One of the rationales given by the blocking admin was that the user was causing drama. If this case is accepted, I think if the ArbCom takes this case (which I don't think is a good idea, see below) the ArbCom could and SHOULD indicate whether blocking only one side of an edit war is designed to reduce drama.. or if it will cause the same thing that the admin involved claimed to be wanting to stop. Also, the creator of this case seems to be firing off ArbCom cases left and right, trying to get ArbCom to remove who he views as controversial admins. In neither case, really, has he tried to work the issue out. (there was no RfC on ZScout's action, yet he brought a case and asked for ZScout to be de-sysoped), and now this case. I would ask that ArbCom reject this out of hand as no TRUE dispute resolution attempted. 05:52, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
(reply to Phil Sandifer statement below)
There is a rather broad consensus on the ANI thread that there should be no block amongst several admins. Asking for Sean William to be de-sysopped and/or lose unblocking privileges due to acting with that consensus against your action is petty and beneath you, Phil. I invite you to remove that statement, and sleep it over. SirFozzie ( talk) 06:02, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
(further edit) I would hope any ArbCom members who have a stake in the channel would recuse themselves, as the conflict of interest is visible to all. SirFozzie ( talk) 15:56, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Drama bomb though this may seem, acceptance is probably necessary. The disruption stemming from recent revert-warring on Wikipedia:IRC channels/wikipedia-en-admins is an unusually divisive dispute, involves more than a half dozen users (mostly admins), has resulted in several blocks (me included, though that was overturned pretty quickly), and shows no sign of dissipating (talk page discussing has gotten the issue nowhere).
The recent locus of the dispute has been the IRC channel page, though this actually largely goes back to Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Giano, and Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pedophilia userbox wheel war before it. In other words, this astonishing immaturity is nearing its second birthday. How about the committee try, forcefully, to end the conflict before it blows out some more candles? (And I don't mean slapping Giano with an unenforcable "reminder" and pretending that will do something. Again. Because that clearly does not work.)
Geogre says "Additionally, others have been reverting and rolling back (!) content edits by other users." Why the third person? [1]
He also says "If anyone looks bad here, it's not Giano II." On the contrary, I think Giano looks like a persistent edit-warrior. That's still considered bad, is it not?
To all arbitrators considering voting reject: no, please don't. Individual admins blocking Giano never works. Nothing is ever decided on AN/I. Even Jimbo making a few pronouncements does nothing. This is what the committee is here for, to arbitrate major disputes that can't be solved elsewhere. So, please accept. Picaroon (t) 06:03, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
The root cause of all of the behaviour leading to the filing of this request for arbitration is inappropriate remarks (as noted by Bishonen above) made on the #-admins IRC channel - a locus outside of Wikipedia that this committee has previously stated is outside of their scope. However, many members of this committee are channel operators for this IRC channel, and as such they have individual responsibilities in enforcing appropriate behaviour on the channel. There is already existing conflict within Arbcom with respect to addressing behaviour of editors and administrators on IRC. The chance of a successful result from hearing this matter depends on the Arbcom's ability to address the key issues at the heart of the editorial and administrative behaviour. Therefore, the committee should only accept this case if it believes that it has the authority to address behaviour in the #-admins IRC channel. I note the following:
There is much more to be considered than the violations of various policy by one individual. Issues pertaining to why one person only seems to be breaking the letter of the law when the spirit of the law is being ignored by other parties needs to be addressed. The apparent use of separate accounts to pursue the aims of one side of a dispute, knowing that the other disputants would likely violate policy to counter those edits, needs review. The use of the sysop bit to disallow editing of content by non admins, and the same tools to edit the protected content needs investigation. The relationship between Wikipedians using off wiki communications and the resultant actions on wiki needs to be addressed, and how the communities policies (or lack of) toward semi official venues for discussion may influence how and for what purposes they are used. Further to Risker's point above, the presence of many sysops, arbs and 'crats on a medium not regulated by wiki policies and the consequences relating to determining matters arising from conduct on those communication channels needs urgent examination. In short, ArbCom needs to accept this request and to broaden the investigation to address the history of the events leading to the request being filed and to discuss the consequences of any decision in regards the use of extra wiki forms of communication and its relationship with the community. LessHeard vanU ( talk) 11:35, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Just a brief appeal here: can we please have full disclosure from the individual arbitrators over their use of and involvement in the Wikipedia IRC channels. I believe this ranges from "not using them" to "owning them". This is a wide spectrum, and it would be best to be clear on the differing levels of involvement. Carcharoth ( talk) 11:40, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Giano is not the only one to have a history of "drama". If this arbitration is accepted it needs to look at the actions of more than just the one person. violet/riga (t) 12:47, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Number of problems here.
“ | That might have worked, in a universe where the page hadn't already been protected several times and yet administrators continued the edit war despite the protection. I already count about eight unambiguous instances of abusive administrator action not even counting the edit warring and rampant misuse of rollback. David Gerard, Geogre, and Wknight94 all made reverts while the page was protected. David Gerard and Geogre both used protection powers during the edit war they were involved in. Doc glasgow and Sean William both reversed another admin's block without allowing enough time (10 minutes and one hour, respectively) for consensus or input on the matter. Coredesat and David Fuchs both blocked a user that they also reverted in that edit war. All for this inconsequential project-space page about an IRC channel. It's ridiculous. Dmcdevit·t 08:33, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | ” |
Award for best comment, however, goes to Somey from Wikipedia Review: "This is what these people do for Christmas? Jeez, I thought my life was pathetic!"
*Don't slag off your fellow admins in the channel, save that for the trolls. Tony Sidaway should have been kicked out for a month or something.Actually, scrap that, apologies: seems like someone may have been faking logs. All very Alistair MacLean, but this is largely irrelevant.
Merry Christmas. I really want nothing to do with this.-- Docg 17:41, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
++ Lar: t/ c 17:49, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
As this is headed toward acceptance, I strongly urge a rename. If weeks are wasted stating the obvious—that Giano was disruptive—nothing will have been accomplished. The role of IRC and, to the extent possible, other off-site fora used for decision-making must be addressed. Unfortunately, the Durova decision failed to properly tackle it. Marskell ( talk) 17:46, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
I haven't been on wikipedia in almost a week, and IRC for nearly a month, so I don't know what really happened. Looking at the dispute, I agree with Violetriga, all sides needs to be looked at the case, not only Giano, and this is a case in which IRC evidence needs to be looked on closely. Those attacks need to be added to this case. I also agree that Giano should be limited in wikipedia space. Secret account 21:22, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
I use the channel occasionally; I find it useful but I always thought it should be logged. I agree that Wikipedia decision making should be public and civil, and a closed forum does not encourage those qualities. And let's face it, claiming that the channel is unofficial is wikilawyering. If it is unofficial, remove the links to it from Wikipedia policy page and change its name which sounds quite "legit". That said, I will stress that based on my experience the channel is useful; majority of discussions in it are good faithed and speed up dealing with various problems, and users complaining about IRC cabalism or such are too often complaining due to fear that their misdeeds may get talked about in a forum they cannot disrupt.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 12:58, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Just wanted to point out that although the ArbCom has indicated that they have no authority over what occurs in the IRC in question, the official page for that IRC states clearly that any problems with user behavior in that IRC are supposed be be addressed by the ArbCom, among others [2]. I hope that the ArbCom in their proposed decision will address this contradiction. Cla68 ( talk) 00:21, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
I use the channel myself and my characterisation of its nature does not differ from Newyorkbrad's in his posts on this page. Sometimes it is plain out boring as everyone's logged in but asleep or elsewhere. Other times it's friendly and chatty (I'd actually say most of the time). Some unhelpful stuff does go on there at times. Very little organisation or planning is involved, and efforts to do so risk backfiring as the channel users are a diverse bunch with nothing more in common than that 66, 70, however many separate RfAs elevated them to the status of admins. However I would ask ArbCom to consider the possibility that keeping such behaviour where it can be seen by people such as Newyorkbrad, FT2 and others who the community has recently expressed strong confidence in, is actually a good thing from an accountability point of view. I agree that some ganging up occurs, and I have seen it on a few occasions, but that does not need IRC as a venue - I've seen glimpses of private mailing CC groups (not formal lists) which have been both more coordinated and more nasty in times past. I am not defending the actions of any of the parties (some are downright outrageous, and I really hope the Committee can deal with those matters to the satisfaction of all present) but I am merely questioning whether IRC is the locus of the dispute or simply evidence of a wider problem as Wikipedia grows in size and accumulates readers and editors who have no memory or experience of a time when Wikipedia was different to the present - while some of those who do remember that time well and how things worked then have possibly developed a sort of a "them vs us" mentality (as unhelpful as it is inevitable in social media). Orderinchaos 07:14, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Is there a policy regarding members of the arbcom mailing list who also are parties to a case? I can't imaging the the arbcom would allow one participant of a case to make their points on a private mailing list where other parties don't have access.
