This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
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As the mediator at Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Lost episodes I was asked to comment here. I can confirm, for what it's worth, that the issue of appending (Lost) to every episode was raised by Elonka at one point, but it was not disucussed during the time I was mediator and was not part of the final agreement.
More importantly, can I direct your attention to Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Highways? There was a year-long edit and move war over state highway names—should an article be named California State Route 91 or State Route 91 (California)? There were move wars, blocks, mediation, and finally arbitration, leading to a complex 3 month long multi-stage poll. When the poll went the wrong way, the leader of one fanction, a highly prolific contributor with more than 40,000 edits, simply quit in frustration. Please look at the principles in that case, especially 9) When an arbitrary decision is called for, it should be made by those users and administrators in a position to do so. Sometimes any decision is better than no decision. and 10) When an arguably arbitrary decision has been made, unless there is a substantial basis for changing it, the decision should be accepted. Rather than taking sides on the issue, can I ask that all sides step back, think about it from the point of view of a user, not an editor, think about the prinicples adopted in the Highways arbitration case, and most importantly, think about whether the time and energy you might spent fighting over this issue might be better spent. Thatcher131 12:31, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Here's the latest version of recommended poll wording:
If anyone has trouble with any of the above wording, please suggest changes below. If no one has concerns with wording within the next few days, we'll go ahead and proceed with the poll. Thanks. -- Elonka 00:08, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Question #1 shouldn't even be addressed here. Whether individual projects or groups of editors can override a guideline is not specific to television episode articles. It's a general Wikipedia question and should be addressed in a more public forum. — Wknight94 ( talk) 02:00, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
I realize that some people are opposed to a new poll, and are clinging to the results of the old one, but I think it's clear the old one was run in a very biased manner. A new survey would help clarify the exact issues in dispute, and would allow everyone to participate, even the casual editors who are not following this discussion on an hourly (or even daily) basis. I've been receiving many complaints from people who say that they want to weigh in on this discussion, but they're confused as to what exactly is being discussed. And I have to agree, that there are a few people here who seem to be posting so many times per day, that it makes it very difficult to follow things. ArbCom has ruled that polls are appropriate in situations where there a large number of editors.
Other editors also want a new poll, though they're not posting in this discussion on a daily basis. A a review though:
A clean and fairly-run survey would help to show where the consensus genuinely lies, and would help clarify who's on which side of the issue. I strongly recommend that we proceed. -- Elonka 00:15, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Hello. My 'name' is Wikizach. I have been asked to be an informal mediator. I would like to know everything that is going on, so if you can, please tell me on my talk page. I would greatly like to support a fair vote. Please sumbit your requests to me. Thank you. Wiki eZach| talk 01:41, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I have filed a formal mediation request at Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Wikipedia:Naming conventions (television), and will be contacting all participants. Since so many people have participated in this discussion, I listed only those who have made significant comments recently; however, as far as I'm concerned anyone who wishes to join the mediation is welcome. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 03:11, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I have actually been following this debate pretty faithfully though I haven't posted much for some time. Of the tremendous amount of discussion this issue has generated, it is my impression that much of the recent discussion has actually been debate about the debate itself, and as such the actual issues are becoming harder for the casual editor to follow.
As is currently being pointed out at the RfM talk page, I think that the current request for mediation is unclear, and I think it is a direct result of the confusion I just mentioned. In that vein, I think it's important to take several steps back and clarify the core issue, in preparation for mediation. What follows is my attempt to do so.
It appears to me that there is consensus in support of the following guideline:
There is also established consensus in support of the following guideline:
It has been proposed that the first guideline above be amended with the following statement:
"In some cases, such as upon agreement from a WikiProject about a certain series (for example, with Star Trek), all episodes within that series may use a consistent titling system, such as a specific abbreviation which indicates which series it is from, regardless of whether or not the suffix is strictly required by disambiguation rules. These are special 'exception' cases and are generally discouraged for other series."
First of all, I'd like to be certain that the proposal above is the core issue. Elonka has stated this several times with only slightly different wording, so I am assuming that it is accurate. However, Elonka, if I have misrepresented you here, or if your actual request is for something different, please feel free to change the "Proposal" section. MatthewFenton, and anyone else who may also disagree with the current guideline, if you have a proposal that is different from Elonka's, then perhaps it would be useful to make a new section in this same format so we can we can address it as well.
