For current style guidelines for units of measure, please see Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers).
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What's the preferred style for units? In your example for numbers etc. you use both m (metre) and kilograms (kg). I'd say the abbreviations for SI units are quite well established (well, outside of the US anyway) and are hardly seen written in full, but I'm not sure about the imperial units, one sees 10 yard, 10 y, 10 yd, 10 yards, etc. Any rules for this? Jeronimo
I know, but they will be used in many articles no doubt, if only as a secondary to the SI units. Jeronimo
I don't think it's "the right thing to do" to completely remove US Imperial measurements. I've noticed all-too-often in this discussion a caustic attitude to any objections concerning the deletion of US Imperial from articles; but the fact is, even if the United States is the only country using that system of measurements, Americans are still a significant presence on Wikipedia (and the internet at large!). Attempts by other Wikipedians to disadvantage them, forcing a system many do not have a sense of familiarity with (although it's taught in most American schools, because the US Imperial system is more prevalent here, most Americans will have a better sense of scale with those) .... this comes off as slightly amusing given that Wikipedia's based in Florida. The fact that Wikipedia is based in Florida plays no argument at all for a global internet community.
Again, I'm not saying that Wikipedia should cater ONLY to Americans and use US Imperial; that's absurd. By the same token, it should be recognized that given the user base, US Imperial simply cannot be thrown away, lest you devalue the worth of this encyclopedia to a significant amount of users. I believe the dual system, with order of appearance judging on the article, to be a fair compromise. --anon who forgot to sign anonymously
I read once that the EU is larger economically than the US, but that is by the by... Metrication is an ongoing process, which won't ever get any faster is projects like this don't nudge it along a little. This is an international project, and the SI system is the internationally recognized standard. I say we drag people kicking and screaming into the 20th century. -- Tarquin
For further reference, the US is larger econonomically than the EU.
European Union purchasing power parity - $11.65 trillion (2004 est.) [1]
United States purchasing power parity - $11.75 trillion (2004 est.) [2] Jimbobsween 23:19, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
The UK decimalised on 15th February 1971. We joined the Common Market (later known as the EU) in 1973. The metrication process began in 1965, and as you say, it's been a slow process. It's true that metriccation was condition of Common Market entry but since it was already goernment policy this was a non-binding constraint. Loose food was metricated on 1st January, 2000. It's not exactly illegal to sell in pounds and ounces. You must display the food price in metric, but you may also display in "supplementary units" provided that they are no larger or more prominent than the metric display. You may ask for the product in any units, but the vendor must weigh or measure it in metric. The receipt must be in metric. Blaise 15:08, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I simply use SI or metric and link to the appropriate unit article -- many of which already have conversion factors and links to a great online converter. See square kilometre. This is one of the way we were able to reduce the hideously wide countries tables to their current much leaner state. If and only if there is room, it seems appropriate in context and if it doesn't confuse things, should we use the American system (So long as links to the right unit article are included of course). See the boiling/melting point part of the barium table for an example of this. -- mav
They just put miles on the signs. All the measurements are actually in km, though. Or so they say... - Omegatron 04:05, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)
The USA has used metric (in an indirect sense) for quite some time (for over a century IIRC) -- American version of imperial units have been defined in terms of metric units (e.g. the inch is defined to be 2.54cm). -- Naoto
We can all understand the words "color" and "colour". Having two types of units, however, can be a source of confusion. (NASA, anyone?) -- Tarquin
Much of the above discussion seems to imply that Imperial and American Customary units are the same, which they are not. If you say a litre, everyone agrees how large that is, whereas a pint is different in Britain and America, and in America there are different volumes for wet and dry measures. Similarly an ounce could refer to a fluid ounce, a troy ounce or an avoirdupois ounce. Even the mile has statute and nautical variants. The advantage of the metric system is that it is unambiguous. Chris Q 10:13 Sep 16, 2002 (UTC)
Discussion copied from
Talk:SI for wider circulation here, giving once again reasons for using the common US system and showing confusion between
SI and
metric:
<begin>
I have a friend who was raised in France, speaks French and is a college-educated automobile mechanic who in 25 years went through the transition from Imperial to metric system with several lines of cars, including teaching it to other mechanics, and he has never heard the expression SI. Hence, I added the word "metric" to this article.
Ortolan88
Wait a minute here. I thought that the cgs system is what is commonly called the metric system and SI is simply the International Standard used by scientists (based on m, kg, s)? I also thought that most nations use a hybrid system made up of SI and cgs units. If the opening paragraph is correct then temperatures in Europe are measured and displayed in Kelvin and not degrees Celsius. -- mav
>I thought that the cgs system is what is commonly called the metric system and SI is simply >the International Standard used by scientists
No. The metric system has undergone revisions from time to time. CGS became MKS (metre-kilogram-second), which became SI. Most countries use a mixture of SI, non-SI units related to SI (e.g. litres and hectares) and non-SI units unrelated to SI (feet, for aircraft altitudes; nautical miles). Blaise 15:21, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I was going by the
metric article and the metric-fan additions to
Wikipedia:Manual of Style. It seems both these articles are wrong, from what you say. Every time I try to speak up for the 260 million non-metric Americans, I am treated to a condescending lecture on how superior the metric system is. I have never said it isn't superior (except for temperature), but that isn't the issue. The issue is ease of use of the wikipedia by the world's largest internet nation. It is too damn bad the US has been so slow and reluctant and whatever to adopt the metric system, and it is slowly coming in now, but we still don't use it in everyday life, so if we want to know how tall a
hippopotamus is, someone is going to have to help us out. It is with some schadenfreude (delight at the discomfort of those you disagree with) at this indication that even metric enthusiasts are not sure what the difference between metric and
SI is.
Ortolan88
<end>
I regularly come across pages that have only Imperial units. Can I be so bold as to change these to metric and put the Imperial measurements in parenthesis or should it be vice-versa? Scipius 20:01 Nov 3, 2002 (UTC)
I support links like 2.3 km (1.4 mi). Only articles about units of measurement (or sentences about units of measurement in articles about something else) need to link directly to Kilometre or Mile. — Toby 02:23 Nov 17, 2002 (UTC)
Sometimes the context determines which units are reasonable ( Principle of least astonishment). For example, an article on London should give a travel distance in miles, not kilometers.
