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I came across the Triple J Hottest 100 yearly lists (see Category:Triple J Hottest 100) and noticed that they used flagicons in a country of origin column in a table and also in a section farther down the articles in sections titled "Country represented." There are 36 of these lists and over the past two months I was removing them about one a day, partly because it was a bit of work and also if there were any objections, they could be dealt with earlier rather than later. Even though these lists are a mixture of singers and bands, I used the edit summary, "Removed flagicons per WP:FLAGBIO." Although I was not sure if the entire column was necessary, I only removed the flagicons, so the country information was still in the articles (see my version of the 2020 list, [1].) I finished the last on July 31, and then three days later, User:Effluvium1, reverted 34 of them, missing 1989, 1990 and Albums (this one only had flagicons in the infobox), with edit summaries of " there is nothing in WP:FLAGBIO that is relevant to this article". Since this concerns 36 different articles, I thought a discussion here would get more input then anywhere else.
The flag icons are clearly being used to show that they are representing their countries due to the "Country represented" sections. But this is not a singing competition where singers/bands are officially representing their countries, these are annual user polls of what they think are the best songs of the year. Template:Infobox musical artist states that flagicons three different times "Do not add a flag icon.", so if flagicons cannot be used in biographical articles about singers/bands, then why would there use be acceptable in a list of singers/bands? I could find no other examples of music lists using flagicons in their articles, which would show there is a consensus that their use in these situations is not accepted. Aspects ( talk) 23:49, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
Per MOS:INFOBOXFLAG policy, what should I depreciate the use of flag infobox for any settlements, but it's not required to put a flag on {{ Infobox settlement}}, where should they requests for comment anyway? -- 49.150.110.214 ( talk) 00:26, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
The wording of these MOSs would have to be tweaked for the case of some countries which are not themselves sovereign but, e.g., have their own teams in international sport events or their own representations in international organisations. This has long been the practice across Wikipedia but these MOSs have failed to put this in clear terms. 219.76.24.198 ( talk) 12:50, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
Looking at it ( current permalink), I've been tempted to remove the clear repetition of the text above:
As with other biographical articles, flags are discouraged in sportspeople's individual infoboxes even when there is a "country", "nationality", "sport nationality" or equivalent field: they may give undue prominence to one field over others.
On a second thought, if we remove this, the paragraph may start looking like it's about allowance and not about deprecation ("However, the infobox may contain the national flag icon ...").
Meanwhile I choose to change nothing as the lesser evil. But what do you think we can do about this?
What's that, anyway: "competitions where national flags are commonly used as representations of sporting nationality in a given sport"? Used where and by whom? Certainly, every flag is used by someone somewhere, but what does it have to do with English Wikipedia? I'd perhaps suggest removing this whole paragraph altogether, and I'll do this if there's no reasonable objections in a reasonable time (say, more than a week). — Mike Novikoff 23:50, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
Since this was escalated. How are we going to move forward? I support removing the repetive part that was directly quoted and highlighted here, but not the part the unique part dealing with flags in the infoboxes of sportspeople taking part in major international competitions. T v x1 22:05, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
No-one going to bring more input here? Can we restore the version without the repitition, but with the sentence about sportspeople then? T v x1 14:46, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
Please stop the edit warring on the project page. I just issued a warning to User:Tvx1 because they have reverted edits three times in the past 24 hours. I note that User:Mike Novikoff has reverted edits twice in the past 24 hours. Settle this here on the talk page. - Donald Albury 18:13, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
Any consensus regarding flags in military personnel, ethnicity, settlement and among others? -- 49.150.116.127 ( talk) 02:32, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
@ ArnabSaha, GiantSnowman, Mike Novikoff, Donald Albury, and ArsenalFan700: The infoboxflags of Premier League and Ligue 1 are present, of which the Premier League is even a featured article! When I (and other editors) try to include infoboxflags in other association football leagues, some users are stating about MOS:INFOBOXFLAG and also about WP:Other things exist, where in the later article it is clearly written: "While comparing with other articles is not, in general, a convincing argument, comparing with articles that have been through some kind of quality review such as Featured article, Good article, or have achieved a WikiProject A class rating, make a much more credible case." What are your views in this case? Laser Victor 2017 ❯❯❯ talk 09:11, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
Is is okay to use the {{ flag}} template in a list of countries inside an article? For instance here (and the related discussion in the talk page).
