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i assume by JohnsAr's focusing on external linking that he has agreed that wikis may not be used for citation (and so will no longer be supporting edits like these). with regards to external linking, i generally don't agree with using wikis, especially if they are neither notable nor reputed for being a resource in that subject field, and certainly not when it is a vehicle for original research and unencyclopaedic, highly opinionated viewpoints. i don't believe that the majority of wikis would pass WP:EL (that includes John's website wikiislam.org which he edits frequently), the only real exception i can envisage is where the wiki linked to is both notable and reputable as a good resource for information, implements standards similar to Wikipedia, and would be considered acceptable for external linking in a featured article. those kind of wikis are extremely rare, which is why i don't believe the floodgates for generally accepting wiki external links should be opened. ITAQALLAH 07:42, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
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i detailed above what i interpret a suitable wikilink to be... although even then the problem of factually dubious information or original research persists. maybe something more akin to Larry Sanger's project (citizendium) would be suitable? you don't find websites based on that kind of model frequently, if at all, so perhaps it's merely an exceptional instance. in general, then, i agree with Blueboar.
how the clause relates to wikiislam? well i detailed at the beginning of the section that it seems to be a project started by users on the ' faithfreedom.org' forum, incidently their base for collaborating on articles on wikiislam.org (also hosted under the domain wiki.faithfreedom.org). i don't believe that the wiki is committed to providing accurate, scholarly and verified material (as would be expect under WP:RS) per having looked at the articles in general (problems related to style, referencing, verification, a lot of material copy-pasted from unreliable websites etc) and at a few FFI posts ( [1] [2] [3] [4]; 'Whale' = User:JohnsAr). these points suggest to me that it is unlikely that one would see material adhering to the general standards outlined in WP:EL (and subsequently WP:RS). a number of wikis, whatever their ideological, political, religious etc. leaning will no doubt be of the same essence as wikiislam, in that it will be a vehicle for opinion without regard for academic standards, and they in the same way as wikiislam are not really suitable for being used as external links in my opinion. ITAQALLAH 14:57, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Given what I am being told about the site's history and unreliability of information, I think my initial impression was correct ... WikiIslam should NOT be used as a source, and should NOT be listed as an "External Link" either. And yes, Johns, that does mean that 100s of articles here are linking to wikis incorrectly and should be changed. I doubt you will accept my reasoning... but you asked for a neutral opinion and I gave it to you after hearing from both sides. Unless someone else (ie not JohnsAr or Itaqalla) has anything to say, that should close the matter. If you want to keep fighting about it, do so else-where please. In any case For me the discussion is over. Thanks for listening. Blueboar 17:03, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Take it to Dispute Resolution. WP:R3O, WP:RFC, WP:Mediation and then the final step: ArbCom. We need to try to keep policies as general as possible. But another thing to think about is.... if everyone is against the inclusion of a link... then perhaps there is a problem with it. Remember: No Wikipedia article needs an external links section. In fact, they are discouraged by policy. Explicitly allowing a class of link would be contrary to the philosophy. On the other hand, SOME external links are helpful. But I'd rather see the link left out of the article completely then see an edit war break out. --- J.S ( t| c) 03:23, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I have been using sources (1.) written by renowned academic scholars (2.)peer-reviewed and (3.) published by university presses. There is no, even one, academic encyclopedia which contains links to such websites. I will definitely consistently remove any such links, either from faithfreedom, or Islamophobe, etc etc. To my mind, they are all garbage no matter whether they are Muslim friendly or not. This is what I promise I'll do. There is almost no topic on which the academic scholars haven't written. -- Aminz 10:25, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Currently there are about 11000 links from wikipedia to YouTube. Many of them are being used in articles about as sources. I added a note about avoiding YouTube... but perhapses there is a better way to say it or a better place to put it? There's a big discussion about this on WP:AN right now. ---
J.S (
t|
c)
16:57, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
You must alos understand that many famous people or groups, such as Weird Al or Nintendo Wii, posted copies of commertials or music videos on youtube. So, even though there are other ways to find those videos, this is the best way for the averge person. You can't put as a sourse "The Nintendo wii advert that has been spotted on cartoon network and history channel during the hopurs of 1 am- 2 am on november 18"--
68.192.188.142
19:15, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
I think it was touched upon before, but I am seeking some clarification. I am of the opinion that including statements of campaign managers as if they were the statements of the candidates is - at best - misleading. Many campaign managers (and unidentifed 'staffers') are political operative who may not be speaking with the candidate's own words.
I think it best to weed them out of entries about the candidate they represent, relying instead on statements made by the candidate him/herself. This tends to be irrefutable, and would cut down the edit wars considerably, as they are rather contentious and diverting. While I understand that newspapers may quote aforementioned folk, it is also newspapers that finally endorse one candidate or another. WP does not - and should not - allow the same to happen here. Primary and secondary source allowances aside, the potential for abuse is enormous.
As well, there seems to be some discussion as to whether offline material regarding the candidate should be allowed if one can 'provide the source, author and page.' I think this view to be skewed and almost certainly lazy research. We live in an age where most information can be found readily online, so long as a little brain power is applied. After all, this is an online encyclopedia. Sources cited should be readily available online as well.
This becomes even more of a consideration when we consider that less than scrupulous folk can astroturf and viral-market propaganda in the form of a quoted, offline source. There are other problems with offline sources, and I am merely pointing out one aspect of the issue as it applies to current political campaigns. There is a color of authority that attends cited information, and a great many times (at least in political campaign entries), these sources are incorrectly attributed, paraphrased, or sometimes simply manufactured.
I would appreciate some insights into this matter. I am interested in learning how to approach these issues with sure knowledge, and not a gut feeling. Arcayne 00:48, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Reverted... actually some of the edits were quite good in my opinion, but taken as a lump I have to disagree. Some of them i definitely disagree with. For example, one of the things cut was the bit about Wikipedia itself (and by extension other wikis) not being a reliable source ... which I think is very important to include. May I suggest discussing each change one at a time? Blueboar 23:31, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
We seem to once again be edit waring on the status of this page. Omegatron contends that there is consensus to demote this to an essay. I contend that there is consensus to keep it as a guideline (although I agree that it need work). One problem is that this debate is somewhat spread out... with those for demoting posting in one area and those for keeping posting in another. I know that "polls are evil"... but the only way to get a clear sense of how people are falling on the issue is to consolidate the debate. So... I am going to propose a poll. Please add your signature to which ever option you support (they are not mutually exclusive, so if you agree with more than one, add your name to any that apply). Add comments if you feel the need to do so, and feel free to add a new option if none of the ones I post reflect your oppinion. Thanks Blueboar 01:32, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
A guideline is any page that is: (1) actionable and (2) authorized by consensus. ... People are sometimes tempted to call a vote on a guideline, but this is a bad idea because it polarizes the issue (see Voting is evil for details). Instead, a guideline is made by listening to objections and resolving them.
Wikipedia works by building consensus. This is done through polite discussion and negotiation, in an attempt to develop a consensus. If we find that a particular consensus happens often, we write it down as a guideline, to save people the time having to discuss the same principles over and over.
Option 10) Merge everything salvageable into WP:V or another policy.
