![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 |
Hi Growth team. As reported over on WP:VPR, Asilvering has the homepage enabled; they have a mentor relationship that appears to be with User:Elli - however on their homepage they don't get the "Your Mentor" section at all (but do get the rest of the page). What should be checked next? — xaosflux Talk 18:51, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
growthsetmenteestatus
api call, but lets not try that yet. —
xaosflux
Talk
18:34, 28 February 2022 (UTC)#mentor
magic word works and can be reliably used in (welcome) templates and similar (
the idea of integrating Growth mentorship is covered by MediaWiki.org). Currently, apart from the action=growthsetmenteestatus
API call @
Xaosflux discovered, it's not possible to enable mentorship after registration. Once
phab:T287915 is done, users will be able to opt out from mentorship and opt back in. Completing that task would make it easy to let mentorship start as opt out (instead of disabled) via
phab:T301456, letting anyone to turn it on if so desired.Hello! So I just thought of an issue with this. Some mentor's will have their talk pages temporarily semi-protected due to persistent vandalism. The issue comes with them being a mentor. Because their user talk page is protected, new users won't be able to ask their mentors any questions because they probably won't be autoconfirmed yet. Would it be possible for questions that come from the mentorship module (aka New User Homepage) to bypass any protection on the talk page? ― Blaze Wolf TalkBlaze Wolf#6545 17:57, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
Hi everyone -- today, we started giving the Growth features to 100% of new accounts, with 10% receiving mentorship (based on the RfC which closed last week). So we should expect to see 4 times as many suggested edits and twice as many mentor questions as we had been seeing. We'll be keeping our eyes on the numbers. Thank you all for helping us get to this important point: the Growth features are now the default newcomer experience on English Wikipedia!
In terms of next steps, our team is going to be thinking about whether/how we should make the features available to all the other accounts that were created in the past. Perhaps there are "newish" users who would find value in the Growth features, and perhaps even experienced users would like to do suggested edits, see their impact, or at least be able to browse the Growth features just to see them. We're thinking about these "all the other accounts" in two groups:
This next step of turning the Growth features on for "all other accounts" would not be happening imminently, and we would try it on other Wikipedias first. But if anyone here has thoughts on whether or how to do this, I would like to hear! MMiller (WMF) ( talk) 23:43, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
growthexperiments-homepage-mentorship-enabled
to allow them to make use of their mentor, this is what I was referring to. I don't think we should force on those first 2 options for "older accounts" at all. I don't think we should enable *-pt-link for the existing users, especially not if they have already initiated their userpage. As far as force enabling *-homepage-enable: should be safe for anyone that isn't autoconfirmed, would need feedback from others if it should be higher. —
xaosflux
Talk
01:22, 8 March 2022 (UTC)Since we dont have any colors or a logo I kept the userbox pretty simple. Please let me know here if you have any suggestions I should make to the userbox to make it better. The template code is this {{Growth Team features mentor}}
, and here is what it looks like. {{Growth Team features mentor}} [nowikied by
CX Zoom]
― Kaleeb18 TalkCaleb 22:30, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
{{Growth Team features mentor}}
to {{User Growth Team features mentor}}
per
Wikipedia:WikiProject Userboxes § Guide to moving userboxes &
Wikipedia:Userboxes § Namespace. The appearance of the template remains the same, see
![]() | This user is a Mentor for new editors at the Wikipedia Growth Team. |
--- CX Zoom(he/him) ( let's talk| contribs) 13:14, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
{{
User mentor}}
. This adds
Category:Wikipedians who mentor new users to your userpage. Details
here.This user is a Mentor to new editors see: Homepage features |
Cheers, Nick Moyes ( talk) 22:51, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
I'd like to raise the issue of finding and deploying a suitable logo to identify the mentorship element of Growth Team Features. You might see this as trivial, but I'm currently reworking the Adopt-a-user page, and needed to refer to the new mentorship scheme with an identifiable image that sums up what it does.
I've found four possibilities so far, and have deployed no. 1) at WP:AAU for now, as it seems the strongest and simplest. Despite its title, the file is not actually used at WP:RETENTION. No 2) seems too obscure and high-brow; 3) would need to be redone in English, and 4) seems pretty good, but doesn't quite encapsulate the 1-2-1 element of support (though it could be seen as a random selection of new users, all needing a mentor!).
Further additions: 5) Sums up the Q&A nature of mentorship; 6) is the logo for the Growth Team features, but does not sum up the element of the mentor/mentee relationship.
I feel happy to use 1) to refer to mentorship, but wanted to seek input and ideas from other editors.
Nick Moyes (
talk)
01:16, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
One query I do have, however: Nick Moyes, is this due to an interest of stemming off the mentorship program into a separate, official feature, or simply a way to identify it? As in, all of these features (the Homepage, Help Panel, Mentorship) all build up this page we're currently on. Are you looking for a scheme so you can split off Mentorship into its own page, and this current page will simply speak generally of it? If so, I would support the concept; a place to organize Mentorship information for both mentors and mentees alike, like the adoption program, would be beneficial in my opinion. I feel the mentor list is cluttered with the instructions and FAQ, anyways. Panini! • 🥪 23:14, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
I cannot find the home now. I feel this is the place to ask. My apologies as I am trying to learn how to interpret into technological language as I go. I think in a pattern that is best described as “musicophilia,” - thinking in old and new verse/music and letting that guide me. I just am looking for some nice tea if that’s available. Thank you. Tl:dr is there a mentor available? Muchmi ( talk) 20:45, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
Again apologies if I’m replying in wrong area. Is there a coding option available for new users to go to a “false-secondary weblink” that doesn’t actually change anything? It could trigger the “tea-house” response when someone tries to edit, without actually editing anything. Then the creator can choose to approve or deny the edits based on intended design. Like a Matrix loop that holds a door open without worrying so much about constant reviewing. I assume the goal is to move forward as a whole in this Java language, tho I think in Janus.