Otherwise, dictating that units should be converted to a standard appears to be inconsistent with the firm Wikipedia policy that Wikipedia is freely editable. If an author uses units that are clearly awkward, such as "1.60934 km", another author might change this to "1 mi.". If an author is not a resident of countries that use Imperial units, they might prefer to use "km." instead of "mi.".
There is a larger issue: if there is to be one English Wikipedia that is to be used internationally, what would be appropriate style rules for locale? (Locale includes collating order, date and time formats, thousands separator character in numbers, British/USAian spelling, units of measurement, etc. I could not find a specific discussion of this issue in either Wikipedia or Meta Wikipedia. David 20:18 Jan 3, 2003 (UTC)
Another thing to bear in mind -- gallons and pints are ambiguous. technically, so are miles. (nautical, survey, but it's safe to assume which one just "mile" means). Furthermore, in the UK, it is highly unusual to give a figure in pounds over 14. 14 pounds make a stone in the Imperial system (or maybe 16. or 18. heck, I don't know.) -- Tarquin 22:49 Jan 11, 2003 (UTC)
Just to toss another monkey into the wrenchworks here. The English and American units are much more natural and human scale. An inch is a knuckle, a foot is the length of a foot, a yard is as long as an arm, a mile is a good walk, a pound is a handful, 0 fahrenheit is real cold, 100 fahrenheit is body temperature and also real hot, 200 fahrenheit will burn you, that mischievous guy, Ortolan88
Just looked the page for the first time. I don't have any solutions, just some observations -
Europe has officially set the target for going completely metric by 2009, yet vast numbers of people still think only in imperial units. Just because a bureaucrat in Brussels says 'Europe is metric' doesn't make it so. (Usually going by the EU, the safe option is to believe the exact opposite of what Brussels bureaucratic thinks!) I know my class all studied through metric, yet we still use both systems. Our road signs say miles, our cars tell speeds in kilometres. We buy litres of soft drink, but drink 'pints' of alcohol. I bake a christmas cake using imperial measurements yet fahrenheit is no longer used or even recognised. (Watching CBS News the other night, they told how cold it was in the US by giving a number in fahrenheit. Neither my flatmate (23 years old) nor I (mid 30s) had a clue what Dan Rather meant.) I suppose what all that means is that Wikipedia shouldn't use one system or the other - just because someone uses kilograms doesn't mean they don't think in miles, or use miles doesn't mean they don't use celsius. I know that is made all the worse by different imperial unit meanings in the US and elsewhere. (Not to mention spelling. We may not think in kilometres, but we still prefer seeing them spelt kilometres not kilometers!) The bottom line is, there is no simple solution. I'm all for standardising things that can be standardised on Wiki, but this is one issue where if you try to limit use to one, vast numbers of Wiki users from somewhere will not have a clue about the meaning. JTD 02:59 Mar 1, 2003 (UTC)
Leaving aside the atheistic, French revolutionary roots of the metric system, and the vile scourge of creeping decimalism, the chief advantage of the traditional or Imperial system is that it allows other divisors, and does not participate in the monomaniacal insistence on powers of 10. This makes it far more useful in the kitchen, where you may well be called upon to multiply a recipe by three, or take a recipe that feeds four and convert it to feed two, or one, but it's much less likely that you will be called upon to multiply or divide your recipe by 10. The metric system probably has value in science, engineering, or other fields where higher math will be applied; it is useless around the house. The Celsius temperatures are much too loose and sloppy to apply to anything like the weather; but Fahrenheit just marked 0 the coldest temperature he recorded in a year, and 100 the hottest [see below - David], so it works well for weather in the temperate zone. I say that if a rule is required use whichever measures do the best job for what you're talking about: metric for science and physics, imperial for anything you will actually encounter in real life. -- IHCOYC 03:37 Mar 1, 2003 (UTC)
The guideline should be simple enough:
Tannin 09:02 Mar 1, 2003 (UTC)
Concerning the Fahrenheit temperature scale, a statement made above, and Web site [3] attempt to explain its origin. However, they are incorrect. The Web site claims that the true origins are unknown, which is also incorrect. Some sites, such as [4], like many others, simply invent the origins (for example, that the freezing point of water was arbitrarily set as 32°). Sites such as [5] have almost the correct information. [6] correctly explains that the freezing point was determined by measuring the lowest temperature achievable in a laboratory, which of course resulted by mixing water, ice, and salt in the right proportions (not equally) and letting it sit until the temperature is stable. (He did not want negative temperatures). Laughable today, perhaps, but it made sense in 1714 when he did his experiments. [7] explains that the upper bound came from measuring the internal temperature of a healthy person and calling it 96 degrees (that site explains why).
Other scales include the Réaumur (1730), Rømer (1730+), Kelvin (1862), and Rankine (ca. 1860). See, e.g., [8].
David 19:49 Mar 3, 2003 (UTC)
I find it amazing that people make statements about metric temperature measurements not having enough accuracy for weather readings. Celsius is perfect for weather, 0 is freezing, 0-10 cold, 10-20 cool, 20-30 moderate, 30-40 hot, 40-50 very hot. Easy! People who claim that Celsius doesn't have enough accuracy are just pulling at straws. Most people won't notice a difference of 1 degree Celsius and if that much accuracy is required then throw in a decimal point.
Maybe one already exists, but in case it doesn't,
For example, Dublin is 30 [table page|mile]s (48 km) from Navan or Dublin is 48 [table page|km] (30 miles) from Navan.
