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Here is a repost of the remaining shows that haven't been moved yet, the original list is at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television)/Episode title RfC 3#Programs needing to be moved. I didn't include the shows that have already been moved, they can be seen at the archive page. If I missed any, go ahead and add them to the list. -- Milo H Minderbinder 19:18, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
FYI, since Yaksha ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) went ahead with another batch of non-consensus moves, I have requested a formal block at the Administrator noticeboard: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Requesting block for non-consensus page moves. As of this writing, a block is still being debated, but I would point out that ^demon ( talk · contribs) has posted a formal "cease and desist" on Yaksha's talkpage [1], and posted a formal statement from the Mediation Committee that there is not currently consensus, and that continuing with moves is endangering a mediation [2]. It is my recommendation that we respect this declaration, and cease all moves (by either side), so that the Wikipedia:Dispute resolution process can continue unhindered. I in particular call on the admins in this discussion to set an example of how to be a good Wikipedian, by indicating compliance with the request from WP:MEDCOM. -- Elonka 21:03, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Looks like just good old Star Trek at this point. The arbcom could take weeks or months, is it absolutely necessary to wait until that's over to consider that last show? -- Milo H Minderbinder 14:10, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
If the Star Trek moves go forward at this point, I think it would be best for them to be done through RM. That way the consensus can be clear and unambiguous, and dissenters can have their say. I fully expect a sufficient majority to pass a normal move request. Failing that, we can wait for the ArbCom ruling, which will presumably address the question of whether this guideline has consensus or not. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 23:00, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Is it possible to file the move requests as "all episodes of Star Trek:Series Name that have unnecessary disambiguation", with a handful of examples? I understand that making a list of all the episodes to be moved would be a pain in the ass, and may be more bureaucracy than is necessary, but I think it's important that editors understand that they're speaking about the general principle (preemptive disambiguation for Star Trek episode titles) as much as the specific example (moving A Fistful of Datas (TNG episode) to A Fistful of Datas, or whatever the representative episode for each series is).
If that sort of filing is kosher, we could do it in one fell swoop, centralizing the discussion at one location (don't much care where that is). I don't expect that the arguments for and against predisambiguating Deep Space Nine will be any different from the arguments for and against predisambiguating Enterprise, and it seems redundant to have the same discussion six times. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 08:44, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was Move. I am aware about the ArbCom case and all the wikidrama, but, as lawyers would say, "an appeal does not stop the process"; the supermajority seems to be clear. Duja ► 09:27, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Add "# Support" or "# Oppose" followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
OpposeMany of the titles, ie "Straight and True", "Game Day", "Stray Rounds",etc are common expresions even if such articles don't exist at the moment. The current way they are names "future-proofs" the articles and keeps them all consistant in how they are named.
JeffStickney 23:21, 5 December 2006 (UTC)Resign from debate While I have not changed my mind on what would be more appropriate, I believe keeping this project on hold is doing more harm than good. A lot of people have put a great deal of work into this growing "The Wire"'s entry from a stub to a major project with a featured article at its core. Updates were done frequently and regularly but now it seems to have stalled with 4 episode articles yet to be written, and if this debate is stalling the project then it is not worth it. Of the 4 yet-to-be written articles, "Final Grades" would require a disambig as there is a novel named "Final Grade" (without the s but too similar of a title). The others can probably be named directly. Also, the support votes include Andrew Levine, a "Wire" editor and administrator who has put a lot more work into this project than myself. I watched this project grow up from a stub and don't want to see it dragged down by all this petty bickering. If you guys want to put in the work to move the articles I won't stand in your way. On this particular issue, I quit.
JeffStickney 22:32, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
(responses to JeffStickney's vote, moved here)
(response to Matthew Fenton's vote, moved here)
Would you care to explain why you are starting a discussion here without leaving notification on the affected pages talks? thanks/ Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 21:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Re: JeffStickney's arguments, what do you mean by bad links in articles? You mean redirects? Why are redirects bad? — Wknight94 ( talk) 02:13, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
shouldn't this be on the Talk:List of The Wire episodes page? We are discussing edits to those articles, not edits to the "naming conventions" article. Longterm editors of "the wire" pages and people who have "the wire" pages in their watchlist are largely not seeing this or participating. Putting this discussion there instead of here would be a better test of whether there exists a consensus for that particular show, as to whether or not an exception is warranted. JeffStickney 13:20, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
It doesn't matter exactly where the discussion takes place, as long as the talk pages have a clear note about where the discussion actually is. Remember, these are electronic files we are editing, not real "places". It really doesn't make a difference as long as all are informed. -- Ned Scott 21:54, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I believe the reason it's here is because there's currently a big debate/contraversy going on here. The tag on the talk page of all wire articles (including the main list) will inform any editors of Wire articles to come here. However, placing the discussion here also informs everyone who's participated in this debate to also participate in this request move. -- `/aksha 00:21, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was Move. Duja ► 10:19, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Another Request Move here. All the rest of the TMNT 03 articles have already got moved, but this one got moved back. And now for some reason i can't seem to move it over the redirect, so hence RM again.
Clash of the Turtle Titans (TMNT 2003 Episode) → Clash of the Turtle Titans — same as all the other request moves here. Disambiguation unneeded, per these guidelines and WP:D. `/aksha 00:28, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
An anonymous user has voted and left a comment on the episode talk page. I'm not sure what proper procedure is, but I thought I'd point it out. -- Brian Olsen 02:35, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
As one of the editors that created the TMNT episode pages, I would like to voice my disapproval of the page moves. The dilineation between different series was done because like Star Trek, there are several series within the TMNT world. I can understand leaving out the title disambiguation with some series, but considering TMNT has four series (1987, Next Mutation, 2003, Fast Forward), I think the pages should remain dilineated as such.
