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The mention of Lyons led me to look up the context in WP:NCGN.
Should we make this point here, instead of having our specific guidelines appeal to ENGVAR? (Some other example than Lyons would be appropriate to the wider scope here.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:57, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
Is it necessary to have so much detail about the fauna and flora guidance here? Can we replace it with just the links to the flora and fauna NC's, perhaps with a very concise summary? (And if anyone says this is something to do with the distinction between policy and guidelines I shall scream...)-- Kotniski ( talk) 13:39, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
I see Born2cycle has introduced
Does this remind anyone of the discussion in Through the Looking Glass summarized here?
Perhaps more importantly, it makes the unempirical assertion that topics always have only one name (otherwise the name is ill-defined). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:11, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
But the point PMAnderson is raising here has nothing to do with reliable sources. It is about whether it is appropriate to refer to "the name", as if every topic is in possession of a referent deserving of having the definite article stuck in front of it. Hesperian 00:27, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
I already made such a fix
here, and Born2cycle seemed to have no objection to it. If Born2cycle objects to "should tell the reader what the corresponding articles are about", and we object to "should indicate what the name of the corresponding article topic is", then perhaps "should indicate the topic of the article" is a reasonable compromise. I would not be averse to "should name or otherwise indicate the topic of the article". I also would not be averse to "should name the topic of the article", since, inevitably, that is what a title does.
Hesperian
00:22, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Back on track now; thankyou. With respect to "Articles titles should name or describe the subject of the article", I believe there is very strong consensus that we should use a name if it is available. This wording might suggest that we go with descriptions if we don't like a name.
Hesperian
01:07, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
I just noticed that we list "recognizable", "easy to find", "precise", "concise", "consistent" and "unique", but not "accurate". Don't we try to ensure that the title of the article actually is the name of what the article's about? Is that covered under precision? Thoughts? - GTBacchus( talk) 10:36, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
This has been brought up quite a few times. I think there is something very important here, else I wouldn't have repeatedly raised the Metallica (album)-v-The Black Album example. "Metallica" is the name of the album, and any other name would be wrong. Nonetheless I have been convinced by others that accuracy is a very slippery concept indeed. Usually when we say that one name is more accurate than another, what we mean is that some authority has declared itself in favour of a particular name. In the extreme case, this may be the author of a book, who surely has the moral authority to decide upon its name (but even in this case we might reject it). At the other end of the spectrum we have self-appointed standards bodies who make arbitrary and unilateral decisions about the common names of mammals, and expect everyone else to follow them. If you turn it on its head, the question arises whether we would ever reject a grossly inaccurate name that everyone uses. Arguably we do at gravitation (as opposed to the more common but incorrect "gravity"), but this one example is swamped by the billions of counter-examples: sheoaks are not female oaks; starfish are not fish; and there is nothing French about French Fries. It is this mess that prompted me to start talking about #Endorsed names above. Hesperian 11:29, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
Maybe many people are swayed by the commonness of "Burma", but many people aren't. In my experience as a student and looker-at-maps, Myanmar is more common. It is not cut-and-dry; that's all. Please don't debate the name of that article here.
My only point is that accuracy is a consideration in the minds of editors here. I'm not saying that Burma is more or less accurate, just that a good handful of real, live Wikipedians perceive it to be more accurate, and perceive that to be a consideration that matters. Am I wrong? - GTBacchus( talk) 20:52, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
Then you might be happier in some other project. The first paragraph of one of our core policies says:
That is our fundamental protection against bias and censorship; it is a gamble, but so far a successful one. We have mirrors that choose otherwise; if they are more successful, so be it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:06, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
The fact remains that people often make arguments in naming disputes that are based on perceived correctness. What to do about that is an interesting question. - GTBacchus( talk) 22:19, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
OK, GT, let's look at the progress of edits:
It makes little sense to not call a spade when it screams at you. The objective of calling it is to make it stop, to change behavior, and to encourage what was a cooperative conversation. -- Storm Rider 23:09, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
I have come to the view that "accuracy" is only needed when there is a gap between the name expected by readers on searching for the article, and the name expected after having read the article, and thus informed themselves on the topic.
The problem, then is the wording of our "easy to find" principle: "Good article titles use the term by which readers are most likely to search for the article". This puts way too much emphasis on the initial search terms. If applied in the above cases, we would have to move "University of Oxford" to "Oxford University"; "Metallica (album)" to "The Black Album"; "Banksia sessilis" to "Dryandra sessilis"; and "Canadian Forces Maritime Command" to "Canadian Navy". Such moves would eliminate the initial moment of surprise, when the reader discovers that the title is not what they had expected. But there will be a later moment of surprise, when the now-informed reader learns that our title is not so good after all. Far better to be surprised before you knew anything about the topic, than to read up on the topic and then be surprised.
Therefore what we should be doing here is setting aside the undefinable concept of "accuracy", and instead revising our "easy to find" principle to take this into accoun.
The nice thing about this counter-proposal is that it cannot be deployed in situations where there is a genuine real-world naming dispute. The Macedonia naming disputers would be able to take up "accuracy" and use it as a weapon, by claiming that their preferred name is more "accurate" than the alternative(s). But so long as Wikipedia continues to cover the dispute in an accurate and even-handed manner, as it must, it is not possible to argue that informed readers will walk away from the article with a consistent view of what the title should be.
Hesperian 23:44, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
In each case, if the title is at the name most likely to be expected and searched for name by most, then the title is not only good, but ideal.
The very idea that there is some kind of objective criteria for determining the best or most accurate name, other than which is most commonly used, is fundamentally flawed. Names are just that, names. There is no right or wrong. There is no name that is more or less "accurate". The only criteria that should matter is which name is the name most commonly used to refer to the topic in question. That, and only that, is reason to use it as the title. What relevance is there when some probably obscure document or "reliable source" declares the "official" name to be this or that?
Names evolve, and Wikipedia should simply reflect the current most commonly used name for each topic covered. Trying to be more sophisticated than that results in a guaranteed quagmire of contention and ambiguity.
So, let us go with the most commonly used name, as best as we can, and be done with it. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 00:13, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
So which name would you go with in the following situation, assuming for the sake of the argument that my numbers are accurate?
Article name | Percentage of users preferring this name | |
---|---|---|
When searching for the article | After having read the article | |
Metallica (album) | 10% | 90% |
The Black Album | 90% | 10% |
You are of course at liberty to deny the availability of such numbers, but I'd like to hear which name you would support in this hypothetical situation all the same.
Hesperian 00:46, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
H, I love the way you presented this problem. Until the article has had enough influence in the public at large to change the name most commonly used to refer to the topic of the article, the title should continue to reflect the name currently used most commonly. So, in your example, at least for now, I'd go with the The Black Album. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 01:08, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Now I'm asking a question. Namely: What is your "counter-proposal", in a few words? - GTBacchus( talk) 06:31, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Okay, I'm ready now. I didn't realise it when I started this section, but my proposal, in a few words, is restore the guidance that we follow usage in reliable sources.
The "easy to find" principle tells us to use the name that readers will use to search for the article. This puts way too much emphasis on the names used by people in ignorance of the relevant facts. I'm much more interested in the name that readers will prefer after they have read the article and become well-informed. People will search for "The Black Album", but they'll hopefully learn something from reading our article, namely the fact that the album is self-titled, and they'll then expect the article title to be "Metallica (album)". People will search for "Oxford University", but by the time they have read the first six words they will fully support the title "University of Oxford". This is what people mean when they say a name is "correct" or "accurate": they mean that the name is preferred by people who are in possession of the relevant facts.
It would be great to say "Use the name preferred by people who know what they are talking about", but, in accordance with "verifiability not truth", I think this would have to be rephrased as "Use the name preferred in reliable sources". On comprehending this, I was about to withdraw my counter-proposal and bow out gracefully, when I discovered that the "follow usage in reliable sources" guidance has been removed. This is not acceptable. I know from personal experience that this is a basic principle of naming in many parts of Wikipedia. Hesperian 06:49, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
As to claims by WhatamIdoing above that preferring common usage means:
PMAnderson pointed out in a summary comment that some titles are descriptive, not names. Well, yeah, like List of Blah. But I think it's reasonably accurate to say that that is only when there is no name for the article topic. That is, with the conditional "Whenever possible, ...", it's true that titles should reflect the name of the topic. If the topic has no name, then, obviously, the title should be something that reasonably describes the topic. But, that should only be true (with perhaps a per article exception here or there) for topics that have no names.
And I noted that all this begs the question of WHAT name the title should indicate. Here the leading candidates seem to be:
As I said above, the distinction is moot in many if not most cases, for the criteria often produce the same result. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 01:12, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
(@B2c) With respect to your first point, we all seem to agree that we use a name if one exists. The issue PMA raises above is whether that guidance needs to be in the lead. Personally I think it does, though not necessarily in the very first sentence. With respect to your second point, it is indeed begging the question of what name the title should indicate. The whole point of much of this rewrite is to beg that question, because observation of naming decisions across Wikipedia and over several years leads inevitably to the conclusion that there is no single answer to that question. There are multiple principles at work here, and where different principles suggest different names, that is resolved by consensus. Hesperian 01:22, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
(more @ B2c) I was wandering through Wikipedia:Perennial proposals a little while ago, and I noticed an entry entitled Define reliable sources. The reason given for the rejection of this proposal is "Assessing the reliability of sources requires sound editorial judgment, not strict adherence to a list of rules." This captures well my view on article titles. Choosing the best article title requires sound editorial judgment, not strict adherence to a list of rules. Hesperian 03:07, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
After much reflection, I think the foundation of this policy is one constraint and two goals.
Constraint: Each article must have a unique name.
Goal: Choose a title that conveys the topic to the reader.
Goal: Choose a title that conveys that the article content can be trusted.
And that's it. The other two things we've been throwing around are red herrings:
Red herring: use the most common name according to usage in reliable sources.
Red herring: Follow the principle of least surprise.
Hesperian 00:45, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
"Choose a title that conveys the topic to the reader." is not a goal because I can choose a title in French (or Latin) which conveys the topic to the reader, but that is not a "goal". What is a goal is to "choose the most meaningful title that conveys a the topic to the reader". how do choose such a name? why by looking to see what reliable sources in English use. -- PBS ( talk) 11:55, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
The mind likes seeing patterns even when they are not there (eg the canals on Mars). It is not a good idea to promote consistency along side common name and precision on this policy page, as it can be used to undermine both. I have used "Nazi Germany occupation of ..." as an example before because consistency would encourage its use, even when "German occupation of ..." or "Occupation of ..." would be sufficient (depending on the country different precision is need if the name is to be unambiguous). The article name should be precise but unambiguous. -- PBS ( talk) 08:32, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
On WP:Naming conventions the text in the section of policy now headed Use Common name has been significantly changed. All reference to exceptions to the use of the most Common names, as set out in the various individual naming conventions, has been removed. The policy originally read:
It has been amended by a number of editors to read:
Does the removal of exceptions to "Use Common name" from the policy page have agreement? Xan dar 21:24, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
So, on topic, I agree that this page is for articulating principles, and that we need to make sure it doesn't look like law that lawyers think they can quote. Wikipedia's best practices are determined by consensus in specific cases, and then abstracted to policies. "Exceptions" (bad term to use) are examples of places where there is a consensus to do something differently in one area than elsewhere. This sort of agreement can be perfectly valid, so long as it incorporates community input, so it is not a local consensus of a few editors.
I'm not a fan of any sentence that uses the language of "exceptions" and "precedence" or "trumping". I don't think we should be promoting the legalistic notion of "policy > guideline". Taking the legalistic language out of the policy is by no means a negation of the non-legalistic underlying idea. If someone tries to enforce what's written on this page as law — in either direction: saying that specific agreements can trump COMMONNAME or that COMMONNAME can trump specific agreements — then we need to patiently explain to them the principles set out at WP:WIARM. - GTBacchus( talk) 21:26, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
Leave out the disputed sentence. As pointed out, the new structure of the page means it is no longer needed, since it is now perfectly clear that the common name principle is one of several. There is no more need for an "except where..." clause in that place than there is in any other section of this page.-- Kotniski ( talk) 10:18, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
You're right that "verifiable reliable source" is a crime against the English language. I thought we killed that last week sometime, but it seems to have reappeared. That's something that's actually easier to fix than to complain about; I can only assume you've done so.
As for "optimized for readers over editors", that's an even older principle that I remember reading in our policies back in '03. It means titling articles so that readers can find what they want, and aren't confused when they get there. Optimizing for editors would mean giving articles whatever title we're most likely to put double square brackets around. That whole concept is a bit moot however, because of redirects, as has been remarked recently on this talk page. - GTBacchus( talk) 05:19, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
As for "name articles in accordance with", I tried to reword most of those to "articles are generally named in accordance with". I strongly disagree with writing the policies prescriptively. People are already too inclined to take them that way, and IAR is very, very, very, very important. - GTBacchus( talk) 11:27, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
The only thing clear to me about that dispute is that it's not 100% clear and obvious which name is more common. I've seen quite good cases made for both sides, and that's why the dispute has ranged so long and so bitterly. The biggest impediment to productive dialogue is denying that there are good points to be made on the other side, or to claim that it's somehow clear or obvious.
To generalize back to what this page is about, Burma/Myanmar is an excellent example of a disputed title that lies in a gray area and where we have to take all of our naming principles into consideration and let consensus work itself out. In this particular case, I don't see that happening anytime soon, so the name will remain in dispute. Fact of life. - GTBacchus( talk) 10:28, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
There seems to be a lot of misinformation being pushed here. Let's get this straightened out. Here is the diff. [1] My take on this is that the overriding principle "use the most common name" has been joined by four other principles of equal (or rather, unspecified) standing. With respect to the wording of the common names section, it has been changed from
"Except where other accepted Wikipedia naming conventions give a different indication, articles should be named in accordance with what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity. The names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors, and for a general audience over specialists. Wikipedia determines the recognizability of a name primarily by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject."
to
"A good title will name the article with what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize – usually the most commonly used name verifiably used in reliable sources in English. The names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors, and for a general audience over specialists."
This is a general softening of the language, reflecting the fact that this is one of several principles to be taken into consideration, not a rule to be wielded against non-compliant conventions. It is important to see the removal of the "exceptions" clause in this broader context. Specifically, it is important to understand that reinserting it will again appear to elevate "use the most common name" to the status of a "rule" that cannot be broken unless an explicit exception is made; this would mean less freedom for specific conventions, not more.
But don't take my word for it. And certainly don't take Xandar's word for it. Look at the diff for yourself. Here it is again: [ [2].
Hesperian 03:29, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
Xandar is right that we're discussing naming principles, and not each other. Hesperian - pull your socks up. Leave all ad hominem remarks back at the schoolyard. (Xandar, you see? I'm an equal opportunity bastard when it comes to this stuff.)
So, can you two stay in the lines, or not? We'd all rather get work done, so race each other to be the first to rise to the occasion. That means no more hitting back. Turn the other cheek, and talk like professionals who can stay on topic. Else, blocks will fly soon. Yes, this counts as a warning to you both. - GTBacchus( talk) 12:37, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
I looks like more changes have been made to the page over the last week than have been made over the last six months. These changes were made by a small number of editors and I find it difficult to believe that all of them carry consensus.
