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I somehow to go the Ulster-Scots in Canada listings off of a link from a British Columbia politician (can't remember who - A.C. Elliott maybe - 4th Premier of British Columbia?). There are a number of distinguished gentlemen in the history of the province who are of what was called "Anglo-Irish"; one was Chartres Brew, who was the first Chief Constable of the Colony and the founder of the British Columbia Provincial Police; he was in the Royal Irish Constabulary prior to being assigned to BC; I gather that's not very likely a Catholic sort of Irish position; but it could be he was CoE rather than Presbyterian? I don't know at this point and will have to read up some before writing his biography for wikipedia. But when I do, does he qualify as Ulster-Scots or is there an Anglo-Irish designation that's different? Skookum1 05:20, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
The
Anglo-Irish were an eighteenth and nineteenth century phenomenon. The community in the Pale was entirely different being as it was from the original
Norman invasion of Ireland. The nearest this latter community got to an "Anglo" definition was from the 1580s, when it began to describe itself as the
Old English community. I hope this clarifies things somewhat.
193.1.172.138 23:58, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
The Anglo-Irish were an eighteenth and nineteenth century phenomenon As where the scots-Irish or ulster scots. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 51.37.254.47 ( talk) 22:38, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
What exactly is Protestant Scottish traditional music? As someone who has played Gaelic Traditional Music (Scottish/Irish/Manx/Cape Breton) for 10 years, I have never heard of this genre and am interested to learn more. I suggest deleting this. I also know many Prodestants from Ulster who play Irish/Scottish trad music and doubt that you can desect Ulster Scots, Irish, Scottish, Scottish Protestants, Scottish hythens, and Scottish Catholics along music lines. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zimmer79 ( talk • contribs) 19:35, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
The definition is quite elementary... Irish/Scottish traditional music plus a lambeg drum = Scottish Protestant traditional music!
92.235.178.44 (
talk) 14:44, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
That's not Ulster-Scots that's Irish and Scottish music respectively, you're trying to invent a genre that doesn't exist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 51.37.254.47 ( talk) 22:39, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
I know there was an earlier discussion of a misused flag image, but I'm wondering why all the flags are currently even in this article. They don't seem to illustrate the article in any way, but just fill space. I think they should be removed. There is no official flag for Ulster Scots identity as much as some people would wish there were. — ★ Parsa ☞ talk 16:34, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
Flag icons may be relevant in some subject areas, where the subject actually represents that country or nationality – such as military units or national sports teams. ... Terms such as "country" and "nation" as used [here] should be understood to also apply to other uses of flags, such as national subdivisions. Ulster Scots are not the repesenatives of any jurisdiction.
Use a historical flag and associated country name when they have at least a semi-officially applicable rationale to use them. For example, in lists of Olympic medalists, the USSR flag and country name should be used for reporting before 1992, not those of the Russian Federation or the CIS.Nothing like that applies here, to create a big vertical gallery of flags, as Ulster Scots are not formal representatives, like a sports team, of anywhere or "anywhen" to which those flags pertain.
It may in some narrow military history circumstances be appropriate to use flags, as they were used at the time being written about, including naval ensigns.... An example might be an in-depth exploration of a famous battle involving numerous forces with known flags; such flags might be used in summary tables to make it clearer which force was being referred to for a particular detail.Ulster Scots are not a military unit, and this is nothing like use of small identifying flags in a table.
Entities without flags until after a certain point in time: Some subnational entities have not had flags until recently (e.g. the Welsh flag has only been official since 1959). While this flag can still represent Wales generally, it should not be used to represent the country when the context is specifically about a time period predating the flag.Ulster Scots have no flag that pertains to them in particular at all, and do not form a jurisdiction of any kind, much less a sub-national political entity to which a flag applies, now or ever.
Political issues: Beware of political pitfalls, and listen to concerns raised by other editors. Some flags are (sometimes or always) political statements. Everything about the flag [mis]usage you're trying to insist on is politically laden, from applying a traditional flag of Ireland to people mostly in Northern Ireland, to using an unofficial Ulster flag that is a Unionist symbol, to applying a Scottish flag to people only descended multi-generationally from Scots, to adding the flag of England which really has nothing to do with Ulster Scots or Ulster at all (the English flag is not the Union Jack). And you are certainly not "listen[ing] to concerns raised by other editors" so far.
