This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | Archive 18 |
Wikipedia is not merely an objective database but also a resource. People want to learn about a piece of fictional media, and so they often either look it up straight on Wikipedia, or Google it (which often has Wikipedia as a top result). Having spoilers so clearly in front can and will alienate readers who just want a light summary and not every explicit detail. All they will learn is that Wikipedia is not a good resource when it comes to fictional material, and avoid it in the future.
Don't misconstrue what I'm saying as the opposite extreme. I'm not saying that Wikipedia should be out to promote these fictional works. You can still provide a factual summary without spoiling the reader, except when absolutely necessary (as in the case of noteworthy controversies). It's not difficult to accomplish.
Also, many of these fiction-based articles not only spoil the reader, but go out of their way to do so. Certain writers make it a priority, even when it's unnecessary. The standard often changes from article to article. Some keep their spoilers in the episode summaries (which are either a separate section or another article entirely), some put them right out in front. The former is more reader-friendly than the latter.
67.168.247.216 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 07:24, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
"In fact, the reason websites that cover TV and film placed the word "spoiler" in an articles' headline is to attract readers."Now that I would like to see a source for, reliable (preferable) or otherwise. Please note that I am not being funny or trying to make trouble. I am currently researching historic strategies for marketing of films and tv shows and I haven't seen any articles that suggest what your statement does. Thanks. Koala Tea Of Mercy (KTOM's Articulations & Invigilations) 08:20, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
I'm just popping in here... I had posted on the talk page some time ago... unhappy to see there was a vote that I didn't know about, I would have expressed my opinion again. I can't quite understand exactly what the outcome of this was... what is the current policy? Daleylife ( talk) 10:22, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
@ Flyer22 Reborn:I just want to to reply to Flyer22. I have confirmed my email address. And in regards to my editing, I edited for years before knowing I could make an actual account. Sometimes I have forgotten to log in, but I will try to stay logged in from now on. I appreciate you at least thought to try to alert me to the vote. I have yet to really read what's been discussed as of late. I will add my thoughts if applicable, after I read everything. Daleylife ( talk) 05:08, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
This function should be readded, but only for movies (and some specific, very popular books). In my opinion, we should have a spoiler label that has a timed occurrence, such as it is only present for six months after the release, and then it is removed automatically. Please send feedback. UNSC Luke 1021 ( talk) 15:14, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
Welp, I'm late. Very, very late.
Shocked to see so much opposition to the change in the guideline. I'll be frank, I did not read this entire mountain of opinion--- but I clearly saw more people auguring that spoilers on wikipedia should stay and some even think the guideline needs to be stronger.
So, I will just share my opinion as best I can. @ Cyphoidbomb: mentions in their opposition that a film student might want spoilers galore on film articles for research. (Basically.) I was a film student and here's what I say: Yes, sometimes I do want as much info on a film or television show that I can find. I want to read on wikipedia every little detail on the plot, production, etc.
But, here's the other side of the coin... the reason I began talking on this page in the first place.
Say I have just discovered a new television show. It's currently on its 5th season, but the previous seasons are available to stream. Now say that I've watched Season 1. I now come to wikipedia because I love this show. I want to read more about it. I go to the wiki page for this show. Now, in my opinion, I feel that main pages of shows should be vague. Don't spoil too much. However, if I click on SEASON ONE that takes me to a new page, it is within this page that spoilers can be every other word--- I have watched season one, so I know all that happens. And I might want to know some behind the scenes stuff. Any twists about this season would be here.
However--- say a character is in season one and then is absent until season five. The fact this character appears again SHOULD NOT be in "the season one" article, because it spoils a season I have yet to see. The interesting throwback to a character that reappears would be better suited on the main page for the fifth season. Now, of course there normally is that chart showing the actors and the seasons they appear in. So THAT is a little iffy, I do admit. But those charts don't give any character detail, so while you might know a character returns, you don't know why. the DETAIL of the character's return would be on the main page for the season in which they reappear.