A table of the changes shown by the diff of changes supplied by Hesperian is below:
Text | Status | Link to Consensus | |
---|---|---|---|
A. | "Readers should not have to read into the article to find which of several meanings of the title is the actual subject, but there is no virtue in excess." | Added | WP:Where? |
B. | "Except where other accepted Wikipedia naming conventions give a different indication..." | Removed | WP:Where? |
C. | "Article titles follow standard English text formatting in the case of trademarks, unless the trademarked spelling is demonstrably most common usage in sources independent of the owner of the trademark." | Added | WP:Where? |
D. | "...the current title of a page does not imply either a preference for that name, or that any alternative name is discouraged in the text of articles. Generally, an article's title should not be used as a precedent for the naming of any other articles." | Removed | WP:Where? |
E. | "...the choice of title is not influenced by disputes about whether a name is "right" in a moral sense. Note also that the use of one name as an article title does not preclude the use of alternative names in appropriate contexts in the text of articles." | Added | WP:Where? |
F. | "...the current title of a page does not imply either a preference for that name..." | Removed | WP:Where? |
G. | "...or that any alternative name is discouraged in the text of articles." | Removed | WP:Where? |
H. | "Note also that the use of one name as an article title does not preclude the use of alternative names in appropriate contexts in the text of articles." | Added | WP:Where? |
I. | "Generally, an article's title should not be used as a precedent for the naming of any other articles." | Removed | WP:Where? |
J. | "When there is no other basis for a decision, the name given the article by its creator should prevail." | Removed | WP:Where? |
K. | "Where articles have descriptive names, they are neutrally worded." | Formerly "must be" | WP:Where? |
L. | "Another exception are printable characters in redirect pages." | Removed | WP:Where? |
M. | "Occasionally, these subsidiary pages—if they contain content that is only relevant as an elaboration of a shorter paragraph on the main page—can have more complex page names..." | Removed | WP:Where? |
N. | "The present convention for articles providing more detail on a given topic is using the {{ Main|<toppage>}} and {{ Details|<subpage>}} templates, in accordance with Wikipedia:Summary style, and the guidance on how to avoid POV content forks. Such templates are placed under a section header, each instance of these templates providing a link to a subpage." | Removed | WP:Where? |
O. | Criteria: Easy to find, Precise, Concise, Consistent, Unique | Added | WP:Where? |
--rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid ( coṁrá) 20:56, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
As for "policy is policy", WP:IAR is policy. Wikipedia is fundamentally not a rules-based system. This is the place to discuss that if we're going to be alleging that this policy embodies some kind of hard-and-fast rules that have to be edited with the utmost of care. Contempt for rules is a healthy approach to Wikipedia, and I don't need the Village Pump to tell me that.
Finally, as for BRD, you've missed the first 11 stops on that train. Many bold edits have been reverted and discussed. Even better than BRD is 0RR. Don't go backwards when we can instead tack, like a boat sailing into the wind. That's already going on, and I look forward to your active participation below, where the discussion that you're requesting has been going on for days.
Please note that we are in almost total agreement here, except that I think time spent asking people to stop making bold edits is better spent discussing those edits. - GTBacchus( talk) 09:02, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
It makes me very angry to think that I have wasted a month in deep and thorough discussion about this, only to have someone come in late and revert it all on the false premise that the changes were made "without discussion". At this point, the only change that has been made without discussion is the wholesale revert. Hesperian 23:29, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Comment This debate is incomprehensible. Some editors are arguing about fine points and have expanded the issue to more points than the stated question. I am in favour of the principle that article names should reflect common names most recognisable by average members of the population. This does not seem to be the case currently. For example, in a situation I am familiar with, the US navy has a convention of naming ships by (nearly) unique codes and ship articles tend to say USS America BB99. Fine for American ships, perhaps (or perhaps not, I am not american and do not know if any american would recognise such codes unless an expert) but although Royal navy ships have (non-unique) code numbers, no one in the street would recognise any of them. Yet this is used to distinguish different ships with the same common name. The obvious solution is to use construction/launch date, but a DATE. Something the man on the street can easily understand and which helps identify the correct vessel by era. This is even the common standard amongst references. Yet somehow the american naval convention means that non-unique naval designators are being used to disambiguate ships in other navies, such as the UK one ('for consistency'). How does this mess come to happen under which version of policy? I vote for a policy giving a binding convention on the adoption of user recognisable names and expressly deprecating specialist ones. Sandpiper ( talk) 00:22, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
Neutral I like the text the way it was before, but I don't mind the change. Like GTBacchus said, we need to get out of the wikilayering mindset of breaches, exceptions, etc. We're not trying to lay down the law, but describe current practice here in a way that people can easily refer to. Making a list of principles seems to make sense as long as the wording is agreed to by consensus. And I agree with Sandpiper, this debate is really hard to follow. -- Kraftlos ( Talk | Contrib) 09:25, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
There have been a number of important changes since the start of September that have made their way into document, seemingly without having emerged from common practice or discussion. (I may be wrong about this, if I am I will be happy to be find out so.) I've copied four such changes below and moved the disputed tag to the top of the page while they are under discussion. Note that I have already attempted to restore some of the previous content (or the gist of it) and this edit was subsequently reverted.
The removal of exceptions to "common name" has been discussed above. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid ( coṁrá) 18:53, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Articles titles should name or describe the subject of the article, and make Wikipedia easy to use. Article titles do this if they are:
Easy to find – Good article titles use the term by which readers are most likely to look for the article and to which editors will most naturally link from other articles. In determining what this term is, we follow the usage of reliable sources. As part of this, the name chosen for an article, while in common use, should be neither vulgar nor pedantic; readers will not expect such names.
- Precise. Good article titles are only as precise as necessary to indicate the name of the topic unambiguously. The scope of articles does change; sometimes article titles must be updated accordingly.
- Concise – Good article titles are short; this makes editing, typing, and searching for articles easier. This principle limits the extent to which precision is desirable; this is also one reason we use names (where they exist) in preference to descriptions.
- Consistent – Similar articles are generally given similar titles. This also falls under the Principle of Least Astonishment: readers should not wonder why one article of a class or category has a different format from the others – unless the difference is beneficial to the encyclopedia. Consistency is often achieved by specific naming conventions for specific types of articles.
In addition, titles are constrained by unavoidable technical restrictions, including the necessity that titles be:
- Unique – Wikipedia's software does not allow two distinct articles to have exactly the same title. (It is technically possible to make articles appear to have the same title, but this is never done, as it would be highly confusing to readers, and cause editors to make incorrect links.)
Since these are distinct criteria, they can conflict with one another; in such cases, article names are determined by consensus. Consensus on naming in specific fields, or with respect to particular problems, are stated and explained in the guidelines below. When no consensus exists, it is established through discussion, always with the above principles in mind.
These "criteria" seem to have come out of no where. (They were added with the comment " how's this?"). I'm concerned that they appear to supplant the established policy (viz. Use common names, Be precise when necessary, Use English words, etc.) with a hard set of "criteria". The established policy is more rounded and understanding of the fact that one size does not fit all.
Furthermore, the "criteria" admit that they can "conflict with one another". First, this makes then redundant as criteria and so not helpful to an editor coming here for advice. Second, when they do, the advice given is to determine the article title by consensus - not to read this page to know what policy is. Doesn't this nullify the rest of the page.
It seems to me that that "criteria" try to weasel their way in as policy to the detriment of the established policy. That the appear to have just popped in without discussion, only makes it worse. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid ( coṁrá) 18:53, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
The text I replaced said: "Generally, the objective is to give articles unambiguous titles that readers will most easily recognize, where recognizability is determined by what reliable sources in English call the subject. The principles and conventions listed here set out in detail how that objective is achieved." Where in there do you see "accuracy", "non-offensiveness" or "self-identification"? What edit are you talking about?
Get in the trenches and help move some articles, then tell us what's what. - GTBacchus( talk) 22:46, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
The remaining examples do indeed reflect self-identification, but it is mediated by broader usage: Xandar is saying We use "Indigenous Australians" because Indigenous Australians identify as "Indigenous Australians"; but in fact this misses an intermediate step. It would be more accurate to say We use "Indigenous Australians" because the Australian government and the Australian media and Australian publishers on matters related to Indigenous affairs all use "Indigenous Australians" because Indigenous Australians identify as "Indigenous Australians". Therefore there is no need for "self-identification" in order to explain the names; we are simply following broader usage in reliable sources. Hesperian 03:55, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
The problem is that these principles have no application to how most articles were named. While you can certainly find examples in which some of them were applied, often most if not all of them were not applied. The vast majority of articles have topics with a single clear and obvious commonly used name that is either unambiguous with respect to topics covered in Wikipedia, or that topic is the primary use of that name, and so that name is the title of that article. All of these principles only begin to apply to the minority of articles for which all of the above is not true, yet the current revision implies that they apply to all articles. This needs to be addressed. I'm not sure exactly how it should be addressed, but I suspect that something akin to my simple algorithm suggestion above would be a move in the right direction. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 22:19, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Thank you for using the word "principles" Born2cycle. They're not "criteria" - I see that I used that word - a poor choice - thanks for the correction, however obtusely delivered. They're certainly not "hard"(?). Construing these consistently-used principle s as "hard criteria" and "one size fits all", is bizarre, and contrary to the spirit of policy here. These ideas, as noted above by PMAnderson, who works in Requested Moves, are how articles really are named. I wrote them down based on actual experience in the field working in Requested Moves for years alongside PMA, completing thousands of requests. I also made that edit per a specific request on this talk page to do so. "Why don't you jump in and help us edit it GT?" "Ok, how's this?" Without discussion, my fanny.
Obviously, when names are unambiguous, there's no problem, and no need to appeal to naming conventions. Everyone knows that Asia is called "Asia", and nobody is suggesting that we rename that article.
Now, Rannpháirtí anaithnid claims above that these "criteria" - which they are not - are "supplanting" established policy such as COMMONNAME PRECISE, UE. However, that's precisely what these principles say. Use common names, in English. Is that not what's recognizable? I don't care what you call it, "Recognizable" or "Commonly used in English". The point is, it's what we do. "Be precise when necessary" - which I'd correct to "Be as precise as necessary" is what I (cryptically?) called "Precision".
Moving on in Rannpháirtí's remarks, how conflicting with each other makes principles "redundant" seems to be a crime against English. "Redundant" means overlapping, repeating each other; not conflicting. That's the opposite of what "redundant" means. I have no idea what you were trying to say there.
I'll repeat what I said to Xandar, Rannpháirtí - get some actual experience working with article naming, and then you tell us what the community really does. Until then, you're speaking from ignorance: Ignorance of community practice, and extreme ignorance of how policy works here. "Hard criteria" - what a load of rubbish. Do your homework. - GTBacchus( talk) 22:46, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
With respect to the claim that these have come out of nowhere, please see Wikipedia:Naming conventions/Proposal/Draft, a draft that was written back in February, which articulates an almost identical set of principles. This came about towards the end of around four months of discussion about whether, and how, the naming convention could be reconciled with the naming guidelines on plant taxa. If follows that the changes made this month have been under discussion for a year now.
I don't mind us going over some of this ground again for the benefit of those who have come in late, but it would be a great help if latecomers would acknowledge that they have missed a great deal of discussion and may not be aware of consensus, rather than making baseless claims that discussion has not occurred and/or consensus does not exist. Hesperian 03:30, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Readers should not have to read into the article to find which of several meanings of the title is the actual subject, but there is no virtue in excess.
The addition of this advice seems assume that all article with titles that are similar will be dabbed using a dab page. In cases where primary topics exist or where one of the topics can be placed at an alternative title, this is not the case. Hat links are the established means to dab article titles where the title of one article may refer to something else. Common practice is not to require all articles be placed at an completely unambiguous title. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid ( coṁrá) 18:53, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Old version:
Except where other accepted Wikipedia naming conventions give a different indication, title an article using the most common name of the person or thing that is the subject of the article (making the title unique when necessary as described in the following section and in the disambiguation guideline. Where articles have descriptive names, the given name must be neutrally worded.
New version:
A good title will name the article with what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize and associate with the topic in question; we generally follow the most commonly used name verifiably used in reliable sources in English.
The established version referred to exceptions in other naming conventions, the new way makes no reference to the fact that there are always exceptions and nuances. "Common name" seems to have been put to the wayside in favour of now using what "the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize and associate with the topic in question"? The new wording seems to overly complicate quite a simple thing. Gone too is the admission that it is not always possible to use what "the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize and associate with the topic in question". It also gave a positive instruction ("...title an article using...") rather than a simple value judgement ("a good title will"). --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid ( coṁrá) 18:53, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
I tend to agree that "except where other naming conventions indicate otherwise" is good, and should be embodied in the page in some way. I don't care how, but it's true. Certain domains within Wikipedia have their own conventions. Royalty, Japanese names, Flora, Ammunition... the list goes on. - GTBacchus( talk) 23:02, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
I don't think the replacement useful, and am prepared to change back to the prior, more stable wording. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 03:25, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
When there is no other basis for a decision, the name given the article by its creator should prevail.
The joy of this was that it always allowed for an emergency stop button. Where no consensus for a change existed, the we could default to the title given by the article creators. A common sense solution where no logical solution existed. Taking out the emergency stop seems to assume that there always will be (or always should be) a definitive answer for what to title an article. Reality is that there is not. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid ( coṁrá) 18:53, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Consistent – Similar articles are generally given similar titles. This also falls under the Principle of Least Astonishment: readers should not wonder why one article of a class or category has a different format from the others – unless the difference is beneficial to the encyclopedia. Consistency is often achieved by specific naming conventions for specific types of articles.
As I have said several times I think that to have this is a bad idea. I am not against it appearing in some of the guidelines as a way to clarify some areas, (Eg in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles), but it should not be in the policy.
Many of the guidelines like WP:NC (names and titles) were developed before reliable sources was put into this policy page, and as such were sensible workarounds to the problems of non reliable sources being used to determine names, as in "Bloody Mary" for Queen Mary I.
I think it fundamentally undermines many of the other principles that are listed on this page. If this goes through we end up back in arguments about whether "Military of the United Kingdom" is the correct title or "armed forces of the United Kingdom," or "British Armed Forces". For a long time all most all articles about military forces of a country were named "Military of ..." even when the reliable sources did not use that name because they were a set. Another example is "Occupation of ... by Nazi Germany" whether or not Germany had ever occupied the country before " Occupation of Czechoslovakia by Nazi Germany" or if the country had ever been occupied (eg " Occupation of the Channel Islands by Nazi Germany". Who is to say that such consistence is desirable, particularly as "Nazi Germany" carries a political connotations and is unnecessary unless Germany occupied a country more than once eg "poor little Belgium".
We should not be promoting in the lead of the policy a suggestion that descriptive names should be used in preference to the names commonly used in reliable sources, because it fits in with some editors idea of neat and tidy categories. (I have for example seen in the past that the article Bernard Montgomery, 1st Viscount Montgomery of Alamein should be renamed to Bernard Montgomery because the length of the article title his name spoils the format of some of the categories into which he was included (after all non of the American generals who fought in Europe had such long names). It could be argued that as this is part of policy it overrides the suggestions in WP:NC (names and titles), and if Monty is in a category of Allied commanders for the European Theater his article should have a name without the title as it will be less astonishing to those who look in the category. Now those sensible editors reading this will probably say that is ridiculous, but I put it to you that the muppets will try to use it to insist that article names should fit a pattern ... . -- PBS ( talk)
I happen to think that Hesperian is incorrect because the WP:NC (flora) guideline is the only one which starts out from a premise that ignores common names as used in reliable sources (whether that be a Latin or something else). Instead it states "Scientific names are to be used as page titles in all cases except the following ...", and the editors who cite that guideline have been resistant to changing it so that it starts from common names and then builds upon that to tackle problems that are specific to a flora.
However I want to lay that aside for the moment, and consider the wording not in relation to the guidelines, but what I have described as "free range" naming sets such as "Military of ..." and "Occupation of ... by Nazi Germany". Having a bullet point on "Consistent" that suggests that free range name sets are desirable, when it is not desirable if we are serious about using sources to determine the names of articles. At the very least the wording needs to be altered so that it only applies to extensions to the general conventions in specific conventions and guidelines. -- PBS ( talk) 08:58, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Another area where the current wording causes problems is with national varieties of English for example for Orange (colour) see Talk:Orange (colour)#Requested move 2. -- PBS ( talk) 09:09, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Consistency in a subset of articles, that allows for articles within that subset to be named consistently with other articles in that subset, but inconsistently with articles in the rest of Wikipedia, is not consistency, but absurdity. It's using the rationalization of consistency in order to defend inconsistency. Thus we have fauna consistent with the rest of Wikipedia (using English common names) but inconsistent with flora (which uses Latin scientific names). We have U.S. cities using city, state predisambiguation to be "consistent" with each other, except it's inconsistent with how most cities in the world are named, and even inconsistent with how some well-known cities in the U.S. are named (like Boston, New York City and Los Angeles), not to mention most other topics like film and TV episode titles which are only disambiguated per the specific naming conventions when required. This idea of subset "consistency" is anything but consistent. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 20:34, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
But the main thing is that the arguments made are based on the consistently applied naming policy, guidelines and conventions, and not on special case guidelines that are inconsistent with, or override, the broader/general policy, conventions and guidelines. More specific guidelines should "fill in the gaps", so to speak, as needed, not contradict what the more general stuff calls for.
