This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
In WP:NKICK, it is written: "A kickboxing athlete is presumed notable if they:
With all due respect, this is criteria is severely outdated and in dire need of an update. Firstly, there are many more titles that are much more coveted than or just as coveted as the WMC and WBC MuayThai belts: the Channel 7 Stadium title, the Siam Omnoi Stadium title, the Thailand (PAT) title, the True4u title, the OneSongchai (S1) title, and the World MuayThai Organization (WMO) title.
To understand why there are so many "important" titles requires some understanding of the current Muay Thai scene. For example, the Lumpinee Stadium, Channel 7 Stadium, and Thailand (PAT) titles are heavily associated with the Kiatpetch promotion and its affiliates while the WBC MuayThai, WMO, and True4u titles are heavily associated with the Petchyindee promotion and its affiliates, then, the Rajadamnern title is associated with the New Power Group, Singmawin, Jitmuangnon and more promotions.
The Petchyindee promotion and the Chefboonthum promotion, some of the largest promotions in Muay Thai today, recently broke away from Rajadamnern Stadium (July 2020) and are now both operating out of Rangsit Stadium. All of their respective belt holders at Rajadamnern Stadium were accordingly stripped of their Rajadamnern Stadium titles and can no longer compete for either major Stadium titles listed in WP:NKICK. Though it is possible for Petchyindee fighters to fight for the WBC MuayThai title, it is rare that this kind of title fight happens. This is why the True4u title is more important than ever in the Petchyindee circuit, especially since it is the main title for the promotion. Additionally, the WMO is quickly overtaking the WMC as one of the leading sanctioning bodies in Muay Thai, having crowned multiple high level champions like Satanmuanglek CP Freshmart in the past four months alone. On the other hand, at the moment, the Chefboonthum promotion has no affiliation to any major sanctioning body so their fighters cannot fight for a belt of any kind. This current predicament is reportedly temporary.
On to Channel 7 Stadium [1] and Thailand titles: Channel 7 Stadium is home to the Kiatpetch, Poon Seua, Rachanon, among other promotions. Ever since the late 2000s, the title has been one of the most sought after in the Muay Thai world. Legends like Wanchalong PK.Saenchai and Jomhod Eminentair have held the belt, respectively, four and three times on separate occasions and defended the belt regularly against top competition who are also highly ranked at Lumpinee Stadium. The Thailand belt holder is also commonly called the "national champion" even though it can only competed for in the Kiatpetch circuit. The belt acts as an alternate for the Lumpinee Stadium title and holds similar value but less prestige (less history behind it).
The Siam Omnoi Stadium title is also a coveted title. What makes it interesting is that fighters from almost any promotion can fight for the belt. The Stadium has been a staple in the Muay Thai world since the late 80s and in fact, it is widely considered among the top four major stadiums in Thailand [2]
Siam Fight Mag's Serge Trefeu wrote an article exactly on this topic of major titles in Muay Thai: https://www.siamfightmag.com/en/muaythai-en/reports-en/others-reports-muaythai-en/488-the-omnoi-stadium
Secondly, major tournaments winners and Fighter of the Year award recipients should be eligible for their own article. The biggest tournaments in Muay Thai are: the annual Isuzu Tournament at Siam Omnoi Stadium, the annual Tiger Cement Tournament at Channel 7 Stadium, the CP Meiji Tournament under Suk Petchyindee, the Lumpinee Tournament at Lumpinee Stadium, and the Toyota Revo Tournament.
Lastly, Muay Thai should have its own section in this Notability page. Aside from it being a striking sport, Muay Thai have its own distinct ruleset from kickboxing. Namely, the prolonged clinch striking, striking off caught kicks, the use of elbows, throws, sweeps and trips, and more.
Thank you for reading and considering the suggestions made above.
