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Can all those news sources that appear in Google news be taken as Reliable Sources? My personal belief is that we should take them all to be reliable publications as Google accepts them based on their compliance with certain parameters.This will help us in case of issues where parties attack a publication saying it is not reliable and also help us understand which publications are nationally recognised worldwide. 59.176.17.19 09:21, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
It would appear that the policy page has been returned from Historical to active status or at least that there is a movement afoot to do so, so I have taken the liberty of commenting out the historical tag here. If this movement carries on it may be appropriate to unprotect the page as well in accordance with common practice. ++ Lar: t/ c 16:39, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
It sure seems like maintaining a policy and duplicate guideline would be less then a perfect solution. I suggest that Wikipedia:Reliable sources be merged and redirected to Wikipedia:Attribution#Reliable_sources as you can see http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Template:Unreferenced&curid=1440745&diff=116750158&oldid=115646489 already it is not clear which one is the guiding principle. Signed Jeepday 14:43, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
This section seems to go a little too far. There are contexts in which such sources are valuable (cf. Godwin's law), mainly for establishing first date of public appearance. I do of course undertand the point this section is trying to make, I think it is just overbroad. While the content of some random Usenet post is potentially highly questionable, the archived timestamp on it probably isn't and in many cases may be the only source for the date in question. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ contrib ツ 19:48, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Archived Usenet posts (i.e. through Google-Groups archives) should be an allowable source for historical references... for example historical announcements of software releases. I just noticed that a cited reference of a release date using this source was removed from a page, citing this policy as a reason for removal. An exception is needed. -- Thoric 23:10, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
The edit made here should be restored. The change it fixed was made without consensus, the edit to make that fix had consensus here, and not only did the revert of the edit that made that fix not have any discussion, the reverter even effectively joined in the consensus. There is no "stability" clause anywhere, much less one that justifies reverting the repairing of damage to a guideline simply to make it agree temporarily with a page the future existence or status of which is heavily disputed. Also, the revert made WP:RS not agree with WP:ATT any longer, so "stability" urgers are thwarting their own goals with this page protection. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ contrib ツ 19:37, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Please don't make changes right now. As most of you know, this page was merged into the FAQ page at WP:ATT, and was made historical ... well, Jimbo has asked us to do a poll on whether ATT has consensus or not, the result of which will affect this page. That is the only reason why this page is back to being active. For people to be able to decide properly in that poll, it is important that the various policies and guidelines that were merged into ATT stay in the same version that they were in when the merge took place. This is not the time to be making changes. Once it is determined whether this page will rolled into ATT or not ... then we can suggest changes at the appropriate location. Please be patient. Blueboar 00:05, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
I have protected this page to maintain stability while the WP:ATT situation is being sorted out. Crum375 00:35, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia talk:Attribution/Community discussion
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:13, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
There should be a prominent merge tag posted on this page, directing people to the discussion, which is supposed to be trying to attract as many people as possible. This is the very problem that led to the current dispute: that there had been no merge tag on this and similar pages while discussions about possibly merging were going on. Would someone please correct this and put up the merge tags? -- Coppertwig 00:11, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
The project page needs {{
Mergeto|Attribution}}
(see
Wikipedia:Attribution/Poll - merge has been proposed). —
SMcCandlish [
talk] [
contrib ツ 19:37, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
The last paragraph of Types of source material contains a misspelling ("polititian" should be "politician") that you might want to fix when (or if) editing of that page is again permitted. -- Rich Janis 09:02, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
... and we are discussing the subject in a community wide debate. The merge template makes no sense, is confusing and adds nothing. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:59, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
"Acceptable Sources" is a far more accurate and honest descripton than "Reliable Sources" to describe the basis on which sources are allowed to be used in wiki. A certain blog may be far more informed and reliable on a particular topic than a national newspaper, but the former is an unacceptable source and the latter is an acceptable one, regardless of its reliability. In reality the so-called reliable sources may often have very dubious reliability, so it's rather naive to keep on using that word for them. It also makes it harder for editors to understand why a source may or may not be used, when on occasion they see something which they know is unreliable being called reliable and vice versa. Tyrenius 02:34, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
"Acceptable" to me intends to imply a binary standard of reliability, which does seem to be the stance taken by WP:ATT. "Significant" might work for a sliding scale of reliability that depends on circumstances, consistent with the spirit of WP:NPOV. Wikipedia:Reliable sources has been in conflict between those who prefer a binary stanard of reliability and those who prefer a sliding scale adjustable depending on circumstances for as long as I have been discussing things here. "Reliable" is probably the most inclusive, even if not the most accurate. — Armed Blowfish ( talk| mail) 02:23, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
See Wikipedia talk:Attribution/Community discussion#RS_and_NPOV. You can participate at Wikipedia:Undue weight (sources). Thanks, Armed Blowfish ( talk| mail) 03:31, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Header. I was asked by an admin from WP:RFPP to come up with a combination of the merge header from WP:RS (as of this writing) and the protection header from WP:ATT, to be used on both WP:V and WP:RS, and propose it on the talk pages of both. Above, someone has raised issues that might be addressed by a similar custom message here. My take at this is located at the link above. By belief is that this version will satisfy everyone. It has the text (with twiddles that make it apply to this page instead of ATT, V or NOR) from ATT's tag, with the merge tag formatting of the one presently at RS. I believe it would obviate the need to continue editprotecting about the need for a merge tag. I think it also absorbs all the ideas of the template in the topic above, too. Any objections? It looks like this:
PS: I has a noinclude variant in it for the case that protection is reinstated here.
— SMcCandlish [ talk] [ contrib ツ 19:22, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
PPS: No, it didn't really take me half a day to take the trash out. I got tired and went to bed. :-) — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ contrib ツ 19:28, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Jimbo Wales requested a poll to gauge community thoughts on the Wikipedia:Attribution merger. A poll for this is being crafted, and is somewhat close to done. Concensus for the past 24 hours (with the occasional dissenting voice of course) that the thing is close to done. Only the main question is still heavily debated. A pre-poll straw poll is here:
Wikipedia_talk:Attribution/Poll#Q1_Straw_poll_duration
To sort that out. Accepted group concensus seems to be to pre-poll to 4/1/07 22:00 and then launch a site-wide poll (again, as implied/requested by Jimbo) at 4/2/07 00:00. Please help hash out the wording for that last quesion. - Denny 13:31, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't be too controversial.
Wikinews's mission in part is to act as a reliable source for wikipedia, so if we then don't allow it, that would be silly.