Since David Gerard is on the arbcom mailing list and also a party to this case, can the arbcom confirm that his input is restricted to the on-wiki case pages? -- Duk 20:31, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Some potential conflicts of interest I've spotted. Nothing major, in my opinion, but best to get this out of the way now, I think. From the IRC logs that were posted over on the evidence page, it seems that FT2 was present in the channel at the time of the Tony Sidaway-Bishonen incident - trying to pour coffee on troubled waters I believe. There was also a metaphorical tranquilising dart gun being used (in vain), and various people bailing out of the channel as they saw trouble brewing (though whether more people left than would normally do so is not clear to me). Anyway, the point I'm making is that FT2 may have a slight conflict of interest here with his role as arbitrator. Similarly, Newyorkbrad, who tried to rewrite and calm things on the Wikipedia:IRC channels/wikipedia-en-admins page back in July 2007 (see here) may have a slightly larger conflict of interest in this case as an arbitrator. Raising this now so it can be sorted before the proposed decision page is opened for business. Things get messy if conflicts of interest are raised later on. Personally, I don't think either of these cases of involvement rise to the level of conflict of interest, but this should be stated openly either way. Only Morven (Matthew Brown) responded to my appeal above, and did so here. Were any of the other arbitrators present in the channel during that incident or editing the page in question? Will the active arbitrators on the case make clear the level of involvement they have with IRC? My impression is that some who were not involved much before they became chanops, are still not involved that much. For those who don't know the history, it might be best to make that clearer. Carcharoth ( talk) 21:44, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) Carcharoth - I'm way ahead of you. I've been considering different forms of COI that might come up as an arb since before entering the Arbcom election, as part of my own careful consideration of the role. As an extension of that, I asked for arb advice as one of my first actions upon hearing I had been appointed to the committee, even though the case had not yet been formally accepted at that point. (Also capable of confirmation if required.) Until January 1 I've been told new appointees are not serving on cases anyhow.
That said, to answer the question directly, my involvement on IRC discussion was extremely slight.
During the dispute I made one comment only, which was in full "> FT2 passes the coffee round" (crossref WP:TEA, I prefer coffee). My last comments before that were to without reserve accept Bish's comment on a topic I had been discussing amicably with (but not related to) Tony. After it my next comment was to Ryan P that I'd fixed a template he had a problem with. In private my only discussion was non-contentious; I solicited both of their opinions on the discussion that had been in progress beforehand, and disengaged with both fairly quickly to try and avoid accidental upset. That was the extent of IRC involvement. I'll comment on wiki (or other) involvement (such little as it was) if needed in January. FT2 ( Talk | email) 00:03, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
The page protection for Wikipedia:IRC channels/wikipedia-en-admins (the venue for an edit war that led to the current arbitration case Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/IRC) is due to expire at 09:01, 2 January 2008, which is just over 4 hours from now. Some discussion is going on on the talk page, but I'm raising this issue now so people can consider whether to extend the page protection, or allow careful editing to resume, or to leave things as they are and re-protect if needed. You would think people wouldn't be so stupid as to resume edit warring over this, but I'm not so sure. Cross-posting to the following places: Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/IRC, Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents, and User talk:Alison (the current protecting admin). Carcharoth ( talk) 04:50, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Based on the Gerard section on the Proposed Decision here, if the AC is leaning against not sanctioning him because he has provided evidence in secret that he does WP:OWN the page, this fact and status were apparently unknown or by community history and norms unacceptable before this case. Therefore, if Gerard cannot be sanctioned due to his OWNership of this page, which no one knew about in public, was not in public endorsed by the community, and was unheard of before this case, then no one else can be sanctioned or disciplined for edit "warring" on it if he can't.
What is good for the goose is good for the gander: If Gerard is off the hook for edit warring because he did in fact own it, then others are utterly entitled to the same pass as they did not know this to be the case (in fact, no one except Gerard, and IRC regulars such as Sidaway or Sandifer apparently even endorsed this minority viewpoint before this). To issue sanctions then on other editors for WEA editing would indicate bias towards Gerard, and needs to be disallowed. Please strike the mistaken proposals in the Proposed Decision based on this. Policy enforcement or the lack thereof must be identical for Gerard, Bishonen, Geogre, and Giano. Thanks.
Short version: If Gerard is not to be sanctioned for edit warring because no one knew in public he literally did own that WEA page, then no-one here can be sanctioned for that, as they didn't know in public that he owned it either. Lawrence Cohen 14:47, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
I would recommend this page be courtesy blanked. Stifle ( talk) 09:50, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Risker has also drawn our attention to this de facto request by one of the others named in the case. -- Tony Sidaway 20:03, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
I did a Google search using Phil's name. The first time this specific Arbcom case comes up is at the 74th entry (out of 4540, and there are several other Phil Sandifers). Out of respect to Phil, I will not describe the nature of some of the other links I found on the first several pages of the search.
I also did a Google search using your name, Tony. I stopped looking for a link to this Arbcom case after the first 250 links; it's probably there somewhere, but with almost 17,000 results linked to your name, finding it will be like a needle in a haystack. And because I am a decent person, I will not go into the nature of many of the links I saw, either posted by you or about you.
The only person who is sanctioned by name in this arbitration hearing is Giano. He feels rather strongly that the page should not be blanked. The default position is for the page to remain as it is. Nobody to this point has shown good cause to blank the page; indeed, the apparent "Google" effect on two of the individuals who edit under their real-life names is near non-existent. It's unfortunate, Tony, that you chose to further inflame this situation by posting that link, as I was put in the position of having to point out the absurdity of editors who claim that any reference to them in an Arbcom case will cause irreparable harm, and having to address Phil's situation directly. Now this finding is on record, and other editors in the future will not be able to use that claim. Risker ( talk) 01:07, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I have no objection to courtesy-blanking this talkpage, but I was under the impression that steps had been taken so that arbitration pages and other project-space pages would no longer show up in Google searches. Is that not the case? Newyorkbrad ( talk) 01:33, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
"Barring a request by one of the named parties, I'm unsure this qualifies under WP:CBLANK. Jouster ( whisper) 12:30, 11 February 2008 (UTC)": Well, I'm a named party, and I would say that we either have a "forgetting" of everything, including the absurdity/monstrosity of the move against Giano, or we leave the entire blob of hate and anger and irrationality in place. If we are going to have institutional memory or "Giano on civility patrol for any chance to block him," then we need an institutional memory of all the dreadful "reasoning" that led there. If we are not going to have that, if we are not going to have a record of all the things that happened, then we shouldn't have a black mark memorialized as well. Many untrue things were said? None more than were said against Giano, and yet those must stay so that anyone who invokes that atrocity will see also the unreasoning nature of it. Geogre ( talk) 12:01, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I affix my name in the "absolutely not" column. I don't think it's a good idea to blank this case while there are sanctions active. Moreover, I don't think it's a good idea to blank this case while there are lessons that might be learned from it. Not have it come up in Google searches? Sure. Make that happen, please. But it needs to be referencable and readable, including by non admins those unskilled in divining which revisions to view. I'm not seeing where Arbcom wants to forget the whole thing and lift all the sanctions and remove all the admonishments. I edit under my real name (in that it's clearly linked from an easily findable page) and I am always fully prepared to stand behind every word I say, and accept whatever others say, as long as it's not something that would be oversighted. I trust my colleagues here to know the difference between truth and invective. ++
Lar:
t/
c
12:41, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
-- Tony Sidaway 12:58, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Is this (Tony using a hide/show trick, at 16:49 today, on the civility sanction displayed on his talk page) comparable to the blanking of these arbitration case pages? Note: I've already asked Tony about this on his talk page ( conversation so far). I have concerns that Tony is annotating, tweaking and hide/show-ing his sanction, while others would not be allowed to do the same with theirs. Of course, since it was voluntary, if enough fuss is made about leaving it visible, Tony could withdraw from agreeing to the civility sanction, but I hope he won't do that (as it would leave him open to charges that it was a cynical ploy to avoid sanctions, rather than a genuine attempt to bring balance to the case, which I believe it was). I would hope though, that Tony would consider leaving the sanction in the state it was when FloNight added it, or at least keeping changes and annotations to a minimum. I am sure there is another sanction in this case that many people would like to annotate, but can't. Carcharoth ( talk) 18:22, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
We regularly courtesy blank all or part of RFArb if it helps the involved parties move on. Evidently (my interpretation from his comments on site and in emails to me) Giano feels that the Arbitration Committee has done harm to the Community through this decision. Also that we are trying to silence him. I'm thinking that Giano feels that Committee want to blank this case to hide it from view so that we cover up the harm that was done and silence him. While of course, that is not true, I really do not see the need for blanking in this case and encourage editors to drop the request if it is causing Giano more unhappiness.
I responded to the issue about Tony's sanction on his talk page. FloNight ♥♥♥ 19:34, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Tony that several things are
muxed ip here. We're talking about "courtesy" but it is also important to remeber that talk all pages serve as some version of our collective memory. I'd also suggest that there is a balance between showing courtesy by blanking and demonstrating courtesy
when doing so. In this regard, there seems to be general agreement that the pain felt by those collectively affronted is small enough that it is outweighed by the value of keeping this "in plain sight." -
152.91.9.144 (
talk)
02:03, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
I propose that the the wording of the incivility parole be amended to include the word "unduly" (or similar) prior to the word "uncivil", to permit the community (and especially the admins) sufficient leeway in attempting to deal with instances of vigorous debate with sometimes colourful language by Giano II. In this instance a heated discussion involving several parties resulted in an enquiry whether Giano II should be sanctioned for their style or tone of comments. I do not believe that the parole was intended to disallow Giano from strongly expressing their views, or to allow opposing parties to use the threat of sanction to discourage Giano from arguing their case (a very foolish premise, it might be concluded), and the wording as is allows for instances of "block shopping". Giano II would still be under sanction for instances of incivility that may be determined as being disruptive.