I honestly don't think the problem is defining whether we need "reliable sources," but simply that WP is woefully behind regarding what can and should be considered a reliable source. Should this be guideline or even policy? Undoubtedly. Should it be before we make it into something that makes logical sense? Of course not. -- badlydrawnjeff talk 16:56, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
I am condsidering option 9, Promote into a policy rather than a guidline, because we need to tighten up on sourcing. I wonder if it is best as a separate page here, or as part of WP:V and WP:ATT. Thoughts? Tom Harrison Talk 20:14, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I am honestly mystified how anyone could seriously propose promoting this page to policy. I'm not opposed to a sourcing policy, but this page is so fundamentally flawed and broken as to be unsuitable as the foundation for any such policy. It is replete with inaccuracies and poor judgments. To oppose this page is not, as some would have it, to oppose sourcing, or to make an end run around NOR and V. It's to oppose a bad guideline that gives bad guidance. Nobody is seriously proposing a complete lack of sourcing or of consideration of what a good source is. The question is merely whether this page actually describes those issues well. It doesn't. It absolutely, 100% doesn't. Phil Sandifer 06:37, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
I generally agree with Phil that as the guideline currently stands, there is no way it can be policy...but it should be, and egregious violations of a reliable sources policy should be a blockable offense. It is mandatory that examples of what are and what are not reliable sources needs to be presented, in a simple and easy to follow manner. It is an easy case...simply show what are reliable sources and what aren't by providing examples of each...if that is 20 or 30 examples, then that is fine. The rest of the wording on the page simply needs to discuss the best ways to determine a reliable source and why this is important to the project. I suppose I can work on a draft in my userspace in the next couple of weeks.-- MONGO 09:09, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
<sticking in $ .02> It has come about that policies and guidelines first present a sort of nutshell or carefully worded, brief description and then expand it and present the reasoning. It has often been discussed that Reliable Sources should include the elements which, when appearing together, constitute a reliable source. To my thinking these elements are: Attributability, declared legal liability (sometimes by implication), degree of establishment (Ford Motor Company better than Bide-a-wee Biscuits) and an established history (trackrecord). If we placed this sort of reasoning early in the guideline, I think it would be helpful. Terryeo 17:39, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
So there are three questions. Should the content of this page be the foundation of a sourcing policy? While this page has some good information that can go in a policy, we might do better to start from scratch. Should we have a sourcing policy separate from what is covered in our policies on verifiability and attribution? and should the sourcing policy (or WP:V and WP:ATT) be enforced by blocks? We already enforce sourcing for living people. We might next expand that to other areas: on-going enterprises, or numerical information like populations. Any expansion like this could have its own page like WP:BLP, or a section in attribution: "All population figures must be cited to a reliable source. Removing uncited changes to population figures is exempt from 3RR. Persistently adding them is grounds for blocking." Tom Harrison Talk 14:32, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Cross posted to WP:RS, WP:OR and Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine. There is a dispute going on at Talk:Depo Provera#Disadvantages and side effects WP:NOR violations. One user found primary sources, reliable journal articles, that said depo provera may do certain negative things. Another user is disputing this, citing original research. The argument, I guess, is that the 1st user is interpreting the source, and drawing conclusions not published anywhere else. The studies only dealt with rats (not humans), and there is nothing in the patient drug information (or any other way to verify the claims outside of the studies in question). The logic goes that making a connection that a study dealing with rats may effect the use of this drug in humans as a contraception is original research. Furthermore, it may be pushing a POV that this drug is unsafe by mentioning these studies (that are not verified outside of the individual study, and not mentioned in patient drug information). I feel like I am repeating myself, sorry. The counter argument is that a) citing primary sources is a good thing b) the claims are cited and verifiable and reliable, fulfilling almost every wikipedia criteria for inclusion. So I guess there are two issues. Is using the information in this manner original research? And is it giving undue weight to a minority view by citing obscure studies like this? Sorry if I am missing anything or misrepresenting a side. Please direct comments to Talk:Depo Provera#Disadvantages and side effects WP:NOR violations. Thanks!-- Andrew c 03:31, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
There is an interesting discussion at Talk:Operation Minsk, where we are discussing what to do if academic sources are contradicting each other. Comments about solution appreciated.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 18:15, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
"Convergence of the two schools over time", or the replacement of one school with another, as discussed in the article " historical revisionism", which also might throw some light on the issue -- Philip Baird Shearer 15:17, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I ran into an interesting situation recently that got me thinking. Very often Wikipedia's most valuable role isn't merely telling us things we didn't know, it's also telling us which things we thought we knew about the subject aren't correct. With that in mind, I'd like to ask: when the point of discussing a certain claim is to identify that it is actually an urban legend, misunderstanding or misconception, should we require that that urban legend, misunderstanding or misconception be published by as reliable a source as we would require for anything we were presenting as true, or at least not debunked?
A true but simplified example: Two Congressmen were censured by the House for inappropriate behavior. One chose to face the main body of the House, thus turning him away from the Speaker of the House who was reading the censure. The other chose to face the Speaker of the House who was reading the censure, thus turning him away from the main body of the House. Memories of politicians being as subject they are to unconscious (and sometimes conscious) "reinterpretation", the second Congressman's action mutated from "faced the Speaker who was reading the censure and not the rest of the House" to "turned his back on the House" to "turned his back and ignored the censure as it was being read."
Now, in this case, it was easy to find a reliable source -- contemporary reports from the New York Times -- to refute the idea that the Congressman had "ignored" the censure as it was read. However, it was not as easy finding a reliable source which discussed the idea that he did do so! It's a widespread belief but principally widespread among those whom Wikipedia would not regard as a reliable source -- highly partisan websites, and private blogs. In a situation like this, it seems Wikipedia has three choices:
I feel that the third makes the most sense. -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:52, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
What about something like slog, the blog maintained by The Stranger? (The Stranger is a Seattle alternative weekly, probably the most important chronicler of the city's youth culture, and quite good on other culture and politics as well.) It would seem to me that the pieces in there that are signed by the newspaper's staff are exactly as attributable as items in the paper itself (so the usual blog issue of not knowing who wrote it is gone). On the other hand, they are probably less subject to editorial review than articles published in the paper. - Jmabel | Talk 08:43, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
This guideline currently lists the IMDB as a reliable source for movie credits. I propose this be removed. IMDB credits are just as unreliable as anything else on the IMDB, and often user submitted. 6 years ago, I uploaded the full cast and crew of a Christopher Walken film called " The Prophecy 3: The Ascent" into the IMDB. As a joke, I added popular B-movie actress Linnea Quigley to the cast, credited as a "Hooker". The IMDB fully accepted my addition. Quigley is still listed on that page (although she has been downgraded to "uncredited"). This credit is now also listed all over the net. Quigley was even asked about the role in this interview: "You had a small part as a hooker in The Prophecy 3 in 2000, did you have any scenes with Christopher Walken and what was he like? I don’t think unless they used old footage that I’m in Prophecy 3. I have to see it sometime but I wish I could have worked with them. Damn, if you have seen it and I’m in it let me know." Mad Jack 22:16, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Moved from elsewhere to bring this to everyones attention. ALR 23:07, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
I was bold and created Wikipedia:Reliable sources/rewrite and Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources/rewrite. The former doesn't say much right now, and I suggest only adding things which we have a high degree of consensus on to it. It's talk page is divided up pretty much like the current WP:RS's table of contents. Assuming people like this idea (which they might not), we can still put anything we don't keep in the guideline in essays. Armedblowfish ( talk| mail) 16:57, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
The draft at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/rewrite is now reasonably mature, although it needs a section on convenience links. I'd welcome some views because I think that the rest is getting ready to port it across to the main page. ALR 08:41, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
At the same time that the discussions here are going on and the above rewrite by ALR is being done, also a replacement for WP:V, WP:NOR as well as WP:RS is being discussed on Wikipedia:Attribution. Please give your opinion on that attempt to reduce the burden of an ever growing mass of policy. Harald88 07:42, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Can [5], a roadgeek fansite, be a reliable source for the definition of a ghost ramp? If not, what happens if the poll on talk:ghost ramp finishes with a majority in favor? -- NE2 19:49, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
On the Dave Ramsey page, someone keeps using this review of one of his books from Amazon.com as a source for all sorts of criticsms, some not even talked about in the article. Would a review from Amazon be considered a reliable source? I don't see why, but can I get a consensus?
