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Can we strengthen the notion that having a category is no reason for deleting a list on the main page? This rationale is always used for deleting lists when a category exists, and I am directed to this page, but there is nothing here that says that. If the language was a bit stronger it would be helpful. Also in lists of people including birth and death year would make a list of people inherently useful since you can sort on year of birth or search for the youngest, oldest, first born, first dead quickly. -- Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 18:58, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I suppose that was what you were looking for. Don't know who directed you to the list guideline, it would have made more sense to direct you to a guideline that compares categories with lists.[Categories, lists, and article series boxes] should not be considered to be in competition with each other. Rather, they are most effective when used in synergy, each one complementing the other.
I'm not sure if this is the appropriate forum for this question. If it isn't, I'd appreciate a point in the right direction. I removed over 100 redlinks from the List of progressive rock bands and musicians because it didn't seem appropriate for a list to have so many redlinks. Another editor objected on the grounds that many of the bands were important but obscure and that the list also could serve as a list of needed articles for progressive rock bands. I appreciate those points, but my concerns is that when a list item is a redlink, there is no way for somebody viewing the list to know if the redlink represents a notable band that doesn't have an article yet or a band that completely fails WP:N. In a case where there were two or three redlinks it might not matter all that much, but this was a huge number of redlinks. Is there a policy regarding redlinks in lists? I read the project page and the archives and couldn't find anything. Thank you. janejellyroll 10:54, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
How would you go about formatting a list where the list is interrupted by text?
Thanks,
The freddinator
16:15, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Nevermind - I got it.
The freddinator
16:18, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I think the guidelines ought to cover the adding of lists to "see also" entries. I see many cases where the links are tenuous and where the reader value is questionable (e.g. why would somebody reading about, say, a singer who happens to be mixed race - and whose career hasn't been defined by that - want to click through to a list of mixed race people?). -- kingboyk 12:25, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
to use when a list is being considered to be turned into a category? maybe something along the lines of "This list is being considered for Categorization, blah blah blah April 2007, discuss on the talk page" or something? -- Piemanmoo 06:33, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
When creating a standalone list which contains only existing wikipedia articles, how is attribution handled? Should references be left to the individual articles in the list, or should they be transcribed over to the list page? I ask because a list I am working on has been tagged as unreferenced, but looking around for examples I haven't yet found a List which includes references. Marasmusine 06:38, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Are unannotated but complete bibliographic lists of notable authors encyclopedic under WP:NOT if the vast majority of the books wouldn't qualify for independent articles under WP:BK? If so, what is the threshold for making the list a separate article? See for instance John Piper bibliography. Compare also Category:Bibliographies by author. -- Flex ( talk| contribs) 18:30, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#Mass_deletion_of_obsolete_lists.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 19:58, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
The following two statements should be added to this guideline, in my point of view:
I tried my best to present them as shoulds, not musts; if you think these should be reworded, feel free to give it a try.
Your comments would be appreciated. huji— TALK 10:35, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
How would a list of non-notable items add to an encyclopedia, by only listing some names in text, with no reference? Again, when there are lots of redlinks, without a source, how could we prove them? I am speaking about standalone lists of non-notable items, the notability of which could not be assured, because of lack of any citation, either intrawiki, or out of wiki. Do you think rewording the above statements to target what exactly I'm speaking about, can help? huji— TALK 18:45, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
If you intend the first rule to refer to lists of non-notable items, wouldn't it be helpful to refer to notability in the rule? As to the second rule, it seems seriously problematic for the reasons mentioned above. e.g. what would you do about List of Ambassadors from New Zealand to France (let's pretend for illustration that there are no bluelinks here)? Christopher Parham (talk) 03:03, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
Can Milo explain to me why he deleted this text? Please respond with how this text is incompatible with current policies. After all, Guidelines are there to explain and clarify policies.
Avoid creating lists based on a value judgment or opinions of people or organizations. For example, a "List of obnoxious people" is clearly not acceptable, but more subtle examples could be a "List of demagogues", or "List of exploitative companies", or a "List of authoritarian leaders", as each one of these are based on value judgments even if these can pass the test of verifiability.
The principle of Neutral Point of View, declares that we have to describe competing views without asserting any one in particular. When dealing with lists, this can sometimes become a challenge. If you include political leader XYZ in a List of dictators, on the basis of a mention of XYZ being a dictator by one source, be sure to confirm that this is a widely held opinion, otherwise you will be in disregard of NPOV. Wikipedia:No original research applies equally to a list of like things as it does for the content article on each individual thing listed.
Provide an argument that dismissed the above text as being in contradiction with content policies. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:57, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
Jossi, ... please stop being impatient. New sections have no place on the guideline page until they've acquired consensus. You are skipping the most important step of the process of creating guidelines: that of building consensus. You are trying to apply the process in reverse: requiring the building of consensus to remove the changes you've made to the guideline page. If you keep going straight to the guideline page with your changes (which have failed to reach consensus here so far, and in a previous proposal draft), then this matter will have to be reported on the Administrator's notice board, as you keep violating WP:POV, which is especially serious when it pertains to the foundation upon which Wikipedia is built: it's policies and guidelines. Your actions will not survive the scrutiny of several administrators, so please, do not force the matter any further. Continue to press your points of view on this talk page, and if they have merit, others will support them. --Polar Deluge 03:57, 6 August 2006
PD: Please tone down the rethoric and the silly threats. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:02, 7 August 2006
I happen to agree with Jossi's text. I think that any list whose inclusion criteria are not absolutely objective, or based on overwhelming consensus, would be in violation of WP:NPOV, and therefore cannot exist as such. Crum375 20:10, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
I support the text - it isn't something new, just an application of policy to the list guideline. Guettarda 20:15, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
I support it too. ElinorD (talk) 20:54, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
I support this text as well; it's just iterating existing policy. Jayjg (talk) 01:08, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Let's assume a List of mass murderers. In such a list, would it be acceptable to add to the list George W. Bush based on Islamist sources? Would the same list allow the inclusion of Ariel Sharon based on one source (for those not familiar with this subject, note that there are such sources)? Surely not. This text applies to all lists on subjects about which there is dispute and it explains the application of WP:NPOV to lists. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:28, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
If my wording needs improving, or other editors have alternative proposals on how to address the application of NPOV to lists, these will be welcome. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:07, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
The notice at the top of guideline pages states This page is considered a guideline on Wikipedia. It is generally accepted among editors and is considered a standard that all users should follow.