Inner City Blues 03:45, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Inner City Blues, I'd recommend participating in the TMMT survey above since it seems like the reason you came here. Your opinion is welcomed. -- Milo H Minderbinder 14:45, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Since we seem to be going down the path of holding RMs for every series to show consensus, I'd like to request that the RMs be held at the various List of <series> episodes pages. Since most of us agree that it doesn't much matter where the poll is being held, putting the poll with the series means that the discussion will be archived with the series and easier to find in the future. I don't know why anyone would think to look in Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television)/Episode title RfC 3 to find a move request on Lost, but lo, it's there. I would suggest moving it from that archive to Talk:List of Lost episodes, but I'm not sure if that's kosher.
Further this page is clogged up enough with just two of these. If we start nominating Star Trek articles... hooo-boy. Think of the children, man. Think of the children. – Anþony talk 14:43, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I'd support future move requests being held on pages related to the series in question. I don't think it's appropriate to move existing move requests, but we should make sure that there are notes about these RMs on the relevant series and "list of x episodes" talk pages. (I think there are.) — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 18:48, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
With the two Request Moves that are still open, can we finish them here, but copy and paste them onto the relavent talk pages after they are finished? With the already completed Lost Request Move, i'll copy it from the archieve and dump it onto the "list of lost episodes" talk page. -- `/aksha 01:35, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
A "Mediation Cabal" page has been opened, at Wikipedia talk:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-12-05 Naming conventions (television). All parties to this dispute (and anyone else who wishes to participate) are requested to post statements there, indicating their versions of: (1) What the dispute is about, (2) what you think of it, and (3) what you think we should do to solve it. Thanks, -- El on ka 20:43, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
It doesn't seem like our current informal mediation with the MedCabal is going to work. And ArbCom seems quite inevitable since we can't seem to resolve this ourselves. So i've jumped ahead and filed in an ArbCom request for this dispute ( here).
Including everyone who's ever expressed an opinion in this issue would be impossible. So i've listed only the five of us who've been most involved in this dispute (mostly based on Wknight's Count) as the "involved parties". I'm hoping none of the people who're not listed mind not being included(i don't think you'll miss out on much anyway).
Hopefully arbitration will end this soap opera once and for all. -- `/aksha 13:03, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
as i said, wknight's count was what i used. Since the discussion is based here, the count accurately reflects how much participation people have had in this dispute, so i don't see why it isn't fair. Matthew, if you're really serious about wanting to participate in the case, then by all means go ahead. Just add your name to the list of involved parties, and write up your statement.
I should point out that once a case is accepted, it gets a seperate subpage, as well as an evidence page. IIRC, anyone (not just the involved parties) can add comments to the talk page, or help provide evidence. So as i said, you're really not missing out on much. -- `/aksha 09:12, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Been a month of wars with mediation and now an RFAR ---- so why not throw another issue into the mix?! :)
What do folks here think about Centrx ( talk · contribs) changing the guideline from TV to television? I was for it and was going to put together the world's largest WP:RM to try and knock that issue out with one shot - but after a quick scan, I'll take a wild guess that several thousand articles and categories would be included. I'd have to report myself for violating WP:POINT!
So what's the initial opinion from this front? I like the idea and a bot could do the bulk of the moves but I'm honestly not sure it's worth the aggravation. — Wknight94 ( talk) 15:44, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
(edit conflict w/Josiah) I just think a dab tag like "(animated television series)" is too long and just plain inconvenient for editors. "TV" is about the most recognizable and unambiguous acronyms ever (none of these come close), one that's certainly entered the mainstream even in professional publications. TV Guide, Yahoo TV, and other businesses use TV in their brand names. Reuters and the AP are comfortable using the acronym in their articles ( Reuters AP). Wikipedia explicitly does not favor the "official" name, but rather the common name. As for film vs. movie, the discussion at that guideline ( "Movie" is a bad choice) included reasoning beyond just professionalism: "movie" is more of an American term and "film" is a broader category than "movies". – Anþony talk 20:41, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
For the longer ones like "animated television series" there is a more compelling reason to shorten it it to "animated TV series" and in addition it is much more immediately clear what is meant, in contrast to "TV series". Still, for others we would have an attack of the abbreviations "US TV series" and "BBC TV series". — Centrx→ talk • 21:37, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I say just go with TV. "Television" would be more 'professional', but as Centrx pointed out, TV is becoming more and more used and accepted as a substitute for "television". So i don't really see moving all those articles as being worth the trouble. -- `/aksha 01:56, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
OK, I think I've just found the trump card here. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (acronyms) explicitly says that acronyms in article titles are to be avoided (thus television), but as disambiguators, well-known acronyms such as "US" or "UK" are encouraged, to minimize typing. Can we change the guideline back now? – Anþony talk 22:14, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
For God's sake, could the lot of you have tagged the dispute on the guideline page? I referred to a version of the page that used "television", and I've been moving pages and updating redirects for the past couple of days. No point being made here, just a lot of frustration. - ryan d 18:58, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
This has been discussed before, i'm quite sure of it. I believe we chose TV to be used in disambiguators, because, as mentioned by Anþony , Wikipedia:Naming conventions (acronyms) explicitly say that acronyms in article titles are to be avoided, but as disambiguators, well-known acronyms such as "US" or "UK" are encouraged, to minimize typing. We also added the rule of using (television) for anything relating to the more general technology/proces/field of TV, because TV without a 2nd disambiguator (such as series) is considerably more ambiguous then "television". 2ndary disambiguating words add more context and as such allow an acronym to be read more easily. You could say that "television series" by itself is not long enough, but when you start adding countries and stuff into the mix as well, it definetly is. Note also that the acronym is not used in categories for instance. This is due to the NC of categories which say that short names are not relevant in categorization, because correct and exact categorization is more important. The acronym is however widely used by stub templates (again because of ease of typing), but also only where 2ndary disambiguating words are used as well. - TheDJ ( talk • contribs • WikiProject Television) 17:36, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Okay, it's been said in this discussion that there are those who dare not tread into the middle of this because the discussion is quite heated and all over the place. Honestly, I'm largely confused myself, since the debate has been more than one-sided. But, since there's an active arbitration request filed, I thought I'd give it one more go for clarity on the issues...
