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When somebody says I am a fascist or a bolshevik collaborateur somewhere on internet, so OK, it is Off-Wiki. If somebody does it not on my national wiki, but on another one or say on the pages of Meta – is it OFF or not? In particular, somebody has been distributing lies about me in a national wiki, it has been solved on Request on Comments there, now he is continuing to say so on Meta. Normally, i would assume, Meta is not Off, but there were some notices I have seen somewhere saying that it could be. Can somebody help and define it? Thx, -jkb- 14:16, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
The chapter citet here by User:jossi, especially then If you have been warned or blocked for personal attacks, engaging in the same behavior elsewhere violates the positive community spirit all Wikipedians should foster and may demonstrate bad faith, was the reaseon for my questioning here. Elsewhere means here outside off Wikipedia even. But it is for somebody who has to judge – may be – a little difference or it is easier if e.g. Meta is not Off but Inside. -jkb- 18:14, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, Dmcdevit, your answer make me not very happy, more over, as it comes from somebody who is in the arbcom here. This is an essential point, not only concerning "my language wiki" and meta, but all projects. (Beside the fact, that there is no such page on meta). If you think that the english arbcom is or will be solving problems like the correct spelling etc., so you are not right. Cases, like I noted above, are very often all over the wiki. And as the en.wiki has the most pages on the wiki policy, so it is right to discuss it here, too. More over, if there is somebody from a small wiki who asks here for help, so it is not very helpfull to say search and discuss it elsewhere. Sorry. And my question was - not only but also - is e.g. the en.wiki for me off or not??? -jkb- 11:52, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Well IMHO an off-wiki personal attack is a clear insult or threat given by one user to another user, but not through teh usual venues (user talk, vandalism of a page, etc.) See my talk page for a complaint by one User:Rodgerbales that an anon in the 67.*.*.* range has attacked him with this site. -- M1ss1ontomars2k4 00:41, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
There was a discussion at Wikipedia talk:No personal attacks/Extension. Result was: no consensus. That's why I revert. Please don't change the policy without achieving consensus. -- V. Z. 14:52, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I would like to add that 75 % is absolute minimum. And policy should not be change after "consensus" of less than a dozen people. -- V. Z. 15:53, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to say I disagree with the means how discussion have been "closed" and its results "counted". Disscussions should not be reduced to mere poll by assigning pro/con values to people, and saying "57%". Some of those opposing raised some objections. Some objections were answered. IMO the result of the discussion was in favour of the proposal. What should probably have been done was to draw more attantion to the topic... Wikipedia had become so overwhelming that such things should be "advertised" in RC etc. Let's say 25 particiapting people would be better in case of such a basic policy as NPA.
IMO some background should be explained. It seems this issue slipped to en: from cs: wiki.
One editor translated this addition of NPA and included it to cs: NPA recommendation (until now, it was uncontested on cs: - probably with the exception of Tompecina, who is temporarily blocked for NPA violation, and V. Z., who is restriced to edit only pages of ongoing Arbitration - so they were unable to raise the objections on cs:). Today, Tompecina brought the issue to meta:Requests for comments/Cswiki issues#Request for action: New undemocratic rule on cs:wiki. There, I included a short note explainig the origin of the amendment was on en: .
I'd also like to ask anybody coming here because of cs: conflicts to stay calm and on topic. -- Wikimol 17:01, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Request removal pending discussion - I again request that this section be removed for the following reasons:
Wikipedia:No personal attacks/Extension ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Disclaimer: Results of this poll should not be used as a singular justification for article changes. Strom 20:41, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I would like to take a straw poll of current opinion re the recently-added 'Off-wiki personal attacks' section. We are all aware of the inherent danger of polling and failing to reach consensus, but as Polls_are_evil tells us, "Polls can be useful for a quick gauge of opinion". Furthermore, this entire policy is quite controversial and was implemented without true consensus, so I think it's fair to recognize that we may not all come together on this one, despite all of our best efforts.
Summary of poll as of 01:22, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Stephen B Streater 17:46, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
amended by
Wikimol
18:38, 23 May 2006 (UTC) - counting
RJII only once
amended by
Malber (
talk •
contribs)
19:41, 23 May 2006 (UTC) see below
previous change undone by
Wikimol
20:27, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Added percentages like the one for the first week (and updated count to current time) --
Col. Hauler
22:43, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Updated again, fixed numbering issue from before. --
Kchase02 (
T)
08:26, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
OK made it clearer that the remove totals might contain people who expect to vote to keep after the discussion.
Stephen B Streater
09:41, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Keep (39%)
Remove (61%)
In all, 39% are in favor of keeping this policy and 61% would like to effectively remove the section in its current form (including those in favor of removing if the amendment is not possible, since it was not accepted by many folks).
If you take nothing else from these results, please keep in mind that neither "side" is an overwhelming majority, so no one can pretend they represent an "obviously correct" position; both positions have very clearly stated their positions in the discussion; no one has yet invoked moral authority; we're on the path to progress. Specifically, both sides seem to agree that the definition of "off-wiki" could use clarification.
Given the level of interest in the poll and lack of a large majority, we need to recognize that this is going to be controversial for some time, with no quick resolution. Strom 20:04, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
The current argument and a series of revert wars has been ongoing for several weeks and spans a variety of headings in this Talk page. Before you vote, please inform yourself by reading all of the following
Description: You think we should basically keep the policy as-is, perhaps with minor edits. Specifically, you don't think it should be removed or significantly altered.
"Description get rid of the off-wiki attack policy entirely Please leave this where it is, in it's own category, it doesn't fit in any of the others
Description: You think the policy should be amended to only ban the creation of links on Wikipedia to non-Wikipedia sites (forums, personal web pages, etc.) with personal attacks on them. That is, as long as there's no link from Wikipedia to the personal attack, it's not in violation of the policy. You may also believe that further discussion for expansion is fine, but that the current far-reaching policy is not acceptable for inclusion in the policy at this time, given the lack of support. If the policy is not amended, you want it removed while discussion continues.
Description: You think that the policy is controversial enough that it should be removed form the official policy page while it is debated on these Talk pages, perhaps because you feel that full consensus was not originally reached when it was added or because it is not currently "widely accepted among editors" as an official policy states it should be. You may also think the above compromise is too invasive.
Back to the roots: I have the feeling that some ones still don’t understand what we are talking about here. There is somebody, who calls some of you fascists on his blog, see here on en.wiki. This list with 21 names is still there – see here (Czech comment). See also here - another comment in English there. There are several links to this blog on the whole wiki, see e.g. here or here. -jkb- 09:20, 10 May 2006 (UTC).