But Jossi, you posted changes directly to the guideline without it becoming generally accepted first. That renders the guideline notice totally false.
There are over 8,000 lists on Wikipedia, which in turn contain hundreds of thousands of listed items and links. So any change to the guideline pertaining to them has wide ramifications. A single individual should not be allowed to unilaterally and single-handedly change a well-established guideline.
Changes to the guideline should be made after consensus has been reached concerning the proposed change. Sincerely, The Transhumanist 23:16, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
Quoting that policy...
Wikipedia works by building consensus. Consensus is an inherent part of the wiki process. The basic process works like this: someone makes an edit to a page, and then everyone who reads the page makes a decision to either leave the page as it is or change it. Over time, every edit that remains on a page, in a sense, has the unanimous approval of the community (or at least everyone who has looked at the page). "Silence equals consent" is the ultimate measure of consensus — somebody makes an edit and nobody objects or changes it. Most of the time consensus is reached as a natural product of the editing process.
So the arguments above and the guideline change they support, which would require "overwhelming consensus" prior to including them in a list (or even creating a list in the first place) violates the essence of "silence equals consent".
Therefore, I oppose Jossi's changes to the guideline.
Note that guidelines and policies do riquire the building of consensus first. But to require that articles be subject to the same procedure would create a terrible bottleneck in their development.
Sincerely,
The Transhumanist 23:16, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
Avoid creating lists based on a value judgment or opinions of people or organizations. For example, a "List of obnoxious people" is clearly not acceptable, but more subtle examples could be a "List of demagogues", or "List of exploitative companies", or a "List of authoritarian leaders", as each one of these are based on value judgments even if these can pass the test of verifiability.
But there have been verifiable demagogues and exploitive companies throughout history. To disallow lists of this nature doesn't seem appropriate. The part of this guideline that troubles me the most is that it attempts to override Wikipedia's verifiability policy. There are many things that are subjective which are objectively reported on Wikipedia. Jossi, you seem to have confused subjectivity of reporting with subjectivity of the subject. The Transhumanist 23:26, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
WP:NPOV states:
The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting views. The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being the truth, and all significant published points of view are to be presented, not just the most popular one. It should also not be asserted that the most popular view or some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Readers are left to form their own opinions.
As the name suggests, the neutral point of view is a point of view, not the absence or elimination of viewpoints. It is a point of view that is neutral – that is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject.
Debates are described, represented, and characterized, but not engaged in. Background is provided on who believes what and why, and which view is more popular. Detailed articles might also contain the mutual evaluations of each viewpoint, but studiously refrain from stating which is better. One can think of unbiased writing as the fair, analytical description of all relevant sides of a debate. When bias towards one particular point of view can be detected, the article needs to be fixed.
Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research. Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in the main namespace. Because the policies are complementary, they should not be interpreted in isolation from one another, and editors should try to familiarize themselves with all three.
Lists in Wikipedia need to comply with all WP content policies, and there is an obvious difficulty in maintain lists on topics about which there is controversy and/or competing viewpoints on the subject of the list, as lists, by their nature, will only assert one viewpoint about the subject: that which supports the inclusion of a list member in the list. Arguing that there is no such a problem, is naïve at best, or disingenuous at worst ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:04, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Some examples:
See the point? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:45, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Attention: Stop readding material that doesn't have consensus. It shouldn't have been added to begin with, much less readded again, and again. Policies and guidelines by default require the consensus of the community--they're like page moves, if you're going to be changing something, propose it first and see what happens. It's not being bold to make a change to a guideline or policy page without discussion--it's overreaching. The people who come to the page while it's here assume that it's policy or guideline with a big green checkmark and quote it that way.
Now, about the "difficulty with lists". I don't believe that anyone here is saying that there is no problem Jossi. But we have other policies that handle that. It it's a matter of NPOV, then the article can be tagged as such per NPOV policy--lists are articles after all. We don't have to recreate the other policies and guidelines here. If the issue is further, that you think that most lists are, by nature POV and therefore shouldn't exist, that's a whole different boat. We would be talking about most lists--lists of wars, anything political, even things that most people wouldn't find contentious at all. These lists are a means of organization, and they should be better named, and organized, but removing them altogether under the guise of NPOV doesn't wash. The main issue, is that lists should not just list. List of iconic drinkers is a great example of a list article. If that was done with the more contenious issues, there would be a line or two to explain why the person/organization/etc fit the list, and what contention there might be about their role. The solution is not however to cut lists off at the knees. Miss Mondegreen talk 09:58, May 6 2007
See Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#List of bisexual people. This is causing a problem right now; a person does not publically call herself bisexual, yet people wish to add her to the list. I quoted a policy about categories that requires that the subject self-identify in the category, but technically speaking this doesn't apply to lists. This is a problem. Ken Arromdee 20:18, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
It should be instructive to the participants in this discussion to see how many of the lists above have already been to AFD, to read the respective AFD discussions to see how the issues of neutrality and verifiability are addressed (if they actually are at all), and also to see some lists that have been deleted:
Uncle G 10:46, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
First, I'm not happy that once again, the text was added back (I'm talking about yesterday before the dispute tag). You can't revert on the basis of someone else's argument, or on the basis of NPOV policy, because not having the text there doesn't change NPOV policy.