First, there's the notion that articles about individual episodes of one television series in particular ( Lost (TV series)) should be pre-emptively disambiguated by adding (Lost) or (Lost episode) to the end of the article title. Could someone explain to me how this would be reconciled with existing guidelines in Wikipedia:Disambiguation, which states quite clearly near the top of the page: When there is no risk of confusion, do not disambiguate nor add a link to a disambiguation page. I point to Wikipedia:Disambiguation specifically as being undisputed, the product of consensus, and applicable equally to all articles on Wikipedia, not just a subset such as television episodes.
Second, there's been raised the idea that individual WikiProjects be allowed to create their own guidelines regarding articles within their scope, and to have those guidelines respected by other editors. Again, this applies to (primarily) one project dealing with one television show ( Wikipedia:WikiProject Lost). Were this the case, how would this be reconciled with Wikipedia:WikiProject Television episodes? WP:TVE is also a WikiProject, with its own guidelines, and has all television episode articles from all television series as its scope, thus bringing the two into direct conflict. Wikipedia:WikiProject Television episodes states, in part, If there is no disambiguation, the name of the article should be the episode title written with the corresponding capital letters. and When disambiguation is needed, the name will also include a parenthesis clarification with the title of the series. and then proceeds to give two examples of articles where disambiguation is not needed, ironically both from episodes of Lost.
Finally, there is the fact that all we are talking about here, largely, are guidelines, and every guideline states, right at the top of the page in a pretty template, It is generally accepted among editors and is considered a standard that all users should follow. However, it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception. What, exactly, is the common-sense reasoning behind pre-emptively disambiguating episode articles? Consistancy, while important to a degree in Wikipedia formatting, does not seem to justify an exception to one small subcategory of articles. Alternately, if we were to accept the policy of Wikipedia:Ignore all rules, which states quite succinctly and bluntly, If the rules prevent you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore them., how would pre-emptive disambiguation improve this one group of articles in a manner that was justifiable above all other similar articles?
These are the issues I've come across through who-knows how much debate on this and many other pages. I would appreciate answers to these questions in the form of rational, thought-out arguments, or, if I have misrepresented the issues here, clarification on just what it is everyone's on about. Cheers. -- BlueSquadron Raven 21:43, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
(Edit conflict with wknight94) You're pretty much correct in your summary, Raven. Most of the questions you ask have been asked before, and the people who disagree with the current guideline have given various answers to some of them. Although I found these answers unsatisfactory, I'll attempt to present a few of them to the best of my ability, as an exercise in " writing for the enemy".
The most common reply to your first question (how to reconcile preemptive disambiguation here with the general guideline WP:D) has been that all guidelines are subject to common-sense exceptions, and disambiguating all episodes of a given series is regarded by some as "common sense". However, since many editors disagree with this assessment, it seems reasonable to me to use discussion to determine how widespread this notion is — and the discussion here has shown many more editors who do not consider this proposed exception to be "common-sense". Also regarding WP:D, at one point, some editors were claiming that the parenthetical suffix after the episode name wasn't actually disambiguation, but something else. (I never quite understood that argument.)
I don't think your second question has been answered, so I won't attempt to speak for anyone there. As for the third question, I believe that the standard reply has been based on the notion that there is value in giving all articles in a category a consistent-looking naming scheme. (This, of course, ignores the fact that the general Wikipedia disambiguation guidelines advocate disambiguation only when necessary, and provide in themselves a form of Wikipedia-wide consistency.) I'm not sure why this argument is supposed to be valid in the area of television episodes but not for other categories, but that's been the argument. I (and others) feel the "consistency" argument to be merely an aesthetic judgment unsupported by (and contrary to) other Wikipedia guidelines and policy, such as WP:D.
There was also an argument made suggesting that it was good for article titles to provide context for the articles. This, however, is not what article naming is for, and is adequately taken care of by the first line of the article and the category system.
If I have misrepresented the positions of those who oppose this guideline, please accept my apologies and provide corrections. Thanks. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 23:52, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
After much review of your statements and your links to historic events in this long-ranging dispute, I believe the first poll that was conducted reached consensus under the policy of when consensus is reached- [14]. I believe that since the first vote had a large precentage in the affirmative and while it seems only Elonka wishes to continue this dispute, the poll should be the factor here. While a few others also oppose the poll, another poll would not work, unless...Unless it could be under strict scrutiny of a mediator (not myself). A compromise in this dispute seems very difficult to reach, but it seems that at this level of mediation, we must reach one. And therefore I offer to Elonka and the others who oppose consensus that was reached (note that polls are evil [15]) that since you are in the minority, you cannot proceed this further. All must agree to the consensus, but, but! But if this dispute rages on for another week (which it most likely will) I ask that you allow me to sumbit the following to a mediator I am friends with:
Dear ----, there is currently a dispute that I have dealt with, they wish for an informal mediator to review a Survey that wish to produce. You may find the link here ---,
Cheers, Wikizach
So please comment on this, thank you, Wiki eZach| talk 01:59, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Is it standard practice to invite people to an RFAR? [16] — Wknight94 ( talk) 19:07, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Hmm. You know, maybe people should start donating directly to Elonka. All this distruptive campaigning and whatnot surely needs proper funding, right, guys? Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 22:57, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
(GAH! I keep trying to post and you two keep giving me edit conflicts! Stop already!) I'm looking through Elonka's cited example (the Non-Notability case) and I'm not finding anything in the history of Wikipedia:Notability/Historical/Non-notability or Wikipedia talk:Notability/Historical/Non-notability where the ArbCom case was advertised. Apparently people found it on their own.