TL:DR instead of accidental edits, the link for new users is false and triggers a point of review to the page creators to decide to “approve or deny” the edit. I would hope that would keep curiosity engaged with less strain in the creators. Muchmi ( talk) 21:05, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
Hello! When it says "To successfully create a new article, you'll need to use many of the skills you can learn through completing some easier tasks. To learn more about how to create a new article, click here," is there a way to make it so I can select that option? Thank you! Helloheart ( talk) 03:01, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
Did the Growth Team set the mentorship feature up to take into account student editors who are participating courses supported by Wikipedia:Wiki Ed? If not, then the Growth Team might want to get togther with Wiki Ed to make sure there's no issues between the two. Most Wiki Ed courses are assigned one or two Wiki Ed staff members and these users are essentially mentors when it comes to Wikipedia stuff. Moreover, students might end up getting confused or even stressed if they've got more than one "mentor" giving them advice. The worst case scenario would be conflicting advice in which the student doesn't know who they should be listening to and ends up making a mistake as a result. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 07:35, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
I'd like to request that we add a link to the Mentees' talk pages after each username in the Dashboard, and enable whatever script it is that permits a mouseover with Navigation Popups to display a preview of both it and the mentee's Userpage. That way one can quickly check if a mentee has already said anything about themselves on their userpage, or if they've been welcomed, warned or otherwise communicated with on their talkpage without having to leave the Dashboard. It'd be quick and wouldn't take up much space, either.
I can't remember whether I mentioned this before - or just thought it and never did anything about it. But it never hurts to mention good ideas twice. LOL! Nick Moyes ( talk) 19:36, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
Is there a general information page specifically developed with mentees in mind that explains what this feature is and how it works? Are mentees being given a link to this page if there is? I recently got a question from a mentee about this feature and things that it seems should be explained to mentees from the start. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 20:39, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
I'd like to remind you that the Growth team publishes a newsletter. As this newsletter shares the most recent updates with the communities, I think it would be a reasonable move to have it distributed on this page. What do you think?
You can also subscribe to it. Trizek (WMF) ( talk) 13:44, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
This is sort of related to Wikipedia talk:Growth Team features/Archive 3#Which Templates and Help pages might needing updating after full rollout? discussed above, but slightly different which is why I'm starting a new thread. In my opinion, it seems a bit pointless to assign mentees to mentors if the mentees don't [know] this is being done. I don't know whether every newly created account is being randomly assigned to a mentor or only those that request it (e.g. some box that can be checked like "Would you like to be assigned to a mentor?)" when people create an acount, but mentoring so far (at least in my opinion) seems to be a different version of WP:PC.
Maybe the feature should be option for only those who want it, and maybe there's should be a special "welcome" template that's automatically added to the user talk pages of those who do opt in. The template could include links to helpful pages for new editors like other welcome templates do, but it could also include a link to the assigned mentor's page with an open invitation to contact that mentor if help is needed. I've had a number of acocunts appear so far in my mentor dashboard, but most of them make only one or two edits. Some the editors are also problematic and have ended up being reverted by others or even to page creation being speedily deleted; some have even already been blocked.
I think the whole mentor/mentee relationship can only work as intended when mentees actually want help and know where to ask for it. Those that are just looking to cause mischief aren't going to want guidance, but those who might not know any better should know this option exists and is available to them. I've noticed that some non-English Wikipedia projects automatically add a welcome template to new account user pages as soon as the account accesses the site (at least that's been my own experience), but English Wikipedia seems to wait until some edit has been made (and often this is a bad edit). Maybe this is something that the Growth Team should consider. Although a mentor appearing suddenly out of the blue posting "Hi, I've been assigned as your mentor. If you've any questions feel free to ask." sounds like a really great thing, some new editors may be put off by receiving unsolicited advice or feel like their being monitored by their mentor, particularly if the mentor ends up telling them (even very politely) that they did something wrong. Things currently don't seem very different from the way they've always been done when it comes to new editors, and there seems to be no advantage to being assigned a mentor. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 02:09, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
Just going to add that I've been asked a question for the first time by one of my assigned mentees. Unfortunately, this editor made two edits: one on my user talk page and one to an article that I ended up reverting. The question was fine, but edit they made needed to be reverted even though it was made in good faith. I added a welcome template to their user talk page, but the "bad" edit might have been possibly not made if some sort of welcome template had been added right after the account had been created. Too often the first edit made by someone well-meaning but not familiar with some Wikipedia policy or guideline ends up getting reverted by either a bot or someone using a tool/script to patrol articles. Often the edit summary the reverter leaves mentions something about vandalism (even when it's not) or disruption which leads to the first post left on the user's talk page being a WP:UW. If, for example, editors had the option of becoming a mentee when they create an account, perhaps this could be indicated in some way and responses could then take that into consideration. In addition, if they provided with information about things like the Teahouse or the Wikipedia Adventure as well as some basic information about Wikipedia editing, then perhaps there would be a way to help them avoid making their first experience at editing an unpleasant one. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 12:08, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
{{#mentor}}
magicword to sign it). This way, newcomers have a consistent experience: they are welcomed by the same person at all places. As the welcome message is only sent to users who made at least one edit, it would indeed be a nice way to inform them about their mentor. It is up to your community to change this. :)special:Homepage
as a link is safe.This thread (now archived here) might be of interest to those involved with the Growth Team. I've noticed a couple editors who are wanting to get more involved but are not finding much they can help with in their suggested edits (when I had it active some months back I was having similar issues). Of course, it's not going to be perfect for every user, but it sounds like the grammar and spelling fixes are not being helpful for new users, and I encountered a few issues with editors overlinking an article tagged as underlinked a while back. I don't know if there is currently something in place to suggest tasks that are more likely to be newcomer-friendly? Maybe a feature for editors to skip or remove a suggestion (or indicate no interest) would be helpful to weed out some of the more difficult edits as well. Perfect4th ( talk) 14:30, 23 August 2022 (UTC) archived link added 14:48, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
providing newcomers with the information that tags are community-added, and sometimes they can be wrong, would be useful.