I shall inform Giano II of this request, but do not anticipate a response (here). I urge the Committee to proceed (or not) independent of a statement by Giano II. LessHeard vanU ( talk) 13:23, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
As the person who initiated the enquiry referred to, I would support such an amendment myself. DDStretch (talk) 13:33, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
The civility policy in no way prevents people from expressing strong views. It just needs to be done in a way that is not nasty. Giano is not being prevented from expressing strong views, but is instead prevented from being uncivil while doing so. You do not need incivility to debate, even when you have strong views. All Giano needs to do in order to avoid sanctions is to treat other editors with more respect. For example he could have explained his objection without saying that his opponent had "the attention span of a gnat", which would have prevented people being concerned about his actions. (1 == 2)Until 13:37, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
In addition to Until(1 ==2)'s point, if Giano took more care to avoid characterising other users (editors and readers) in the way he did, it would help maintain the collaborative nature of wikipedia. It would reduce to a minimum the chance that discussions would get unnecessarily heated or dramatic. The underlying point he was endeavouring to make was made quite reasonably, using rational and calm language (excepting the use of "cognitive deficit"), by another here, for instance. DDStretch (talk) 13:56, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
There seems to be a confusion between incivility and kid gloves. In the same way that Wikipedia is not censored, it should not be necessary to treat every editor as if they are a grade-schooler from a strict Mormon home who will be offended by the word "bother". A workable definition of civility has to be one which will improve our community and be embraced by it, rather than one which allows polite but vexatious people to drive off those with greater knowledge and understanding than they themselves have, by pretending mortal insults in cases of forceful assertion.
If a civility guideline cannot include, influence and inspire people like Giano, I'd argue that it is a bad guideline. And there is also a huge difference in character between what is said close to the encyclopaedia, and what is acceptable in userspace. We've recently had the utterly absurd case of an admin blocking a long-standing contributor for telling him to "get lost" on his own user page. Some part of the community seems incapable of applying Clue in this matter. Guy ( Help!) 20:43, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Wait, guy, so if Giano can't follow the rules on civility, we should get rid of the rules? No, that's ridiculous. If he can't be civil, he needs to go. That simple. He's not specially excepted from the rules, and we don't get to dismiss every violation he makes of them (of which there are numerous) with "zomg treating him with kid gloves". We've given him enough chances. Time to start actually enforcing the rules equitably, including against Giano. ⇒ SWATJester Son of the Defender 23:13, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Concur with Guy, Geogre et al. The civility guideline is hopelessly flawed; it prevents candor and blunt language. All respect to Swat; but I'd much rather toss the civility guidelines out the window than such a fine contributor as Giano. Let us not forget that at all times the first question, the paramount question, should be: what benefits the project? I submit that ridiculously juvenile and narrow definitions of civility, enforced blindly, harm the project immensely. Giano shouldn't have to wear kid gloves or walk on eggshells because some clueless twerps - oh, pardon me, some editors cannot handle blunt phrasing. One puppy's opinion.
KillerChihuahua
?!?
00:47, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Certainly the civility policy can and has been used as a club against users who are blunt like Giano, and there have been admins who are far too willing to block for the slightest little transgression of the civility policy. There's nothing good about either of those things, and indeed such actions are themselves rather uncivil.
I am, however, nonplussed by those editors who insist that we should basically throw the civility policy out the window, or at least not bother to apply it to "good" or "expert" users. I've read many comments complaining about the civility policy, but to my knowledge no one has explained why incivility is ever necessary. I would love to read such an explanation someday. There is nothing wrong with going after another editor's argument in a blunt manner (pointing out errors of logic, fact, or interpretation, or demonstrating inconsistency in a user's approach to a given issue), and indeed doing so will often convince others of your view. But if while doing that one concludes with "which is why you're an idiot" one has; A) Added nothing to the argument; B) Simply angered the other user and inflamed the dispute; C) Made one's argument look worse in the eyes of others. When incivility is directed at newer users by more experienced ones it can also have a chilling effect, since participating at Wikipedia can, at first, be a bit of an intimidating experience to begin with—even for folks with expertise in a particular area.
The Arbs seem to be attempting to pursue a different route with Giano below which seems fine. These general issues will continually come up though, and in the future I'd like to see the partisans of "to hell with civility" explain why it is ever necessary to be uncivil and provide specific examples of occasions when a failure to make an uncivil comment hindered the work of the encyclopedia.-- Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 19:21, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Could the arbitration committee please clarify what has or has not resulted from the final principle and the associated remedy in the IRC case, namely: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/IRC#Policy issues surrounding IRC and Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/IRC#IRC, and what is planned for the future, if anything. The principle in full is:
"The Arbitration Committee has recently been asked by Jimbo Wales to take an expanded role in the governance of IRC. The Committee is formulating policy and procedure changes based on this new role independently from this case. passed 7-1 at 03:48, 9 February 2008 (UTC)"
The remedy in full is:
"Policy and procedure changes regarding Wikipedia IRC channels will be addressed separately by this committee. passed 9-0 with 1 abstention at 03:56, 9 February 2008 (UTC)"
Thank-you. Carcharoth ( talk) 16:40, 26 March 2008 (UTC) Updated 17:16, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
I can state that several other channel ops and I have been working hard to take the communities views in hand when we have been discussing how to handle future behavioural issues in the channel. The first thing we've done is created guidlines for the channel which all users of the channel are aware of. These can be found here. The problems highlighted in the IRC case are mainly because members of the channel didn't understand what was expected of them and the channel operators didn't really know their role in stopping behavioural problems. The operators have now decided to take a more proactive role in the enforcement of channel standards, and all users are aware that if they start discussing people behind their backs, start being offensive or anything else which could be seen from the outside as unacceptable, they'll have their access removed. Obviously sometimes a warning may suffice, but in serious incidents, we'll remove on sight.
What we've also done is made the access list public, so any IRC user can see exactly who has access to the channel. On wiki, we've created User:Cbrown1023/Guidelines (user info) so that everyone is aware exactly who has access to the channel, and who the channel operators are. If there's a concern with someones conduct, then anyone is welcome to contact one of the ops and it will be taken extremely seriously and we'll of course keep you informed of what is happening. At present, we're currently debating the role of non administrators in the channel and whether or not they should keep their access. We've had no consensus either way up to this point, but we'll keep on going highlighting both the benefits and disadvantages.
The channel has moved on a lot since the case and although there hasn't been any direction from ArbCom, the internal running and operation has taken a lot from the case and everything is now much clearer regarding expected standards and routes for ops to take if there are problems. If people have concerns, just contact one of us. I'm sure the arbitration committee would also be willing to hear of problems if the ops haven't dealt with it. Ryan Postlethwaite 17:16, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
"Just contact one of us"..? Er, how? Why are people expected to know the way to CBrowns userspace if they have been treated badly on the channel? Why isn't there a public board in Wikipedia space (linked to from WP:AN and similar) where complaints can be dealt with by senior ops? Bishonen | talk 17:40, 26 March 2008 (UTC).
Given that the remedy the committee passed was that the committee would address this issue, the activity Ryan discusses, while likely meritorious, does not actually fulfill the remedy. Is there a status update as to the committee's activity? GRBerry 17:43, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
First, I think this space should probably be reserved to ask the committee for an update on their views of IRC governance etc., and discussion of Bishonen's excellent question should be moved elsewhere (including my comments below, should someone be so bold as to start such a discussion).
I think a noticeboard for IRC chanops would be an excellent idea. Now, this gets a bit esoteric and lawyerish, but it seems to be the current situation that IRC is recognized as an independent creature, with different rules of conduct and methods of dispute resolution, and that Wikipedia has no authority to mandate any particular channel behavior or dispute resolution process. However, that does not mean that the chanops could not choose for their own convenience to host a noticeboard on Wikipedia. I think a noticeboard is an excellent idea because it will allow issues to be discussed by more than just the ops who happen to be online at a given moment, and it will have archives, including a record of when and why a user was added or removed from the channel that IRC itself does not provide. There already seems to be a sort of noticeboard at User talk:Cbrown1023/Guidelines.
However, hosting the noticeboard and associated policies/contact lists/dispute resolution processes in Wikipedia space presents the same problem it did before; it suggests that anyone can edit it, when in fact only the participants in IRC have a say and only the chanops (appear to) have the final say. So it may be necessary either to host the pages in project space but grant them an exemption from "everyone can edit" or to keep them in user space but raise their profile through linkage or even transclusion. Thatcher 18:10, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm replying here to FT2's response to Carcharoth's basic question why the final principle "The Arbitration Committee has recently been asked by Jimbo Wales to take an expanded role in the governance of IRC. The Committee is formulating policy and procedure changes based on this new role independently from this case" (passed 7-1) and its associated remedy "Policy and procedure changes regarding Wikipedia IRC channels will be addressed separately by this committee" (passed 9-0), have both come to naught. My post goes to clarifying the committee's final principles and remedies as they relate to en-admins IRC case—it's not about FT2's block of Giano—therefore I post it here, in preference to drowning it at the now extremely copious discussion of that block on WP:AE (most of it posted by FT2). Yes, I know I'm not supposed to post in this section, which is for arbs, but it seems my only chance of being heard. (I won't post again, whether or not you remove me from this spot, Thatcher. This has taken me much too much time as it is.)