I don't see a problem with the note at the top of the talk page, but I strongly object to the notice on the guideline itself. Any kind of notice (dispute tag, RFAR tag, whatever) on the guideline itself gives the impression that somehow the guideline is not in effect and need not be followed. That may well be Elonka's intent, but the guideline has broad consensus support and is still in effect unless ArbCom says otherwise. – Anþony talk 23:15, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
There is a new survey to clarify the meaning/applicability of the "use common names" guideline/convention. See WT:NC#Proposal: clarify meaning of "use most common name" guideline. -- Serge 00:35, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Okay, over the course of twenty-foir hours, Elonka has repeatedmade edits to the project page without consensus. How many times must it be said to you, El? "No consensus, no edits, period." This isn't debatable and the edits Elonka has made certainly are not exceptions of any kind. Adding an official template without following the rules required to apply that template is inappropriate. Adding an unofficial template based on the official one is not appropriate. If Elonka persists, I see only two definitive resolutions, as she clearly won't accept our attempts to reason with her.
Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 05:00, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Even easier solution - just revert the tag. There's no consensus to add a disputed tag, so i doubt we're short of people willing to revert when the disputed tag gets slapped on. I'm sure Elonka's well aware of the 3-revert-rule. -- `/aksha 09:00, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Sigh. This disambiguate-when-needed vs consistent name business is such a classic color of the bikeshed issue. Let's focus on more constructive work. — Quarl ( talk) 2006-12-19 08:45Z
Woahaa. You leave wikipedia be for a couple of months and all hell seems to have broken loose in one of my pet-guidelines. And all that apparently because of the "Star Trek" exception? I thought the rules were all pretty clear and all came out of quite strong concensus for the past 2 years. There was an exception for Star Trek, because the WP Star Trek had had a different naming convention for years and the idea was that no one wanted to change all the episode titles (at least that's my recollection). Now I agree that everyone was just "doing" something, and not paying very much attention to said portion of the guideline at all. However since the "relevance/notability" of episode articles was an even LARGER controversy, I think nobody really made a priority of it. Apparently no longer the case :D
BTW: I'm in favor of the original prime NC that says disambiguation is not required unless there is a wikipedia article with the same name.
BTW2: For the people who spent too much time on this. I suggest you divert your attention to properly categorizing series. That seems way more important to me. Or start your own Fandom wiki for your favourite series. - TheDJ ( talk • contribs • WikiProject Television) 01:45, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
The conversation has slowed down a bit on this page, at least. The page is currently 118KB. Would it interfere with anyone's ArbCom links if we archived it again? I was thinking of archiving everything except #Programs needing to be moved (update) and #Quarl's thoughts, which are current discussions. Objections? — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 08:49, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Talk:List of Star Trek episodes#Requested move
Okay, one last Request Move. This one is for all the Star Trek episode articles. I've taken one episode article from each of the six Star Trek seasons. If this Request Move suceeds (concludes with support for move), then i'll go ahead and move all the other Star Trek episode articles.
So, one last call for participation. All input will be appreciated. Thanks -- `/aksha 10:30, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Category:House (TV series) episodes. >Radiant< 10:25, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
I'll go check Category:House (TV series) episodes later. Category:Buffy the Vampire Slayer episodes is already done. There're still quite some articles there with disambiguation, but it's only because a lot of Buffy Episodes have names that're already used by something else (mostly music albums). -- `/aksha 12:40, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
just finished moving the last of the Star Trek episode articles. Which means....yep, they're all done! The huge long list of TV series with incorrectly named episode articles has finally all been checked and moved.
Just wanted to say thanks to everyone who helped in checking/moving all those articles in the last two month.
(now that i've said it, no doubt someone will turn up and identify another TV series with articles needing to be moved...)
-- `/aksha 12:17, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
You called it, Yaksha — I noticed that List of The Outer Limits episodes had a bunch of episodes that were disambiguated with (episode) — no series name, just (episode). Which would be fine, I suppose, if The Outer Limits is the only television series that has ever used that title (but it's ambiguous with some other, non-television article); but they were using it for episodes like Awakening (The Outer Limits) (formerly at Awakening (episode)). I went ahead and changed all the pages that had (episode) as their disambiguator to (The Outer Limits). It's not quite our usual problem of unnecessary disambiguation: instead, it was ambiguous disambiguation.