Second, assuming that the proposal is accurate, I invite people to edit the "Arguments" sections above to clearly state their views in relation to the proposal. I think it might be useful for MedCom if we keep each of these sections to a certain length; I'd like to suggest 150 words per section. To keep it within this length, I invite people to edit the existing content as you feel is necessary to accurately describe the current views.
Josiah, I appreciate the effort you put into the RfM, and I hope this process helps it succeed. If, for some reason, it is rejected, then perhaps a bit of organization in this manner will help us construct a new, successful RfM... or, ideally, obviate the need for one. -- Toby Rush ‹ ✆| ✍ › 21:38, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
FYI it says this at Wikipedia:Mediations: "When a mediation request is filed at Requests for Mediation, the initating party fills out a pre-defined format, listing the parties, the articles involved, the previous steps in dispute resolution, and a concise set of issues to be mediated, stated as neutral bullet points. The Committee is very strict about the form of requests, in order to prevent the massive debates and flame wars that have taken place in the past. Requests that fail or refuse to comply with the required format will be rejected; the Committee expects compliance with Committee policy and procedure as a minimum demonstration of the good faith necessary for mediation." (emphasis added) Riverbend 01:07, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Elonka, one or two people protesting a change, even to "longstanding guidelines", does not constitute a lack of consensus for that change. Besides, however few people were paying attention when that happened, there are many more people paying attention now, and the consensus is clear. So what happened in the past with much fewer numbers paying attention is moot. -- Serge 20:33, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
While it may be late in the game, I would like to toss my opinion in here. I was particularly perturbed when all of the Charmed episodes suddenly were renamed; thankfully I was directed here to see what was going on. My vote is firmly Support as I am a categorization and organization junkie, and feel that having the appropriate series designation after the episode name make things so much simpler for those individuals searching for terms (allows them to see at a glance that an article is or isn't what they're looking for). I also see that there is an effort to rename all the Star Trek episodes. I would definitely discourage this action for Trek, or any other multi-series franchise; one reason being that citation templates have been built around Wikipedia (not necessarily for Trek, just using it as an example) which reference particular episodes, and rely upon a standard naming convention to easily link to episodes and uniformly organize the cites. While redirects mean this isn't a tremendously big problem, it still creates a big mess that has to be cleaned up. For television series with well layed out, executed, and established formats, there seems no reason to to perform mass renames. -- Huntster T • @ • C 21:58, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Recently I've noticed some editors suggesting that I oppose WikiProjects having guidelines ( here, implicitly here). This is inaccurate, and if I've given that impression I apologize. It is completely appropriate for WikiProjects to develop guidelines for articles in their field of interest. The issue, for me, is that if those guidelines come into conflict with general Wikipedia guidelines, the WikiProject should be able to explain their reasoning for any exceptions in a manner that is comprehensible and acceptable to non-Project members. And if, after discussion, a wide consensus of non-Project members feel that the WikiProject's guideline is a bad idea, the WikiProject should yield to the larger consensus.
I hope that we can stop the misleading talk of whether WikiProjects are "allowed to set guidelines" — I don't think anyone is saying they shouldn't be. The only question is how much weight those guidelines should be given, especially when they come into conflict with the guidelines of Wikipedia as a whole. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 23:13, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I like the direction the discussion has been heading. I also think the comments from Thatcher131 were excellent and very relevant to this discussion; I'd strongly recommend reading them and the case he links to (I'd also recommend moving it to the bottom, right now it's lost in the middle of a huge discussion). We definitely have consensus on the guideline itself, and the debate seems to be about making exceptions, and about whether the guideline should mention them. I think a possible compromise is saying that exceptions are possible, but make it clear that the bar is set high for them. I also think it's better to talk about exceptions in general instead of listing examples of them. I tried to make most of this a reflection of wikipedia guidelines as opposed to setting any new ones. This is pretty wordy , but I tried to make it as clear and loophole-free as possible. Any comments would be appreciated, and feel free to use this as a jumping off point for other possible wordings:
As with all Wikipedia guidelines, exceptions may be made, but only if there is consensus to do so. While "common sense" should be used to make exceptions, individuals may not come to the same "common sense" conclusions; if the community at large can't be convinced that a proposal is "common sense", it may not be. Keep in mind that consensus is made up of the community at large. A small group of editors working on articles may come to a decision, but others in the general Wikipedia community may not agree. Wikipedia pages do not have owners or custodians who control edits to them, and since television articles share the namespace with all other topics, any exceptions can affect the entire encyclopedia. While it's not mandatory to seek wider comment on making exception to a guideline, it's probably a good idea if you think there may be objections. A consensus decision to make an exception is not binding, and that exception may be reversed if consensus changes.