Like probably most people, I feel at an awful disadvantage when attempting to discuss or debate with FT2, since he seems impressively able to write about 100 lines in the space of time that it takes your average wikipedian to write 20, and me to write 5. (And NYBrad to write 70 or so.) My efforts in the direction of debate with FT2 have always literally drowned. But I will try just once to do my own clarification. I made an effort to come to grips with the background to FT2's new guidelines for IRC (at this moment not available in CBrown's space, but mirrored at [7])—these guidelines being the only mouse that has so far been born from the laboring mountains of the IRC case, and it's final principles and remedies. The background to the guidelines, as offered by FT2 in channel to anybody interested, turned out to be an edited log of a discussion between FT2 and some 6 or 10 channel users (by FT2's own estimate) from February 25-26. I have it here. It's been edited by FT2 to remove irrelevancies, and consists–well, I don't have any counting tool that will work for this— but at my rough estimate, the discussion consists to at least 80% of FT2 himself talking, mainly describing how well the channel works now:
I discussed these matters with FT2 in PM on IRC several times, before he actually sent me the above log to look at, and I was rather shocked by his descriptions of that log. Here's a snippet of our discussion from March 5, posted with permission.
To recapitulate: What has happened with the policy and procedures of the IRC en-admins channel since the IRC case was closed, then, is that there are now new guidelines for it in CBrown's userspace (update: no, actually at this moment in Martinp23's userspace), authored (largely) by FT2, and emphasizing how well the channel currently works.
[8] The origin of the new guidelines was an IRC discussion, massively dominated by FT2 himself, on February 25-26 between FT2 and a few admins. So much for the expanded role in the governance of IRC that the ArbCom undertook in its final principle. So much for its new oversight as foreseen in the remedy it voted for. May we please have some commentary from some of the arbs besides FT2—from those that put hand to keyboard and voted for a new role of arbcom with respect to IRC—voted for changes in policy and procedure, changes to be addressed by the committee—voted 9-0 and 7-1? FloNight? Newyorkbrad? Paul August? Clarification please? Especially, clarification of that which is never clarified by anybody, but always sidestepped — the role of James Forrester as envisaged by arbcom — would be appreciated to the point of jubilation.
Bishonen |
talk
16:14, 27 March 2008 (UTC).
“ | Users found publishing logs will be banned from all Wikimedia channels. | ” |
Not that I want to stir trouble but I would like to remind people the above rule. Be careful what you post here as this is a public place to publish things. I just don't want to see anyone get banned.
-- Cat chi? 21:46, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I'd make the point, speaking to the notes and log above, that the current en-admins channel does have a wide membership in terms of its views, and I think despite the thinking of some that the diversity of the community's views are actually well represented there. A recent incident (well documented elsewhere so no need to do so here) resulted in strident criticism of the channel's operations, and as a critic myself of the initial handling of the matter, I was happy with how it was ultimately resolved. Orderinchaos 11:08, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
"Succinctly"? LOL, come on, don't be so quick to dudgeon just because it's me. You're Patient Guy with everybody else, remember? Thank you for your answer. Will you clarify it a little bit more? I guess there may not indeed be community consensus that the ArbCom should exercise control over the channel, but it's my impression that there is/was ArbCom consensus for it [9] (with the single exception of Paul August). Your own support for the principle "Policy and procedure changes regarding Wikipedia IRC channels will be addressed separately by this committee" is admittedly very hedged, being predicated on it being "unfair to the parties" to keep the IRC case open any longer (not that I quite see what one thing has to do with the other — did Paul's abstention keep the case open any extra time?) As a short version, would you agree with this description of the current state of affairs: the ArbCom is, with the exception of FT2, individually and collectively in flight from taking responsibilty for the principle+remedy in question? Are you all waiting for somebody else to fulfill the passive "input should be sought"? Bishonen | talk 01:29, 29 March 2008 (UTC).
The saga over IRC is not new and the abuse grew since its inception. It first came to public light in the Fall 2006. The IRC got so frightened by the public reaction and by the evidence seeing the light that it called it a "coup d'etat attempt" ( this post made my day). Shortly the mess called Giano-I ArbCom was dubbed (aptly but imprecisely) an uprising of writing admins while in fact it was an uprising of Wikipedia writing community against the Wikipedia being "run" by its self-appointed ever-chatting in secret "elite" that dubbed that very community as "fickle and ill-informed populace".
Once some facts came out in the open, the 2007 passed with IRC resisting to give ground and claiming that everything is good to much of the community disgust. However, what was originally seen as "IRC" got developed into a new mentality. This culminated in Durova case and another messy discovery of the existence of the secret "lists" run on Wikia servers where good editors were investigated the Wikipedia Review style by a newly arrived layer of self-appointed "leaders and protectors of Wikipedia". Each of these messes brought some good revelations (and good desysoppings) but their usefulness by far exceeded that.
They where eye openers. Giano-I case revealed the phenomenon, the Durova case showed the extent to which the malfeasance penetrated. It was in this context that a mysterious and never heard of user (just like the author of Giano-I case) submitted a new case (originally also dubbed Giano) which was renamed "IRC" and portrayed as the case about "warring over WP:WEA" when editors of the "fickle and ill-informed" side tried to make the page reflecting the reality while David Gerard and his friends insisted on explicit rights over the Wikipedia page and on the the hypocritically convenient and deliberate lack of clarity over the connection between #admins and the Wikipedia
The ArbCom for whatever reason accepted a case over David Gerard's WP:WEA page just as quickly as it accepted the original (Giano-I) case. ArbCom then produced a decision with a bunch of findings and remedies totally disconnected from each other. Nevertheless, the committee took it upon itself to address the IRC problems at a later time leaving the community under an impression that " Policy and procedure changes regarding Wikipedia IRC channels will be addressed separately by this committee". Community hoped to see something meaningful, like a workgroup proposed by Flo. Later, "no consensus from ArbCom was found for this proposal" (note passive voice).
Soon the community "was told" that the adequate measures "were taken" through the channel's "self-policing" decided through "discussion" that occurred... nowhere else but at #admins itself. A paradox? I happened to have seen this "discussion". It was basically one arb/chanellop saying things and others nodding. This is a strange kind of "discussion" where an input from those "allegedly" abused by #admins is glaringly lacking. But let's see whether the channel improved and the problems are now "addressed" like we've heard time and again. Here is a random (not exclusive by any means) list of events (note recent dates) that took place at #admins and how they were "addressed".
(To avoid more red faces, I did not name some of the users and only provided the names in the cases that have been already discussed onwiki).
Now, we clearly see that the channel remains abusive. We also see that the despite some claims to the contrary, the current system of "good ombudsmanship" does not work. One does not need to be exceptionally smart to explain why:
I am sure that immediately upon my posting this will be discussed at the channel whose name you guessed right or even at one of the other "less leaky" channels. Surprisingly, I predict that the discussion will be again not on the substance but on the leaks themselves, just like in the Moreschi's incident.
We walked a long way since the Fall of 2006. On one hand we are by far better aware that backroom activity is thriving. OTOH, more people are now involved. A whole bunch now are on some channel: the #admins, "that other less leaky one" or one of its twins. Among those who are not (as well as who are) a whole bunch are on some "lists", yet unpurged Arbcom-L, a second (or third or more) Arbcom-L, the WR-style "investigations" list, etc (note: I do not have anything against the anti-harassment list particularly if it is held on topic). This list/channel tradition in addition to a direct devastating effect on the project, created a secondary effect. There are now POV-pushing and nationalist e-lists and IM networks. Instead of wikiprojects (many of which are dying), we have IRC-projects that are not transparent (e.g., the USRoads IRC related to another recent Arbcom case.) This atmosphere procreated by #admins is now corroding the good of Wikipedia.
Yes, people can (and will) talk privately. But we should not encourage it directly and, most importantly, should not sanction abuse at the officially affiliated IRC channels (by refusing to act or pretend that all is well), or disclaim the affiliation but refuse to dissociate either (cake have/eat) procreating this deliberate, hypocritical and morally indefensible limbo.
Clean up the #admins in a meaningful way or remove all links to it and let the folks have their chat, just like the team tags do! This all are not new ideas and have been stated in some form multiple times. However, please don't talk the "channel is now good and reformed". It just does not cut it and the editors would not believe such claims anymore anyway.
I rarely use IRC (I've been on four times this year) but spend quite an amount of time on wiki, and am somewhat removed from the issues complained of. I'd like to volunteer to be one of the five named admins if the proposal below is passed. Of course I will not take offense if not chosen. Stifle ( talk) 11:32, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
The editing restriction imposed on Giano II ( talk · contribs) in this case shall be subject to special enforcement. The Committee shall name up to five administrators who, together with the sitting members of the Committee, shall act as special enforcers for this restriction. Only these special enforcers shall be authorized to determine whether a violation of the restriction has occurred, and to issue blocks if one has.
Any administrator that reverses, modifies, or otherwise interferes with a block imposed by one of the special enforcers under this provision shall be summarily desysopped.
This provision shall supersede the existing enforcement provisions in the case.