Now, I support WP:IAR in certain special case per article situations, of course, but see no basis, certainly not in the name of "consistency", for a specific guideline that applies to an entire subset of articles and specifically calls for editor behavior that is inconsistent with the rest of Wikipedia. That's not consistency, that's absurdity. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 21:47, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
What I see as absurdity is specific practices that are inconsistent with general practices justified as consistency!
We should be able to document what the practices are without referring to inconsistent practices as being consistent. Yet "consistent" is the name we're giving to this principle of inconsistency. Absurd! -- Born2cycle ( talk) 23:39, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
(reset indent)
If you really want to accurately describe current practice in some corners of Wikipedia, the section currently states:
What it should state:
-- Born2cycle ( talk) 23:45, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
All of this is irrelevant. If there is consensus in some areas of Wikipedia to use absurd names (as seems to be the case), then we must document that absurdity.
Hesperian
02:01, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
I find changing practice first and policy pages later to be more efficient. YMMV. - GTBacchus( talk) 02:22, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
My problem is with situations in which a name is justified by "consistency" which is inconsistent with broader WP naming policy, guidelines and conventions. Big difference. The former is rational, the latter is absurd. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 17:52, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
<--I agree with Born2cycle last statement on this issue. For example one can only justify the use of numerals and countries in the naming of monarchs because it is in a guideline and it is a method used in many reliable sources. We do not tend to use numerals on pre-conquest English kings because reliable sources do not. If we did we would end up with Edward the Confessor as Edward III of England an Edward I of England would be Edward IV of England (or some other numeral). We would be internally consistent, but it would a consistency that did not match reliable sources. There is also a case for using internal consistency if we do not have access to many reliable sources on a topic,(eg some obscure (to English sources) Russian count during the Napoleonic wars), that internal consistency may help editors find the subject without confusing the reader, and in that case make linking easier, and indirectly aids the reader in finding the article.
Who are your "lot of people feel very strongly that it should continue to happen"? I don't mind coming up with wording that when reliable sources are not clear on a name, if it helps deciding on the most easily recognize name then consistency should be considered, but we should not promote internal consistency as an alternative to using the name which is commonly used in reliable sources. -- PBS ( talk) 12:33, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
This discussion is too scattered and spread out. As a result many editors are finding it difficult to follow and as a result consensus may be there for some changes but only from those who are making this discussion into a full time job. Let's try and find a way to better manage this so that more of us can intelligently follow the proposals and get more participation. Vegaswikian ( talk) 18:29, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
I wonder if it's something that could be addressed with a technical patch of some kind. When article editing and talk page action are happening in parallel, what's a good way to visualize what's going on? - GTBacchus( talk) 01:55, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Variuos paragraphs on this page seem to have Convention: written in front of them. Does this serve any purpose? To me it looks a bit silly.-- Kotniski ( talk) 12:21, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
ALl right, tell me which of my changes you have some reason for reverting, and what the reason is. The explanation about summaries makes no sense to me, since most of the specific guideline pages are not summarized here, and there seems no reason to select certain random ones among them, select certain random information from them (like using o umlaut instead of o ogonek in Norse names, or the arcane project-internal stuff about stubs), and putting them on this page as "summaries". Since you haven't explained why you reverted the other changes I made, I presume you just did so since it's easier to click the undo button once. I wouldn't make a fuss about it, but you've been doing this kind of thing over and over and over again on this page, for a very long time.-- Kotniski ( talk) 11:36, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
GTBacchus, in the good old days when men were men and quiche eaters had yet to find Wikipedia, there were no real differences between policy and guidelines. But in recent years there has been a clear distinction between policy and guidelines, because unless one wishes to spend one's time on nothing else the half dozen or so main policies is more than enough to cover.
This is a policy page called "Naming conventions". Unfortunately there are also dozens of guidelines to this policy page. Most of these seem to have come into existence as workarounds to the problems of common names before common names were defined as only being those found in reliable sources (Eg " Bloody Mary"). Given that this policy probably has more guidelines than any other policy, it is essential that a clear distinction is made between policy and the guidelines. I think that many of these guidelines are now redundant thanks to the addition of reliable sources to this policy, but they retain their usefulness as a guideline for a specific area. By this I mean if one considering creating a new article on an aeroplane, then Wikipedia:Naming conventions (aircraft) provides a useful brief description of how to name an aircraft with examples relating to that specific field. BUT with so many guidelines, it is helpful if the policy set the bounds to what the guidelines say and a nutshell type sentence or two for each guideline, helps in this process. It also helps if one comes to the policy and needs to see if a particular guideline only describes an area or if it contains supplemental rules for a specific area as does Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles). That is a case were there should be more detail in the form of a convention not less. -- PBS ( talk) 17:01, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
And back to the original (though apparently quite minor) question, PBS - can you explain in loud and ringing tones what you think "convention" means? Because we just don't get it. Your latest edit summary says "this page contains the conventions", implying you don't think the other "Naming conventions (xxx)" pages contain conventions? But anyone can see that they do, surely, unless you think conventions has some unusual meaning here? And againm, what is the significance of those paragraphs marked "Convention:" on this page? I'm sure this is no big deal, but having these misunderstandings unresolved is starting to obstruct the process of editing these pages.-- Kotniski ( talk) 12:27, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
PBS seems to have done much the same with "naming convention policy" and "naming convention guidelines": he seems to have unilaterally decided that the unqualified phrase "naming convention" means "naming convention policy", never "naming convention guidelines", and that this distinction must be preserved by rooting out and destroying and and all non-conforming uses of the phrase. This is the impression I get; I am not certain of it, because, despite asking PBS about this several times, I have not yet received an answer that I understood. Hesperian 13:51, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
Oh this really is the limit - instead of answering the question, PBS has simply put the offending words back, despite everyone else's being against them. This isn't being bold, it's sticking the requisite number of fingers up at consensus and discussion, and just saying "this is my page, keep off". That is, unless you really do have a good reason for doing this that you're just about to tell us... -- Kotniski ( talk) 16:30, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
My point is that it's not worth getting upset over. Errors will be fixed. Consensus will be reflected. The page will be stable again. Just keep a sense of perspective, that's all. I was reponding to your "Oh this really is the limit". No it's not. Have a cup of tea, or maybe a beer. - GTBacchus( talk) 17:23, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
IAR is policy, and your opinion that it is somehow a relic is a disappointing indicator that you don't know what's going on. Stop hurting wikipedia with this bureaucratic mindset. Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy, and you are duty-bound as an administrator to stop helping the enemy: the Rule-Lawyers.
All of that aside, simply labeling the things with "Convention:" DOES NOT COMMUNICATE EFFECTIVELY. If none of us could figure out what the hell you were talking about, why will readers? If you're going to implement a term of art that is not already well-understood, then explain yourself, man! - GTBacchus( talk) 16:43, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Your limited interpretation of IAR is disappointingly myopic. You're simply wrong about that policy. It is for more than just the occasional "oops the rules are saying something silly; skip it". It's fundamental to every single edit. - GTBacchus( talk) 21:12, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Can someone explain this reversion? It was from
to
What is particularly puzzling is the edit summary: whether actual change of policy occured is not a question of fact. How is determining whether some article has been stable under a given title a change of policy? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:16, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
There seem to be divergent ideas in the air about how quickly and dynamically we should be editing policy pages. Again, that's just an impression. - GTBacchus( talk) 01:48, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
"...Whether stability has existed, and when, is a question of fact..." (among others) seems a thoroughly undesirable insertion to me. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 03:46, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Nonsensical: whether something is stable for a certain amount of time may be factual, extrapolating something like that to "stable" (in general) is not factual. We don't need such gibberish. And it is all fairly unrelated to the core of the guidance you were messing with. So whether or not something can be perceived "factually stable" is unrelated to the determination the guidance tries to make in this instance.
In sum, please quit wasting our time. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 04:28, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
The wording you proposed was clear AND nonsensical. Please quit wasting our time. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 04:40, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
The wording you proposed was clear AND nonsensical. "Whether stability has existed" is about stability in general (so, don't pretend otherwise). Stability in general AND stability for slices of time are BOTH unrelated to the part of the guidance you were messing with. So, discussion of stability (whether in general or for limited periods of time) is useless for the part of the guidance you tampered with. Please quit wasting our time. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 04:40, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Hesperian, sorry to disagree with your analysis "...discussion on this page has proceeded in an unusually constructive manner". So, better to look at yourself than pointing at others isn't it? -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 04:57, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Getting back to the issue here, I agree with Francis that the question "whether stability has existed, and when", is problematic. It is a bit like asking for what values of a discontinuous function is that function continuous. The answer can only be "everywhere except at the discontinuities". One might just as well argue that an article title is stable at all times except when it is being moved. Any attempt to come up with a more sensible definition of "stable" yields a question of interpretation, not "fact".
Hesperian
05:59, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
False argument: someone who wants to discredit a certain range of guidance might attempt to commit people to lose time in a WP:POINT approach. I'm not saying that is *necessarily* the case here, I'm only saying that "Obviously nobody considers their own contributions to be a waste of time" is a false argument. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 06:21, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
I don't know what "false argument" means here. It's not clear to me whether you're accusing me of something or not. I'm not trying to commit any kind of fallacy; I just don't see anypoint is saying "please stop wasting our time" over and over again. I don't see that as a productive or effective rhetorical technique. I see it as inflammatory and distracting; I don't think that's you intention. I'd rather talk about WP:NC here than about logical fallacies. What do I need to take back to get back on topic? - GTBacchus( talk) 12:23, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Someone who supports the "last stable version" wording, please explain to me a way of detemining "stable version" that will work in 80% of cases. I'm willing to leave 20% to consensus to figure out. - GTBacchus( talk) 06:05, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Which "stable version" wording: PMA's? -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 06:21, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
As far as I can tell, the two versions give the same guidance for titles that have recently been stable, and the same guidance for titles that have recently been unstable. The difference is that the old version allowed for a third case, where it is not clear whether or not the title has recently been stable. PMA's new version denies the validity of this third case.
I agree with (the thrust of) PMA's version. If we're going to have a third case for "unclear" , then we might as well also have a fourth case for "unclear whether clear or unclear." And a fifth case for "unclear whether clear or unclear whether clear or unclear". I'm not being trite here. Most arguments over content devolve into meta-arguments over whether or not an consensus has been achieved. The "If it is unclear" guidance merely replaces discussion about whether the title has recently been stable, with discussion about whether it is unclear whether the title has recently been stable. Better to bite the bullet and advise discussion in the first place. Hesperian 06:23, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
All that remains is the question whether we should provide for the third case. Why do you think we should?
Hesperian 06:57, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
The old text fails to provide for the second case, in which it is clear whether the name has been stable for a long time, and it clearly has not been stable for a long time. It is preferable to decide what the title should be by consensus; but it is in this rare case (has it ever happened?) that we default (because there is nothing else) to the first contributor. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:42, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm struck by a comment made by GTBacchus (sorry if it sounds like I singling you out, GTBacchus): "There seem to be divergent ideas in the air about how quickly and dynamically we should be editing policy pages."
Meanwhile the page itself has the following to say:
Proposals for new naming conventions and guidelines should be advertised at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions, at Requests for comment, the Village Pump, and any related pages. Once a strong consensus has formed, the proposal can be adopted and listed on this page.
New naming conventions for specific categories of articles often arise from WikiProjects.
For a list of current and former proposals, see Proposed naming conventions and guidelines.
Please compare the degree of change between this policy page and the other content-related policy pages over the past calendar month:
There is far too much editing-while-discussing going on. This is a policy page. The content of the page needs to reflect consensus. At present it does not appear to reflect consensus among the handful of editors contributing to this talk page - never mind the community as a whole.
Please let the editing-while-discussing stop now. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid ( coṁrá) 18:09, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
I agree that we don't want to give an impression of broad consensus where none exists. I only want to accurately describe the broad consensus I've observed by working in RM. There are too few of us here to make a dent in that, and you'll never get those thousands of people all to a discussion here - thank God. - GTBacchus( talk) 22:22, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
That stuff about Village Pump, and Policy Proposals... that's all bad advice. It shouldn't be presented as good advice. First of all, it's not very effective (that's an Important Point, and if you would change policy, you want to be effective), and secondly, it goes against our fundamental pillar of IAR. The best way to understand policy pages are that they are records of previous agreements. They're descriptions of de facto policies which are determined in the field by consensus. A legalistic or rule-like understanding of Wikipedia policies is cancer.
The view I am articulating here, while popularly misunderstood, is not some relic of by-gone days, and it's not some kind of abstract noise with no application. It's the correct mind-frame to have with every edit you make to the wiki, and that view is supported by a broad and long-standing consensus. IAR is our first policy, and it is not a joke on any level. - GTBacchus( talk) 22:33, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Consensus is created in the field, by thousands of editors. Those who have observed that consensus attempt to record it here. There is no need to get those thousands of people to "sign off" on what they've done, because they signed by doing.
The process is this: does this page reflect actual consensual practice? If so super; if not, how not? What is actual consensual practice, and how can we better describe it. That's all we ever need to talk about on this page. It's much more concrete and useful than talking about "Editing-while-discussing on policy pages", which is at least 2 steps further removed from the actual project than what we ought to be talking about. - GTBacchus( talk) 22:19, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
We've touched on this topic above, but I would like to revisit it. All topics covered in Wikipedia either have names, or they don't. I think the article naming conventions are substantially different for articles about topics with clear and obvious names than are the conventions for articles about topics that don't have names, and so the titles are really short descriptions. For example, Geography of Brazil is not a name of that topic, but a description of that topic, while Paris is the name of the topic of that article. I think it would helpful for the policy to recognize this distinction, because the principles and rules that apply are really quite different. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 20:30, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
When a topic has an obvious name, especially if that name is unambiguous or that topic has primary use of that name, then that name is used for the title irrespective of whether the name is Recognizable, Easy to find, Precise, Concise and Consistent. Hitting WP:RANDOM for some examples of titles that simply reflect the name of the respective topic: Party America, University for Peace, Bubba Miller, Kråkstad, Colossus Records, Epratuzumab, Saccharina, The Radio Pirates. Playing with WP:RANDOM quickly reveals that the vast majority of WP articles are named like this. To contrast, every few articles has a topic that has no name and so the title is not a name, but descriptive, such as 2001 Asian Men's Volleyball Championship and The assault on Copenhagen. It is only for the latter relatively rare type of title to which all these principles apply. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 14:34, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
The reason the name is used as the title is not because it is recognizable and easy to find, but because it is the name of the topic. That is, the primary principle for naming most articles in WP is to use the name of the topic, period. Only when that fails (because there is no name, or dabbing is required, etc.) do other principles become relevant, including those that inherently also happen apply to obvious names. One way or another I think this fundamental point needs to be reflected in the policy, because all too often the lack of appreciation for this fundamental convention is problematic in naming disputes, and the current wording could be easily used to justify using a description rather than the obvious name for any article for which the topic is not very well known (which is the vast majority of articles in WP). -- Born2cycle ( talk) 17:32, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
So, again, my point is that "recognizable" and all of the other principles listed do not apply to naming the vast majority of WP articles which have a single obvious unambiguous or primary most common topic name; in those cases we simply use that topic name to be the article name (title). Since this is how most articles are named, that should be stated clearly upfront, not as a "by the way" after all the principles that only apply to naming a minority of articles are listed. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 20:11, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
Assault on Copenhagen is an imprecise title. It describes, I see, the events of 1659; but Copenhagen has been assaulted many times: 1368, 1801, 1807, 1813... Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:14, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
One more point about this. It should be noted that one's impression about what naming policy is is going to be quite different if that opinion is formed by looking at discussions about article titles going through WP:RM, rather than, say, looking at article names as they are created, or looking at them via WP:RANDOM. This is because the subset of names that go through WP:RM are by definition controversial or likely to be controversial. If this policy only reflects in writing the principles that tend to be used to resolve those disputes, it's almost certainly not going to reflect how most articles are named (which do not ever go through WP:RM).