Use of flags for non-sovereign states and nations: ... In general, if a flag is felt to be necessary, it should be that of the sovereign state, but Ulster Scots are not a sovereign state, and they cross multiple sovereign states even in their home area. That section of MOS:FLAGS even addresses the UK in particular, suggesting that sometimes (usually not) flags for NI, Scotland, Wales, and England are separably useful in an article, but it does not do so for ethno-sociological groups like Ulster Scots. Back to one of these flags in particular:
Some flags are politically contentious – take care to avoid using them in inappropriate contexts. Some examples are: ... Use of the Ulster Banner to represent Northern Ireland in inappropriate contexts. This is actually worse, using it to represent people who are not even limited to Northern Ireland but also found in the RoI, especially Donegal. See also
Avoid flag usage, especially to present a point of view, that is likely to raise editorial controversy over political or other factual matters about a biography subject.This is clearly politicised and has raised editorial controversy; there's no reason to think this MoS principle doesn't apply to mass-biographical articles and only to individual bios.
Inappropriate use: Do not emphasize nationality without good reason. Wikipedia is not a place for nationalistic pride. Clear FAIL on that count.
Flags are visually striking, and placing a national flag next to something can make its nationality or location seem to be of greater significance than other things. ... Emphasizing the importance of a person's citizenship or nationality above their other qualities risks violating Wikipedia's "Neutral point of view" policy.This clearly pertains even more to applying flags to entire groups of people.
Do not use a flag when a picture of the subject is not available: A flag (or other symbolic image) should not be used as an image placeholder. That's basically what's going on here. Because of MOS:NOETHNICGALLERIES, you are trying to just "decorate" the article by jamming images into it, and have inappropriately selected flags, which are subject to a lot of "regulation" on Wikipedia that you've not bothered to read.
Do not use subnational flags without direct relevance: Subnational flags (regions, cities, etc.) should generally be used only when directly relevant to the article. Such flags are rarely recognizable by the general public, detracting from any shorthand utility they might have, and are rarely closely related to the subject of the article.We've already covered this above, but in short it is not possible for these flags to be directly relative to a group of people scattered over the entire north of the island of Ireland, of mixed political loyalties and citizenship, and of completely different family-historical backgrounds; the only thing they have in common is some ancestry from Scotland since the Early Modern period (and not from culturally/ethnically homogenous parts of Scotland; Highlanders are largely of Gaelic and Norse extraction, and Lowlanders largely Anglo-Saxon and Norman, but both supplied large numbers of immigrants to north Ireland).
Do not use supranational flags without direct relevance. This doesn't pertain in a literal sense, but it does in an in-spirit on, since you are attempting to use these flags as catch-all symbols for diverse people who cross national boundaries; essentially making up a supranational use for these flags.
Do not rewrite history: Flags should not be used to misrepresent the nationality of a historical figure, event, object, etc. Political boundaries change, often over the span of a biographical article subject's lifetime. Where ambiguity or confusion could result, it is better not to use a flag at all. These flags do misrepresent nationality, and the actual nationalities to which any given historical Ulster Scot, or the Ulster Scots as a group, has obviously changed over time (plus some of the flags you're defending the use of are not official symbols at all).
Flags make simple, blunt statements about nationality, while words can express the facts with more complexity.That's the nutshell summary of the overall issue here.
This page in a nutshell: While icons can be useful in Wikipedia articles in some circumstances, there are also problems associated with their misapplication and overuse.This is followed by a definition,
icons encompasses any small images, making it clear that the rules do not apply to larger images. Possibly the community shares your view, but until the Manual of Style is changed what matters is the guidelines as they're written. Dan Bloch ( talk) 20:33, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
To clarify, I want to stress here that MOS:FLAGS is NOT a rule! Really don't know why there are people who still don't get that. T v x1 08:24, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
Should this article include the Royal Standard of Ireland, the traditional provincial flag of Ulster, the Scottish Saltire flag, and the flag of England (as shown in this version of the article) to illustrate and provide a visual representation of the ancestral countries/provinces of the Ulster Scots? This has been extensively discussed above, but there seem to be too few editors involved yet to put the matter to rest with a clear enough consensus, pro or con, to move on. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 06:34, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
This page appears problematic. Is there actual evidence that this identity exists historically? The reason I ask is because I cannot imagine that historically people referred to themselves as /Ulster Scots/. The idea of Ulster Scots appears to be a modern term applied to the group of people who came from Scotland to Ireland in the plantations or time period after. I suspect that when these people arrived in Ireland that they referred to themselves as Scottish and had a Scottish culture then eventually as Irish as they assimilated - I imagine this is difficult to comprehend nowadays as the communities for which /Ulster Scots/ are associated is generally Unionist/Loyalist and British. However, only after the partitioning of Ireland and the creation of N.Ireland do you tend to see individuals call themselves British or Ulster Scots. In the 19th century, you will see Protestant organisations referenced as Irish or Ireland. The largest unionist party in Ireland pre-partition was called the 'IRISH Unionists'. If you read any of the Ordnance Survey Memoirs for Ireland, for areas of historical Scottish settlement, you will see the people referred to in relation to their Scottish manner or habits. Their cultural habits may have been different but the people were Irish by nationality and regarded themselves as so. There are countless examples of this. This page appears to try to almost paint Ulster Scots as a polar opposite to Irish, like it's a nationality. It isn't. The people were culturally separate. However, given Scottish traditions (including the Lowlands) there is likely some overlap with Irish traditions. In the rebellion of 1641, the Scottish were said to be spared by the Irish rebels due to the similar affinities - the wikipedia article for the 1641 rebellion even states this.