Certain usenet FAQs and posts are considered canonical wrt usenet itself. It seems fairly safe to make that as a clarification on self published sources. This doesn't quite cover (in)famous documents like the sci.skeptic faq though. Hmm.
Actually, another reliable wiki is wikisource, which replicates reliable sources that can be freely published.
I'll add that as another example. If the list gets really long, we might need to refactor/move elsewhere/ do something else :-/
-- Kim Bruning 11:24, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Per comments on the Talk page here, and in other locales, it appears groups of editors are specifically against Jimbo's specifically requested public poll to gauge thoughts/support on the idea of the ATT merger. As it has been stated that the Poll is "dead" per users such as User:WAS 4.250, I am nominating this. If there is wide spread support to run this poll, this page should be kept. The MfD is here:
Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Attribution/Poll
Thank you. - Denny 16:12, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Looking at the discussion archives, I see that the paragraph on banning "extremist sources" didn't get consensus. In fact it is silly and "extremist" is a meaningless term. Are we going to ban the US gov as a source because it is widely recognized as an extremist warmonger? Are we going to ban the Islam media as a source because the US media widely call them extremist? -- BMF81 17:50, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Well we could start with the Index of Forbidden Books and expand from there. What about adding to it " The English Revolution, 1640" (pub 1940) after all Christopher Hill was a communist. -- Philip Baird Shearer 18:43, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
What is an extremest? It seems to me from its use here to be a word rather like terrorist that it is a pejorative term. "It is a word with intrinsically negative connotations that is generally applied to one's enemies and opponents, or to those with whom one disagrees and would otherwise prefer to ignore."(see: Terrorist#Pejorative use). Given the systemic bias of this project, I think that WP:ATT/ WP:RS is enough, particularly the sections " Exceptional claims require exceptional sources" and " Self-published sources" without the need to define what an extremist source is. For an example of what I mean see Muhammad al-Durrah who is the extremest in that article? On issues like Global warming which is the extremest position? For example is the Great Warming Swindle an extremest piece? Given the talk page disputes which happen, any codification of extremism will inevitably be used as a club by extremists on the other side of a coin to club their rivals. -- Philip Baird Shearer 10:18, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
In the discussion archive there are many users complaining on the absurdity of such a paragraph. If some users are so opposed on removing it, we should at least include in it the concerns raised here.-- BMF81 11:52, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
This news website requires users to register and log in before they can view the newspaper's online articles. Does this not hinder its utility as a source?-- h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 14:04, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
The New York Times is always (with the usual caveats) I suppose a fine source. If an article is published, it's published. Hiding it behind a registration or a "pay to view" option after x months should never be disqualifying. You can always microfiche it, if you feel like it. Any implication that only "immediately available" or "handily available" sources are OK is nutty. :) Old english tomes from the 15th century may be fine sources, but given I'll likely never be in England or able to read ye Olde English doesn't mean that they aren't good sources... same idea. Or, given I can't read Cyrillic, doesn't exclude Russian sources, etc. - Denny 15:35, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
A proper and complete newspaper citation does not require a hyperlink. As long as the publisher, date, author, and title (and page number if available) is there, it is a good cite. Someone viewing the citation at a library computer can go right over to the reference desk and look that article up. That is the essence of verifiability. Humans were writing proper citations long before any electronic media existed. A hyperlink in the citation of a brick and mortar newspaper is simply a convenience. Whether it is free, free registration, or pay per article does not matter. - Crockspot 17:33, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
One of my pet peeves is a direct inline hyperlink to a RS news article that does not include any info but the link. If that article gets moved to a new URL, it can be very difficult to relocate without anything but a hyperlink to go by. Although sometimes there are good clues in the URL itself, such as a date or author name in the directory structure. Yahoo news links are notorious for going dead, and providing few clues. - Crockspot 19:58, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
I propose this addition: Note that these posts can be used to provide examples of common word usage, regarding for example slang words or newly invented words or new meanings for old words. In that regard they serve the purpose of a vocabulary clipping file. When dealing with new words lexicographers look for actual quotations showing how the word is used by ordinary people. The blogs are excellent sources for common ordinary usage of new words, slang words, and the like. That is they don't give a definition of the word (only reliable sources do that), but they use the word and thus the lexicographer takes notes. For 100 years they have been using sources like letters to newspapers, which are like blogs. Rjensen 20:08, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
I have a technical and administrative question regarding one paragraph in the criticism section on the Debito Arudou entry. Apologies to those who may think this background is unnecessary. On 25 October 2005, the Japan Times published an interview with author Alex Kerr. In one of the questions, the interviewer specifically asks Kerr about the political activist activities of the WP subject, Debito Arudou. Kerr responded critically of Arudou's tactics as a form of conflict resolution, while still acknowledging positively "that gaijin and their gaijin ways are now part of Japan's new civil society." Seeing how (1) it was critical (and therefore appropriate for the criticism section), (2) published in a mainstream newspaper, and (3) not original research (a clear WP policy requirement), the WP article was edited to include a brief synoposis of Kerr's criticisms and concerns, being sure to (1) document the source for the reader for further reference, and (2) include specific quotes from that interview for flavor. Like it or not, a publicly verifiable criticism was made. Yesterday, the subject of the criticism (understandably) seized an opportunity on the coattails of another blogger to publicly criticize Kerr's commentary on his own personal blog and e-mail distribution lists, perhaps to force a retraction. For the subject's criticisms of Kerr, see: "Alex Kerr falls into 'Guestism' arguments with unresearched arguments" at < http://www.debito.org/index.php>. Apparently, Kerr responded. However, the editing questions are now many: (1) the alleged clarification was posted on the subject's personal blog (is this considered a self-serving and unacceptable source?), (2) the subject himself, claiming to post on behalf of Alex Kerr, posted the reply (is this still considered reliable?), (3) the clarification still points out that, in Kerr's experience, these confrontational tactics do not work while clarifying the comment to read "no doubt that a stronger, more direct approach is appropriate [in the subject's case.]" (not necessarily a retraction, but a clarification?) and (4) both the subject and (apparently) Kerr are publicly asking their friends and supporters to "amend that Wikipedia article to indicate that [Kerr] wholly support[s] [the subject's] activities and [his] methods."
What to do?
1. Ignore the WP subject's personal blog entry and the posted clarification for the problems stated above?
2. Somehow request on the subject's WP talk page that a clarification be sent by Kerr to the Letters page of the Japan Times where the criticisms were original published for reliable accuracy?