I think the current revision currently reflects this WP:RM bias, if you will, and this is manifested by not clearly stating up front the primary naming principle in Wikipedia by which most articles are named: by using the most commonly used name of the topic of the article as the title of the article. It should also be noted that this was up front and clear before the recent changes began, if nothing else by having "Use the most easily recognized name" as the first principle listed in the relatively stable revision. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 23:52, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
I agree with Born2cycle that a preference for names over descriptions dominates these principles rather than emerging from them. Suppose, for example, that we wrote an article on Checkers, Nixon's pet dog. I put it to you that we would title it "Checkers (dog)", even though "Nixon's dog" is more recognisable, arguably easier to find, more precise, and more concise (and consistency has no application here). I am certain that preference for the title that uses the name would be near universal; yet I cannot see anything in the present convention that explains why this is so. Hesperian 01:40, 24 September 2009 (UTC) Yes. Most page moves don't get anywhere near WP:RM. They are discussed on the page in question - if at all. Neither does this article give advice only to those requesting that articles be moved. It is also advice for articles that are being created, and where to create them. Articles created an a less appropriate title, they may never be moved at all. Drawing experience exclusively from WP:RM, suffers from selection bias. This does not mean that there is a deliberate "bias" on the part of those who advocate shaping the article to reflect experience from that forum. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid ( coṁrá) 08:13, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
What we have asked is that you use your outside-of-RM experience to help us edit this policy page. If you'd rather talk about how we're biased than simply correct our bias.... then I don't understand why you were complaining earlier about too much abstract discussion. Can you pick a specific problem on the page and focus on it, or are you going to keep talking about issues 2 or 3 steps removed from policy?
What needs to be fixed on this page now? Please, talk to us about edits. Show the effect of the bias on the actual policy page. Show us, please. - GTBacchus( talk) 22:49, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm interested in your outside-of-RM experience in page titling in non-dispute settings. Can you tell us what it's taught you about consensus, that we're currently missing?
It's interesting that you perceive RM discussions as "forcing discussion to jump between hoops"? Can you explain what this means, and where you've observed this "hoop-jumping"?
I'm puzzled why the naming conventions need to address the obvious cases - do you think that people go to read conventions when they're already sure what to do? The goal is not to write down a complete system of rules; the goal is to get the encyclopedia written. If that can be achieved without having to notate every detail, that's a Good Thing. Either way, I don't oppose documenting all of our best practices. What are we currently missing. Can we get concrete like that, or aren't we done with the abstract part? - GTBacchus( talk) 22:40, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
I do not remotely resist including these principles. I'd like to see them appropriately addressed. Can you help make that happen, in a focused manner? Why not add "Self-identification" to the list of principles, and then if you're reverted, start a talk-page section on it. BRD, come on. Start us off with the Bold. - GTBacchus( talk) 22:53, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
Regarding lists versus talking in the round... I know that one can do more justice to a nuanced topic via more general discussion, but I also know that people remember and cite items on lists. Think about WP:NOT, for example. Look again at WP:WIARM. Those are lists of important points to remember, but they manage not to come off as overly bureaucratic. I think that Wikipedians are better at Ignoring all rules than you're giving them credit for.
I read IAR when I first arrived, and I looked over a few pages about formatting and general. However - and I think I'm typical in this - 99% of my learning about Wikipedia came from working on it, and watching people act and interact. That's where policy is learned, for the most part.
"Outside of controversial situations people still need basic advice: How to capitalise? Do we abbreviate? What about verbs? What form of spelling? Should it be the "full name", the "official name", the "self identification" name, or the "common name" ... what is the "common name" - how can I find it?" People are welcome to guess at these questions. They're welcome to be wrong. These things are fixed quickly and easily, and by being corrected, the newbie learns the custom without having to read a stupid page about it. That's the ideal. Newbie mistakes are a Good Thing.
Embody your opposition to bureaucracy in a renewed dedication to keeping rules-lawyers from winning in the field. The best place to fight that fight is not on this utterly dispensable page. Let's write something pretty close to the right criteria that we can live with and agree to let develop as necessary, and then let's get out of here and into the field. This page is not worth spending these weeks going 12 rounds over. - GTBacchus( talk) 23:42, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
This policy document is undergoing large-scale change, beginning at the start of the month. That, in itself, is nothing disconcerting: consensus changes, policy changes. However, there are two aspects of the changes occurring to this page that worry me:
I have raised these points above, here and here, but did not receive satisfactory responses from contributors involved in the rewrite. I also raised some specific issues that I had with an earlier revision of the page (18 Sept). A previous RFC asked for outside comment on the removal of exceptions to "common name" for topic-specific naming conventions. That outside comment seemed to fall on the side that the exceptions should be returned to the document. Yet they have not been put back in.
Discussion of the changes extend two archives back. 243 edits have taken place since 6th Septembers (compared to typically 10-20 or so for other content-related policy documents). Eight editors are responsible for almost 85% of those edits.
I suggest that:
This had been suggested by another editor shortly after the current round of editing begun. (The rapid editing of this page only came to my attention with the previous RFC.) --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid ( coṁrá) 21:49, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
Your opinion of what is sought in RM discussions is partly accurate. I would add to it that the broad consensus reflected across the totality of move discussions in the present and recent past are also discussed in individual cases, so the broad consensus is always in mind, and a live part of the discussion.
We seem to be largely in agreement. Now, which specific inaccuracy in the policy do you want to fix first? - GTBacchus( talk) 23:31, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
It might help to realize that instability on this page does not cause disturbances off of this page, to my knowledge. People working in the field are making policy, being policy, not reading it. Most people learn policy by working, not by reading. This page is not nearly as powerful as some may imagine. - GTBacchus( talk) 23:26, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
If you want to address how power is inappropriately wielded, go to move discussions where someone is saying, "it must be done because the holy page says so," and remind them: "IAR is policy. Read the situation, not the rule." That's how you can prevent policy abuse. - GTBacchus( talk) 23:42, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
It's not clear to me what you're talking about, as far as it relates to edits on this policy page. - GTBacchus( talk) 14:10, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
If there's an edit for which you dispute the consensus, then make that dispute clear, and argue via examples and other means what the consensus truly is - out there. Obtaining prior permission for edits to policy pages - even major ones - is simply not part of Wikipedia. That's not how this site works, per our fundamental and foundational policy: Ignore all rules. It's one of the 5 pillars.
Pick an edit. Explain how you know that consensus is such-and-such, and then make the edit. If it sticks, super. If it's reverted, use the talk page section you already started to discuss the edit, and not the fact that it was reverted, or the fact that things have been changing quickly.
If you wish to fix the policy page rather than engage in abstract discussions, then I advise you to leave this thread, and focus on improving the policy page. No prior permission for edits. Just join us in editing, and explain how we're wrong. We invite correction, but not being told we have to get prior approval.
Be pragmatic: you will not get what you want by insisting that we change policy according to your preferred model. You'll end up in endless discussions about preferred models - look at us right now. You will get what you want by simply joining the collaborative editing process, and working together in collegial harmony with us, your colleagues. We want your input on the policy, not on whether you like the way we drive.
Leave this section, and create the reality you want. Or: Answer my points, tell me why I'm wrong, discuss policy in the abstract. I can go all week, and then you'll still be here, talking to me. Sounds cozy! - GTBacchus( talk) 14:21, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
This is bloody ridiculous. If one thing is certain here, it is that there is now less consensus for the "stable version" than for the current version. We're not going to roll back a month of progress, just to satisfy procedural objections.
Hesperian
01:49, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
Oppose (the idea of going back to a "stable" version). Wikipedia doesn't work like that. Pages are edited to improve them. If a page is stable for some time, that may mean it's so perfect that no-one can find any way of improving it; but more likely (and certainly true in this case) it's just that no-one has been paying it much attention for a long period. So when suddenly people do start paying it some attention - shock horror - it CHANGES. The more improvements that are made, the more it changes, and the better it gets. Sometimes particular changes are felt not to be improvements - they get reverted, and solutions are sought, and the page gets even better. Anyone who thinks this fundamental wiki process is a bad thing because it represents "instability" should probably find a different website to spend their time on. -- Kotniski ( talk) 10:26, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
Yeah. - GTBacchus( talk) 14:30, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
Most of our current policies were never "advertized widely and approved by the community as a whole." Never. That never happened with most of the WP:MOS, never happened with WP:NPOV, never happened with WP:RM, WP:CIVIL, WP:AGF, WP:CONSENSUS, nor even earlier versions of this page. The story about obtaining prior community approval is fiction.
The consensus we're talking about is not among five or six editors on this page, but among thousands of editors, as observed in thousands of situations by all of us. We can never get them all here, so we have to work from what we're all observed. Your observations... you haven't been sharing as much, so I guess you don't want as much input. I think that's too bad, because I would value your participation in the policy edits we're making. We'll be stronger with you than without you. Come on. - GTBacchus( talk) 23:50, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
Can we please stop wasting our energy arguing about whether there is consensus, and if so, how much, and which version had the most consensus. If you disagree with something, tell us what, and why. We'll discuss it. Perspectives will alter as a result of discussion. Insight will come. Compromises will be made. Eventually, nearly all of us will agree on how to proceed. Someone will edit the page. We'll discuss some more. The wording will be edited and re-edited until it is satisfactory to nearly everyone. Then you can tell us the next thing you disagree with, and we'll go around again. That's how it works. When we work this way, we get traction on the issues, and we move forward. Discussing how much consensus there is and which version had the most consensus equals no traction equals spinning our wheels and getting nowhere. Hesperian 11:53, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
This page is not nearly as important as people are making it out to be, and its minor value is not disrupted by the activity here. Now, Rannpháirtí: You're still talking about editing policy in the abstract. You didn't want to do that, remember? Why are you doing it, then? Please stop talking about this abstract stuff, and focus on conversations about actual edits.
What is specifically incorrect about the page right now? Pick one issue, and work on it. Or, keep talking about instability, and we'll still be in this pointless thread next week. You will never convince us to edit this page the way you want us to. You will be much better of if you stop knocking your head against that wall, and just use the door already. Make a decision. - GTBacchus( talk) 15:15, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Am I okay with the "under construction" template? Of course. It doesn't bother me one bit. Seeing people have meta-conversations in which they try to reinforce superstitions about the importance of policy pages bothers me. Don't err on the side of caution. Err on the side of boldness, because until I see a disturbance caused by instability on this page, I am no more going to take that into account than I do other fictions, such as the tooth-fairy. - GTBacchus( talk) 21:06, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
In the spirit of those who want work on pages to take place away from those pages, I've started working on a personal draft version, based on the current version but trying to simplify it for accessibility. It's at User:Kotniski/NC (only the lede and the first few sections have been changed so far, the rest is all the same as what's on this page). Any comments or co-editing welcome.-- Kotniski ( talk) 12:39, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
Currently at WP:RM: proposals to move St. Louis, Missouri to St. Louis and Cleveland, Ohio to Cleveland. At present, both move targets are redirects to the move candidates. -- Una Smith ( talk) 14:48, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
I must say, I find the new format, laying out the principles here, to be very useful in making decisions on RM discussions, like this one about moving Communist Romania → Socialist Republic of Romania. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 21:06, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
I see someone has made yet another change to the common-name wording, placing it back in a more commandment-style form, yet without the "exceptions" phrase. This is really getting ridiculous. I fear this argument is looking like heading for a forum where these continuous changes, will not keep confusing paricipation and discussion. Xan dar 22:53, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
This unfortunate edit claims, in its edit summary, that the response to the earlier RFC was that this should stay. This RFC says nothing of the kind; the two accounts who started the RFC said so; everyone else disagreed. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:44, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
... unless you mean all of us, in which case I vote we celebrate our mutual engagement; this is precisely the kind of buy-in that makes this community great.
Hesperian 12:53, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Reading PMAs post, I just did a survey of the choked acres of text above, and dug out the responses to the RFC on removal of the exceptions clause to the Common Names convention. As of the time of this post...
Approving removal of the exceptions clause:
Opposing removal of the exceptions clause:
I therefore at this point see no consensus to remove the exceptions clause. Xan dar 02:12, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
The RFC was misleading, and the numbers above are meaningless. The removal of this clause was one small consequence of a profound change to the overall thrust and emphasis of the convention. The idea that one tiny change could be excised and presented for approval as though it were independent of everything else is ridiculous. Dragging in some people to vote on an issue based on a misleading briefing is never constructive, and most times the outcome is as misleading as the briefing was. Garbage In, Garbage Out. Hesperian 06:19, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
Xandar, I think that to lump Hesperian, PBS, and Born2Cycle into the same group shows a profound misunderstanding of the opinions that have been expressed on this talk page. There are a range of views being expressed and there is overlap between them, but they do represent differences of opinion that can not simply be divided up into for and against exceptions. To do that does not help us reach a consensus on what we do agree upon and build upon it. -- PBS ( talk) 12:51, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
I've taken my life in my hand and [ rewritten the second para to common names section. The main thrust is to not say "except where" explicitly but to explain why and where to use something other than what might be common name. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid ( coṁrá) 12:03, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
A while ago I prepared a page by copying links of each move request I had closed into a list: User:GTBacchus/RM closings. Editing it to make it useful has been slow. It is of course incomplete and as idiosyncratic as my own perspective. Still, someone wanting to see a lot of examples of people talking about page titles - it the setting of a move discussion - can find a lot there. When I edit this page, I try to keep those discussions in mind, and listen to what editors have said, from all sides.
I'm glad that there are editors on this page representing different perspectives, and I offer this as nothing more than a snapshot of Wikipedia through my eyes. I make no claims about the "correctness" of all of my decisions in RM work. Nevertheless, I hope someone finds the history there to be interesting or useful. Thanks for listening. - GTBacchus( talk) 00:53, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
I find it difficult to trace the details, but someone made "Consistency" apply only when "Common Names" isn't applicable for other reasons. I find no consensus for that change. Anywhere. If I don't see some reason for it, I'm going to revert. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 19:49, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Kotniski, good call. I had been working on something similar (and an infobox based version). I think there's a lot more that could be tidied up there to make it more usable - but that's a good start. Well done. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid ( coṁrá) 11:38, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
I generally don't do monthly diffs for policy pages where there are big changes throughout the page, but if someone wants me to, I will. It's a lot to keep up with, maybe the diff should be done by someone more familiar with recent discussions here. - Dank ( push to talk) 14:50, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
Earlier today, an administrator-assisted move was undone at Consumer Watchdog, with the initial argument that wp:name shouldn't be used to further systemic bias. I believed the move to be uncontroversial: two organizations share the name "Consumer Watchdog" ( one in the United States, the other in Botswana). The California-based group appears to be vastly more prevalent in common usage ( 67,400 hits) than the group based in Botswana ( 2,350). Google search result hits are not, at all, a scientific way to measure common usage, but I think they can help demonstrate relativity in many cases, and a nearly thirty to one ratio would seem to indicate one is arguably in common usage in the English language, while the other is clearly not. Since both articles have had only one primary editor, it seems like a move discussion would not be likely to bring in any diversity of opinions, so I'm hoping a discussion here could help clarify. user:J aka justen ( talk) 17:51, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
There's a thread starting at WT:Naming convention draft#Some considerations which may be of general interest, concerning the extent to which we may take account of such factors as self-identification in choosing titles. (The discussion could be moved to this page in fact.)-- Kotniski ( talk) 07:45, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
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Archive 10 | ← | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 |
The mention of Lyons led me to look up the context in WP:NCGN.