Some people think that adding a reminder about NPOV here, and talking about how it applies to lists will help. Not having it doesn't abandon policy. The issue is that there are two parts of the text that overreach. Do not continue adding stuff in or removing dispute tags or whatever until there is consensus. That's not conforming to NPOV or anything else, that's called WP:OWN, and refusing to recognize that your opinion is only an OPINION.
Now, I added a dispute tag--this has been going on so long, that actually it's the first section which was most contested, and that part has already been rewritten slightly if I recall correctly.
Let me tell you what I think is exactly the problem with the text.
My problem with the first section is the phrase "value judgments". You can prove that someone is a demagogue--just because it isn't nice to call someone that doesn't mean that we shouldn't make factual lists. Secondly, we have all sorts of lists based on public perception. List of iconic drinkers. Iconic. It's based on public perception. Verifiable, but certainly a value judgement.
My issue with the second section is as follows:
"be sure to confirm that this is a widely held opinion, otherwise you will be in disregard of NPOV"
Widly held opinion. Widly held by whom? Any list having to do with anything political or religious will have multiple widly held opinions. I'm concerned that this text will be cited as saying that certain lists can't exist because a "list of religious terrorists" doesn't give the other side of the story. Religious terrorists are only called terrorists to one set of people. The system should work fine--they can go on any list technically applicable. People could add the same names to a list of religious terrorists and a list of religious martyrs. But people either don't or kick up a fuss. But I can't see how getting rid of lists that show a widely held opinion, but only one widly held opinion is the answer.
Any solutions? Am I wrong about the intent of the second section, or how I think it will be interpreted? Miss Mondegreen talk 06:39, May 8 2007
The policy for the establishment of policies and guidelines (and changes to them) is covered at Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines. First you propose, and if it is accepted by the community, then it becomes part of the guideline, not the other way around. Jossi, you just went straight to the guideline and changed it, which is a blatant violation of Wikipedia policy. Policy requires that consensus be reached via discussion first. Please follow the proper procedure here, and wait for a consensus to emerge from discussion of your proposed addition to the guideline. Thank you. The Transhumanist 22:27, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm very, very tired of people thinking that they can decide to remove dispute tags (I know that technically one became a subsection of the other but if the reader can't see the difference there is nonw) or replace sections that don't have consensus and I don't want to hear "let's discuss the actual issues", because right now, this is the issue. Not a day of discussion has gone by without someone pushing this back on the talk page. There is no policy or guideline called "crum" or "jossi"--you can't revert per that, when there isn't isnt' consensus. You also can't revert per NPOV, because NPOV doesn't overule consensus for a guideline. There's a dispute about whether or not the text in question adequately reflects the policies that we have, so when you revert per "NPOV" or "per jossi" or "per crum", it's called WP:OWN.
I'm removing the section. Quite frankly, it doesn't belong on the page even with a disputed tag. A disputed tag is for something that had consensus that issues are being raised with. This hasn't ever had consensus--it's just been pushed on the page. I probably wouldn't be this much of a stickler in other circumstances, but I'm very upset about the extent of pushing that's occured here. If no consensus does occur and discussion trails off, I think it would be far too easy for someone to remove dispute tags when people weren't watching even though the text hadn't gained consensus. And then the whole thing would start up again. This is not how policies and guidelines are supposed to be created, and this is quite frankly exhausting. Text doesn't go into a guideline until it's gotten consensus. This hasn't. And there shouldn't be any more changes on the actual page concerning this if and until consensus is achieved. And consensus won't be achieved if people can't stop pushing this long enough to actually talk about. If people aren't interested in getting consensus, just in a revert war, this will just end up in dispute resolution, and no actual discussion about the issues will take place. Just leave the project page alone. Miss Mondegreen talk 08:33, May 9 2007
This is the text I added.
I would appreciate comments on how these two sentences contradict existing policy, and if the text as written is not acceptable, I would welcome alternative formulations of that wording to address for problematic lists. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:13, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
'"Stop reverting and readding material-there is no consensus"
'"Please do not skip the proposal process"
"disputed content", "Attention: Stop readding material that doesn't have consensus", "The change contradicts WP:CONSENSUS" and "Such a change needs wider discussion"
An example of an approach that can be adopted to lists of something that depends on a rather subjective judgement is
List of major opera composers (compiled by including any composer listed in six out of ten other reputable lists). --
ALoan
(Talk)
12:07, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I understand Miss Mondegreen, concerns, but please note that most Lists in Wikipedia are just lists of names, groups, things, etc. with no commentary, and "list articles" are few. I think that we can replace the wording about "value judgements" and use instead "lists about viewpoints rather than facts", or something of the kind, and warn users about the difficulty in keeping these lists compliant, not only with V, but with NPOV as well. I would say that Will's proposed wording is getting closer to something that can be useful, but it needs to acknowledge further the POV magnet aspects of such lists. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:29, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I am aware that NPOV applies to all policies, guidelines, articles, lists, etc. The issue here is not whether NPOV applies, it's whether or not the text in question acurately reflects NPOV, and consensus has not been reached. Until such consensus is reached, adding this text back is a violation of WP:CONSENSUS and WP:POL.
NPOV does not give you carte-blanche to add material to this guideline to help enforce NPOV. If people disagree with you on the grounds that they don't like NPOV, then yes, NPOV would overrule them as community consensus for that policy has already been achieved. But, if people disagree that it helps support or enforce NPOV, or if they think that it does things beside enforce NPOV that are negative, then you can't just scream "NPOV!" and stick it into a guideline. People have provided real and serious reasons why they don't like the text in question and are working to improve it. The text does not have consensus. Stop screaming NPOV as if it matters. It doesn't. We're working to improve the text, and once it's improved and consensus is achieved it will go back in.