PhanKS1505 ( talk) 01:37, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
References
I don't know much about cricket, but User:Reywas92 raised an issue today at the general Notability talk page about the "mass-production" of articles on cricket players. I took a look and found Anthony Hanley, a one-sentence stub created today about an athlete who played in one "first-class" match. Do others have thoughts on this? Is the standard for cricket players too lenient? Do we believe there is likely to be sufficient coverage to show that such a player would pass WP:GNG? Is this a problem? If so, how do we fix it? I am also pinging User:Lugnuts to the discussion, as he is the one who created the article. Feedback welcome. Cbl62 ( talk) 02:56, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
We should get rid of NCRIC (at least the current version, but perhaps completely if no better version can be made), as it allows way too many articles on people who don't meet the GNG. This has been discussed in the past, with examples, but nothing ever happens, and AfDs are pointless as people turn up to vote "meets NCRIC" without further sources. Fram ( talk) 10:46, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
Note. I have placed a note on the talk page of WP:CRIC to notify them of this discussion. wjemather please leave a message... 11:07, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
In general about this discussion: nobody can show if these cricketeers are notable or not, so what is needed is an investigation. For the sources we should look into the secondary sources of that era and that country. I'm not aware of South African newspapers accesible online, so we are unable to find the Anthony Hanley sources via internet I'm from the Netherlands and I don't know anything about cricket but I know where to look for Dutch secondary sources. When looking for a pre-internet Dutch cricketeer I find Chris van Schouwenburg (around 1979). When google-ing him, no good secondary sources could be found see here. So most of the people above will say: unnotable player. However, when digging into old Dutch newspapers many good sources can be found. Five examples from Dutch national newspapers to show that he will easily meet GNG 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. So to state Anthony Hanley is notable, we have to find old South African newspapers with cricket, to see what is written about him. However, I think we don't have access to those newspapers. What we can do, is to look into old newspapers searching for the native "first-class match" players, so see ~90% is meeting GNG. If so, we can state that for those countries we don't have the access to, it's likely they will meet GNG. SportsOlympic ( talk) 15:31, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
This is not a new problem; I remember the WP:CRIN wars from a few years ago, and just today in looking at Category:Orphaned articles from December 2012 I found many cricketers with one first-class appearance and no real sign of notability, such as Sean Parry, Michael Hardy, and Vernon Hill (cricketer, born 1978). (There are plenty of footballers as well.) I don't see any new ideas here to solve this, unfortunately. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 07:31, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
If it were "one competitive appearance in a fully professional competition with FC, LA or T20 status" it would be tighter. GNG is always there to add amateurs who don't meet this criteria - including the majority of the people playing T20I for very minor teams. The fully professional bit is, I think, a requirement of FOOTY from memory - one which draws a line substantially higher than CRIC does. But, you know, this has been discussed for years. There might be consensus for adding the word "competitive". Maybe. Not sure about "fully professional" though. But I'm not convinced anything will change. WP:CRIN - the extended version - is a disaster by the way; very little of it was discussed and much of it is the work of one person who's banned. Blue Square Thing ( talk) 17:38, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
..free access to the sum of all human knowledge.: But WP is WP:NOTEVERYTHING either.— Bagumba ( talk) 01:26, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
Note: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Christopher Martin (cricketer), where keepers argued that WP:CRIN was met, has been closed as "delete".— Bagumba ( talk) 01:09, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Arthur Norton, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Collan Nicholas, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lewis Newnham, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Craig Nelson (cricketer), and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Frederick Nel. Reywas92 Talk 04:47, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
I've been under the impression that our WP:YOUNGATH disqualifies routine coverage of a person from their youth sports days from ever being used for notability purposes. I've seen a couple AfD votes where some users have claimed WP:YOUNGATH no longer applies since the person is above the age of 18, so their prep sports coverage can count towards notability (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kezo Brown.) This doesn't make sense to me - for instance if you have a footballer who doesn't pass WP:NFOOTY and WP:GNG as an adult is marginal, but received significant coverage from the local paper as a youth athlete, that WP:SIGCOV may lead us to keep the article. Does WP:YOUNGATH exclude all qualifying youth sports coverage for notability purposes? (Obviously, some athletes are notable young, such as that baseball player who was on the cover of Sports Illustrated - these are not the subjects I care about with this question.) SportingFlyer T· C 22:33, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
That being said, a couple extra thoughts. First, I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the concept that heavy and detailed local coverage might satisfy the GNG if the subject is >18, but can't if the subject is <18. This curious notion certainly doesn't apply to other walks of life; coverage is coverage. Secondly, why is this SNG needed at all? What does it cover that the other NSPORTS SNGs don't? Pretty uniformly, they set forth the competitions that provide presumptive notability, and leave out the ones that don't. Not a single one of them confer presumptive notability to American high school sports. Ravenswing 16:10, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
Local sources must be independent of the subject, and must provide reports beyond routine game coverage.This is in agreement with the corresponding guidance for young athletes, which says that the need for non-routine coverage
excludes the majority of local coverage in both news sources and sports specific publications.This viewpoint has been reaffirmed repeatedly in discussions on this talk page. It's not that local coverage is completely barred (regardless of the age of the athlete), but it frequently is routine coverage, is not independent, or is written from a promotional perspective, which is common in sports journalism. isaacl ( talk) 22:26, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
I've rewritten the section to clarify the feedback above. The proposal is below. This is based on Cbl62's intepretation of extending this guideline to coaches and youth sports organisations - if this isn't agreeable, we can always remove that part.