Should we make this point here, instead of having our specific guidelines appeal to ENGVAR? (Some other example than Lyons would be appropriate to the wider scope here.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:57, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
Is it necessary to have so much detail about the fauna and flora guidance here? Can we replace it with just the links to the flora and fauna NC's, perhaps with a very concise summary? (And if anyone says this is something to do with the distinction between policy and guidelines I shall scream...)-- Kotniski ( talk) 13:39, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
I see Born2cycle has introduced
Does this remind anyone of the discussion in Through the Looking Glass summarized here?
Perhaps more importantly, it makes the unempirical assertion that topics always have only one name (otherwise the name is ill-defined). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:11, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
But the point PMAnderson is raising here has nothing to do with reliable sources. It is about whether it is appropriate to refer to "the name", as if every topic is in possession of a referent deserving of having the definite article stuck in front of it. Hesperian 00:27, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
I already made such a fix
here, and Born2cycle seemed to have no objection to it. If Born2cycle objects to "should tell the reader what the corresponding articles are about", and we object to "should indicate what the name of the corresponding article topic is", then perhaps "should indicate the topic of the article" is a reasonable compromise. I would not be averse to "should name or otherwise indicate the topic of the article". I also would not be averse to "should name the topic of the article", since, inevitably, that is what a title does.
Hesperian
00:22, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Back on track now; thankyou. With respect to "Articles titles should name or describe the subject of the article", I believe there is very strong consensus that we should use a name if it is available. This wording might suggest that we go with descriptions if we don't like a name.
Hesperian
01:07, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
I just noticed that we list "recognizable", "easy to find", "precise", "concise", "consistent" and "unique", but not "accurate". Don't we try to ensure that the title of the article actually is the name of what the article's about? Is that covered under precision? Thoughts? - GTBacchus( talk) 10:36, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
This has been brought up quite a few times. I think there is something very important here, else I wouldn't have repeatedly raised the Metallica (album)-v-The Black Album example. "Metallica" is the name of the album, and any other name would be wrong. Nonetheless I have been convinced by others that accuracy is a very slippery concept indeed. Usually when we say that one name is more accurate than another, what we mean is that some authority has declared itself in favour of a particular name. In the extreme case, this may be the author of a book, who surely has the moral authority to decide upon its name (but even in this case we might reject it). At the other end of the spectrum we have self-appointed standards bodies who make arbitrary and unilateral decisions about the common names of mammals, and expect everyone else to follow them. If you turn it on its head, the question arises whether we would ever reject a grossly inaccurate name that everyone uses. Arguably we do at gravitation (as opposed to the more common but incorrect "gravity"), but this one example is swamped by the billions of counter-examples: sheoaks are not female oaks; starfish are not fish; and there is nothing French about French Fries. It is this mess that prompted me to start talking about #Endorsed names above. Hesperian 11:29, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
Maybe many people are swayed by the commonness of "Burma", but many people aren't. In my experience as a student and looker-at-maps, Myanmar is more common. It is not cut-and-dry; that's all. Please don't debate the name of that article here.
My only point is that accuracy is a consideration in the minds of editors here. I'm not saying that Burma is more or less accurate, just that a good handful of real, live Wikipedians perceive it to be more accurate, and perceive that to be a consideration that matters. Am I wrong? - GTBacchus( talk) 20:52, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
Then you might be happier in some other project. The first paragraph of one of our core policies says:
That is our fundamental protection against bias and censorship; it is a gamble, but so far a successful one. We have mirrors that choose otherwise; if they are more successful, so be it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:06, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
The fact remains that people often make arguments in naming disputes that are based on perceived correctness. What to do about that is an interesting question. - GTBacchus( talk) 22:19, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
OK, GT, let's look at the progress of edits:
It makes little sense to not call a spade when it screams at you. The objective of calling it is to make it stop, to change behavior, and to encourage what was a cooperative conversation. -- Storm Rider 23:09, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
I have come to the view that "accuracy" is only needed when there is a gap between the name expected by readers on searching for the article, and the name expected after having read the article, and thus informed themselves on the topic.
The problem, then is the wording of our "easy to find" principle: "Good article titles use the term by which readers are most likely to search for the article". This puts way too much emphasis on the initial search terms. If applied in the above cases, we would have to move "University of Oxford" to "Oxford University"; "Metallica (album)" to "The Black Album"; "Banksia sessilis" to "Dryandra sessilis"; and "Canadian Forces Maritime Command" to "Canadian Navy". Such moves would eliminate the initial moment of surprise, when the reader discovers that the title is not what they had expected. But there will be a later moment of surprise, when the now-informed reader learns that our title is not so good after all. Far better to be surprised before you knew anything about the topic, than to read up on the topic and then be surprised.
Therefore what we should be doing here is setting aside the undefinable concept of "accuracy", and instead revising our "easy to find" principle to take this into accoun.
The nice thing about this counter-proposal is that it cannot be deployed in situations where there is a genuine real-world naming dispute. The Macedonia naming disputers would be able to take up "accuracy" and use it as a weapon, by claiming that their preferred name is more "accurate" than the alternative(s). But so long as Wikipedia continues to cover the dispute in an accurate and even-handed manner, as it must, it is not possible to argue that informed readers will walk away from the article with a consistent view of what the title should be.
Hesperian 23:44, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
In each case, if the title is at the name most likely to be expected and searched for name by most, then the title is not only good, but ideal.
The very idea that there is some kind of objective criteria for determining the best or most accurate name, other than which is most commonly used, is fundamentally flawed. Names are just that, names. There is no right or wrong. There is no name that is more or less "accurate". The only criteria that should matter is which name is the name most commonly used to refer to the topic in question. That, and only that, is reason to use it as the title. What relevance is there when some probably obscure document or "reliable source" declares the "official" name to be this or that?
Names evolve, and Wikipedia should simply reflect the current most commonly used name for each topic covered. Trying to be more sophisticated than that results in a guaranteed quagmire of contention and ambiguity.
So, let us go with the most commonly used name, as best as we can, and be done with it. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 00:13, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
So which name would you go with in the following situation, assuming for the sake of the argument that my numbers are accurate?
Article name | Percentage of users preferring this name | |
---|---|---|
When searching for the article | After having read the article | |
Metallica (album) | 10% | 90% |
The Black Album | 90% | 10% |
You are of course at liberty to deny the availability of such numbers, but I'd like to hear which name you would support in this hypothetical situation all the same.
Hesperian 00:46, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
H, I love the way you presented this problem. Until the article has had enough influence in the public at large to change the name most commonly used to refer to the topic of the article, the title should continue to reflect the name currently used most commonly. So, in your example, at least for now, I'd go with the The Black Album. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 01:08, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Now I'm asking a question. Namely: What is your "counter-proposal", in a few words? - GTBacchus( talk) 06:31, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Okay, I'm ready now. I didn't realise it when I started this section, but my proposal, in a few words, is restore the guidance that we follow usage in reliable sources.
The "easy to find" principle tells us to use the name that readers will use to search for the article. This puts way too much emphasis on the names used by people in ignorance of the relevant facts. I'm much more interested in the name that readers will prefer after they have read the article and become well-informed. People will search for "The Black Album", but they'll hopefully learn something from reading our article, namely the fact that the album is self-titled, and they'll then expect the article title to be "Metallica (album)". People will search for "Oxford University", but by the time they have read the first six words they will fully support the title "University of Oxford". This is what people mean when they say a name is "correct" or "accurate": they mean that the name is preferred by people who are in possession of the relevant facts.
It would be great to say "Use the name preferred by people who know what they are talking about", but, in accordance with "verifiability not truth", I think this would have to be rephrased as "Use the name preferred in reliable sources". On comprehending this, I was about to withdraw my counter-proposal and bow out gracefully, when I discovered that the "follow usage in reliable sources" guidance has been removed. This is not acceptable. I know from personal experience that this is a basic principle of naming in many parts of Wikipedia. Hesperian 06:49, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
As to claims by WhatamIdoing above that preferring common usage means:
PMAnderson pointed out in a summary comment that some titles are descriptive, not names. Well, yeah, like List of Blah. But I think it's reasonably accurate to say that that is only when there is no name for the article topic. That is, with the conditional "Whenever possible, ...", it's true that titles should reflect the name of the topic. If the topic has no name, then, obviously, the title should be something that reasonably describes the topic. But, that should only be true (with perhaps a per article exception here or there) for topics that have no names.
And I noted that all this begs the question of WHAT name the title should indicate. Here the leading candidates seem to be:
As I said above, the distinction is moot in many if not most cases, for the criteria often produce the same result. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 01:12, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
(@B2c) With respect to your first point, we all seem to agree that we use a name if one exists. The issue PMA raises above is whether that guidance needs to be in the lead. Personally I think it does, though not necessarily in the very first sentence. With respect to your second point, it is indeed begging the question of what name the title should indicate. The whole point of much of this rewrite is to beg that question, because observation of naming decisions across Wikipedia and over several years leads inevitably to the conclusion that there is no single answer to that question. There are multiple principles at work here, and where different principles suggest different names, that is resolved by consensus. Hesperian 01:22, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
(more @ B2c) I was wandering through Wikipedia:Perennial proposals a little while ago, and I noticed an entry entitled Define reliable sources. The reason given for the rejection of this proposal is "Assessing the reliability of sources requires sound editorial judgment, not strict adherence to a list of rules." This captures well my view on article titles. Choosing the best article title requires sound editorial judgment, not strict adherence to a list of rules. Hesperian 03:07, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
After much reflection, I think the foundation of this policy is one constraint and two goals.
Constraint: Each article must have a unique name.
Goal: Choose a title that conveys the topic to the reader.
Goal: Choose a title that conveys that the article content can be trusted.
And that's it. The other two things we've been throwing around are red herrings:
Red herring: use the most common name according to usage in reliable sources.
Red herring: Follow the principle of least surprise.
Hesperian 00:45, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
"Choose a title that conveys the topic to the reader." is not a goal because I can choose a title in French (or Latin) which conveys the topic to the reader, but that is not a "goal". What is a goal is to "choose the most meaningful title that conveys a the topic to the reader". how do choose such a name? why by looking to see what reliable sources in English use. -- PBS ( talk) 11:55, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
The mind likes seeing patterns even when they are not there (eg the canals on Mars). It is not a good idea to promote consistency along side common name and precision on this policy page, as it can be used to undermine both. I have used "Nazi Germany occupation of ..." as an example before because consistency would encourage its use, even when "German occupation of ..." or "Occupation of ..." would be sufficient (depending on the country different precision is need if the name is to be unambiguous). The article name should be precise but unambiguous. -- PBS ( talk) 08:32, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
On WP:Naming conventions the text in the section of policy now headed Use Common name has been significantly changed. All reference to exceptions to the use of the most Common names, as set out in the various individual naming conventions, has been removed. The policy originally read:
It has been amended by a number of editors to read:
Does the removal of exceptions to "Use Common name" from the policy page have agreement? Xan dar 21:24, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
So, on topic, I agree that this page is for articulating principles, and that we need to make sure it doesn't look like law that lawyers think they can quote. Wikipedia's best practices are determined by consensus in specific cases, and then abstracted to policies. "Exceptions" (bad term to use) are examples of places where there is a consensus to do something differently in one area than elsewhere. This sort of agreement can be perfectly valid, so long as it incorporates community input, so it is not a local consensus of a few editors.
I'm not a fan of any sentence that uses the language of "exceptions" and "precedence" or "trumping". I don't think we should be promoting the legalistic notion of "policy > guideline". Taking the legalistic language out of the policy is by no means a negation of the non-legalistic underlying idea. If someone tries to enforce what's written on this page as law — in either direction: saying that specific agreements can trump COMMONNAME or that COMMONNAME can trump specific agreements — then we need to patiently explain to them the principles set out at WP:WIARM. - GTBacchus( talk) 21:26, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
Leave out the disputed sentence. As pointed out, the new structure of the page means it is no longer needed, since it is now perfectly clear that the common name principle is one of several. There is no more need for an "except where..." clause in that place than there is in any other section of this page.-- Kotniski ( talk) 10:18, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
You're right that "verifiable reliable source" is a crime against the English language. I thought we killed that last week sometime, but it seems to have reappeared. That's something that's actually easier to fix than to complain about; I can only assume you've done so.
As for "optimized for readers over editors", that's an even older principle that I remember reading in our policies back in '03. It means titling articles so that readers can find what they want, and aren't confused when they get there. Optimizing for editors would mean giving articles whatever title we're most likely to put double square brackets around. That whole concept is a bit moot however, because of redirects, as has been remarked recently on this talk page. - GTBacchus( talk) 05:19, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
As for "name articles in accordance with", I tried to reword most of those to "articles are generally named in accordance with". I strongly disagree with writing the policies prescriptively. People are already too inclined to take them that way, and IAR is very, very, very, very important. - GTBacchus( talk) 11:27, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
The only thing clear to me about that dispute is that it's not 100% clear and obvious which name is more common. I've seen quite good cases made for both sides, and that's why the dispute has ranged so long and so bitterly. The biggest impediment to productive dialogue is denying that there are good points to be made on the other side, or to claim that it's somehow clear or obvious.
To generalize back to what this page is about, Burma/Myanmar is an excellent example of a disputed title that lies in a gray area and where we have to take all of our naming principles into consideration and let consensus work itself out. In this particular case, I don't see that happening anytime soon, so the name will remain in dispute. Fact of life. - GTBacchus( talk) 10:28, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
There seems to be a lot of misinformation being pushed here. Let's get this straightened out. Here is the diff. [1] My take on this is that the overriding principle "use the most common name" has been joined by four other principles of equal (or rather, unspecified) standing. With respect to the wording of the common names section, it has been changed from
"Except where other accepted Wikipedia naming conventions give a different indication, articles should be named in accordance with what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity. The names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors, and for a general audience over specialists. Wikipedia determines the recognizability of a name primarily by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject."
to
"A good title will name the article with what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize – usually the most commonly used name verifiably used in reliable sources in English. The names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors, and for a general audience over specialists."
This is a general softening of the language, reflecting the fact that this is one of several principles to be taken into consideration, not a rule to be wielded against non-compliant conventions. It is important to see the removal of the "exceptions" clause in this broader context. Specifically, it is important to understand that reinserting it will again appear to elevate "use the most common name" to the status of a "rule" that cannot be broken unless an explicit exception is made; this would mean less freedom for specific conventions, not more.
But don't take my word for it. And certainly don't take Xandar's word for it. Look at the diff for yourself. Here it is again: [ [2].
Hesperian 03:29, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
Xandar is right that we're discussing naming principles, and not each other. Hesperian - pull your socks up. Leave all ad hominem remarks back at the schoolyard. (Xandar, you see? I'm an equal opportunity bastard when it comes to this stuff.)
So, can you two stay in the lines, or not? We'd all rather get work done, so race each other to be the first to rise to the occasion. That means no more hitting back. Turn the other cheek, and talk like professionals who can stay on topic. Else, blocks will fly soon. Yes, this counts as a warning to you both. - GTBacchus( talk) 12:37, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
I looks like more changes have been made to the page over the last week than have been made over the last six months. These changes were made by a small number of editors and I find it difficult to believe that all of them carry consensus.