The trouble with asking authors to 'convert' is that while some people are comfortable with doing mathematical conversions, others haven't a clue and no matter how simple the equation might feel uncomfortable doing so in case they made the proverbial balls of it. I know for example the height of Nelson's Pillar in feet, the distance between Cork and Dublin in miles, but would baulk at having to convert them to kilometres. (I suspect some people would simply leave out information rather than have to do conversions. )
Furthermore, saying the 'metric is easier because everyone bar the US uses it is simply not true. Even where metric is officially the standard (eg Ireland) a significant proportion of people use or think imperial. I can't think of a single Irish person who measures human height in metres; everyone says five feet eight inches, six foot one inch, etc. Everyone thinks human weight in stones and pounds, not kilograms (not do they use simply pounds). They measure distance in miles. Windspeed is given in the Beaufort scale or in miles per hour, never kilometres per hour. Yet officially Ireland is a metricated country. The same is true in the UK, where some use metric, some imperial, some think different measurements in different systems. JtdIrL 21:37 Mar 3, 2003 (UTC)
Although I can have sympathy for a people grown up with a tradition of untis with direct links to the Roman empire and beyond, for scientific purposes there certainly is no issue whatsoever. No, I will not mention the Mars probe, but instead simply ask anyone who are in doubt to compare a collection of physical formulae in Imperial to one in SI units. An image of a "disaster area" does really spring to my mind. -- Egil 11:11 Mar 15, 2003 (UTC)
Fix it in software?
When I started reading the Wikipedia documentation, I was pleasantly surprised to note that MediaWiki is able to convert (properly formatted) dates to match one's preference setting for date display. I was a little less surprised that such a fix had not been implemented to deal with the unit conversion discussed ad nauseum on this page. I realize this would tax both the developers and the servers, but wouldn't the end result be more elegant than our current solution?
This feature is already being discussed at MediaWiki feature request and bug report discussion if anyone would like to contribute to this discussion there. -- Jarsyl 08:01, 2004 Aug 6 (UTC)
[[48 m]]
(or other sintax) the MediaWiki can make the adequate conversion to the user preferences, and when the user has not logged in it will show both units like this: "
48 m (29.8 mi)" i.e. [[1 E4 m|48 m (29.8 mi)]]
(note the automatic addition of a link to the
orders of magnitude page, and the between every value and its unit). --
surueña 07:44, 2005 May 27 (UTC)I'm curious about the persistent colonialism here. Why bully others? "Everyone except a few people in the US?" A few? Certainly more than the entire population of your country. And who cares if the EU has a big economy? "What's that got to do with ... rights? If my cup won't hold but a pint, and yours holds a quart, wouldn't you be mean not to let me have my little half measure full?" And ain't we human? Let us be. Why this desire to dominate? We have units. You have units. All God's children got units. No one's asking to exclude whatever-the-hell those SI things are. Don't insist that we be excluded either. Behaviour, Behavior, Whatever. (Oh! And don't think that the issue is resolved. Where'd France's newfangled decimal hours and weeks go? Persistent and influential dissent is sometimes more powerful than bullies. And UTC is overridden every time it disagrees by one minute with the true GMT standard. SI is a little bogus. You know what I mean?) Arthur 02:42 Mar 20, 2003 (UTC)
Some of the authors on this page argued that one system was more intuitive than the other. I don't think this is true. It only depends on where (and with which system) you were raised. To take the Fahrenheit example: For me - being raised with Celsius - Fahrenheit is a complete mystery with (seemingly) no fixed points: The upper limit is slightly above body temperature, whereas the lower limit is at some place I really can't imagine why anyone could be interested in this particular temperature. On the other hand I know that 0° Celsius means that water becomes ice, and 100° means that water boils (well, if you're somewhere near sea-level). Perfectly intuitive for me.
But that's the point: It is only intuitive to me because I was raised with this system and never knew something else. If I were born in Northern America I would surely think differently. But I'm not, and so all those inches and miles and pints and gallons seem very strange to my metric, decimal brain. So we should keep in mind that whenever we use only one of the systems, we make it difficult for a lot of the people out there to understand about what we are talking.
Something about standardization: This is a good thing because it avoids ambiguity and in the long run it makes it easier to understand each other. There is nothing imperialistic or patronizing about trying to agree to international standards. And let me add that my Syrian baker around the corner surely has a different definition of imperialism than you, Arthur.
We now use the Euro more than a year here in Germany and sometimes I still find myself calculating the "real" DM prices. But when you visit other European countries, you see the benefits of standardization however hard the migration seemed. If you never intend to leave your country, you might see no benefit in this, and yes, you could be right that standardization makes things more difficult for you, personally.
But even though standardization is a good thing in theory, at the moment most people are used to only one system. So why not using the pragmatic approach that is already outlined in the Manual of Style (dates and numbers) and provide both units for convenience. That's the great thing about Wikipedia. If you stumble across a unit you don't understand, just look it up and update the page.
Just my 2 Cents (your decision if Euro or Dollar). Maksim 19:44 25 May 2003 (UTC)
Why not use metric units of measurement ( the international norm) rather than the idiosyncratic system still in use in the USA? I find it very time consuming converting inches , degrees fahrenheit and so on. Martin Pierard Melbourne Australia
I'm one person who hates the metric system precisely because of the attributes its advocates admire:the system is too simple to have any character! And I think it speaks volumes that virtually the only reason metric has ever been adopted anywhere is that governments prohibited the use of systems people preferred to use.--Louis Epstein/12.144.5.2/le@put.com
Today I received a private message from user:Maverick149 after editing the Florida wiki
"Hello - please do not switch the order of U.S. and metric in any article. Doing so introduces conversion errors and confusion. You should assume that figures given in articles are measured units, so please don't replace them with converted figures. It is also not nice to relegate the form you found to second class status (either way). Thank you. --mav 10:15, 30 May 2004 (UTC) "
In the process of editing Florida, I found that many measures where only in imperial, so I converted them to metric and then rounded up or down to make it easier for any potential reader to understand them. Maybe iwould better to say "1.6 km (1 mi aprox)" instead of "1.6 km (1 mi)", to avoid "confusion".
The rest of the article gave measures in imperial first, then metric in brackets. As I feel that the average american reader can understand metric provided that an imperial equivalent is given in brackets, I reversed the order of appearance.
I am aware that many readers of the english wikipedia are from the US. However I don't feel that stating "(Geography - rv U.S. topic so U.S. standard goes first)" in the history page is a valid reason. Both metric and imperial are legal in the USA.
Furthermore, that an article might refer to the US does not mean that the reader must necesarely be from the States (it is plausible for an australian reader to consult the "Florida" wiki). Metric is used around the globe, and it is taught in US schools. Therefore, metric should have prevalence over imperial in the order of appearance if posible.