we see this as a task that likely requires a fair amount of knowledge about Wikipedia policies and norms, I agree with you. I don't think suggesting that editors try the Talk page of the article is necessarily helpful, since responses are unlikely to come quickly. I like the idea of Structured Tasks a lot and think that is much more helpful than pointing people at maintenance tags that may have been sitting around since 2010. -- asilvering ( talk) 02:27, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
templates to find articles that need copy editing, such as spelling, grammar, and punctuation improvements- currently only one of the listed templates fits that description ( Template:Inappropriate person). If the Growth Configuration actually only had templates that fit the stated description, I think they would all be likely to be "easy" edits and that problem would evaporate. Tense would be fine there. All the others (tone, advert, etc) could go to a "harder" newcomer edit level, but there isn't one currently that they'd fit into. A new one, maybe called "text cleanup", could hold those?
[[
Category:Musicians]]
to an article already categorized under [[
Category:Irish musicians]]
(and there are a lot of examples a lot more complex than that). A better categorization system would instead use Wikidata, where it would ideally be simpler to just tag an item as "Nationality:Irish, Occupation:Musician" without having to worry about diffusion. We'll ultimately get to that point, so I think it might make most sense to focus on having newcomers improve Wikidata items that have Wikipedia articles but lack basic information. {{u|
Sdkb}}
talk
17:56, 2 September 2022 (UTC)Dear Growth Team, this is to inform you that at least some of newcomers need a lot more attention than they are currently getting. Maybe something like mandatory mentorship or supervision for newbies whose edits are found to damage content, with the mentor/supervisor duties not limited to merely answering questions, but including "watching" edits of a mentee so as to revert bad ones immediately and provide some guidance, and by doing so prevent massive content damage and teach newbies desired and effective editing of Wikipedia in a shorter time span than in mentorless mode.
This note is a follow-up to the issue I raised yesterday, feel free to take a look to get the context: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia%3ATeahouse#Strange_activity_by_user_VickyBenz 188.66.34.204 ( talk) 17:15, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
ARoseWolf, the thing is, it's a problem that needs a solution. Shrugging it off with "Policing mentees edits is not something the mentorship program was really designed for" or something similar is not the best thing to do. Especially for a member of Growth Team. Remember, we're here to improve Wikipedia, and the problem won't go away by itself. Adjusting existing mentorship guidelines and techniques is certainly one of the ways to deal with it. There are also other ways, e.g. writing an edit analyzer which would report suspicious edits so an admin can take a closer look and cut it short in time, preventing further damage.
I'm currently thinking of submitting formal proposals at Village Pump to address this issue, but since I didn't do it before, some guidance from more experienced people would be nice. Is it sufficient to describe the problem, provide relevant links, and suggest that supervision of an editor with problematic activity looks like a solution which will work (and something as short for edit analyzer)? Or should it be more elaborate? Perhaps we can work on a draft all together prior to submitting it? 188.66.34.165 ( talk) 04:24, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
edit analyzer, are you thinking of something similar to an edit filter? Happy editing, Perfect4th ( talk) 05:14, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
Perfect4th, I don't quite understand what you mean by disconnect. If you are implying the damage could be caught by edit filters (yes, they look like exactly what I had in mind and thought didn't exist yet), RCP, CVU, CVN, SVT, ... you are right, it could – but the fact is, it wasn't. It stopped when I spotted one edit by chance and asked the user to stop damaging WP after checking his/her history. What it means in my opinion is that we should seek ways to fix it without pointing fingers at others, and it surely concerns Growth Team as well.
If anything, there's an obvious and clear disconnect between VickyBenz and his/her mentor, who is still nowhere to be seen. ARoseWolf mentioned that currently all new accounts are assigned a mentor. Can we please know who is VickyBenz's? Is it Rasnaboy who posted welcome screen one or two days after the issue was raised at Teahouse and cleanup was nearly complete by people who clearly have better things to do? Or was even welcome msg posted by a responsible passer-by rather than assigned mentor?