It appears to me that the Ulster Scots which is outlined by the Ulster Scots society is that these people spoke a variant of Scots from Scotland and had some of their own specific traditions. What these are, I don't know. The genetics for this is complicated because there is historical migration from Scotland to Ireland and vice versa, INCLUDING PRE-PLANTATION. There is genetic evidence of links between Down and Galloway. The haplogroups for Irish clans like McGuinness are also found in southwest Scotland. Similarly Dal Riada and the migrations between the Glens of Antrim -Ballycastle/Cushendall and Argyll. The religious affiliations doesn't really matter. You can see Scottish Gaelic Catholics in the Glens of Antrim, like those settled in the MacDonnell estate. You can also see Scottish Gaelic Presbyterians in Ireland. I point to McKinley, the American President.
Just some thoughts. 2A02:C7F:864B:CC00:448:3A75:4733:353 ( talk) 19:16, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
See also:
Talk:Plantation of Ulster#Additional sources,
Talk:Scotch-Irish Americans#Additional sources,
Talk:Scotch-Irish Canadians#Additional sources,
Talk:Scottish diaspora#Additional sources.
—
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼 20:23, 31 August 2023 (UTC); rev'd. 13:30, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
The lead says, "or, in North America, Scotch-Irish." I cannot access the source, but it seems that the normal term in Canada is Ulster-Scots and before that they were just referred to as Irish. TFD ( talk) 21:18, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
||
This page has archives. Sections older than 365 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present. |
I somehow to go the Ulster-Scots in Canada listings off of a link from a British Columbia politician (can't remember who - A.C. Elliott maybe - 4th Premier of British Columbia?). There are a number of distinguished gentlemen in the history of the province who are of what was called "Anglo-Irish"; one was Chartres Brew, who was the first Chief Constable of the Colony and the founder of the British Columbia Provincial Police; he was in the Royal Irish Constabulary prior to being assigned to BC; I gather that's not very likely a Catholic sort of Irish position; but it could be he was CoE rather than Presbyterian? I don't know at this point and will have to read up some before writing his biography for wikipedia. But when I do, does he qualify as Ulster-Scots or is there an Anglo-Irish designation that's different? Skookum1 05:20, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
The
Anglo-Irish were an eighteenth and nineteenth century phenomenon. The community in the Pale was entirely different being as it was from the original
Norman invasion of Ireland. The nearest this latter community got to an "Anglo" definition was from the 1580s, when it began to describe itself as the
Old English community. I hope this clarifies things somewhat.
193.1.172.138 23:58, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
The Anglo-Irish were an eighteenth and nineteenth century phenomenon As where the scots-Irish or ulster scots. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 51.37.254.47 ( talk) 22:38, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
What exactly is Protestant Scottish traditional music? As someone who has played Gaelic Traditional Music (Scottish/Irish/Manx/Cape Breton) for 10 years, I have never heard of this genre and am interested to learn more. I suggest deleting this. I also know many Prodestants from Ulster who play Irish/Scottish trad music and doubt that you can desect Ulster Scots, Irish, Scottish, Scottish Protestants, Scottish hythens, and Scottish Catholics along music lines. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zimmer79 ( talk • contribs) 19:35, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
The definition is quite elementary... Irish/Scottish traditional music plus a lambeg drum = Scottish Protestant traditional music!
92.235.178.44 (
talk) 14:44, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
That's not Ulster-Scots that's Irish and Scottish music respectively, you're trying to invent a genre that doesn't exist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 51.37.254.47 ( talk) 22:39, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
I know there was an earlier discussion of a misused flag image, but I'm wondering why all the flags are currently even in this article. They don't seem to illustrate the article in any way, but just fill space. I think they should be removed. There is no official flag for Ulster Scots identity as much as some people would wish there were. — ★ Parsa ☞ talk 16:34, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
Flag icons may be relevant in some subject areas, where the subject actually represents that country or nationality – such as military units or national sports teams. ... Terms such as "country" and "nation" as used [here] should be understood to also apply to other uses of flags, such as national subdivisions. Ulster Scots are not the repesenatives of any jurisdiction.