Nobody appears to have summed up the results of the straw poll up above. The poll had some methodology problems, for example it provided choices that were not mutually exclusive so a person who favored two or more choices could either vote for more than one choice or not have his or her position adequately captured, and no guidance was provided on this. All the same there's enough there to get a rough picture of what participating editors think ought to happen:
The most popular choices, a tie with 11 each, were KEEP AS GUIDELINE and KEEP BUT MAJORLY REWRITE. The third most popular choice PROMOTE TO POLICY received 9 votes. All of these choices are reasonably construed as "supportive" of the guideline. If we remove from the pool of those three choices the double counting of editors who split their votes, you get a total of 27 unique editors.
When we do the same figuring with the choices reasonably construed as "not supportive" of the guideline, DEMOTE TO ESSAY, TRASH AND REPLACE, and MERGE EVERYTHING SALVAGEABLE INTO WP:V, we get a total of 4 unique editors. The remaining choice REWRITE WHERE NEEDED is neither supportive nor not supportive of the guideline as far as I can tell. It has 5 votes, but if you look at the votes they all expressed support either by also voting for one of the aforementioned "supportive" choices, or by expressing support (ArmedBlowFish) in this particular vote.
In summary, I'm making the case that, of those editors that participated in the poll, 4 are "not supportive" whereas at least 27 are "supportive" of the guideline. Those not supportive are in a distinct minority. On this basis I propose removing both the "disputed" and "protected" tags from this guideline and letting editors go back to improving it in good faith. DanielM 13:45, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
PS: All my tabulations were done informally and are of the "back-of-the-napkin" variety. I think I was accurate but I welcome any corrections to my counts. DanielM 13:47, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
The rewrite is problematic, e.g. "Replicability — Can the conclusions of the source be reached using the information available or is there any indication of gaps in the thinking or process of derivation." It doesn't matter if the NYT article displays a "gap in thinking." It's a reliable source, period. And "process of derivation" doesn't really mean anything. SlimVirgin (talk) 04:12, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Following the example of Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability/Religioustolerance.org I created a centralized discussion regarding salon.com as a source for Wikipedia after a dispute arose on using salon.com for the article Sathya Sai Baba. See Talk:Salon.com/as_a_source_for_Wikipedia. I intend to make more centralized discussions of specific sources. Andries 09:40, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
With centralized discussion about specific sources, I mean that the generic dicussions about specific sources should not be fragmented over diverse article talk pages. The contributors may not be aware that more or less the same discussion is taking place on other article talk pages. Andries 14:41, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Some editors, including admins User:Fred Bauder and User:MONGO, have suggested that peer-reviewed academic publications from prestigious universities are not acceptable under WP:RS if the author subsequently becomes politically active in an area they define as 'disinformation'.
The specific case is Dr Ganser of the ETH Zurich who wrote a peer-reviewed book on Operation Gladio. Two years later he also wrote a chapter for a book on 9/11. Does this make his previous work unacceptable under WP:RS? Lord Seabhcán of Baloney 20:25, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I don't care if this guideline is redundant. It should be kept as a guideline. There is a distressing seepage of cruft onto Wikipedia, and we could use every single rule, guideline etc. to stop it. If you wanna fight redundancy and meaninglessness, then go fight it where it should be fought.. out there among the crufty pseudo-articles. Thanks, -- Ling.Nut 20:39, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
What do people think we should do with something like this? I have no reason at all to doubt a word this person is saying, but "My father translated and read the names and dates to me as I wrote them down in 1974…My father's mother, Teodora Vazquez Molenar Gonzalez was close to Pasqual as their mothers were sisters" isn't exactly what we usually accept. - Jmabel | Talk 02:55, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
"Reliable source" does not mean "flawless and omniscient".
And what does any of this have to do with Nobel (title of section). - Jmabel | Talk 00:03, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Before we can move forward with any rewrite, I think we need to address a fundamental question: What exactly are guidelines? Are guidelines a set of "rules" which should be followed, or are they "advice" that can be ignored?
Ideally, Policies should be considered as "rules" to be followed, and guidelines should be considered "advice" on how to implement specific sections of a policy. Thus, WP:RS should be a page of advice on how to impliment the rule stated in WP:V (ie: that statements made in articles should be cited to reliable sources.) Ideally, editors come here, read what we have to say, and go off and make their own determinations as to how reliable things are.
Unfortunately, that is not how guidelines are used in reality. When disputes arise, editors quote gidelines as if they were rules. This is understandable. Because policies tend to be very broad in scope, they do not cover specifics. But when a question or dispute over specifics arises, editors want to know how to resolve them. They want a rule that tells them if something is OK or not. In the case of this guideline, editors want some place where they can go to determine whether a given source is reliable or not. Look at the typical discussion on this page... most of the discussions start with someone posting a question such as: "Is source A a reliable source in article B?" In other words, the editors who come here don't want advice... they want a determination (to be cynical, they often don't just want a determination, they want one that in in sync with their own POV, but that is another issue).
To sum up... guidelines often are written as advice, but they are used as rules.
So the big question for us is... do we go with the ideal and write advice, or do we go with reality and write a set of rules? My personal oppinion is that we need to do something in-between. The bulk of any guideline should continue to be advice... but we should be clear that there are a few rules, and state them clearly. The advice part needs to be written as advice... It should be couched in flexible terms that encourages the reader to think on his or her own and reach their own conclusions. The rules part needs to be written as rules ... blunt, clear and concise, with little "wiggle room" or interpretation. Rules should basically repeat what is stated on the policy pages, with perhaps a bit of expansion as it relates to the subject of the guideline.
For example: As advice, I would include something like: "When a dispute about the reliablility of a source arises, editors should first attempt to resolve the issue on the article talk page or on the project page relating to that article. Often disputes over sources are actually disputes over POV, and can be resolved by rephrasing the statement the citation is being used to support as the opinion of the source." (Not really good wording... but you get the idea). As a rule, I would include the following: "As is stated in WP:V, 'Self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources.' This is Wikipedia policy and should always be followed. Such sources may be used in articles about themselves, (ie articles about the book, website or blog, or when another article directly discusses the book, website or blog.) Such sources may also be used when the author can be confirmed to be a well respected expert writing in his own field of experties." (again... the wording is not perfect, but you get the idea).