Basically, spoilers, I feel, should be contained within their respective season main pages. The general page for a show should be vague, certainly not spoiling a character's true identity in the cast section or changing a female's last name if she marries a character at the end of a season. I gave the real life example that the /en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desperate_Housewives cast section originally revealed (SPOILER) that Susan Mayer eventually marries Mike Delfino, so the actress was credited as "Susan Delfino" in the main cast section, which spoils Susan's story arc.
If for any reason a spoiler must be included in the main page of a television show, I feel a cover feature should be implemented, where the reader must hover over it with its mouse or click it if on mobile.) My point is that a reader could be on a page just for a basic summary or they could in fact be a student wanting to know the whole enchilada. To account for both these cases, the "hover over spoiler" is a good work around. I also feel thisshould be the case for film articles, as there usually isn't more "in depth pages" for films. Those are just one huge article. This "hover over" spoilers also is a good thing to do for books.
But with films, like the television shows, I do feel character descriptions should still be vague. They can hint to something more, but the cast section is the 1st or second thing you see, and a reader very well could just want basic information. I do admit that film articles might be trickier to "solve" when it comes to spoilers, but those that supported the change of the guideline seemed to indicate that having an editor use discretion when editing makes perfect sense to me. Away from having spoilers hidden that you must uncover, I think a general "spoilers ahead" or something to that effect could be noted in articles for books, films, and television. Just give a little warning since you aren't quite sure who's reading.
Lastly, why I feel this is a situation that needs to be addressed is when you search for a film or television show, wikipedia is almost always a top search result. Editors MUST find a balance between the casual "wanting to know just a bit" reader and the "film student wanting every detail" reader. Daleylife ( talk) 06:13, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
Spoilers are fine in actual articles, e.g. episode synopsis pages. They are unacceptable in List of Episode summaries, which are used by people before they've seen some or all of the episodes. This policy must be reversed on at least these pages. Abatie ( talk) 16:48, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
@ Abatie: - first, let me say, sorry that this is not a warm welcome but as stated above, there are tens of pages of people discussing this over at least ten years. It's...tired and contentious. I think we would all ask you to consider the following:
These are things to carefully consider, and that we have, for years. Though additional input is always welcome, I would suggest that you do a little digging into why things are the way they are. (And maybe everyone else could see that this person has made 10 edits and be a little less bite-y) Panyd The muffin is not subtle 22:08, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
Whack! You've been whacked with a wet trout. Don't take this too seriously. Someone just wants to let you know that you did something silly. |
This has been discussed to death, if you want to start a long and acrimonious debate culminating in no change in the guideline then feel free, but be aware that is all you will be doing. Guy ( Help!) 22:34, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
I have seen so many perennial proposals on changing the guideline and so many discussions on spoilers and guidelines. Can we have an {{ FAQ}} banner and construct it, so we can likely reduce a number of endless discussions about them? -- George Ho ( talk) 07:17, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
I wanted to get some opinions on a disagreement here: Too many spoilers?.
American Gods (TV series) is an actively produced TV series, which has aired one episode (on March 30) as of this post. The show is based on the novel American Gods, which was published in 2001. Contributors to the TV series wiki page have added significant character and story revelations, and other contributors have cried foul on the spoilers. The additions are sourced from journalists discussing the novel with the assumption that the TV series will be entirely faithful to the published work. My issue (and question for you) is - at what point is it fair to make that assumption?
The showrunners have been upfront about their intention to significantly change some characters (The Technical Boy), add new ones (Vulcan) and the pilot episode added two entirely original scenes (Audrey in the cemetery, Shadow being attacked toward the end). Is my assumption - that the show and the novel should be treated as independent entities - legitimate? Am I right in thinking it's inappropriate to include a character's "true identity" in the Cast List (revealed late in the novel, and a significant twist), when the character hasn't even appeared on the show yet? (Some of the actors have been very candid about their character's various identities but the actor in this particular instance has been tight-lipped and evasive in every interview, if intention is a factor here.) Thanks. The Red Queen ( talk) 16:14, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
Currently the page contains the sentence:
I edited this to add the word "possible" in front of the word "spoilers", but was reverted by here. I think the word is needed because of the fact that certainly not every plot detail will be considered a spoiler by every reader. This fact underlies one of the main problems with trying to make spoilers a consideration. That is, what constitutes a spoiler is, like beauty, in the eye of the beholder, and cannot usefully be defined. Paul August ☎ 01:21, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
I agree that the addition of "possible" seems unnecessary. If the section doesn't contain spoilers, then it's likely underdeveloped. "Spoilers" doesn't meant that every item is a spoiler, nor does it mean that every person is "spoiled" by having read it. It means that there are elements that identify key bits of information. That's it. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 18:56, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
I would just like to bring up a few quick points / suggestions.