Pushing WP:OWN will not help. Miss Mondegreen talk 00:41, May 10 2007
=== Lists content === The principle of Neutral Point of View requires that we describe competing views without endorsing any one in particular. Wikipedia:No original research applies equally to a list of like things as it does for the content article on each individual thing listed.
"I think that we have a massive gap in understanding. This is an encyclopedia, and in such a List of demagogues has no place. If there is a person that has been described as such in a published reliable source, we report that in that person's article, alongside all other significant viewpoints. If we do not have that common ground, Miss Mondegreen, I would argue that you may have not understood what NPOV means. ˜ jossi ˜ (talk) 01:11, 10 May 2007 (UTC)"
And we reach the cruz of the matter. To what extent does NPOV apply to lists?
Assuming that these are well written, sourced, verifiable lists that are list articles when necessary and appropriate:
Does NPOV prevent us from creating these types of lists at all?
I don't think so. I think that this has to be done with enormous care, and that these lists that we all percieve to be in danger of breaking core policies, especially NPOV, must be list articles.
List article would do exactly what lists don't: they would assert facts, including facts about opinions — without only inserting opinions
This is the weakness of lists, and the reason that they come under such speculation and fire. As soon as an item is on the list--it says EVERYTHING. If it's not on the list, it says NOTHING. List articles take care of that issue, take care of the issue of asserting (whether it is opinion or fact), without providing the necessary factual basis that includes information about the bias that put it on the page.
It's a tight rope to walk and these articles have to be created and watched with care. But I'm unwilling to say that just because it's difficult, it can't be done or it would be against policy. Lists, even POV magnets can be created and follow policy. We just have to write a really good guideline for how to do it, and for what is absolutely not acceptable. Miss Mondegreen talk 05:57, May 11 2007
[restarting indent]
I think the issue here is that lists aren't articles, and since list entries contain either only the entry, or a small amount of information pertitent to the entry, this can be seen as POV, because only information dealing with the issue at hand is presented. Jossi's right--it's not presented in terms of the grand scheme of things the way it is on the person's individual article, but that does not mean that neutrality does not exist.
Asking for any controversial information to have the full balance of the person's (since we seem to be dealing with people mainly) life weighed against that entry is asking for a DEFENCE, not neutrality.
Look at the NPOV policy:
"The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting views. The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being the truth, and all significant published points of view are to be presented, not just the most popular one. It should also not be asserted that the most popular view or some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Readers are left to form their own opinions. As the name suggests, the neutral point of view is a point of view, not the absence or elimination of viewpoints. It is a point of view that is neutral – that is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject."
Readers are left to form their own opinions....about the topic at hand, about the article, or list. If readers form their opinion of an entry based on information about one thing in a person's life, yes, that's incomplete. But, if they are given both points of view about that particular thing--then the entry is neutral, it's just not very complete in terms of looking at the person as a whole. If we have a list of winners of a prize, and there's controversy surrounding a particular year's win, we would make a mention of that in the list. All I would get from reading the list is that so-and-so won a prize and it was controversial because of x. Neutral. The person might also be a biggot. Might also have latter gone insane and killed people and then himself. Unless that directly relates to the prize, none of that information would be on the list. Whatever information about something is on a list--no matter how neutrally presented--it's going to be incomplete. Maybe if I read that list entry and nothing else, I'll get a much better impression of the person than if I read the article about them--maybe I'll get a worse impression.
But that is irrelevant and doesn't have anything to do with lists or NPOV. The only things that remains the same, is that readers are left to form their own opinions. And maybe they'll form them knowing little, and maybe they'll want to know more. Maybe they'll read the first paragraph of an article and close it. We can't force full and complete knowledge on our readers--we can't force them to balance their opinions, or at least their intake of opinions by saying "no lists, no blurbs, nothing that won't get balanced out". The readers may be judge and jury, be we're not here to defend them-to say, "they may have done this, but look, what a philanthropist!".
We're here to write verifibale neutral articles. And that includes lists. Why don't we get back to the issue of neutrality within the list itself. How to write neutral a neutral list, instead of attempting to rewrite to NPOV policy. Miss Mondegreen talk 07:45, May 13 2007
Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, is one of Wikipedia's three content policies. The other two are Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research. Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in the main namespace. Because the policies are complementary, they should not be interpreted in isolation from one another, and editors should try to familiarize themselves with all three. The principles upon which these policies are based are non-negotiable and cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, or by editors' consensus. Their policy pages may be edited only to improve the application and explanation of the principles.
(LOGRTAC = List of groups referred to as cults)
Miss Mondegreen wrote: "If each cult had a few line description for their official viewpoint--or what they've said in the media to rebut it, or whatnot, would that work? _________ formed as an a official church x years ago. They profess ___, ___, _____ and are known for blank. However, ____ has led to their often being referred to as a cult in the media (references)."
Not sure if this issue has been raised before, had a look around but couldn't locate it. Some lists keep getting a lot of spam and non-notable entries. List of computer system manufacturers is one such example, and I can imagine that there are others as well. What I'd like to know is if there exists a policy on removing any entries where a wikipedia article doesn't exists? I know that this might also include a lot of notable entries which haven't got their own article yet, but at the same time this might help us keeping lists somewhat short, and verifiable. I'm not suggesting that we append this to existing policies, or at least not yet, I just want to hear what other editors think about this. Bjelleklang - talk Bug Me 19:20, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
See Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(lists_of_works)#Necessity_of_forking_bibliography_from_main_article - BillDeanCarter 01:42, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 8 |
Can we strengthen the notion that having a category is no reason for deleting a list on the main page? This rationale is always used for deleting lists when a category exists, and I am directed to this page, but there is nothing here that says that. If the language was a bit stronger it would be helpful. Also in lists of people including birth and death year would make a list of people inherently useful since you can sort on year of birth or search for the youngest, oldest, first born, first dead quickly. -- Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 18:58, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I suppose that was what you were looking for. Don't know who directed you to the list guideline, it would have made more sense to direct you to a guideline that compares categories with lists.[Categories, lists, and article series boxes] should not be considered to be in competition with each other. Rather, they are most effective when used in synergy, each one complementing the other.
