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A massive chunk of information seems to have been carelessly lost in this edit. I am talking about the section on External Links in particular. This is referenced as [[WP:MOS#External Links]] from a number of places. E.g., the editing help, the external links page and so on. Given the amount of editing that has gone on, I'm not going to do an immediate revert to the version from November 24 before that edit, but I think it might be a good idea, at least until the material is moved elsewhere and/or correctly linked. Comments anyone? Mozzerati 10:01, 2005 Jan 22 (UTC)
I can't see any guide to when to write numbers as words. Am I missing something?
The style that I picked up somewhere is to always use numerals when a number is being referred to, such as he lived at No. 3, or It is at entry 8, but to use words otherwise, if the value is less than 13. Thus He had eight children, and She is 23 years old.
Comments? Philip J. Rayment 12:25, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Personally, I tend to prefer writing almost everything out as words. Since the style guide doesn't say we shouldn't write out "six million", I'll continue to do so. — Simetrical 20:21, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Maurren, where did you move this to? [1]. The reason I ask is that I felt Jeff Q's comment was worth keeping. SlimVirgin 10:31, Jan 29, 2005 (UTC)
The statement requesting SI units seems a bit strong. While a good guideline for most cases, there are fields of study and practice where other units, whether from inertia or convenience, are widely used either alongside or in place of SI units. For example, in talking about distances within the solar system, millions of kilometers can be reported, but the astronomical unit is such a convenient yardstick that it, too, is widely used. The world petroleum industry works on barrels, not liters, and when talking about petroleum production, the barrel is the unit to discuss it in. Even in the most metrified of countries, the weather is reported in degrees Celsius rather than Kelvin.
There should be some statement that when common practice uses other-than-SI units, then those units are acceptable. (I see this analogous to the Jimmy Carter vs. James Earl Carter example. Shimmin 14:02, Feb 4, 2005 (UTC)
In what order should objects and subjects in a photograph be named? I suggest that in photographs depicting more than one significant individual arranged in rows, the people should be named left-to-right, top-to-bottom (for Left-to-right languages). If they are arranged in a circle, they should be named clockwise, starting at the top. If they are named in some other order, that order should be specified in the capton; for example "John (right) and Ann (left) in front of their house". The same rule seems to make sense for photographs of houses, geographical landmarks and other objects. Pgan002 05:44, 2005 Feb 2 (UTC)
(copied info from the Village pump)
This is a subject brought to my attention when I studied what I saw at Talk:Cowhand
I suggest that we need a talk in Wikipedia's manual of style about the kind of correctness being used in Wikipedia. A few possible choices include political and traditional. Any comments?? Georgia guy 16:29, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Most of the rules in this guide would give way to the principle of accurate quotation. To take the example just above, if a written source says "He had 8 children" or "She is twenty-three years old", then the quotation should preserve the choice of the original. I'd like to warn overeager style mavens not to change quotations. Is there agreement with adding something like this (perhaps under the "Usage and spelling" heading, where it would come up most often): "When a written source is being directly quoted (as opposed to paraphrased), the quotation should conform exactly to the original text, even if the source does not follow the style prescribed by this manual." JamesMLane 08:52, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I agree that it's usually preferable to stick to the original spelling and usage within quotations - but I would not have a hard and fast rule. Unless there are special reasons to keep the original style, correcting misspellings, improving punctuation and correcting grammar are all acceptable, jguk 20:44, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Oral transcripts are definitely different. Ask any journalist—things people say are usually all but rewritten. People tend to speak in a much less clear and more fractured way than they write, so writing down every pause, stumble, and misspeaking looks very odd. — Simetrical ( talk) 18:21, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
We (jguk and I) talked about this on IRC, and we agreed that the most fair way to deal with the English spelling/punctuation differences:
Topics not relating to either should be "first-come-first-used"—that is, the original style of the first major contributor should be kept. Neutrality talk 06:22, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)
This gets difficult when there's any ambiguity, which there often will be. For example, I was recently asked to change an article I'd written on philosopher Bernard Williams. I wrote in AE, and was asked to change it to BE, because he was born in the UK. However, though he was born and worked for many years in the UK, he also worked for many years (though not as many) in the U.S., sold more of his books in the U.S., and they were written in AE, and so on. He also had no sense of himself as tied to any one nationality, so to make a switch to BE felt a little false. I'm in the process of writing about Ernest Gellner, who spent his entire academic career in the UK apart from a couple of years before he died, but who was born in Paris and regarded himself as Czech because his family was. So would that have to be written in BE? I think I prefer the first major contributer policy. By and large, that will amount to the same policy that you've proposed because subjects that are indisputably and only British are likely to be written by Brits. Also, your policy is going to mean people will have to investigate the style used in any given country before they can write a subject related to it. SlimVirgin 06:41, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)
I think I'm going to have to declare everyone officially blind. The page long "Usage and spelling" section of the MoS is all about AE vs BE. -- Cyrius| ✎ 06:55, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I thought there were certain things that had to be used, like U.S. instead of US, in order for certains links to work, is that right? Also, if AE abbreviates it that way, shouldn't that be respected? I think all these issues have been discussed on previous MoS talk pages. SlimVirgin 07:12, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)
OK, the style guide doesn't say exactly what Neutrality said. About style for topics on the Americas, I don't feel strongly either way. My point was that the proposal is essentially the same as is now in the style guide, so the proposed wording would have little or no practical effect. Maurreen 14:09, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The MOS is not explicit about whether quotations may, or should, be italicized. It would make sense to italicize quotations about one sentence or longer, embedded in the paragraph, and maybe even indented quotations. Pgan002 05:25, 2005 Feb 2 (UTC)
<blockquote>
tag, which was designed for this purpose, and is purposefully allowed in Wikitext. The use of italics is best reserved for the source of the quotation, for example:HTH -- Phil | Talk 13:20, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)"There were a lot of people doing a lot of things…"—Some Book or Other by Some Author
<blockquote>
affects both left and right margins, whilst using colons only affects the left margin. --
Phil |
Talk 18:09, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)
For comparison's sake, here are two blocks of text. The first uses the colon markup, and the second uses <blockquote>.
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
Note in particular the right margin. This effect, needless to say, is increased substantially when the tags are nested—some of the comments in this heading are indented six times over, which would look like this with <blockquote>:
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
Also, take a look at the edit window for this. Note that the tag produces two line breaks, so you have to place your text right after the tag rather than adding line breaks in the edit window to get it to show up normally when viewed. It is true that the colon markup is pretty bad HTML, though—is there currently any way to get blocks of text indented with style sheets or something? — Simetrical ( talk) 18:44, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
With colon indent. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
Withou colon indent. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
This thread started with Pgan002's observation that the MoS was "not explicit about whether quotations may, or should, be italicized." Pgan leaned toward italicizing but was apparently willing to go along with not italicizing, which was everyone else's preference. On that basis, I'm changing the MoS passage that now reads "Since quotations are already marked by quotation marks or indentations, they need not be put into italics." I'll make it more explicit by changing "need not" to "should not". I'll leave it to others to decide whether the MoS should mention the availability of the <blockquote> tag (right now it doesn't), or even go beyond mentioning it and characterize it as preferred. JamesMLane 02:15, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Plus, the MoS is a guideline in the first place, and there are very, very few cases where it's necessary to break that rule. – flamurai ( t) 13:24, Feb 12, 2005 (UTC)"Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal."
Ah, it's just occurred to me what's happening here, and it's only just come to me after months of looking at this page! In the UK, "should" in the context of what you added means there is a compulsion. That is, "should not be put into italics" is synonymous with "should never be put into italics". I think I'm right in saying that "should" doesn't tend to have that meaning in American English.
Maybe replace "should not be put into italics" with "are not usually put into italics"? I think a similar point arises for the rest of your proposed amendments that include the word "should" and suitable adjustments should (compulsion) be made to them. Kind regards, jguk 23:52, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I understand the word should in this contextin the same way as jguk, would "ought" be a less ambiguous word? Philip Baird Shearer 01:59, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The style guide table of contents has some weird extra spaces and I don't know why. Maurreen 02:07, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The main issue I wanted to solve with my lengthy classical music titles diatribe a while back is the incorrect italicization of titles of classical music pieces named by form (generic titles).