Youth athletes
Youth athletes (including high school and secondary school athletes when an athlete participates on a team, or any athlete under the age of 18), youth coaches, and youth sports organisations are notable only if they have received, as individuals, substantial and prolonged coverage that is: (1) independent of the subject; and (2) clearly goes beyond WP:ROUTINE coverage. The first clause excludes all school papers and school websites that cover their sports teams and other teams they compete against. The second clause excludes the majority of local coverage in both news sources and sports specific publications. It especially excludes using game play summaries, statistical results, or routine interviews as sources to establish notability. For individuals, these sources cannot be used to demonstrate notability even if the article subject has graduated high school/secondary school or is now 18 or older.
Feedback is very welcome.
SportingFlyer
T·
C 21:42, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
Certain types of coverage are considered WP:ROUTINE and are not counted in determining whether an athlete or coach satisfies the WP:GNG standard. Examples of such WP:ROUTINE coverage include (i) listings in comprehensive databases (such as those published by Sports Reference and ESPN.com), (ii) statistical listings (such as a newspaper's listing of player batting averages); (iii) passing mentions in game coverage; and (iv) lists of transactions, including hirings, firings, releases, and injuries (examples here and here)."
This includes listings in database sources with low, wide-sweeping generic standards of inclusion, such as Sports Reference's college football and basketball databases.— Bagumba ( talk) 06:24, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
I've noticed that ABA League (Adriatic league) is not listed among WP:NBASKETBALL's list of leagues leading to presumed notability. I found that in practice, players from that league are widely assumed notable, see e.g. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Denis Agre or Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Martin Junaković. Plus, the league has regularly provided prospects for the NBA draft and some of the national teams from the area are good by European standards. It seems that ABA League should be included in the list. Or are there any strong objections I'm not seeing? Modussiccandi ( talk) 22:48, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I propose that WP:NFOOTY be amended as follows to require that players to have been in three competitive games instead of just one:
Players who have played, and managers who have managed, in any three competitive games between two teams from fully professional leagues will generally be regarded as notable.
rebuttable presumptionmeans "permanent unappealable exemption from WP:V and WP:GNG". There is no shortage AfDs where the nominator has clearly laid out a failed search for sources beyond database scrapes and gets shouted down by wikiproject enthusiasts coming in to go "speedy keep- meets WP:NBLERP". This proposal may be going off on a bit of a tangent but it's at least heading vaguely in the right direction. Reyk YO! 09:27, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
I would like to propose that the notability guidelines are improved. It is more notable to become an All-American in the NCAA division I than it is to just play one time in a professional league. I also think the list of leagues should be expanded to include those with millions of fans and high-profile players, such as Stephon Marbury and Tracy Mcgrady in the CBA (China). The leagues I believe are missing are ones RealGM.com cites as high-level professional ( Chinese Basketball Association, Liga Nacional de Básquet, and Baloncesto Superior Nacional. Each of the listed leagues have had more than twenty NBA players play in them in the last decade alone, they are the highest level in their respective regions, and each have a massive following. So if the other leagues are a distinction, they should be as well. Thanks for your consideration. Youngjtdyt ( talk) 17:45, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
Sorry about the broken hyperlink, and the has/had error *facepalm* Youngjtdyt ( talk) 17:47, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
@yosmiter Thanks for clearing that up. I couldn’t believe it wasn’t a thing yet haha but now I know why. As for the non-nba/lowest qualification: do you want me to tag non-nba players in those leagues that already have pages without meeting the 3 requirements? Youngjtdyt ( talk) 17:58, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
@Yosemiter Thanks for clearing that up. I couldn’t believe it wasn’t a thing yet haha but now I know why. As for the non-nba/lowest qualification: do you want me to tag non-nba players in those leagues that already have pages without meeting the 3 requirements? Youngjtdyt ( talk) 17:59, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
@ Yosemiter Thanks for clearing that up. I couldn’t believe it wasn’t a thing yet haha but now I know why. As for the non-nba/lowest qualification: do you want me to tag non-nba players in those leagues that already have pages without meeting the 3 requirements?