Please note that I didn't remove imperial figures, just put them in brackets after metric ones. I fail to see how doing so equals to relegate them to second class status,
(It is perfectly understandable that some exceptions should exist for this rule, for instance the Floppy disk).
Please do not answer unless you are a native of a region in which the metric system (systeme internationale) is commonly used in everyday life. Consider the following three sentences:
Suppose that the blanks were to be filled in with an equivalent, using a metric unit of area. What unit of area would you expect to see used? What unit is most familiar, understandable, useful, comfortable to you? Dpbsmith 12:07, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Rmhermen drew my attention to the fact that this issue has not yet reached consensus on the hectares versus km² issue. I made a bounded proposal (I can't remember where it was now!) a while back. I welcome further comments here and/or a bounded counter proposal. Since the debate affects metric readers more than non-metric readers, please indicate within your comments whether you would count yourself generally as a metric reader or a non-metric reader. Thanks.
Bobblewik 15:48, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Trinity site is currently a good example of an article that is highly perplexing to American readers, because (nearly) all of the measures of distances are given in metric units. Now, I know that a 'metre' (or 'meter') is about the same as a yard, but I have no intuitive grasp of how far '9000 metres' is. The article has always been that way, it isn't that someone just ruthlessly changed it.
The funny thing is that some measurements in the article are in Imperial units, but ironically only those of the small quantities that people can probably convert in their heads easily enough.
I have nothing to add to the debate that hasn't already been said. Often we should give both units, somehow, and context matters, and blah blah blah. Yes to all that. :-) I just wanted to comment on how perplexing the metric system is to me. Jimbo Wales 08:22, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I would like to protest the mechanical, universal addition of metric measurements to all US topic articles that is now occurring. I would like to see what the consensus is, and if there is support for my position. Please see my more complete entry at Wikipedia Talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Protest to universal addition of metric measurements to US topic articles. Thank you. -- Gary D 00:09, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Could specific pages where problems might occur have a no bot property added? Even a nobot tag similar to nowiki? This might help with protecting things like "9mm (name of gun)". AdmN 20:05, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)
What makes you think that only Americans would read US topic articles? What makes you think metric is anti-US? Metric is taught in American schools, and it's used by scientists, engineers, doctors, and other professionals all over the US.
Someone added the intelligence to a folktale reported at John the Conqueror that sixty acres equalled (243,000 m²) in metric. Apart from being a perfect example of the uselessness of the metric system in real life situations and human-scale applications, this struck me as glaringly inappropriate. I removed the metric reference from the article, but preserved it on the talk page. Smerdis of Tlön 19:55, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
FWIW, I suspect this conversation gives an incorrect impression. I'd bet (play) money that pro-metric American Wikipedians outnumber anti-metric American wikipedians. First, there is plenty of popular support for metrication in the US, mixed with opposition and mostly just inertia. Second, in the particular case of Wikipedia, the case for standard units is quite clear, and (my guess) especially likely to appeal to enyclopaedists. Third, knowledge of metric units is not as weak in the US as implied in parts of this debate.
Note that by pro-metric and anti-metric, I'm meaning general emotional attitude toward the system, and don't mean to imply that there is a binary issue here to decide for or against the metric system! I just want a more accurate impression to be given of the people of a country to which I have some fond attachment. Pekinensis 15:33, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Pekinensis, I'd take that bet in a heartbeat--and I'd use real money. We Americans don't like metric crap, and we get annoyed at being told that we "should" switch. Why? To benefit European tourists? Funnyhat 04:26, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
We Americans don't like metric crap, and we get annoyed at being told that we "should" switch.
I haven't followed this debate, so don't know the issues. There's an editor going around adding metric conversions in brackets after every measurement, and it's interfering somewhat with the quality of writing in some cases: for example, one article ended up with the description "an 800,000 metre estate". I feel we should bear in mind that articles should be well written so that people want to read them, because if they don't, this whole enterprise is pointless; any ideology that causes the writing to deteriorate should therefore take a back seat, especially when it comes to an issue like weights and measures. Readers can look up their own conversion tables if the issue matters to them. I'm sure it is sometimes helpful to add these details, but sometimes it isn't, so please let's not adopt a one-size-fits-all policy. SlimVirgin 00:51, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)
On an American article which sentence should be used:
On US related articles should Imperial come first followed by metric and vice versa for non-US? commonbrick 18:25, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
May I remind the readers from the U.S.A. of their national law? (bolding by Woodstone 22:10, 2005 Jun 12 (UTC)):
So it appears to me that even in articles dealing with the U.S.A. the SI units should be given first and then optionally the Imperial units.
Put the most accurate measure first with its conversion (if warrented) in brackets. If the measurement was done in one system, then this is going to be the most accurate. If the source uses one system, it's fair to assume that this the system in which the measurement was done. Where accuracy is not an issue or it's not possible to determine which is the most accurate then the question arrises as to which to put first.
In this case metric should be generally preferred unless there exists a good reason to prefer something else. The only good reason I can think of is a case in which metric is not the usual system of measurement. For example: in articles about US topics (perhaps), in articles about certain historical matters, in (aero)nautical articals (in which the nautical mile and knots should be used) or in articles on special/general relativity (where c would be preferred over m/s).
However, metric is always appropriate where Imperial/US measurements are. Thus wherever Imperial/US measurements are given metric equivalents should also be given. This, of course, is not to demand that all writers do their own conversions: just let them be done.
Jimp 15Jun05
Either use: 1) Metric units only 2) Metric units with imperial units in parentheses
The consensus above seems to be that metric should be given most favoured measurement system status, so is there anyone who can't live with this very simple solution? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kennethmac2000 ( talk • contribs) July 2, 2005 23:46 (UTC)
As a proud Midwesterner I want to simply ask "why?" Why can't we Americans grasp the superiority of the Metric/SI units and switch? The purpose of Wikipedia is to inform and the only way Americans will switch is if we're forced to, so please only Metric units! We will learn and figure it out. Please don't "misunderestimate" us and assume we aren't capable of learning the Metric system, we just need a little shove. Metric only, Americans will just have to use their know-how and figure it out. EdwinHJ | Talk 02:03, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
For current style guidelines for units of measure, please see Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers).