Firstly the category section at the bottom of the page. Is it necessary for this section to include information that is in turn a spoiler? I know this may be subjective but the category section seems like a fairly minor part of Wikipedia and not so crucial that information that is spoiler related could be avoided.
Secondly I would agree with previous comments that I think there should be a spoiler warning in specific sections of articles. Specifically when it come to video games (and perhaps other media) the vast majority of games with comprehensive Wikipedia articles have their own separate Wiki pages that cover details of the game in far more depth than Wikipedia. These Wiki pages almost always contain spoiler warnings. The majority of video game articles I have seen do not go so depth that I would regard spoiler related information to be necessary to the description.
Another option I've thought of is why not use (apologies I do not know the specific name for it) blocked out text? As in where what is written is blocked out and then when highlighted the words are revealed. I think this could be a useful option when it comes to spoiler related content where both parties win. The content is still there, so Wikipedia can stay comprehensive, people can see the information if they so wish, but also most will be able to avoid being accidentally spoiled.
Comments, thoughts, suggestions etc welcomed. Thanks for your time. Helper201 ( talk) 07:27, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
RfC on Potential Spoilers: "Should information revealed to the viewer throughout the series (such as major plot points and reveals) be contained in the Cast and characters section of the article?" -- Radiphus 16:50, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
I was wondering whether there has ever been a poll of readers (not editors) of Wikipedia's articles on fiction, not just regular readers but including those coming from Google, on whether they would prefer spoiler warnings. I cannot find one in the archives of this discussion page. If a significant majority of readers would prefer there to be spoiler warnings, would editors agree to include them, since presumably an encyclopedia is written for its readers and not for its editors? Highflyer Hank ( talk) 13:25, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
I'm not saying that the policy on spoilers should be changed, but the text is currently worded too strongly, presents contentious opinions as facts, and contains factual falsehoods:
"There was no strong basis to exclude disclaimers for potential spoilers from the " No disclaimers in articles" guideline when many other disclaimers—such as warnings about offensive images or content and medical and legal disclaimers—would be of greater benefit to the reader."
This is highly subjective and unsupported by evidence. No surveys or other indications are cited to support the claim that warnings about offensive images would be of greater benefit to readers than warnings about spoilers, for instance, and I suspect that for many people, reading spoilers has more long-lasting negative implications than viewing an offensive image (both annoying or shocking them in the moment and affecting the enjoyment of several hours of consuming a fictional work later, rather than only the former).
"# No other academic, scholarly, or other professional publications that describe or analyze works of fiction, such as other encyclopedias, include disclaimers about spoilers when discussing said works."
This is factually false, since other language Wikipedias include spoiler warnings (e.g. the Dutch one). This wording therefore has to be changed for sure.
"# Sections that frequently contain spoiler warnings—such as plot summaries, episode lists, character descriptions, etc.—were already clearly named to indicate that they contain plot details. Therefore, further disclaimers would be redundant and unnecessary."
This is again too strongly worded and incorrect. A section heading of "episode list" does not 'clearly' indicate that it contains crucial details about the ending of these episodes, for instance. Better would be "were already named to indicate that they may contain plot details".
"Labeling a plot detail as a spoiler would require editors to use their own subjective opinions to interpret the significance of a plot detail and its likelihood of altering the enjoyment of the work of fiction. This would be a violation of Wikipedia's core policies of no original research, verifiability, and neutral point of view."