If no one objects, I would like to add the following item to the list after, "There are a few cases in which the title should be in neither italics nor quotation marks:"
I would also like to alter a sentence in Wikipedia:Manual of Style (titles), specifically changing:
to
(or something similar... if anyone has a better way to phrase it without the parenthetical).
Any objections? Affirmations?
– flamurai ( t) 20:36, Feb 13, 2005 (UTC)
I removed that when writing about the EU, we should use BE, as the EU is not a "topic specific to a particular country." That looks like an attempt to impose BE on a bunch of countries where English is not the first language and where spellings of English words vary. Please let's not impose too much rigidity on editors regarding what type of English they have to use. The main thing is that it should be consistent within articles. SlimVirgin 03:53, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)
I'd have no problem with that wording. So long as someone wanting to write about some general EU-related topic isn't restricted. I just noticed your -isation though; -ization is also acceptable as BE. SlimVirgin 05:26, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)
Yes, exactly. We've had our linguistic history rewritten by the evil Microsoft. I often slip -ize words into articles with BE though, as a little act of defiance, though I won't say where, in case others go on a hunt-and-destroy mission. ;-) SlimVirgin 06:20, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)
This is verging on an extreme and bizarre form of nationalism. Why on earth would any subject about Europe have to be in British English? And not all non-British forms of English are American-format. Zoney, why would you find it "grating" to see Germany written about with the word color in it, instead of colour? That makes no sense to me at all. SlimVirgin 08:48, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)
I agree that if we're writing an article that is specificially about (actually about, not just involving) an EU institution or treaty, it does no harm for the article to be in British English (why Irish though: is it different?). But I would want some kind of clear wording or disclaimer to make sure it didn't extend beyond that, and it shouldn't include articles related to the European Union in general, or to countries belonging to the European Union. SlimVirgin 10:48, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)
What is the difference between "article on EU treaties, institutions and directives" and all the other examples in that section? Why is a "clear wording or disclaimer" needed for "article on EU treaties, institutions and directives" and not for "article on Ayers Rock" or "article on the American Civil War"? Philip Baird Shearer 16:07, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
There's been no further discussion regarding the disputed sentences (in bold below). We should discuss whether to have them in or out (neither are in at present); and if in, how expressed. They're both in the usage and spelling section:
(1) Articles that focus on a topic specific to a particular English-speaking country should generally conform to the spelling of that country. Disputed sentence: Note however: A person does not count as a "topic specific to" a country.
(2) Article on European Union treaties, institutions and directives: British and Irish usage and spelling
My concern with (1) is that we shouldn't get into a situation where people are "owned" by certain countries that they have been born in or lived in. When dealing with people, the first-major-contributer rule should apply. An exception might be if the person is a current political office holder, but there's probably no need to spell that out, as the office would count as an institution belonging to that country e.g. George Bush qua president of the U.S. But I'd hate to see us have to write about e.g. Robert Burns in British English just because he happened to live in the UK, particularly as his writing is not in British English and he didn't regard himself as British. People of artistic and literary merit belong to the world, not to any specfic country and to conclude otherwise is to succumb to provincialism and nationalism. Would Benjamin Zephaniah have to be written about in British English, where he was raised, or in Jamaican English, where he was born? Do we have to count the number of years someone has lived or worked in a country? For these reasons, I would very much like to see a clear disclaimer that people may be written about in any style. What do others think?
Re: (2) This seems like another attempt to extend British English beyond its borders. Like (1) above, here's no need for it. It's instruction creep. SlimVirgin 03:31, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)
It's the "topics pertaining to" business that too's vague. Why should an article about Germany be in any particular form of English? SlimVirgin 11:47, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)
It shouldn't default to any style of English, and I'd appreciate it if you'd stop assuming that anything that isn't British English must be American English, because that ignores all the other countries that have their own style and dialect. The rule should be the first-major-contributer, then there is no default. But it's not acceptable to say articles about Germany must be written in BE; in fact, it's absurd. SlimVirgin 12:46, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)
Option (2) UK/Irish English is what the EU uses. for all these documents. It is not "This seems like another attempt to extend British English beyond its borders." It is to use the English which is used by the institution and the native speakers within that institution use and all documents which come out of that institution. If I was to write a piece on the US constitution I would not be surprised if someone changed all my spellings from au/ie/nz/sa/uk spellings to American. BTW
EU directive should be expanded to "EU regulations, directives, decisions, recommendations and opinions".
Philip Baird Shearer 17:54, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The examples were inserted on 7th and various modifications were made to the list between then and the 15 Feb when SV removed EU. If it had been removed in the first day or so then I agree it should be discuss it before putting it back. But if over a week is not long enough, how long does an item have to be on the page before removing it should be discussed?
Zoney would like a broader definition of EU, but as he seems to be the only one arguing like that, he seems to be willing to have a fall back position of EU institutions (rather than nothing). As in this case no one seems to be arguing that topics about the institutions of the EU should not be in Irish English, why delete the whole bullet point? As all that is in dispute is the scope of what should be covered by the term EU institutions, surly this can better be handled by editing it and discussion rather than deletion of the bp? Philip Baird Shearer 15:56, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Hi, SlimVirgin. Re your addition of "A person does not count as a "topic specific to" a country" -- I see where you're coming from, with your comments above about Williams and Gellner, but I think the general rule *should* be that U.S. writers and presidents get U.S. English and that UK authors and MPs get the UK flavour. There'll be cases where it's not so black-and-white -- Gellner, probably, though not Williams, I think -- and that's where "first major contributor" kicks in. Can we have a go at rewording that addition? –Hajor 04:04, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Jguk, Hajor and I were discussing how to reword the "people are not topics" issue. Could you join in this discussion instead of deleting it entirely? I'm certainly happy to see people who hold office, like your George Bush example, be written about in the style of the country they hold office in. I just want to avoid a general philosophy of people being "owned" by certain countries; and also how do we judge: is it place of birth, how long they've resided? I'd like to suggest sticking to the idea of holding or having held office; or being in some other way inextricably linked to a country e.g. Shakespeare linked to UK or Robert Frost to U.S. But if the word "inextricably" doesn't apply, then the first-major-contributer rule should determine style. SlimVirgin 07:28, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)
Jguk, you've reverted again, LOL. You make very radical changes when you want to, but revert anyone else who does the same. I'm not having a go at you, just smiling a little, and I won't revert the revert. I'm already sensing problems with determining where a person is domiciled. Are we going to have find out which country they pay their taxes to? And Bernard Williams: living in the U.S. but domiciled in the UK? Difficult. SlimVirgin 07:55, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)
Zoney, it depends how you define famous. The article that got me thinking about this is Bernard Williams, who wasn't famous but was known within academic circles. He was born in the UK; lived for many years in the UK and in America; worked in both countries; though for longer in the UK; was working and living in the U.S. when he died; and sold most of his books in the U.S. I wrote his page in U.S. English. I was asked to change it to British English by User:Albion, who I believe was a sock for User:Jguk. Apologies if I'm wrong about that. I feel it's nationalistic to act like that about an academic who I know saw himself as an internationalist, so it's this kind of example that I'd like to see excluded from any guideline. SlimVirgin 08:16, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)
I don't agree that Bernard Williams was an exception. It's very common for people to move around the world, which is why I find this nationalistic tone so inappropriate, particularly for Wikipedia, and actually almost offensive. I've lived all over the world, in English and non-English speaking countries, and I can't stand any form of nationalism or provincialism, so that's where I'm coming from with this. Wikipedians should be allowed to express themselves in whichever style of English they find most comfortable, so long as they cite sources, check their facts, and don't write personal essays. Apart from that we shouldn't be restricting people, and this idea that certain persons belong to certain countries is appalling. You should bear in mind the MoS isn't policy, so people are free to ignore it, and if you make it absurd, they will. SlimVirgin 10:54, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)
Zoney, when a person writes in Canadian English, they're not using American English, even though that's what it might look like to you. I'm asking you to accept that there are a wide variety of styles of English, not just BE versus AE. I think the idea that people belong to certain countries is unacceptably nationalistic, so I would like to include a rider to that section that this is not what is meant by a "topic specific to". I'm not suggesting an addition, simply a clarification of what is already there. I've given you examples of how confusing the person=country guideline would become, and I can give you more. It would lead to nothing but arguments, so all I'm suggesting is that we make it explicit that the first-major-contributer rule apply to people unless they hold office. That currently is the case, but I would like to clarify it. SlimVirgin 08:20, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)
Hajor, you mentioned the U.N. as a possible model. I'd like to learn more. Do you know of any U.N. style references, especially online? Maurreen 07:45, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Is the MoS actually policy, as I understood it was not. If it is policy, then how can it be changed by only one or two editors? What is the policy about changing policy, does anyone know? SlimVirgin 11:52, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)
As I recall, this was not policy. Did I misunderstand that or has there been a change? If it's policy, then isn't there a procedure that needs to be gone through to make changes? SlimVirgin 13:16, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)
Jguk, it was you who added that policy category to the page on October 31, 2004. So how did you know it was policy? SlimVirgin 13:29, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)
But Jguk calling it policy doesn't make it policy. Either we have a case here of a guideline which anyone may edit, because it doesn't matter much; or we have a case of a policy which, while not binding on editors, does incline them toward certain positions, in which case we shouldn't be changing it without a broader consensus. I don't mind one way or the other; I'd just like to know which it is. When I asked Jguk how he knew it was policy, he referred me to the page's category. Yet when I looked to see who had added the category, it was Jguk. SlimVirgin 13:50, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)
It says on the policy page that the Manual of Style is a guideline. See Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines. It has the same status as, for example, Wikipedia:Cite sources. SlimVirgin 13:59, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)
Zoney and Snowspinner, I've removed the policy category and made the sentence that says it's policy invisible. Jguk needs to say on what basis he added the category. I'll see whether there's something in the talk archives about it. SlimVirgin 14:07, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)
I agree that this is better described as a guideline rather than policy. But changing his page is not like changing most articles, because it is used and abused on a daily basis in many arguments over style all over Wikipedia. If it is going to be changed there should be a consensus before it is changed. For example SlimVirgin deleted the EU entry long before there was agreement to do so. And despite a revert (which shows there is no consensus) she had deleted it again. If people do that, then this page becomes unstable and can not be used as a reference on other page in style arguments, because it will not be stable enough to be used for that. Philip Baird Shearer 17:12, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
You are out of line calling this policy, and Philip, do NOT revert again. Jguk, you took it upon yourself to insert this into the policy category, then when I asked you for evidence, you cited that category. That is dishonest. It is listed as a guideline, not official policy, not semi-policy, not any kind of policy.