I'm not sure if this is the appropriate forum for this question. If it isn't, I'd appreciate a point in the right direction. I removed over 100 redlinks from the List of progressive rock bands and musicians because it didn't seem appropriate for a list to have so many redlinks. Another editor objected on the grounds that many of the bands were important but obscure and that the list also could serve as a list of needed articles for progressive rock bands. I appreciate those points, but my concerns is that when a list item is a redlink, there is no way for somebody viewing the list to know if the redlink represents a notable band that doesn't have an article yet or a band that completely fails WP:N. In a case where there were two or three redlinks it might not matter all that much, but this was a huge number of redlinks. Is there a policy regarding redlinks in lists? I read the project page and the archives and couldn't find anything. Thank you. janejellyroll 10:54, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
How would you go about formatting a list where the list is interrupted by text?
Thanks,
The freddinator
16:15, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Nevermind - I got it.
The freddinator
16:18, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I think the guidelines ought to cover the adding of lists to "see also" entries. I see many cases where the links are tenuous and where the reader value is questionable (e.g. why would somebody reading about, say, a singer who happens to be mixed race - and whose career hasn't been defined by that - want to click through to a list of mixed race people?). -- kingboyk 12:25, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
to use when a list is being considered to be turned into a category? maybe something along the lines of "This list is being considered for Categorization, blah blah blah April 2007, discuss on the talk page" or something? -- Piemanmoo 06:33, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
When creating a standalone list which contains only existing wikipedia articles, how is attribution handled? Should references be left to the individual articles in the list, or should they be transcribed over to the list page? I ask because a list I am working on has been tagged as unreferenced, but looking around for examples I haven't yet found a List which includes references. Marasmusine 06:38, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Are unannotated but complete bibliographic lists of notable authors encyclopedic under WP:NOT if the vast majority of the books wouldn't qualify for independent articles under WP:BK? If so, what is the threshold for making the list a separate article? See for instance John Piper bibliography. Compare also Category:Bibliographies by author. -- Flex ( talk| contribs) 18:30, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#Mass_deletion_of_obsolete_lists.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 19:58, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
The following two statements should be added to this guideline, in my point of view:
I tried my best to present them as shoulds, not musts; if you think these should be reworded, feel free to give it a try.
Your comments would be appreciated. huji— TALK 10:35, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
How would a list of non-notable items add to an encyclopedia, by only listing some names in text, with no reference? Again, when there are lots of redlinks, without a source, how could we prove them? I am speaking about standalone lists of non-notable items, the notability of which could not be assured, because of lack of any citation, either intrawiki, or out of wiki. Do you think rewording the above statements to target what exactly I'm speaking about, can help? huji— TALK 18:45, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
If you intend the first rule to refer to lists of non-notable items, wouldn't it be helpful to refer to notability in the rule? As to the second rule, it seems seriously problematic for the reasons mentioned above. e.g. what would you do about List of Ambassadors from New Zealand to France (let's pretend for illustration that there are no bluelinks here)? Christopher Parham (talk) 03:03, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
Can Milo explain to me why he deleted this text? Please respond with how this text is incompatible with current policies. After all, Guidelines are there to explain and clarify policies.
Avoid creating lists based on a value judgment or opinions of people or organizations. For example, a "List of obnoxious people" is clearly not acceptable, but more subtle examples could be a "List of demagogues", or "List of exploitative companies", or a "List of authoritarian leaders", as each one of these are based on value judgments even if these can pass the test of verifiability.
The principle of Neutral Point of View, declares that we have to describe competing views without asserting any one in particular. When dealing with lists, this can sometimes become a challenge. If you include political leader XYZ in a List of dictators, on the basis of a mention of XYZ being a dictator by one source, be sure to confirm that this is a widely held opinion, otherwise you will be in disregard of NPOV. Wikipedia:No original research applies equally to a list of like things as it does for the content article on each individual thing listed.
Provide an argument that dismissed the above text as being in contradiction with content policies. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:57, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
Jossi, ... please stop being impatient. New sections have no place on the guideline page until they've acquired consensus. You are skipping the most important step of the process of creating guidelines: that of building consensus. You are trying to apply the process in reverse: requiring the building of consensus to remove the changes you've made to the guideline page. If you keep going straight to the guideline page with your changes (which have failed to reach consensus here so far, and in a previous proposal draft), then this matter will have to be reported on the Administrator's notice board, as you keep violating WP:POV, which is especially serious when it pertains to the foundation upon which Wikipedia is built: it's policies and guidelines. Your actions will not survive the scrutiny of several administrators, so please, do not force the matter any further. Continue to press your points of view on this talk page, and if they have merit, others will support them. --Polar Deluge 03:57, 6 August 2006
PD: Please tone down the rethoric and the silly threats. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:02, 7 August 2006
I happen to agree with Jossi's text. I think that any list whose inclusion criteria are not absolutely objective, or based on overwhelming consensus, would be in violation of WP:NPOV, and therefore cannot exist as such. Crum375 20:10, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
I support the text - it isn't something new, just an application of policy to the list guideline. Guettarda 20:15, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
I support it too. ElinorD (talk) 20:54, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
I support this text as well; it's just iterating existing policy. Jayjg (talk) 01:08, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Let's assume a List of mass murderers. In such a list, would it be acceptable to add to the list George W. Bush based on Islamist sources? Would the same list allow the inclusion of Ariel Sharon based on one source (for those not familiar with this subject, note that there are such sources)? Surely not. This text applies to all lists on subjects about which there is dispute and it explains the application of WP:NPOV to lists. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:28, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
If my wording needs improving, or other editors have alternative proposals on how to address the application of NPOV to lists, these will be welcome. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:07, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
The notice at the top of guideline pages states This page is considered a guideline on Wikipedia. It is generally accepted among editors and is considered a standard that all users should follow.