The process of writing an encyclopaedia always involves interpretation, and not every form of interpretation is biased or a violation of a prohibition on original research. Take for instance the article "Liberalism", which states that liberalism "became popular among philosophers and economists in the Western world" during the Age of Enlightenment. What is the threshold for 'popularity'? Even if a source says that it became popular, this is still a subjective statement, since other sources may only consider something to be 'popular' when the majority of a group likes it, etc.
Furthermore, it would be possible in certain cases to cite sources to establish that a certain plot detail is widely considered significant and is in fact likely to alter the enjoyment of a work of fiction. One conclusive example is this: https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/jul/23/books.harrypotter . This alone makes the statement that labeling a plot detail as a spoiler would always be a violation of Wikipedia's policies on verifiability factually wrong.
Could we please change the wording to make it more accurate? I tried boldly to do this but it was reverted by someone who considered it 'weasel wording'. However, the guideline against weasel wording is aimed at claims such as 'some people think X', which should be replaced by 'person Y thinks X' with a citation, not by making the claim seem even less contentious by presenting controversial opinions as facts by writing 'X is true' without a citation.
Highflyer Hank ( talk) 14:31, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
I have no idea how true that is, but it was an interesting comment. Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 10:24, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
Given the mess over the film over "Once Upon a Time in Hollywood" (see [1]) I would propose something like: However, despite the lack of spoiler notices, content that would be considered as a spoiler must remain verifiable, meaning that the work in question should have been reasonably published to the public so that its plot summary can be verified by anyone reading or viewing the work (see WP:WAF). For examples, in film, a single showing at a film festival would not be sufficiently public, while a limited "sneak peak" at multiple theaters prior to wide release would be. Wording is only suggested but this would be at the end of the lede. -- Masem ( t) 19:04, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
I think the only connection of the issue of a fabricated plot summary to the spoiler guideline is that people used WP:SPOILER to justify re-including the wrong plot summary. WP:SPOILER should not be used to keep unverifiable material in the article. A possible addition:
Any comments on that? — Kusma ( t· c) 08:51, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
editors should make sure that an encyclopedic purpose is being served and content policies are followed.Anomie ⚔ 13:15, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | Archive 18 |
Wikipedia is not merely an objective database but also a resource. People want to learn about a piece of fictional media, and so they often either look it up straight on Wikipedia, or Google it (which often has Wikipedia as a top result). Having spoilers so clearly in front can and will alienate readers who just want a light summary and not every explicit detail. All they will learn is that Wikipedia is not a good resource when it comes to fictional material, and avoid it in the future.
Don't misconstrue what I'm saying as the opposite extreme. I'm not saying that Wikipedia should be out to promote these fictional works. You can still provide a factual summary without spoiling the reader, except when absolutely necessary (as in the case of noteworthy controversies). It's not difficult to accomplish.
Also, many of these fiction-based articles not only spoil the reader, but go out of their way to do so. Certain writers make it a priority, even when it's unnecessary. The standard often changes from article to article. Some keep their spoilers in the episode summaries (which are either a separate section or another article entirely), some put them right out in front. The former is more reader-friendly than the latter.
67.168.247.216 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 07:24, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
"In fact, the reason websites that cover TV and film placed the word "spoiler" in an articles' headline is to attract readers."Now that I would like to see a source for, reliable (preferable) or otherwise. Please note that I am not being funny or trying to make trouble. I am currently researching historic strategies for marketing of films and tv shows and I haven't seen any articles that suggest what your statement does. Thanks. Koala Tea Of Mercy (KTOM's Articulations & Invigilations) 08:20, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
I'm just popping in here... I had posted on the talk page some time ago... unhappy to see there was a vote that I didn't know about, I would have expressed my opinion again. I can't quite understand exactly what the outcome of this was... what is the current policy? Daleylife ( talk) 10:22, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
@ Flyer22 Reborn:I just want to to reply to Flyer22. I have confirmed my email address. And in regards to my editing, I edited for years before knowing I could make an actual account. Sometimes I have forgotten to log in, but I will try to stay logged in from now on. I appreciate you at least thought to try to alert me to the vote. I have yet to really read what's been discussed as of late. I will add my thoughts if applicable, after I read everything. Daleylife ( talk) 05:08, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
This function should be readded, but only for movies (and some specific, very popular books). In my opinion, we should have a spoiler label that has a timed occurrence, such as it is only present for six months after the release, and then it is removed automatically. Please send feedback. UNSC Luke 1021 ( talk) 15:14, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
Welp, I'm late. Very, very late.