A very small number of men seem to have taken ownership of this page and that can't be allowed to continue. For one thing, there's no point in trying to insert your own idiosyncratic views here, because all that will happen is that editors will regard the MoS as irrelevant, so it has to conform to some extent with accepted practise. I am asking these men to stop being bullies, and to allow other people to take part in editing this page. If you want the MoS to become policy, you will have to seek a broader consensus. SlimVirgin 00:47, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)
Your edit's much better, James, thank you. I don't know whether the sex is relevant or not. I know only that there are two male editors who appear (stress on "appear") to be standing guard over this article, and as a woman whose edits keep being reverted, I don't like it. I stressed that they are men because I know that Maurreen has paid close attention to this page too, but she hasn't acted like a bully. SlimVirgin 05:56, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)
Jguk, when you say "it has been accepted . . . that this page is policy," you mean it's been accepted by a very small number of people. Two or three people can't make a page policy. The page also says editors don't have to stick to the suggestions it makes, so calling it policy would contradict that. I knew it was Dcoetzee who made the change to the text, but it was you who added the category, yet when I asked you how you knew it was policy, you referred me to the category as though it was independent evidence. As for User:Albion, if that was not you, then I do apologize. I believed it was you because his only edits were to Bernard Williams, changing it from American to British English, and he referred to a guideline that articles about a person should be in the English of that person's country, even though that's not what the MoS says; but even though he got it wrong, he clearly wasn't a new user.
As for the EU addition, I understand that was not discussed before being added. A couple of editors here seem to take the view that they may add things without discussion, but others may not. I ask only that this attitude change. Many thanks, SlimVirgin 07:57, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)
The problem is that simply deciding here to call it policy doesn't make it so. I suspect the only reason you've not been challenged before is that most editors don't read this page, but if it ever came to a mediation or arbitration case over a style issue, then this page not being policy would come to light. If you want to make it policy, I'd have no objection, but then we'd have to get a wider consensus from the community, and I'd be surprised if we'd get it because people would see it as instruction creep. Just because something is only a guideline doesn't mean it doesn't have force. Wikipedia:Cite sources is only a guideline, for example, but most people will supply a reference if challenged. Which parts were you thinking of wording in a more flexible way? SlimVirgin 08:28, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)
It isn't true that the only policies are, or should be, about behavior and no one has argued that. The two major policies are NPOV and No original research, both about content. The MoS is not policy, never was, and is not regarded as such by acclamation. SlimVirgin 21:50, Feb 18, 2005 (UTC)
Maybe we can break the impasse by referring to this page as "official style"? Then we advise the reader that "this page is official style. Whilst we prefer you to edit using this style, don't worry, nothing will happen to you if you don't, and the content of your contributions is more important than whether you take note of this page or not. However, in time, copyediting Wikipedians will edit articles to comply with the Wikipedia official style. Please accept this as a good way to improve readability of Wikipedia as a whole - and, in particular, you should not revert them".
I think a compromise on "official style" may both satisfy the requirements that this page has to be adhered to, whilst also making it clear that non-compliance is not a behavioural issue that could get you banned, jguk 22:53, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I think you misunderstand how Wikipedia policy is made. It is a somewhat murky custom ("procedure" is going too far). Generally it is what Wikipedians accept it to be. Policy can be made by general acceptance of a principle - indeed, whilst some policies, such as the 3RR, have become accepted only after a vote, most have not. In this case, Wikipedians do generally accept the Manual of Style as a point of reference for style and accept what it says. Also, there was no dispute when the Manual was amended to explicitly state that it is policy. (The text of the manual strongly implied that it had authority before then.) The conclusion is simple: it is policy. Your removing of the references to it being policy have not achieved consensus (and also you seem to be willing to support it having official status), and I therefore intend to replace the references to it being so. If you wish to bring a poll to declassify it as policy, or make a formal proposal that the Manual of Style ceases to have any official status, then do so. But IMO that would be very unwise, fuel edit wars, and distract many people from more productive development of Wikipedia, jguk 09:45, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
jguk, if you want to use "International English" what dictionary, stylebook, etc., do you have in mind? Maurreen 08:01, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
If it's decided that this page is not policy, it would only be proper to announce it big and often in order to dispel most Wikipedians' misconception that it is policy, jguk 19:50, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I disagree that most Wikipedians think this page is policy. I'd guess that most don't know it exists, and we haven't decided it's not policy. It just isn't, and it never was. SlimVirgin 22:03, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)
This page is now about 46 kb. I suggest that the sections on national varieties of English be split to a different page. Maurreen 08:01, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
If the style guide is going to mandate what national varieties of English are appropriate for the European Union, then to be parallel, it would also mandate what national varieties of English are appropriate for the Organization of American States, etc. Is that desired? Maurreen 17:17, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Heh. Maurreen floats an interesting idea, but a flawed one, I think. Here's a couple of my ideas:
First major edit (and perhaps with a remmed-out flag at the top to try and halt incremental dialect creep). That's the fairest way to do this. –Hajor 21:02, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
OK, with your permission, I'll change "European" in my comment above to "EU" and apologise for my sloppy writing. Your point about the "European Union using British/Irish English officially" is also valid, but I take it as meaning that the *institutions* of the EU use B/I Eng. It strikes me as something of a stretch to want to construe that as in some way meaning that B/I Eng has any sort of official status domestically within the individual member states. Sorry if I appeared to be rubbishing your ideas; I wrote that reply in response to Maurreen's, only you got in ahead of me. –Hajor 21:34, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I disagree with the UK so-called "dependencies" being slipped in, and Malta and Cyprus? Objection. Also, as the EU claim was inserted without discussion, I'm removing it again until the wording is agreed upon. Similarly, with my insertion that "people are not topics". We can't have different rules for different editors. SlimVirgin 22:02, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)
Here is the disputed claim:
article on European Union treaties, institutions and directives: British and Irish usage and spelling
I dispute this. The European Union does not belong to Britain and Ireland. Editors of all nationalities edit the English Wikipedia, including editors from continental Europe. They should be allowed to use whatever style of English they feel most comfortable with so long as it's consistent within an article. SlimVirgin 22:09, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)
I am allowed to dispute edits, Zoney, as is anyone. The page says edits should not be made without discussion and are likely to be removed if they are, and the EU edit was made without discussion. Also, the EU uses BE only in the sense that the translators are British. If, as you say, it is completely counter-intuitive to use anything other than BE, then the editors who write these articles are likely to feel the same way, so there won't be a problem. My objection is simply that we shouldn't try to force it on anyone. There are quite a few continental European editors at Wikipedia. They have a hard enough time writing in a second or foreign language and don't need further obstacles in the form of having to watch which style of English they write in. I feel you're introducing a false principle that, if an insitution's documents are written in a certain style, that style must be followed by Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not tied to any other institution. We are free agents. When I write about the German parliament, I don't have to write in German. SlimVirgin 01:06, Feb 18, 2005 (UTC)
If "European Union" is taken to mean the actual institution and machinations thereof - the judicature, bureaucracy and parliament, then I agree with Zoney that UK/Irish English is the most appropriate form of standard English to use. Philip Baird Shearer 00:48, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
This is my compromise proposal, a package deal:
The Organization for American States uses American English and it is based in the United States. Maurreen 05:53, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I think there are two separate issues here. The first are countries. Earlier in this section SV said "I agree that this is getting silly: to list certain institutions that must be written about in a certain style; to insist that Malta be written about in Maltese English." Yet if US articles are in US English and UK articles in UK English etc, why not Maltese articles in Maltese English? Which BTW in its formal form will be the same as most other Commonwealth countries which all have their local idiocincracies but are all very similar.