I also recently had to move a few new Battlestar Galactica episode pages to non-disambiguated titles, and put a reminder at Talk:List of Battlestar Galactica (re-imagined series) episodes#Created pages for episodes 3x12-3x20; a reminder which Matthew Fenton, incidentally, referred to as "bully tactics" (!). But that's just sour grapes. Anyway, I'm glad that the moves are now completed, but since this aspect of the guideline is relatively new, we may have to keep an eye out for misnamed new episode pages. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 07:17, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
One other related issue - there are still some shows that have guidelines that say to always disambiguate, which should be changed. At least, I'm aware of the Star Trek wikiproject. Anyone know of any others? -- Milo H Minderbinder 14:10, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
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Here is a repost of the remaining shows that haven't been moved yet, the original list is at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television)/Episode title RfC 3#Programs needing to be moved. I didn't include the shows that have already been moved, they can be seen at the archive page. If I missed any, go ahead and add them to the list. -- Milo H Minderbinder 19:18, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
FYI, since Yaksha ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) went ahead with another batch of non-consensus moves, I have requested a formal block at the Administrator noticeboard: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Requesting block for non-consensus page moves. As of this writing, a block is still being debated, but I would point out that ^demon ( talk · contribs) has posted a formal "cease and desist" on Yaksha's talkpage [1], and posted a formal statement from the Mediation Committee that there is not currently consensus, and that continuing with moves is endangering a mediation [2]. It is my recommendation that we respect this declaration, and cease all moves (by either side), so that the Wikipedia:Dispute resolution process can continue unhindered. I in particular call on the admins in this discussion to set an example of how to be a good Wikipedian, by indicating compliance with the request from WP:MEDCOM. -- Elonka 21:03, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Looks like just good old Star Trek at this point. The arbcom could take weeks or months, is it absolutely necessary to wait until that's over to consider that last show? -- Milo H Minderbinder 14:10, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
If the Star Trek moves go forward at this point, I think it would be best for them to be done through RM. That way the consensus can be clear and unambiguous, and dissenters can have their say. I fully expect a sufficient majority to pass a normal move request. Failing that, we can wait for the ArbCom ruling, which will presumably address the question of whether this guideline has consensus or not. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 23:00, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Is it possible to file the move requests as "all episodes of Star Trek:Series Name that have unnecessary disambiguation", with a handful of examples? I understand that making a list of all the episodes to be moved would be a pain in the ass, and may be more bureaucracy than is necessary, but I think it's important that editors understand that they're speaking about the general principle (preemptive disambiguation for Star Trek episode titles) as much as the specific example (moving A Fistful of Datas (TNG episode) to A Fistful of Datas, or whatever the representative episode for each series is).
If that sort of filing is kosher, we could do it in one fell swoop, centralizing the discussion at one location (don't much care where that is). I don't expect that the arguments for and against predisambiguating Deep Space Nine will be any different from the arguments for and against predisambiguating Enterprise, and it seems redundant to have the same discussion six times. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 08:44, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was Move. I am aware about the ArbCom case and all the wikidrama, but, as lawyers would say, "an appeal does not stop the process"; the supermajority seems to be clear. Duja ► 09:27, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Add "# Support" or "# Oppose" followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
OpposeMany of the titles, ie "Straight and True", "Game Day", "Stray Rounds",etc are common expresions even if such articles don't exist at the moment. The current way they are names "future-proofs" the articles and keeps them all consistant in how they are named.
JeffStickney 23:21, 5 December 2006 (UTC)Resign from debate While I have not changed my mind on what would be more appropriate, I believe keeping this project on hold is doing more harm than good. A lot of people have put a great deal of work into this growing "The Wire"'s entry from a stub to a major project with a featured article at its core. Updates were done frequently and regularly but now it seems to have stalled with 4 episode articles yet to be written, and if this debate is stalling the project then it is not worth it. Of the 4 yet-to-be written articles, "Final Grades" would require a disambig as there is a novel named "Final Grade" (without the s but too similar of a title). The others can probably be named directly. Also, the support votes include Andrew Levine, a "Wire" editor and administrator who has put a lot more work into this project than myself. I watched this project grow up from a stub and don't want to see it dragged down by all this petty bickering. If you guys want to put in the work to move the articles I won't stand in your way. On this particular issue, I quit.
JeffStickney 22:32, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
(responses to JeffStickney's vote, moved here)
(response to Matthew Fenton's vote, moved here)
Would you care to explain why you are starting a discussion here without leaving notification on the affected pages talks? thanks/ Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 21:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Re: JeffStickney's arguments, what do you mean by bad links in articles? You mean redirects? Why are redirects bad? — Wknight94 ( talk) 02:13, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
shouldn't this be on the Talk:List of The Wire episodes page? We are discussing edits to those articles, not edits to the "naming conventions" article. Longterm editors of "the wire" pages and people who have "the wire" pages in their watchlist are largely not seeing this or participating. Putting this discussion there instead of here would be a better test of whether there exists a consensus for that particular show, as to whether or not an exception is warranted. JeffStickney 13:20, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
It doesn't matter exactly where the discussion takes place, as long as the talk pages have a clear note about where the discussion actually is. Remember, these are electronic files we are editing, not real "places". It really doesn't make a difference as long as all are informed. -- Ned Scott 21:54, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
I believe the reason it's here is because there's currently a big debate/contraversy going on here. The tag on the talk page of all wire articles (including the main list) will inform any editors of Wire articles to come here. However, placing the discussion here also informs everyone who's participated in this debate to also participate in this request move. -- `/aksha 00:21, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was Move. Duja ► 10:19, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Another Request Move here. All the rest of the TMNT 03 articles have already got moved, but this one got moved back. And now for some reason i can't seem to move it over the redirect, so hence RM again.
Clash of the Turtle Titans (TMNT 2003 Episode) → Clash of the Turtle Titans — same as all the other request moves here. Disambiguation unneeded, per these guidelines and WP:D. `/aksha 00:28, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
An anonymous user has voted and left a comment on the episode talk page. I'm not sure what proper procedure is, but I thought I'd point it out. -- Brian Olsen 02:35, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
As one of the editors that created the TMNT episode pages, I would like to voice my disapproval of the page moves. The dilineation between different series was done because like Star Trek, there are several series within the TMNT world. I can understand leaving out the title disambiguation with some series, but considering TMNT has four series (1987, Next Mutation, 2003, Fast Forward), I think the pages should remain dilineated as such.