If there isn't consensus for making an exception, the guidelines should be followed.
-- Milo H Minderbinder 21:12, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Another requested move of a Lost episode (correction: it's a spongebob squarepants episode). This time:
See Talk:The Sponge Who Could Fly (The Lost Episode)#Requested move -- Serge 20:50, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Note: I don't know what the above dispute is about, and someone should archive this talk page.
"TV series" is not a moniker appropriate for a professional, long-term encyclopedia. "Television series" is the clearer, full name that will be understood by the most people for the longest period of time. — Centrx→ talk • 00:53, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
This is an interesting ArbCom ruling that just closed. Though not about naming conventions, it does have several similarities with our own dispute here, including the issue about polls, and whether or not it was proper for Radiant (or anyone) to have been deleting polls posted by another user: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Non-Notability. See especially the "Principles" and "Findings of Fact". -- Elonka 06:29, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
I propose we remove the tag saying the guideline is disputed. While I acknowledge that there are a couple individuals who don't agree with the current version, I don't think the opposition rises to the level of calling the entire policy into dispute. I also feel that the tag was not added by consensus, but as the result of stopping a revert war, and now the tag has been used as an argument for not following the policy. The tag links to Wikipedia:Policy dispute, which says that a guideline should only be declared "disputed" if there's broad consensus to do so. Based on what that page says, I don't think it's appropriate to leave the tag on this page. -- Milo H Minderbinder 16:56, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Guys, this is absurd. Of course there is a dispute, as is indicated by the fact that mediation is requested, or have you forgotten that you yourselves have signed on to it? For a reminder, please see: Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Wikipedia:Naming conventions (television). Anyone, on any side who is engaging in disruptive behavior right now is not helping their case, and when incivility and profanity are thrown in to boot, it just increases the stack of diffs that are going to be used later to prove bad faith. Some of you are able to act like mature adults, who know how to post in a civil manner, and offer reasoned discussions. I think that everyone, deep down, probably also remembers that we're here to build an encyclopedia, not to engage in some sort of weird "wiki-combat." Please, can we all calm down, stay focused, allow the WP:DR process to work, give time for everyone to weigh in, and be civil to one another? -- Elonka 00:41, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Matthew, Elonka, I'd like to point some things out to you:
So, you see, to quote Matthew, "it's a catch22". You can't use a real template for various reasons, and the current template is unofficial. Ultimately, neither is needed. This is probably one of the most famous discussions on Wikipedia now. No one reading the guideline needs to be told about it. Gees. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 21:42, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Well, the formal mediation request has not yet been formally rejected, but considering that people are bailing on it, it's not looking hopeful. [22] [23] [24] So, unless we can figure out how to get formal mediation back on track, I recommend that we try a different technique of dispute resolution, which is an informal "Mediation cabal" process. No one needs to specifically sign up for this or be an "official participant," you can just dive in and speak your mind (civility, of course, is encouraged). For anyone who wants to participate, or just watch, please set Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-12-05 Naming conventions (television) on your watchlists.
This entire process has turned out to be quite the education on Wikipedia dispute resolution techniques! I'd still very much like to avoid ArbCom, but if all else fails, it's a last resort. Be warned though that ArbCom is extremely formal, extremely time-consuming (it could take months) and can be very emotionally-draining on all parties. So, I really strongly recommend that we do everything possible to avoid it, and give mediation a good faith effort. -- Elonka 18:41, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
|
As the mediator at Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Lost episodes I was asked to comment here. I can confirm, for what it's worth, that the issue of appending (Lost) to every episode was raised by Elonka at one point, but it was not disucussed during the time I was mediator and was not part of the final agreement.