Sorry about the mishaps Youngjtdyt ( talk) 17:59, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
Gates played one game exactly and meets none of the other requirements. The same for Piñeiro. Is that sufficient? I will begin to search the other two leagues if so. Youngjtdyt ( talk) 19:47, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
Added a page break where I shouldn’t have. Apologies Youngjtdyt ( talk) 19:48, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
Gates played one game exactly and meets none of the other requirements. The same for Piñeiro. Is that sufficient? I will begin to search the other two leagues if so. Youngjtdyt ( talk) 19:50, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
Hello, I am going to attempt to clean up this thread and consolidate my position in this post. So far it has been determined that to qualify for an addition to the exiting notability guideline, a list of players who achieved such status in their own right and also have played minimally in the leagues I advocated would be required. I have composed a list; it is not complete but I do feel the volume is sufficient to make a case for one of the leagues, the Baloncesto Superior Nacional. The other two leagues (CBA, LNB) don’t seem to meet the requirements at this time, or at least to my research. They have 2 and 1 players only, respectively.
The list: (1 game) Eniel Polynice , Víctor Ávila , Raphiael Putney , Darius Rice , Isaiah Wilkerson , Kendall Williams , Yancy Gates , Isaiah Piñeiro , Karim Malpica, Kitwana Rhymer, Phil Jones
(2 games) Brian Butch , Ian Young (3 games) Martín Osimani
In summation, this is a list of 14 players who have been deemed notable and have not played in the NBA or any of the accepted leagues, have not been drafted in the first or second round of the NBA, and have not led the league in a major statistical category in the NBA G League or Continental Basketball Association.
@ Yosemiter: @ Nigej: @ Bagumba: Youngjtdyt ( talk) 01:29, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
Is there a way we can broaden the notability for women’s leagues to include more female athletes? It appears to me that while men garner more media attention, an encyclopedia would be found wanting if it used that standard while ignoring the obvious imbalance that exists. An example would be the NWHL an equivalent to the NHL. The NWHL is broadcasted on ESPN 3 and ABC, the athletes are professional and it is the highest level in the country. I wouldn’t stop at hockey either, just an example. I look forward to hearing some ideas on this, thanks! Youngjtdyt ( talk) 04:50, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
Hi guys, following the start of a discussion on the rugby union WikiProject, I propose that Georgia, Namibia and Uruguay should be added to the list of 'High Performance Unions' as listed by WP:NRU at Wikipedia:WikiProject Rugby union/Notability criteria. World Rugby currently lists 20 sides (17 of which are listed at WP:NRU along with Georgia, Namibia and Uruguay) as 'High Performance' as stated on page 8 of this document [7] and 5 emerging nations (I believe these should not be added at this time). The British & Irish Lions are not included but should also be kept on the WP:NRU list. I believe this document supersedes the one currently listed on the WP:NRU notability criteria as it is more up to date and because of the three sides recent improvements and increase in fixtures against other high performance unions. Rugbyfan22 ( talk) 13:35, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
As there's been no objections to the proposal and it's been up over a week. I'm going to go ahead and implement these changes per WP:BOLD. If anybody has any objections please contact here or on the rugby union WikiProject. Rugbyfan22 ( talk) 14:04, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
In WP:NKICK, it is written: "A kickboxing athlete is presumed notable if they:
With all due respect, this is criteria is severely outdated and in dire need of an update. Firstly, there are many more titles that are much more coveted than or just as coveted as the WMC and WBC MuayThai belts: the Channel 7 Stadium title, the Siam Omnoi Stadium title, the Thailand (PAT) title, the True4u title, the OneSongchai (S1) title, and the World MuayThai Organization (WMO) title.