That being said, the VickyBenz case with damage overseen by everyone and non-existent mentor-mentee communication shows that
a) there's essentially zero benefit from mentorship the way it's currently organized; questions are better asked at Teahouse or Help Desk anyway, as there's more chance to get a quick reply and
b) there are no effective measures in place for quick detection and prevention of content damage (intentional or not – doesn't matter). And Growth Team with its own responsibilities is clearly involved as well. A better thought out and more responsible mentorship is *alone* capable of preventing such incidents. To be clear: by "mentorship" I mean not specific set of current rules, techniques and guidelines, but guidance in general.
I'd also like to address the statement "Asking them to "watch" their mentees edits and possibly revert damage, while a suggestion in good faith and well meaning, is a bit much. I tried that just to see if it was possible and its not, not if you want to still edit yourself." While I fully understand the reasoning, mentorship limited to answering questions is essentially useless, I'm absolutely convinced. Besides, I'm convinced everyone should better concentrate on what one both enjoys and is good at; good editors should not be distracted with mentoring, good mentors should not be distracted with editing. These tasks have rather different essential skill sets and most fitting personality types; I think there are very few people who are really good at both. And for a mentor who is not distracted with editing, watching mentees' edits is not a distraction, but part of the task.
The last but not the least, I strongly suggest that you folks should never let out of mind people who, instead of doing productive work, clean up mess left by users like VickyBenz, which could be cut short by watching mentors or admins (I did my part, a very small bit, others did much more). It takes *much less* effort to watch edits of problematic users and revert them immediately, avoiding build-up of mess, than to clean up afterwards. It's *total* effort spent by community which is the goal worth pursuing, not effort of Growth Team alone, or any other individual team or task force, for that matter. And this is another strong reason why I'm fully convinced some adjustments are necessary and would like to submit relevant proposals – with contribution from you or without.
Anyway, can we please know who is the person with overall responsibility for decisions of Growth Team and the general direction the team is taking? One of WMF employees who regularly post here according to history? I think it's best for this person to join this thread and at least state whether, in his or her opinion, any adjustments are needed or everything is fine and is best left as is. Strong leadership at all levels with clear vision for what is needed to make things better is a precondition for success after all, and Wikipedia is no exception, despite the way it's fundamentally organized and operated. 188.66.34.165 ( talk) 13:38, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
a) there's essentially zero benefit from mentorship the way it's currently organized; questions are better asked at Teahouse or Help Desk anyway, as there's more chance to get a quick reply-- I disagree. They serve different purposes, don't really overlap, and offer meaningfully different ways to onboard new editors into interaction with other more experienced editors. What you're asking for is a full on tutoring for all new users, which is fundamentally impossible given the numbers we're working with.
good editors should not be distracted with mentoring, good mentors should not be distracted with editing ... I think there are very few people who are really good at both-- I think there are very few people who are here at all, doing either, so breaking it up more only hurts us all. Alyo ( chat· edits) 15:01, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
First off, thank you Kirsten and Benoit for joining. Please don't consider my lack of response to you after asking to do so as a sign of disrespect, I've been simply too busy of late to take time for a thoughtful post. Current 150-ish mentee/mentor ratio mentioned by someone is high enough that close supervision of newcomers is perceived as unrealistic by some people, but clearly, there's a huge difference between two poles, whether most of the 86 volunteers consider mentoring as something of a side and not very interesting job on one hand, or something most of them want to dedicate themselves to on the other. Quite frankly, I don't see what the problem is in the latter case, except if most newcomers are very high-volume producers of problematic edits, all of which need revertion or correction. How representative is VickyBenz case? I don't believe that share of newcomers with activity pattern of this user is close to 100%; is there a way to get some important stats like percentage of newbies' reverted edits, their activity statistics etc., so we talk hard numbers?
Second, I'm a firm believer that mentorship is one of the most important – and underappreciated – avenues to making Wikipedia better. After reading replies I got a feeling that some people have a very narrow and formal view of it: signing up to the program and complying with whatever formal requirements the program contains. That is certainly one way to see the world, but in my opinion, being a mentor is more of a state of mind and personality type thing. You simply don't become a mentor by signing up; you either feel it's important and do what you can on a regular daily basis, or not. I personally never signed up for any mentorship program, and yet I do some mentoring even in my edit descriptions when I think it can help others learn.
I'd like to specifically address a comment by Bilorv:
"Given that we have tens of thousands of irredeemably awful articles in mainspace and many more that are okay but have substantial issues, I don't think our main concern should be small, well-intentioned edits by newcomers that make something slightly worse. ... [agree with the omitted part] Instead, our main priority is getting more experienced volunteers, which means getting out word that we're massively short on volunteers (to get newcomers), and welcoming and helping the people who do start editing (so newcomers become experienced). 188.66...'s hostile talk page messages are exactly what not to do, as they will scare off good faith contributors. "
Good-faith contributors who damage content need an explanation as to what they do, it's vandals who don't. Apart from this note, while perfectly logical on the surface, I think it's a great example of a failure to see the big picture: the dominance of low-quality content is *direct* consequence of neglecting the significance of properly educating newcomers for years, because for high-quality content WP:CIR. And close contact of newcomers with experienced editor(s) in the early stages of getting around Wikipedia is crucial for personal growth of newcomers as editors and gaining essential skills. I think there's huge difference in what kind of editor a newcomer grows into depending on what company of fellow editors and, therefore, editing practices he or she lands in during the starting period, or whether a newbie edits in full solitude for months. It doesn't even matter *who* passes on proper editing practice: a dedicated mentor or more experienced editor(s), what really matters is what kind of editing culture a newbie acquires upon joining, as it's this culture which he or she will propagate in the future.