More importantly, can I direct your attention to Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Highways? There was a year-long edit and move war over state highway names—should an article be named California State Route 91 or State Route 91 (California)? There were move wars, blocks, mediation, and finally arbitration, leading to a complex 3 month long multi-stage poll. When the poll went the wrong way, the leader of one fanction, a highly prolific contributor with more than 40,000 edits, simply quit in frustration. Please look at the principles in that case, especially 9) When an arbitrary decision is called for, it should be made by those users and administrators in a position to do so. Sometimes any decision is better than no decision. and 10) When an arguably arbitrary decision has been made, unless there is a substantial basis for changing it, the decision should be accepted. Rather than taking sides on the issue, can I ask that all sides step back, think about it from the point of view of a user, not an editor, think about the prinicples adopted in the Highways arbitration case, and most importantly, think about whether the time and energy you might spent fighting over this issue might be better spent. Thatcher131 12:31, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Here's the latest version of recommended poll wording:
If anyone has trouble with any of the above wording, please suggest changes below. If no one has concerns with wording within the next few days, we'll go ahead and proceed with the poll. Thanks. -- Elonka 00:08, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Question #1 shouldn't even be addressed here. Whether individual projects or groups of editors can override a guideline is not specific to television episode articles. It's a general Wikipedia question and should be addressed in a more public forum. — Wknight94 ( talk) 02:00, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
I realize that some people are opposed to a new poll, and are clinging to the results of the old one, but I think it's clear the old one was run in a very biased manner. A new survey would help clarify the exact issues in dispute, and would allow everyone to participate, even the casual editors who are not following this discussion on an hourly (or even daily) basis. I've been receiving many complaints from people who say that they want to weigh in on this discussion, but they're confused as to what exactly is being discussed. And I have to agree, that there are a few people here who seem to be posting so many times per day, that it makes it very difficult to follow things. ArbCom has ruled that polls are appropriate in situations where there a large number of editors.
Other editors also want a new poll, though they're not posting in this discussion on a daily basis. A a review though:
A clean and fairly-run survey would help to show where the consensus genuinely lies, and would help clarify who's on which side of the issue. I strongly recommend that we proceed. -- Elonka 00:15, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Hello. My 'name' is Wikizach. I have been asked to be an informal mediator. I would like to know everything that is going on, so if you can, please tell me on my talk page. I would greatly like to support a fair vote. Please sumbit your requests to me. Thank you. Wiki eZach| talk 01:41, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I have filed a formal mediation request at Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Wikipedia:Naming conventions (television), and will be contacting all participants. Since so many people have participated in this discussion, I listed only those who have made significant comments recently; however, as far as I'm concerned anyone who wishes to join the mediation is welcome. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 03:11, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I have actually been following this debate pretty faithfully though I haven't posted much for some time. Of the tremendous amount of discussion this issue has generated, it is my impression that much of the recent discussion has actually been debate about the debate itself, and as such the actual issues are becoming harder for the casual editor to follow.
As is currently being pointed out at the RfM talk page, I think that the current request for mediation is unclear, and I think it is a direct result of the confusion I just mentioned. In that vein, I think it's important to take several steps back and clarify the core issue, in preparation for mediation. What follows is my attempt to do so.
It appears to me that there is consensus in support of the following guideline:
There is also established consensus in support of the following guideline:
It has been proposed that the first guideline above be amended with the following statement:
"In some cases, such as upon agreement from a WikiProject about a certain series (for example, with Star Trek), all episodes within that series may use a consistent titling system, such as a specific abbreviation which indicates which series it is from, regardless of whether or not the suffix is strictly required by disambiguation rules. These are special 'exception' cases and are generally discouraged for other series."
First of all, I'd like to be certain that the proposal above is the core issue. Elonka has stated this several times with only slightly different wording, so I am assuming that it is accurate. However, Elonka, if I have misrepresented you here, or if your actual request is for something different, please feel free to change the "Proposal" section. MatthewFenton, and anyone else who may also disagree with the current guideline, if you have a proposal that is different from Elonka's, then perhaps it would be useful to make a new section in this same format so we can we can address it as well.