Several Wikipedia:Featured lists use it (e.g., List of countries without armed forces, Member states of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations, Member states of the United Nations, etc.) and this use doesn't fall into any of the "Inappropriate use[s]" listed ("Do not emphasize nationality without good reason", "Do not use a flag when a picture of the subject is not available", "Do not use subnational flags without direct relevance", "Do not use supranational flags without direct relevance", "Do not rewrite history", "Do not use flags in genocide-related lists and articles", "Do not use flags on disambiguation pages") so it seems okay to me. A455bcd9 ( talk) 08:05, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
This query comes in the context of a discussion going on at Talk:Republics_of_Russia#Question_about_Table. In that article there is a table listing the republics of Russia, which previously included the republics' flags. User:Thrakkx has removed the flags, citing this policy, but I'm not clear why it should apply here, since it seems very normal for wiki to include the flags of national/sub-national entities in lists of them
In discussion, I cited U.S. state, Federative units of Brazil, List of states of Mexico (coats of arms, since Mexican states don't have flags), States of Germany (in the map), States of Austria (in the map), Cantons of Switzerland (and coats of arms), States and territories of Australia, States and federal territories of Malaysia, States of the Federated States of Micronesia, States of Palau, States of Venezuela, Autonomous communities of Spain. User:Thrakkx's position seems to be that all of these are violations of this part of the MOS. Are they? Furius ( talk) 11:34, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
Some time ago, flag icons were being used in the "launch" section of pages of streaming services such as Disney+. They were removed with the reasoning of falling under WP:ICONDECORATION. However, in my opinion they "serve as visual cues that aid the reader's comprehension", as the MoS mentions. What's your opinion on that? CanePlayz (Jacob) ( talk) 22:30, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
Is it against the guidelines to use flags in lists of honours received? For example, Queen Rania of Jordan#Honours, Lyudmila Putina#Honours and medals, Prince Carl Philip, Duke of Värmland#Honours. Abbyjjjj96 ( talk) 16:18, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
An editor has said that I'm editing against consensus when removing sub-national flags as here. I've gotten thanks from other editors for the same practice. The use of the icons is contrary to my understanding of MOS:FLAGRELEVANCE. What is the opinion of this group of editors on the use of flag icons in such lists of pageant representatives? ☆ Bri ( talk) 18:03, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
Flags are a representation of these states, and by removing these subflags because of MOS:FLAGRELEVANCE does not make sense AT ALL. Most editors would agree, that even for a very long time, even the veteran ones, that subflags in beauty pageant articles are RELEVANT, and should not be removed. Beyond that, there shouldn't be any discussion or consensus about it. Jesteron27 ( talk) 02:10, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
Representation = Relevance
And you've done this complaint numerous times, which I began questioning, I mean, what are you trying to defend here? At least it ain't vandalized. Jesteron27 ( talk) 02:13, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
Almost all the arguments brought here against the flags are nothing but WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Now matter how you turn it, these people actually directly represent these states, so using these flags in that article is not against the guidelines. T v x1 14:15, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
This edit of mine that tried to demonstrate the emphasis of inline flag icons to the fullest degree got reverted by GiantSnowman. The user talk discussion still resulted in disagreement so I'm taking this here. Any thoughts? ~~ lol1 VNIO (I made a mistake? talk to me) 16:30, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
I purpose the removal of flags from ethnicity infoboxes that may cause
MOS:FLAGCRUFT. The recent example what I removed flags from {{
Infobox ethnic group}}
for
Indian people, by replacing {{
Flag}}
to
piped link for example, [[Indian Americans|United States]]
should be in place.
Surveyor Mount (
talk)
02:44, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
Notable Brazilian jiu-jitsu (BJJ) people currently use Template:Infobox martial artist which does not recommend nor proscribe the use of rank icons. The template BJJRank provides an icon to visually indicates the belt level, it is currently used in 135 infoboxes of individuals who have achieved notability in Brazilian jiu-jitsu (BJJ).