Inner City Blues 03:45, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Inner City Blues, I'd recommend participating in the TMMT survey above since it seems like the reason you came here. Your opinion is welcomed. -- Milo H Minderbinder 14:45, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Since we seem to be going down the path of holding RMs for every series to show consensus, I'd like to request that the RMs be held at the various List of <series> episodes pages. Since most of us agree that it doesn't much matter where the poll is being held, putting the poll with the series means that the discussion will be archived with the series and easier to find in the future. I don't know why anyone would think to look in Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television)/Episode title RfC 3 to find a move request on Lost, but lo, it's there. I would suggest moving it from that archive to Talk:List of Lost episodes, but I'm not sure if that's kosher.
Further this page is clogged up enough with just two of these. If we start nominating Star Trek articles... hooo-boy. Think of the children, man. Think of the children. – Anþony talk 14:43, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I'd support future move requests being held on pages related to the series in question. I don't think it's appropriate to move existing move requests, but we should make sure that there are notes about these RMs on the relevant series and "list of x episodes" talk pages. (I think there are.) — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 18:48, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
With the two Request Moves that are still open, can we finish them here, but copy and paste them onto the relavent talk pages after they are finished? With the already completed Lost Request Move, i'll copy it from the archieve and dump it onto the "list of lost episodes" talk page. -- `/aksha 01:35, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
A "Mediation Cabal" page has been opened, at Wikipedia talk:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-12-05 Naming conventions (television). All parties to this dispute (and anyone else who wishes to participate) are requested to post statements there, indicating their versions of: (1) What the dispute is about, (2) what you think of it, and (3) what you think we should do to solve it. Thanks, -- El on ka 20:43, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
It doesn't seem like our current informal mediation with the MedCabal is going to work. And ArbCom seems quite inevitable since we can't seem to resolve this ourselves. So i've jumped ahead and filed in an ArbCom request for this dispute ( here).
Including everyone who's ever expressed an opinion in this issue would be impossible. So i've listed only the five of us who've been most involved in this dispute (mostly based on Wknight's Count) as the "involved parties". I'm hoping none of the people who're not listed mind not being included(i don't think you'll miss out on much anyway).
Hopefully arbitration will end this soap opera once and for all. -- `/aksha 13:03, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
as i said, wknight's count was what i used. Since the discussion is based here, the count accurately reflects how much participation people have had in this dispute, so i don't see why it isn't fair. Matthew, if you're really serious about wanting to participate in the case, then by all means go ahead. Just add your name to the list of involved parties, and write up your statement.
I should point out that once a case is accepted, it gets a seperate subpage, as well as an evidence page. IIRC, anyone (not just the involved parties) can add comments to the talk page, or help provide evidence. So as i said, you're really not missing out on much. -- `/aksha 09:12, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Been a month of wars with mediation and now an RFAR ---- so why not throw another issue into the mix?! :)
What do folks here think about Centrx ( talk · contribs) changing the guideline from TV to television? I was for it and was going to put together the world's largest WP:RM to try and knock that issue out with one shot - but after a quick scan, I'll take a wild guess that several thousand articles and categories would be included. I'd have to report myself for violating WP:POINT!
So what's the initial opinion from this front? I like the idea and a bot could do the bulk of the moves but I'm honestly not sure it's worth the aggravation. — Wknight94 ( talk) 15:44, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
(edit conflict w/Josiah) I just think a dab tag like "(animated television series)" is too long and just plain inconvenient for editors. "TV" is about the most recognizable and unambiguous acronyms ever (none of these come close), one that's certainly entered the mainstream even in professional publications. TV Guide, Yahoo TV, and other businesses use TV in their brand names. Reuters and the AP are comfortable using the acronym in their articles ( Reuters AP). Wikipedia explicitly does not favor the "official" name, but rather the common name. As for film vs. movie, the discussion at that guideline ( "Movie" is a bad choice) included reasoning beyond just professionalism: "movie" is more of an American term and "film" is a broader category than "movies". – Anþony talk 20:41, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
For the longer ones like "animated television series" there is a more compelling reason to shorten it it to "animated TV series" and in addition it is much more immediately clear what is meant, in contrast to "TV series". Still, for others we would have an attack of the abbreviations "US TV series" and "BBC TV series". — Centrx→ talk • 21:37, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I say just go with TV. "Television" would be more 'professional', but as Centrx pointed out, TV is becoming more and more used and accepted as a substitute for "television". So i don't really see moving all those articles as being worth the trouble. -- `/aksha 01:56, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
OK, I think I've just found the trump card here. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (acronyms) explicitly says that acronyms in article titles are to be avoided (thus television), but as disambiguators, well-known acronyms such as "US" or "UK" are encouraged, to minimize typing. Can we change the guideline back now? – Anþony talk 22:14, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
For God's sake, could the lot of you have tagged the dispute on the guideline page? I referred to a version of the page that used "television", and I've been moving pages and updating redirects for the past couple of days. No point being made here, just a lot of frustration. - ryan d 18:58, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
This has been discussed before, i'm quite sure of it. I believe we chose TV to be used in disambiguators, because, as mentioned by Anþony , Wikipedia:Naming conventions (acronyms) explicitly say that acronyms in article titles are to be avoided, but as disambiguators, well-known acronyms such as "US" or "UK" are encouraged, to minimize typing. We also added the rule of using (television) for anything relating to the more general technology/proces/field of TV, because TV without a 2nd disambiguator (such as series) is considerably more ambiguous then "television". 2ndary disambiguating words add more context and as such allow an acronym to be read more easily. You could say that "television series" by itself is not long enough, but when you start adding countries and stuff into the mix as well, it definetly is. Note also that the acronym is not used in categories for instance. This is due to the NC of categories which say that short names are not relevant in categorization, because correct and exact categorization is more important. The acronym is however widely used by stub templates (again because of ease of typing), but also only where 2ndary disambiguating words are used as well. - TheDJ ( talk • contribs • WikiProject Television) 17:36, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Okay, it's been said in this discussion that there are those who dare not tread into the middle of this because the discussion is quite heated and all over the place. Honestly, I'm largely confused myself, since the debate has been more than one-sided. But, since there's an active arbitration request filed, I thought I'd give it one more go for clarity on the issues...