The EU is not just a free trade area it also involves pooled sovereignty in a way that no equivalent multinational institution does. This is why I think that it is an exception, and articles about EU institutions and their verbiage they should be in Irish English. However if people want the comfort blanket of saying "for balance" the English used by any multinational institution should be the guide for articles about that institution, I would not object, although I think it unnecessary Philip Baird Shearer 23:44, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Many people in Northen Ireland would identify with Ireland first, the EU second and not at all with the UK! In the UK, most people in Scotland are Scottish first, British second. It is the Scottish Nationalists policy to leave the UK but remain in the EU. Scotland can pull out of the UK more easily than the UK can pull out of the European Union. Just as with the US constitution, there currently no article of secession from the EU treaties or any agreed policy of how secession could be achieved. It has been added to the draft constitution [4], but there is no agreement yet to implement the EU DC. Philip Baird Shearer 15:59, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Here are two HMG Northern Ireland Executive briefing papers on subsidiarity in the EU:
And a speech by Christopher Patten, the EU External Relations Commissioner "Sovereignty, democracy and constitutions finding the right formula"
Unless there are any credible arguments against it, I am going to reinstate the EU line:
-- Philip Baird Shearer 21:13, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It seem very odd for articles on the EU to be in American English -- there are only two English-speaking countries in the EU (citizen of one, resident of the other, here; though in my experience, Sweden's a pretty close to being a third...), and English as an official working language of the EU, is decidedly British English. I don't know if it's necessary to make a hard and fast rule to this effect, but IMO it would be ridiculous to have a situation where someone deciding to write an article just north of the magic stub threshold on such a topic would bind all subsequent practice for all eternity, barring any possibility of compromise, logic, or emergent harmony with related articles, which is what some seem to be arguing for.
The OAS I can't speak to in any detail. Is it really a parallel case, or is this just transatlantic haggling in the spirit of Boeing vs. Airbus, and little bananas vs. big ones? I note that the majority of English-speaking countries in the OAS are... also British-English speaking. Does it have an official policy on working languages? Alai 08:15, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
By "credible arguments", I meant an example of an authoritative person arguing that there is no pooled sovereignty in the EU. To repeat what said before:
This discussion seems to have wandered from Maurreen's proposal. I thought her proposal related only to articles about the EU or the OAS, not about member countries. Someone starting an article about a particular cathedral in France or about a notable Brazilian musician could still use whichever form of English he or she preferred. At least, that's the way I think it should be. Maurreen, is that what you intended? If so, and the proposal applies only to articles about those transnational entities, we can figure that there won't be all that many such articles. JamesMLane 14:02, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It is OK with me! Philip Baird Shearer 09:15, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
OK, just to make sure ... I think this is something probably at least acceptable to most of us. Are there any major objections or suggested wording tweaks to the following?
I think the wording is fine. I'm not sure if these sentences are really needed in the Manual of Style, but IF it is decided to put them it, this wording is the only one I can imagine. Flo 07:08, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Flo, if you don't like them, please vote against rather than going along with it. SlimVirgin 07:35, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)
I think the latter is vaguely CogDissing, as it implies some large distinction between British and Canadian, and makes me automatically want to add "... and Jamaican, and Bahamian, and ...". Perhaps just saying "usage and spelling appropriate to one or more OAS member country", or something to that effect? Thus purely British tropes are by implication out, until Tony Blair negotiates that island (and change)'s accession... (Ideally one would presumably use as generally acceptable forms as possible, but the MoS already has such language, so needn't incorporate such a formula explicitly.) Alai 07:14, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Is this indeed wrapped up, or to we need to check for consensus, formally vote, engage in an impromptu revert-war, or some other time-hono(u)red Wikipedian ritual practice to denote the happy event? Alai 07:14, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I don't agree with it, as I've said several times. The second rule might clash with the "topic specific to" rule, because of Jamaica and other countries that follow BE. I don't think we have any right to split the world up in this way, and if you do it, you'll simply be making the MoS irrelevant, because people won't follow it. SlimVirgin 07:34, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)
OK, how about this? Again, as a package deal?
I have explained why the EU is different from other international organisations because of pooled sovereignty. No one has yet produced an example of an authoritative person arguing that there is no pooled sovereignty in the EU. Because of this pooled sovereignty, if an article is about a nation which uses the local English, then the EU as a sort of nation, should be treated the same and the EU's English is British/Irish English. I am sure that no one who accepts the concept of a locale would argue the South African articles specifically on SA topics should not be written in SA English. I have chosen SA as an example, because it has 12 offical languages of which English performs a similar role as that in the EU. I do not see the EU as any different. Equally because the EU is not a full blown nation, I would not go so far as to insist that all articles about anyone or thing in the EU is in EU English because that is not a step, but a whole staircase too far.
For this reason I think that the EU should be treated as a nation and not an international organization. Philip Baird Shearer 18:14, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Jguk, do not change this back again to claiming it's policy. I have no objection to you seeking to make it policy, though there are a few things I'd want to see changed before I'd support it. The only thing I ask is that you seek a broader consensus. A small group of five or so editors can't make that decision on their own. And anyway, adding the category doesn't do it. It's not classed as policy on the policy page so it's still going to count as a guideline no matter what you call it on this page. SlimVirgin 10:28, Feb 19, 2005 (UTC)
For a Manual of Style to work, it needs to be policy. That doesn't mean that you will get banned if you don't follow it (you can only get banned for behavioural issues). It does mean that if your edits are not in compliance with it, in due course copy-editing Wikipedians will alter them so that they do comply.
It needs to be policy for the following reasons:
Comments please? jguk 11:49, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I suppose the thing I don't understand about this conversation is the dictatorial desire to control how people write and to make it uniform across the whole encyclopedia. There's a lot of variation between articles in other areas: POVS, factual accuracy, whether sources are cited, grammar, quality of writing, image use, the way articles are structured. And yet when it comes to whether to write color or colour, you want absolute uniformity, with the world split into "with U/without U" spheres of influences, and wanting it to be policy, on a par with NPOV and no original research. If you read half the articles, and probably more than half, they contain serious errors of fact and grammar, both of which make Wikipedia look bad, and most don't have adequate references. Those errors are more important than whether we spell "recognize" with an s or a z. These tiny stylistic differences will never make us look bad, and probably won't even be noticed by many readers. And if they're noticed, all they communicate is that some of the authors of the article may have been British or American. But I don't see why that's a big deal.