OK... that's my view... what's yours? Blueboar 19:24, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
If anyone is interested, I think a short discussion of how real encyclopedia editors and other academics make and verify credible references might be in order. Entire books have been written about this topic, some straying far into metaphysics, but let's just cover the basics.
There is no such thing as an utterly definitive reference. All must be subjected to a balancing test. Many ingredients go into the soup and all must be tasted. Here are a few:
About this time, you are wondering how in the world any citation can meet all these criteria. Short answer: Few do. Certainly, in the world of popular culture, you are not likely to get anything nearly as good as this standard. Deal with it. Either refuse to accept articles on such topics or lower citation standards for them. There really isn't much choice.
Try to keep in mind that none of this is remotely fun. All the fun of writing for publication comes from actually writing the article. All that boring research in the stacks is hard on the eyes and taxes one's patience. You cannot really hope to do it without access to a good university library. Most of what's available online gratis is garbage. If you have access to certain databases, you may do better but most of the important stuff is only in print -- or worse, on fiche.
I close with a serious caution. Most of us are simply not qualified to judge the merit of most citations. In order to do this, you need to be qualified in the field. I am a generalist, with very broad experience that cuts across many fields. Still, I would hesitate to make a final statement on any citation not in a field in which I have deep experience -- which such are rather few.
I've said it before: Let's try not to reinvent the wheel. Citing sources is a discipline that's evolved over a very long time and has had many hands in the development. There are many authoritative references on the topic. If you intend to develop a rigorous, comprehensive citation policy, you need to start by sourcing the claims you make here. John Reid ° 11:34, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
A vast improvement. John Reid ° 09:21, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Oh, okay. We're not trying to meet academic standards for peer-reviewed journal articles. We're just trying to write the best articles possible and support them as best we can. Sorry; for a minute there, I thought we were serious about all this reliable sources bumf.
If we're not going to try to reinvent the wheel and streamline the process of researching and verifying citations, then we can scale back to what is practical in an open community full of untrained editors. I made this suggestion before but it didn't catch fire. I honestly do believe people would rather play at academia and force some random collection of "rules" into policy, trying to cover the entire field of human knowledge with straight lines and wobbly restrictions. If I'm wrong, I'll try again.
No matter what, every citation must be evaluated on its own merits. There is no bypassing this. No amount of huffing and puffing is going to result in a short, easy-to-read standard against which every citation can be measured. You may not like this, but yes, every single citation is an opportunity for a little bitty war. You say it's okay, I say it's not, we argue, we cite more sources to support our views. The merits of the individual citation in its individual context absolutely trump any project-wide standard.
Not only that, we must face up realistically to the fact that some articles are going to be better sourced than others. Worthwhile articles can and should be written on topics where fair sources are all that are available. If we thrash out some high standard for "reliable" sources, we cut off all lesser ones. If we settle for a minimum standard, we fail to push for the best available when we have many from which to choose. The only thing crazier than trying to set one bar for the entire project is to try to set a zillion little bars, one each for every category of article -- here, in one central space. Most editors will simply ignore this effort. You take, for example, Classical Music. Editors who work in that area have no interest at all in this general effort; they will ignore it, too, if it conflicts with the system they have already settled upon.
With this in mind, all that remains of general, project-wide interest is some sort of rudimentary source rating scheme. Having admitted that some sources are better than others, I propose a simple grading system: A, B, and C.
Go to articles one at a time; check sources given one at a time; and grade them appropriately if you think you have enough understanding to do so. Then move on. If somebody else changes the rating, let it go. In fact, I will say that if you are here, you almost certainly have a generalist bent of mind, which means that although you may have a better grasp of why it is important to have some sort of project-wide standards for sources, any specialist is probably a better judge than you are in his specific area. So let it go.
There is no point at all in warring over a source's grade so long as there are hundreds of thousands of unrated sources in the project. When all sources have grades and you want to dispute another editor's change to one of your grades, do so politely; argue your case rationally and on individual merits. Do not hope to kill the entire beast on this one page in one week.
That's all. John Reid ° 08:29, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
There; I've documented the process and the series of templates. See Source grading. I've also included a new placeholder template for use when editors simply can't agree. John Reid ° 09:19, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Please make that comment at Wikipedia talk:Source grading. The short answer is no; just remove it. John Reid ° 11:01, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Few types of sources make me more uncomfortable than those of any stripe that rely upon strawman arguments, innuendo, ad hominem arguments, etc. My opinion is they cheapen Wikipedia's reliability as an overall resource, and they furthermore exacerbate partisanship. Is there any way we could tighten the requirements surrounding partisan or religious sources to ensure they at least have a shred of indisputable fact in them? I have seen pages of different stripes with unsubstantiated rants supporting them, which seem to weaken Wikipedia's overall credibility. Encyclopedias stake their reputations on being factual, not opinionated, at least traditionally. Just the facts ma'am.-- FidesetRatio 03:37, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Please note that WP:EL has been revised... there is one section that may impact this guideline or the various rewrites being drafted:
This is the first time that I can think of where factually inaccurate material has been discussed in such a explicitly negative way in a guideline. OUR guideline certainly doesn't (nor the draft rewrites that might replace it). Given this, Perhaps the time has come for us to address the issue of sources that contain factually inaccurate material as well.
I know that we have to be careful not to contradict the priciples expressed in WP:NPOV... but I think we could state something similar to what is on WP:EL. I.E. any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research should not be considered reliable. Any thoughts on this? Blueboar 19:12, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Maybe Wikipedia needs some sort of quality-control mechanism. I'm a reporter, and if my source gives me bad information, I still get killed by my readers, even if it wasn't my fault the information was misleading. What do you think about banning political or religious propaganda as reliable sources, save for if we are discussing say Socialist, Fascist, Communist, Catholic, atheist propaganda, etc.? Propaganda doesn't require any factual basis to it, and my journalistic instincts say that a third-party, non-partisan source needs to be provided to verify any opinion-based claims. If you say that so-and-so belongs to a certain group, you had better have independed verification from a non-partisan source, such as a reputable newspaper, journal, etc., otherwise letting that slide allows Wikipedia's articles to degenerate to the level of trash and uselessness. With Citizendium on the horizon, Wikipedia needs to be competitive, or suffer Nupedia's fate. Contributors and readers will go elsewhere if they don't trust Wikipedia's content.-- FidesetRatio 03:13, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
On the change to WP:EL: Seems utterly misguided to judge this at the level of a site. By this logic, we can't link IMDB for basic info on the cast of a film because it may have inaccurate or misleading reviews; we can't link a newspaper because it runs misleading personals ads; etc. Surely this cannot mean what it says. - Jmabel | Talk 00:25, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
On FidesetRatio's remarks: Do I read you as saying that centrist, capitalist (and perhaps Protestant?) viewpoints are trusted and other viewpoints are inherently "propaganda"? Are you saying, for example, that we should distrust George Orwell as a source because he was a socialist? No thanks. The issue is intellectual honesty, not someone's politics. For example, I trust the BBC, Wall Street Journal, The Nation, and The National Review about equally on factual reporting, which is to say I assume them all to be trying to get their facts right, and usually succeeding, at least in outline. Conversely, I don't trust Fox News any more than Stalinist-era Pravda. - Jmabel | Talk 00:25, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
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i assume by JohnsAr's focusing on external linking that he has agreed that wikis may not be used for citation (and so will no longer be supporting edits like these). with regards to external linking, i generally don't agree with using wikis, especially if they are neither notable nor reputed for being a resource in that subject field, and certainly not when it is a vehicle for original research and unencyclopaedic, highly opinionated viewpoints. i don't believe that the majority of wikis would pass WP:EL (that includes John's website wikiislam.org which he edits frequently), the only real exception i can envisage is where the wiki linked to is both notable and reputable as a good resource for information, implements standards similar to Wikipedia, and would be considered acceptable for external linking in a featured article. those kind of wikis are extremely rare, which is why i don't believe the floodgates for generally accepting wiki external links should be opened. ITAQALLAH 07:42, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
<reset indent>
i detailed above what i interpret a suitable wikilink to be... although even then the problem of factually dubious information or original research persists. maybe something more akin to Larry Sanger's project (citizendium) would be suitable? you don't find websites based on that kind of model frequently, if at all, so perhaps it's merely an exceptional instance. in general, then, i agree with Blueboar.