This page is currently inactive and is retained for
historical reference. Either the page is no longer relevant or consensus on its purpose has become unclear. To revive discussion, seek broader input via a forum such as the village pump. |
Moved from Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style
What's the preferred style for units? In your example for numbers etc. you use both m (metre) and kilograms (kg). I'd say the abbreviations for SI units are quite well established (well, outside of the US anyway) and are hardly seen written in full, but I'm not sure about the imperial units, one sees 10 yard, 10 y, 10 yd, 10 yards, etc. Any rules for this? Jeronimo
I know, but they will be used in many articles no doubt, if only as a secondary to the SI units. Jeronimo
I don't think it's "the right thing to do" to completely remove US Imperial measurements. I've noticed all-too-often in this discussion a caustic attitude to any objections concerning the deletion of US Imperial from articles; but the fact is, even if the United States is the only country using that system of measurements, Americans are still a significant presence on Wikipedia (and the internet at large!). Attempts by other Wikipedians to disadvantage them, forcing a system many do not have a sense of familiarity with (although it's taught in most American schools, because the US Imperial system is more prevalent here, most Americans will have a better sense of scale with those) .... this comes off as slightly amusing given that Wikipedia's based in Florida. The fact that Wikipedia is based in Florida plays no argument at all for a global internet community.
Again, I'm not saying that Wikipedia should cater ONLY to Americans and use US Imperial; that's absurd. By the same token, it should be recognized that given the user base, US Imperial simply cannot be thrown away, lest you devalue the worth of this encyclopedia to a significant amount of users. I believe the dual system, with order of appearance judging on the article, to be a fair compromise. --anon who forgot to sign anonymously
I read once that the EU is larger economically than the US, but that is by the by... Metrication is an ongoing process, which won't ever get any faster is projects like this don't nudge it along a little. This is an international project, and the SI system is the internationally recognized standard. I say we drag people kicking and screaming into the 20th century. -- Tarquin
For further reference, the US is larger econonomically than the EU.
European Union purchasing power parity - $11.65 trillion (2004 est.) [1]
United States purchasing power parity - $11.75 trillion (2004 est.) [2] Jimbobsween 23:19, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
The UK decimalised on 15th February 1971. We joined the Common Market (later known as the EU) in 1973. The metrication process began in 1965, and as you say, it's been a slow process. It's true that metriccation was condition of Common Market entry but since it was already goernment policy this was a non-binding constraint. Loose food was metricated on 1st January, 2000. It's not exactly illegal to sell in pounds and ounces. You must display the food price in metric, but you may also display in "supplementary units" provided that they are no larger or more prominent than the metric display. You may ask for the product in any units, but the vendor must weigh or measure it in metric. The receipt must be in metric. Blaise 15:08, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I simply use SI or metric and link to the appropriate unit article -- many of which already have conversion factors and links to a great online converter. See square kilometre. This is one of the way we were able to reduce the hideously wide countries tables to their current much leaner state. If and only if there is room, it seems appropriate in context and if it doesn't confuse things, should we use the American system (So long as links to the right unit article are included of course). See the boiling/melting point part of the barium table for an example of this. -- mav
They just put miles on the signs. All the measurements are actually in km, though. Or so they say... - Omegatron 04:05, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)
The USA has used metric (in an indirect sense) for quite some time (for over a century IIRC) -- American version of imperial units have been defined in terms of metric units (e.g. the inch is defined to be 2.54cm). -- Naoto
We can all understand the words "color" and "colour". Having two types of units, however, can be a source of confusion. (NASA, anyone?) -- Tarquin
Much of the above discussion seems to imply that Imperial and American Customary units are the same, which they are not. If you say a litre, everyone agrees how large that is, whereas a pint is different in Britain and America, and in America there are different volumes for wet and dry measures. Similarly an ounce could refer to a fluid ounce, a troy ounce or an avoirdupois ounce. Even the mile has statute and nautical variants. The advantage of the metric system is that it is unambiguous. Chris Q 10:13 Sep 16, 2002 (UTC)
Discussion copied from
Talk:SI for wider circulation here, giving once again reasons for using the common US system and showing confusion between
SI and
metric:
<begin>
I have a friend who was raised in France, speaks French and is a college-educated automobile mechanic who in 25 years went through the transition from Imperial to metric system with several lines of cars, including teaching it to other mechanics, and he has never heard the expression SI. Hence, I added the word "metric" to this article.
Ortolan88
Wait a minute here. I thought that the cgs system is what is commonly called the metric system and SI is simply the International Standard used by scientists (based on m, kg, s)? I also thought that most nations use a hybrid system made up of SI and cgs units. If the opening paragraph is correct then temperatures in Europe are measured and displayed in Kelvin and not degrees Celsius. -- mav
>I thought that the cgs system is what is commonly called the metric system and SI is simply >the International Standard used by scientists
No. The metric system has undergone revisions from time to time. CGS became MKS (metre-kilogram-second), which became SI. Most countries use a mixture of SI, non-SI units related to SI (e.g. litres and hectares) and non-SI units unrelated to SI (feet, for aircraft altitudes; nautical miles). Blaise 15:21, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I was going by the
metric article and the metric-fan additions to
Wikipedia:Manual of Style. It seems both these articles are wrong, from what you say. Every time I try to speak up for the 260 million non-metric Americans, I am treated to a condescending lecture on how superior the metric system is. I have never said it isn't superior (except for temperature), but that isn't the issue. The issue is ease of use of the wikipedia by the world's largest internet nation. It is too damn bad the US has been so slow and reluctant and whatever to adopt the metric system, and it is slowly coming in now, but we still don't use it in everyday life, so if we want to know how tall a
hippopotamus is, someone is going to have to help us out. It is with some schadenfreude (delight at the discomfort of those you disagree with) at this indication that even metric enthusiasts are not sure what the difference between metric and
SI is.
Ortolan88
<end>
I regularly come across pages that have only Imperial units. Can I be so bold as to change these to metric and put the Imperial measurements in parenthesis or should it be vice-versa? Scipius 20:01 Nov 3, 2002 (UTC)
I support links like 2.3 km (1.4 mi). Only articles about units of measurement (or sentences about units of measurement in articles about something else) need to link directly to Kilometre or Mile. — Toby 02:23 Nov 17, 2002 (UTC)
Sometimes the context determines which units are reasonable ( Principle of least astonishment). For example, an article on London should give a travel distance in miles, not kilometers.