Something that User:Albion, whoever he was, said to me regarding Bernard Williams was that it meant a lot to some people that articles related to the UK should be in British English, which is why I gave in. But I wonder why it should mean such a lot (and especially in articles not about the UK, but about Europe or whatever) and it would be good if someone could clearly explain it. Is it a fear that these spellings may die out otherwise? If I could understand it better, maybe I could get a handle on knowing how to approach the issue. SlimVirgin 12:02, Feb 19, 2005 (UTC)
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A massive chunk of information seems to have been carelessly lost in this edit. I am talking about the section on External Links in particular. This is referenced as [[WP:MOS#External Links]] from a number of places. E.g., the editing help, the external links page and so on. Given the amount of editing that has gone on, I'm not going to do an immediate revert to the version from November 24 before that edit, but I think it might be a good idea, at least until the material is moved elsewhere and/or correctly linked. Comments anyone? Mozzerati 10:01, 2005 Jan 22 (UTC)
I can't see any guide to when to write numbers as words. Am I missing something?
The style that I picked up somewhere is to always use numerals when a number is being referred to, such as he lived at No. 3, or It is at entry 8, but to use words otherwise, if the value is less than 13. Thus He had eight children, and She is 23 years old.
Comments? Philip J. Rayment 12:25, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Personally, I tend to prefer writing almost everything out as words. Since the style guide doesn't say we shouldn't write out "six million", I'll continue to do so. — Simetrical 20:21, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Maurren, where did you move this to? [1]. The reason I ask is that I felt Jeff Q's comment was worth keeping. SlimVirgin 10:31, Jan 29, 2005 (UTC)
The statement requesting SI units seems a bit strong. While a good guideline for most cases, there are fields of study and practice where other units, whether from inertia or convenience, are widely used either alongside or in place of SI units. For example, in talking about distances within the solar system, millions of kilometers can be reported, but the astronomical unit is such a convenient yardstick that it, too, is widely used. The world petroleum industry works on barrels, not liters, and when talking about petroleum production, the barrel is the unit to discuss it in. Even in the most metrified of countries, the weather is reported in degrees Celsius rather than Kelvin.
There should be some statement that when common practice uses other-than-SI units, then those units are acceptable. (I see this analogous to the Jimmy Carter vs. James Earl Carter example. Shimmin 14:02, Feb 4, 2005 (UTC)
In what order should objects and subjects in a photograph be named? I suggest that in photographs depicting more than one significant individual arranged in rows, the people should be named left-to-right, top-to-bottom (for Left-to-right languages). If they are arranged in a circle, they should be named clockwise, starting at the top. If they are named in some other order, that order should be specified in the capton; for example "John (right) and Ann (left) in front of their house". The same rule seems to make sense for photographs of houses, geographical landmarks and other objects. Pgan002 05:44, 2005 Feb 2 (UTC)
(copied info from the Village pump)
This is a subject brought to my attention when I studied what I saw at Talk:Cowhand
I suggest that we need a talk in Wikipedia's manual of style about the kind of correctness being used in Wikipedia. A few possible choices include political and traditional. Any comments?? Georgia guy 16:29, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Most of the rules in this guide would give way to the principle of accurate quotation. To take the example just above, if a written source says "He had 8 children" or "She is twenty-three years old", then the quotation should preserve the choice of the original. I'd like to warn overeager style mavens not to change quotations. Is there agreement with adding something like this (perhaps under the "Usage and spelling" heading, where it would come up most often): "When a written source is being directly quoted (as opposed to paraphrased), the quotation should conform exactly to the original text, even if the source does not follow the style prescribed by this manual." JamesMLane 08:52, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I agree that it's usually preferable to stick to the original spelling and usage within quotations - but I would not have a hard and fast rule. Unless there are special reasons to keep the original style, correcting misspellings, improving punctuation and correcting grammar are all acceptable, jguk 20:44, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Oral transcripts are definitely different. Ask any journalist—things people say are usually all but rewritten. People tend to speak in a much less clear and more fractured way than they write, so writing down every pause, stumble, and misspeaking looks very odd. — Simetrical ( talk) 18:21, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
We (jguk and I) talked about this on IRC, and we agreed that the most fair way to deal with the English spelling/punctuation differences:
Topics not relating to either should be "first-come-first-used"—that is, the original style of the first major contributor should be kept. Neutrality talk 06:22, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)
This gets difficult when there's any ambiguity, which there often will be. For example, I was recently asked to change an article I'd written on philosopher Bernard Williams. I wrote in AE, and was asked to change it to BE, because he was born in the UK. However, though he was born and worked for many years in the UK, he also worked for many years (though not as many) in the U.S., sold more of his books in the U.S., and they were written in AE, and so on. He also had no sense of himself as tied to any one nationality, so to make a switch to BE felt a little false. I'm in the process of writing about Ernest Gellner, who spent his entire academic career in the UK apart from a couple of years before he died, but who was born in Paris and regarded himself as Czech because his family was. So would that have to be written in BE? I think I prefer the first major contributer policy. By and large, that will amount to the same policy that you've proposed because subjects that are indisputably and only British are likely to be written by Brits. Also, your policy is going to mean people will have to investigate the style used in any given country before they can write a subject related to it. SlimVirgin 06:41, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)
I think I'm going to have to declare everyone officially blind. The page long "Usage and spelling" section of the MoS is all about AE vs BE. -- Cyrius| ✎ 06:55, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I thought there were certain things that had to be used, like U.S. instead of US, in order for certains links to work, is that right? Also, if AE abbreviates it that way, shouldn't that be respected? I think all these issues have been discussed on previous MoS talk pages. SlimVirgin 07:12, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)
OK, the style guide doesn't say exactly what Neutrality said. About style for topics on the Americas, I don't feel strongly either way. My point was that the proposal is essentially the same as is now in the style guide, so the proposed wording would have little or no practical effect. Maurreen 14:09, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The MOS is not explicit about whether quotations may, or should, be italicized. It would make sense to italicize quotations about one sentence or longer, embedded in the paragraph, and maybe even indented quotations. Pgan002 05:25, 2005 Feb 2 (UTC)
<blockquote>
tag, which was designed for this purpose, and is purposefully allowed in Wikitext. The use of italics is best reserved for the source of the quotation, for example:HTH -- Phil | Talk 13:20, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)"There were a lot of people doing a lot of things…"—Some Book or Other by Some Author
<blockquote>
affects both left and right margins, whilst using colons only affects the left margin. --
Phil |
Talk 18:09, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)
For comparison's sake, here are two blocks of text. The first uses the colon markup, and the second uses <blockquote>.
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
Note in particular the right margin. This effect, needless to say, is increased substantially when the tags are nested—some of the comments in this heading are indented six times over, which would look like this with <blockquote>:
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
Also, take a look at the edit window for this. Note that the tag produces two line breaks, so you have to place your text right after the tag rather than adding line breaks in the edit window to get it to show up normally when viewed. It is true that the colon markup is pretty bad HTML, though—is there currently any way to get blocks of text indented with style sheets or something? — Simetrical ( talk) 18:44, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
With colon indent. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
Withou colon indent. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
This thread started with Pgan002's observation that the MoS was "not explicit about whether quotations may, or should, be italicized." Pgan leaned toward italicizing but was apparently willing to go along with not italicizing, which was everyone else's preference. On that basis, I'm changing the MoS passage that now reads "Since quotations are already marked by quotation marks or indentations, they need not be put into italics." I'll make it more explicit by changing "need not" to "should not". I'll leave it to others to decide whether the MoS should mention the availability of the <blockquote> tag (right now it doesn't), or even go beyond mentioning it and characterize it as preferred. JamesMLane 02:15, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Plus, the MoS is a guideline in the first place, and there are very, very few cases where it's necessary to break that rule. – flamurai ( t) 13:24, Feb 12, 2005 (UTC)"Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal."
Ah, it's just occurred to me what's happening here, and it's only just come to me after months of looking at this page! In the UK, "should" in the context of what you added means there is a compulsion. That is, "should not be put into italics" is synonymous with "should never be put into italics". I think I'm right in saying that "should" doesn't tend to have that meaning in American English.
Maybe replace "should not be put into italics" with "are not usually put into italics"? I think a similar point arises for the rest of your proposed amendments that include the word "should" and suitable adjustments should (compulsion) be made to them. Kind regards, jguk 23:52, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I understand the word should in this contextin the same way as jguk, would "ought" be a less ambiguous word? Philip Baird Shearer 01:59, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The style guide table of contents has some weird extra spaces and I don't know why. Maurreen 02:07, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The main issue I wanted to solve with my lengthy classical music titles diatribe a while back is the incorrect italicization of titles of classical music pieces named by form (generic titles).