As I seem unable to edit the main page of this charade [12] - which George William Whatever has edited, I suggest some remark pertaining to the discussion here [13] is added to this incompetent admin's edit. Giano ( talk) 19:00, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
One of the rationales given by the blocking admin was that the user was causing drama. If this case is accepted, I think if the ArbCom takes this case (which I don't think is a good idea, see below) the ArbCom could and SHOULD indicate whether blocking only one side of an edit war is designed to reduce drama.. or if it will cause the same thing that the admin involved claimed to be wanting to stop. Also, the creator of this case seems to be firing off ArbCom cases left and right, trying to get ArbCom to remove who he views as controversial admins. In neither case, really, has he tried to work the issue out. (there was no RfC on ZScout's action, yet he brought a case and asked for ZScout to be de-sysoped), and now this case. I would ask that ArbCom reject this out of hand as no TRUE dispute resolution attempted. 05:52, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
(reply to Phil Sandifer statement below)
There is a rather broad consensus on the ANI thread that there should be no block amongst several admins. Asking for Sean William to be de-sysopped and/or lose unblocking privileges due to acting with that consensus against your action is petty and beneath you, Phil. I invite you to remove that statement, and sleep it over. SirFozzie ( talk) 06:02, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
(further edit) I would hope any ArbCom members who have a stake in the channel would recuse themselves, as the conflict of interest is visible to all. SirFozzie ( talk) 15:56, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Drama bomb though this may seem, acceptance is probably necessary. The disruption stemming from recent revert-warring on Wikipedia:IRC channels/wikipedia-en-admins is an unusually divisive dispute, involves more than a half dozen users (mostly admins), has resulted in several blocks (me included, though that was overturned pretty quickly), and shows no sign of dissipating (talk page discussing has gotten the issue nowhere).
The recent locus of the dispute has been the IRC channel page, though this actually largely goes back to Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Giano, and Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pedophilia userbox wheel war before it. In other words, this astonishing immaturity is nearing its second birthday. How about the committee try, forcefully, to end the conflict before it blows out some more candles? (And I don't mean slapping Giano with an unenforcable "reminder" and pretending that will do something. Again. Because that clearly does not work.)
Geogre says "Additionally, others have been reverting and rolling back (!) content edits by other users." Why the third person? [1]
He also says "If anyone looks bad here, it's not Giano II." On the contrary, I think Giano looks like a persistent edit-warrior. That's still considered bad, is it not?
To all arbitrators considering voting reject: no, please don't. Individual admins blocking Giano never works. Nothing is ever decided on AN/I. Even Jimbo making a few pronouncements does nothing. This is what the committee is here for, to arbitrate major disputes that can't be solved elsewhere. So, please accept. Picaroon (t) 06:03, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
The root cause of all of the behaviour leading to the filing of this request for arbitration is inappropriate remarks (as noted by Bishonen above) made on the #-admins IRC channel - a locus outside of Wikipedia that this committee has previously stated is outside of their scope. However, many members of this committee are channel operators for this IRC channel, and as such they have individual responsibilities in enforcing appropriate behaviour on the channel. There is already existing conflict within Arbcom with respect to addressing behaviour of editors and administrators on IRC. The chance of a successful result from hearing this matter depends on the Arbcom's ability to address the key issues at the heart of the editorial and administrative behaviour. Therefore, the committee should only accept this case if it believes that it has the authority to address behaviour in the #-admins IRC channel. I note the following:
There is much more to be considered than the violations of various policy by one individual. Issues pertaining to why one person only seems to be breaking the letter of the law when the spirit of the law is being ignored by other parties needs to be addressed. The apparent use of separate accounts to pursue the aims of one side of a dispute, knowing that the other disputants would likely violate policy to counter those edits, needs review. The use of the sysop bit to disallow editing of content by non admins, and the same tools to edit the protected content needs investigation. The relationship between Wikipedians using off wiki communications and the resultant actions on wiki needs to be addressed, and how the communities policies (or lack of) toward semi official venues for discussion may influence how and for what purposes they are used. Further to Risker's point above, the presence of many sysops, arbs and 'crats on a medium not regulated by wiki policies and the consequences relating to determining matters arising from conduct on those communication channels needs urgent examination. In short, ArbCom needs to accept this request and to broaden the investigation to address the history of the events leading to the request being filed and to discuss the consequences of any decision in regards the use of extra wiki forms of communication and its relationship with the community. LessHeard vanU ( talk) 11:35, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Just a brief appeal here: can we please have full disclosure from the individual arbitrators over their use of and involvement in the Wikipedia IRC channels. I believe this ranges from "not using them" to "owning them". This is a wide spectrum, and it would be best to be clear on the differing levels of involvement. Carcharoth ( talk) 11:40, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Giano is not the only one to have a history of "drama". If this arbitration is accepted it needs to look at the actions of more than just the one person. violet/riga (t) 12:47, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Number of problems here.
“ | That might have worked, in a universe where the page hadn't already been protected several times and yet administrators continued the edit war despite the protection. I already count about eight unambiguous instances of abusive administrator action not even counting the edit warring and rampant misuse of rollback. David Gerard, Geogre, and Wknight94 all made reverts while the page was protected. David Gerard and Geogre both used protection powers during the edit war they were involved in. Doc glasgow and Sean William both reversed another admin's block without allowing enough time (10 minutes and one hour, respectively) for consensus or input on the matter. Coredesat and David Fuchs both blocked a user that they also reverted in that edit war. All for this inconsequential project-space page about an IRC channel. It's ridiculous. Dmcdevit·t 08:33, 26 December 2007 (UTC) | ” |
Award for best comment, however, goes to Somey from Wikipedia Review: "This is what these people do for Christmas? Jeez, I thought my life was pathetic!"
*Don't slag off your fellow admins in the channel, save that for the trolls. Tony Sidaway should have been kicked out for a month or something.Actually, scrap that, apologies: seems like someone may have been faking logs. All very Alistair MacLean, but this is largely irrelevant.
Merry Christmas. I really want nothing to do with this.-- Docg 17:41, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
++ Lar: t/ c 17:49, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
As this is headed toward acceptance, I strongly urge a rename. If weeks are wasted stating the obvious—that Giano was disruptive—nothing will have been accomplished. The role of IRC and, to the extent possible, other off-site fora used for decision-making must be addressed. Unfortunately, the Durova decision failed to properly tackle it. Marskell ( talk) 17:46, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
I haven't been on wikipedia in almost a week, and IRC for nearly a month, so I don't know what really happened. Looking at the dispute, I agree with Violetriga, all sides needs to be looked at the case, not only Giano, and this is a case in which IRC evidence needs to be looked on closely. Those attacks need to be added to this case. I also agree that Giano should be limited in wikipedia space. Secret account 21:22, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
I use the channel occasionally; I find it useful but I always thought it should be logged. I agree that Wikipedia decision making should be public and civil, and a closed forum does not encourage those qualities. And let's face it, claiming that the channel is unofficial is wikilawyering. If it is unofficial, remove the links to it from Wikipedia policy page and change its name which sounds quite "legit". That said, I will stress that based on my experience the channel is useful; majority of discussions in it are good faithed and speed up dealing with various problems, and users complaining about IRC cabalism or such are too often complaining due to fear that their misdeeds may get talked about in a forum they cannot disrupt.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 12:58, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Just wanted to point out that although the ArbCom has indicated that they have no authority over what occurs in the IRC in question, the official page for that IRC states clearly that any problems with user behavior in that IRC are supposed be be addressed by the ArbCom, among others [2]. I hope that the ArbCom in their proposed decision will address this contradiction. Cla68 ( talk) 00:21, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
I use the channel myself and my characterisation of its nature does not differ from Newyorkbrad's in his posts on this page. Sometimes it is plain out boring as everyone's logged in but asleep or elsewhere. Other times it's friendly and chatty (I'd actually say most of the time). Some unhelpful stuff does go on there at times. Very little organisation or planning is involved, and efforts to do so risk backfiring as the channel users are a diverse bunch with nothing more in common than that 66, 70, however many separate RfAs elevated them to the status of admins. However I would ask ArbCom to consider the possibility that keeping such behaviour where it can be seen by people such as Newyorkbrad, FT2 and others who the community has recently expressed strong confidence in, is actually a good thing from an accountability point of view. I agree that some ganging up occurs, and I have seen it on a few occasions, but that does not need IRC as a venue - I've seen glimpses of private mailing CC groups (not formal lists) which have been both more coordinated and more nasty in times past. I am not defending the actions of any of the parties (some are downright outrageous, and I really hope the Committee can deal with those matters to the satisfaction of all present) but I am merely questioning whether IRC is the locus of the dispute or simply evidence of a wider problem as Wikipedia grows in size and accumulates readers and editors who have no memory or experience of a time when Wikipedia was different to the present - while some of those who do remember that time well and how things worked then have possibly developed a sort of a "them vs us" mentality (as unhelpful as it is inevitable in social media). Orderinchaos 07:14, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Is there a policy regarding members of the arbcom mailing list who also are parties to a case? I can't imaging the the arbcom would allow one participant of a case to make their points on a private mailing list where other parties don't have access.
