is absolutely vital.
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We have Nineteen Eighty-four, but not Animal Farm, which is as influential as the former, which is strange.
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Bongos and claves are just as important percussion instruments in Cuban music and I don't see how any of these are particularly vital. If we need another drum-related topic I'd suggest drum kit; and other types of percussion could use some attention, such as gong, tambourine, thumb piano, rattle (percussion instrument), clapper (musical instrument) (claves are a type of clapper) or the recently removed slit drum which is not really a "drum" at all.
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No doubt it is vital, however it is not included in the list.
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Both a traditional and modern technique.
I prefer adding frying first. Individual frying techniques themselves such as sautéing, deep frying and stir frying are very notable. Gizza ( t)( c) 12:45, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
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Per above.
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Of all frying techniques, these three are the most frequently used.
In my opinion, recently added frying is enough. Many other missing articles from food/cooking and in fact else where seem just as notable if not more. Carl wev 06:08, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
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These foods are no doubt vital, since a lot of Westerners and non-Westerners consume them as either breakfast or snack.
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Largest company in the world, world's largest private employer. Revenue (~US$500 bil) and equity exceeds that of most countries.
This was removed a year ago. I didn't participate in that discussion, but FWIW I'd agree with User:Malerisch that I'd prefer listing Walmart over Sam Walton. Cobblet ( talk) 03:07, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
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We need a festival representing Latin American culture. Other regions have two or three listed festivals so there is no reason not to include it. While Carnival isn't an exclusively Latin festival, it is in the Western Hemisphere where it thrives, especially the Rio Carnival which is the biggest and most famous in the world. Gizza ( t)( c) 09:07, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
Good idea. I've been thinking about Carnival for a while, I'm sure it's been mentioned before in discussions. Carl wev 11:24, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
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There are no South American ethnic groups listed. Every other continent has at least two groups represented. The Quechua are among the most well-known in South America.
This has been hinted upon a few times in the past (I could find it in the archives if you want) but I honestly think the ethnology section needs to become bigger. These articles are precisely the type of article you expect to find in an encyclopedia. Gizza ( t)( c) 07:20, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
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Now that a lot of law enforcement agencies in the world have SWAT teams, e.g. LAPD, and a SWAT team is useful in riot control and violent confrontations with gunmen, this article is vital.
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An interesting, and important thing which deserves to be in the list.
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No doubt it's vital.
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In my opinion, these two articles are as vital as army and land warfare at this level.
It is weird not to included this article while naval warfare is included in the list.
Two article which are no doubt vital.
These two article are no doubt vital.
Request to add combat actions to War and military section. These are all important aspect of warfare and conflict.
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No doubt this is as vital as military operation, since militaries conduct it to test a new strategy, ensure combat readiness and examine problems within them.
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Though no unimportant, this article still should be removed since it is no more vital than, say foreign policy or military policy, and to list all fields of public policy is unrealistic, because there are much more vital articles not included in subpages of WP:VA/E, such as Yuri Andropov, modernization theory, paratrooper and G Men.
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Now that a lot of people use it, and this term has been mentioned many times by news media, it should be crucial.
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Now that a lot of people use microblogging services like Twitter, maybe more often than blogging services like Blogspot, microblogging should be included in the list as well.
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Data (computing), which is listed, is not currently very good but there should be a full section on metadata if it ever becomes a Good or Featured Article. Gizza ( t)( c) 23:37, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
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Now that we've got smartphone as well as mobile phone, is there still a need for this overview article? I feel that even if we want a summary on mobile technology it should cover more than just hardware. Mobile technology or mobile computing seem to me like more appropriate choices, even if both articles are very rudimentary right now (but so is this article I've brought up).
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This inequality is useful, since according to the lede of the article, it is considered one of the most important inequalities in all of mathematics.
Maybe limit of a sequence and limit of a function (the latter proposed for addition by me) should be removed, since though both are crucial in math analysis, the article limit (mathematics) summarizes both, and it is in the Level 4 list as well. However, there should still be more inequalities be added since they are crucial in math, just read the articles and you'll know that. By the way, the math sublist should go more detailed than the physical science sublist, since math is crucial as many disciplines rely on it, especially physics.-- RekishiEJ ( talk) 13:53, 31 December 2015 (UTC) fixed a bit 14:21, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
Though it is rated only Mid-importance by the Math WikiProject, the article is still vital since it is often used as the crucial step in the proof of other inequalities.
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Now that we have mean, arithmetic mean seems redundant. Mean provides a basic definition of the arithmetic mean, and a couple of prompt links to the arithmetic mean article.
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The quota of people should be raised to 2010-2020, that of history should be 685, that of arts to 660, that of society and social sciences to 920, that of biology and health sciences be reduced to 1450, since it is quite unlikely in the near future that there would be 1500 articles in the sublist of biology and health sciences. What do you think?.-- RekishiEJ ( talk) 14:06, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
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This list is currently somewhat narrow in its scope. Not only because it still does not list some vital historical events, but also because it still lacks many important persons. It even does not have any spies or intelligence officers ( Vladimir Putin is the only former intelligence officer currently listed). This is ridiculous, since spies and intelligence officers have played an important role in history of warfare (e.g. Mata Hari and Richard Sorge). So I propose that at least Mata Hari, Felix Dzerzhinsky, Yuri Andropov, Richard Sorge, Mikhail Mukasei, Kim Philby, Melita Norwood, Rudolf Abel, J. Edgar Hoover, Henry Kissinger and George H. W. Bush be included. If adding all figures I proposed would exceed the quota then let's remove some entertainment figures and groups.-- RekishiEJ ( talk) 02:13, 28 December 2015 (UTC)