If significance of properly "schooling" newcomers keeps being neglected, Wikipedia is simply doomed to remain as it is – full of harmful activity, undesired and ineffective editing and, as a result, poor-quality content for the most part. I think effective corrective measures are long overdue, and Bilorv's mindset and advice is a perfect recipe to hold Wikipedia back forever. Quantity doesn't beat quality, not in this particular case, Bilorv. I'd hazard a guess that the reason why Wikipedia was off to a fairly good start, is the big gap in overall competence and expertise between many people who edit these years and the Nupedia folks who made the kernel of the *very small* yet productive community in the early days along with first-wave newcomers, who were mostly computer and web geeks. Situation today is totally different.
One more piece of advice I could give you, Growth Team, is to take a broader view of the problem: please don't limit your work to how to organize mentorship best. A couple of things, which seem to be very easy to implement in a short time, occur to me as steps in the right direction. One is automatic posting of welcome screen upon registration, so every newcomer with account is given all important links and root pages for self-education. Why is it not done 20+ years since Wikipedia was started (according to VickyBenz's talk page history)? Was it discussed and rejected by community for some reason? I'd really like to know the reason why.
The other thing is, I have vague recollections that a game was written to teach Wikipedia in an entertaining manner; I never played it, it just sprang from memory as I'm typing this up. I think it was an excellent idea and newbies should be automatically given a link to it along with welcome screen (or in it). I'm a big believer in edutainment in general, and I think a well-written game would be a great asset in helping newbies learn. It could also be an ever-evolving project like many open-source games, so people could get back to it in a few months to learn something new in a fun way.
And one more: why not start paying people who are capable of providing high-quality mentorship and would be willing to concentrate on this task alone? It was not an option in the early days due to lack of funds, but with donations currently at $153 million (and total income at $163 million) per annum and growing, I think this is one of the best uses of donors' money (a very small share, obviously).
That's my two cents for now folks, please give it a thought, comment if you wish, and please post what other changes, in your opinion, can help newcomers learn desired and effective editing. Let's have a poll. 188.66.33.41 ( talk) 17:21, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 |
Hi Growth team. As reported over on WP:VPR, Asilvering has the homepage enabled; they have a mentor relationship that appears to be with User:Elli - however on their homepage they don't get the "Your Mentor" section at all (but do get the rest of the page). What should be checked next? — xaosflux Talk 18:51, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
growthsetmenteestatus
api call, but lets not try that yet. —
xaosflux
Talk
18:34, 28 February 2022 (UTC)#mentor
magic word works and can be reliably used in (welcome) templates and similar (
the idea of integrating Growth mentorship is covered by MediaWiki.org). Currently, apart from the action=growthsetmenteestatus
API call @
Xaosflux discovered, it's not possible to enable mentorship after registration. Once
phab:T287915 is done, users will be able to opt out from mentorship and opt back in. Completing that task would make it easy to let mentorship start as opt out (instead of disabled) via
phab:T301456, letting anyone to turn it on if so desired.Hello! So I just thought of an issue with this. Some mentor's will have their talk pages temporarily semi-protected due to persistent vandalism. The issue comes with them being a mentor. Because their user talk page is protected, new users won't be able to ask their mentors any questions because they probably won't be autoconfirmed yet. Would it be possible for questions that come from the mentorship module (aka New User Homepage) to bypass any protection on the talk page? ― Blaze Wolf TalkBlaze Wolf#6545 17:57, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
Hi everyone -- today, we started giving the Growth features to 100% of new accounts, with 10% receiving mentorship (based on the RfC which closed last week). So we should expect to see 4 times as many suggested edits and twice as many mentor questions as we had been seeing. We'll be keeping our eyes on the numbers. Thank you all for helping us get to this important point: the Growth features are now the default newcomer experience on English Wikipedia!
In terms of next steps, our team is going to be thinking about whether/how we should make the features available to all the other accounts that were created in the past. Perhaps there are "newish" users who would find value in the Growth features, and perhaps even experienced users would like to do suggested edits, see their impact, or at least be able to browse the Growth features just to see them. We're thinking about these "all the other accounts" in two groups:
This next step of turning the Growth features on for "all other accounts" would not be happening imminently, and we would try it on other Wikipedias first. But if anyone here has thoughts on whether or how to do this, I would like to hear! MMiller (WMF) ( talk) 23:43, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
growthexperiments-homepage-mentorship-enabled
to allow them to make use of their mentor, this is what I was referring to. I don't think we should force on those first 2 options for "older accounts" at all. I don't think we should enable *-pt-link for the existing users, especially not if they have already initiated their userpage. As far as force enabling *-homepage-enable: should be safe for anyone that isn't autoconfirmed, would need feedback from others if it should be higher. —
xaosflux
Talk
01:22, 8 March 2022 (UTC)Since we dont have any colors or a logo I kept the userbox pretty simple. Please let me know here if you have any suggestions I should make to the userbox to make it better. The template code is this {{Growth Team features mentor}}
, and here is what it looks like. {{Growth Team features mentor}} [nowikied by
CX Zoom]
― Kaleeb18 TalkCaleb 22:30, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
{{Growth Team features mentor}}
to {{User Growth Team features mentor}}
per
Wikipedia:WikiProject Userboxes § Guide to moving userboxes &
Wikipedia:Userboxes § Namespace. The appearance of the template remains the same, see
![]() | This user is a Mentor for new editors at the Wikipedia Growth Team. |
--- CX Zoom(he/him) ( let's talk| contribs) 13:14, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
{{
User mentor}}
. This adds
Category:Wikipedians who mentor new users to your userpage. Details
here.This user is a Mentor to new editors see: Homepage features |
Cheers, Nick Moyes ( talk) 22:51, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
I'd like to raise the issue of finding and deploying a suitable logo to identify the mentorship element of Growth Team Features. You might see this as trivial, but I'm currently reworking the Adopt-a-user page, and needed to refer to the new mentorship scheme with an identifiable image that sums up what it does.