Prometheuspan 17:48, 10 May 2006 (UTC) Actually, if we use logic, an assertion of fascism grounded in fact isn't an attack, its an observation. I have recently been spammed in my talk for alleged NPA. The beautiful thing about being me is that even the most egregrious of my "attacks" can be shown to be based wholly on demonstrable fact. Should the issue come up in some sort of real way, other than obvious pov warriors playing favorites, I could show that my statements are cold rational evaluations based in fact. Thats the beauty of formal logic. It works. It works so well that it solves all of the problems people anticipate, and ones even that they don't. Prometheuspan 17:48, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
As I have said, about eighteen times now probably, the policy of NPA on Wikipedia is fine. I'm not sure about it not being bound by the First Amendment, but that is moot; a suppression of speech on here is not what is being discussed, Will. The point is that Wikipedia seeks to control for, and punish what is said outside of Wikipedia where it has no right to. -- Knucmo2 17:57, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
This quite interesting argument. In fact it works the opiste way. Now, if you are victim by off-wiki defamamtion by "fellow wikipedian", you have to behave nicely to him on Wikipedia. And if you take lagal action agianst him, you will be blocked. This way Wikipedia prevens you to defent yourself, if you want to edit. Wouldnt't it make make more sense to prevent the offender from editing? -- Wikimol 07:37, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
I find it extremely interesting that someone would describe the atmosphere here as "collegial". My experience has been quite different. — goethean ॐ 22:09, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
That is not the argument. Wikipedia wishes to police the web to punish free speech and expression when they interfere with the purpose of building an encyclopedia. I am perfectly aware that free speech is suppressed on here, and that is acceptable in my book, as I am more bothered with building an encyclopedia. Wikipedia is not the government, it does not have the right to suppress free speech outside of its bounds. -- Knucmo2 20:02, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
This doesn't decide rules outside WP. Everybody is free to do anything outside WP. The policy only states if you want to do certain things, you should not edit Wikipedia. Editing Wikipedia is no consitutional right! We have such policies allready - e.g. if you take a legal action, you should top editing, etc. -- Wikimol 07:37, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Am I missing something here? If someone links to a personal attack from a Wikipedia talk page with the comment 'this describes you' or something to that effect, then they are making a personal attack on a Wikipedia page (by posting the link). We don't need this new proposal to cover things like that; it would fall under the old policy. -- Aquillion 07:15, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I believe that the following should be added to the list of examples, and the related section on linked materials moved out of the contested extension:
As I read it, as long as they key word 'incorporates' is left in, this should follow directly from existing (non-disputed) policy, and shouldn't be clouded by the above discussions... If someone creates (or stumbles across) a website called 'Aquillion is a jerk' and then incorporates that attack into discussions on Wikipedia by linking to it, then they are effectively making that personal attack against me on Wikipedia itself. Note that I am not voting for amending the policy to cover linked personal attacks; I think that, in the context described, it always has. -- Aquillion 07:31, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't the policy include personal attacks by voice? Such as on the telephone? Or even in person? RJII 00:40, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Links to off-site attacks are much more insidious than internal WP ones. Firstly, people attacked are less likely to know about them, so less likely to be able to respond effectively. Secondly, the links can be changed without trace leaving no proof of the deed. So I think that linking to off site attacks is worst, then internal WP attacks (where people can be called to account), then offsite attacks (which are just bad form and nothing to do with WP). Stephen B Streater 21:04, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
I would be VERY careful about a policy to this end. Simply put, it's a realm that's too hard to control, and leads to problems. I can imagine a message board thread that consists of both valid points and personal attacks that might be worth linking to for the valid and important points. As is the usual manner with such things, I think that additional rules only add additional opportunities for confusion. Phil Sandifer 22:14, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
My question is, why should I be nice? The thing here says "Be nice", etc. yet does not say why. Not a single person here has ever been nice to me. They always delete my edits, even if they are accurate, like on the Ballard High School (Louisville) article. The people here always bitch at me and never at anyone else. No one has been nice. Ever. So why should I be nice? -Alex, 74.133.188.197 04:26, 13 May 2006 (UTC).
Any edit by a guy named "alex" are mine. See, I don't just look at thier "IP address", whatever the hell that is. I am not a number. I am a human being. -Alex, 74.133.188.197 04:18, 14 May 2006 (UTC).
"No personal attacks" does not mean "be nice" in the sense of letting people make this a worse encyclopedia. Admins here are fire-breathing dragons eagerly attacking and destroying those who would make this a worse encyclopedia. WAS 4.250 16:45, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone have any suggestion on how to handle false accusation of personal attack?-- Jusjih 16:51, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I think what is considered "a personal attack" is utterly arbitrary. I have no good solution unless it is AGF. Every "Oh, you attacked me" could be met by "No, I didn't; AGF." Maybe all personal attacks should be automatically void unless some third party verifies; and upon a third party verifying the "attacking" party is allowed to rephrase because maybe an attack wasn't what was meant. In particular, I find SlimVirgin sometimes finds attacks where none was meant; and I sometimes find humor (in others comments) where it becomes clear later an attack was meant. WAS 4.250 22:23, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Time and time again, i find myself appalled at the ignorance around here. If you are accused of making an attack, review the relevant materials of what logically constitutes and attack, and what doesn't
and learn the dif between an attack and a statement of fact consequently detrimental to somebody elses position. Not that Logic currently matters on Wikipedia, but the question of whether or not you are being attacked or whether or not you are attacking somebody is a factual question determined by really very simple laws of Logic.
Prometheuspan
21:57, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I've restored the off-wiki attack section, as I'm not aware that it's seriously disputed. SlimVirgin (talk) 13:01, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
I wonder if there should be something which mentions to the effect that there is some intrinsic ambiguity involved with this. For example, who is to qualify whether something constitutes an attack or not, and what are the consequences of this qualification? However, I think that it would not be for the Wiki to decide what this is. Just a passing thought. -- HappyCamper 13:11, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
The way people enforce good behaviour is through peer pressure. If lots of people are telling someone their behaviour is inappropriate, they will realise this. If one person tells them rudely this is much less likely to be ineffective. This also applies to NPA in general, including off-wiki NPA. Every time someone is told they are losing respect and status with their personal attack, they will think again. Wikipedia is not a democracy, but enforcement of behavioural norms by editors is much more effective than adding more work to the admin police load. Stephen B Streater 06:20, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
It's wrong to say that it is "bypassing" policy if you make anything that could be considered a personal attack on someone who uses Wikipedia outside of Wikipedia, as the policy does not apply to other websites than Wikipedia at the moment.
I see what you mean, but if you read the Extension carefully, it says that it would apply to any breaking of the policy of "no personal attacks" on "online forums and personal websites". Of course anything that could be considered a "personal attack" could be considered "bypassing".