Use a historical flag and associated country name when they have at least a semi-officially applicable rationale to use them. For example, in lists of Olympic medalists, the USSR flag and country name should be used for reporting before 1992, not those of the Russian Federation or the CIS.Nothing like that applies here, to create a big vertical gallery of flags, as Ulster Scots are not formal representatives, like a sports team, of anywhere or "anywhen" to which those flags pertain.
It may in some narrow military history circumstances be appropriate to use flags, as they were used at the time being written about, including naval ensigns.... An example might be an in-depth exploration of a famous battle involving numerous forces with known flags; such flags might be used in summary tables to make it clearer which force was being referred to for a particular detail.Ulster Scots are not a military unit, and this is nothing like use of small identifying flags in a table.
Entities without flags until after a certain point in time: Some subnational entities have not had flags until recently (e.g. the Welsh flag has only been official since 1959). While this flag can still represent Wales generally, it should not be used to represent the country when the context is specifically about a time period predating the flag.Ulster Scots have no flag that pertains to them in particular at all, and do not form a jurisdiction of any kind, much less a sub-national political entity to which a flag applies, now or ever.
Political issues: Beware of political pitfalls, and listen to concerns raised by other editors. Some flags are (sometimes or always) political statements. Everything about the flag [mis]usage you're trying to insist on is politically laden, from applying a traditional flag of Ireland to people mostly in Northern Ireland, to using an unofficial Ulster flag that is a Unionist symbol, to applying a Scottish flag to people only descended multi-generationally from Scots, to adding the flag of England which really has nothing to do with Ulster Scots or Ulster at all (the English flag is not the Union Jack). And you are certainly not "listen[ing] to concerns raised by other editors" so far.
Use of flags for non-sovereign states and nations: ... In general, if a flag is felt to be necessary, it should be that of the sovereign state, but Ulster Scots are not a sovereign state, and they cross multiple sovereign states even in their home area. That section of MOS:FLAGS even addresses the UK in particular, suggesting that sometimes (usually not) flags for NI, Scotland, Wales, and England are separably useful in an article, but it does not do so for ethno-sociological groups like Ulster Scots. Back to one of these flags in particular:
Some flags are politically contentious – take care to avoid using them in inappropriate contexts. Some examples are: ... Use of the Ulster Banner to represent Northern Ireland in inappropriate contexts. This is actually worse, using it to represent people who are not even limited to Northern Ireland but also found in the RoI, especially Donegal. See also
Avoid flag usage, especially to present a point of view, that is likely to raise editorial controversy over political or other factual matters about a biography subject.This is clearly politicised and has raised editorial controversy; there's no reason to think this MoS principle doesn't apply to mass-biographical articles and only to individual bios.
Inappropriate use: Do not emphasize nationality without good reason. Wikipedia is not a place for nationalistic pride. Clear FAIL on that count.
Flags are visually striking, and placing a national flag next to something can make its nationality or location seem to be of greater significance than other things. ... Emphasizing the importance of a person's citizenship or nationality above their other qualities risks violating Wikipedia's "Neutral point of view" policy.This clearly pertains even more to applying flags to entire groups of people.
Do not use a flag when a picture of the subject is not available: A flag (or other symbolic image) should not be used as an image placeholder. That's basically what's going on here. Because of MOS:NOETHNICGALLERIES, you are trying to just "decorate" the article by jamming images into it, and have inappropriately selected flags, which are subject to a lot of "regulation" on Wikipedia that you've not bothered to read.
Do not use subnational flags without direct relevance: Subnational flags (regions, cities, etc.) should generally be used only when directly relevant to the article. Such flags are rarely recognizable by the general public, detracting from any shorthand utility they might have, and are rarely closely related to the subject of the article.We've already covered this above, but in short it is not possible for these flags to be directly relative to a group of people scattered over the entire north of the island of Ireland, of mixed political loyalties and citizenship, and of completely different family-historical backgrounds; the only thing they have in common is some ancestry from Scotland since the Early Modern period (and not from culturally/ethnically homogenous parts of Scotland; Highlanders are largely of Gaelic and Norse extraction, and Lowlanders largely Anglo-Saxon and Norman, but both supplied large numbers of immigrants to north Ireland).