3. Completely delete all mention of the initial public criticism? (No doubt this option is what some WP subjects would prefer)
4. Append another brief footnote to the initial criticism mentioning that, due to public criticism from the WP subject, actvisit Debito Arudou, on [such and such date], Alex Kerr responded on [such and such date] and then attach a hyperlink to the WP subject's personal blog comments where Kerr's clarifications may be found?
Any advice on how to proceed would be much appreciated? J Readings 19:05, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Would this qualify as a reliable source? Are page on the site dayd that it has some users contributing to the site, of course since there is an oversight process this wouldn't necessary disqualify it from being reliable. Aaron Bowen 23:15, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
A Ms. Daisy wrote a book. A Mr. Smith, who is a retired Prof. of Psychology, has reviewed this book for a popular magazine (not a scientific publication). In his review, Mr. Smith gave an assessment of Ms. Daisy's personality based on the book.
A dispute has erupted in the talk page of the article devoted to Ms. Daisy over whether Mr. Smith's review is a reliable source for an assessment of Ms. Daisy's personality.
What do you think? Itayb 13:09, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Suppose Dr. Smith's words were published in a letter to the editor, rather than in a book review. Would your opinion of it change? Please explain. Itayb 06:48, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
This wont be a problem for very long as the magazine is released in a week, but on the Grand Theft Auto IV page, information which is from a leaked issue of Game Informer magazine is being added. I've been trying to find a policy on using sources that are not officially released but I can't seem to find one. At this point all the information seems legitimate, but for a reader it is not easily verifiable as the reader cannot go out and buy the magazine to make sure it's correct. They'd have to hunt down scans on the web which I'm sure GI will start to have removed soon. Is a leaked magazine scan/photos of a printed magazine a reliable source? ● BillPP ( talk| contribs) 16:37, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks everyone for your input. I've been informed that the magazine was not leaked, but infact was delivered to a subscriber much earlier than the release date that the magazine states. I assume this changes the published status, but it still means that the material is not available to most readers of the article to verify. Is the magazine now an acceptible source? ● BillPP ( talk| contribs) 18:57, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
For normal wikipedia articles, we should use experts in the fields. The "criticism of X" articles are different as many notable critics do not have such qualifications. But they are notable as vocal critics. These critics sometimes make nasty accusations which in the case of the Jews could be classified as "antisemitism" or in the case of Islam as "Islamophobia". The question is whether we should include them or not. What is the exact criterion? -- Aminz 06:19, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
"However, when such a link is hosted on a less reliable site, the linked version should be checked for accuracy against the original, or not linked at all if such verification is not possible."
I'm not sure this is entirely correct. A "convenience link" is not the reference itself, it is, as the name conveys, a possible aid to the reader. First of all, if we have any doubts about the veracity of the convenience link, we shouldn't be using it at all. Beyond that, in my opinion, the onus should be on the reader to decide whether they trust the contents of such a link. Caveat emptor. -- kingboyk 11:02, 12 April 2007 (UTC) (See The KLF which uses convenience links, albeit at a site hosted by a Wikipedian).
Suppose a document, which had been published by a reliable source, is archived at a questionable website, such as a widely acknowledged racist site. Can the source be cited, linking to the archived version? Itayb 16:56, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
I have removed most references to WP:ATT as it is far from clear that it is policy.
I have also restored some information which was deleted during the last couple of months while the debate over WP:ATT has been going on. Which may have been deleted because it was in WP:ATT or in the WP:ATT/FAQ. Either way I think there needs to be a debate over whether it is removed from this guideline. Specifically the scholarly sources/Non-scholarly sources. I have also separated out the merger of "Partisan, corporate, institutional and religious sources" and "Extremist sources" as I do not think that they are the same thing. Again I think this should be discussed in detail if they are to be merged. -- Philip Baird Shearer 16:02, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Should the section "scholarly sources" be kept modified or deleted? -- Philip Baird Shearer 16:02, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Should the section "Non-scholarly sources" be kept modified or deleted? -- Philip Baird Shearer 16:02, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
I do not think that the sections "Partisan, corporate, institutional and religious sources" and "Extremist sources" be merged. what do others think -- Philip Baird Shearer 16:02, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
"Due to the legal sensitivity of these articles as well as moral obligations, do not include anything on living persons, if you cannot find a legitimate secondary source to rely on." is a first cut at an issue arose over a section in a biography of a living person which highlighted the problem of relying on primary sources. See Wikipedia talk:Attribution/Community discussion#NOR and the entry on Christopher Michael Langan: lessons, and Talk:Christopher Michael Langan#WP:NOR - removing original research, do not re-insert unless you have a source other than original research (and other sections on that page) -- Philip Baird Shearer 17:55, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Can someone please look at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject New York City Public Transportation#Subway Car Edits? Thank you. -- NE2 20:11, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
What do you think about updating the rather incomplete Wikipedia:Reliable sources/examples (has it ever been approved as an official extension of the RS policy?) with text from WP:ATT/FAQ#What_kinds_of_sources_are_generally_regarded_as_reliable.3F, WP:ATT/FAQ#What_kinds_of_sources_are_generally_regarded_as_unreliable.3F and WP:ATT/FAQ#Questions_about_the_reliability_of_specific_sources?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 20:25, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
The page of WP:ATT/FAQ is extremely raw and controversial to be upgraded to a policy status. What is really behind this is an attempt to get an official policy stamp on allowing to use non-academic newsarticles as reliable sources about remote history, putting them on equal footing with peer-reviwed historic article, scholarly books and other serious academic sources. More at Talk:Przyszowice massacre. -- Irpen 06:52, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
There was recent confusion during the discussion of ATT about the role of RS, with people thinking RS was policy, and V was something else. In fact, a lot of what people found important in RS had been copied from V and NOR. To minimize this confusion, I've removed the section from V and NOR that were repetitive (which I inserted in the first place), so that it's clear RS is a separate thing from V and NOR. SlimVirgin (talk) 22:47, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Sorry for the revert SV but can you please slow down and discuss the changes to each section first? -- Philip Baird Shearer 23:08, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
I did not oppose WP:ATT. I did not vote but I expressed a support for the one article approach although I was not happy with the changes (intended or otherwise) in the wording between the two.