Second, assuming that the proposal is accurate, I invite people to edit the "Arguments" sections above to clearly state their views in relation to the proposal. I think it might be useful for MedCom if we keep each of these sections to a certain length; I'd like to suggest 150 words per section. To keep it within this length, I invite people to edit the existing content as you feel is necessary to accurately describe the current views.
Josiah, I appreciate the effort you put into the RfM, and I hope this process helps it succeed. If, for some reason, it is rejected, then perhaps a bit of organization in this manner will help us construct a new, successful RfM... or, ideally, obviate the need for one. -- Toby Rush ‹ ✆| ✍ › 21:38, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
FYI it says this at Wikipedia:Mediations: "When a mediation request is filed at Requests for Mediation, the initating party fills out a pre-defined format, listing the parties, the articles involved, the previous steps in dispute resolution, and a concise set of issues to be mediated, stated as neutral bullet points. The Committee is very strict about the form of requests, in order to prevent the massive debates and flame wars that have taken place in the past. Requests that fail or refuse to comply with the required format will be rejected; the Committee expects compliance with Committee policy and procedure as a minimum demonstration of the good faith necessary for mediation." (emphasis added) Riverbend 01:07, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Elonka, one or two people protesting a change, even to "longstanding guidelines", does not constitute a lack of consensus for that change. Besides, however few people were paying attention when that happened, there are many more people paying attention now, and the consensus is clear. So what happened in the past with much fewer numbers paying attention is moot. -- Serge 20:33, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
While it may be late in the game, I would like to toss my opinion in here. I was particularly perturbed when all of the Charmed episodes suddenly were renamed; thankfully I was directed here to see what was going on. My vote is firmly Support as I am a categorization and organization junkie, and feel that having the appropriate series designation after the episode name make things so much simpler for those individuals searching for terms (allows them to see at a glance that an article is or isn't what they're looking for). I also see that there is an effort to rename all the Star Trek episodes. I would definitely discourage this action for Trek, or any other multi-series franchise; one reason being that citation templates have been built around Wikipedia (not necessarily for Trek, just using it as an example) which reference particular episodes, and rely upon a standard naming convention to easily link to episodes and uniformly organize the cites. While redirects mean this isn't a tremendously big problem, it still creates a big mess that has to be cleaned up. For television series with well layed out, executed, and established formats, there seems no reason to to perform mass renames. -- Huntster T • @ • C 21:58, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Recently I've noticed some editors suggesting that I oppose WikiProjects having guidelines ( here, implicitly here). This is inaccurate, and if I've given that impression I apologize. It is completely appropriate for WikiProjects to develop guidelines for articles in their field of interest. The issue, for me, is that if those guidelines come into conflict with general Wikipedia guidelines, the WikiProject should be able to explain their reasoning for any exceptions in a manner that is comprehensible and acceptable to non-Project members. And if, after discussion, a wide consensus of non-Project members feel that the WikiProject's guideline is a bad idea, the WikiProject should yield to the larger consensus.
I hope that we can stop the misleading talk of whether WikiProjects are "allowed to set guidelines" — I don't think anyone is saying they shouldn't be. The only question is how much weight those guidelines should be given, especially when they come into conflict with the guidelines of Wikipedia as a whole. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 23:13, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I like the direction the discussion has been heading. I also think the comments from Thatcher131 were excellent and very relevant to this discussion; I'd strongly recommend reading them and the case he links to (I'd also recommend moving it to the bottom, right now it's lost in the middle of a huge discussion). We definitely have consensus on the guideline itself, and the debate seems to be about making exceptions, and about whether the guideline should mention them. I think a possible compromise is saying that exceptions are possible, but make it clear that the bar is set high for them. I also think it's better to talk about exceptions in general instead of listing examples of them. I tried to make most of this a reflection of wikipedia guidelines as opposed to setting any new ones. This is pretty wordy , but I tried to make it as clear and loophole-free as possible. Any comments would be appreciated, and feel free to use this as a jumping off point for other possible wordings:
As with all Wikipedia guidelines, exceptions may be made, but only if there is consensus to do so. While "common sense" should be used to make exceptions, individuals may not come to the same "common sense" conclusions; if the community at large can't be convinced that a proposal is "common sense", it may not be. Keep in mind that consensus is made up of the community at large. A small group of editors working on articles may come to a decision, but others in the general Wikipedia community may not agree. Wikipedia pages do not have owners or custodians who control edits to them, and since television articles share the namespace with all other topics, any exceptions can affect the entire encyclopedia. While it's not mandatory to seek wider comment on making exception to a guideline, it's probably a good idea if you think there may be objections. A consensus decision to make an exception is not binding, and that exception may be reversed if consensus changes.