First, there's the notion that articles about individual episodes of one television series in particular ( Lost (TV series)) should be pre-emptively disambiguated by adding (Lost) or (Lost episode) to the end of the article title. Could someone explain to me how this would be reconciled with existing guidelines in Wikipedia:Disambiguation, which states quite clearly near the top of the page: When there is no risk of confusion, do not disambiguate nor add a link to a disambiguation page. I point to Wikipedia:Disambiguation specifically as being undisputed, the product of consensus, and applicable equally to all articles on Wikipedia, not just a subset such as television episodes.
Second, there's been raised the idea that individual WikiProjects be allowed to create their own guidelines regarding articles within their scope, and to have those guidelines respected by other editors. Again, this applies to (primarily) one project dealing with one television show ( Wikipedia:WikiProject Lost). Were this the case, how would this be reconciled with Wikipedia:WikiProject Television episodes? WP:TVE is also a WikiProject, with its own guidelines, and has all television episode articles from all television series as its scope, thus bringing the two into direct conflict. Wikipedia:WikiProject Television episodes states, in part, If there is no disambiguation, the name of the article should be the episode title written with the corresponding capital letters. and When disambiguation is needed, the name will also include a parenthesis clarification with the title of the series. and then proceeds to give two examples of articles where disambiguation is not needed, ironically both from episodes of Lost.
Finally, there is the fact that all we are talking about here, largely, are guidelines, and every guideline states, right at the top of the page in a pretty template, It is generally accepted among editors and is considered a standard that all users should follow. However, it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception. What, exactly, is the common-sense reasoning behind pre-emptively disambiguating episode articles? Consistancy, while important to a degree in Wikipedia formatting, does not seem to justify an exception to one small subcategory of articles. Alternately, if we were to accept the policy of Wikipedia:Ignore all rules, which states quite succinctly and bluntly, If the rules prevent you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore them., how would pre-emptive disambiguation improve this one group of articles in a manner that was justifiable above all other similar articles?
These are the issues I've come across through who-knows how much debate on this and many other pages. I would appreciate answers to these questions in the form of rational, thought-out arguments, or, if I have misrepresented the issues here, clarification on just what it is everyone's on about. Cheers. -- BlueSquadron Raven 21:43, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
(Edit conflict with wknight94) You're pretty much correct in your summary, Raven. Most of the questions you ask have been asked before, and the people who disagree with the current guideline have given various answers to some of them. Although I found these answers unsatisfactory, I'll attempt to present a few of them to the best of my ability, as an exercise in " writing for the enemy".
The most common reply to your first question (how to reconcile preemptive disambiguation here with the general guideline WP:D) has been that all guidelines are subject to common-sense exceptions, and disambiguating all episodes of a given series is regarded by some as "common sense". However, since many editors disagree with this assessment, it seems reasonable to me to use discussion to determine how widespread this notion is — and the discussion here has shown many more editors who do not consider this proposed exception to be "common-sense". Also regarding WP:D, at one point, some editors were claiming that the parenthetical suffix after the episode name wasn't actually disambiguation, but something else. (I never quite understood that argument.)
I don't think your second question has been answered, so I won't attempt to speak for anyone there. As for the third question, I believe that the standard reply has been based on the notion that there is value in giving all articles in a category a consistent-looking naming scheme. (This, of course, ignores the fact that the general Wikipedia disambiguation guidelines advocate disambiguation only when necessary, and provide in themselves a form of Wikipedia-wide consistency.) I'm not sure why this argument is supposed to be valid in the area of television episodes but not for other categories, but that's been the argument. I (and others) feel the "consistency" argument to be merely an aesthetic judgment unsupported by (and contrary to) other Wikipedia guidelines and policy, such as WP:D.
There was also an argument made suggesting that it was good for article titles to provide context for the articles. This, however, is not what article naming is for, and is adequately taken care of by the first line of the article and the category system.
If I have misrepresented the positions of those who oppose this guideline, please accept my apologies and provide corrections. Thanks. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 23:52, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
After much review of your statements and your links to historic events in this long-ranging dispute, I believe the first poll that was conducted reached consensus under the policy of when consensus is reached- [14]. I believe that since the first vote had a large precentage in the affirmative and while it seems only Elonka wishes to continue this dispute, the poll should be the factor here. While a few others also oppose the poll, another poll would not work, unless...Unless it could be under strict scrutiny of a mediator (not myself). A compromise in this dispute seems very difficult to reach, but it seems that at this level of mediation, we must reach one. And therefore I offer to Elonka and the others who oppose consensus that was reached (note that polls are evil [15]) that since you are in the minority, you cannot proceed this further. All must agree to the consensus, but, but! But if this dispute rages on for another week (which it most likely will) I ask that you allow me to sumbit the following to a mediator I am friends with:
Dear ----, there is currently a dispute that I have dealt with, they wish for an informal mediator to review a Survey that wish to produce. You may find the link here ---,
Cheers, Wikizach
So please comment on this, thank you, Wiki eZach| talk 01:59, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Is it standard practice to invite people to an RFAR? [16] — Wknight94 ( talk) 19:07, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Hmm. You know, maybe people should start donating directly to Elonka. All this distruptive campaigning and whatnot surely needs proper funding, right, guys? Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 22:57, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
(GAH! I keep trying to post and you two keep giving me edit conflicts! Stop already!) I'm looking through Elonka's cited example (the Non-Notability case) and I'm not finding anything in the history of Wikipedia:Notability/Historical/Non-notability or Wikipedia talk:Notability/Historical/Non-notability where the ArbCom case was advertised. Apparently people found it on their own.