I am not against changing this page but I think you should talk through the changes you wish to make in detail rather than making very large changes. Now what do we do with text that is in this guideline, (as is shown above), that is not in the the policies. I think that there is a need for a guideline such as this one to expand on the points made in the policy. This is what happens in the WP:NC and seems to work quite well there. -- Philip Baird Shearer 07:55, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I am sorry but do you realy mean that "There shouldn't be text here about those issue that isn't in the policies"? Guidlines frequently expand on what is written in policy articles. Without that Policy articles become bloated with details and examples. --
Philip Baird Shearer 18:01, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
An interesting question has been raised on WP:BLPN which I'd like to raise here as well for some input. Numerous major media outlets such as newspapers and broadcasters have established their own blogs to serve as a sort of 24/7 op-ed page. One of the best developed examples that I know of is the UK Guardian's Commentisfree blog. It's clearly run with editorial oversight, which makes sense given that legal liability issues apply just as much to a blog as to a dead tree publication. On the other hand, some other newspaper or journal blogs such as National Review's The Corner blog give no indication that they're subject to editorial oversight. So it would seem that we have two categories of mainstream media blogs - those that are explicitly overseen by editorial staffs, and those for whom there's no evidence of editorial oversight.
How do we deal with this distinction? Should we accept major-publication blogs as a source if they are subject to editorial oversight? In practical terms, what's the distinction between such blogs and conventional print-format op-ed pages? Are non-editorially overseen media blogs truly self-published if the actual publisher is a reputable media outlet? -- ChrisO 23:06, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi Ms Virgin,
You are apparently famous. I have seen your name around.
Regarding this edit, I do not think I agree with you. I hope you will give my argument fair consideration.
I think that as editors, people must use judgment about sources. I think it is not unreasonable to consider various factors in that review. For example a very old cited and researched article might be overcome by something more recent. The age of the article becomes relevant. But that was one of the things you removed, saying "No original research". I do not think it is the same as original research to use editorial oversight and judgment. -- Blue Tie 23:07, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
I found the section useful in a recent debate. Currently the RS policy doesn't state if non-scholarly publications are reliable or not - for example, there is no answer to a simple question: "Are newspapers articles acceptable sources or not".-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 02:51, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
This seems like a rather rigid way to view undue weight. There are many levels of weight, and limitting usage of a source to the article about itself is just one of them. Usage of extremist sources should be limitted, but I believe it is basically a matter of a) only using them as primary sources for their own opinions, which of course need to be phrased as indirect statements ( WP:NPOV#Attributing_and_substantiating_biased_statements) and b) not giving their opinions undue weight ( WP:NPOV#Undue_weight). We could provide more guidance on how much weight is due weight, but its more of a scale than just "in articles about themselves".
— Armed Blowfish ( mail) 03:45, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Doesn't the "extremist" clause partly disagree with the NPOV policy? And whatever value is in this clause is already covered by the V and NPOV policies, isn't it? I suggest it be deleted. Itayb 08:06, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I've reworded. I seem to have edit-conflicted with someone who points out that "extremist" is an attack phrase, and we don't want to have Position X find someone on their side who says that Position Y is extremist, and then purge Position Y from Wikipedia. This is a valid warning; but I think there is consensus of the sources (in our sense) that the neo-Nazis are in fact extremist. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:57, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I think, as should be clear, that weasel words are appropriate to assertions in Wikipedia space. To say or imply always or never is often false, but to supply exact figures and examples as to how many "peer-reviewed" journals are organs almost universally regarded as extremist (there are some) would be a waste of space here. But if it doesn't meet Itayb's objections, I repeat, fine: away with it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:56, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Neutral Point of View#Undue_weight is rather vague when it comes to determining exactly what due weight is. Couldn't we write something that provides more guidance on that? — Armed Blowfish ( mail) 01:42, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
If I write in an article that "Holy Book ABC says ____ in chapter 30:22" -- this is okay, correct? We're just quoting a religious source. What is the way to go about this? Some users are protesting that this is "Primary Source" and should be removed and I disagree. We're simply quoting what the religious source says. What are the procedures to do this correctly? Quote it exactly as it is in quotes? -- Matt57 ( talk• contribs) 13:35, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
This is the 2nd time that Matt57 has pulled something like this. Please see User_talk:Bbatsell#A_small_question_about_blocked_users, where initially, Matt57 asked his question in such a vague way in order to the admin to agree with him, and then proceeded to use this as an argument to push his POV. Then, when the admin in question found out, he chastised Matt57 for being disingenuous. I am afraid that the same problem is happening here. You see, Matt57 is not merely quoting religious text, he is interpreting it as well. See this:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/078.qmt.html#078.034
That is the citation appended to "big breasts" in the 72 virgins article. Where does that say big breasts? That is called original research, and by agreeing with matt57, that is what you are unduly supporting.-- Ķĩřβȳ ♥ ♥ ♥ Ťįɱé Ø 00:41, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
The problem this guideline has had from day one is the poor quality of the writing, and the lack of clarity of thought. We're in the top ten websites and editors come to these pages looking for advice, yet all we deliver is a confusing mish-mash of imprecise, poorly expressed personal opinion. Example:
Organizations and individuals that are widely acknowledged as extremist, whether for political, religious or anti-religious, racist, or other extremism, produce literature which is often defensive and rarely reviewed by any independent authority. It is normally of extremely limited reliability, except perhaps on the group itself; even there, claims about the groups' history and purpose are often non-consensus. Use with caution; and see also WP:FRINGE.
Do remember, however, that "extremist" is a common pejorative. Deciding that a group is extremist should require the same wide consensus of authority as making an assertion as a fact, in Wikipedia's voice.
Compare it to what was there before the edit.
Organizations and individuals that are widely acknowledged as extremist, whether of a political, religious or anti-religious, racist, or other nature, should be used only as sources about themselves and their activities in articles about themselves, and even then with caution.
Please someone explain to me how the former improved the latter. SlimVirgin (talk) 15:32, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I find it difficult to believe that an experienced Wikipedia editor is in good faith unable to understand "defensive", "independent", "consensus", and "voice"; but the civil reaction is to tweak either the new text or the old, in the hope of converging to compromise, not reversion. The answers above are mine, where unsigned. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:47, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
All assertions which do not have a prose attribution or acknowledgment of an opposing views should be opposed by nobody or by sources which it would be undue weight to mention.
If no source opposes a given assertion, there's no problem with it. If the sources that oppose it are so few that it would be undue weight to mention, still no problem. Other statements are significantly opposed, and should either have a prose attribution to a specific source, or should be accompanied by acknowledgement of opposing views." All this (all a restatement of policy) to explain "consensus", used in the sense of WP:CONSENSUS, but applied to sources, not to editors.