I've found four possibilities so far, and have deployed no. 1) at WP:AAU for now, as it seems the strongest and simplest. Despite its title, the file is not actually used at WP:RETENTION. No 2) seems too obscure and high-brow; 3) would need to be redone in English, and 4) seems pretty good, but doesn't quite encapsulate the 1-2-1 element of support (though it could be seen as a random selection of new users, all needing a mentor!).
Further additions: 5) Sums up the Q&A nature of mentorship; 6) is the logo for the Growth Team features, but does not sum up the element of the mentor/mentee relationship.
I feel happy to use 1) to refer to mentorship, but wanted to seek input and ideas from other editors.
Nick Moyes (
talk)
01:16, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
One query I do have, however: Nick Moyes, is this due to an interest of stemming off the mentorship program into a separate, official feature, or simply a way to identify it? As in, all of these features (the Homepage, Help Panel, Mentorship) all build up this page we're currently on. Are you looking for a scheme so you can split off Mentorship into its own page, and this current page will simply speak generally of it? If so, I would support the concept; a place to organize Mentorship information for both mentors and mentees alike, like the adoption program, would be beneficial in my opinion. I feel the mentor list is cluttered with the instructions and FAQ, anyways. Panini! • 🥪 23:14, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
I cannot find the home now. I feel this is the place to ask. My apologies as I am trying to learn how to interpret into technological language as I go. I think in a pattern that is best described as “musicophilia,” - thinking in old and new verse/music and letting that guide me. I just am looking for some nice tea if that’s available. Thank you. Tl:dr is there a mentor available? Muchmi ( talk) 20:45, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
Again apologies if I’m replying in wrong area. Is there a coding option available for new users to go to a “false-secondary weblink” that doesn’t actually change anything? It could trigger the “tea-house” response when someone tries to edit, without actually editing anything. Then the creator can choose to approve or deny the edits based on intended design. Like a Matrix loop that holds a door open without worrying so much about constant reviewing. I assume the goal is to move forward as a whole in this Java language, tho I think in Janus.
TL:DR instead of accidental edits, the link for new users is false and triggers a point of review to the page creators to decide to “approve or deny” the edit. I would hope that would keep curiosity engaged with less strain in the creators. Muchmi ( talk) 21:05, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
Hello! When it says "To successfully create a new article, you'll need to use many of the skills you can learn through completing some easier tasks. To learn more about how to create a new article, click here," is there a way to make it so I can select that option? Thank you! Helloheart ( talk) 03:01, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
Did the Growth Team set the mentorship feature up to take into account student editors who are participating courses supported by Wikipedia:Wiki Ed? If not, then the Growth Team might want to get togther with Wiki Ed to make sure there's no issues between the two. Most Wiki Ed courses are assigned one or two Wiki Ed staff members and these users are essentially mentors when it comes to Wikipedia stuff. Moreover, students might end up getting confused or even stressed if they've got more than one "mentor" giving them advice. The worst case scenario would be conflicting advice in which the student doesn't know who they should be listening to and ends up making a mistake as a result. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 07:35, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
I'd like to request that we add a link to the Mentees' talk pages after each username in the Dashboard, and enable whatever script it is that permits a mouseover with Navigation Popups to display a preview of both it and the mentee's Userpage. That way one can quickly check if a mentee has already said anything about themselves on their userpage, or if they've been welcomed, warned or otherwise communicated with on their talkpage without having to leave the Dashboard. It'd be quick and wouldn't take up much space, either.
I can't remember whether I mentioned this before - or just thought it and never did anything about it. But it never hurts to mention good ideas twice. LOL! Nick Moyes ( talk) 19:36, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
Is there a general information page specifically developed with mentees in mind that explains what this feature is and how it works? Are mentees being given a link to this page if there is? I recently got a question from a mentee about this feature and things that it seems should be explained to mentees from the start. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 20:39, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
I'd like to remind you that the Growth team publishes a newsletter. As this newsletter shares the most recent updates with the communities, I think it would be a reasonable move to have it distributed on this page. What do you think?
You can also subscribe to it. Trizek (WMF) ( talk) 13:44, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
This is sort of related to Wikipedia talk:Growth Team features/Archive 3#Which Templates and Help pages might needing updating after full rollout? discussed above, but slightly different which is why I'm starting a new thread. In my opinion, it seems a bit pointless to assign mentees to mentors if the mentees don't [know] this is being done. I don't know whether every newly created account is being randomly assigned to a mentor or only those that request it (e.g. some box that can be checked like "Would you like to be assigned to a mentor?)" when people create an acount, but mentoring so far (at least in my opinion) seems to be a different version of WP:PC.