how the clause relates to wikiislam? well i detailed at the beginning of the section that it seems to be a project started by users on the ' faithfreedom.org' forum, incidently their base for collaborating on articles on wikiislam.org (also hosted under the domain wiki.faithfreedom.org). i don't believe that the wiki is committed to providing accurate, scholarly and verified material (as would be expect under WP:RS) per having looked at the articles in general (problems related to style, referencing, verification, a lot of material copy-pasted from unreliable websites etc) and at a few FFI posts ( [1] [2] [3] [4]; 'Whale' = User:JohnsAr). these points suggest to me that it is unlikely that one would see material adhering to the general standards outlined in WP:EL (and subsequently WP:RS). a number of wikis, whatever their ideological, political, religious etc. leaning will no doubt be of the same essence as wikiislam, in that it will be a vehicle for opinion without regard for academic standards, and they in the same way as wikiislam are not really suitable for being used as external links in my opinion. ITAQALLAH 14:57, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Given what I am being told about the site's history and unreliability of information, I think my initial impression was correct ... WikiIslam should NOT be used as a source, and should NOT be listed as an "External Link" either. And yes, Johns, that does mean that 100s of articles here are linking to wikis incorrectly and should be changed. I doubt you will accept my reasoning... but you asked for a neutral opinion and I gave it to you after hearing from both sides. Unless someone else (ie not JohnsAr or Itaqalla) has anything to say, that should close the matter. If you want to keep fighting about it, do so else-where please. In any case For me the discussion is over. Thanks for listening. Blueboar 17:03, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Take it to Dispute Resolution. WP:R3O, WP:RFC, WP:Mediation and then the final step: ArbCom. We need to try to keep policies as general as possible. But another thing to think about is.... if everyone is against the inclusion of a link... then perhaps there is a problem with it. Remember: No Wikipedia article needs an external links section. In fact, they are discouraged by policy. Explicitly allowing a class of link would be contrary to the philosophy. On the other hand, SOME external links are helpful. But I'd rather see the link left out of the article completely then see an edit war break out. --- J.S ( t| c) 03:23, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I have been using sources (1.) written by renowned academic scholars (2.)peer-reviewed and (3.) published by university presses. There is no, even one, academic encyclopedia which contains links to such websites. I will definitely consistently remove any such links, either from faithfreedom, or Islamophobe, etc etc. To my mind, they are all garbage no matter whether they are Muslim friendly or not. This is what I promise I'll do. There is almost no topic on which the academic scholars haven't written. -- Aminz 10:25, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Currently there are about 11000 links from wikipedia to YouTube. Many of them are being used in articles about as sources. I added a note about avoiding YouTube... but perhapses there is a better way to say it or a better place to put it? There's a big discussion about this on WP:AN right now. ---
J.S (
t|
c)
16:57, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
You must alos understand that many famous people or groups, such as Weird Al or Nintendo Wii, posted copies of commertials or music videos on youtube. So, even though there are other ways to find those videos, this is the best way for the averge person. You can't put as a sourse "The Nintendo wii advert that has been spotted on cartoon network and history channel during the hopurs of 1 am- 2 am on november 18"--
68.192.188.142
19:15, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
I think it was touched upon before, but I am seeking some clarification. I am of the opinion that including statements of campaign managers as if they were the statements of the candidates is - at best - misleading. Many campaign managers (and unidentifed 'staffers') are political operative who may not be speaking with the candidate's own words.
I think it best to weed them out of entries about the candidate they represent, relying instead on statements made by the candidate him/herself. This tends to be irrefutable, and would cut down the edit wars considerably, as they are rather contentious and diverting. While I understand that newspapers may quote aforementioned folk, it is also newspapers that finally endorse one candidate or another. WP does not - and should not - allow the same to happen here. Primary and secondary source allowances aside, the potential for abuse is enormous.
As well, there seems to be some discussion as to whether offline material regarding the candidate should be allowed if one can 'provide the source, author and page.' I think this view to be skewed and almost certainly lazy research. We live in an age where most information can be found readily online, so long as a little brain power is applied. After all, this is an online encyclopedia. Sources cited should be readily available online as well.
This becomes even more of a consideration when we consider that less than scrupulous folk can astroturf and viral-market propaganda in the form of a quoted, offline source. There are other problems with offline sources, and I am merely pointing out one aspect of the issue as it applies to current political campaigns. There is a color of authority that attends cited information, and a great many times (at least in political campaign entries), these sources are incorrectly attributed, paraphrased, or sometimes simply manufactured.
I would appreciate some insights into this matter. I am interested in learning how to approach these issues with sure knowledge, and not a gut feeling. Arcayne 00:48, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Reverted... actually some of the edits were quite good in my opinion, but taken as a lump I have to disagree. Some of them i definitely disagree with. For example, one of the things cut was the bit about Wikipedia itself (and by extension other wikis) not being a reliable source ... which I think is very important to include. May I suggest discussing each change one at a time? Blueboar 23:31, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
We seem to once again be edit waring on the status of this page. Omegatron contends that there is consensus to demote this to an essay. I contend that there is consensus to keep it as a guideline (although I agree that it need work). One problem is that this debate is somewhat spread out... with those for demoting posting in one area and those for keeping posting in another. I know that "polls are evil"... but the only way to get a clear sense of how people are falling on the issue is to consolidate the debate. So... I am going to propose a poll. Please add your signature to which ever option you support (they are not mutually exclusive, so if you agree with more than one, add your name to any that apply). Add comments if you feel the need to do so, and feel free to add a new option if none of the ones I post reflect your oppinion. Thanks Blueboar 01:32, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
A guideline is any page that is: (1) actionable and (2) authorized by consensus. ... People are sometimes tempted to call a vote on a guideline, but this is a bad idea because it polarizes the issue (see Voting is evil for details). Instead, a guideline is made by listening to objections and resolving them.
Wikipedia works by building consensus. This is done through polite discussion and negotiation, in an attempt to develop a consensus. If we find that a particular consensus happens often, we write it down as a guideline, to save people the time having to discuss the same principles over and over.
Option 10) Merge everything salvageable into WP:V or another policy.