Simple, clear English like "Organizations and individuals that are widely acknowledged as extremist, whether of... other nature."? If I were as defensive as SlimVirgin, I would ask what "other nature" meant, and how it construed; but since it was obvious enough what she was trying to say here, I preferred to edit it, Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:59, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
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Can all those news sources that appear in Google news be taken as Reliable Sources? My personal belief is that we should take them all to be reliable publications as Google accepts them based on their compliance with certain parameters.This will help us in case of issues where parties attack a publication saying it is not reliable and also help us understand which publications are nationally recognised worldwide. 59.176.17.19 09:21, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
It would appear that the policy page has been returned from Historical to active status or at least that there is a movement afoot to do so, so I have taken the liberty of commenting out the historical tag here. If this movement carries on it may be appropriate to unprotect the page as well in accordance with common practice. ++ Lar: t/ c 16:39, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
It sure seems like maintaining a policy and duplicate guideline would be less then a perfect solution. I suggest that Wikipedia:Reliable sources be merged and redirected to Wikipedia:Attribution#Reliable_sources as you can see http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Template:Unreferenced&curid=1440745&diff=116750158&oldid=115646489 already it is not clear which one is the guiding principle. Signed Jeepday 14:43, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
This section seems to go a little too far. There are contexts in which such sources are valuable (cf. Godwin's law), mainly for establishing first date of public appearance. I do of course undertand the point this section is trying to make, I think it is just overbroad. While the content of some random Usenet post is potentially highly questionable, the archived timestamp on it probably isn't and in many cases may be the only source for the date in question. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ contrib ツ 19:48, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Archived Usenet posts (i.e. through Google-Groups archives) should be an allowable source for historical references... for example historical announcements of software releases. I just noticed that a cited reference of a release date using this source was removed from a page, citing this policy as a reason for removal. An exception is needed. -- Thoric 23:10, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
The edit made here should be restored. The change it fixed was made without consensus, the edit to make that fix had consensus here, and not only did the revert of the edit that made that fix not have any discussion, the reverter even effectively joined in the consensus. There is no "stability" clause anywhere, much less one that justifies reverting the repairing of damage to a guideline simply to make it agree temporarily with a page the future existence or status of which is heavily disputed. Also, the revert made WP:RS not agree with WP:ATT any longer, so "stability" urgers are thwarting their own goals with this page protection. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ contrib ツ 19:37, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Please don't make changes right now. As most of you know, this page was merged into the FAQ page at WP:ATT, and was made historical ... well, Jimbo has asked us to do a poll on whether ATT has consensus or not, the result of which will affect this page. That is the only reason why this page is back to being active. For people to be able to decide properly in that poll, it is important that the various policies and guidelines that were merged into ATT stay in the same version that they were in when the merge took place. This is not the time to be making changes. Once it is determined whether this page will rolled into ATT or not ... then we can suggest changes at the appropriate location. Please be patient. Blueboar 00:05, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
I have protected this page to maintain stability while the WP:ATT situation is being sorted out. Crum375 00:35, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia talk:Attribution/Community discussion
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:13, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
There should be a prominent merge tag posted on this page, directing people to the discussion, which is supposed to be trying to attract as many people as possible. This is the very problem that led to the current dispute: that there had been no merge tag on this and similar pages while discussions about possibly merging were going on. Would someone please correct this and put up the merge tags? -- Coppertwig 00:11, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
The project page needs {{
Mergeto|Attribution}}
(see
Wikipedia:Attribution/Poll - merge has been proposed). —
SMcCandlish [
talk] [
contrib ツ 19:37, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
The last paragraph of Types of source material contains a misspelling ("polititian" should be "politician") that you might want to fix when (or if) editing of that page is again permitted. -- Rich Janis 09:02, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
... and we are discussing the subject in a community wide debate. The merge template makes no sense, is confusing and adds nothing. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:59, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
"Acceptable Sources" is a far more accurate and honest descripton than "Reliable Sources" to describe the basis on which sources are allowed to be used in wiki. A certain blog may be far more informed and reliable on a particular topic than a national newspaper, but the former is an unacceptable source and the latter is an acceptable one, regardless of its reliability. In reality the so-called reliable sources may often have very dubious reliability, so it's rather naive to keep on using that word for them. It also makes it harder for editors to understand why a source may or may not be used, when on occasion they see something which they know is unreliable being called reliable and vice versa. Tyrenius 02:34, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
"Acceptable" to me intends to imply a binary standard of reliability, which does seem to be the stance taken by WP:ATT. "Significant" might work for a sliding scale of reliability that depends on circumstances, consistent with the spirit of WP:NPOV. Wikipedia:Reliable sources has been in conflict between those who prefer a binary stanard of reliability and those who prefer a sliding scale adjustable depending on circumstances for as long as I have been discussing things here. "Reliable" is probably the most inclusive, even if not the most accurate. — Armed Blowfish ( talk| mail) 02:23, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
See Wikipedia talk:Attribution/Community discussion#RS_and_NPOV. You can participate at Wikipedia:Undue weight (sources). Thanks, Armed Blowfish ( talk| mail) 03:31, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Header. I was asked by an admin from WP:RFPP to come up with a combination of the merge header from WP:RS (as of this writing) and the protection header from WP:ATT, to be used on both WP:V and WP:RS, and propose it on the talk pages of both. Above, someone has raised issues that might be addressed by a similar custom message here. My take at this is located at the link above. By belief is that this version will satisfy everyone. It has the text (with twiddles that make it apply to this page instead of ATT, V or NOR) from ATT's tag, with the merge tag formatting of the one presently at RS. I believe it would obviate the need to continue editprotecting about the need for a merge tag. I think it also absorbs all the ideas of the template in the topic above, too. Any objections? It looks like this:
PS: I has a noinclude variant in it for the case that protection is reinstated here.
— SMcCandlish [ talk] [ contrib ツ 19:22, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
PPS: No, it didn't really take me half a day to take the trash out. I got tired and went to bed. :-) — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ contrib ツ 19:28, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Jimbo Wales requested a poll to gauge community thoughts on the Wikipedia:Attribution merger. A poll for this is being crafted, and is somewhat close to done. Concensus for the past 24 hours (with the occasional dissenting voice of course) that the thing is close to done. Only the main question is still heavily debated. A pre-poll straw poll is here:
Wikipedia_talk:Attribution/Poll#Q1_Straw_poll_duration
To sort that out. Accepted group concensus seems to be to pre-poll to 4/1/07 22:00 and then launch a site-wide poll (again, as implied/requested by Jimbo) at 4/2/07 00:00. Please help hash out the wording for that last quesion. - Denny 13:31, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't be too controversial.
Wikinews's mission in part is to act as a reliable source for wikipedia, so if we then don't allow it, that would be silly.