But Jossi, you posted changes directly to the guideline without it becoming generally accepted first. That renders the guideline notice totally false.
There are over 8,000 lists on Wikipedia, which in turn contain hundreds of thousands of listed items and links. So any change to the guideline pertaining to them has wide ramifications. A single individual should not be allowed to unilaterally and single-handedly change a well-established guideline.
Changes to the guideline should be made after consensus has been reached concerning the proposed change. Sincerely, The Transhumanist 23:16, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
Quoting that policy...
Wikipedia works by building consensus. Consensus is an inherent part of the wiki process. The basic process works like this: someone makes an edit to a page, and then everyone who reads the page makes a decision to either leave the page as it is or change it. Over time, every edit that remains on a page, in a sense, has the unanimous approval of the community (or at least everyone who has looked at the page). "Silence equals consent" is the ultimate measure of consensus — somebody makes an edit and nobody objects or changes it. Most of the time consensus is reached as a natural product of the editing process.
So the arguments above and the guideline change they support, which would require "overwhelming consensus" prior to including them in a list (or even creating a list in the first place) violates the essence of "silence equals consent".
Therefore, I oppose Jossi's changes to the guideline.
Note that guidelines and policies do riquire the building of consensus first. But to require that articles be subject to the same procedure would create a terrible bottleneck in their development.
Sincerely,
The Transhumanist 23:16, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
Avoid creating lists based on a value judgment or opinions of people or organizations. For example, a "List of obnoxious people" is clearly not acceptable, but more subtle examples could be a "List of demagogues", or "List of exploitative companies", or a "List of authoritarian leaders", as each one of these are based on value judgments even if these can pass the test of verifiability.
But there have been verifiable demagogues and exploitive companies throughout history. To disallow lists of this nature doesn't seem appropriate. The part of this guideline that troubles me the most is that it attempts to override Wikipedia's verifiability policy. There are many things that are subjective which are objectively reported on Wikipedia. Jossi, you seem to have confused subjectivity of reporting with subjectivity of the subject. The Transhumanist 23:26, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
WP:NPOV states:
The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting views. The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being the truth, and all significant published points of view are to be presented, not just the most popular one. It should also not be asserted that the most popular view or some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Readers are left to form their own opinions.
As the name suggests, the neutral point of view is a point of view, not the absence or elimination of viewpoints. It is a point of view that is neutral – that is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject.
Debates are described, represented, and characterized, but not engaged in. Background is provided on who believes what and why, and which view is more popular. Detailed articles might also contain the mutual evaluations of each viewpoint, but studiously refrain from stating which is better. One can think of unbiased writing as the fair, analytical description of all relevant sides of a debate. When bias towards one particular point of view can be detected, the article needs to be fixed.
Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research. Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in the main namespace. Because the policies are complementary, they should not be interpreted in isolation from one another, and editors should try to familiarize themselves with all three.
Lists in Wikipedia need to comply with all WP content policies, and there is an obvious difficulty in maintain lists on topics about which there is controversy and/or competing viewpoints on the subject of the list, as lists, by their nature, will only assert one viewpoint about the subject: that which supports the inclusion of a list member in the list. Arguing that there is no such a problem, is naïve at best, or disingenuous at worst ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:04, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Some examples:
See the point? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:45, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Attention: Stop readding material that doesn't have consensus. It shouldn't have been added to begin with, much less readded again, and again. Policies and guidelines by default require the consensus of the community--they're like page moves, if you're going to be changing something, propose it first and see what happens. It's not being bold to make a change to a guideline or policy page without discussion--it's overreaching. The people who come to the page while it's here assume that it's policy or guideline with a big green checkmark and quote it that way.
Now, about the "difficulty with lists". I don't believe that anyone here is saying that there is no problem Jossi. But we have other policies that handle that. It it's a matter of NPOV, then the article can be tagged as such per NPOV policy--lists are articles after all. We don't have to recreate the other policies and guidelines here. If the issue is further, that you think that most lists are, by nature POV and therefore shouldn't exist, that's a whole different boat. We would be talking about most lists--lists of wars, anything political, even things that most people wouldn't find contentious at all. These lists are a means of organization, and they should be better named, and organized, but removing them altogether under the guise of NPOV doesn't wash. The main issue, is that lists should not just list. List of iconic drinkers is a great example of a list article. If that was done with the more contenious issues, there would be a line or two to explain why the person/organization/etc fit the list, and what contention there might be about their role. The solution is not however to cut lists off at the knees. Miss Mondegreen talk 09:58, May 6 2007
See Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#List of bisexual people. This is causing a problem right now; a person does not publically call herself bisexual, yet people wish to add her to the list. I quoted a policy about categories that requires that the subject self-identify in the category, but technically speaking this doesn't apply to lists. This is a problem. Ken Arromdee 20:18, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
It should be instructive to the participants in this discussion to see how many of the lists above have already been to AFD, to read the respective AFD discussions to see how the issues of neutrality and verifiability are addressed (if they actually are at all), and also to see some lists that have been deleted:
Uncle G 10:46, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
First, I'm not happy that once again, the text was added back (I'm talking about yesterday before the dispute tag). You can't revert on the basis of someone else's argument, or on the basis of NPOV policy, because not having the text there doesn't change NPOV policy.