Since David Gerard is on the arbcom mailing list and also a party to this case, can the arbcom confirm that his input is restricted to the on-wiki case pages? -- Duk 20:31, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Some potential conflicts of interest I've spotted. Nothing major, in my opinion, but best to get this out of the way now, I think. From the IRC logs that were posted over on the evidence page, it seems that FT2 was present in the channel at the time of the Tony Sidaway-Bishonen incident - trying to pour coffee on troubled waters I believe. There was also a metaphorical tranquilising dart gun being used (in vain), and various people bailing out of the channel as they saw trouble brewing (though whether more people left than would normally do so is not clear to me). Anyway, the point I'm making is that FT2 may have a slight conflict of interest here with his role as arbitrator. Similarly, Newyorkbrad, who tried to rewrite and calm things on the Wikipedia:IRC channels/wikipedia-en-admins page back in July 2007 (see here) may have a slightly larger conflict of interest in this case as an arbitrator. Raising this now so it can be sorted before the proposed decision page is opened for business. Things get messy if conflicts of interest are raised later on. Personally, I don't think either of these cases of involvement rise to the level of conflict of interest, but this should be stated openly either way. Only Morven (Matthew Brown) responded to my appeal above, and did so here. Were any of the other arbitrators present in the channel during that incident or editing the page in question? Will the active arbitrators on the case make clear the level of involvement they have with IRC? My impression is that some who were not involved much before they became chanops, are still not involved that much. For those who don't know the history, it might be best to make that clearer. Carcharoth ( talk) 21:44, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) Carcharoth - I'm way ahead of you. I've been considering different forms of COI that might come up as an arb since before entering the Arbcom election, as part of my own careful consideration of the role. As an extension of that, I asked for arb advice as one of my first actions upon hearing I had been appointed to the committee, even though the case had not yet been formally accepted at that point. (Also capable of confirmation if required.) Until January 1 I've been told new appointees are not serving on cases anyhow.
That said, to answer the question directly, my involvement on IRC discussion was extremely slight.
During the dispute I made one comment only, which was in full "> FT2 passes the coffee round" (crossref WP:TEA, I prefer coffee). My last comments before that were to without reserve accept Bish's comment on a topic I had been discussing amicably with (but not related to) Tony. After it my next comment was to Ryan P that I'd fixed a template he had a problem with. In private my only discussion was non-contentious; I solicited both of their opinions on the discussion that had been in progress beforehand, and disengaged with both fairly quickly to try and avoid accidental upset. That was the extent of IRC involvement. I'll comment on wiki (or other) involvement (such little as it was) if needed in January. FT2 ( Talk | email) 00:03, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
The page protection for Wikipedia:IRC channels/wikipedia-en-admins (the venue for an edit war that led to the current arbitration case Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/IRC) is due to expire at 09:01, 2 January 2008, which is just over 4 hours from now. Some discussion is going on on the talk page, but I'm raising this issue now so people can consider whether to extend the page protection, or allow careful editing to resume, or to leave things as they are and re-protect if needed. You would think people wouldn't be so stupid as to resume edit warring over this, but I'm not so sure. Cross-posting to the following places: Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/IRC, Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents, and User talk:Alison (the current protecting admin). Carcharoth ( talk) 04:50, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Based on the Gerard section on the Proposed Decision here, if the AC is leaning against not sanctioning him because he has provided evidence in secret that he does WP:OWN the page, this fact and status were apparently unknown or by community history and norms unacceptable before this case. Therefore, if Gerard cannot be sanctioned due to his OWNership of this page, which no one knew about in public, was not in public endorsed by the community, and was unheard of before this case, then no one else can be sanctioned or disciplined for edit "warring" on it if he can't.
What is good for the goose is good for the gander: If Gerard is off the hook for edit warring because he did in fact own it, then others are utterly entitled to the same pass as they did not know this to be the case (in fact, no one except Gerard, and IRC regulars such as Sidaway or Sandifer apparently even endorsed this minority viewpoint before this). To issue sanctions then on other editors for WEA editing would indicate bias towards Gerard, and needs to be disallowed. Please strike the mistaken proposals in the Proposed Decision based on this. Policy enforcement or the lack thereof must be identical for Gerard, Bishonen, Geogre, and Giano. Thanks.
Short version: If Gerard is not to be sanctioned for edit warring because no one knew in public he literally did own that WEA page, then no-one here can be sanctioned for that, as they didn't know in public that he owned it either. Lawrence Cohen 14:47, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
I would recommend this page be courtesy blanked. Stifle ( talk) 09:50, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Risker has also drawn our attention to this de facto request by one of the others named in the case. -- Tony Sidaway 20:03, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
I did a Google search using Phil's name. The first time this specific Arbcom case comes up is at the 74th entry (out of 4540, and there are several other Phil Sandifers). Out of respect to Phil, I will not describe the nature of some of the other links I found on the first several pages of the search.
I also did a Google search using your name, Tony. I stopped looking for a link to this Arbcom case after the first 250 links; it's probably there somewhere, but with almost 17,000 results linked to your name, finding it will be like a needle in a haystack. And because I am a decent person, I will not go into the nature of many of the links I saw, either posted by you or about you.
The only person who is sanctioned by name in this arbitration hearing is Giano. He feels rather strongly that the page should not be blanked. The default position is for the page to remain as it is. Nobody to this point has shown good cause to blank the page; indeed, the apparent "Google" effect on two of the individuals who edit under their real-life names is near non-existent. It's unfortunate, Tony, that you chose to further inflame this situation by posting that link, as I was put in the position of having to point out the absurdity of editors who claim that any reference to them in an Arbcom case will cause irreparable harm, and having to address Phil's situation directly. Now this finding is on record, and other editors in the future will not be able to use that claim. Risker ( talk) 01:07, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I have no objection to courtesy-blanking this talkpage, but I was under the impression that steps had been taken so that arbitration pages and other project-space pages would no longer show up in Google searches. Is that not the case? Newyorkbrad ( talk) 01:33, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
"Barring a request by one of the named parties, I'm unsure this qualifies under WP:CBLANK. Jouster ( whisper) 12:30, 11 February 2008 (UTC)": Well, I'm a named party, and I would say that we either have a "forgetting" of everything, including the absurdity/monstrosity of the move against Giano, or we leave the entire blob of hate and anger and irrationality in place. If we are going to have institutional memory or "Giano on civility patrol for any chance to block him," then we need an institutional memory of all the dreadful "reasoning" that led there. If we are not going to have that, if we are not going to have a record of all the things that happened, then we shouldn't have a black mark memorialized as well. Many untrue things were said? None more than were said against Giano, and yet those must stay so that anyone who invokes that atrocity will see also the unreasoning nature of it. Geogre ( talk) 12:01, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I affix my name in the "absolutely not" column. I don't think it's a good idea to blank this case while there are sanctions active. Moreover, I don't think it's a good idea to blank this case while there are lessons that might be learned from it. Not have it come up in Google searches? Sure. Make that happen, please. But it needs to be referencable and readable, including by non admins those unskilled in divining which revisions to view. I'm not seeing where Arbcom wants to forget the whole thing and lift all the sanctions and remove all the admonishments. I edit under my real name (in that it's clearly linked from an easily findable page) and I am always fully prepared to stand behind every word I say, and accept whatever others say, as long as it's not something that would be oversighted. I trust my colleagues here to know the difference between truth and invective. ++
Lar:
t/
c
12:41, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
-- Tony Sidaway 12:58, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Is this (Tony using a hide/show trick, at 16:49 today, on the civility sanction displayed on his talk page) comparable to the blanking of these arbitration case pages? Note: I've already asked Tony about this on his talk page ( conversation so far). I have concerns that Tony is annotating, tweaking and hide/show-ing his sanction, while others would not be allowed to do the same with theirs. Of course, since it was voluntary, if enough fuss is made about leaving it visible, Tony could withdraw from agreeing to the civility sanction, but I hope he won't do that (as it would leave him open to charges that it was a cynical ploy to avoid sanctions, rather than a genuine attempt to bring balance to the case, which I believe it was). I would hope though, that Tony would consider leaving the sanction in the state it was when FloNight added it, or at least keeping changes and annotations to a minimum. I am sure there is another sanction in this case that many people would like to annotate, but can't. Carcharoth ( talk) 18:22, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
We regularly courtesy blank all or part of RFArb if it helps the involved parties move on. Evidently (my interpretation from his comments on site and in emails to me) Giano feels that the Arbitration Committee has done harm to the Community through this decision. Also that we are trying to silence him. I'm thinking that Giano feels that Committee want to blank this case to hide it from view so that we cover up the harm that was done and silence him. While of course, that is not true, I really do not see the need for blanking in this case and encourage editors to drop the request if it is causing Giano more unhappiness.
I responded to the issue about Tony's sanction on his talk page. FloNight ♥♥♥ 19:34, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Tony that several things are
muxed ip here. We're talking about "courtesy" but it is also important to remeber that talk all pages serve as some version of our collective memory. I'd also suggest that there is a balance between showing courtesy by blanking and demonstrating courtesy
when doing so. In this regard, there seems to be general agreement that the pain felt by those collectively affronted is small enough that it is outweighed by the value of keeping this "in plain sight." -
152.91.9.144 (
talk)
02:03, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
I propose that the the wording of the incivility parole be amended to include the word "unduly" (or similar) prior to the word "uncivil", to permit the community (and especially the admins) sufficient leeway in attempting to deal with instances of vigorous debate with sometimes colourful language by Giano II. In this instance a heated discussion involving several parties resulted in an enquiry whether Giano II should be sanctioned for their style or tone of comments. I do not believe that the parole was intended to disallow Giano from strongly expressing their views, or to allow opposing parties to use the threat of sanction to discourage Giano from arguing their case (a very foolish premise, it might be concluded), and the wording as is allows for instances of "block shopping". Giano II would still be under sanction for instances of incivility that may be determined as being disruptive.