It says in essence, that saying anything that could be considered offensive (that would break the Wikipedia No Personal Attacks policy) on any website on the internet would be considered the same as breaking the policy on Wikipedia, allowing users to be banned if they say anything bad about users of Wikipedia on any other site. The closest legal equivalent is a gagging clause (as in the type used by companies in job contracts to make it possible to take legal action for breach of contract if they say anything that could be considered derogatory about the company or reveal negative things about the company, not the court order). -- Col. Hauler 17:45, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I've edited the heading with the following compromise text:
I believe this is the essense of the dispute. I would hope that both sides discontinue edit warring on this minor wording issue, and get back to discussing the extension itself so consensus is reached. Thank you. -- Malber ( talk • contribs) 18:08, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm uninvolved in recent edits to this page, but policy pages are no place for revert battles. Will revist this protection in a few days. — xaosflux Talk 23:23, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Recently, I made some minor stylistic edits to the Dodge Dart article, and one of the main editors apparently didn't like the edits a lot, and then sent me a message saying my edits were "egotistical" and "immature", traits that I'm known for (at least how I see it). I apologized for my edits and politely defended myself, but then he kept claiming I showed the aforementioned traits in my edits, and now he refuses to talk about it. What do I do in this case? -- ApolloBoy 05:54, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
As a point of fact, whether true or not, calling you immature and egotistical is two ad hominems. YES, you are being attacked. Prometheuspan 21:53, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
As I look now, there are 27 for keep, 27 for strong throw out and almost as many for something else. Realistically, it looks like we will not achieve consensus on either of the two main camps. So I propose we discuss alternative proposals, such as:
Stephen B Streater 09:08, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I'd support any variant that made it clear that off-wiki attacks are not a good thing. I'd also support any variant that went further, that they may influence how one is perceived and treated here, and rightly so. As I have mentioned, I have seen off site attacks and plotting destroy or damage other communities... + + Lar: t/ c 17:30, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Due to recent events of an off-wiki site being used to harass and intimidate two admins, one of which has decided to leave the wiki, I am forced to reconsider my position. I would support any extension that gives admins the power to block and/or extend the block of anyone associated with making threats on an off-wiki site including the people responsible for administrating and monitoring said web site. I will change my vote to support the added extension. -- Malber ( talk • contribs) 17:43, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I see some nice people are voting keep. But this won't make nasty people nice. The man you refer to above, Daniel Brandt, has been banned from Wikipedia. So banning people like him from WP won't stop people like him. Stephen B Streater 19:03, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
To add this text to the policy, as a compromise solution to address the concerns raised about off-wiki personal attacks. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 20:21, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia acknowledges that it is a bad idea to moderate free speech. Is that really why we're having this debate? According to WP:NOT, Wikipedia is not a forum for unregulated free speech, and we regularly censor things such as personal attacks. The issue here, it seems to me, is not that to restrict off-wiki personal attacks would be unacceptable from the standpoint of freedom of speech; clearly it is an acceptable limitation of freedom of speech. Rather the issue here is jurisdiction, or at least that's my reaction. - lethe talk + 01:38, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
To all users voting "oppose": Please note that this new wording is already the modus operandi for this type of behavior. It is not a new addition, just the verbalization of existing application of policy. Off-wiki attacks have influenced actions taken for other violations of policy, in evaluating bad faith by an editor and as evidence in ArbCom decisions. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 20:19, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
These two phrases mean something different. Which one does Wikipedia actually want to say? TharkunColl 23:18, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
The opposite is true. Or at least, that's how an English speaker would say it. TharkunColl 23:26, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
A request was made on WikiEN-l to extend the off-wiki PA section to include wording specific to harrasment, such as recent situations in which people have contacted editor's employers/bosses to "report" editors activities with the intended purpose of harassment. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 19:15, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
How should I handle a situation? I have a problem with a user who started out angry, and got worse. He began hitting my talk pages two, three or more times, apparently so upset he couldn't post a clear thought. he had been posting a commercial link, and multiple editors, including myself, had reverted out his edit adding his site as an external link. He demanded that I explain my edit. I asked him to take it to the talk page of the article ( Rush (band) ), where there was already a thread about his edits. There was also a thread on HIS talk page about the situation. He had chosen to disregard muliple assisting posts, and instead harrass me. I told him his anger was a bad idea, and referred hiim to those pages and the wiki policies. He kept coming at me. Eventually, I told him he was harrassing me, and should go cool off. He kept going.He has ignored multiple requests that he leave me alone. He is confrontational with other editors. I am thoroughly opposed to dealing with this situation any more. He has posted "apology" after "apology" in which he calls me an idiot for not understanding that he's really such a great guy, and demanding that I answer him on my talk pages, instead of dealing with it on the article talk page. Please give me some suggestions for getting him to go away, or get administrative backup to get him away. He's the first editor on Wikipedia to actually make me feel creeped out. ThuranX 03:30, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
See Wikipedia_talk:Refactoring_talk_pages#Refactoring rude comments. Armedblowfish ( talk| contribs) 02:24, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
The RFC resolved the situation. The proposal as currently existing is wide and vague, however this provides a precedent indicating one specific use of an off-wiki website relating to activity in WP, which was agreed by the (fraction of the) community not to be acceptable. Are there other actual precedents of specific classes or types of attack or activity whcih have been resolved or discussed through the WP dispute resolution processes? Midgley 22:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I know of a case where a user has been banned by repeatedly and flagrantly violating wikipedia policy, but still allowed to make comments on talk pages. This user has been those a forum for baiting editors and accusing them of personal attacks. I think banned users should NOT have the opportunity to harass and falsely accuse productive editors. I would like to see the NPA policy modified to not accept such complaints from banned users for a lengthy period of time after they have been banned. The one case I am familiar with has done little to reform and I do not appreciate being harassed as an editor on wikipedia.-- Fahrenheit451 01:30, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I was going to place a NPA tag on a users page but wanted to make sure its appropriate, the user has been calling me a sockpuppet even though the RFCU had stated I was not, then a second one that I requested has proven once again that I am not. They continue to do this asserting that the user they are accusing me of simply switched ISP's. They have even gone on to my RfC and accused me of the following maintaining their accusation in the face of 2 RFCU's. I would like to know if I can place NPA tags over this and if I can get an admin to look at my RfC as its being flooded with these accusations by two users. -- zero faults |sockpuppets| 10:42, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
The criteria of personal attack should be the same as for Slander and libel, i.e., its basis must be false to qualify as either. ... IMHO ( Talk) 03:18, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Some time ago, a lengthy and heated debate took place that I ws a part of. I concisly laid out ALL the pertinent facts of the matter -- in fact one person called it "an essay." The main administrator countered with an open and outright lie. He made a claim that would only have been true if I had not posted anything at all in the debate. What do you do then? What am I supposed to say when someone is lying? On admin told me I should say nothing at all. That would be tantamount to knuckling under to a lie. -- Jason Palpatine 19:34, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
I've noticed that "troll" is a personal attack used constantly on wikipedia. I believe this should stop. What's worse, scroll through through here http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Special%3ALog&type=block&user=&page= and you'll see troll as a personal attack is used constantly even in bannings. Troll on wikipedia is a new version of calling someone a "pedophile". I believe this needs to stop. No matter who says it, they should get warnings and bans for using that as an attack. Even if someone does fit the definition of trolling, we should use a term to describe them that is not a personal attack. It's better to say what they did and saying "trolling" is just being sneaky about it (see Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words). Hardvice 08:03, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
What's next? Will it be considered a personal attack to post {{ test3}} of {{ blatantvandal}} on the talk page of someone who blanks pages? After all, some might think that being called a "vandal" is offensive. As stated above, protesting in good faith about someone's behavior on Wikipedia is fair comment. (That said, such conversations are best taken to user talk pages, so that article talk pages can be about the article and not about the article's editors). And the comparison between trolls and pedophiles is simply outrageous. -- EngineerScotty 21:46, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I want to add that calling someone a troll is a way of saying, "your opinion does not matter, I am calling it trolling when it is not to claim that no matter how passionately you feel, your opinions and feelings make no difference to me." It's a way of saying, "you suck." It is used all over the internet and I've found it used by people who even fit the definition of a troll-oddly hypocritical (no offense to anyone with a user name similar to that word, I mean the entire internet).