Shocked to see so much opposition to the change in the guideline. I'll be frank, I did not read this entire mountain of opinion--- but I clearly saw more people auguring that spoilers on wikipedia should stay and some even think the guideline needs to be stronger.
So, I will just share my opinion as best I can. @ Cyphoidbomb: mentions in their opposition that a film student might want spoilers galore on film articles for research. (Basically.) I was a film student and here's what I say: Yes, sometimes I do want as much info on a film or television show that I can find. I want to read on wikipedia every little detail on the plot, production, etc.
But, here's the other side of the coin... the reason I began talking on this page in the first place.
Say I have just discovered a new television show. It's currently on its 5th season, but the previous seasons are available to stream. Now say that I've watched Season 1. I now come to wikipedia because I love this show. I want to read more about it. I go to the wiki page for this show. Now, in my opinion, I feel that main pages of shows should be vague. Don't spoil too much. However, if I click on SEASON ONE that takes me to a new page, it is within this page that spoilers can be every other word--- I have watched season one, so I know all that happens. And I might want to know some behind the scenes stuff. Any twists about this season would be here.
However--- say a character is in season one and then is absent until season five. The fact this character appears again SHOULD NOT be in "the season one" article, because it spoils a season I have yet to see. The interesting throwback to a character that reappears would be better suited on the main page for the fifth season. Now, of course there normally is that chart showing the actors and the seasons they appear in. So THAT is a little iffy, I do admit. But those charts don't give any character detail, so while you might know a character returns, you don't know why. the DETAIL of the character's return would be on the main page for the season in which they reappear.
Basically, spoilers, I feel, should be contained within their respective season main pages. The general page for a show should be vague, certainly not spoiling a character's true identity in the cast section or changing a female's last name if she marries a character at the end of a season. I gave the real life example that the /en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desperate_Housewives cast section originally revealed (SPOILER) that Susan Mayer eventually marries Mike Delfino, so the actress was credited as "Susan Delfino" in the main cast section, which spoils Susan's story arc.
If for any reason a spoiler must be included in the main page of a television show, I feel a cover feature should be implemented, where the reader must hover over it with its mouse or click it if on mobile.) My point is that a reader could be on a page just for a basic summary or they could in fact be a student wanting to know the whole enchilada. To account for both these cases, the "hover over spoiler" is a good work around. I also feel thisshould be the case for film articles, as there usually isn't more "in depth pages" for films. Those are just one huge article. This "hover over" spoilers also is a good thing to do for books.
But with films, like the television shows, I do feel character descriptions should still be vague. They can hint to something more, but the cast section is the 1st or second thing you see, and a reader very well could just want basic information. I do admit that film articles might be trickier to "solve" when it comes to spoilers, but those that supported the change of the guideline seemed to indicate that having an editor use discretion when editing makes perfect sense to me. Away from having spoilers hidden that you must uncover, I think a general "spoilers ahead" or something to that effect could be noted in articles for books, films, and television. Just give a little warning since you aren't quite sure who's reading.