If there isn't consensus for making an exception, the guidelines should be followed.
-- Milo H Minderbinder 21:12, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Another requested move of a Lost episode (correction: it's a spongebob squarepants episode). This time:
See Talk:The Sponge Who Could Fly (The Lost Episode)#Requested move -- Serge 20:50, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Note: I don't know what the above dispute is about, and someone should archive this talk page.
"TV series" is not a moniker appropriate for a professional, long-term encyclopedia. "Television series" is the clearer, full name that will be understood by the most people for the longest period of time. — Centrx→ talk • 00:53, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
This is an interesting ArbCom ruling that just closed. Though not about naming conventions, it does have several similarities with our own dispute here, including the issue about polls, and whether or not it was proper for Radiant (or anyone) to have been deleting polls posted by another user: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Non-Notability. See especially the "Principles" and "Findings of Fact". -- Elonka 06:29, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
I propose we remove the tag saying the guideline is disputed. While I acknowledge that there are a couple individuals who don't agree with the current version, I don't think the opposition rises to the level of calling the entire policy into dispute. I also feel that the tag was not added by consensus, but as the result of stopping a revert war, and now the tag has been used as an argument for not following the policy. The tag links to Wikipedia:Policy dispute, which says that a guideline should only be declared "disputed" if there's broad consensus to do so. Based on what that page says, I don't think it's appropriate to leave the tag on this page. -- Milo H Minderbinder 16:56, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Guys, this is absurd. Of course there is a dispute, as is indicated by the fact that mediation is requested, or have you forgotten that you yourselves have signed on to it? For a reminder, please see: Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Wikipedia:Naming conventions (television). Anyone, on any side who is engaging in disruptive behavior right now is not helping their case, and when incivility and profanity are thrown in to boot, it just increases the stack of diffs that are going to be used later to prove bad faith. Some of you are able to act like mature adults, who know how to post in a civil manner, and offer reasoned discussions. I think that everyone, deep down, probably also remembers that we're here to build an encyclopedia, not to engage in some sort of weird "wiki-combat." Please, can we all calm down, stay focused, allow the WP:DR process to work, give time for everyone to weigh in, and be civil to one another? -- Elonka 00:41, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Matthew, Elonka, I'd like to point some things out to you:
So, you see, to quote Matthew, "it's a catch22". You can't use a real template for various reasons, and the current template is unofficial. Ultimately, neither is needed. This is probably one of the most famous discussions on Wikipedia now. No one reading the guideline needs to be told about it. Gees. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 21:42, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Well, the formal mediation request has not yet been formally rejected, but considering that people are bailing on it, it's not looking hopeful. [22] [23] [24] So, unless we can figure out how to get formal mediation back on track, I recommend that we try a different technique of dispute resolution, which is an informal "Mediation cabal" process. No one needs to specifically sign up for this or be an "official participant," you can just dive in and speak your mind (civility, of course, is encouraged). For anyone who wants to participate, or just watch, please set Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-12-05 Naming conventions (television) on your watchlists.
This entire process has turned out to be quite the education on Wikipedia dispute resolution techniques! I'd still very much like to avoid ArbCom, but if all else fails, it's a last resort. Be warned though that ArbCom is extremely formal, extremely time-consuming (it could take months) and can be very emotionally-draining on all parties. So, I really strongly recommend that we do everything possible to avoid it, and give mediation a good faith effort. -- Elonka 18:41, 5 December 2006 (UTC)