Example with and without (from the Royce Gracie article):
Rationale & discussion about allowing BJJRank icon in the infobox of notable BJJ practitioners:
This question relates to discussions at:
Notifications:
Survey
Black belt in Kickboxing, Brown belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsuwithout an "understandable number" stated. The same is true for Amanda Nunes's infobox that states
Black belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Brown belt in Judo. Both don't even link to the relevant article about the ranks of the specific martial art. This could be easily solved by amending the ranks templates and infobox template to provide clearer information, including numerical, and targeted links to relevant information. Done right, it will even make editing easier and provide a more consistent, informative look to all relevant articles. CLalgo ( talk) 10:49, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
Also worth noting that the colour boxes don't actually add any info, so the whole thing seems pointless to me. There really aren't that many grapplers who have achieved notability purely on account of their grappling, so I don't object to those having a colour box, but there are hundreds of BJJ fighters who have become notable for MMA, so having a colour box for BJJ but not for karate, for instance, wouldn't work. So then you'd need a colour box for every belt that they had, which would result in a massive amount of work and the only thing we'd have to show for it would be a load of clutter. NEDOCHAN ( talk) 11:03, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
BJJ fighters already have colour boxes. Ones who are notable for MMA dont. NEDOCHAN ( talk) 20:31, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
The redirect
MOS:XMASTREE has been listed at
redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the
redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 May 22 § MOS:XMASTREE until a consensus is reached.
Vitaium (
talk)
13:03, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
The redirect
Wikipedia:XMASTREE has been listed at
redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the
redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 May 22 § Wikipedia:XMASTREE until a consensus is reached.
Vitaium (
talk)
13:06, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
Currently, the section links to Special:PermanentLink/124575520 as an example of too many icons. However, this example no longer applies: most of the icons that were visible on the page are located within arguments of {{ Infobox football biography}} that have since been deprecated and so they no longer show up when following the link: the only remaining icon is the Spanish flag on the "current team". The page doesn't seem to have been archived at Wayback Machine at the period that there were too many icons. Perhaps the example can be changed to a better one (though I am unfortunately unaware of any) or removed from the page completely? Randi Moth Talk Contribs 17:20, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
Perhaps, American Indian Wars would be a better example. It currently has 59 flag icons in the infobox. - Donald Albury 12:05, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at
Talk:List of Lockheed C-130 Hercules operators § Flag icons in section headings. --
Marchjuly (
talk)
21:47, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
Please see: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#MOS:FLAGS. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 18:07, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Please see Talk:Ulster Scots people#Why the flags? — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 18:40, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
The redirect
MOS:fLAG has been listed at
redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the
redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 December 5 § MOS:fLAG until a consensus is reached.
Utopes (
talk /
cont)
03:58, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 |
I came across the Triple J Hottest 100 yearly lists (see Category:Triple J Hottest 100) and noticed that they used flagicons in a country of origin column in a table and also in a section farther down the articles in sections titled "Country represented." There are 36 of these lists and over the past two months I was removing them about one a day, partly because it was a bit of work and also if there were any objections, they could be dealt with earlier rather than later. Even though these lists are a mixture of singers and bands, I used the edit summary, "Removed flagicons per WP:FLAGBIO." Although I was not sure if the entire column was necessary, I only removed the flagicons, so the country information was still in the articles (see my version of the 2020 list, [1].) I finished the last on July 31, and then three days later, User:Effluvium1, reverted 34 of them, missing 1989, 1990 and Albums (this one only had flagicons in the infobox), with edit summaries of " there is nothing in WP:FLAGBIO that is relevant to this article". Since this concerns 36 different articles, I thought a discussion here would get more input then anywhere else.
The flag icons are clearly being used to show that they are representing their countries due to the "Country represented" sections. But this is not a singing competition where singers/bands are officially representing their countries, these are annual user polls of what they think are the best songs of the year. Template:Infobox musical artist states that flagicons three different times "Do not add a flag icon.", so if flagicons cannot be used in biographical articles about singers/bands, then why would there use be acceptable in a list of singers/bands? I could find no other examples of music lists using flagicons in their articles, which would show there is a consensus that their use in these situations is not accepted. Aspects ( talk) 23:49, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
Per MOS:INFOBOXFLAG policy, what should I depreciate the use of flag infobox for any settlements, but it's not required to put a flag on {{ Infobox settlement}}, where should they requests for comment anyway? -- 49.150.110.214 ( talk) 00:26, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
The wording of these MOSs would have to be tweaked for the case of some countries which are not themselves sovereign but, e.g., have their own teams in international sport events or their own representations in international organisations. This has long been the practice across Wikipedia but these MOSs have failed to put this in clear terms. 219.76.24.198 ( talk) 12:50, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
Looking at it ( current permalink), I've been tempted to remove the clear repetition of the text above:
As with other biographical articles, flags are discouraged in sportspeople's individual infoboxes even when there is a "country", "nationality", "sport nationality" or equivalent field: they may give undue prominence to one field over others.