Hardvice
23:00, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Given the extent of the (currently unresolved) debate here, I've added the 'disputed policy' template to the offwiki section. If anyone has any strong objections, feel free to remove it. Cynical 20:52, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
What are we supposed to do if we see someone making a personal attack? Ask them not to? Where? on the talk page or their user page? Are their appropriate templates for such a message? -- Chris Griswold 05:25, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
“ | There are certain Wikipedia users who are unpopular, perhaps because of foolish or boorish behavior in the past. Such users may have been subject to disciplinary actions by the Arbitration Committee. It is only human to imagine that such users might be fair game for personal attacks. This notion is misguided; people make mistakes, often learn from them and change their ways. The NPA rule applies to all users irrespective of their past history or how others regard them. | ” |
This paragraph is most definitely written in an anti-human POV, probably by some stinking Martian filth. By castigating all humans as monkeys who thrive on the misfortune of others, whoever wrote this exhibits a clear anti-human bias. This specieist crap is unsourced, unverified and unsupported by any reliable independent source. It needs to be removed ASAP. -- Миборо в ский 19:58, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
User:Buzawz is really started to annoy/infuriate me. He's made several personal attacks on me, even after he was blocked, for it. (The personal attacks can be found here and here.) He keeps saying that using the sandbox is not vandalism, but he is adding obscenities to it, which is why I warned him. If he does it one more time (which he probably will) I will probably explode. What should I do? -- TheGreatLlama ( speak to the Llama!) 01:27, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Yet again DeeCeeVoice has illustrated her endless desire to agitate others over trivialities. This time I would not tolerate it. She wants to feel like the victor and I will not have it. So as you can see on both our talk pages the issue escalated as far as I think it can go without causing a legal issue. So feel free to ban me and her if that is what you feel is necessary. For me, i am tired of the Black People article being locked and since it won't be unlocked until I dissappear here is an excellent chance to resolve that issue. As far as DeeCeeVoice goes, she can feel free to cut all the atoms and bones she wants, but let her know that veiled threats are still threats, conditional threats are still threats. I legally made sure that I myself am not implicated as I clearly explained that in her talk page. I personally request action to be taken against her (and feel free to extend it to myself as well, but do not be biased, reserving action solely upon me please). -- Zaphnathpaaneah 05:52, 19 August 2006 (UTC) -- Zaphnathpaaneah 05:52, 19 August 2006 (UTC) -- Zaphnathpaaneah 05:52, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
See also Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement/User:Deeceevoice [4] CoYep 12:55, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
This page needs to note exceptions in which personal attacks are allowed and encouraged. For example, when users added references to articles, these users are " dictator[s] of Wikipedia." It's also important to note that when users complain about personal attacks, or ask for them to be removed, we should accuse them of sockpuppetry and indefinitely block them. I'm sure we can all agree on this. freestylefrappe 17:30, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
In the section Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks#Remedies, the text suggests at first that someone who is attacked follow the dispute resolution process, and later that they post to WP:PAIN. Aren't these two different things? WP:PAIN doesn't seem to be linked from WP:DR. From the other posts on this talk page, it looks like PAIN, not DR, is the way to go. Let me know if I'm not reading things right. -- Allen 01:10, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Is this a personal attack? Per cfd notice board do not delete categories until voting is done. Then do what you like!!What's with the hate!!Why all this DC Comics tv series in the deletion categories crap. Brian Boru is awesome 22:43, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
I have a suggestion. Why not mention a place where to file reports in the intro? Other wiki-rules have it. My suggestion is something like "Personal attacks may be reported [WP:PAIN|here]". How 'bout it? -- PaxEquilibrium 19:12, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Okay. My user page has been vandalized oh... 20 times or so in the last few days by people (or just one person under IP addresses which seem to be pointing to a school of some sort) who claim I am part of a chinese government conspiracy. Could someone please help me deal with this issue? Colipon+( T) 00:27, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
If somebody write an offensive remark against a racial group/country/religion/gender/etc, does it belong to personal attack? If no, where should I report it? Nielswik 13:06, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
I have a question regarding WP:NPA's scope - I was informed recently that only attacks on editors constitute a violation. But what if a demeaning reference to women as "virgins" and senior citizens as "old-age pensioners" is posted on a user talk page [5]? Its an editor's idea of a sick joke. But there are many women and old people who contribute to Wikipedia and (will) find those "general" statements quite insulting. While an administrator informed me that such statements are not violative of WP:NPA [6], I'd like to have more opinions. Rama's arrow 18:34, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Re: Using someone's affiliations as a means of dismissing or discrediting their views — regardless of whether said affiliations are mainstream or extreme.
It seems like there is an "elephant in the room"--which everyone sees, but no one can mention. Certain editors will go around in groups (some people call them "cabals") and actively push their own narrow POV.
It is the worst when these groups of people put articles up for deletion. For example, certain editors will attempt to squelch 9/11 consipracy theories by putting these articles up for deletion--there voting record is clear--if an article is against their narrow POV, no matter how well written it is, it will be put up for deletion, and this little group will vote against it. (For the record, I do not believe in any 9/11 conspiracy theories)
It is clear that certain editors are doing it because they are biased and slanted, but no wikieditor can actually bring this up. When another wikieditor brings it up, people scream WP:NPA.
Why is the word (insert title here) cabal so off limits? Why when anyone brings up the subject, they are heckled off the talk page?