Certain usenet FAQs and posts are considered canonical wrt usenet itself. It seems fairly safe to make that as a clarification on self published sources. This doesn't quite cover (in)famous documents like the sci.skeptic faq though. Hmm.
Actually, another reliable wiki is wikisource, which replicates reliable sources that can be freely published.
I'll add that as another example. If the list gets really long, we might need to refactor/move elsewhere/ do something else :-/
-- Kim Bruning 11:24, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Per comments on the Talk page here, and in other locales, it appears groups of editors are specifically against Jimbo's specifically requested public poll to gauge thoughts/support on the idea of the ATT merger. As it has been stated that the Poll is "dead" per users such as User:WAS 4.250, I am nominating this. If there is wide spread support to run this poll, this page should be kept. The MfD is here:
Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Attribution/Poll
Thank you. - Denny 16:12, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Looking at the discussion archives, I see that the paragraph on banning "extremist sources" didn't get consensus. In fact it is silly and "extremist" is a meaningless term. Are we going to ban the US gov as a source because it is widely recognized as an extremist warmonger? Are we going to ban the Islam media as a source because the US media widely call them extremist? -- BMF81 17:50, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Well we could start with the Index of Forbidden Books and expand from there. What about adding to it " The English Revolution, 1640" (pub 1940) after all Christopher Hill was a communist. -- Philip Baird Shearer 18:43, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
What is an extremest? It seems to me from its use here to be a word rather like terrorist that it is a pejorative term. "It is a word with intrinsically negative connotations that is generally applied to one's enemies and opponents, or to those with whom one disagrees and would otherwise prefer to ignore."(see: Terrorist#Pejorative use). Given the systemic bias of this project, I think that WP:ATT/ WP:RS is enough, particularly the sections " Exceptional claims require exceptional sources" and " Self-published sources" without the need to define what an extremist source is. For an example of what I mean see Muhammad al-Durrah who is the extremest in that article? On issues like Global warming which is the extremest position? For example is the Great Warming Swindle an extremest piece? Given the talk page disputes which happen, any codification of extremism will inevitably be used as a club by extremists on the other side of a coin to club their rivals. -- Philip Baird Shearer 10:18, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
In the discussion archive there are many users complaining on the absurdity of such a paragraph. If some users are so opposed on removing it, we should at least include in it the concerns raised here.-- BMF81 11:52, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
This news website requires users to register and log in before they can view the newspaper's online articles. Does this not hinder its utility as a source?-- h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 14:04, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
The New York Times is always (with the usual caveats) I suppose a fine source. If an article is published, it's published. Hiding it behind a registration or a "pay to view" option after x months should never be disqualifying. You can always microfiche it, if you feel like it. Any implication that only "immediately available" or "handily available" sources are OK is nutty. :) Old english tomes from the 15th century may be fine sources, but given I'll likely never be in England or able to read ye Olde English doesn't mean that they aren't good sources... same idea. Or, given I can't read Cyrillic, doesn't exclude Russian sources, etc. - Denny 15:35, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
A proper and complete newspaper citation does not require a hyperlink. As long as the publisher, date, author, and title (and page number if available) is there, it is a good cite. Someone viewing the citation at a library computer can go right over to the reference desk and look that article up. That is the essence of verifiability. Humans were writing proper citations long before any electronic media existed. A hyperlink in the citation of a brick and mortar newspaper is simply a convenience. Whether it is free, free registration, or pay per article does not matter. - Crockspot 17:33, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
One of my pet peeves is a direct inline hyperlink to a RS news article that does not include any info but the link. If that article gets moved to a new URL, it can be very difficult to relocate without anything but a hyperlink to go by. Although sometimes there are good clues in the URL itself, such as a date or author name in the directory structure. Yahoo news links are notorious for going dead, and providing few clues. - Crockspot 19:58, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
I propose this addition: Note that these posts can be used to provide examples of common word usage, regarding for example slang words or newly invented words or new meanings for old words. In that regard they serve the purpose of a vocabulary clipping file. When dealing with new words lexicographers look for actual quotations showing how the word is used by ordinary people. The blogs are excellent sources for common ordinary usage of new words, slang words, and the like. That is they don't give a definition of the word (only reliable sources do that), but they use the word and thus the lexicographer takes notes. For 100 years they have been using sources like letters to newspapers, which are like blogs. Rjensen 20:08, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
I have a technical and administrative question regarding one paragraph in the criticism section on the Debito Arudou entry. Apologies to those who may think this background is unnecessary. On 25 October 2005, the Japan Times published an interview with author Alex Kerr. In one of the questions, the interviewer specifically asks Kerr about the political activist activities of the WP subject, Debito Arudou. Kerr responded critically of Arudou's tactics as a form of conflict resolution, while still acknowledging positively "that gaijin and their gaijin ways are now part of Japan's new civil society." Seeing how (1) it was critical (and therefore appropriate for the criticism section), (2) published in a mainstream newspaper, and (3) not original research (a clear WP policy requirement), the WP article was edited to include a brief synoposis of Kerr's criticisms and concerns, being sure to (1) document the source for the reader for further reference, and (2) include specific quotes from that interview for flavor. Like it or not, a publicly verifiable criticism was made. Yesterday, the subject of the criticism (understandably) seized an opportunity on the coattails of another blogger to publicly criticize Kerr's commentary on his own personal blog and e-mail distribution lists, perhaps to force a retraction. For the subject's criticisms of Kerr, see: "Alex Kerr falls into 'Guestism' arguments with unresearched arguments" at < http://www.debito.org/index.php>. Apparently, Kerr responded. However, the editing questions are now many: (1) the alleged clarification was posted on the subject's personal blog (is this considered a self-serving and unacceptable source?), (2) the subject himself, claiming to post on behalf of Alex Kerr, posted the reply (is this still considered reliable?), (3) the clarification still points out that, in Kerr's experience, these confrontational tactics do not work while clarifying the comment to read "no doubt that a stronger, more direct approach is appropriate [in the subject's case.]" (not necessarily a retraction, but a clarification?) and (4) both the subject and (apparently) Kerr are publicly asking their friends and supporters to "amend that Wikipedia article to indicate that [Kerr] wholly support[s] [the subject's] activities and [his] methods."
What to do?
1. Ignore the WP subject's personal blog entry and the posted clarification for the problems stated above?
2. Somehow request on the subject's WP talk page that a clarification be sent by Kerr to the Letters page of the Japan Times where the criticisms were original published for reliable accuracy?