Lastly, why I feel this is a situation that needs to be addressed is when you search for a film or television show, wikipedia is almost always a top search result. Editors MUST find a balance between the casual "wanting to know just a bit" reader and the "film student wanting every detail" reader. Daleylife ( talk) 06:13, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
Spoilers are fine in actual articles, e.g. episode synopsis pages. They are unacceptable in List of Episode summaries, which are used by people before they've seen some or all of the episodes. This policy must be reversed on at least these pages. Abatie ( talk) 16:48, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
@ Abatie: - first, let me say, sorry that this is not a warm welcome but as stated above, there are tens of pages of people discussing this over at least ten years. It's...tired and contentious. I think we would all ask you to consider the following:
These are things to carefully consider, and that we have, for years. Though additional input is always welcome, I would suggest that you do a little digging into why things are the way they are. (And maybe everyone else could see that this person has made 10 edits and be a little less bite-y) Panyd The muffin is not subtle 22:08, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
Whack! You've been whacked with a wet trout. Don't take this too seriously. Someone just wants to let you know that you did something silly. |
This has been discussed to death, if you want to start a long and acrimonious debate culminating in no change in the guideline then feel free, but be aware that is all you will be doing. Guy ( Help!) 22:34, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
I have seen so many perennial proposals on changing the guideline and so many discussions on spoilers and guidelines. Can we have an {{ FAQ}} banner and construct it, so we can likely reduce a number of endless discussions about them? -- George Ho ( talk) 07:17, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
I wanted to get some opinions on a disagreement here: Too many spoilers?.
American Gods (TV series) is an actively produced TV series, which has aired one episode (on March 30) as of this post. The show is based on the novel American Gods, which was published in 2001. Contributors to the TV series wiki page have added significant character and story revelations, and other contributors have cried foul on the spoilers. The additions are sourced from journalists discussing the novel with the assumption that the TV series will be entirely faithful to the published work. My issue (and question for you) is - at what point is it fair to make that assumption?
The showrunners have been upfront about their intention to significantly change some characters (The Technical Boy), add new ones (Vulcan) and the pilot episode added two entirely original scenes (Audrey in the cemetery, Shadow being attacked toward the end). Is my assumption - that the show and the novel should be treated as independent entities - legitimate? Am I right in thinking it's inappropriate to include a character's "true identity" in the Cast List (revealed late in the novel, and a significant twist), when the character hasn't even appeared on the show yet? (Some of the actors have been very candid about their character's various identities but the actor in this particular instance has been tight-lipped and evasive in every interview, if intention is a factor here.) Thanks. The Red Queen ( talk) 16:14, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
Currently the page contains the sentence:
I edited this to add the word "possible" in front of the word "spoilers", but was reverted by here. I think the word is needed because of the fact that certainly not every plot detail will be considered a spoiler by every reader. This fact underlies one of the main problems with trying to make spoilers a consideration. That is, what constitutes a spoiler is, like beauty, in the eye of the beholder, and cannot usefully be defined. Paul August ☎ 01:21, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
I agree that the addition of "possible" seems unnecessary. If the section doesn't contain spoilers, then it's likely underdeveloped. "Spoilers" doesn't meant that every item is a spoiler, nor does it mean that every person is "spoiled" by having read it. It means that there are elements that identify key bits of information. That's it. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 18:56, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
I would just like to bring up a few quick points / suggestions.
Firstly the category section at the bottom of the page. Is it necessary for this section to include information that is in turn a spoiler? I know this may be subjective but the category section seems like a fairly minor part of Wikipedia and not so crucial that information that is spoiler related could be avoided.
Secondly I would agree with previous comments that I think there should be a spoiler warning in specific sections of articles. Specifically when it come to video games (and perhaps other media) the vast majority of games with comprehensive Wikipedia articles have their own separate Wiki pages that cover details of the game in far more depth than Wikipedia. These Wiki pages almost always contain spoiler warnings. The majority of video game articles I have seen do not go so depth that I would regard spoiler related information to be necessary to the description.
Another option I've thought of is why not use (apologies I do not know the specific name for it) blocked out text? As in where what is written is blocked out and then when highlighted the words are revealed. I think this could be a useful option when it comes to spoiler related content where both parties win. The content is still there, so Wikipedia can stay comprehensive, people can see the information if they so wish, but also most will be able to avoid being accidentally spoiled.