Some people think that adding a reminder about NPOV here, and talking about how it applies to lists will help. Not having it doesn't abandon policy. The issue is that there are two parts of the text that overreach. Do not continue adding stuff in or removing dispute tags or whatever until there is consensus. That's not conforming to NPOV or anything else, that's called WP:OWN, and refusing to recognize that your opinion is only an OPINION.
Now, I added a dispute tag--this has been going on so long, that actually it's the first section which was most contested, and that part has already been rewritten slightly if I recall correctly.
Let me tell you what I think is exactly the problem with the text.
My problem with the first section is the phrase "value judgments". You can prove that someone is a demagogue--just because it isn't nice to call someone that doesn't mean that we shouldn't make factual lists. Secondly, we have all sorts of lists based on public perception. List of iconic drinkers. Iconic. It's based on public perception. Verifiable, but certainly a value judgement.
My issue with the second section is as follows:
"be sure to confirm that this is a widely held opinion, otherwise you will be in disregard of NPOV"
Widly held opinion. Widly held by whom? Any list having to do with anything political or religious will have multiple widly held opinions. I'm concerned that this text will be cited as saying that certain lists can't exist because a "list of religious terrorists" doesn't give the other side of the story. Religious terrorists are only called terrorists to one set of people. The system should work fine--they can go on any list technically applicable. People could add the same names to a list of religious terrorists and a list of religious martyrs. But people either don't or kick up a fuss. But I can't see how getting rid of lists that show a widely held opinion, but only one widly held opinion is the answer.
Any solutions? Am I wrong about the intent of the second section, or how I think it will be interpreted? Miss Mondegreen talk 06:39, May 8 2007
The policy for the establishment of policies and guidelines (and changes to them) is covered at Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines. First you propose, and if it is accepted by the community, then it becomes part of the guideline, not the other way around. Jossi, you just went straight to the guideline and changed it, which is a blatant violation of Wikipedia policy. Policy requires that consensus be reached via discussion first. Please follow the proper procedure here, and wait for a consensus to emerge from discussion of your proposed addition to the guideline. Thank you. The Transhumanist 22:27, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm very, very tired of people thinking that they can decide to remove dispute tags (I know that technically one became a subsection of the other but if the reader can't see the difference there is nonw) or replace sections that don't have consensus and I don't want to hear "let's discuss the actual issues", because right now, this is the issue. Not a day of discussion has gone by without someone pushing this back on the talk page. There is no policy or guideline called "crum" or "jossi"--you can't revert per that, when there isn't isnt' consensus. You also can't revert per NPOV, because NPOV doesn't overule consensus for a guideline. There's a dispute about whether or not the text in question adequately reflects the policies that we have, so when you revert per "NPOV" or "per jossi" or "per crum", it's called WP:OWN.
I'm removing the section. Quite frankly, it doesn't belong on the page even with a disputed tag. A disputed tag is for something that had consensus that issues are being raised with. This hasn't ever had consensus--it's just been pushed on the page. I probably wouldn't be this much of a stickler in other circumstances, but I'm very upset about the extent of pushing that's occured here. If no consensus does occur and discussion trails off, I think it would be far too easy for someone to remove dispute tags when people weren't watching even though the text hadn't gained consensus. And then the whole thing would start up again. This is not how policies and guidelines are supposed to be created, and this is quite frankly exhausting. Text doesn't go into a guideline until it's gotten consensus. This hasn't. And there shouldn't be any more changes on the actual page concerning this if and until consensus is achieved. And consensus won't be achieved if people can't stop pushing this long enough to actually talk about. If people aren't interested in getting consensus, just in a revert war, this will just end up in dispute resolution, and no actual discussion about the issues will take place. Just leave the project page alone. Miss Mondegreen talk 08:33, May 9 2007
This is the text I added.
I would appreciate comments on how these two sentences contradict existing policy, and if the text as written is not acceptable, I would welcome alternative formulations of that wording to address for problematic lists. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:13, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
'"Stop reverting and readding material-there is no consensus"
'"Please do not skip the proposal process"
"disputed content", "Attention: Stop readding material that doesn't have consensus", "The change contradicts WP:CONSENSUS" and "Such a change needs wider discussion"
An example of an approach that can be adopted to lists of something that depends on a rather subjective judgement is
List of major opera composers (compiled by including any composer listed in six out of ten other reputable lists). --
ALoan
(Talk)
12:07, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I understand Miss Mondegreen, concerns, but please note that most Lists in Wikipedia are just lists of names, groups, things, etc. with no commentary, and "list articles" are few. I think that we can replace the wording about "value judgements" and use instead "lists about viewpoints rather than facts", or something of the kind, and warn users about the difficulty in keeping these lists compliant, not only with V, but with NPOV as well. I would say that Will's proposed wording is getting closer to something that can be useful, but it needs to acknowledge further the POV magnet aspects of such lists. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:29, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I am aware that NPOV applies to all policies, guidelines, articles, lists, etc. The issue here is not whether NPOV applies, it's whether or not the text in question acurately reflects NPOV, and consensus has not been reached. Until such consensus is reached, adding this text back is a violation of WP:CONSENSUS and WP:POL.
NPOV does not give you carte-blanche to add material to this guideline to help enforce NPOV. If people disagree with you on the grounds that they don't like NPOV, then yes, NPOV would overrule them as community consensus for that policy has already been achieved. But, if people disagree that it helps support or enforce NPOV, or if they think that it does things beside enforce NPOV that are negative, then you can't just scream "NPOV!" and stick it into a guideline. People have provided real and serious reasons why they don't like the text in question and are working to improve it. The text does not have consensus. Stop screaming NPOV as if it matters. It doesn't. We're working to improve the text, and once it's improved and consensus is achieved it will go back in.