To understand why there are so many "important" titles requires some understanding of the current Muay Thai scene. For example, the Lumpinee Stadium, Channel 7 Stadium, and Thailand (PAT) titles are heavily associated with the Kiatpetch promotion and its affiliates while the WBC MuayThai, WMO, and True4u titles are heavily associated with the Petchyindee promotion and its affiliates, then, the Rajadamnern title is associated with the New Power Group, Singmawin, Jitmuangnon and more promotions.
The Petchyindee promotion and the Chefboonthum promotion, some of the largest promotions in Muay Thai today, recently broke away from Rajadamnern Stadium (July 2020) and are now both operating out of Rangsit Stadium. All of their respective belt holders at Rajadamnern Stadium were accordingly stripped of their Rajadamnern Stadium titles and can no longer compete for either major Stadium titles listed in WP:NKICK. Though it is possible for Petchyindee fighters to fight for the WBC MuayThai title, it is rare that this kind of title fight happens. This is why the True4u title is more important than ever in the Petchyindee circuit, especially since it is the main title for the promotion. Additionally, the WMO is quickly overtaking the WMC as one of the leading sanctioning bodies in Muay Thai, having crowned multiple high level champions like Satanmuanglek CP Freshmart in the past four months alone. On the other hand, at the moment, the Chefboonthum promotion has no affiliation to any major sanctioning body so their fighters cannot fight for a belt of any kind. This current predicament is reportedly temporary.
On to Channel 7 Stadium [1] and Thailand titles: Channel 7 Stadium is home to the Kiatpetch, Poon Seua, Rachanon, among other promotions. Ever since the late 2000s, the title has been one of the most sought after in the Muay Thai world. Legends like Wanchalong PK.Saenchai and Jomhod Eminentair have held the belt, respectively, four and three times on separate occasions and defended the belt regularly against top competition who are also highly ranked at Lumpinee Stadium. The Thailand belt holder is also commonly called the "national champion" even though it can only competed for in the Kiatpetch circuit. The belt acts as an alternate for the Lumpinee Stadium title and holds similar value but less prestige (less history behind it).
The Siam Omnoi Stadium title is also a coveted title. What makes it interesting is that fighters from almost any promotion can fight for the belt. The Stadium has been a staple in the Muay Thai world since the late 80s and in fact, it is widely considered among the top four major stadiums in Thailand [2]
Siam Fight Mag's Serge Trefeu wrote an article exactly on this topic of major titles in Muay Thai: https://www.siamfightmag.com/en/muaythai-en/reports-en/others-reports-muaythai-en/488-the-omnoi-stadium
Secondly, major tournaments winners and Fighter of the Year award recipients should be eligible for their own article. The biggest tournaments in Muay Thai are: the annual Isuzu Tournament at Siam Omnoi Stadium, the annual Tiger Cement Tournament at Channel 7 Stadium, the CP Meiji Tournament under Suk Petchyindee, the Lumpinee Tournament at Lumpinee Stadium, and the Toyota Revo Tournament.
Lastly, Muay Thai should have its own section in this Notability page. Aside from it being a striking sport, Muay Thai have its own distinct ruleset from kickboxing. Namely, the prolonged clinch striking, striking off caught kicks, the use of elbows, throws, sweeps and trips, and more.
Thank you for reading and considering the suggestions made above.