A table of the changes shown by the diff of changes supplied by Hesperian is below:
Text | Status | Link to Consensus | |
---|---|---|---|
A. | "Readers should not have to read into the article to find which of several meanings of the title is the actual subject, but there is no virtue in excess." | Added | WP:Where? |
B. | "Except where other accepted Wikipedia naming conventions give a different indication..." | Removed | WP:Where? |
C. | "Article titles follow standard English text formatting in the case of trademarks, unless the trademarked spelling is demonstrably most common usage in sources independent of the owner of the trademark." | Added | WP:Where? |
D. | "...the current title of a page does not imply either a preference for that name, or that any alternative name is discouraged in the text of articles. Generally, an article's title should not be used as a precedent for the naming of any other articles." | Removed | WP:Where? |
E. | "...the choice of title is not influenced by disputes about whether a name is "right" in a moral sense. Note also that the use of one name as an article title does not preclude the use of alternative names in appropriate contexts in the text of articles." | Added | WP:Where? |
F. | "...the current title of a page does not imply either a preference for that name..." | Removed | WP:Where? |
G. | "...or that any alternative name is discouraged in the text of articles." | Removed | WP:Where? |
H. | "Note also that the use of one name as an article title does not preclude the use of alternative names in appropriate contexts in the text of articles." | Added | WP:Where? |
I. | "Generally, an article's title should not be used as a precedent for the naming of any other articles." | Removed | WP:Where? |
J. | "When there is no other basis for a decision, the name given the article by its creator should prevail." | Removed | WP:Where? |
K. | "Where articles have descriptive names, they are neutrally worded." | Formerly "must be" | WP:Where? |
L. | "Another exception are printable characters in redirect pages." | Removed | WP:Where? |
M. | "Occasionally, these subsidiary pages—if they contain content that is only relevant as an elaboration of a shorter paragraph on the main page—can have more complex page names..." | Removed | WP:Where? |
N. | "The present convention for articles providing more detail on a given topic is using the {{ Main|<toppage>}} and {{ Details|<subpage>}} templates, in accordance with Wikipedia:Summary style, and the guidance on how to avoid POV content forks. Such templates are placed under a section header, each instance of these templates providing a link to a subpage." | Removed | WP:Where? |
O. | Criteria: Easy to find, Precise, Concise, Consistent, Unique | Added | WP:Where? |
--rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid ( coṁrá) 20:56, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
As for "policy is policy", WP:IAR is policy. Wikipedia is fundamentally not a rules-based system. This is the place to discuss that if we're going to be alleging that this policy embodies some kind of hard-and-fast rules that have to be edited with the utmost of care. Contempt for rules is a healthy approach to Wikipedia, and I don't need the Village Pump to tell me that.
Finally, as for BRD, you've missed the first 11 stops on that train. Many bold edits have been reverted and discussed. Even better than BRD is 0RR. Don't go backwards when we can instead tack, like a boat sailing into the wind. That's already going on, and I look forward to your active participation below, where the discussion that you're requesting has been going on for days.
Please note that we are in almost total agreement here, except that I think time spent asking people to stop making bold edits is better spent discussing those edits. - GTBacchus( talk) 09:02, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
It makes me very angry to think that I have wasted a month in deep and thorough discussion about this, only to have someone come in late and revert it all on the false premise that the changes were made "without discussion". At this point, the only change that has been made without discussion is the wholesale revert. Hesperian 23:29, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Comment This debate is incomprehensible. Some editors are arguing about fine points and have expanded the issue to more points than the stated question. I am in favour of the principle that article names should reflect common names most recognisable by average members of the population. This does not seem to be the case currently. For example, in a situation I am familiar with, the US navy has a convention of naming ships by (nearly) unique codes and ship articles tend to say USS America BB99. Fine for American ships, perhaps (or perhaps not, I am not american and do not know if any american would recognise such codes unless an expert) but although Royal navy ships have (non-unique) code numbers, no one in the street would recognise any of them. Yet this is used to distinguish different ships with the same common name. The obvious solution is to use construction/launch date, but a DATE. Something the man on the street can easily understand and which helps identify the correct vessel by era. This is even the common standard amongst references. Yet somehow the american naval convention means that non-unique naval designators are being used to disambiguate ships in other navies, such as the UK one ('for consistency'). How does this mess come to happen under which version of policy? I vote for a policy giving a binding convention on the adoption of user recognisable names and expressly deprecating specialist ones. Sandpiper ( talk) 00:22, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
Neutral I like the text the way it was before, but I don't mind the change. Like GTBacchus said, we need to get out of the wikilayering mindset of breaches, exceptions, etc. We're not trying to lay down the law, but describe current practice here in a way that people can easily refer to. Making a list of principles seems to make sense as long as the wording is agreed to by consensus. And I agree with Sandpiper, this debate is really hard to follow. -- Kraftlos ( Talk | Contrib) 09:25, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
There have been a number of important changes since the start of September that have made their way into document, seemingly without having emerged from common practice or discussion. (I may be wrong about this, if I am I will be happy to be find out so.) I've copied four such changes below and moved the disputed tag to the top of the page while they are under discussion. Note that I have already attempted to restore some of the previous content (or the gist of it) and this edit was subsequently reverted.
The removal of exceptions to "common name" has been discussed above. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid ( coṁrá) 18:53, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Articles titles should name or describe the subject of the article, and make Wikipedia easy to use. Article titles do this if they are:
Easy to find – Good article titles use the term by which readers are most likely to look for the article and to which editors will most naturally link from other articles. In determining what this term is, we follow the usage of reliable sources. As part of this, the name chosen for an article, while in common use, should be neither vulgar nor pedantic; readers will not expect such names.
- Precise. Good article titles are only as precise as necessary to indicate the name of the topic unambiguously. The scope of articles does change; sometimes article titles must be updated accordingly.
- Concise – Good article titles are short; this makes editing, typing, and searching for articles easier. This principle limits the extent to which precision is desirable; this is also one reason we use names (where they exist) in preference to descriptions.
- Consistent – Similar articles are generally given similar titles. This also falls under the Principle of Least Astonishment: readers should not wonder why one article of a class or category has a different format from the others – unless the difference is beneficial to the encyclopedia. Consistency is often achieved by specific naming conventions for specific types of articles.
In addition, titles are constrained by unavoidable technical restrictions, including the necessity that titles be:
- Unique – Wikipedia's software does not allow two distinct articles to have exactly the same title. (It is technically possible to make articles appear to have the same title, but this is never done, as it would be highly confusing to readers, and cause editors to make incorrect links.)
Since these are distinct criteria, they can conflict with one another; in such cases, article names are determined by consensus. Consensus on naming in specific fields, or with respect to particular problems, are stated and explained in the guidelines below. When no consensus exists, it is established through discussion, always with the above principles in mind.
These "criteria" seem to have come out of no where. (They were added with the comment " how's this?"). I'm concerned that they appear to supplant the established policy (viz. Use common names, Be precise when necessary, Use English words, etc.) with a hard set of "criteria". The established policy is more rounded and understanding of the fact that one size does not fit all.
Furthermore, the "criteria" admit that they can "conflict with one another". First, this makes then redundant as criteria and so not helpful to an editor coming here for advice. Second, when they do, the advice given is to determine the article title by consensus - not to read this page to know what policy is. Doesn't this nullify the rest of the page.
It seems to me that that "criteria" try to weasel their way in as policy to the detriment of the established policy. That the appear to have just popped in without discussion, only makes it worse. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid ( coṁrá) 18:53, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
The text I replaced said: "Generally, the objective is to give articles unambiguous titles that readers will most easily recognize, where recognizability is determined by what reliable sources in English call the subject. The principles and conventions listed here set out in detail how that objective is achieved." Where in there do you see "accuracy", "non-offensiveness" or "self-identification"? What edit are you talking about?
Get in the trenches and help move some articles, then tell us what's what. - GTBacchus( talk) 22:46, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
The remaining examples do indeed reflect self-identification, but it is mediated by broader usage: Xandar is saying We use "Indigenous Australians" because Indigenous Australians identify as "Indigenous Australians"; but in fact this misses an intermediate step. It would be more accurate to say We use "Indigenous Australians" because the Australian government and the Australian media and Australian publishers on matters related to Indigenous affairs all use "Indigenous Australians" because Indigenous Australians identify as "Indigenous Australians". Therefore there is no need for "self-identification" in order to explain the names; we are simply following broader usage in reliable sources. Hesperian 03:55, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
The problem is that these principles have no application to how most articles were named. While you can certainly find examples in which some of them were applied, often most if not all of them were not applied. The vast majority of articles have topics with a single clear and obvious commonly used name that is either unambiguous with respect to topics covered in Wikipedia, or that topic is the primary use of that name, and so that name is the title of that article. All of these principles only begin to apply to the minority of articles for which all of the above is not true, yet the current revision implies that they apply to all articles. This needs to be addressed. I'm not sure exactly how it should be addressed, but I suspect that something akin to my simple algorithm suggestion above would be a move in the right direction. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 22:19, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Thank you for using the word "principles" Born2cycle. They're not "criteria" - I see that I used that word - a poor choice - thanks for the correction, however obtusely delivered. They're certainly not "hard"(?). Construing these consistently-used principle s as "hard criteria" and "one size fits all", is bizarre, and contrary to the spirit of policy here. These ideas, as noted above by PMAnderson, who works in Requested Moves, are how articles really are named. I wrote them down based on actual experience in the field working in Requested Moves for years alongside PMA, completing thousands of requests. I also made that edit per a specific request on this talk page to do so. "Why don't you jump in and help us edit it GT?" "Ok, how's this?" Without discussion, my fanny.
Obviously, when names are unambiguous, there's no problem, and no need to appeal to naming conventions. Everyone knows that Asia is called "Asia", and nobody is suggesting that we rename that article.
Now, Rannpháirtí anaithnid claims above that these "criteria" - which they are not - are "supplanting" established policy such as COMMONNAME PRECISE, UE. However, that's precisely what these principles say. Use common names, in English. Is that not what's recognizable? I don't care what you call it, "Recognizable" or "Commonly used in English". The point is, it's what we do. "Be precise when necessary" - which I'd correct to "Be as precise as necessary" is what I (cryptically?) called "Precision".
Moving on in Rannpháirtí's remarks, how conflicting with each other makes principles "redundant" seems to be a crime against English. "Redundant" means overlapping, repeating each other; not conflicting. That's the opposite of what "redundant" means. I have no idea what you were trying to say there.
I'll repeat what I said to Xandar, Rannpháirtí - get some actual experience working with article naming, and then you tell us what the community really does. Until then, you're speaking from ignorance: Ignorance of community practice, and extreme ignorance of how policy works here. "Hard criteria" - what a load of rubbish. Do your homework. - GTBacchus( talk) 22:46, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
With respect to the claim that these have come out of nowhere, please see Wikipedia:Naming conventions/Proposal/Draft, a draft that was written back in February, which articulates an almost identical set of principles. This came about towards the end of around four months of discussion about whether, and how, the naming convention could be reconciled with the naming guidelines on plant taxa. If follows that the changes made this month have been under discussion for a year now.
I don't mind us going over some of this ground again for the benefit of those who have come in late, but it would be a great help if latecomers would acknowledge that they have missed a great deal of discussion and may not be aware of consensus, rather than making baseless claims that discussion has not occurred and/or consensus does not exist. Hesperian 03:30, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Readers should not have to read into the article to find which of several meanings of the title is the actual subject, but there is no virtue in excess.
The addition of this advice seems assume that all article with titles that are similar will be dabbed using a dab page. In cases where primary topics exist or where one of the topics can be placed at an alternative title, this is not the case. Hat links are the established means to dab article titles where the title of one article may refer to something else. Common practice is not to require all articles be placed at an completely unambiguous title. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid ( coṁrá) 18:53, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Old version:
Except where other accepted Wikipedia naming conventions give a different indication, title an article using the most common name of the person or thing that is the subject of the article (making the title unique when necessary as described in the following section and in the disambiguation guideline. Where articles have descriptive names, the given name must be neutrally worded.
New version:
A good title will name the article with what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize and associate with the topic in question; we generally follow the most commonly used name verifiably used in reliable sources in English.
The established version referred to exceptions in other naming conventions, the new way makes no reference to the fact that there are always exceptions and nuances. "Common name" seems to have been put to the wayside in favour of now using what "the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize and associate with the topic in question"? The new wording seems to overly complicate quite a simple thing. Gone too is the admission that it is not always possible to use what "the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize and associate with the topic in question". It also gave a positive instruction ("...title an article using...") rather than a simple value judgement ("a good title will"). --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid ( coṁrá) 18:53, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
I tend to agree that "except where other naming conventions indicate otherwise" is good, and should be embodied in the page in some way. I don't care how, but it's true. Certain domains within Wikipedia have their own conventions. Royalty, Japanese names, Flora, Ammunition... the list goes on. - GTBacchus( talk) 23:02, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
I don't think the replacement useful, and am prepared to change back to the prior, more stable wording. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 03:25, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
When there is no other basis for a decision, the name given the article by its creator should prevail.
The joy of this was that it always allowed for an emergency stop button. Where no consensus for a change existed, the we could default to the title given by the article creators. A common sense solution where no logical solution existed. Taking out the emergency stop seems to assume that there always will be (or always should be) a definitive answer for what to title an article. Reality is that there is not. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid ( coṁrá) 18:53, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Consistent – Similar articles are generally given similar titles. This also falls under the Principle of Least Astonishment: readers should not wonder why one article of a class or category has a different format from the others – unless the difference is beneficial to the encyclopedia. Consistency is often achieved by specific naming conventions for specific types of articles.
As I have said several times I think that to have this is a bad idea. I am not against it appearing in some of the guidelines as a way to clarify some areas, (Eg in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles), but it should not be in the policy.
Many of the guidelines like WP:NC (names and titles) were developed before reliable sources was put into this policy page, and as such were sensible workarounds to the problems of non reliable sources being used to determine names, as in "Bloody Mary" for Queen Mary I.
I think it fundamentally undermines many of the other principles that are listed on this page. If this goes through we end up back in arguments about whether "Military of the United Kingdom" is the correct title or "armed forces of the United Kingdom," or "British Armed Forces". For a long time all most all articles about military forces of a country were named "Military of ..." even when the reliable sources did not use that name because they were a set. Another example is "Occupation of ... by Nazi Germany" whether or not Germany had ever occupied the country before " Occupation of Czechoslovakia by Nazi Germany" or if the country had ever been occupied (eg " Occupation of the Channel Islands by Nazi Germany". Who is to say that such consistence is desirable, particularly as "Nazi Germany" carries a political connotations and is unnecessary unless Germany occupied a country more than once eg "poor little Belgium".
We should not be promoting in the lead of the policy a suggestion that descriptive names should be used in preference to the names commonly used in reliable sources, because it fits in with some editors idea of neat and tidy categories. (I have for example seen in the past that the article Bernard Montgomery, 1st Viscount Montgomery of Alamein should be renamed to Bernard Montgomery because the length of the article title his name spoils the format of some of the categories into which he was included (after all non of the American generals who fought in Europe had such long names). It could be argued that as this is part of policy it overrides the suggestions in WP:NC (names and titles), and if Monty is in a category of Allied commanders for the European Theater his article should have a name without the title as it will be less astonishing to those who look in the category. Now those sensible editors reading this will probably say that is ridiculous, but I put it to you that the muppets will try to use it to insist that article names should fit a pattern ... . -- PBS ( talk)
I happen to think that Hesperian is incorrect because the WP:NC (flora) guideline is the only one which starts out from a premise that ignores common names as used in reliable sources (whether that be a Latin or something else). Instead it states "Scientific names are to be used as page titles in all cases except the following ...", and the editors who cite that guideline have been resistant to changing it so that it starts from common names and then builds upon that to tackle problems that are specific to a flora.
However I want to lay that aside for the moment, and consider the wording not in relation to the guidelines, but what I have described as "free range" naming sets such as "Military of ..." and "Occupation of ... by Nazi Germany". Having a bullet point on "Consistent" that suggests that free range name sets are desirable, when it is not desirable if we are serious about using sources to determine the names of articles. At the very least the wording needs to be altered so that it only applies to extensions to the general conventions in specific conventions and guidelines. -- PBS ( talk) 08:58, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Another area where the current wording causes problems is with national varieties of English for example for Orange (colour) see Talk:Orange (colour)#Requested move 2. -- PBS ( talk) 09:09, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Consistency in a subset of articles, that allows for articles within that subset to be named consistently with other articles in that subset, but inconsistently with articles in the rest of Wikipedia, is not consistency, but absurdity. It's using the rationalization of consistency in order to defend inconsistency. Thus we have fauna consistent with the rest of Wikipedia (using English common names) but inconsistent with flora (which uses Latin scientific names). We have U.S. cities using city, state predisambiguation to be "consistent" with each other, except it's inconsistent with how most cities in the world are named, and even inconsistent with how some well-known cities in the U.S. are named (like Boston, New York City and Los Angeles), not to mention most other topics like film and TV episode titles which are only disambiguated per the specific naming conventions when required. This idea of subset "consistency" is anything but consistent. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 20:34, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
But the main thing is that the arguments made are based on the consistently applied naming policy, guidelines and conventions, and not on special case guidelines that are inconsistent with, or override, the broader/general policy, conventions and guidelines. More specific guidelines should "fill in the gaps", so to speak, as needed, not contradict what the more general stuff calls for.