Otherwise, dictating that units should be converted to a standard appears to be inconsistent with the firm Wikipedia policy that Wikipedia is freely editable. If an author uses units that are clearly awkward, such as "1.60934 km", another author might change this to "1 mi.". If an author is not a resident of countries that use Imperial units, they might prefer to use "km." instead of "mi.".
There is a larger issue: if there is to be one English Wikipedia that is to be used internationally, what would be appropriate style rules for locale? (Locale includes collating order, date and time formats, thousands separator character in numbers, British/USAian spelling, units of measurement, etc. I could not find a specific discussion of this issue in either Wikipedia or Meta Wikipedia. David 20:18 Jan 3, 2003 (UTC)
Another thing to bear in mind -- gallons and pints are ambiguous. technically, so are miles. (nautical, survey, but it's safe to assume which one just "mile" means). Furthermore, in the UK, it is highly unusual to give a figure in pounds over 14. 14 pounds make a stone in the Imperial system (or maybe 16. or 18. heck, I don't know.) -- Tarquin 22:49 Jan 11, 2003 (UTC)
Just to toss another monkey into the wrenchworks here. The English and American units are much more natural and human scale. An inch is a knuckle, a foot is the length of a foot, a yard is as long as an arm, a mile is a good walk, a pound is a handful, 0 fahrenheit is real cold, 100 fahrenheit is body temperature and also real hot, 200 fahrenheit will burn you, that mischievous guy, Ortolan88
Just looked the page for the first time. I don't have any solutions, just some observations -
Europe has officially set the target for going completely metric by 2009, yet vast numbers of people still think only in imperial units. Just because a bureaucrat in Brussels says 'Europe is metric' doesn't make it so. (Usually going by the EU, the safe option is to believe the exact opposite of what Brussels bureaucratic thinks!) I know my class all studied through metric, yet we still use both systems. Our road signs say miles, our cars tell speeds in kilometres. We buy litres of soft drink, but drink 'pints' of alcohol. I bake a christmas cake using imperial measurements yet fahrenheit is no longer used or even recognised. (Watching CBS News the other night, they told how cold it was in the US by giving a number in fahrenheit. Neither my flatmate (23 years old) nor I (mid 30s) had a clue what Dan Rather meant.) I suppose what all that means is that Wikipedia shouldn't use one system or the other - just because someone uses kilograms doesn't mean they don't think in miles, or use miles doesn't mean they don't use celsius. I know that is made all the worse by different imperial unit meanings in the US and elsewhere. (Not to mention spelling. We may not think in kilometres, but we still prefer seeing them spelt kilometres not kilometers!) The bottom line is, there is no simple solution. I'm all for standardising things that can be standardised on Wiki, but this is one issue where if you try to limit use to one, vast numbers of Wiki users from somewhere will not have a clue about the meaning. JTD 02:59 Mar 1, 2003 (UTC)
Leaving aside the atheistic, French revolutionary roots of the metric system, and the vile scourge of creeping decimalism, the chief advantage of the traditional or Imperial system is that it allows other divisors, and does not participate in the monomaniacal insistence on powers of 10. This makes it far more useful in the kitchen, where you may well be called upon to multiply a recipe by three, or take a recipe that feeds four and convert it to feed two, or one, but it's much less likely that you will be called upon to multiply or divide your recipe by 10. The metric system probably has value in science, engineering, or other fields where higher math will be applied; it is useless around the house. The Celsius temperatures are much too loose and sloppy to apply to anything like the weather; but Fahrenheit just marked 0 the coldest temperature he recorded in a year, and 100 the hottest [see below - David], so it works well for weather in the temperate zone. I say that if a rule is required use whichever measures do the best job for what you're talking about: metric for science and physics, imperial for anything you will actually encounter in real life. -- IHCOYC 03:37 Mar 1, 2003 (UTC)
The guideline should be simple enough:
Tannin 09:02 Mar 1, 2003 (UTC)
Concerning the Fahrenheit temperature scale, a statement made above, and Web site [3] attempt to explain its origin. However, they are incorrect. The Web site claims that the true origins are unknown, which is also incorrect. Some sites, such as [4], like many others, simply invent the origins (for example, that the freezing point of water was arbitrarily set as 32°). Sites such as [5] have almost the correct information. [6] correctly explains that the freezing point was determined by measuring the lowest temperature achievable in a laboratory, which of course resulted by mixing water, ice, and salt in the right proportions (not equally) and letting it sit until the temperature is stable. (He did not want negative temperatures). Laughable today, perhaps, but it made sense in 1714 when he did his experiments. [7] explains that the upper bound came from measuring the internal temperature of a healthy person and calling it 96 degrees (that site explains why).
Other scales include the Réaumur (1730), Rømer (1730+), Kelvin (1862), and Rankine (ca. 1860). See, e.g., [8].
David 19:49 Mar 3, 2003 (UTC)
I find it amazing that people make statements about metric temperature measurements not having enough accuracy for weather readings. Celsius is perfect for weather, 0 is freezing, 0-10 cold, 10-20 cool, 20-30 moderate, 30-40 hot, 40-50 very hot. Easy! People who claim that Celsius doesn't have enough accuracy are just pulling at straws. Most people won't notice a difference of 1 degree Celsius and if that much accuracy is required then throw in a decimal point.
Maybe one already exists, but in case it doesn't,
For example, Dublin is 30 [table page|mile]s (48 km) from Navan or Dublin is 48 [table page|km] (30 miles) from Navan.