PhanKS1505 ( talk) 01:37, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
References
I don't know much about cricket, but User:Reywas92 raised an issue today at the general Notability talk page about the "mass-production" of articles on cricket players. I took a look and found Anthony Hanley, a one-sentence stub created today about an athlete who played in one "first-class" match. Do others have thoughts on this? Is the standard for cricket players too lenient? Do we believe there is likely to be sufficient coverage to show that such a player would pass WP:GNG? Is this a problem? If so, how do we fix it? I am also pinging User:Lugnuts to the discussion, as he is the one who created the article. Feedback welcome. Cbl62 ( talk) 02:56, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
We should get rid of NCRIC (at least the current version, but perhaps completely if no better version can be made), as it allows way too many articles on people who don't meet the GNG. This has been discussed in the past, with examples, but nothing ever happens, and AfDs are pointless as people turn up to vote "meets NCRIC" without further sources. Fram ( talk) 10:46, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
Note. I have placed a note on the talk page of WP:CRIC to notify them of this discussion. wjemather please leave a message... 11:07, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
In general about this discussion: nobody can show if these cricketeers are notable or not, so what is needed is an investigation. For the sources we should look into the secondary sources of that era and that country. I'm not aware of South African newspapers accesible online, so we are unable to find the Anthony Hanley sources via internet I'm from the Netherlands and I don't know anything about cricket but I know where to look for Dutch secondary sources. When looking for a pre-internet Dutch cricketeer I find Chris van Schouwenburg (around 1979). When google-ing him, no good secondary sources could be found see here. So most of the people above will say: unnotable player. However, when digging into old Dutch newspapers many good sources can be found. Five examples from Dutch national newspapers to show that he will easily meet GNG 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. So to state Anthony Hanley is notable, we have to find old South African newspapers with cricket, to see what is written about him. However, I think we don't have access to those newspapers. What we can do, is to look into old newspapers searching for the native "first-class match" players, so see ~90% is meeting GNG. If so, we can state that for those countries we don't have the access to, it's likely they will meet GNG. SportsOlympic ( talk) 15:31, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
This is not a new problem; I remember the WP:CRIN wars from a few years ago, and just today in looking at Category:Orphaned articles from December 2012 I found many cricketers with one first-class appearance and no real sign of notability, such as Sean Parry, Michael Hardy, and Vernon Hill (cricketer, born 1978). (There are plenty of footballers as well.) I don't see any new ideas here to solve this, unfortunately. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 07:31, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
If it were "one competitive appearance in a fully professional competition with FC, LA or T20 status" it would be tighter. GNG is always there to add amateurs who don't meet this criteria - including the majority of the people playing T20I for very minor teams. The fully professional bit is, I think, a requirement of FOOTY from memory - one which draws a line substantially higher than CRIC does. But, you know, this has been discussed for years. There might be consensus for adding the word "competitive". Maybe. Not sure about "fully professional" though. But I'm not convinced anything will change. WP:CRIN - the extended version - is a disaster by the way; very little of it was discussed and much of it is the work of one person who's banned. Blue Square Thing ( talk) 17:38, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
..free access to the sum of all human knowledge.: But WP is WP:NOTEVERYTHING either.— Bagumba ( talk) 01:26, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
Note: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Christopher Martin (cricketer), where keepers argued that WP:CRIN was met, has been closed as "delete".— Bagumba ( talk) 01:09, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Arthur Norton, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Collan Nicholas, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lewis Newnham, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Craig Nelson (cricketer), and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Frederick Nel. Reywas92 Talk 04:47, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
I've been under the impression that our WP:YOUNGATH disqualifies routine coverage of a person from their youth sports days from ever being used for notability purposes. I've seen a couple AfD votes where some users have claimed WP:YOUNGATH no longer applies since the person is above the age of 18, so their prep sports coverage can count towards notability (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kezo Brown.) This doesn't make sense to me - for instance if you have a footballer who doesn't pass WP:NFOOTY and WP:GNG as an adult is marginal, but received significant coverage from the local paper as a youth athlete, that WP:SIGCOV may lead us to keep the article. Does WP:YOUNGATH exclude all qualifying youth sports coverage for notability purposes? (Obviously, some athletes are notable young, such as that baseball player who was on the cover of Sports Illustrated - these are not the subjects I care about with this question.) SportingFlyer T· C 22:33, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
That being said, a couple extra thoughts. First, I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the concept that heavy and detailed local coverage might satisfy the GNG if the subject is >18, but can't if the subject is <18. This curious notion certainly doesn't apply to other walks of life; coverage is coverage. Secondly, why is this SNG needed at all? What does it cover that the other NSPORTS SNGs don't? Pretty uniformly, they set forth the competitions that provide presumptive notability, and leave out the ones that don't. Not a single one of them confer presumptive notability to American high school sports. Ravenswing 16:10, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
Local sources must be independent of the subject, and must provide reports beyond routine game coverage.This is in agreement with the corresponding guidance for young athletes, which says that the need for non-routine coverage
excludes the majority of local coverage in both news sources and sports specific publications.This viewpoint has been reaffirmed repeatedly in discussions on this talk page. It's not that local coverage is completely barred (regardless of the age of the athlete), but it frequently is routine coverage, is not independent, or is written from a promotional perspective, which is common in sports journalism. isaacl ( talk) 22:26, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
I've rewritten the section to clarify the feedback above. The proposal is below. This is based on Cbl62's intepretation of extending this guideline to coaches and youth sports organisations - if this isn't agreeable, we can always remove that part.