Now, I support WP:IAR in certain special case per article situations, of course, but see no basis, certainly not in the name of "consistency", for a specific guideline that applies to an entire subset of articles and specifically calls for editor behavior that is inconsistent with the rest of Wikipedia. That's not consistency, that's absurdity. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 21:47, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
What I see as absurdity is specific practices that are inconsistent with general practices justified as consistency!
We should be able to document what the practices are without referring to inconsistent practices as being consistent. Yet "consistent" is the name we're giving to this principle of inconsistency. Absurd! -- Born2cycle ( talk) 23:39, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
(reset indent)
If you really want to accurately describe current practice in some corners of Wikipedia, the section currently states:
What it should state:
-- Born2cycle ( talk) 23:45, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
All of this is irrelevant. If there is consensus in some areas of Wikipedia to use absurd names (as seems to be the case), then we must document that absurdity.
Hesperian
02:01, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
I find changing practice first and policy pages later to be more efficient. YMMV. - GTBacchus( talk) 02:22, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
My problem is with situations in which a name is justified by "consistency" which is inconsistent with broader WP naming policy, guidelines and conventions. Big difference. The former is rational, the latter is absurd. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 17:52, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
<--I agree with Born2cycle last statement on this issue. For example one can only justify the use of numerals and countries in the naming of monarchs because it is in a guideline and it is a method used in many reliable sources. We do not tend to use numerals on pre-conquest English kings because reliable sources do not. If we did we would end up with Edward the Confessor as Edward III of England an Edward I of England would be Edward IV of England (or some other numeral). We would be internally consistent, but it would a consistency that did not match reliable sources. There is also a case for using internal consistency if we do not have access to many reliable sources on a topic,(eg some obscure (to English sources) Russian count during the Napoleonic wars), that internal consistency may help editors find the subject without confusing the reader, and in that case make linking easier, and indirectly aids the reader in finding the article.
Who are your "lot of people feel very strongly that it should continue to happen"? I don't mind coming up with wording that when reliable sources are not clear on a name, if it helps deciding on the most easily recognize name then consistency should be considered, but we should not promote internal consistency as an alternative to using the name which is commonly used in reliable sources. -- PBS ( talk) 12:33, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
This discussion is too scattered and spread out. As a result many editors are finding it difficult to follow and as a result consensus may be there for some changes but only from those who are making this discussion into a full time job. Let's try and find a way to better manage this so that more of us can intelligently follow the proposals and get more participation. Vegaswikian ( talk) 18:29, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
I wonder if it's something that could be addressed with a technical patch of some kind. When article editing and talk page action are happening in parallel, what's a good way to visualize what's going on? - GTBacchus( talk) 01:55, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Variuos paragraphs on this page seem to have Convention: written in front of them. Does this serve any purpose? To me it looks a bit silly.-- Kotniski ( talk) 12:21, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
ALl right, tell me which of my changes you have some reason for reverting, and what the reason is. The explanation about summaries makes no sense to me, since most of the specific guideline pages are not summarized here, and there seems no reason to select certain random ones among them, select certain random information from them (like using o umlaut instead of o ogonek in Norse names, or the arcane project-internal stuff about stubs), and putting them on this page as "summaries". Since you haven't explained why you reverted the other changes I made, I presume you just did so since it's easier to click the undo button once. I wouldn't make a fuss about it, but you've been doing this kind of thing over and over and over again on this page, for a very long time.-- Kotniski ( talk) 11:36, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
GTBacchus, in the good old days when men were men and quiche eaters had yet to find Wikipedia, there were no real differences between policy and guidelines. But in recent years there has been a clear distinction between policy and guidelines, because unless one wishes to spend one's time on nothing else the half dozen or so main policies is more than enough to cover.
This is a policy page called "Naming conventions". Unfortunately there are also dozens of guidelines to this policy page. Most of these seem to have come into existence as workarounds to the problems of common names before common names were defined as only being those found in reliable sources (Eg " Bloody Mary"). Given that this policy probably has more guidelines than any other policy, it is essential that a clear distinction is made between policy and the guidelines. I think that many of these guidelines are now redundant thanks to the addition of reliable sources to this policy, but they retain their usefulness as a guideline for a specific area. By this I mean if one considering creating a new article on an aeroplane, then Wikipedia:Naming conventions (aircraft) provides a useful brief description of how to name an aircraft with examples relating to that specific field. BUT with so many guidelines, it is helpful if the policy set the bounds to what the guidelines say and a nutshell type sentence or two for each guideline, helps in this process. It also helps if one comes to the policy and needs to see if a particular guideline only describes an area or if it contains supplemental rules for a specific area as does Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles). That is a case were there should be more detail in the form of a convention not less. -- PBS ( talk) 17:01, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
And back to the original (though apparently quite minor) question, PBS - can you explain in loud and ringing tones what you think "convention" means? Because we just don't get it. Your latest edit summary says "this page contains the conventions", implying you don't think the other "Naming conventions (xxx)" pages contain conventions? But anyone can see that they do, surely, unless you think conventions has some unusual meaning here? And againm, what is the significance of those paragraphs marked "Convention:" on this page? I'm sure this is no big deal, but having these misunderstandings unresolved is starting to obstruct the process of editing these pages.-- Kotniski ( talk) 12:27, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
PBS seems to have done much the same with "naming convention policy" and "naming convention guidelines": he seems to have unilaterally decided that the unqualified phrase "naming convention" means "naming convention policy", never "naming convention guidelines", and that this distinction must be preserved by rooting out and destroying and and all non-conforming uses of the phrase. This is the impression I get; I am not certain of it, because, despite asking PBS about this several times, I have not yet received an answer that I understood. Hesperian 13:51, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
Oh this really is the limit - instead of answering the question, PBS has simply put the offending words back, despite everyone else's being against them. This isn't being bold, it's sticking the requisite number of fingers up at consensus and discussion, and just saying "this is my page, keep off". That is, unless you really do have a good reason for doing this that you're just about to tell us... -- Kotniski ( talk) 16:30, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
My point is that it's not worth getting upset over. Errors will be fixed. Consensus will be reflected. The page will be stable again. Just keep a sense of perspective, that's all. I was reponding to your "Oh this really is the limit". No it's not. Have a cup of tea, or maybe a beer. - GTBacchus( talk) 17:23, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
IAR is policy, and your opinion that it is somehow a relic is a disappointing indicator that you don't know what's going on. Stop hurting wikipedia with this bureaucratic mindset. Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy, and you are duty-bound as an administrator to stop helping the enemy: the Rule-Lawyers.
All of that aside, simply labeling the things with "Convention:" DOES NOT COMMUNICATE EFFECTIVELY. If none of us could figure out what the hell you were talking about, why will readers? If you're going to implement a term of art that is not already well-understood, then explain yourself, man! - GTBacchus( talk) 16:43, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Your limited interpretation of IAR is disappointingly myopic. You're simply wrong about that policy. It is for more than just the occasional "oops the rules are saying something silly; skip it". It's fundamental to every single edit. - GTBacchus( talk) 21:12, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Can someone explain this reversion? It was from
to
What is particularly puzzling is the edit summary: whether actual change of policy occured is not a question of fact. How is determining whether some article has been stable under a given title a change of policy? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:16, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
There seem to be divergent ideas in the air about how quickly and dynamically we should be editing policy pages. Again, that's just an impression. - GTBacchus( talk) 01:48, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
"...Whether stability has existed, and when, is a question of fact..." (among others) seems a thoroughly undesirable insertion to me. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 03:46, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Nonsensical: whether something is stable for a certain amount of time may be factual, extrapolating something like that to "stable" (in general) is not factual. We don't need such gibberish. And it is all fairly unrelated to the core of the guidance you were messing with. So whether or not something can be perceived "factually stable" is unrelated to the determination the guidance tries to make in this instance.
In sum, please quit wasting our time. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 04:28, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
The wording you proposed was clear AND nonsensical. Please quit wasting our time. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 04:40, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
The wording you proposed was clear AND nonsensical. "Whether stability has existed" is about stability in general (so, don't pretend otherwise). Stability in general AND stability for slices of time are BOTH unrelated to the part of the guidance you were messing with. So, discussion of stability (whether in general or for limited periods of time) is useless for the part of the guidance you tampered with. Please quit wasting our time. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 04:40, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Hesperian, sorry to disagree with your analysis "...discussion on this page has proceeded in an unusually constructive manner". So, better to look at yourself than pointing at others isn't it? -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 04:57, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Getting back to the issue here, I agree with Francis that the question "whether stability has existed, and when", is problematic. It is a bit like asking for what values of a discontinuous function is that function continuous. The answer can only be "everywhere except at the discontinuities". One might just as well argue that an article title is stable at all times except when it is being moved. Any attempt to come up with a more sensible definition of "stable" yields a question of interpretation, not "fact".
Hesperian
05:59, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
False argument: someone who wants to discredit a certain range of guidance might attempt to commit people to lose time in a WP:POINT approach. I'm not saying that is *necessarily* the case here, I'm only saying that "Obviously nobody considers their own contributions to be a waste of time" is a false argument. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 06:21, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
I don't know what "false argument" means here. It's not clear to me whether you're accusing me of something or not. I'm not trying to commit any kind of fallacy; I just don't see anypoint is saying "please stop wasting our time" over and over again. I don't see that as a productive or effective rhetorical technique. I see it as inflammatory and distracting; I don't think that's you intention. I'd rather talk about WP:NC here than about logical fallacies. What do I need to take back to get back on topic? - GTBacchus( talk) 12:23, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Someone who supports the "last stable version" wording, please explain to me a way of detemining "stable version" that will work in 80% of cases. I'm willing to leave 20% to consensus to figure out. - GTBacchus( talk) 06:05, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Which "stable version" wording: PMA's? -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 06:21, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
As far as I can tell, the two versions give the same guidance for titles that have recently been stable, and the same guidance for titles that have recently been unstable. The difference is that the old version allowed for a third case, where it is not clear whether or not the title has recently been stable. PMA's new version denies the validity of this third case.
I agree with (the thrust of) PMA's version. If we're going to have a third case for "unclear" , then we might as well also have a fourth case for "unclear whether clear or unclear." And a fifth case for "unclear whether clear or unclear whether clear or unclear". I'm not being trite here. Most arguments over content devolve into meta-arguments over whether or not an consensus has been achieved. The "If it is unclear" guidance merely replaces discussion about whether the title has recently been stable, with discussion about whether it is unclear whether the title has recently been stable. Better to bite the bullet and advise discussion in the first place. Hesperian 06:23, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
All that remains is the question whether we should provide for the third case. Why do you think we should?
Hesperian 06:57, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
The old text fails to provide for the second case, in which it is clear whether the name has been stable for a long time, and it clearly has not been stable for a long time. It is preferable to decide what the title should be by consensus; but it is in this rare case (has it ever happened?) that we default (because there is nothing else) to the first contributor. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:42, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm struck by a comment made by GTBacchus (sorry if it sounds like I singling you out, GTBacchus): "There seem to be divergent ideas in the air about how quickly and dynamically we should be editing policy pages."
Meanwhile the page itself has the following to say:
Proposals for new naming conventions and guidelines should be advertised at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions, at Requests for comment, the Village Pump, and any related pages. Once a strong consensus has formed, the proposal can be adopted and listed on this page.
New naming conventions for specific categories of articles often arise from WikiProjects.
For a list of current and former proposals, see Proposed naming conventions and guidelines.
Please compare the degree of change between this policy page and the other content-related policy pages over the past calendar month:
There is far too much editing-while-discussing going on. This is a policy page. The content of the page needs to reflect consensus. At present it does not appear to reflect consensus among the handful of editors contributing to this talk page - never mind the community as a whole.
Please let the editing-while-discussing stop now. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid ( coṁrá) 18:09, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
I agree that we don't want to give an impression of broad consensus where none exists. I only want to accurately describe the broad consensus I've observed by working in RM. There are too few of us here to make a dent in that, and you'll never get those thousands of people all to a discussion here - thank God. - GTBacchus( talk) 22:22, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
That stuff about Village Pump, and Policy Proposals... that's all bad advice. It shouldn't be presented as good advice. First of all, it's not very effective (that's an Important Point, and if you would change policy, you want to be effective), and secondly, it goes against our fundamental pillar of IAR. The best way to understand policy pages are that they are records of previous agreements. They're descriptions of de facto policies which are determined in the field by consensus. A legalistic or rule-like understanding of Wikipedia policies is cancer.
The view I am articulating here, while popularly misunderstood, is not some relic of by-gone days, and it's not some kind of abstract noise with no application. It's the correct mind-frame to have with every edit you make to the wiki, and that view is supported by a broad and long-standing consensus. IAR is our first policy, and it is not a joke on any level. - GTBacchus( talk) 22:33, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Consensus is created in the field, by thousands of editors. Those who have observed that consensus attempt to record it here. There is no need to get those thousands of people to "sign off" on what they've done, because they signed by doing.
The process is this: does this page reflect actual consensual practice? If so super; if not, how not? What is actual consensual practice, and how can we better describe it. That's all we ever need to talk about on this page. It's much more concrete and useful than talking about "Editing-while-discussing on policy pages", which is at least 2 steps further removed from the actual project than what we ought to be talking about. - GTBacchus( talk) 22:19, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
We've touched on this topic above, but I would like to revisit it. All topics covered in Wikipedia either have names, or they don't. I think the article naming conventions are substantially different for articles about topics with clear and obvious names than are the conventions for articles about topics that don't have names, and so the titles are really short descriptions. For example, Geography of Brazil is not a name of that topic, but a description of that topic, while Paris is the name of the topic of that article. I think it would helpful for the policy to recognize this distinction, because the principles and rules that apply are really quite different. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 20:30, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
When a topic has an obvious name, especially if that name is unambiguous or that topic has primary use of that name, then that name is used for the title irrespective of whether the name is Recognizable, Easy to find, Precise, Concise and Consistent. Hitting WP:RANDOM for some examples of titles that simply reflect the name of the respective topic: Party America, University for Peace, Bubba Miller, Kråkstad, Colossus Records, Epratuzumab, Saccharina, The Radio Pirates. Playing with WP:RANDOM quickly reveals that the vast majority of WP articles are named like this. To contrast, every few articles has a topic that has no name and so the title is not a name, but descriptive, such as 2001 Asian Men's Volleyball Championship and The assault on Copenhagen. It is only for the latter relatively rare type of title to which all these principles apply. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 14:34, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
The reason the name is used as the title is not because it is recognizable and easy to find, but because it is the name of the topic. That is, the primary principle for naming most articles in WP is to use the name of the topic, period. Only when that fails (because there is no name, or dabbing is required, etc.) do other principles become relevant, including those that inherently also happen apply to obvious names. One way or another I think this fundamental point needs to be reflected in the policy, because all too often the lack of appreciation for this fundamental convention is problematic in naming disputes, and the current wording could be easily used to justify using a description rather than the obvious name for any article for which the topic is not very well known (which is the vast majority of articles in WP). -- Born2cycle ( talk) 17:32, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
So, again, my point is that "recognizable" and all of the other principles listed do not apply to naming the vast majority of WP articles which have a single obvious unambiguous or primary most common topic name; in those cases we simply use that topic name to be the article name (title). Since this is how most articles are named, that should be stated clearly upfront, not as a "by the way" after all the principles that only apply to naming a minority of articles are listed. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 20:11, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
Assault on Copenhagen is an imprecise title. It describes, I see, the events of 1659; but Copenhagen has been assaulted many times: 1368, 1801, 1807, 1813... Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:14, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
One more point about this. It should be noted that one's impression about what naming policy is is going to be quite different if that opinion is formed by looking at discussions about article titles going through WP:RM, rather than, say, looking at article names as they are created, or looking at them via WP:RANDOM. This is because the subset of names that go through WP:RM are by definition controversial or likely to be controversial. If this policy only reflects in writing the principles that tend to be used to resolve those disputes, it's almost certainly not going to reflect how most articles are named (which do not ever go through WP:RM).