Pushing WP:OWN will not help. Miss Mondegreen talk 00:41, May 10 2007
=== Lists content === The principle of Neutral Point of View requires that we describe competing views without endorsing any one in particular. Wikipedia:No original research applies equally to a list of like things as it does for the content article on each individual thing listed.
"I think that we have a massive gap in understanding. This is an encyclopedia, and in such a List of demagogues has no place. If there is a person that has been described as such in a published reliable source, we report that in that person's article, alongside all other significant viewpoints. If we do not have that common ground, Miss Mondegreen, I would argue that you may have not understood what NPOV means. ˜ jossi ˜ (talk) 01:11, 10 May 2007 (UTC)"
And we reach the cruz of the matter. To what extent does NPOV apply to lists?
Assuming that these are well written, sourced, verifiable lists that are list articles when necessary and appropriate:
Does NPOV prevent us from creating these types of lists at all?
I don't think so. I think that this has to be done with enormous care, and that these lists that we all percieve to be in danger of breaking core policies, especially NPOV, must be list articles.
List article would do exactly what lists don't: they would assert facts, including facts about opinions — without only inserting opinions
This is the weakness of lists, and the reason that they come under such speculation and fire. As soon as an item is on the list--it says EVERYTHING. If it's not on the list, it says NOTHING. List articles take care of that issue, take care of the issue of asserting (whether it is opinion or fact), without providing the necessary factual basis that includes information about the bias that put it on the page.
It's a tight rope to walk and these articles have to be created and watched with care. But I'm unwilling to say that just because it's difficult, it can't be done or it would be against policy. Lists, even POV magnets can be created and follow policy. We just have to write a really good guideline for how to do it, and for what is absolutely not acceptable. Miss Mondegreen talk 05:57, May 11 2007
[restarting indent]
I think the issue here is that lists aren't articles, and since list entries contain either only the entry, or a small amount of information pertitent to the entry, this can be seen as POV, because only information dealing with the issue at hand is presented. Jossi's right--it's not presented in terms of the grand scheme of things the way it is on the person's individual article, but that does not mean that neutrality does not exist.
Asking for any controversial information to have the full balance of the person's (since we seem to be dealing with people mainly) life weighed against that entry is asking for a DEFENCE, not neutrality.
Look at the NPOV policy:
"The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting views. The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being the truth, and all significant published points of view are to be presented, not just the most popular one. It should also not be asserted that the most popular view or some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Readers are left to form their own opinions. As the name suggests, the neutral point of view is a point of view, not the absence or elimination of viewpoints. It is a point of view that is neutral – that is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject."
Readers are left to form their own opinions....about the topic at hand, about the article, or list. If readers form their opinion of an entry based on information about one thing in a person's life, yes, that's incomplete. But, if they are given both points of view about that particular thing--then the entry is neutral, it's just not very complete in terms of looking at the person as a whole. If we have a list of winners of a prize, and there's controversy surrounding a particular year's win, we would make a mention of that in the list. All I would get from reading the list is that so-and-so won a prize and it was controversial because of x. Neutral. The person might also be a biggot. Might also have latter gone insane and killed people and then himself. Unless that directly relates to the prize, none of that information would be on the list. Whatever information about something is on a list--no matter how neutrally presented--it's going to be incomplete. Maybe if I read that list entry and nothing else, I'll get a much better impression of the person than if I read the article about them--maybe I'll get a worse impression.
But that is irrelevant and doesn't have anything to do with lists or NPOV. The only things that remains the same, is that readers are left to form their own opinions. And maybe they'll form them knowing little, and maybe they'll want to know more. Maybe they'll read the first paragraph of an article and close it. We can't force full and complete knowledge on our readers--we can't force them to balance their opinions, or at least their intake of opinions by saying "no lists, no blurbs, nothing that won't get balanced out". The readers may be judge and jury, be we're not here to defend them-to say, "they may have done this, but look, what a philanthropist!".
We're here to write verifibale neutral articles. And that includes lists. Why don't we get back to the issue of neutrality within the list itself. How to write neutral a neutral list, instead of attempting to rewrite to NPOV policy. Miss Mondegreen talk 07:45, May 13 2007
Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, is one of Wikipedia's three content policies. The other two are Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research. Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in the main namespace. Because the policies are complementary, they should not be interpreted in isolation from one another, and editors should try to familiarize themselves with all three. The principles upon which these policies are based are non-negotiable and cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, or by editors' consensus. Their policy pages may be edited only to improve the application and explanation of the principles.
(LOGRTAC = List of groups referred to as cults)
Miss Mondegreen wrote: "If each cult had a few line description for their official viewpoint--or what they've said in the media to rebut it, or whatnot, would that work? _________ formed as an a official church x years ago. They profess ___, ___, _____ and are known for blank. However, ____ has led to their often being referred to as a cult in the media (references)."
Not sure if this issue has been raised before, had a look around but couldn't locate it. Some lists keep getting a lot of spam and non-notable entries. List of computer system manufacturers is one such example, and I can imagine that there are others as well. What I'd like to know is if there exists a policy on removing any entries where a wikipedia article doesn't exists? I know that this might also include a lot of notable entries which haven't got their own article yet, but at the same time this might help us keeping lists somewhat short, and verifiable. I'm not suggesting that we append this to existing policies, or at least not yet, I just want to hear what other editors think about this. Bjelleklang - talk Bug Me 19:20, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
See Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(lists_of_works)#Necessity_of_forking_bibliography_from_main_article - BillDeanCarter 01:42, 17 May 2007 (UTC)