I honestly don't think the problem is defining whether we need "reliable sources," but simply that WP is woefully behind regarding what can and should be considered a reliable source. Should this be guideline or even policy? Undoubtedly. Should it be before we make it into something that makes logical sense? Of course not. -- badlydrawnjeff talk 16:56, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
I am condsidering option 9, Promote into a policy rather than a guidline, because we need to tighten up on sourcing. I wonder if it is best as a separate page here, or as part of WP:V and WP:ATT. Thoughts? Tom Harrison Talk 20:14, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I am honestly mystified how anyone could seriously propose promoting this page to policy. I'm not opposed to a sourcing policy, but this page is so fundamentally flawed and broken as to be unsuitable as the foundation for any such policy. It is replete with inaccuracies and poor judgments. To oppose this page is not, as some would have it, to oppose sourcing, or to make an end run around NOR and V. It's to oppose a bad guideline that gives bad guidance. Nobody is seriously proposing a complete lack of sourcing or of consideration of what a good source is. The question is merely whether this page actually describes those issues well. It doesn't. It absolutely, 100% doesn't. Phil Sandifer 06:37, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
I generally agree with Phil that as the guideline currently stands, there is no way it can be policy...but it should be, and egregious violations of a reliable sources policy should be a blockable offense. It is mandatory that examples of what are and what are not reliable sources needs to be presented, in a simple and easy to follow manner. It is an easy case...simply show what are reliable sources and what aren't by providing examples of each...if that is 20 or 30 examples, then that is fine. The rest of the wording on the page simply needs to discuss the best ways to determine a reliable source and why this is important to the project. I suppose I can work on a draft in my userspace in the next couple of weeks.-- MONGO 09:09, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
<sticking in $ .02> It has come about that policies and guidelines first present a sort of nutshell or carefully worded, brief description and then expand it and present the reasoning. It has often been discussed that Reliable Sources should include the elements which, when appearing together, constitute a reliable source. To my thinking these elements are: Attributability, declared legal liability (sometimes by implication), degree of establishment (Ford Motor Company better than Bide-a-wee Biscuits) and an established history (trackrecord). If we placed this sort of reasoning early in the guideline, I think it would be helpful. Terryeo 17:39, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
So there are three questions. Should the content of this page be the foundation of a sourcing policy? While this page has some good information that can go in a policy, we might do better to start from scratch. Should we have a sourcing policy separate from what is covered in our policies on verifiability and attribution? and should the sourcing policy (or WP:V and WP:ATT) be enforced by blocks? We already enforce sourcing for living people. We might next expand that to other areas: on-going enterprises, or numerical information like populations. Any expansion like this could have its own page like WP:BLP, or a section in attribution: "All population figures must be cited to a reliable source. Removing uncited changes to population figures is exempt from 3RR. Persistently adding them is grounds for blocking." Tom Harrison Talk 14:32, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Cross posted to WP:RS, WP:OR and Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine. There is a dispute going on at Talk:Depo Provera#Disadvantages and side effects WP:NOR violations. One user found primary sources, reliable journal articles, that said depo provera may do certain negative things. Another user is disputing this, citing original research. The argument, I guess, is that the 1st user is interpreting the source, and drawing conclusions not published anywhere else. The studies only dealt with rats (not humans), and there is nothing in the patient drug information (or any other way to verify the claims outside of the studies in question). The logic goes that making a connection that a study dealing with rats may effect the use of this drug in humans as a contraception is original research. Furthermore, it may be pushing a POV that this drug is unsafe by mentioning these studies (that are not verified outside of the individual study, and not mentioned in patient drug information). I feel like I am repeating myself, sorry. The counter argument is that a) citing primary sources is a good thing b) the claims are cited and verifiable and reliable, fulfilling almost every wikipedia criteria for inclusion. So I guess there are two issues. Is using the information in this manner original research? And is it giving undue weight to a minority view by citing obscure studies like this? Sorry if I am missing anything or misrepresenting a side. Please direct comments to Talk:Depo Provera#Disadvantages and side effects WP:NOR violations. Thanks!-- Andrew c 03:31, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
There is an interesting discussion at Talk:Operation Minsk, where we are discussing what to do if academic sources are contradicting each other. Comments about solution appreciated.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 18:15, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
"Convergence of the two schools over time", or the replacement of one school with another, as discussed in the article " historical revisionism", which also might throw some light on the issue -- Philip Baird Shearer 15:17, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I ran into an interesting situation recently that got me thinking. Very often Wikipedia's most valuable role isn't merely telling us things we didn't know, it's also telling us which things we thought we knew about the subject aren't correct. With that in mind, I'd like to ask: when the point of discussing a certain claim is to identify that it is actually an urban legend, misunderstanding or misconception, should we require that that urban legend, misunderstanding or misconception be published by as reliable a source as we would require for anything we were presenting as true, or at least not debunked?
A true but simplified example: Two Congressmen were censured by the House for inappropriate behavior. One chose to face the main body of the House, thus turning him away from the Speaker of the House who was reading the censure. The other chose to face the Speaker of the House who was reading the censure, thus turning him away from the main body of the House. Memories of politicians being as subject they are to unconscious (and sometimes conscious) "reinterpretation", the second Congressman's action mutated from "faced the Speaker who was reading the censure and not the rest of the House" to "turned his back on the House" to "turned his back and ignored the censure as it was being read."
Now, in this case, it was easy to find a reliable source -- contemporary reports from the New York Times -- to refute the idea that the Congressman had "ignored" the censure as it was read. However, it was not as easy finding a reliable source which discussed the idea that he did do so! It's a widespread belief but principally widespread among those whom Wikipedia would not regard as a reliable source -- highly partisan websites, and private blogs. In a situation like this, it seems Wikipedia has three choices:
I feel that the third makes the most sense. -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:52, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
What about something like slog, the blog maintained by The Stranger? (The Stranger is a Seattle alternative weekly, probably the most important chronicler of the city's youth culture, and quite good on other culture and politics as well.) It would seem to me that the pieces in there that are signed by the newspaper's staff are exactly as attributable as items in the paper itself (so the usual blog issue of not knowing who wrote it is gone). On the other hand, they are probably less subject to editorial review than articles published in the paper. - Jmabel | Talk 08:43, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
This guideline currently lists the IMDB as a reliable source for movie credits. I propose this be removed. IMDB credits are just as unreliable as anything else on the IMDB, and often user submitted. 6 years ago, I uploaded the full cast and crew of a Christopher Walken film called " The Prophecy 3: The Ascent" into the IMDB. As a joke, I added popular B-movie actress Linnea Quigley to the cast, credited as a "Hooker". The IMDB fully accepted my addition. Quigley is still listed on that page (although she has been downgraded to "uncredited"). This credit is now also listed all over the net. Quigley was even asked about the role in this interview: "You had a small part as a hooker in The Prophecy 3 in 2000, did you have any scenes with Christopher Walken and what was he like? I don’t think unless they used old footage that I’m in Prophecy 3. I have to see it sometime but I wish I could have worked with them. Damn, if you have seen it and I’m in it let me know." Mad Jack 22:16, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Moved from elsewhere to bring this to everyones attention. ALR 23:07, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
I was bold and created Wikipedia:Reliable sources/rewrite and Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources/rewrite. The former doesn't say much right now, and I suggest only adding things which we have a high degree of consensus on to it. It's talk page is divided up pretty much like the current WP:RS's table of contents. Assuming people like this idea (which they might not), we can still put anything we don't keep in the guideline in essays. Armedblowfish ( talk| mail) 16:57, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
The draft at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/rewrite is now reasonably mature, although it needs a section on convenience links. I'd welcome some views because I think that the rest is getting ready to port it across to the main page. ALR 08:41, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
At the same time that the discussions here are going on and the above rewrite by ALR is being done, also a replacement for WP:V, WP:NOR as well as WP:RS is being discussed on Wikipedia:Attribution. Please give your opinion on that attempt to reduce the burden of an ever growing mass of policy. Harald88 07:42, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Can [5], a roadgeek fansite, be a reliable source for the definition of a ghost ramp? If not, what happens if the poll on talk:ghost ramp finishes with a majority in favor? -- NE2 19:49, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
On the Dave Ramsey page, someone keeps using this review of one of his books from Amazon.com as a source for all sorts of criticsms, some not even talked about in the article. Would a review from Amazon be considered a reliable source? I don't see why, but can I get a consensus?