Comments, thoughts, suggestions etc welcomed. Thanks for your time. Helper201 ( talk) 07:27, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
RfC on Potential Spoilers: "Should information revealed to the viewer throughout the series (such as major plot points and reveals) be contained in the Cast and characters section of the article?" -- Radiphus 16:50, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
I was wondering whether there has ever been a poll of readers (not editors) of Wikipedia's articles on fiction, not just regular readers but including those coming from Google, on whether they would prefer spoiler warnings. I cannot find one in the archives of this discussion page. If a significant majority of readers would prefer there to be spoiler warnings, would editors agree to include them, since presumably an encyclopedia is written for its readers and not for its editors? Highflyer Hank ( talk) 13:25, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
I'm not saying that the policy on spoilers should be changed, but the text is currently worded too strongly, presents contentious opinions as facts, and contains factual falsehoods:
"There was no strong basis to exclude disclaimers for potential spoilers from the " No disclaimers in articles" guideline when many other disclaimers—such as warnings about offensive images or content and medical and legal disclaimers—would be of greater benefit to the reader."
This is highly subjective and unsupported by evidence. No surveys or other indications are cited to support the claim that warnings about offensive images would be of greater benefit to readers than warnings about spoilers, for instance, and I suspect that for many people, reading spoilers has more long-lasting negative implications than viewing an offensive image (both annoying or shocking them in the moment and affecting the enjoyment of several hours of consuming a fictional work later, rather than only the former).
"# No other academic, scholarly, or other professional publications that describe or analyze works of fiction, such as other encyclopedias, include disclaimers about spoilers when discussing said works."
This is factually false, since other language Wikipedias include spoiler warnings (e.g. the Dutch one). This wording therefore has to be changed for sure.
"# Sections that frequently contain spoiler warnings—such as plot summaries, episode lists, character descriptions, etc.—were already clearly named to indicate that they contain plot details. Therefore, further disclaimers would be redundant and unnecessary."
This is again too strongly worded and incorrect. A section heading of "episode list" does not 'clearly' indicate that it contains crucial details about the ending of these episodes, for instance. Better would be "were already named to indicate that they may contain plot details".
"Labeling a plot detail as a spoiler would require editors to use their own subjective opinions to interpret the significance of a plot detail and its likelihood of altering the enjoyment of the work of fiction. This would be a violation of Wikipedia's core policies of no original research, verifiability, and neutral point of view."
The process of writing an encyclopaedia always involves interpretation, and not every form of interpretation is biased or a violation of a prohibition on original research. Take for instance the article "Liberalism", which states that liberalism "became popular among philosophers and economists in the Western world" during the Age of Enlightenment. What is the threshold for 'popularity'? Even if a source says that it became popular, this is still a subjective statement, since other sources may only consider something to be 'popular' when the majority of a group likes it, etc.
Furthermore, it would be possible in certain cases to cite sources to establish that a certain plot detail is widely considered significant and is in fact likely to alter the enjoyment of a work of fiction. One conclusive example is this: https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/jul/23/books.harrypotter . This alone makes the statement that labeling a plot detail as a spoiler would always be a violation of Wikipedia's policies on verifiability factually wrong.
Could we please change the wording to make it more accurate? I tried boldly to do this but it was reverted by someone who considered it 'weasel wording'. However, the guideline against weasel wording is aimed at claims such as 'some people think X', which should be replaced by 'person Y thinks X' with a citation, not by making the claim seem even less contentious by presenting controversial opinions as facts by writing 'X is true' without a citation.
Highflyer Hank ( talk) 14:31, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
I have no idea how true that is, but it was an interesting comment. Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 10:24, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
Given the mess over the film over "Once Upon a Time in Hollywood" (see [1]) I would propose something like: However, despite the lack of spoiler notices, content that would be considered as a spoiler must remain verifiable, meaning that the work in question should have been reasonably published to the public so that its plot summary can be verified by anyone reading or viewing the work (see WP:WAF). For examples, in film, a single showing at a film festival would not be sufficiently public, while a limited "sneak peak" at multiple theaters prior to wide release would be. Wording is only suggested but this would be at the end of the lede. -- Masem ( t) 19:04, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
I think the only connection of the issue of a fabricated plot summary to the spoiler guideline is that people used WP:SPOILER to justify re-including the wrong plot summary. WP:SPOILER should not be used to keep unverifiable material in the article. A possible addition:
Any comments on that? — Kusma ( t· c) 08:51, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
editors should make sure that an encyclopedic purpose is being served and content policies are followed.Anomie ⚔ 13:15, 31 July 2019 (UTC)