Does bringing up someones past edit history, (i.e. they always vote, consistently for a certain page to be deleted) considered a personal attack? I support all of wikipedias rules, including WP:NPA, but some editors seem to use wikipolicy as an excuse to abuse the system. RWV 04:48, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
When somebody says I am a fascist or a bolshevik collaborateur somewhere on internet, so OK, it is Off-Wiki. If somebody does it not on my national wiki, but on another one or say on the pages of Meta – is it OFF or not? In particular, somebody has been distributing lies about me in a national wiki, it has been solved on Request on Comments there, now he is continuing to say so on Meta. Normally, i would assume, Meta is not Off, but there were some notices I have seen somewhere saying that it could be. Can somebody help and define it? Thx, -jkb- 14:16, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
The chapter citet here by User:jossi, especially then If you have been warned or blocked for personal attacks, engaging in the same behavior elsewhere violates the positive community spirit all Wikipedians should foster and may demonstrate bad faith, was the reaseon for my questioning here. Elsewhere means here outside off Wikipedia even. But it is for somebody who has to judge – may be – a little difference or it is easier if e.g. Meta is not Off but Inside. -jkb- 18:14, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, Dmcdevit, your answer make me not very happy, more over, as it comes from somebody who is in the arbcom here. This is an essential point, not only concerning "my language wiki" and meta, but all projects. (Beside the fact, that there is no such page on meta). If you think that the english arbcom is or will be solving problems like the correct spelling etc., so you are not right. Cases, like I noted above, are very often all over the wiki. And as the en.wiki has the most pages on the wiki policy, so it is right to discuss it here, too. More over, if there is somebody from a small wiki who asks here for help, so it is not very helpfull to say search and discuss it elsewhere. Sorry. And my question was - not only but also - is e.g. the en.wiki for me off or not??? -jkb- 11:52, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Well IMHO an off-wiki personal attack is a clear insult or threat given by one user to another user, but not through teh usual venues (user talk, vandalism of a page, etc.) See my talk page for a complaint by one User:Rodgerbales that an anon in the 67.*.*.* range has attacked him with this site. -- M1ss1ontomars2k4 00:41, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
There was a discussion at Wikipedia talk:No personal attacks/Extension. Result was: no consensus. That's why I revert. Please don't change the policy without achieving consensus. -- V. Z. 14:52, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I would like to add that 75 % is absolute minimum. And policy should not be change after "consensus" of less than a dozen people. -- V. Z. 15:53, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to say I disagree with the means how discussion have been "closed" and its results "counted". Disscussions should not be reduced to mere poll by assigning pro/con values to people, and saying "57%". Some of those opposing raised some objections. Some objections were answered. IMO the result of the discussion was in favour of the proposal. What should probably have been done was to draw more attantion to the topic... Wikipedia had become so overwhelming that such things should be "advertised" in RC etc. Let's say 25 particiapting people would be better in case of such a basic policy as NPA.
IMO some background should be explained. It seems this issue slipped to en: from cs: wiki.
One editor translated this addition of NPA and included it to cs: NPA recommendation (until now, it was uncontested on cs: - probably with the exception of Tompecina, who is temporarily blocked for NPA violation, and V. Z., who is restriced to edit only pages of ongoing Arbitration - so they were unable to raise the objections on cs:). Today, Tompecina brought the issue to meta:Requests for comments/Cswiki issues#Request for action: New undemocratic rule on cs:wiki. There, I included a short note explainig the origin of the amendment was on en: .
I'd also like to ask anybody coming here because of cs: conflicts to stay calm and on topic. -- Wikimol 17:01, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Request removal pending discussion - I again request that this section be removed for the following reasons:
Wikipedia:No personal attacks/Extension ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Disclaimer: Results of this poll should not be used as a singular justification for article changes. Strom 20:41, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I would like to take a straw poll of current opinion re the recently-added 'Off-wiki personal attacks' section. We are all aware of the inherent danger of polling and failing to reach consensus, but as Polls_are_evil tells us, "Polls can be useful for a quick gauge of opinion". Furthermore, this entire policy is quite controversial and was implemented without true consensus, so I think it's fair to recognize that we may not all come together on this one, despite all of our best efforts.
Summary of poll as of 01:22, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Stephen B Streater 17:46, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
amended by
Wikimol
18:38, 23 May 2006 (UTC) - counting
RJII only once
amended by
Malber (
talk •
contribs)
19:41, 23 May 2006 (UTC) see below
previous change undone by
Wikimol
20:27, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Added percentages like the one for the first week (and updated count to current time) --
Col. Hauler
22:43, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Updated again, fixed numbering issue from before. --
Kchase02 (
T)
08:26, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
OK made it clearer that the remove totals might contain people who expect to vote to keep after the discussion.
Stephen B Streater
09:41, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Keep (39%)
Remove (61%)
In all, 39% are in favor of keeping this policy and 61% would like to effectively remove the section in its current form (including those in favor of removing if the amendment is not possible, since it was not accepted by many folks).
If you take nothing else from these results, please keep in mind that neither "side" is an overwhelming majority, so no one can pretend they represent an "obviously correct" position; both positions have very clearly stated their positions in the discussion; no one has yet invoked moral authority; we're on the path to progress. Specifically, both sides seem to agree that the definition of "off-wiki" could use clarification.
Given the level of interest in the poll and lack of a large majority, we need to recognize that this is going to be controversial for some time, with no quick resolution. Strom 20:04, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
The current argument and a series of revert wars has been ongoing for several weeks and spans a variety of headings in this Talk page. Before you vote, please inform yourself by reading all of the following
Description: You think we should basically keep the policy as-is, perhaps with minor edits. Specifically, you don't think it should be removed or significantly altered.
"Description get rid of the off-wiki attack policy entirely Please leave this where it is, in it's own category, it doesn't fit in any of the others
Description: You think the policy should be amended to only ban the creation of links on Wikipedia to non-Wikipedia sites (forums, personal web pages, etc.) with personal attacks on them. That is, as long as there's no link from Wikipedia to the personal attack, it's not in violation of the policy. You may also believe that further discussion for expansion is fine, but that the current far-reaching policy is not acceptable for inclusion in the policy at this time, given the lack of support. If the policy is not amended, you want it removed while discussion continues.
Description: You think that the policy is controversial enough that it should be removed form the official policy page while it is debated on these Talk pages, perhaps because you feel that full consensus was not originally reached when it was added or because it is not currently "widely accepted among editors" as an official policy states it should be. You may also think the above compromise is too invasive.
Back to the roots: I have the feeling that some ones still don’t understand what we are talking about here. There is somebody, who calls some of you fascists on his blog, see here on en.wiki. This list with 21 names is still there – see here (Czech comment). See also here - another comment in English there. There are several links to this blog on the whole wiki, see e.g. here or here. -jkb- 09:20, 10 May 2006 (UTC).