Nobody appears to have summed up the results of the straw poll up above. The poll had some methodology problems, for example it provided choices that were not mutually exclusive so a person who favored two or more choices could either vote for more than one choice or not have his or her position adequately captured, and no guidance was provided on this. All the same there's enough there to get a rough picture of what participating editors think ought to happen:
The most popular choices, a tie with 11 each, were KEEP AS GUIDELINE and KEEP BUT MAJORLY REWRITE. The third most popular choice PROMOTE TO POLICY received 9 votes. All of these choices are reasonably construed as "supportive" of the guideline. If we remove from the pool of those three choices the double counting of editors who split their votes, you get a total of 27 unique editors.
When we do the same figuring with the choices reasonably construed as "not supportive" of the guideline, DEMOTE TO ESSAY, TRASH AND REPLACE, and MERGE EVERYTHING SALVAGEABLE INTO WP:V, we get a total of 4 unique editors. The remaining choice REWRITE WHERE NEEDED is neither supportive nor not supportive of the guideline as far as I can tell. It has 5 votes, but if you look at the votes they all expressed support either by also voting for one of the aforementioned "supportive" choices, or by expressing support (ArmedBlowFish) in this particular vote.
In summary, I'm making the case that, of those editors that participated in the poll, 4 are "not supportive" whereas at least 27 are "supportive" of the guideline. Those not supportive are in a distinct minority. On this basis I propose removing both the "disputed" and "protected" tags from this guideline and letting editors go back to improving it in good faith. DanielM 13:45, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
PS: All my tabulations were done informally and are of the "back-of-the-napkin" variety. I think I was accurate but I welcome any corrections to my counts. DanielM 13:47, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
The rewrite is problematic, e.g. "Replicability — Can the conclusions of the source be reached using the information available or is there any indication of gaps in the thinking or process of derivation." It doesn't matter if the NYT article displays a "gap in thinking." It's a reliable source, period. And "process of derivation" doesn't really mean anything. SlimVirgin (talk) 04:12, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Following the example of Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability/Religioustolerance.org I created a centralized discussion regarding salon.com as a source for Wikipedia after a dispute arose on using salon.com for the article Sathya Sai Baba. See Talk:Salon.com/as_a_source_for_Wikipedia. I intend to make more centralized discussions of specific sources. Andries 09:40, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
With centralized discussion about specific sources, I mean that the generic dicussions about specific sources should not be fragmented over diverse article talk pages. The contributors may not be aware that more or less the same discussion is taking place on other article talk pages. Andries 14:41, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Some editors, including admins User:Fred Bauder and User:MONGO, have suggested that peer-reviewed academic publications from prestigious universities are not acceptable under WP:RS if the author subsequently becomes politically active in an area they define as 'disinformation'.
The specific case is Dr Ganser of the ETH Zurich who wrote a peer-reviewed book on Operation Gladio. Two years later he also wrote a chapter for a book on 9/11. Does this make his previous work unacceptable under WP:RS? Lord Seabhcán of Baloney 20:25, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I don't care if this guideline is redundant. It should be kept as a guideline. There is a distressing seepage of cruft onto Wikipedia, and we could use every single rule, guideline etc. to stop it. If you wanna fight redundancy and meaninglessness, then go fight it where it should be fought.. out there among the crufty pseudo-articles. Thanks, -- Ling.Nut 20:39, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
What do people think we should do with something like this? I have no reason at all to doubt a word this person is saying, but "My father translated and read the names and dates to me as I wrote them down in 1974…My father's mother, Teodora Vazquez Molenar Gonzalez was close to Pasqual as their mothers were sisters" isn't exactly what we usually accept. - Jmabel | Talk 02:55, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
"Reliable source" does not mean "flawless and omniscient".
And what does any of this have to do with Nobel (title of section). - Jmabel | Talk 00:03, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Before we can move forward with any rewrite, I think we need to address a fundamental question: What exactly are guidelines? Are guidelines a set of "rules" which should be followed, or are they "advice" that can be ignored?
Ideally, Policies should be considered as "rules" to be followed, and guidelines should be considered "advice" on how to implement specific sections of a policy. Thus, WP:RS should be a page of advice on how to impliment the rule stated in WP:V (ie: that statements made in articles should be cited to reliable sources.) Ideally, editors come here, read what we have to say, and go off and make their own determinations as to how reliable things are.
Unfortunately, that is not how guidelines are used in reality. When disputes arise, editors quote gidelines as if they were rules. This is understandable. Because policies tend to be very broad in scope, they do not cover specifics. But when a question or dispute over specifics arises, editors want to know how to resolve them. They want a rule that tells them if something is OK or not. In the case of this guideline, editors want some place where they can go to determine whether a given source is reliable or not. Look at the typical discussion on this page... most of the discussions start with someone posting a question such as: "Is source A a reliable source in article B?" In other words, the editors who come here don't want advice... they want a determination (to be cynical, they often don't just want a determination, they want one that in in sync with their own POV, but that is another issue).
To sum up... guidelines often are written as advice, but they are used as rules.
So the big question for us is... do we go with the ideal and write advice, or do we go with reality and write a set of rules? My personal oppinion is that we need to do something in-between. The bulk of any guideline should continue to be advice... but we should be clear that there are a few rules, and state them clearly. The advice part needs to be written as advice... It should be couched in flexible terms that encourages the reader to think on his or her own and reach their own conclusions. The rules part needs to be written as rules ... blunt, clear and concise, with little "wiggle room" or interpretation. Rules should basically repeat what is stated on the policy pages, with perhaps a bit of expansion as it relates to the subject of the guideline.
For example: As advice, I would include something like: "When a dispute about the reliablility of a source arises, editors should first attempt to resolve the issue on the article talk page or on the project page relating to that article. Often disputes over sources are actually disputes over POV, and can be resolved by rephrasing the statement the citation is being used to support as the opinion of the source." (Not really good wording... but you get the idea). As a rule, I would include the following: "As is stated in WP:V, 'Self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources.' This is Wikipedia policy and should always be followed. Such sources may be used in articles about themselves, (ie articles about the book, website or blog, or when another article directly discusses the book, website or blog.) Such sources may also be used when the author can be confirmed to be a well respected expert writing in his own field of experties." (again... the wording is not perfect, but you get the idea).