I shall inform Giano II of this request, but do not anticipate a response (here). I urge the Committee to proceed (or not) independent of a statement by Giano II. LessHeard vanU ( talk) 13:23, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
As the person who initiated the enquiry referred to, I would support such an amendment myself. DDStretch (talk) 13:33, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
The civility policy in no way prevents people from expressing strong views. It just needs to be done in a way that is not nasty. Giano is not being prevented from expressing strong views, but is instead prevented from being uncivil while doing so. You do not need incivility to debate, even when you have strong views. All Giano needs to do in order to avoid sanctions is to treat other editors with more respect. For example he could have explained his objection without saying that his opponent had "the attention span of a gnat", which would have prevented people being concerned about his actions. (1 == 2)Until 13:37, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
In addition to Until(1 ==2)'s point, if Giano took more care to avoid characterising other users (editors and readers) in the way he did, it would help maintain the collaborative nature of wikipedia. It would reduce to a minimum the chance that discussions would get unnecessarily heated or dramatic. The underlying point he was endeavouring to make was made quite reasonably, using rational and calm language (excepting the use of "cognitive deficit"), by another here, for instance. DDStretch (talk) 13:56, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
There seems to be a confusion between incivility and kid gloves. In the same way that Wikipedia is not censored, it should not be necessary to treat every editor as if they are a grade-schooler from a strict Mormon home who will be offended by the word "bother". A workable definition of civility has to be one which will improve our community and be embraced by it, rather than one which allows polite but vexatious people to drive off those with greater knowledge and understanding than they themselves have, by pretending mortal insults in cases of forceful assertion.
If a civility guideline cannot include, influence and inspire people like Giano, I'd argue that it is a bad guideline. And there is also a huge difference in character between what is said close to the encyclopaedia, and what is acceptable in userspace. We've recently had the utterly absurd case of an admin blocking a long-standing contributor for telling him to "get lost" on his own user page. Some part of the community seems incapable of applying Clue in this matter. Guy ( Help!) 20:43, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Wait, guy, so if Giano can't follow the rules on civility, we should get rid of the rules? No, that's ridiculous. If he can't be civil, he needs to go. That simple. He's not specially excepted from the rules, and we don't get to dismiss every violation he makes of them (of which there are numerous) with "zomg treating him with kid gloves". We've given him enough chances. Time to start actually enforcing the rules equitably, including against Giano. ⇒ SWATJester Son of the Defender 23:13, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Concur with Guy, Geogre et al. The civility guideline is hopelessly flawed; it prevents candor and blunt language. All respect to Swat; but I'd much rather toss the civility guidelines out the window than such a fine contributor as Giano. Let us not forget that at all times the first question, the paramount question, should be: what benefits the project? I submit that ridiculously juvenile and narrow definitions of civility, enforced blindly, harm the project immensely. Giano shouldn't have to wear kid gloves or walk on eggshells because some clueless twerps - oh, pardon me, some editors cannot handle blunt phrasing. One puppy's opinion.
KillerChihuahua
?!?
00:47, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Certainly the civility policy can and has been used as a club against users who are blunt like Giano, and there have been admins who are far too willing to block for the slightest little transgression of the civility policy. There's nothing good about either of those things, and indeed such actions are themselves rather uncivil.
I am, however, nonplussed by those editors who insist that we should basically throw the civility policy out the window, or at least not bother to apply it to "good" or "expert" users. I've read many comments complaining about the civility policy, but to my knowledge no one has explained why incivility is ever necessary. I would love to read such an explanation someday. There is nothing wrong with going after another editor's argument in a blunt manner (pointing out errors of logic, fact, or interpretation, or demonstrating inconsistency in a user's approach to a given issue), and indeed doing so will often convince others of your view. But if while doing that one concludes with "which is why you're an idiot" one has; A) Added nothing to the argument; B) Simply angered the other user and inflamed the dispute; C) Made one's argument look worse in the eyes of others. When incivility is directed at newer users by more experienced ones it can also have a chilling effect, since participating at Wikipedia can, at first, be a bit of an intimidating experience to begin with—even for folks with expertise in a particular area.
The Arbs seem to be attempting to pursue a different route with Giano below which seems fine. These general issues will continually come up though, and in the future I'd like to see the partisans of "to hell with civility" explain why it is ever necessary to be uncivil and provide specific examples of occasions when a failure to make an uncivil comment hindered the work of the encyclopedia.-- Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 19:21, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Could the arbitration committee please clarify what has or has not resulted from the final principle and the associated remedy in the IRC case, namely: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/IRC#Policy issues surrounding IRC and Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/IRC#IRC, and what is planned for the future, if anything. The principle in full is:
"The Arbitration Committee has recently been asked by Jimbo Wales to take an expanded role in the governance of IRC. The Committee is formulating policy and procedure changes based on this new role independently from this case. passed 7-1 at 03:48, 9 February 2008 (UTC)"
The remedy in full is:
"Policy and procedure changes regarding Wikipedia IRC channels will be addressed separately by this committee. passed 9-0 with 1 abstention at 03:56, 9 February 2008 (UTC)"
Thank-you. Carcharoth ( talk) 16:40, 26 March 2008 (UTC) Updated 17:16, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
I can state that several other channel ops and I have been working hard to take the communities views in hand when we have been discussing how to handle future behavioural issues in the channel. The first thing we've done is created guidlines for the channel which all users of the channel are aware of. These can be found here. The problems highlighted in the IRC case are mainly because members of the channel didn't understand what was expected of them and the channel operators didn't really know their role in stopping behavioural problems. The operators have now decided to take a more proactive role in the enforcement of channel standards, and all users are aware that if they start discussing people behind their backs, start being offensive or anything else which could be seen from the outside as unacceptable, they'll have their access removed. Obviously sometimes a warning may suffice, but in serious incidents, we'll remove on sight.
What we've also done is made the access list public, so any IRC user can see exactly who has access to the channel. On wiki, we've created User:Cbrown1023/Guidelines (user info) so that everyone is aware exactly who has access to the channel, and who the channel operators are. If there's a concern with someones conduct, then anyone is welcome to contact one of the ops and it will be taken extremely seriously and we'll of course keep you informed of what is happening. At present, we're currently debating the role of non administrators in the channel and whether or not they should keep their access. We've had no consensus either way up to this point, but we'll keep on going highlighting both the benefits and disadvantages.
The channel has moved on a lot since the case and although there hasn't been any direction from ArbCom, the internal running and operation has taken a lot from the case and everything is now much clearer regarding expected standards and routes for ops to take if there are problems. If people have concerns, just contact one of us. I'm sure the arbitration committee would also be willing to hear of problems if the ops haven't dealt with it. Ryan Postlethwaite 17:16, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
"Just contact one of us"..? Er, how? Why are people expected to know the way to CBrowns userspace if they have been treated badly on the channel? Why isn't there a public board in Wikipedia space (linked to from WP:AN and similar) where complaints can be dealt with by senior ops? Bishonen | talk 17:40, 26 March 2008 (UTC).
Given that the remedy the committee passed was that the committee would address this issue, the activity Ryan discusses, while likely meritorious, does not actually fulfill the remedy. Is there a status update as to the committee's activity? GRBerry 17:43, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
First, I think this space should probably be reserved to ask the committee for an update on their views of IRC governance etc., and discussion of Bishonen's excellent question should be moved elsewhere (including my comments below, should someone be so bold as to start such a discussion).
I think a noticeboard for IRC chanops would be an excellent idea. Now, this gets a bit esoteric and lawyerish, but it seems to be the current situation that IRC is recognized as an independent creature, with different rules of conduct and methods of dispute resolution, and that Wikipedia has no authority to mandate any particular channel behavior or dispute resolution process. However, that does not mean that the chanops could not choose for their own convenience to host a noticeboard on Wikipedia. I think a noticeboard is an excellent idea because it will allow issues to be discussed by more than just the ops who happen to be online at a given moment, and it will have archives, including a record of when and why a user was added or removed from the channel that IRC itself does not provide. There already seems to be a sort of noticeboard at User talk:Cbrown1023/Guidelines.
However, hosting the noticeboard and associated policies/contact lists/dispute resolution processes in Wikipedia space presents the same problem it did before; it suggests that anyone can edit it, when in fact only the participants in IRC have a say and only the chanops (appear to) have the final say. So it may be necessary either to host the pages in project space but grant them an exemption from "everyone can edit" or to keep them in user space but raise their profile through linkage or even transclusion. Thatcher 18:10, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm replying here to FT2's response to Carcharoth's basic question why the final principle "The Arbitration Committee has recently been asked by Jimbo Wales to take an expanded role in the governance of IRC. The Committee is formulating policy and procedure changes based on this new role independently from this case" (passed 7-1) and its associated remedy "Policy and procedure changes regarding Wikipedia IRC channels will be addressed separately by this committee" (passed 9-0), have both come to naught. My post goes to clarifying the committee's final principles and remedies as they relate to en-admins IRC case—it's not about FT2's block of Giano—therefore I post it here, in preference to drowning it at the now extremely copious discussion of that block on WP:AE (most of it posted by FT2). Yes, I know I'm not supposed to post in this section, which is for arbs, but it seems my only chance of being heard. (I won't post again, whether or not you remove me from this spot, Thatcher. This has taken me much too much time as it is.)