Youth athletes
Youth athletes (including high school and secondary school athletes when an athlete participates on a team, or any athlete under the age of 18), youth coaches, and youth sports organisations are notable only if they have received, as individuals, substantial and prolonged coverage that is: (1) independent of the subject; and (2) clearly goes beyond WP:ROUTINE coverage. The first clause excludes all school papers and school websites that cover their sports teams and other teams they compete against. The second clause excludes the majority of local coverage in both news sources and sports specific publications. It especially excludes using game play summaries, statistical results, or routine interviews as sources to establish notability. For individuals, these sources cannot be used to demonstrate notability even if the article subject has graduated high school/secondary school or is now 18 or older.
Feedback is very welcome.
SportingFlyer
T·
C 21:42, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
Certain types of coverage are considered WP:ROUTINE and are not counted in determining whether an athlete or coach satisfies the WP:GNG standard. Examples of such WP:ROUTINE coverage include (i) listings in comprehensive databases (such as those published by Sports Reference and ESPN.com), (ii) statistical listings (such as a newspaper's listing of player batting averages); (iii) passing mentions in game coverage; and (iv) lists of transactions, including hirings, firings, releases, and injuries (examples here and here)."
This includes listings in database sources with low, wide-sweeping generic standards of inclusion, such as Sports Reference's college football and basketball databases.— Bagumba ( talk) 06:24, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
I've noticed that ABA League (Adriatic league) is not listed among WP:NBASKETBALL's list of leagues leading to presumed notability. I found that in practice, players from that league are widely assumed notable, see e.g. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Denis Agre or Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Martin Junaković. Plus, the league has regularly provided prospects for the NBA draft and some of the national teams from the area are good by European standards. It seems that ABA League should be included in the list. Or are there any strong objections I'm not seeing? Modussiccandi ( talk) 22:48, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I propose that WP:NFOOTY be amended as follows to require that players to have been in three competitive games instead of just one:
Players who have played, and managers who have managed, in any three competitive games between two teams from fully professional leagues will generally be regarded as notable.
rebuttable presumptionmeans "permanent unappealable exemption from WP:V and WP:GNG". There is no shortage AfDs where the nominator has clearly laid out a failed search for sources beyond database scrapes and gets shouted down by wikiproject enthusiasts coming in to go "speedy keep- meets WP:NBLERP". This proposal may be going off on a bit of a tangent but it's at least heading vaguely in the right direction. Reyk YO! 09:27, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
I would like to propose that the notability guidelines are improved. It is more notable to become an All-American in the NCAA division I than it is to just play one time in a professional league. I also think the list of leagues should be expanded to include those with millions of fans and high-profile players, such as Stephon Marbury and Tracy Mcgrady in the CBA (China). The leagues I believe are missing are ones RealGM.com cites as high-level professional ( Chinese Basketball Association, Liga Nacional de Básquet, and Baloncesto Superior Nacional. Each of the listed leagues have had more than twenty NBA players play in them in the last decade alone, they are the highest level in their respective regions, and each have a massive following. So if the other leagues are a distinction, they should be as well. Thanks for your consideration. Youngjtdyt ( talk) 17:45, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
Sorry about the broken hyperlink, and the has/had error *facepalm* Youngjtdyt ( talk) 17:47, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
@yosmiter Thanks for clearing that up. I couldn’t believe it wasn’t a thing yet haha but now I know why. As for the non-nba/lowest qualification: do you want me to tag non-nba players in those leagues that already have pages without meeting the 3 requirements? Youngjtdyt ( talk) 17:58, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
@Yosemiter Thanks for clearing that up. I couldn’t believe it wasn’t a thing yet haha but now I know why. As for the non-nba/lowest qualification: do you want me to tag non-nba players in those leagues that already have pages without meeting the 3 requirements? Youngjtdyt ( talk) 17:59, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
@ Yosemiter Thanks for clearing that up. I couldn’t believe it wasn’t a thing yet haha but now I know why. As for the non-nba/lowest qualification: do you want me to tag non-nba players in those leagues that already have pages without meeting the 3 requirements?