3. Completely delete all mention of the initial public criticism? (No doubt this option is what some WP subjects would prefer)
4. Append another brief footnote to the initial criticism mentioning that, due to public criticism from the WP subject, actvisit Debito Arudou, on [such and such date], Alex Kerr responded on [such and such date] and then attach a hyperlink to the WP subject's personal blog comments where Kerr's clarifications may be found?
Any advice on how to proceed would be much appreciated? J Readings 19:05, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Would this qualify as a reliable source? Are page on the site dayd that it has some users contributing to the site, of course since there is an oversight process this wouldn't necessary disqualify it from being reliable. Aaron Bowen 23:15, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
A Ms. Daisy wrote a book. A Mr. Smith, who is a retired Prof. of Psychology, has reviewed this book for a popular magazine (not a scientific publication). In his review, Mr. Smith gave an assessment of Ms. Daisy's personality based on the book.
A dispute has erupted in the talk page of the article devoted to Ms. Daisy over whether Mr. Smith's review is a reliable source for an assessment of Ms. Daisy's personality.
What do you think? Itayb 13:09, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Suppose Dr. Smith's words were published in a letter to the editor, rather than in a book review. Would your opinion of it change? Please explain. Itayb 06:48, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
This wont be a problem for very long as the magazine is released in a week, but on the Grand Theft Auto IV page, information which is from a leaked issue of Game Informer magazine is being added. I've been trying to find a policy on using sources that are not officially released but I can't seem to find one. At this point all the information seems legitimate, but for a reader it is not easily verifiable as the reader cannot go out and buy the magazine to make sure it's correct. They'd have to hunt down scans on the web which I'm sure GI will start to have removed soon. Is a leaked magazine scan/photos of a printed magazine a reliable source? ● BillPP ( talk| contribs) 16:37, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks everyone for your input. I've been informed that the magazine was not leaked, but infact was delivered to a subscriber much earlier than the release date that the magazine states. I assume this changes the published status, but it still means that the material is not available to most readers of the article to verify. Is the magazine now an acceptible source? ● BillPP ( talk| contribs) 18:57, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
For normal wikipedia articles, we should use experts in the fields. The "criticism of X" articles are different as many notable critics do not have such qualifications. But they are notable as vocal critics. These critics sometimes make nasty accusations which in the case of the Jews could be classified as "antisemitism" or in the case of Islam as "Islamophobia". The question is whether we should include them or not. What is the exact criterion? -- Aminz 06:19, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
"However, when such a link is hosted on a less reliable site, the linked version should be checked for accuracy against the original, or not linked at all if such verification is not possible."
I'm not sure this is entirely correct. A "convenience link" is not the reference itself, it is, as the name conveys, a possible aid to the reader. First of all, if we have any doubts about the veracity of the convenience link, we shouldn't be using it at all. Beyond that, in my opinion, the onus should be on the reader to decide whether they trust the contents of such a link. Caveat emptor. -- kingboyk 11:02, 12 April 2007 (UTC) (See The KLF which uses convenience links, albeit at a site hosted by a Wikipedian).
Suppose a document, which had been published by a reliable source, is archived at a questionable website, such as a widely acknowledged racist site. Can the source be cited, linking to the archived version? Itayb 16:56, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
I have removed most references to WP:ATT as it is far from clear that it is policy.
I have also restored some information which was deleted during the last couple of months while the debate over WP:ATT has been going on. Which may have been deleted because it was in WP:ATT or in the WP:ATT/FAQ. Either way I think there needs to be a debate over whether it is removed from this guideline. Specifically the scholarly sources/Non-scholarly sources. I have also separated out the merger of "Partisan, corporate, institutional and religious sources" and "Extremist sources" as I do not think that they are the same thing. Again I think this should be discussed in detail if they are to be merged. -- Philip Baird Shearer 16:02, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Should the section "scholarly sources" be kept modified or deleted? -- Philip Baird Shearer 16:02, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Should the section "Non-scholarly sources" be kept modified or deleted? -- Philip Baird Shearer 16:02, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
I do not think that the sections "Partisan, corporate, institutional and religious sources" and "Extremist sources" be merged. what do others think -- Philip Baird Shearer 16:02, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
"Due to the legal sensitivity of these articles as well as moral obligations, do not include anything on living persons, if you cannot find a legitimate secondary source to rely on." is a first cut at an issue arose over a section in a biography of a living person which highlighted the problem of relying on primary sources. See Wikipedia talk:Attribution/Community discussion#NOR and the entry on Christopher Michael Langan: lessons, and Talk:Christopher Michael Langan#WP:NOR - removing original research, do not re-insert unless you have a source other than original research (and other sections on that page) -- Philip Baird Shearer 17:55, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Can someone please look at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject New York City Public Transportation#Subway Car Edits? Thank you. -- NE2 20:11, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
What do you think about updating the rather incomplete Wikipedia:Reliable sources/examples (has it ever been approved as an official extension of the RS policy?) with text from WP:ATT/FAQ#What_kinds_of_sources_are_generally_regarded_as_reliable.3F, WP:ATT/FAQ#What_kinds_of_sources_are_generally_regarded_as_unreliable.3F and WP:ATT/FAQ#Questions_about_the_reliability_of_specific_sources?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 20:25, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
The page of WP:ATT/FAQ is extremely raw and controversial to be upgraded to a policy status. What is really behind this is an attempt to get an official policy stamp on allowing to use non-academic newsarticles as reliable sources about remote history, putting them on equal footing with peer-reviwed historic article, scholarly books and other serious academic sources. More at Talk:Przyszowice massacre. -- Irpen 06:52, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
There was recent confusion during the discussion of ATT about the role of RS, with people thinking RS was policy, and V was something else. In fact, a lot of what people found important in RS had been copied from V and NOR. To minimize this confusion, I've removed the section from V and NOR that were repetitive (which I inserted in the first place), so that it's clear RS is a separate thing from V and NOR. SlimVirgin (talk) 22:47, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Sorry for the revert SV but can you please slow down and discuss the changes to each section first? -- Philip Baird Shearer 23:08, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
I did not oppose WP:ATT. I did not vote but I expressed a support for the one article approach although I was not happy with the changes (intended or otherwise) in the wording between the two.