OK... that's my view... what's yours? Blueboar 19:24, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
If anyone is interested, I think a short discussion of how real encyclopedia editors and other academics make and verify credible references might be in order. Entire books have been written about this topic, some straying far into metaphysics, but let's just cover the basics.
There is no such thing as an utterly definitive reference. All must be subjected to a balancing test. Many ingredients go into the soup and all must be tasted. Here are a few:
About this time, you are wondering how in the world any citation can meet all these criteria. Short answer: Few do. Certainly, in the world of popular culture, you are not likely to get anything nearly as good as this standard. Deal with it. Either refuse to accept articles on such topics or lower citation standards for them. There really isn't much choice.
Try to keep in mind that none of this is remotely fun. All the fun of writing for publication comes from actually writing the article. All that boring research in the stacks is hard on the eyes and taxes one's patience. You cannot really hope to do it without access to a good university library. Most of what's available online gratis is garbage. If you have access to certain databases, you may do better but most of the important stuff is only in print -- or worse, on fiche.
I close with a serious caution. Most of us are simply not qualified to judge the merit of most citations. In order to do this, you need to be qualified in the field. I am a generalist, with very broad experience that cuts across many fields. Still, I would hesitate to make a final statement on any citation not in a field in which I have deep experience -- which such are rather few.
I've said it before: Let's try not to reinvent the wheel. Citing sources is a discipline that's evolved over a very long time and has had many hands in the development. There are many authoritative references on the topic. If you intend to develop a rigorous, comprehensive citation policy, you need to start by sourcing the claims you make here. John Reid ° 11:34, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
A vast improvement. John Reid ° 09:21, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Oh, okay. We're not trying to meet academic standards for peer-reviewed journal articles. We're just trying to write the best articles possible and support them as best we can. Sorry; for a minute there, I thought we were serious about all this reliable sources bumf.
If we're not going to try to reinvent the wheel and streamline the process of researching and verifying citations, then we can scale back to what is practical in an open community full of untrained editors. I made this suggestion before but it didn't catch fire. I honestly do believe people would rather play at academia and force some random collection of "rules" into policy, trying to cover the entire field of human knowledge with straight lines and wobbly restrictions. If I'm wrong, I'll try again.
No matter what, every citation must be evaluated on its own merits. There is no bypassing this. No amount of huffing and puffing is going to result in a short, easy-to-read standard against which every citation can be measured. You may not like this, but yes, every single citation is an opportunity for a little bitty war. You say it's okay, I say it's not, we argue, we cite more sources to support our views. The merits of the individual citation in its individual context absolutely trump any project-wide standard.
Not only that, we must face up realistically to the fact that some articles are going to be better sourced than others. Worthwhile articles can and should be written on topics where fair sources are all that are available. If we thrash out some high standard for "reliable" sources, we cut off all lesser ones. If we settle for a minimum standard, we fail to push for the best available when we have many from which to choose. The only thing crazier than trying to set one bar for the entire project is to try to set a zillion little bars, one each for every category of article -- here, in one central space. Most editors will simply ignore this effort. You take, for example, Classical Music. Editors who work in that area have no interest at all in this general effort; they will ignore it, too, if it conflicts with the system they have already settled upon.
With this in mind, all that remains of general, project-wide interest is some sort of rudimentary source rating scheme. Having admitted that some sources are better than others, I propose a simple grading system: A, B, and C.
Go to articles one at a time; check sources given one at a time; and grade them appropriately if you think you have enough understanding to do so. Then move on. If somebody else changes the rating, let it go. In fact, I will say that if you are here, you almost certainly have a generalist bent of mind, which means that although you may have a better grasp of why it is important to have some sort of project-wide standards for sources, any specialist is probably a better judge than you are in his specific area. So let it go.
There is no point at all in warring over a source's grade so long as there are hundreds of thousands of unrated sources in the project. When all sources have grades and you want to dispute another editor's change to one of your grades, do so politely; argue your case rationally and on individual merits. Do not hope to kill the entire beast on this one page in one week.
That's all. John Reid ° 08:29, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
There; I've documented the process and the series of templates. See Source grading. I've also included a new placeholder template for use when editors simply can't agree. John Reid ° 09:19, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Please make that comment at Wikipedia talk:Source grading. The short answer is no; just remove it. John Reid ° 11:01, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Few types of sources make me more uncomfortable than those of any stripe that rely upon strawman arguments, innuendo, ad hominem arguments, etc. My opinion is they cheapen Wikipedia's reliability as an overall resource, and they furthermore exacerbate partisanship. Is there any way we could tighten the requirements surrounding partisan or religious sources to ensure they at least have a shred of indisputable fact in them? I have seen pages of different stripes with unsubstantiated rants supporting them, which seem to weaken Wikipedia's overall credibility. Encyclopedias stake their reputations on being factual, not opinionated, at least traditionally. Just the facts ma'am.-- FidesetRatio 03:37, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Please note that WP:EL has been revised... there is one section that may impact this guideline or the various rewrites being drafted:
This is the first time that I can think of where factually inaccurate material has been discussed in such a explicitly negative way in a guideline. OUR guideline certainly doesn't (nor the draft rewrites that might replace it). Given this, Perhaps the time has come for us to address the issue of sources that contain factually inaccurate material as well.
I know that we have to be careful not to contradict the priciples expressed in WP:NPOV... but I think we could state something similar to what is on WP:EL. I.E. any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research should not be considered reliable. Any thoughts on this? Blueboar 19:12, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Maybe Wikipedia needs some sort of quality-control mechanism. I'm a reporter, and if my source gives me bad information, I still get killed by my readers, even if it wasn't my fault the information was misleading. What do you think about banning political or religious propaganda as reliable sources, save for if we are discussing say Socialist, Fascist, Communist, Catholic, atheist propaganda, etc.? Propaganda doesn't require any factual basis to it, and my journalistic instincts say that a third-party, non-partisan source needs to be provided to verify any opinion-based claims. If you say that so-and-so belongs to a certain group, you had better have independed verification from a non-partisan source, such as a reputable newspaper, journal, etc., otherwise letting that slide allows Wikipedia's articles to degenerate to the level of trash and uselessness. With Citizendium on the horizon, Wikipedia needs to be competitive, or suffer Nupedia's fate. Contributors and readers will go elsewhere if they don't trust Wikipedia's content.-- FidesetRatio 03:13, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
On the change to WP:EL: Seems utterly misguided to judge this at the level of a site. By this logic, we can't link IMDB for basic info on the cast of a film because it may have inaccurate or misleading reviews; we can't link a newspaper because it runs misleading personals ads; etc. Surely this cannot mean what it says. - Jmabel | Talk 00:25, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
On FidesetRatio's remarks: Do I read you as saying that centrist, capitalist (and perhaps Protestant?) viewpoints are trusted and other viewpoints are inherently "propaganda"? Are you saying, for example, that we should distrust George Orwell as a source because he was a socialist? No thanks. The issue is intellectual honesty, not someone's politics. For example, I trust the BBC, Wall Street Journal, The Nation, and The National Review about equally on factual reporting, which is to say I assume them all to be trying to get their facts right, and usually succeeding, at least in outline. Conversely, I don't trust Fox News any more than Stalinist-era Pravda. - Jmabel | Talk 00:25, 27 November 2006 (UTC)