Sorry about the mishaps Youngjtdyt ( talk) 17:59, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
Gates played one game exactly and meets none of the other requirements. The same for Piñeiro. Is that sufficient? I will begin to search the other two leagues if so. Youngjtdyt ( talk) 19:47, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
Added a page break where I shouldn’t have. Apologies Youngjtdyt ( talk) 19:48, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
Gates played one game exactly and meets none of the other requirements. The same for Piñeiro. Is that sufficient? I will begin to search the other two leagues if so. Youngjtdyt ( talk) 19:50, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
Hello, I am going to attempt to clean up this thread and consolidate my position in this post. So far it has been determined that to qualify for an addition to the exiting notability guideline, a list of players who achieved such status in their own right and also have played minimally in the leagues I advocated would be required. I have composed a list; it is not complete but I do feel the volume is sufficient to make a case for one of the leagues, the Baloncesto Superior Nacional. The other two leagues (CBA, LNB) don’t seem to meet the requirements at this time, or at least to my research. They have 2 and 1 players only, respectively.
The list: (1 game) Eniel Polynice , Víctor Ávila , Raphiael Putney , Darius Rice , Isaiah Wilkerson , Kendall Williams , Yancy Gates , Isaiah Piñeiro , Karim Malpica, Kitwana Rhymer, Phil Jones
(2 games) Brian Butch , Ian Young (3 games) Martín Osimani
In summation, this is a list of 14 players who have been deemed notable and have not played in the NBA or any of the accepted leagues, have not been drafted in the first or second round of the NBA, and have not led the league in a major statistical category in the NBA G League or Continental Basketball Association.
@ Yosemiter: @ Nigej: @ Bagumba: Youngjtdyt ( talk) 01:29, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
Is there a way we can broaden the notability for women’s leagues to include more female athletes? It appears to me that while men garner more media attention, an encyclopedia would be found wanting if it used that standard while ignoring the obvious imbalance that exists. An example would be the NWHL an equivalent to the NHL. The NWHL is broadcasted on ESPN 3 and ABC, the athletes are professional and it is the highest level in the country. I wouldn’t stop at hockey either, just an example. I look forward to hearing some ideas on this, thanks! Youngjtdyt ( talk) 04:50, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
Hi guys, following the start of a discussion on the rugby union WikiProject, I propose that Georgia, Namibia and Uruguay should be added to the list of 'High Performance Unions' as listed by WP:NRU at Wikipedia:WikiProject Rugby union/Notability criteria. World Rugby currently lists 20 sides (17 of which are listed at WP:NRU along with Georgia, Namibia and Uruguay) as 'High Performance' as stated on page 8 of this document [7] and 5 emerging nations (I believe these should not be added at this time). The British & Irish Lions are not included but should also be kept on the WP:NRU list. I believe this document supersedes the one currently listed on the WP:NRU notability criteria as it is more up to date and because of the three sides recent improvements and increase in fixtures against other high performance unions. Rugbyfan22 ( talk) 13:35, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
As there's been no objections to the proposal and it's been up over a week. I'm going to go ahead and implement these changes per WP:BOLD. If anybody has any objections please contact here or on the rugby union WikiProject. Rugbyfan22 ( talk) 14:04, 29 January 2021 (UTC)