On a second thought, if we remove this, the paragraph may start looking like it's about allowance and not about deprecation ("However, the infobox may contain the national flag icon ...").
Meanwhile I choose to change nothing as the lesser evil. But what do you think we can do about this?
What's that, anyway: "competitions where national flags are commonly used as representations of sporting nationality in a given sport"? Used where and by whom? Certainly, every flag is used by someone somewhere, but what does it have to do with English Wikipedia? I'd perhaps suggest removing this whole paragraph altogether, and I'll do this if there's no reasonable objections in a reasonable time (say, more than a week). — Mike Novikoff 23:50, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
Since this was escalated. How are we going to move forward? I support removing the repetive part that was directly quoted and highlighted here, but not the part the unique part dealing with flags in the infoboxes of sportspeople taking part in major international competitions. T v x1 22:05, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
No-one going to bring more input here? Can we restore the version without the repitition, but with the sentence about sportspeople then? T v x1 14:46, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
Please stop the edit warring on the project page. I just issued a warning to User:Tvx1 because they have reverted edits three times in the past 24 hours. I note that User:Mike Novikoff has reverted edits twice in the past 24 hours. Settle this here on the talk page. - Donald Albury 18:13, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
Any consensus regarding flags in military personnel, ethnicity, settlement and among others? -- 49.150.116.127 ( talk) 02:32, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
@ ArnabSaha, GiantSnowman, Mike Novikoff, Donald Albury, and ArsenalFan700: The infoboxflags of Premier League and Ligue 1 are present, of which the Premier League is even a featured article! When I (and other editors) try to include infoboxflags in other association football leagues, some users are stating about MOS:INFOBOXFLAG and also about WP:Other things exist, where in the later article it is clearly written: "While comparing with other articles is not, in general, a convincing argument, comparing with articles that have been through some kind of quality review such as Featured article, Good article, or have achieved a WikiProject A class rating, make a much more credible case." What are your views in this case? Laser Victor 2017 ❯❯❯ talk 09:11, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
Is is okay to use the {{ flag}} template in a list of countries inside an article? For instance here (and the related discussion in the talk page).
Several Wikipedia:Featured lists use it (e.g., List of countries without armed forces, Member states of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations, Member states of the United Nations, etc.) and this use doesn't fall into any of the "Inappropriate use[s]" listed ("Do not emphasize nationality without good reason", "Do not use a flag when a picture of the subject is not available", "Do not use subnational flags without direct relevance", "Do not use supranational flags without direct relevance", "Do not rewrite history", "Do not use flags in genocide-related lists and articles", "Do not use flags on disambiguation pages") so it seems okay to me. A455bcd9 ( talk) 08:05, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
This query comes in the context of a discussion going on at Talk:Republics_of_Russia#Question_about_Table. In that article there is a table listing the republics of Russia, which previously included the republics' flags. User:Thrakkx has removed the flags, citing this policy, but I'm not clear why it should apply here, since it seems very normal for wiki to include the flags of national/sub-national entities in lists of them
In discussion, I cited U.S. state, Federative units of Brazil, List of states of Mexico (coats of arms, since Mexican states don't have flags), States of Germany (in the map), States of Austria (in the map), Cantons of Switzerland (and coats of arms), States and territories of Australia, States and federal territories of Malaysia, States of the Federated States of Micronesia, States of Palau, States of Venezuela, Autonomous communities of Spain. User:Thrakkx's position seems to be that all of these are violations of this part of the MOS. Are they? Furius ( talk) 11:34, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
Some time ago, flag icons were being used in the "launch" section of pages of streaming services such as Disney+. They were removed with the reasoning of falling under WP:ICONDECORATION. However, in my opinion they "serve as visual cues that aid the reader's comprehension", as the MoS mentions. What's your opinion on that? CanePlayz (Jacob) ( talk) 22:30, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
Is it against the guidelines to use flags in lists of honours received? For example, Queen Rania of Jordan#Honours, Lyudmila Putina#Honours and medals, Prince Carl Philip, Duke of Värmland#Honours. Abbyjjjj96 ( talk) 16:18, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
An editor has said that I'm editing against consensus when removing sub-national flags as here. I've gotten thanks from other editors for the same practice. The use of the icons is contrary to my understanding of MOS:FLAGRELEVANCE. What is the opinion of this group of editors on the use of flag icons in such lists of pageant representatives? ☆ Bri ( talk) 18:03, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
Flags are a representation of these states, and by removing these subflags because of MOS:FLAGRELEVANCE does not make sense AT ALL. Most editors would agree, that even for a very long time, even the veteran ones, that subflags in beauty pageant articles are RELEVANT, and should not be removed. Beyond that, there shouldn't be any discussion or consensus about it. Jesteron27 ( talk) 02:10, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
Representation = Relevance
And you've done this complaint numerous times, which I began questioning, I mean, what are you trying to defend here? At least it ain't vandalized. Jesteron27 ( talk) 02:13, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
Almost all the arguments brought here against the flags are nothing but WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Now matter how you turn it, these people actually directly represent these states, so using these flags in that article is not against the guidelines. T v x1 14:15, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
This edit of mine that tried to demonstrate the emphasis of inline flag icons to the fullest degree got reverted by GiantSnowman. The user talk discussion still resulted in disagreement so I'm taking this here. Any thoughts? ~~ lol1 VNIO (I made a mistake? talk to me) 16:30, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
I purpose the removal of flags from ethnicity infoboxes that may cause
MOS:FLAGCRUFT. The recent example what I removed flags from {{
Infobox ethnic group}}
for
Indian people, by replacing {{
Flag}}
to
piped link for example, [[Indian Americans|United States]]
should be in place.