Prometheuspan 17:48, 10 May 2006 (UTC) Actually, if we use logic, an assertion of fascism grounded in fact isn't an attack, its an observation. I have recently been spammed in my talk for alleged NPA. The beautiful thing about being me is that even the most egregrious of my "attacks" can be shown to be based wholly on demonstrable fact. Should the issue come up in some sort of real way, other than obvious pov warriors playing favorites, I could show that my statements are cold rational evaluations based in fact. Thats the beauty of formal logic. It works. It works so well that it solves all of the problems people anticipate, and ones even that they don't. Prometheuspan 17:48, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
As I have said, about eighteen times now probably, the policy of NPA on Wikipedia is fine. I'm not sure about it not being bound by the First Amendment, but that is moot; a suppression of speech on here is not what is being discussed, Will. The point is that Wikipedia seeks to control for, and punish what is said outside of Wikipedia where it has no right to. -- Knucmo2 17:57, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
This quite interesting argument. In fact it works the opiste way. Now, if you are victim by off-wiki defamamtion by "fellow wikipedian", you have to behave nicely to him on Wikipedia. And if you take lagal action agianst him, you will be blocked. This way Wikipedia prevens you to defent yourself, if you want to edit. Wouldnt't it make make more sense to prevent the offender from editing? -- Wikimol 07:37, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
I find it extremely interesting that someone would describe the atmosphere here as "collegial". My experience has been quite different. — goethean ॐ 22:09, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
That is not the argument. Wikipedia wishes to police the web to punish free speech and expression when they interfere with the purpose of building an encyclopedia. I am perfectly aware that free speech is suppressed on here, and that is acceptable in my book, as I am more bothered with building an encyclopedia. Wikipedia is not the government, it does not have the right to suppress free speech outside of its bounds. -- Knucmo2 20:02, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
This doesn't decide rules outside WP. Everybody is free to do anything outside WP. The policy only states if you want to do certain things, you should not edit Wikipedia. Editing Wikipedia is no consitutional right! We have such policies allready - e.g. if you take a legal action, you should top editing, etc. -- Wikimol 07:37, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Am I missing something here? If someone links to a personal attack from a Wikipedia talk page with the comment 'this describes you' or something to that effect, then they are making a personal attack on a Wikipedia page (by posting the link). We don't need this new proposal to cover things like that; it would fall under the old policy. -- Aquillion 07:15, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I believe that the following should be added to the list of examples, and the related section on linked materials moved out of the contested extension:
As I read it, as long as they key word 'incorporates' is left in, this should follow directly from existing (non-disputed) policy, and shouldn't be clouded by the above discussions... If someone creates (or stumbles across) a website called 'Aquillion is a jerk' and then incorporates that attack into discussions on Wikipedia by linking to it, then they are effectively making that personal attack against me on Wikipedia itself. Note that I am not voting for amending the policy to cover linked personal attacks; I think that, in the context described, it always has. -- Aquillion 07:31, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't the policy include personal attacks by voice? Such as on the telephone? Or even in person? RJII 00:40, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Links to off-site attacks are much more insidious than internal WP ones. Firstly, people attacked are less likely to know about them, so less likely to be able to respond effectively. Secondly, the links can be changed without trace leaving no proof of the deed. So I think that linking to off site attacks is worst, then internal WP attacks (where people can be called to account), then offsite attacks (which are just bad form and nothing to do with WP). Stephen B Streater 21:04, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
I would be VERY careful about a policy to this end. Simply put, it's a realm that's too hard to control, and leads to problems. I can imagine a message board thread that consists of both valid points and personal attacks that might be worth linking to for the valid and important points. As is the usual manner with such things, I think that additional rules only add additional opportunities for confusion. Phil Sandifer 22:14, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
My question is, why should I be nice? The thing here says "Be nice", etc. yet does not say why. Not a single person here has ever been nice to me. They always delete my edits, even if they are accurate, like on the Ballard High School (Louisville) article. The people here always bitch at me and never at anyone else. No one has been nice. Ever. So why should I be nice? -Alex, 74.133.188.197 04:26, 13 May 2006 (UTC).
Any edit by a guy named "alex" are mine. See, I don't just look at thier "IP address", whatever the hell that is. I am not a number. I am a human being. -Alex, 74.133.188.197 04:18, 14 May 2006 (UTC).
"No personal attacks" does not mean "be nice" in the sense of letting people make this a worse encyclopedia. Admins here are fire-breathing dragons eagerly attacking and destroying those who would make this a worse encyclopedia. WAS 4.250 16:45, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone have any suggestion on how to handle false accusation of personal attack?-- Jusjih 16:51, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I think what is considered "a personal attack" is utterly arbitrary. I have no good solution unless it is AGF. Every "Oh, you attacked me" could be met by "No, I didn't; AGF." Maybe all personal attacks should be automatically void unless some third party verifies; and upon a third party verifying the "attacking" party is allowed to rephrase because maybe an attack wasn't what was meant. In particular, I find SlimVirgin sometimes finds attacks where none was meant; and I sometimes find humor (in others comments) where it becomes clear later an attack was meant. WAS 4.250 22:23, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Time and time again, i find myself appalled at the ignorance around here. If you are accused of making an attack, review the relevant materials of what logically constitutes and attack, and what doesn't
and learn the dif between an attack and a statement of fact consequently detrimental to somebody elses position. Not that Logic currently matters on Wikipedia, but the question of whether or not you are being attacked or whether or not you are attacking somebody is a factual question determined by really very simple laws of Logic.
Prometheuspan
21:57, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I've restored the off-wiki attack section, as I'm not aware that it's seriously disputed. SlimVirgin (talk) 13:01, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
I wonder if there should be something which mentions to the effect that there is some intrinsic ambiguity involved with this. For example, who is to qualify whether something constitutes an attack or not, and what are the consequences of this qualification? However, I think that it would not be for the Wiki to decide what this is. Just a passing thought. -- HappyCamper 13:11, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
The way people enforce good behaviour is through peer pressure. If lots of people are telling someone their behaviour is inappropriate, they will realise this. If one person tells them rudely this is much less likely to be ineffective. This also applies to NPA in general, including off-wiki NPA. Every time someone is told they are losing respect and status with their personal attack, they will think again. Wikipedia is not a democracy, but enforcement of behavioural norms by editors is much more effective than adding more work to the admin police load. Stephen B Streater 06:20, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
It's wrong to say that it is "bypassing" policy if you make anything that could be considered a personal attack on someone who uses Wikipedia outside of Wikipedia, as the policy does not apply to other websites than Wikipedia at the moment.
I see what you mean, but if you read the Extension carefully, it says that it would apply to any breaking of the policy of "no personal attacks" on "online forums and personal websites". Of course anything that could be considered a "personal attack" could be considered "bypassing".