If no one objects, I would like to add the following item to the list after, "There are a few cases in which the title should be in neither italics nor quotation marks:"
I would also like to alter a sentence in Wikipedia:Manual of Style (titles), specifically changing:
to
(or something similar... if anyone has a better way to phrase it without the parenthetical).
Any objections? Affirmations?
– flamurai ( t) 20:36, Feb 13, 2005 (UTC)
I removed that when writing about the EU, we should use BE, as the EU is not a "topic specific to a particular country." That looks like an attempt to impose BE on a bunch of countries where English is not the first language and where spellings of English words vary. Please let's not impose too much rigidity on editors regarding what type of English they have to use. The main thing is that it should be consistent within articles. SlimVirgin 03:53, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)
I'd have no problem with that wording. So long as someone wanting to write about some general EU-related topic isn't restricted. I just noticed your -isation though; -ization is also acceptable as BE. SlimVirgin 05:26, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)
Yes, exactly. We've had our linguistic history rewritten by the evil Microsoft. I often slip -ize words into articles with BE though, as a little act of defiance, though I won't say where, in case others go on a hunt-and-destroy mission. ;-) SlimVirgin 06:20, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)
This is verging on an extreme and bizarre form of nationalism. Why on earth would any subject about Europe have to be in British English? And not all non-British forms of English are American-format. Zoney, why would you find it "grating" to see Germany written about with the word color in it, instead of colour? That makes no sense to me at all. SlimVirgin 08:48, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)
I agree that if we're writing an article that is specificially about (actually about, not just involving) an EU institution or treaty, it does no harm for the article to be in British English (why Irish though: is it different?). But I would want some kind of clear wording or disclaimer to make sure it didn't extend beyond that, and it shouldn't include articles related to the European Union in general, or to countries belonging to the European Union. SlimVirgin 10:48, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)
What is the difference between "article on EU treaties, institutions and directives" and all the other examples in that section? Why is a "clear wording or disclaimer" needed for "article on EU treaties, institutions and directives" and not for "article on Ayers Rock" or "article on the American Civil War"? Philip Baird Shearer 16:07, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
There's been no further discussion regarding the disputed sentences (in bold below). We should discuss whether to have them in or out (neither are in at present); and if in, how expressed. They're both in the usage and spelling section:
(1) Articles that focus on a topic specific to a particular English-speaking country should generally conform to the spelling of that country. Disputed sentence: Note however: A person does not count as a "topic specific to" a country.
(2) Article on European Union treaties, institutions and directives: British and Irish usage and spelling
My concern with (1) is that we shouldn't get into a situation where people are "owned" by certain countries that they have been born in or lived in. When dealing with people, the first-major-contributer rule should apply. An exception might be if the person is a current political office holder, but there's probably no need to spell that out, as the office would count as an institution belonging to that country e.g. George Bush qua president of the U.S. But I'd hate to see us have to write about e.g. Robert Burns in British English just because he happened to live in the UK, particularly as his writing is not in British English and he didn't regard himself as British. People of artistic and literary merit belong to the world, not to any specfic country and to conclude otherwise is to succumb to provincialism and nationalism. Would Benjamin Zephaniah have to be written about in British English, where he was raised, or in Jamaican English, where he was born? Do we have to count the number of years someone has lived or worked in a country? For these reasons, I would very much like to see a clear disclaimer that people may be written about in any style. What do others think?
Re: (2) This seems like another attempt to extend British English beyond its borders. Like (1) above, here's no need for it. It's instruction creep. SlimVirgin 03:31, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)
It's the "topics pertaining to" business that too's vague. Why should an article about Germany be in any particular form of English? SlimVirgin 11:47, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)
It shouldn't default to any style of English, and I'd appreciate it if you'd stop assuming that anything that isn't British English must be American English, because that ignores all the other countries that have their own style and dialect. The rule should be the first-major-contributer, then there is no default. But it's not acceptable to say articles about Germany must be written in BE; in fact, it's absurd. SlimVirgin 12:46, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)
Option (2) UK/Irish English is what the EU uses. for all these documents. It is not "This seems like another attempt to extend British English beyond its borders." It is to use the English which is used by the institution and the native speakers within that institution use and all documents which come out of that institution. If I was to write a piece on the US constitution I would not be surprised if someone changed all my spellings from au/ie/nz/sa/uk spellings to American. BTW
EU directive should be expanded to "EU regulations, directives, decisions, recommendations and opinions".
Philip Baird Shearer 17:54, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The examples were inserted on 7th and various modifications were made to the list between then and the 15 Feb when SV removed EU. If it had been removed in the first day or so then I agree it should be discuss it before putting it back. But if over a week is not long enough, how long does an item have to be on the page before removing it should be discussed?
Zoney would like a broader definition of EU, but as he seems to be the only one arguing like that, he seems to be willing to have a fall back position of EU institutions (rather than nothing). As in this case no one seems to be arguing that topics about the institutions of the EU should not be in Irish English, why delete the whole bullet point? As all that is in dispute is the scope of what should be covered by the term EU institutions, surly this can better be handled by editing it and discussion rather than deletion of the bp? Philip Baird Shearer 15:56, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Hi, SlimVirgin. Re your addition of "A person does not count as a "topic specific to" a country" -- I see where you're coming from, with your comments above about Williams and Gellner, but I think the general rule *should* be that U.S. writers and presidents get U.S. English and that UK authors and MPs get the UK flavour. There'll be cases where it's not so black-and-white -- Gellner, probably, though not Williams, I think -- and that's where "first major contributor" kicks in. Can we have a go at rewording that addition? –Hajor 04:04, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Jguk, Hajor and I were discussing how to reword the "people are not topics" issue. Could you join in this discussion instead of deleting it entirely? I'm certainly happy to see people who hold office, like your George Bush example, be written about in the style of the country they hold office in. I just want to avoid a general philosophy of people being "owned" by certain countries; and also how do we judge: is it place of birth, how long they've resided? I'd like to suggest sticking to the idea of holding or having held office; or being in some other way inextricably linked to a country e.g. Shakespeare linked to UK or Robert Frost to U.S. But if the word "inextricably" doesn't apply, then the first-major-contributer rule should determine style. SlimVirgin 07:28, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)
Jguk, you've reverted again, LOL. You make very radical changes when you want to, but revert anyone else who does the same. I'm not having a go at you, just smiling a little, and I won't revert the revert. I'm already sensing problems with determining where a person is domiciled. Are we going to have find out which country they pay their taxes to? And Bernard Williams: living in the U.S. but domiciled in the UK? Difficult. SlimVirgin 07:55, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)
Zoney, it depends how you define famous. The article that got me thinking about this is Bernard Williams, who wasn't famous but was known within academic circles. He was born in the UK; lived for many years in the UK and in America; worked in both countries; though for longer in the UK; was working and living in the U.S. when he died; and sold most of his books in the U.S. I wrote his page in U.S. English. I was asked to change it to British English by User:Albion, who I believe was a sock for User:Jguk. Apologies if I'm wrong about that. I feel it's nationalistic to act like that about an academic who I know saw himself as an internationalist, so it's this kind of example that I'd like to see excluded from any guideline. SlimVirgin 08:16, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)
I don't agree that Bernard Williams was an exception. It's very common for people to move around the world, which is why I find this nationalistic tone so inappropriate, particularly for Wikipedia, and actually almost offensive. I've lived all over the world, in English and non-English speaking countries, and I can't stand any form of nationalism or provincialism, so that's where I'm coming from with this. Wikipedians should be allowed to express themselves in whichever style of English they find most comfortable, so long as they cite sources, check their facts, and don't write personal essays. Apart from that we shouldn't be restricting people, and this idea that certain persons belong to certain countries is appalling. You should bear in mind the MoS isn't policy, so people are free to ignore it, and if you make it absurd, they will. SlimVirgin 10:54, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)
Zoney, when a person writes in Canadian English, they're not using American English, even though that's what it might look like to you. I'm asking you to accept that there are a wide variety of styles of English, not just BE versus AE. I think the idea that people belong to certain countries is unacceptably nationalistic, so I would like to include a rider to that section that this is not what is meant by a "topic specific to". I'm not suggesting an addition, simply a clarification of what is already there. I've given you examples of how confusing the person=country guideline would become, and I can give you more. It would lead to nothing but arguments, so all I'm suggesting is that we make it explicit that the first-major-contributer rule apply to people unless they hold office. That currently is the case, but I would like to clarify it. SlimVirgin 08:20, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)
Hajor, you mentioned the U.N. as a possible model. I'd like to learn more. Do you know of any U.N. style references, especially online? Maurreen 07:45, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Is the MoS actually policy, as I understood it was not. If it is policy, then how can it be changed by only one or two editors? What is the policy about changing policy, does anyone know? SlimVirgin 11:52, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)
As I recall, this was not policy. Did I misunderstand that or has there been a change? If it's policy, then isn't there a procedure that needs to be gone through to make changes? SlimVirgin 13:16, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)
Jguk, it was you who added that policy category to the page on October 31, 2004. So how did you know it was policy? SlimVirgin 13:29, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)
But Jguk calling it policy doesn't make it policy. Either we have a case here of a guideline which anyone may edit, because it doesn't matter much; or we have a case of a policy which, while not binding on editors, does incline them toward certain positions, in which case we shouldn't be changing it without a broader consensus. I don't mind one way or the other; I'd just like to know which it is. When I asked Jguk how he knew it was policy, he referred me to the page's category. Yet when I looked to see who had added the category, it was Jguk. SlimVirgin 13:50, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)
It says on the policy page that the Manual of Style is a guideline. See Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines. It has the same status as, for example, Wikipedia:Cite sources. SlimVirgin 13:59, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)
Zoney and Snowspinner, I've removed the policy category and made the sentence that says it's policy invisible. Jguk needs to say on what basis he added the category. I'll see whether there's something in the talk archives about it. SlimVirgin 14:07, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)
I agree that this is better described as a guideline rather than policy. But changing his page is not like changing most articles, because it is used and abused on a daily basis in many arguments over style all over Wikipedia. If it is going to be changed there should be a consensus before it is changed. For example SlimVirgin deleted the EU entry long before there was agreement to do so. And despite a revert (which shows there is no consensus) she had deleted it again. If people do that, then this page becomes unstable and can not be used as a reference on other page in style arguments, because it will not be stable enough to be used for that. Philip Baird Shearer 17:12, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
You are out of line calling this policy, and Philip, do NOT revert again. Jguk, you took it upon yourself to insert this into the policy category, then when I asked you for evidence, you cited that category. That is dishonest. It is listed as a guideline, not official policy, not semi-policy, not any kind of policy.