Maybe the feature should be option for only those who want it, and maybe there's should be a special "welcome" template that's automatically added to the user talk pages of those who do opt in. The template could include links to helpful pages for new editors like other welcome templates do, but it could also include a link to the assigned mentor's page with an open invitation to contact that mentor if help is needed. I've had a number of acocunts appear so far in my mentor dashboard, but most of them make only one or two edits. Some the editors are also problematic and have ended up being reverted by others or even to page creation being speedily deleted; some have even already been blocked.
I think the whole mentor/mentee relationship can only work as intended when mentees actually want help and know where to ask for it. Those that are just looking to cause mischief aren't going to want guidance, but those who might not know any better should know this option exists and is available to them. I've noticed that some non-English Wikipedia projects automatically add a welcome template to new account user pages as soon as the account accesses the site (at least that's been my own experience), but English Wikipedia seems to wait until some edit has been made (and often this is a bad edit). Maybe this is something that the Growth Team should consider. Although a mentor appearing suddenly out of the blue posting "Hi, I've been assigned as your mentor. If you've any questions feel free to ask." sounds like a really great thing, some new editors may be put off by receiving unsolicited advice or feel like their being monitored by their mentor, particularly if the mentor ends up telling them (even very politely) that they did something wrong. Things currently don't seem very different from the way they've always been done when it comes to new editors, and there seems to be no advantage to being assigned a mentor. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 02:09, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
Just going to add that I've been asked a question for the first time by one of my assigned mentees. Unfortunately, this editor made two edits: one on my user talk page and one to an article that I ended up reverting. The question was fine, but edit they made needed to be reverted even though it was made in good faith. I added a welcome template to their user talk page, but the "bad" edit might have been possibly not made if some sort of welcome template had been added right after the account had been created. Too often the first edit made by someone well-meaning but not familiar with some Wikipedia policy or guideline ends up getting reverted by either a bot or someone using a tool/script to patrol articles. Often the edit summary the reverter leaves mentions something about vandalism (even when it's not) or disruption which leads to the first post left on the user's talk page being a WP:UW. If, for example, editors had the option of becoming a mentee when they create an account, perhaps this could be indicated in some way and responses could then take that into consideration. In addition, if they provided with information about things like the Teahouse or the Wikipedia Adventure as well as some basic information about Wikipedia editing, then perhaps there would be a way to help them avoid making their first experience at editing an unpleasant one. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 12:08, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
{{#mentor}}
magicword to sign it). This way, newcomers have a consistent experience: they are welcomed by the same person at all places. As the welcome message is only sent to users who made at least one edit, it would indeed be a nice way to inform them about their mentor. It is up to your community to change this. :)special:Homepage
as a link is safe.This thread (now archived here) might be of interest to those involved with the Growth Team. I've noticed a couple editors who are wanting to get more involved but are not finding much they can help with in their suggested edits (when I had it active some months back I was having similar issues). Of course, it's not going to be perfect for every user, but it sounds like the grammar and spelling fixes are not being helpful for new users, and I encountered a few issues with editors overlinking an article tagged as underlinked a while back. I don't know if there is currently something in place to suggest tasks that are more likely to be newcomer-friendly? Maybe a feature for editors to skip or remove a suggestion (or indicate no interest) would be helpful to weed out some of the more difficult edits as well. Perfect4th ( talk) 14:30, 23 August 2022 (UTC) archived link added 14:48, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
providing newcomers with the information that tags are community-added, and sometimes they can be wrong, would be useful.
we see this as a task that likely requires a fair amount of knowledge about Wikipedia policies and norms, I agree with you. I don't think suggesting that editors try the Talk page of the article is necessarily helpful, since responses are unlikely to come quickly. I like the idea of Structured Tasks a lot and think that is much more helpful than pointing people at maintenance tags that may have been sitting around since 2010. -- asilvering ( talk) 02:27, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
templates to find articles that need copy editing, such as spelling, grammar, and punctuation improvements- currently only one of the listed templates fits that description ( Template:Inappropriate person). If the Growth Configuration actually only had templates that fit the stated description, I think they would all be likely to be "easy" edits and that problem would evaporate. Tense would be fine there. All the others (tone, advert, etc) could go to a "harder" newcomer edit level, but there isn't one currently that they'd fit into. A new one, maybe called "text cleanup", could hold those?
[[
Category:Musicians]]
to an article already categorized under [[
Category:Irish musicians]]
(and there are a lot of examples a lot more complex than that). A better categorization system would instead use Wikidata, where it would ideally be simpler to just tag an item as "Nationality:Irish, Occupation:Musician" without having to worry about diffusion. We'll ultimately get to that point, so I think it might make most sense to focus on having newcomers improve Wikidata items that have Wikipedia articles but lack basic information. {{u|
Sdkb}}
talk
17:56, 2 September 2022 (UTC)Dear Growth Team, this is to inform you that at least some of newcomers need a lot more attention than they are currently getting. Maybe something like mandatory mentorship or supervision for newbies whose edits are found to damage content, with the mentor/supervisor duties not limited to merely answering questions, but including "watching" edits of a mentee so as to revert bad ones immediately and provide some guidance, and by doing so prevent massive content damage and teach newbies desired and effective editing of Wikipedia in a shorter time span than in mentorless mode.