I am not against changing this page but I think you should talk through the changes you wish to make in detail rather than making very large changes. Now what do we do with text that is in this guideline, (as is shown above), that is not in the the policies. I think that there is a need for a guideline such as this one to expand on the points made in the policy. This is what happens in the WP:NC and seems to work quite well there. -- Philip Baird Shearer 07:55, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I am sorry but do you realy mean that "There shouldn't be text here about those issue that isn't in the policies"? Guidlines frequently expand on what is written in policy articles. Without that Policy articles become bloated with details and examples. --
Philip Baird Shearer 18:01, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
An interesting question has been raised on WP:BLPN which I'd like to raise here as well for some input. Numerous major media outlets such as newspapers and broadcasters have established their own blogs to serve as a sort of 24/7 op-ed page. One of the best developed examples that I know of is the UK Guardian's Commentisfree blog. It's clearly run with editorial oversight, which makes sense given that legal liability issues apply just as much to a blog as to a dead tree publication. On the other hand, some other newspaper or journal blogs such as National Review's The Corner blog give no indication that they're subject to editorial oversight. So it would seem that we have two categories of mainstream media blogs - those that are explicitly overseen by editorial staffs, and those for whom there's no evidence of editorial oversight.
How do we deal with this distinction? Should we accept major-publication blogs as a source if they are subject to editorial oversight? In practical terms, what's the distinction between such blogs and conventional print-format op-ed pages? Are non-editorially overseen media blogs truly self-published if the actual publisher is a reputable media outlet? -- ChrisO 23:06, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi Ms Virgin,
You are apparently famous. I have seen your name around.
Regarding this edit, I do not think I agree with you. I hope you will give my argument fair consideration.
I think that as editors, people must use judgment about sources. I think it is not unreasonable to consider various factors in that review. For example a very old cited and researched article might be overcome by something more recent. The age of the article becomes relevant. But that was one of the things you removed, saying "No original research". I do not think it is the same as original research to use editorial oversight and judgment. -- Blue Tie 23:07, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
I found the section useful in a recent debate. Currently the RS policy doesn't state if non-scholarly publications are reliable or not - for example, there is no answer to a simple question: "Are newspapers articles acceptable sources or not".-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 02:51, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
This seems like a rather rigid way to view undue weight. There are many levels of weight, and limitting usage of a source to the article about itself is just one of them. Usage of extremist sources should be limitted, but I believe it is basically a matter of a) only using them as primary sources for their own opinions, which of course need to be phrased as indirect statements ( WP:NPOV#Attributing_and_substantiating_biased_statements) and b) not giving their opinions undue weight ( WP:NPOV#Undue_weight). We could provide more guidance on how much weight is due weight, but its more of a scale than just "in articles about themselves".
— Armed Blowfish ( mail) 03:45, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Doesn't the "extremist" clause partly disagree with the NPOV policy? And whatever value is in this clause is already covered by the V and NPOV policies, isn't it? I suggest it be deleted. Itayb 08:06, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I've reworded. I seem to have edit-conflicted with someone who points out that "extremist" is an attack phrase, and we don't want to have Position X find someone on their side who says that Position Y is extremist, and then purge Position Y from Wikipedia. This is a valid warning; but I think there is consensus of the sources (in our sense) that the neo-Nazis are in fact extremist. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:57, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I think, as should be clear, that weasel words are appropriate to assertions in Wikipedia space. To say or imply always or never is often false, but to supply exact figures and examples as to how many "peer-reviewed" journals are organs almost universally regarded as extremist (there are some) would be a waste of space here. But if it doesn't meet Itayb's objections, I repeat, fine: away with it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:56, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Neutral Point of View#Undue_weight is rather vague when it comes to determining exactly what due weight is. Couldn't we write something that provides more guidance on that? — Armed Blowfish ( mail) 01:42, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
If I write in an article that "Holy Book ABC says ____ in chapter 30:22" -- this is okay, correct? We're just quoting a religious source. What is the way to go about this? Some users are protesting that this is "Primary Source" and should be removed and I disagree. We're simply quoting what the religious source says. What are the procedures to do this correctly? Quote it exactly as it is in quotes? -- Matt57 ( talk• contribs) 13:35, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
This is the 2nd time that Matt57 has pulled something like this. Please see User_talk:Bbatsell#A_small_question_about_blocked_users, where initially, Matt57 asked his question in such a vague way in order to the admin to agree with him, and then proceeded to use this as an argument to push his POV. Then, when the admin in question found out, he chastised Matt57 for being disingenuous. I am afraid that the same problem is happening here. You see, Matt57 is not merely quoting religious text, he is interpreting it as well. See this:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/078.qmt.html#078.034
That is the citation appended to "big breasts" in the 72 virgins article. Where does that say big breasts? That is called original research, and by agreeing with matt57, that is what you are unduly supporting.-- Ķĩřβȳ ♥ ♥ ♥ Ťįɱé Ø 00:41, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
The problem this guideline has had from day one is the poor quality of the writing, and the lack of clarity of thought. We're in the top ten websites and editors come to these pages looking for advice, yet all we deliver is a confusing mish-mash of imprecise, poorly expressed personal opinion. Example:
Organizations and individuals that are widely acknowledged as extremist, whether for political, religious or anti-religious, racist, or other extremism, produce literature which is often defensive and rarely reviewed by any independent authority. It is normally of extremely limited reliability, except perhaps on the group itself; even there, claims about the groups' history and purpose are often non-consensus. Use with caution; and see also WP:FRINGE.
Do remember, however, that "extremist" is a common pejorative. Deciding that a group is extremist should require the same wide consensus of authority as making an assertion as a fact, in Wikipedia's voice.
Compare it to what was there before the edit.
Organizations and individuals that are widely acknowledged as extremist, whether of a political, religious or anti-religious, racist, or other nature, should be used only as sources about themselves and their activities in articles about themselves, and even then with caution.
Please someone explain to me how the former improved the latter. SlimVirgin (talk) 15:32, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I find it difficult to believe that an experienced Wikipedia editor is in good faith unable to understand "defensive", "independent", "consensus", and "voice"; but the civil reaction is to tweak either the new text or the old, in the hope of converging to compromise, not reversion. The answers above are mine, where unsigned. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:47, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
All assertions which do not have a prose attribution or acknowledgment of an opposing views should be opposed by nobody or by sources which it would be undue weight to mention.
If no source opposes a given assertion, there's no problem with it. If the sources that oppose it are so few that it would be undue weight to mention, still no problem. Other statements are significantly opposed, and should either have a prose attribution to a specific source, or should be accompanied by acknowledgement of opposing views." All this (all a restatement of policy) to explain "consensus", used in the sense of WP:CONSENSUS, but applied to sources, not to editors.
Simple, clear English like "Organizations and individuals that are widely acknowledged as extremist, whether of... other nature."? If I were as defensive as SlimVirgin, I would ask what "other nature" meant, and how it construed; but since it was obvious enough what she was trying to say here, I preferred to edit it, Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:59, 16 April 2007 (UTC)