A very small number of men seem to have taken ownership of this page and that can't be allowed to continue. For one thing, there's no point in trying to insert your own idiosyncratic views here, because all that will happen is that editors will regard the MoS as irrelevant, so it has to conform to some extent with accepted practise. I am asking these men to stop being bullies, and to allow other people to take part in editing this page. If you want the MoS to become policy, you will have to seek a broader consensus. SlimVirgin 00:47, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)
Your edit's much better, James, thank you. I don't know whether the sex is relevant or not. I know only that there are two male editors who appear (stress on "appear") to be standing guard over this article, and as a woman whose edits keep being reverted, I don't like it. I stressed that they are men because I know that Maurreen has paid close attention to this page too, but she hasn't acted like a bully. SlimVirgin 05:56, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)
Jguk, when you say "it has been accepted . . . that this page is policy," you mean it's been accepted by a very small number of people. Two or three people can't make a page policy. The page also says editors don't have to stick to the suggestions it makes, so calling it policy would contradict that. I knew it was Dcoetzee who made the change to the text, but it was you who added the category, yet when I asked you how you knew it was policy, you referred me to the category as though it was independent evidence. As for User:Albion, if that was not you, then I do apologize. I believed it was you because his only edits were to Bernard Williams, changing it from American to British English, and he referred to a guideline that articles about a person should be in the English of that person's country, even though that's not what the MoS says; but even though he got it wrong, he clearly wasn't a new user.
As for the EU addition, I understand that was not discussed before being added. A couple of editors here seem to take the view that they may add things without discussion, but others may not. I ask only that this attitude change. Many thanks, SlimVirgin 07:57, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)
The problem is that simply deciding here to call it policy doesn't make it so. I suspect the only reason you've not been challenged before is that most editors don't read this page, but if it ever came to a mediation or arbitration case over a style issue, then this page not being policy would come to light. If you want to make it policy, I'd have no objection, but then we'd have to get a wider consensus from the community, and I'd be surprised if we'd get it because people would see it as instruction creep. Just because something is only a guideline doesn't mean it doesn't have force. Wikipedia:Cite sources is only a guideline, for example, but most people will supply a reference if challenged. Which parts were you thinking of wording in a more flexible way? SlimVirgin 08:28, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)
It isn't true that the only policies are, or should be, about behavior and no one has argued that. The two major policies are NPOV and No original research, both about content. The MoS is not policy, never was, and is not regarded as such by acclamation. SlimVirgin 21:50, Feb 18, 2005 (UTC)
Maybe we can break the impasse by referring to this page as "official style"? Then we advise the reader that "this page is official style. Whilst we prefer you to edit using this style, don't worry, nothing will happen to you if you don't, and the content of your contributions is more important than whether you take note of this page or not. However, in time, copyediting Wikipedians will edit articles to comply with the Wikipedia official style. Please accept this as a good way to improve readability of Wikipedia as a whole - and, in particular, you should not revert them".
I think a compromise on "official style" may both satisfy the requirements that this page has to be adhered to, whilst also making it clear that non-compliance is not a behavioural issue that could get you banned, jguk 22:53, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I think you misunderstand how Wikipedia policy is made. It is a somewhat murky custom ("procedure" is going too far). Generally it is what Wikipedians accept it to be. Policy can be made by general acceptance of a principle - indeed, whilst some policies, such as the 3RR, have become accepted only after a vote, most have not. In this case, Wikipedians do generally accept the Manual of Style as a point of reference for style and accept what it says. Also, there was no dispute when the Manual was amended to explicitly state that it is policy. (The text of the manual strongly implied that it had authority before then.) The conclusion is simple: it is policy. Your removing of the references to it being policy have not achieved consensus (and also you seem to be willing to support it having official status), and I therefore intend to replace the references to it being so. If you wish to bring a poll to declassify it as policy, or make a formal proposal that the Manual of Style ceases to have any official status, then do so. But IMO that would be very unwise, fuel edit wars, and distract many people from more productive development of Wikipedia, jguk 09:45, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
jguk, if you want to use "International English" what dictionary, stylebook, etc., do you have in mind? Maurreen 08:01, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
If it's decided that this page is not policy, it would only be proper to announce it big and often in order to dispel most Wikipedians' misconception that it is policy, jguk 19:50, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I disagree that most Wikipedians think this page is policy. I'd guess that most don't know it exists, and we haven't decided it's not policy. It just isn't, and it never was. SlimVirgin 22:03, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)
This page is now about 46 kb. I suggest that the sections on national varieties of English be split to a different page. Maurreen 08:01, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
If the style guide is going to mandate what national varieties of English are appropriate for the European Union, then to be parallel, it would also mandate what national varieties of English are appropriate for the Organization of American States, etc. Is that desired? Maurreen 17:17, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Heh. Maurreen floats an interesting idea, but a flawed one, I think. Here's a couple of my ideas:
First major edit (and perhaps with a remmed-out flag at the top to try and halt incremental dialect creep). That's the fairest way to do this. –Hajor 21:02, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
OK, with your permission, I'll change "European" in my comment above to "EU" and apologise for my sloppy writing. Your point about the "European Union using British/Irish English officially" is also valid, but I take it as meaning that the *institutions* of the EU use B/I Eng. It strikes me as something of a stretch to want to construe that as in some way meaning that B/I Eng has any sort of official status domestically within the individual member states. Sorry if I appeared to be rubbishing your ideas; I wrote that reply in response to Maurreen's, only you got in ahead of me. –Hajor 21:34, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I disagree with the UK so-called "dependencies" being slipped in, and Malta and Cyprus? Objection. Also, as the EU claim was inserted without discussion, I'm removing it again until the wording is agreed upon. Similarly, with my insertion that "people are not topics". We can't have different rules for different editors. SlimVirgin 22:02, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)
Here is the disputed claim:
article on European Union treaties, institutions and directives: British and Irish usage and spelling
I dispute this. The European Union does not belong to Britain and Ireland. Editors of all nationalities edit the English Wikipedia, including editors from continental Europe. They should be allowed to use whatever style of English they feel most comfortable with so long as it's consistent within an article. SlimVirgin 22:09, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)
I am allowed to dispute edits, Zoney, as is anyone. The page says edits should not be made without discussion and are likely to be removed if they are, and the EU edit was made without discussion. Also, the EU uses BE only in the sense that the translators are British. If, as you say, it is completely counter-intuitive to use anything other than BE, then the editors who write these articles are likely to feel the same way, so there won't be a problem. My objection is simply that we shouldn't try to force it on anyone. There are quite a few continental European editors at Wikipedia. They have a hard enough time writing in a second or foreign language and don't need further obstacles in the form of having to watch which style of English they write in. I feel you're introducing a false principle that, if an insitution's documents are written in a certain style, that style must be followed by Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not tied to any other institution. We are free agents. When I write about the German parliament, I don't have to write in German. SlimVirgin 01:06, Feb 18, 2005 (UTC)
If "European Union" is taken to mean the actual institution and machinations thereof - the judicature, bureaucracy and parliament, then I agree with Zoney that UK/Irish English is the most appropriate form of standard English to use. Philip Baird Shearer 00:48, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
This is my compromise proposal, a package deal:
The Organization for American States uses American English and it is based in the United States. Maurreen 05:53, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I think there are two separate issues here. The first are countries. Earlier in this section SV said "I agree that this is getting silly: to list certain institutions that must be written about in a certain style; to insist that Malta be written about in Maltese English." Yet if US articles are in US English and UK articles in UK English etc, why not Maltese articles in Maltese English? Which BTW in its formal form will be the same as most other Commonwealth countries which all have their local idiocincracies but are all very similar.