Like probably most people, I feel at an awful disadvantage when attempting to discuss or debate with FT2, since he seems impressively able to write about 100 lines in the space of time that it takes your average wikipedian to write 20, and me to write 5. (And NYBrad to write 70 or so.) My efforts in the direction of debate with FT2 have always literally drowned. But I will try just once to do my own clarification. I made an effort to come to grips with the background to FT2's new guidelines for IRC (at this moment not available in CBrown's space, but mirrored at [7])—these guidelines being the only mouse that has so far been born from the laboring mountains of the IRC case, and it's final principles and remedies. The background to the guidelines, as offered by FT2 in channel to anybody interested, turned out to be an edited log of a discussion between FT2 and some 6 or 10 channel users (by FT2's own estimate) from February 25-26. I have it here. It's been edited by FT2 to remove irrelevancies, and consists–well, I don't have any counting tool that will work for this— but at my rough estimate, the discussion consists to at least 80% of FT2 himself talking, mainly describing how well the channel works now:
I discussed these matters with FT2 in PM on IRC several times, before he actually sent me the above log to look at, and I was rather shocked by his descriptions of that log. Here's a snippet of our discussion from March 5, posted with permission.
To recapitulate: What has happened with the policy and procedures of the IRC en-admins channel since the IRC case was closed, then, is that there are now new guidelines for it in CBrown's userspace (update: no, actually at this moment in Martinp23's userspace), authored (largely) by FT2, and emphasizing how well the channel currently works.
[8] The origin of the new guidelines was an IRC discussion, massively dominated by FT2 himself, on February 25-26 between FT2 and a few admins. So much for the expanded role in the governance of IRC that the ArbCom undertook in its final principle. So much for its new oversight as foreseen in the remedy it voted for. May we please have some commentary from some of the arbs besides FT2—from those that put hand to keyboard and voted for a new role of arbcom with respect to IRC—voted for changes in policy and procedure, changes to be addressed by the committee—voted 9-0 and 7-1? FloNight? Newyorkbrad? Paul August? Clarification please? Especially, clarification of that which is never clarified by anybody, but always sidestepped — the role of James Forrester as envisaged by arbcom — would be appreciated to the point of jubilation.
Bishonen |
talk
16:14, 27 March 2008 (UTC).
“ | Users found publishing logs will be banned from all Wikimedia channels. | ” |
Not that I want to stir trouble but I would like to remind people the above rule. Be careful what you post here as this is a public place to publish things. I just don't want to see anyone get banned.
-- Cat chi? 21:46, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I'd make the point, speaking to the notes and log above, that the current en-admins channel does have a wide membership in terms of its views, and I think despite the thinking of some that the diversity of the community's views are actually well represented there. A recent incident (well documented elsewhere so no need to do so here) resulted in strident criticism of the channel's operations, and as a critic myself of the initial handling of the matter, I was happy with how it was ultimately resolved. Orderinchaos 11:08, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
"Succinctly"? LOL, come on, don't be so quick to dudgeon just because it's me. You're Patient Guy with everybody else, remember? Thank you for your answer. Will you clarify it a little bit more? I guess there may not indeed be community consensus that the ArbCom should exercise control over the channel, but it's my impression that there is/was ArbCom consensus for it [9] (with the single exception of Paul August). Your own support for the principle "Policy and procedure changes regarding Wikipedia IRC channels will be addressed separately by this committee" is admittedly very hedged, being predicated on it being "unfair to the parties" to keep the IRC case open any longer (not that I quite see what one thing has to do with the other — did Paul's abstention keep the case open any extra time?) As a short version, would you agree with this description of the current state of affairs: the ArbCom is, with the exception of FT2, individually and collectively in flight from taking responsibilty for the principle+remedy in question? Are you all waiting for somebody else to fulfill the passive "input should be sought"? Bishonen | talk 01:29, 29 March 2008 (UTC).
The saga over IRC is not new and the abuse grew since its inception. It first came to public light in the Fall 2006. The IRC got so frightened by the public reaction and by the evidence seeing the light that it called it a "coup d'etat attempt" ( this post made my day). Shortly the mess called Giano-I ArbCom was dubbed (aptly but imprecisely) an uprising of writing admins while in fact it was an uprising of Wikipedia writing community against the Wikipedia being "run" by its self-appointed ever-chatting in secret "elite" that dubbed that very community as "fickle and ill-informed populace".
Once some facts came out in the open, the 2007 passed with IRC resisting to give ground and claiming that everything is good to much of the community disgust. However, what was originally seen as "IRC" got developed into a new mentality. This culminated in Durova case and another messy discovery of the existence of the secret "lists" run on Wikia servers where good editors were investigated the Wikipedia Review style by a newly arrived layer of self-appointed "leaders and protectors of Wikipedia". Each of these messes brought some good revelations (and good desysoppings) but their usefulness by far exceeded that.
They where eye openers. Giano-I case revealed the phenomenon, the Durova case showed the extent to which the malfeasance penetrated. It was in this context that a mysterious and never heard of user (just like the author of Giano-I case) submitted a new case (originally also dubbed Giano) which was renamed "IRC" and portrayed as the case about "warring over WP:WEA" when editors of the "fickle and ill-informed" side tried to make the page reflecting the reality while David Gerard and his friends insisted on explicit rights over the Wikipedia page and on the the hypocritically convenient and deliberate lack of clarity over the connection between #admins and the Wikipedia
The ArbCom for whatever reason accepted a case over David Gerard's WP:WEA page just as quickly as it accepted the original (Giano-I) case. ArbCom then produced a decision with a bunch of findings and remedies totally disconnected from each other. Nevertheless, the committee took it upon itself to address the IRC problems at a later time leaving the community under an impression that " Policy and procedure changes regarding Wikipedia IRC channels will be addressed separately by this committee". Community hoped to see something meaningful, like a workgroup proposed by Flo. Later, "no consensus from ArbCom was found for this proposal" (note passive voice).
Soon the community "was told" that the adequate measures "were taken" through the channel's "self-policing" decided through "discussion" that occurred... nowhere else but at #admins itself. A paradox? I happened to have seen this "discussion". It was basically one arb/chanellop saying things and others nodding. This is a strange kind of "discussion" where an input from those "allegedly" abused by #admins is glaringly lacking. But let's see whether the channel improved and the problems are now "addressed" like we've heard time and again. Here is a random (not exclusive by any means) list of events (note recent dates) that took place at #admins and how they were "addressed".
(To avoid more red faces, I did not name some of the users and only provided the names in the cases that have been already discussed onwiki).
Now, we clearly see that the channel remains abusive. We also see that the despite some claims to the contrary, the current system of "good ombudsmanship" does not work. One does not need to be exceptionally smart to explain why:
I am sure that immediately upon my posting this will be discussed at the channel whose name you guessed right or even at one of the other "less leaky" channels. Surprisingly, I predict that the discussion will be again not on the substance but on the leaks themselves, just like in the Moreschi's incident.
We walked a long way since the Fall of 2006. On one hand we are by far better aware that backroom activity is thriving. OTOH, more people are now involved. A whole bunch now are on some channel: the #admins, "that other less leaky one" or one of its twins. Among those who are not (as well as who are) a whole bunch are on some "lists", yet unpurged Arbcom-L, a second (or third or more) Arbcom-L, the WR-style "investigations" list, etc (note: I do not have anything against the anti-harassment list particularly if it is held on topic). This list/channel tradition in addition to a direct devastating effect on the project, created a secondary effect. There are now POV-pushing and nationalist e-lists and IM networks. Instead of wikiprojects (many of which are dying), we have IRC-projects that are not transparent (e.g., the USRoads IRC related to another recent Arbcom case.) This atmosphere procreated by #admins is now corroding the good of Wikipedia.
Yes, people can (and will) talk privately. But we should not encourage it directly and, most importantly, should not sanction abuse at the officially affiliated IRC channels (by refusing to act or pretend that all is well), or disclaim the affiliation but refuse to dissociate either (cake have/eat) procreating this deliberate, hypocritical and morally indefensible limbo.
Clean up the #admins in a meaningful way or remove all links to it and let the folks have their chat, just like the team tags do! This all are not new ideas and have been stated in some form multiple times. However, please don't talk the "channel is now good and reformed". It just does not cut it and the editors would not believe such claims anymore anyway.
I rarely use IRC (I've been on four times this year) but spend quite an amount of time on wiki, and am somewhat removed from the issues complained of. I'd like to volunteer to be one of the five named admins if the proposal below is passed. Of course I will not take offense if not chosen. Stifle ( talk) 11:32, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
The editing restriction imposed on Giano II ( talk · contribs) in this case shall be subject to special enforcement. The Committee shall name up to five administrators who, together with the sitting members of the Committee, shall act as special enforcers for this restriction. Only these special enforcers shall be authorized to determine whether a violation of the restriction has occurred, and to issue blocks if one has.
Any administrator that reverses, modifies, or otherwise interferes with a block imposed by one of the special enforcers under this provision shall be summarily desysopped.
This provision shall supersede the existing enforcement provisions in the case.
As I seem unable to edit the main page of this charade [12] - which George William Whatever has edited, I suggest some remark pertaining to the discussion here [13] is added to this incompetent admin's edit. Giano ( talk) 19:00, 1 September 2008 (UTC)