It says in essence, that saying anything that could be considered offensive (that would break the Wikipedia No Personal Attacks policy) on any website on the internet would be considered the same as breaking the policy on Wikipedia, allowing users to be banned if they say anything bad about users of Wikipedia on any other site. The closest legal equivalent is a gagging clause (as in the type used by companies in job contracts to make it possible to take legal action for breach of contract if they say anything that could be considered derogatory about the company or reveal negative things about the company, not the court order). -- Col. Hauler 17:45, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I've edited the heading with the following compromise text:
I believe this is the essense of the dispute. I would hope that both sides discontinue edit warring on this minor wording issue, and get back to discussing the extension itself so consensus is reached. Thank you. -- Malber ( talk • contribs) 18:08, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm uninvolved in recent edits to this page, but policy pages are no place for revert battles. Will revist this protection in a few days. — xaosflux Talk 23:23, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Recently, I made some minor stylistic edits to the Dodge Dart article, and one of the main editors apparently didn't like the edits a lot, and then sent me a message saying my edits were "egotistical" and "immature", traits that I'm known for (at least how I see it). I apologized for my edits and politely defended myself, but then he kept claiming I showed the aforementioned traits in my edits, and now he refuses to talk about it. What do I do in this case? -- ApolloBoy 05:54, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
As a point of fact, whether true or not, calling you immature and egotistical is two ad hominems. YES, you are being attacked. Prometheuspan 21:53, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
As I look now, there are 27 for keep, 27 for strong throw out and almost as many for something else. Realistically, it looks like we will not achieve consensus on either of the two main camps. So I propose we discuss alternative proposals, such as:
Stephen B Streater 09:08, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I'd support any variant that made it clear that off-wiki attacks are not a good thing. I'd also support any variant that went further, that they may influence how one is perceived and treated here, and rightly so. As I have mentioned, I have seen off site attacks and plotting destroy or damage other communities... + + Lar: t/ c 17:30, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Due to recent events of an off-wiki site being used to harass and intimidate two admins, one of which has decided to leave the wiki, I am forced to reconsider my position. I would support any extension that gives admins the power to block and/or extend the block of anyone associated with making threats on an off-wiki site including the people responsible for administrating and monitoring said web site. I will change my vote to support the added extension. -- Malber ( talk • contribs) 17:43, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I see some nice people are voting keep. But this won't make nasty people nice. The man you refer to above, Daniel Brandt, has been banned from Wikipedia. So banning people like him from WP won't stop people like him. Stephen B Streater 19:03, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
To add this text to the policy, as a compromise solution to address the concerns raised about off-wiki personal attacks. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 20:21, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia acknowledges that it is a bad idea to moderate free speech. Is that really why we're having this debate? According to WP:NOT, Wikipedia is not a forum for unregulated free speech, and we regularly censor things such as personal attacks. The issue here, it seems to me, is not that to restrict off-wiki personal attacks would be unacceptable from the standpoint of freedom of speech; clearly it is an acceptable limitation of freedom of speech. Rather the issue here is jurisdiction, or at least that's my reaction. - lethe talk + 01:38, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
To all users voting "oppose": Please note that this new wording is already the modus operandi for this type of behavior. It is not a new addition, just the verbalization of existing application of policy. Off-wiki attacks have influenced actions taken for other violations of policy, in evaluating bad faith by an editor and as evidence in ArbCom decisions. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 20:19, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
These two phrases mean something different. Which one does Wikipedia actually want to say? TharkunColl 23:18, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
The opposite is true. Or at least, that's how an English speaker would say it. TharkunColl 23:26, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
A request was made on WikiEN-l to extend the off-wiki PA section to include wording specific to harrasment, such as recent situations in which people have contacted editor's employers/bosses to "report" editors activities with the intended purpose of harassment. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 19:15, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
How should I handle a situation? I have a problem with a user who started out angry, and got worse. He began hitting my talk pages two, three or more times, apparently so upset he couldn't post a clear thought. he had been posting a commercial link, and multiple editors, including myself, had reverted out his edit adding his site as an external link. He demanded that I explain my edit. I asked him to take it to the talk page of the article ( Rush (band) ), where there was already a thread about his edits. There was also a thread on HIS talk page about the situation. He had chosen to disregard muliple assisting posts, and instead harrass me. I told him his anger was a bad idea, and referred hiim to those pages and the wiki policies. He kept coming at me. Eventually, I told him he was harrassing me, and should go cool off. He kept going.He has ignored multiple requests that he leave me alone. He is confrontational with other editors. I am thoroughly opposed to dealing with this situation any more. He has posted "apology" after "apology" in which he calls me an idiot for not understanding that he's really such a great guy, and demanding that I answer him on my talk pages, instead of dealing with it on the article talk page. Please give me some suggestions for getting him to go away, or get administrative backup to get him away. He's the first editor on Wikipedia to actually make me feel creeped out. ThuranX 03:30, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
See Wikipedia_talk:Refactoring_talk_pages#Refactoring rude comments. Armedblowfish ( talk| contribs) 02:24, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
The RFC resolved the situation. The proposal as currently existing is wide and vague, however this provides a precedent indicating one specific use of an off-wiki website relating to activity in WP, which was agreed by the (fraction of the) community not to be acceptable. Are there other actual precedents of specific classes or types of attack or activity whcih have been resolved or discussed through the WP dispute resolution processes? Midgley 22:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I know of a case where a user has been banned by repeatedly and flagrantly violating wikipedia policy, but still allowed to make comments on talk pages. This user has been those a forum for baiting editors and accusing them of personal attacks. I think banned users should NOT have the opportunity to harass and falsely accuse productive editors. I would like to see the NPA policy modified to not accept such complaints from banned users for a lengthy period of time after they have been banned. The one case I am familiar with has done little to reform and I do not appreciate being harassed as an editor on wikipedia.-- Fahrenheit451 01:30, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I was going to place a NPA tag on a users page but wanted to make sure its appropriate, the user has been calling me a sockpuppet even though the RFCU had stated I was not, then a second one that I requested has proven once again that I am not. They continue to do this asserting that the user they are accusing me of simply switched ISP's. They have even gone on to my RfC and accused me of the following maintaining their accusation in the face of 2 RFCU's. I would like to know if I can place NPA tags over this and if I can get an admin to look at my RfC as its being flooded with these accusations by two users. -- zero faults |sockpuppets| 10:42, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
The criteria of personal attack should be the same as for Slander and libel, i.e., its basis must be false to qualify as either. ... IMHO ( Talk) 03:18, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Some time ago, a lengthy and heated debate took place that I ws a part of. I concisly laid out ALL the pertinent facts of the matter -- in fact one person called it "an essay." The main administrator countered with an open and outright lie. He made a claim that would only have been true if I had not posted anything at all in the debate. What do you do then? What am I supposed to say when someone is lying? On admin told me I should say nothing at all. That would be tantamount to knuckling under to a lie. -- Jason Palpatine 19:34, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
I've noticed that "troll" is a personal attack used constantly on wikipedia. I believe this should stop. What's worse, scroll through through here http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Special%3ALog&type=block&user=&page= and you'll see troll as a personal attack is used constantly even in bannings. Troll on wikipedia is a new version of calling someone a "pedophile". I believe this needs to stop. No matter who says it, they should get warnings and bans for using that as an attack. Even if someone does fit the definition of trolling, we should use a term to describe them that is not a personal attack. It's better to say what they did and saying "trolling" is just being sneaky about it (see Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words). Hardvice 08:03, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
What's next? Will it be considered a personal attack to post {{ test3}} of {{ blatantvandal}} on the talk page of someone who blanks pages? After all, some might think that being called a "vandal" is offensive. As stated above, protesting in good faith about someone's behavior on Wikipedia is fair comment. (That said, such conversations are best taken to user talk pages, so that article talk pages can be about the article and not about the article's editors). And the comparison between trolls and pedophiles is simply outrageous. -- EngineerScotty 21:46, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I want to add that calling someone a troll is a way of saying, "your opinion does not matter, I am calling it trolling when it is not to claim that no matter how passionately you feel, your opinions and feelings make no difference to me." It's a way of saying, "you suck." It is used all over the internet and I've found it used by people who even fit the definition of a troll-oddly hypocritical (no offense to anyone with a user name similar to that word, I mean the entire internet).