The trouble with asking authors to 'convert' is that while some people are comfortable with doing mathematical conversions, others haven't a clue and no matter how simple the equation might feel uncomfortable doing so in case they made the proverbial balls of it. I know for example the height of Nelson's Pillar in feet, the distance between Cork and Dublin in miles, but would baulk at having to convert them to kilometres. (I suspect some people would simply leave out information rather than have to do conversions. )
Furthermore, saying the 'metric is easier because everyone bar the US uses it is simply not true. Even where metric is officially the standard (eg Ireland) a significant proportion of people use or think imperial. I can't think of a single Irish person who measures human height in metres; everyone says five feet eight inches, six foot one inch, etc. Everyone thinks human weight in stones and pounds, not kilograms (not do they use simply pounds). They measure distance in miles. Windspeed is given in the Beaufort scale or in miles per hour, never kilometres per hour. Yet officially Ireland is a metricated country. The same is true in the UK, where some use metric, some imperial, some think different measurements in different systems. JtdIrL 21:37 Mar 3, 2003 (UTC)
Although I can have sympathy for a people grown up with a tradition of untis with direct links to the Roman empire and beyond, for scientific purposes there certainly is no issue whatsoever. No, I will not mention the Mars probe, but instead simply ask anyone who are in doubt to compare a collection of physical formulae in Imperial to one in SI units. An image of a "disaster area" does really spring to my mind. -- Egil 11:11 Mar 15, 2003 (UTC)
Fix it in software?
When I started reading the Wikipedia documentation, I was pleasantly surprised to note that MediaWiki is able to convert (properly formatted) dates to match one's preference setting for date display. I was a little less surprised that such a fix had not been implemented to deal with the unit conversion discussed ad nauseum on this page. I realize this would tax both the developers and the servers, but wouldn't the end result be more elegant than our current solution?
This feature is already being discussed at MediaWiki feature request and bug report discussion if anyone would like to contribute to this discussion there. -- Jarsyl 08:01, 2004 Aug 6 (UTC)
[[48 m]]
(or other sintax) the MediaWiki can make the adequate conversion to the user preferences, and when the user has not logged in it will show both units like this: "
48 m (29.8 mi)" i.e. [[1 E4 m|48 m (29.8 mi)]]
(note the automatic addition of a link to the
orders of magnitude page, and the between every value and its unit). --
surueña 07:44, 2005 May 27 (UTC)I'm curious about the persistent colonialism here. Why bully others? "Everyone except a few people in the US?" A few? Certainly more than the entire population of your country. And who cares if the EU has a big economy? "What's that got to do with ... rights? If my cup won't hold but a pint, and yours holds a quart, wouldn't you be mean not to let me have my little half measure full?" And ain't we human? Let us be. Why this desire to dominate? We have units. You have units. All God's children got units. No one's asking to exclude whatever-the-hell those SI things are. Don't insist that we be excluded either. Behaviour, Behavior, Whatever. (Oh! And don't think that the issue is resolved. Where'd France's newfangled decimal hours and weeks go? Persistent and influential dissent is sometimes more powerful than bullies. And UTC is overridden every time it disagrees by one minute with the true GMT standard. SI is a little bogus. You know what I mean?) Arthur 02:42 Mar 20, 2003 (UTC)
Some of the authors on this page argued that one system was more intuitive than the other. I don't think this is true. It only depends on where (and with which system) you were raised. To take the Fahrenheit example: For me - being raised with Celsius - Fahrenheit is a complete mystery with (seemingly) no fixed points: The upper limit is slightly above body temperature, whereas the lower limit is at some place I really can't imagine why anyone could be interested in this particular temperature. On the other hand I know that 0° Celsius means that water becomes ice, and 100° means that water boils (well, if you're somewhere near sea-level). Perfectly intuitive for me.
But that's the point: It is only intuitive to me because I was raised with this system and never knew something else. If I were born in Northern America I would surely think differently. But I'm not, and so all those inches and miles and pints and gallons seem very strange to my metric, decimal brain. So we should keep in mind that whenever we use only one of the systems, we make it difficult for a lot of the people out there to understand about what we are talking.
Something about standardization: This is a good thing because it avoids ambiguity and in the long run it makes it easier to understand each other. There is nothing imperialistic or patronizing about trying to agree to international standards. And let me add that my Syrian baker around the corner surely has a different definition of imperialism than you, Arthur.
We now use the Euro more than a year here in Germany and sometimes I still find myself calculating the "real" DM prices. But when you visit other European countries, you see the benefits of standardization however hard the migration seemed. If you never intend to leave your country, you might see no benefit in this, and yes, you could be right that standardization makes things more difficult for you, personally.
But even though standardization is a good thing in theory, at the moment most people are used to only one system. So why not using the pragmatic approach that is already outlined in the Manual of Style (dates and numbers) and provide both units for convenience. That's the great thing about Wikipedia. If you stumble across a unit you don't understand, just look it up and update the page.
Just my 2 Cents (your decision if Euro or Dollar). Maksim 19:44 25 May 2003 (UTC)
Why not use metric units of measurement ( the international norm) rather than the idiosyncratic system still in use in the USA? I find it very time consuming converting inches , degrees fahrenheit and so on. Martin Pierard Melbourne Australia
I'm one person who hates the metric system precisely because of the attributes its advocates admire:the system is too simple to have any character! And I think it speaks volumes that virtually the only reason metric has ever been adopted anywhere is that governments prohibited the use of systems people preferred to use.--Louis Epstein/12.144.5.2/le@put.com
Today I received a private message from user:Maverick149 after editing the Florida wiki
"Hello - please do not switch the order of U.S. and metric in any article. Doing so introduces conversion errors and confusion. You should assume that figures given in articles are measured units, so please don't replace them with converted figures. It is also not nice to relegate the form you found to second class status (either way). Thank you. --mav 10:15, 30 May 2004 (UTC) "
In the process of editing Florida, I found that many measures where only in imperial, so I converted them to metric and then rounded up or down to make it easier for any potential reader to understand them. Maybe iwould better to say "1.6 km (1 mi aprox)" instead of "1.6 km (1 mi)", to avoid "confusion".
The rest of the article gave measures in imperial first, then metric in brackets. As I feel that the average american reader can understand metric provided that an imperial equivalent is given in brackets, I reversed the order of appearance.
I am aware that many readers of the english wikipedia are from the US. However I don't feel that stating "(Geography - rv U.S. topic so U.S. standard goes first)" in the history page is a valid reason. Both metric and imperial are legal in the USA.
Furthermore, that an article might refer to the US does not mean that the reader must necesarely be from the States (it is plausible for an australian reader to consult the "Florida" wiki). Metric is used around the globe, and it is taught in US schools. Therefore, metric should have prevalence over imperial in the order of appearance if posible.