Surveyor Mount (
talk)
02:44, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
Notable Brazilian jiu-jitsu (BJJ) people currently use Template:Infobox martial artist which does not recommend nor proscribe the use of rank icons. The template BJJRank provides an icon to visually indicates the belt level, it is currently used in 135 infoboxes of individuals who have achieved notability in Brazilian jiu-jitsu (BJJ).
Example with and without (from the Royce Gracie article):
Rationale & discussion about allowing BJJRank icon in the infobox of notable BJJ practitioners:
This question relates to discussions at:
Notifications:
Survey
Black belt in Kickboxing, Brown belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsuwithout an "understandable number" stated. The same is true for Amanda Nunes's infobox that states
Black belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Brown belt in Judo. Both don't even link to the relevant article about the ranks of the specific martial art. This could be easily solved by amending the ranks templates and infobox template to provide clearer information, including numerical, and targeted links to relevant information. Done right, it will even make editing easier and provide a more consistent, informative look to all relevant articles. CLalgo ( talk) 10:49, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
Also worth noting that the colour boxes don't actually add any info, so the whole thing seems pointless to me. There really aren't that many grapplers who have achieved notability purely on account of their grappling, so I don't object to those having a colour box, but there are hundreds of BJJ fighters who have become notable for MMA, so having a colour box for BJJ but not for karate, for instance, wouldn't work. So then you'd need a colour box for every belt that they had, which would result in a massive amount of work and the only thing we'd have to show for it would be a load of clutter. NEDOCHAN ( talk) 11:03, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
BJJ fighters already have colour boxes. Ones who are notable for MMA dont. NEDOCHAN ( talk) 20:31, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
The redirect
MOS:XMASTREE has been listed at
redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the
redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 May 22 § MOS:XMASTREE until a consensus is reached.
Vitaium (
talk)
13:03, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
The redirect
Wikipedia:XMASTREE has been listed at
redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the
redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 May 22 § Wikipedia:XMASTREE until a consensus is reached.
Vitaium (
talk)
13:06, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
Currently, the section links to Special:PermanentLink/124575520 as an example of too many icons. However, this example no longer applies: most of the icons that were visible on the page are located within arguments of {{ Infobox football biography}} that have since been deprecated and so they no longer show up when following the link: the only remaining icon is the Spanish flag on the "current team". The page doesn't seem to have been archived at Wayback Machine at the period that there were too many icons. Perhaps the example can be changed to a better one (though I am unfortunately unaware of any) or removed from the page completely? Randi Moth Talk Contribs 17:20, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
Perhaps, American Indian Wars would be a better example. It currently has 59 flag icons in the infobox. - Donald Albury 12:05, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at
Talk:List of Lockheed C-130 Hercules operators § Flag icons in section headings. --
Marchjuly (
talk)
21:47, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
Please see: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#MOS:FLAGS. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 18:07, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Please see Talk:Ulster Scots people#Why the flags? — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 18:40, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
The redirect
MOS:fLAG has been listed at
redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the
redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 December 5 § MOS:fLAG until a consensus is reached.
Utopes (
talk /
cont)
03:58, 5 December 2023 (UTC)