I don't see a problem with the note at the top of the talk page, but I strongly object to the notice on the guideline itself. Any kind of notice (dispute tag, RFAR tag, whatever) on the guideline itself gives the impression that somehow the guideline is not in effect and need not be followed. That may well be Elonka's intent, but the guideline has broad consensus support and is still in effect unless ArbCom says otherwise. – Anþony talk 23:15, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
There is a new survey to clarify the meaning/applicability of the "use common names" guideline/convention. See WT:NC#Proposal: clarify meaning of "use most common name" guideline. -- Serge 00:35, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Okay, over the course of twenty-foir hours, Elonka has repeatedmade edits to the project page without consensus. How many times must it be said to you, El? "No consensus, no edits, period." This isn't debatable and the edits Elonka has made certainly are not exceptions of any kind. Adding an official template without following the rules required to apply that template is inappropriate. Adding an unofficial template based on the official one is not appropriate. If Elonka persists, I see only two definitive resolutions, as she clearly won't accept our attempts to reason with her.
Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 05:00, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Even easier solution - just revert the tag. There's no consensus to add a disputed tag, so i doubt we're short of people willing to revert when the disputed tag gets slapped on. I'm sure Elonka's well aware of the 3-revert-rule. -- `/aksha 09:00, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Sigh. This disambiguate-when-needed vs consistent name business is such a classic color of the bikeshed issue. Let's focus on more constructive work. — Quarl ( talk) 2006-12-19 08:45Z
Woahaa. You leave wikipedia be for a couple of months and all hell seems to have broken loose in one of my pet-guidelines. And all that apparently because of the "Star Trek" exception? I thought the rules were all pretty clear and all came out of quite strong concensus for the past 2 years. There was an exception for Star Trek, because the WP Star Trek had had a different naming convention for years and the idea was that no one wanted to change all the episode titles (at least that's my recollection). Now I agree that everyone was just "doing" something, and not paying very much attention to said portion of the guideline at all. However since the "relevance/notability" of episode articles was an even LARGER controversy, I think nobody really made a priority of it. Apparently no longer the case :D
BTW: I'm in favor of the original prime NC that says disambiguation is not required unless there is a wikipedia article with the same name.
BTW2: For the people who spent too much time on this. I suggest you divert your attention to properly categorizing series. That seems way more important to me. Or start your own Fandom wiki for your favourite series. - TheDJ ( talk • contribs • WikiProject Television) 01:45, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
The conversation has slowed down a bit on this page, at least. The page is currently 118KB. Would it interfere with anyone's ArbCom links if we archived it again? I was thinking of archiving everything except #Programs needing to be moved (update) and #Quarl's thoughts, which are current discussions. Objections? — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 08:49, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Talk:List of Star Trek episodes#Requested move
Okay, one last Request Move. This one is for all the Star Trek episode articles. I've taken one episode article from each of the six Star Trek seasons. If this Request Move suceeds (concludes with support for move), then i'll go ahead and move all the other Star Trek episode articles.
So, one last call for participation. All input will be appreciated. Thanks -- `/aksha 10:30, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Category:House (TV series) episodes. >Radiant< 10:25, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
I'll go check Category:House (TV series) episodes later. Category:Buffy the Vampire Slayer episodes is already done. There're still quite some articles there with disambiguation, but it's only because a lot of Buffy Episodes have names that're already used by something else (mostly music albums). -- `/aksha 12:40, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
just finished moving the last of the Star Trek episode articles. Which means....yep, they're all done! The huge long list of TV series with incorrectly named episode articles has finally all been checked and moved.
Just wanted to say thanks to everyone who helped in checking/moving all those articles in the last two month.
(now that i've said it, no doubt someone will turn up and identify another TV series with articles needing to be moved...)
-- `/aksha 12:17, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
You called it, Yaksha — I noticed that List of The Outer Limits episodes had a bunch of episodes that were disambiguated with (episode) — no series name, just (episode). Which would be fine, I suppose, if The Outer Limits is the only television series that has ever used that title (but it's ambiguous with some other, non-television article); but they were using it for episodes like Awakening (The Outer Limits) (formerly at Awakening (episode)). I went ahead and changed all the pages that had (episode) as their disambiguator to (The Outer Limits). It's not quite our usual problem of unnecessary disambiguation: instead, it was ambiguous disambiguation.
I also recently had to move a few new Battlestar Galactica episode pages to non-disambiguated titles, and put a reminder at Talk:List of Battlestar Galactica (re-imagined series) episodes#Created pages for episodes 3x12-3x20; a reminder which Matthew Fenton, incidentally, referred to as "bully tactics" (!). But that's just sour grapes. Anyway, I'm glad that the moves are now completed, but since this aspect of the guideline is relatively new, we may have to keep an eye out for misnamed new episode pages. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 07:17, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
One other related issue - there are still some shows that have guidelines that say to always disambiguate, which should be changed. At least, I'm aware of the Star Trek wikiproject. Anyone know of any others? -- Milo H Minderbinder 14:10, 7 January 2007 (UTC)