Please note that I didn't remove imperial figures, just put them in brackets after metric ones. I fail to see how doing so equals to relegate them to second class status,
(It is perfectly understandable that some exceptions should exist for this rule, for instance the Floppy disk).
Please do not answer unless you are a native of a region in which the metric system (systeme internationale) is commonly used in everyday life. Consider the following three sentences:
Suppose that the blanks were to be filled in with an equivalent, using a metric unit of area. What unit of area would you expect to see used? What unit is most familiar, understandable, useful, comfortable to you? Dpbsmith 12:07, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Rmhermen drew my attention to the fact that this issue has not yet reached consensus on the hectares versus km² issue. I made a bounded proposal (I can't remember where it was now!) a while back. I welcome further comments here and/or a bounded counter proposal. Since the debate affects metric readers more than non-metric readers, please indicate within your comments whether you would count yourself generally as a metric reader or a non-metric reader. Thanks.
Bobblewik 15:48, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Trinity site is currently a good example of an article that is highly perplexing to American readers, because (nearly) all of the measures of distances are given in metric units. Now, I know that a 'metre' (or 'meter') is about the same as a yard, but I have no intuitive grasp of how far '9000 metres' is. The article has always been that way, it isn't that someone just ruthlessly changed it.
The funny thing is that some measurements in the article are in Imperial units, but ironically only those of the small quantities that people can probably convert in their heads easily enough.
I have nothing to add to the debate that hasn't already been said. Often we should give both units, somehow, and context matters, and blah blah blah. Yes to all that. :-) I just wanted to comment on how perplexing the metric system is to me. Jimbo Wales 08:22, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I would like to protest the mechanical, universal addition of metric measurements to all US topic articles that is now occurring. I would like to see what the consensus is, and if there is support for my position. Please see my more complete entry at Wikipedia Talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Protest to universal addition of metric measurements to US topic articles. Thank you. -- Gary D 00:09, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Could specific pages where problems might occur have a no bot property added? Even a nobot tag similar to nowiki? This might help with protecting things like "9mm (name of gun)". AdmN 20:05, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)
What makes you think that only Americans would read US topic articles? What makes you think metric is anti-US? Metric is taught in American schools, and it's used by scientists, engineers, doctors, and other professionals all over the US.
Someone added the intelligence to a folktale reported at John the Conqueror that sixty acres equalled (243,000 m²) in metric. Apart from being a perfect example of the uselessness of the metric system in real life situations and human-scale applications, this struck me as glaringly inappropriate. I removed the metric reference from the article, but preserved it on the talk page. Smerdis of Tlön 19:55, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
FWIW, I suspect this conversation gives an incorrect impression. I'd bet (play) money that pro-metric American Wikipedians outnumber anti-metric American wikipedians. First, there is plenty of popular support for metrication in the US, mixed with opposition and mostly just inertia. Second, in the particular case of Wikipedia, the case for standard units is quite clear, and (my guess) especially likely to appeal to enyclopaedists. Third, knowledge of metric units is not as weak in the US as implied in parts of this debate.
Note that by pro-metric and anti-metric, I'm meaning general emotional attitude toward the system, and don't mean to imply that there is a binary issue here to decide for or against the metric system! I just want a more accurate impression to be given of the people of a country to which I have some fond attachment. Pekinensis 15:33, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Pekinensis, I'd take that bet in a heartbeat--and I'd use real money. We Americans don't like metric crap, and we get annoyed at being told that we "should" switch. Why? To benefit European tourists? Funnyhat 04:26, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
We Americans don't like metric crap, and we get annoyed at being told that we "should" switch.
I haven't followed this debate, so don't know the issues. There's an editor going around adding metric conversions in brackets after every measurement, and it's interfering somewhat with the quality of writing in some cases: for example, one article ended up with the description "an 800,000 metre estate". I feel we should bear in mind that articles should be well written so that people want to read them, because if they don't, this whole enterprise is pointless; any ideology that causes the writing to deteriorate should therefore take a back seat, especially when it comes to an issue like weights and measures. Readers can look up their own conversion tables if the issue matters to them. I'm sure it is sometimes helpful to add these details, but sometimes it isn't, so please let's not adopt a one-size-fits-all policy. SlimVirgin 00:51, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)
On an American article which sentence should be used:
On US related articles should Imperial come first followed by metric and vice versa for non-US? commonbrick 18:25, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
May I remind the readers from the U.S.A. of their national law? (bolding by Woodstone 22:10, 2005 Jun 12 (UTC)):
So it appears to me that even in articles dealing with the U.S.A. the SI units should be given first and then optionally the Imperial units.
Put the most accurate measure first with its conversion (if warrented) in brackets. If the measurement was done in one system, then this is going to be the most accurate. If the source uses one system, it's fair to assume that this the system in which the measurement was done. Where accuracy is not an issue or it's not possible to determine which is the most accurate then the question arrises as to which to put first.
In this case metric should be generally preferred unless there exists a good reason to prefer something else. The only good reason I can think of is a case in which metric is not the usual system of measurement. For example: in articles about US topics (perhaps), in articles about certain historical matters, in (aero)nautical articals (in which the nautical mile and knots should be used) or in articles on special/general relativity (where c would be preferred over m/s).
However, metric is always appropriate where Imperial/US measurements are. Thus wherever Imperial/US measurements are given metric equivalents should also be given. This, of course, is not to demand that all writers do their own conversions: just let them be done.
Jimp 15Jun05
Either use: 1) Metric units only 2) Metric units with imperial units in parentheses
The consensus above seems to be that metric should be given most favoured measurement system status, so is there anyone who can't live with this very simple solution? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kennethmac2000 ( talk • contribs) July 2, 2005 23:46 (UTC)
As a proud Midwesterner I want to simply ask "why?" Why can't we Americans grasp the superiority of the Metric/SI units and switch? The purpose of Wikipedia is to inform and the only way Americans will switch is if we're forced to, so please only Metric units! We will learn and figure it out. Please don't "misunderestimate" us and assume we aren't capable of learning the Metric system, we just need a little shove. Metric only, Americans will just have to use their know-how and figure it out. EdwinHJ | Talk 02:03, 23 July 2005 (UTC)