Do not use supranational flags without direct relevance. This doesn't pertain in a literal sense, but it does in an in-spirit on, since you are attempting to use these flags as catch-all symbols for diverse people who cross national boundaries; essentially making up a supranational use for these flags.
Do not rewrite history: Flags should not be used to misrepresent the nationality of a historical figure, event, object, etc. Political boundaries change, often over the span of a biographical article subject's lifetime. Where ambiguity or confusion could result, it is better not to use a flag at all. These flags do misrepresent nationality, and the actual nationalities to which any given historical Ulster Scot, or the Ulster Scots as a group, has obviously changed over time (plus some of the flags you're defending the use of are not official symbols at all).
Flags make simple, blunt statements about nationality, while words can express the facts with more complexity.That's the nutshell summary of the overall issue here.
This page in a nutshell: While icons can be useful in Wikipedia articles in some circumstances, there are also problems associated with their misapplication and overuse.This is followed by a definition,
icons encompasses any small images, making it clear that the rules do not apply to larger images. Possibly the community shares your view, but until the Manual of Style is changed what matters is the guidelines as they're written. Dan Bloch ( talk) 20:33, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
To clarify, I want to stress here that MOS:FLAGS is NOT a rule! Really don't know why there are people who still don't get that. T v x1 08:24, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
Should this article include the Royal Standard of Ireland, the traditional provincial flag of Ulster, the Scottish Saltire flag, and the flag of England (as shown in this version of the article) to illustrate and provide a visual representation of the ancestral countries/provinces of the Ulster Scots? This has been extensively discussed above, but there seem to be too few editors involved yet to put the matter to rest with a clear enough consensus, pro or con, to move on. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 06:34, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
This page appears problematic. Is there actual evidence that this identity exists historically? The reason I ask is because I cannot imagine that historically people referred to themselves as /Ulster Scots/. The idea of Ulster Scots appears to be a modern term applied to the group of people who came from Scotland to Ireland in the plantations or time period after. I suspect that when these people arrived in Ireland that they referred to themselves as Scottish and had a Scottish culture then eventually as Irish as they assimilated - I imagine this is difficult to comprehend nowadays as the communities for which /Ulster Scots/ are associated is generally Unionist/Loyalist and British. However, only after the partitioning of Ireland and the creation of N.Ireland do you tend to see individuals call themselves British or Ulster Scots. In the 19th century, you will see Protestant organisations referenced as Irish or Ireland. The largest unionist party in Ireland pre-partition was called the 'IRISH Unionists'. If you read any of the Ordnance Survey Memoirs for Ireland, for areas of historical Scottish settlement, you will see the people referred to in relation to their Scottish manner or habits. Their cultural habits may have been different but the people were Irish by nationality and regarded themselves as so. There are countless examples of this. This page appears to try to almost paint Ulster Scots as a polar opposite to Irish, like it's a nationality. It isn't. The people were culturally separate. However, given Scottish traditions (including the Lowlands) there is likely some overlap with Irish traditions. In the rebellion of 1641, the Scottish were said to be spared by the Irish rebels due to the similar affinities - the wikipedia article for the 1641 rebellion even states this.
It appears to me that the Ulster Scots which is outlined by the Ulster Scots society is that these people spoke a variant of Scots from Scotland and had some of their own specific traditions. What these are, I don't know. The genetics for this is complicated because there is historical migration from Scotland to Ireland and vice versa, INCLUDING PRE-PLANTATION. There is genetic evidence of links between Down and Galloway. The haplogroups for Irish clans like McGuinness are also found in southwest Scotland. Similarly Dal Riada and the migrations between the Glens of Antrim -Ballycastle/Cushendall and Argyll. The religious affiliations doesn't really matter. You can see Scottish Gaelic Catholics in the Glens of Antrim, like those settled in the MacDonnell estate. You can also see Scottish Gaelic Presbyterians in Ireland. I point to McKinley, the American President.
Just some thoughts. 2A02:C7F:864B:CC00:448:3A75:4733:353 ( talk) 19:16, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
See also:
Talk:Plantation of Ulster#Additional sources,
Talk:Scotch-Irish Americans#Additional sources,
Talk:Scotch-Irish Canadians#Additional sources,
Talk:Scottish diaspora#Additional sources.
—
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼 20:23, 31 August 2023 (UTC); rev'd. 13:30, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
The lead says, "or, in North America, Scotch-Irish." I cannot access the source, but it seems that the normal term in Canada is Ulster-Scots and before that they were just referred to as Irish. TFD ( talk) 21:18, 20 February 2024 (UTC)