Hardvice
23:00, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Given the extent of the (currently unresolved) debate here, I've added the 'disputed policy' template to the offwiki section. If anyone has any strong objections, feel free to remove it. Cynical 20:52, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
What are we supposed to do if we see someone making a personal attack? Ask them not to? Where? on the talk page or their user page? Are their appropriate templates for such a message? -- Chris Griswold 05:25, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
“ | There are certain Wikipedia users who are unpopular, perhaps because of foolish or boorish behavior in the past. Such users may have been subject to disciplinary actions by the Arbitration Committee. It is only human to imagine that such users might be fair game for personal attacks. This notion is misguided; people make mistakes, often learn from them and change their ways. The NPA rule applies to all users irrespective of their past history or how others regard them. | ” |
This paragraph is most definitely written in an anti-human POV, probably by some stinking Martian filth. By castigating all humans as monkeys who thrive on the misfortune of others, whoever wrote this exhibits a clear anti-human bias. This specieist crap is unsourced, unverified and unsupported by any reliable independent source. It needs to be removed ASAP. -- Миборо в ский 19:58, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
User:Buzawz is really started to annoy/infuriate me. He's made several personal attacks on me, even after he was blocked, for it. (The personal attacks can be found here and here.) He keeps saying that using the sandbox is not vandalism, but he is adding obscenities to it, which is why I warned him. If he does it one more time (which he probably will) I will probably explode. What should I do? -- TheGreatLlama ( speak to the Llama!) 01:27, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Yet again DeeCeeVoice has illustrated her endless desire to agitate others over trivialities. This time I would not tolerate it. She wants to feel like the victor and I will not have it. So as you can see on both our talk pages the issue escalated as far as I think it can go without causing a legal issue. So feel free to ban me and her if that is what you feel is necessary. For me, i am tired of the Black People article being locked and since it won't be unlocked until I dissappear here is an excellent chance to resolve that issue. As far as DeeCeeVoice goes, she can feel free to cut all the atoms and bones she wants, but let her know that veiled threats are still threats, conditional threats are still threats. I legally made sure that I myself am not implicated as I clearly explained that in her talk page. I personally request action to be taken against her (and feel free to extend it to myself as well, but do not be biased, reserving action solely upon me please). -- Zaphnathpaaneah 05:52, 19 August 2006 (UTC) -- Zaphnathpaaneah 05:52, 19 August 2006 (UTC) -- Zaphnathpaaneah 05:52, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
See also Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement/User:Deeceevoice [4] CoYep 12:55, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
This page needs to note exceptions in which personal attacks are allowed and encouraged. For example, when users added references to articles, these users are " dictator[s] of Wikipedia." It's also important to note that when users complain about personal attacks, or ask for them to be removed, we should accuse them of sockpuppetry and indefinitely block them. I'm sure we can all agree on this. freestylefrappe 17:30, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
In the section Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks#Remedies, the text suggests at first that someone who is attacked follow the dispute resolution process, and later that they post to WP:PAIN. Aren't these two different things? WP:PAIN doesn't seem to be linked from WP:DR. From the other posts on this talk page, it looks like PAIN, not DR, is the way to go. Let me know if I'm not reading things right. -- Allen 01:10, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Is this a personal attack? Per cfd notice board do not delete categories until voting is done. Then do what you like!!What's with the hate!!Why all this DC Comics tv series in the deletion categories crap. Brian Boru is awesome 22:43, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
I have a suggestion. Why not mention a place where to file reports in the intro? Other wiki-rules have it. My suggestion is something like "Personal attacks may be reported [WP:PAIN|here]". How 'bout it? -- PaxEquilibrium 19:12, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Okay. My user page has been vandalized oh... 20 times or so in the last few days by people (or just one person under IP addresses which seem to be pointing to a school of some sort) who claim I am part of a chinese government conspiracy. Could someone please help me deal with this issue? Colipon+( T) 00:27, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
If somebody write an offensive remark against a racial group/country/religion/gender/etc, does it belong to personal attack? If no, where should I report it? Nielswik 13:06, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
I have a question regarding WP:NPA's scope - I was informed recently that only attacks on editors constitute a violation. But what if a demeaning reference to women as "virgins" and senior citizens as "old-age pensioners" is posted on a user talk page [5]? Its an editor's idea of a sick joke. But there are many women and old people who contribute to Wikipedia and (will) find those "general" statements quite insulting. While an administrator informed me that such statements are not violative of WP:NPA [6], I'd like to have more opinions. Rama's arrow 18:34, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Re: Using someone's affiliations as a means of dismissing or discrediting their views — regardless of whether said affiliations are mainstream or extreme.
It seems like there is an "elephant in the room"--which everyone sees, but no one can mention. Certain editors will go around in groups (some people call them "cabals") and actively push their own narrow POV.
It is the worst when these groups of people put articles up for deletion. For example, certain editors will attempt to squelch 9/11 consipracy theories by putting these articles up for deletion--there voting record is clear--if an article is against their narrow POV, no matter how well written it is, it will be put up for deletion, and this little group will vote against it. (For the record, I do not believe in any 9/11 conspiracy theories)
It is clear that certain editors are doing it because they are biased and slanted, but no wikieditor can actually bring this up. When another wikieditor brings it up, people scream WP:NPA.
Why is the word (insert title here) cabal so off limits? Why when anyone brings up the subject, they are heckled off the talk page?
Does bringing up someones past edit history, (i.e. they always vote, consistently for a certain page to be deleted) considered a personal attack? I support all of wikipedias rules, including WP:NPA, but some editors seem to use wikipolicy as an excuse to abuse the system. RWV 04:48, 22 October 2006 (UTC)