The EU is not just a free trade area it also involves pooled sovereignty in a way that no equivalent multinational institution does. This is why I think that it is an exception, and articles about EU institutions and their verbiage they should be in Irish English. However if people want the comfort blanket of saying "for balance" the English used by any multinational institution should be the guide for articles about that institution, I would not object, although I think it unnecessary Philip Baird Shearer 23:44, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Many people in Northen Ireland would identify with Ireland first, the EU second and not at all with the UK! In the UK, most people in Scotland are Scottish first, British second. It is the Scottish Nationalists policy to leave the UK but remain in the EU. Scotland can pull out of the UK more easily than the UK can pull out of the European Union. Just as with the US constitution, there currently no article of secession from the EU treaties or any agreed policy of how secession could be achieved. It has been added to the draft constitution [4], but there is no agreement yet to implement the EU DC. Philip Baird Shearer 15:59, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Here are two HMG Northern Ireland Executive briefing papers on subsidiarity in the EU:
And a speech by Christopher Patten, the EU External Relations Commissioner "Sovereignty, democracy and constitutions finding the right formula"
Unless there are any credible arguments against it, I am going to reinstate the EU line:
-- Philip Baird Shearer 21:13, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It seem very odd for articles on the EU to be in American English -- there are only two English-speaking countries in the EU (citizen of one, resident of the other, here; though in my experience, Sweden's a pretty close to being a third...), and English as an official working language of the EU, is decidedly British English. I don't know if it's necessary to make a hard and fast rule to this effect, but IMO it would be ridiculous to have a situation where someone deciding to write an article just north of the magic stub threshold on such a topic would bind all subsequent practice for all eternity, barring any possibility of compromise, logic, or emergent harmony with related articles, which is what some seem to be arguing for.
The OAS I can't speak to in any detail. Is it really a parallel case, or is this just transatlantic haggling in the spirit of Boeing vs. Airbus, and little bananas vs. big ones? I note that the majority of English-speaking countries in the OAS are... also British-English speaking. Does it have an official policy on working languages? Alai 08:15, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
By "credible arguments", I meant an example of an authoritative person arguing that there is no pooled sovereignty in the EU. To repeat what said before:
This discussion seems to have wandered from Maurreen's proposal. I thought her proposal related only to articles about the EU or the OAS, not about member countries. Someone starting an article about a particular cathedral in France or about a notable Brazilian musician could still use whichever form of English he or she preferred. At least, that's the way I think it should be. Maurreen, is that what you intended? If so, and the proposal applies only to articles about those transnational entities, we can figure that there won't be all that many such articles. JamesMLane 14:02, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It is OK with me! Philip Baird Shearer 09:15, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
OK, just to make sure ... I think this is something probably at least acceptable to most of us. Are there any major objections or suggested wording tweaks to the following?
I think the wording is fine. I'm not sure if these sentences are really needed in the Manual of Style, but IF it is decided to put them it, this wording is the only one I can imagine. Flo 07:08, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Flo, if you don't like them, please vote against rather than going along with it. SlimVirgin 07:35, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)
I think the latter is vaguely CogDissing, as it implies some large distinction between British and Canadian, and makes me automatically want to add "... and Jamaican, and Bahamian, and ...". Perhaps just saying "usage and spelling appropriate to one or more OAS member country", or something to that effect? Thus purely British tropes are by implication out, until Tony Blair negotiates that island (and change)'s accession... (Ideally one would presumably use as generally acceptable forms as possible, but the MoS already has such language, so needn't incorporate such a formula explicitly.) Alai 07:14, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Is this indeed wrapped up, or to we need to check for consensus, formally vote, engage in an impromptu revert-war, or some other time-hono(u)red Wikipedian ritual practice to denote the happy event? Alai 07:14, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I don't agree with it, as I've said several times. The second rule might clash with the "topic specific to" rule, because of Jamaica and other countries that follow BE. I don't think we have any right to split the world up in this way, and if you do it, you'll simply be making the MoS irrelevant, because people won't follow it. SlimVirgin 07:34, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)
OK, how about this? Again, as a package deal?
I have explained why the EU is different from other international organisations because of pooled sovereignty. No one has yet produced an example of an authoritative person arguing that there is no pooled sovereignty in the EU. Because of this pooled sovereignty, if an article is about a nation which uses the local English, then the EU as a sort of nation, should be treated the same and the EU's English is British/Irish English. I am sure that no one who accepts the concept of a locale would argue the South African articles specifically on SA topics should not be written in SA English. I have chosen SA as an example, because it has 12 offical languages of which English performs a similar role as that in the EU. I do not see the EU as any different. Equally because the EU is not a full blown nation, I would not go so far as to insist that all articles about anyone or thing in the EU is in EU English because that is not a step, but a whole staircase too far.
For this reason I think that the EU should be treated as a nation and not an international organization. Philip Baird Shearer 18:14, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Jguk, do not change this back again to claiming it's policy. I have no objection to you seeking to make it policy, though there are a few things I'd want to see changed before I'd support it. The only thing I ask is that you seek a broader consensus. A small group of five or so editors can't make that decision on their own. And anyway, adding the category doesn't do it. It's not classed as policy on the policy page so it's still going to count as a guideline no matter what you call it on this page. SlimVirgin 10:28, Feb 19, 2005 (UTC)
For a Manual of Style to work, it needs to be policy. That doesn't mean that you will get banned if you don't follow it (you can only get banned for behavioural issues). It does mean that if your edits are not in compliance with it, in due course copy-editing Wikipedians will alter them so that they do comply.
It needs to be policy for the following reasons:
Comments please? jguk 11:49, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I suppose the thing I don't understand about this conversation is the dictatorial desire to control how people write and to make it uniform across the whole encyclopedia. There's a lot of variation between articles in other areas: POVS, factual accuracy, whether sources are cited, grammar, quality of writing, image use, the way articles are structured. And yet when it comes to whether to write color or colour, you want absolute uniformity, with the world split into "with U/without U" spheres of influences, and wanting it to be policy, on a par with NPOV and no original research. If you read half the articles, and probably more than half, they contain serious errors of fact and grammar, both of which make Wikipedia look bad, and most don't have adequate references. Those errors are more important than whether we spell "recognize" with an s or a z. These tiny stylistic differences will never make us look bad, and probably won't even be noticed by many readers. And if they're noticed, all they communicate is that some of the authors of the article may have been British or American. But I don't see why that's a big deal.
Something that User:Albion, whoever he was, said to me regarding Bernard Williams was that it meant a lot to some people that articles related to the UK should be in British English, which is why I gave in. But I wonder why it should mean such a lot (and especially in articles not about the UK, but about Europe or whatever) and it would be good if someone could clearly explain it. Is it a fear that these spellings may die out otherwise? If I could understand it better, maybe I could get a handle on knowing how to approach the issue. SlimVirgin 12:02, Feb 19, 2005 (UTC)