I think the current revision currently reflects this WP:RM bias, if you will, and this is manifested by not clearly stating up front the primary naming principle in Wikipedia by which most articles are named: by using the most commonly used name of the topic of the article as the title of the article. It should also be noted that this was up front and clear before the recent changes began, if nothing else by having "Use the most easily recognized name" as the first principle listed in the relatively stable revision. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 23:52, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
I agree with Born2cycle that a preference for names over descriptions dominates these principles rather than emerging from them. Suppose, for example, that we wrote an article on Checkers, Nixon's pet dog. I put it to you that we would title it "Checkers (dog)", even though "Nixon's dog" is more recognisable, arguably easier to find, more precise, and more concise (and consistency has no application here). I am certain that preference for the title that uses the name would be near universal; yet I cannot see anything in the present convention that explains why this is so. Hesperian 01:40, 24 September 2009 (UTC) Yes. Most page moves don't get anywhere near WP:RM. They are discussed on the page in question - if at all. Neither does this article give advice only to those requesting that articles be moved. It is also advice for articles that are being created, and where to create them. Articles created an a less appropriate title, they may never be moved at all. Drawing experience exclusively from WP:RM, suffers from selection bias. This does not mean that there is a deliberate "bias" on the part of those who advocate shaping the article to reflect experience from that forum. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid ( coṁrá) 08:13, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
What we have asked is that you use your outside-of-RM experience to help us edit this policy page. If you'd rather talk about how we're biased than simply correct our bias.... then I don't understand why you were complaining earlier about too much abstract discussion. Can you pick a specific problem on the page and focus on it, or are you going to keep talking about issues 2 or 3 steps removed from policy?
What needs to be fixed on this page now? Please, talk to us about edits. Show the effect of the bias on the actual policy page. Show us, please. - GTBacchus( talk) 22:49, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm interested in your outside-of-RM experience in page titling in non-dispute settings. Can you tell us what it's taught you about consensus, that we're currently missing?
It's interesting that you perceive RM discussions as "forcing discussion to jump between hoops"? Can you explain what this means, and where you've observed this "hoop-jumping"?
I'm puzzled why the naming conventions need to address the obvious cases - do you think that people go to read conventions when they're already sure what to do? The goal is not to write down a complete system of rules; the goal is to get the encyclopedia written. If that can be achieved without having to notate every detail, that's a Good Thing. Either way, I don't oppose documenting all of our best practices. What are we currently missing. Can we get concrete like that, or aren't we done with the abstract part? - GTBacchus( talk) 22:40, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
I do not remotely resist including these principles. I'd like to see them appropriately addressed. Can you help make that happen, in a focused manner? Why not add "Self-identification" to the list of principles, and then if you're reverted, start a talk-page section on it. BRD, come on. Start us off with the Bold. - GTBacchus( talk) 22:53, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
Regarding lists versus talking in the round... I know that one can do more justice to a nuanced topic via more general discussion, but I also know that people remember and cite items on lists. Think about WP:NOT, for example. Look again at WP:WIARM. Those are lists of important points to remember, but they manage not to come off as overly bureaucratic. I think that Wikipedians are better at Ignoring all rules than you're giving them credit for.
I read IAR when I first arrived, and I looked over a few pages about formatting and general. However - and I think I'm typical in this - 99% of my learning about Wikipedia came from working on it, and watching people act and interact. That's where policy is learned, for the most part.
"Outside of controversial situations people still need basic advice: How to capitalise? Do we abbreviate? What about verbs? What form of spelling? Should it be the "full name", the "official name", the "self identification" name, or the "common name" ... what is the "common name" - how can I find it?" People are welcome to guess at these questions. They're welcome to be wrong. These things are fixed quickly and easily, and by being corrected, the newbie learns the custom without having to read a stupid page about it. That's the ideal. Newbie mistakes are a Good Thing.
Embody your opposition to bureaucracy in a renewed dedication to keeping rules-lawyers from winning in the field. The best place to fight that fight is not on this utterly dispensable page. Let's write something pretty close to the right criteria that we can live with and agree to let develop as necessary, and then let's get out of here and into the field. This page is not worth spending these weeks going 12 rounds over. - GTBacchus( talk) 23:42, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
This policy document is undergoing large-scale change, beginning at the start of the month. That, in itself, is nothing disconcerting: consensus changes, policy changes. However, there are two aspects of the changes occurring to this page that worry me:
I have raised these points above, here and here, but did not receive satisfactory responses from contributors involved in the rewrite. I also raised some specific issues that I had with an earlier revision of the page (18 Sept). A previous RFC asked for outside comment on the removal of exceptions to "common name" for topic-specific naming conventions. That outside comment seemed to fall on the side that the exceptions should be returned to the document. Yet they have not been put back in.
Discussion of the changes extend two archives back. 243 edits have taken place since 6th Septembers (compared to typically 10-20 or so for other content-related policy documents). Eight editors are responsible for almost 85% of those edits.
I suggest that:
This had been suggested by another editor shortly after the current round of editing begun. (The rapid editing of this page only came to my attention with the previous RFC.) --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid ( coṁrá) 21:49, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
Your opinion of what is sought in RM discussions is partly accurate. I would add to it that the broad consensus reflected across the totality of move discussions in the present and recent past are also discussed in individual cases, so the broad consensus is always in mind, and a live part of the discussion.
We seem to be largely in agreement. Now, which specific inaccuracy in the policy do you want to fix first? - GTBacchus( talk) 23:31, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
It might help to realize that instability on this page does not cause disturbances off of this page, to my knowledge. People working in the field are making policy, being policy, not reading it. Most people learn policy by working, not by reading. This page is not nearly as powerful as some may imagine. - GTBacchus( talk) 23:26, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
If you want to address how power is inappropriately wielded, go to move discussions where someone is saying, "it must be done because the holy page says so," and remind them: "IAR is policy. Read the situation, not the rule." That's how you can prevent policy abuse. - GTBacchus( talk) 23:42, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
It's not clear to me what you're talking about, as far as it relates to edits on this policy page. - GTBacchus( talk) 14:10, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
If there's an edit for which you dispute the consensus, then make that dispute clear, and argue via examples and other means what the consensus truly is - out there. Obtaining prior permission for edits to policy pages - even major ones - is simply not part of Wikipedia. That's not how this site works, per our fundamental and foundational policy: Ignore all rules. It's one of the 5 pillars.
Pick an edit. Explain how you know that consensus is such-and-such, and then make the edit. If it sticks, super. If it's reverted, use the talk page section you already started to discuss the edit, and not the fact that it was reverted, or the fact that things have been changing quickly.
If you wish to fix the policy page rather than engage in abstract discussions, then I advise you to leave this thread, and focus on improving the policy page. No prior permission for edits. Just join us in editing, and explain how we're wrong. We invite correction, but not being told we have to get prior approval.
Be pragmatic: you will not get what you want by insisting that we change policy according to your preferred model. You'll end up in endless discussions about preferred models - look at us right now. You will get what you want by simply joining the collaborative editing process, and working together in collegial harmony with us, your colleagues. We want your input on the policy, not on whether you like the way we drive.
Leave this section, and create the reality you want. Or: Answer my points, tell me why I'm wrong, discuss policy in the abstract. I can go all week, and then you'll still be here, talking to me. Sounds cozy! - GTBacchus( talk) 14:21, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
This is bloody ridiculous. If one thing is certain here, it is that there is now less consensus for the "stable version" than for the current version. We're not going to roll back a month of progress, just to satisfy procedural objections.
Hesperian
01:49, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
Oppose (the idea of going back to a "stable" version). Wikipedia doesn't work like that. Pages are edited to improve them. If a page is stable for some time, that may mean it's so perfect that no-one can find any way of improving it; but more likely (and certainly true in this case) it's just that no-one has been paying it much attention for a long period. So when suddenly people do start paying it some attention - shock horror - it CHANGES. The more improvements that are made, the more it changes, and the better it gets. Sometimes particular changes are felt not to be improvements - they get reverted, and solutions are sought, and the page gets even better. Anyone who thinks this fundamental wiki process is a bad thing because it represents "instability" should probably find a different website to spend their time on. -- Kotniski ( talk) 10:26, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
Yeah. - GTBacchus( talk) 14:30, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
Most of our current policies were never "advertized widely and approved by the community as a whole." Never. That never happened with most of the WP:MOS, never happened with WP:NPOV, never happened with WP:RM, WP:CIVIL, WP:AGF, WP:CONSENSUS, nor even earlier versions of this page. The story about obtaining prior community approval is fiction.
The consensus we're talking about is not among five or six editors on this page, but among thousands of editors, as observed in thousands of situations by all of us. We can never get them all here, so we have to work from what we're all observed. Your observations... you haven't been sharing as much, so I guess you don't want as much input. I think that's too bad, because I would value your participation in the policy edits we're making. We'll be stronger with you than without you. Come on. - GTBacchus( talk) 23:50, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
Can we please stop wasting our energy arguing about whether there is consensus, and if so, how much, and which version had the most consensus. If you disagree with something, tell us what, and why. We'll discuss it. Perspectives will alter as a result of discussion. Insight will come. Compromises will be made. Eventually, nearly all of us will agree on how to proceed. Someone will edit the page. We'll discuss some more. The wording will be edited and re-edited until it is satisfactory to nearly everyone. Then you can tell us the next thing you disagree with, and we'll go around again. That's how it works. When we work this way, we get traction on the issues, and we move forward. Discussing how much consensus there is and which version had the most consensus equals no traction equals spinning our wheels and getting nowhere. Hesperian 11:53, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
This page is not nearly as important as people are making it out to be, and its minor value is not disrupted by the activity here. Now, Rannpháirtí: You're still talking about editing policy in the abstract. You didn't want to do that, remember? Why are you doing it, then? Please stop talking about this abstract stuff, and focus on conversations about actual edits.
What is specifically incorrect about the page right now? Pick one issue, and work on it. Or, keep talking about instability, and we'll still be in this pointless thread next week. You will never convince us to edit this page the way you want us to. You will be much better of if you stop knocking your head against that wall, and just use the door already. Make a decision. - GTBacchus( talk) 15:15, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Am I okay with the "under construction" template? Of course. It doesn't bother me one bit. Seeing people have meta-conversations in which they try to reinforce superstitions about the importance of policy pages bothers me. Don't err on the side of caution. Err on the side of boldness, because until I see a disturbance caused by instability on this page, I am no more going to take that into account than I do other fictions, such as the tooth-fairy. - GTBacchus( talk) 21:06, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
In the spirit of those who want work on pages to take place away from those pages, I've started working on a personal draft version, based on the current version but trying to simplify it for accessibility. It's at User:Kotniski/NC (only the lede and the first few sections have been changed so far, the rest is all the same as what's on this page). Any comments or co-editing welcome.-- Kotniski ( talk) 12:39, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
Currently at WP:RM: proposals to move St. Louis, Missouri to St. Louis and Cleveland, Ohio to Cleveland. At present, both move targets are redirects to the move candidates. -- Una Smith ( talk) 14:48, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
I must say, I find the new format, laying out the principles here, to be very useful in making decisions on RM discussions, like this one about moving Communist Romania → Socialist Republic of Romania. -- Born2cycle ( talk) 21:06, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
I see someone has made yet another change to the common-name wording, placing it back in a more commandment-style form, yet without the "exceptions" phrase. This is really getting ridiculous. I fear this argument is looking like heading for a forum where these continuous changes, will not keep confusing paricipation and discussion. Xan dar 22:53, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
This unfortunate edit claims, in its edit summary, that the response to the earlier RFC was that this should stay. This RFC says nothing of the kind; the two accounts who started the RFC said so; everyone else disagreed. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:44, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
... unless you mean all of us, in which case I vote we celebrate our mutual engagement; this is precisely the kind of buy-in that makes this community great.
Hesperian 12:53, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Reading PMAs post, I just did a survey of the choked acres of text above, and dug out the responses to the RFC on removal of the exceptions clause to the Common Names convention. As of the time of this post...
Approving removal of the exceptions clause:
Opposing removal of the exceptions clause:
I therefore at this point see no consensus to remove the exceptions clause. Xan dar 02:12, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
The RFC was misleading, and the numbers above are meaningless. The removal of this clause was one small consequence of a profound change to the overall thrust and emphasis of the convention. The idea that one tiny change could be excised and presented for approval as though it were independent of everything else is ridiculous. Dragging in some people to vote on an issue based on a misleading briefing is never constructive, and most times the outcome is as misleading as the briefing was. Garbage In, Garbage Out. Hesperian 06:19, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
Xandar, I think that to lump Hesperian, PBS, and Born2Cycle into the same group shows a profound misunderstanding of the opinions that have been expressed on this talk page. There are a range of views being expressed and there is overlap between them, but they do represent differences of opinion that can not simply be divided up into for and against exceptions. To do that does not help us reach a consensus on what we do agree upon and build upon it. -- PBS ( talk) 12:51, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
I've taken my life in my hand and [ rewritten the second para to common names section. The main thrust is to not say "except where" explicitly but to explain why and where to use something other than what might be common name. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid ( coṁrá) 12:03, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
A while ago I prepared a page by copying links of each move request I had closed into a list: User:GTBacchus/RM closings. Editing it to make it useful has been slow. It is of course incomplete and as idiosyncratic as my own perspective. Still, someone wanting to see a lot of examples of people talking about page titles - it the setting of a move discussion - can find a lot there. When I edit this page, I try to keep those discussions in mind, and listen to what editors have said, from all sides.
I'm glad that there are editors on this page representing different perspectives, and I offer this as nothing more than a snapshot of Wikipedia through my eyes. I make no claims about the "correctness" of all of my decisions in RM work. Nevertheless, I hope someone finds the history there to be interesting or useful. Thanks for listening. - GTBacchus( talk) 00:53, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
I find it difficult to trace the details, but someone made "Consistency" apply only when "Common Names" isn't applicable for other reasons. I find no consensus for that change. Anywhere. If I don't see some reason for it, I'm going to revert. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 19:49, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Kotniski, good call. I had been working on something similar (and an infobox based version). I think there's a lot more that could be tidied up there to make it more usable - but that's a good start. Well done. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid ( coṁrá) 11:38, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
I generally don't do monthly diffs for policy pages where there are big changes throughout the page, but if someone wants me to, I will. It's a lot to keep up with, maybe the diff should be done by someone more familiar with recent discussions here. - Dank ( push to talk) 14:50, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
Earlier today, an administrator-assisted move was undone at Consumer Watchdog, with the initial argument that wp:name shouldn't be used to further systemic bias. I believed the move to be uncontroversial: two organizations share the name "Consumer Watchdog" ( one in the United States, the other in Botswana). The California-based group appears to be vastly more prevalent in common usage ( 67,400 hits) than the group based in Botswana ( 2,350). Google search result hits are not, at all, a scientific way to measure common usage, but I think they can help demonstrate relativity in many cases, and a nearly thirty to one ratio would seem to indicate one is arguably in common usage in the English language, while the other is clearly not. Since both articles have had only one primary editor, it seems like a move discussion would not be likely to bring in any diversity of opinions, so I'm hoping a discussion here could help clarify. user:J aka justen ( talk) 17:51, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
There's a thread starting at WT:Naming convention draft#Some considerations which may be of general interest, concerning the extent to which we may take account of such factors as self-identification in choosing titles. (The discussion could be moved to this page in fact.)-- Kotniski ( talk) 07:45, 30 September 2009 (UTC)