This note is a follow-up to the issue I raised yesterday, feel free to take a look to get the context: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia%3ATeahouse#Strange_activity_by_user_VickyBenz 188.66.34.204 ( talk) 17:15, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
ARoseWolf, the thing is, it's a problem that needs a solution. Shrugging it off with "Policing mentees edits is not something the mentorship program was really designed for" or something similar is not the best thing to do. Especially for a member of Growth Team. Remember, we're here to improve Wikipedia, and the problem won't go away by itself. Adjusting existing mentorship guidelines and techniques is certainly one of the ways to deal with it. There are also other ways, e.g. writing an edit analyzer which would report suspicious edits so an admin can take a closer look and cut it short in time, preventing further damage.
I'm currently thinking of submitting formal proposals at Village Pump to address this issue, but since I didn't do it before, some guidance from more experienced people would be nice. Is it sufficient to describe the problem, provide relevant links, and suggest that supervision of an editor with problematic activity looks like a solution which will work (and something as short for edit analyzer)? Or should it be more elaborate? Perhaps we can work on a draft all together prior to submitting it? 188.66.34.165 ( talk) 04:24, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
edit analyzer, are you thinking of something similar to an edit filter? Happy editing, Perfect4th ( talk) 05:14, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
Perfect4th, I don't quite understand what you mean by disconnect. If you are implying the damage could be caught by edit filters (yes, they look like exactly what I had in mind and thought didn't exist yet), RCP, CVU, CVN, SVT, ... you are right, it could – but the fact is, it wasn't. It stopped when I spotted one edit by chance and asked the user to stop damaging WP after checking his/her history. What it means in my opinion is that we should seek ways to fix it without pointing fingers at others, and it surely concerns Growth Team as well.
If anything, there's an obvious and clear disconnect between VickyBenz and his/her mentor, who is still nowhere to be seen. ARoseWolf mentioned that currently all new accounts are assigned a mentor. Can we please know who is VickyBenz's? Is it Rasnaboy who posted welcome screen one or two days after the issue was raised at Teahouse and cleanup was nearly complete by people who clearly have better things to do? Or was even welcome msg posted by a responsible passer-by rather than assigned mentor?
That being said, the VickyBenz case with damage overseen by everyone and non-existent mentor-mentee communication shows that
a) there's essentially zero benefit from mentorship the way it's currently organized; questions are better asked at Teahouse or Help Desk anyway, as there's more chance to get a quick reply and
b) there are no effective measures in place for quick detection and prevention of content damage (intentional or not – doesn't matter). And Growth Team with its own responsibilities is clearly involved as well. A better thought out and more responsible mentorship is *alone* capable of preventing such incidents. To be clear: by "mentorship" I mean not specific set of current rules, techniques and guidelines, but guidance in general.
I'd also like to address the statement "Asking them to "watch" their mentees edits and possibly revert damage, while a suggestion in good faith and well meaning, is a bit much. I tried that just to see if it was possible and its not, not if you want to still edit yourself." While I fully understand the reasoning, mentorship limited to answering questions is essentially useless, I'm absolutely convinced. Besides, I'm convinced everyone should better concentrate on what one both enjoys and is good at; good editors should not be distracted with mentoring, good mentors should not be distracted with editing. These tasks have rather different essential skill sets and most fitting personality types; I think there are very few people who are really good at both. And for a mentor who is not distracted with editing, watching mentees' edits is not a distraction, but part of the task.
The last but not the least, I strongly suggest that you folks should never let out of mind people who, instead of doing productive work, clean up mess left by users like VickyBenz, which could be cut short by watching mentors or admins (I did my part, a very small bit, others did much more). It takes *much less* effort to watch edits of problematic users and revert them immediately, avoiding build-up of mess, than to clean up afterwards. It's *total* effort spent by community which is the goal worth pursuing, not effort of Growth Team alone, or any other individual team or task force, for that matter. And this is another strong reason why I'm fully convinced some adjustments are necessary and would like to submit relevant proposals – with contribution from you or without.
Anyway, can we please know who is the person with overall responsibility for decisions of Growth Team and the general direction the team is taking? One of WMF employees who regularly post here according to history? I think it's best for this person to join this thread and at least state whether, in his or her opinion, any adjustments are needed or everything is fine and is best left as is. Strong leadership at all levels with clear vision for what is needed to make things better is a precondition for success after all, and Wikipedia is no exception, despite the way it's fundamentally organized and operated. 188.66.34.165 ( talk) 13:38, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
a) there's essentially zero benefit from mentorship the way it's currently organized; questions are better asked at Teahouse or Help Desk anyway, as there's more chance to get a quick reply-- I disagree. They serve different purposes, don't really overlap, and offer meaningfully different ways to onboard new editors into interaction with other more experienced editors. What you're asking for is a full on tutoring for all new users, which is fundamentally impossible given the numbers we're working with.
good editors should not be distracted with mentoring, good mentors should not be distracted with editing ... I think there are very few people who are really good at both-- I think there are very few people who are here at all, doing either, so breaking it up more only hurts us all. Alyo ( chat· edits) 15:01, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
First off, thank you Kirsten and Benoit for joining. Please don't consider my lack of response to you after asking to do so as a sign of disrespect, I've been simply too busy of late to take time for a thoughtful post. Current 150-ish mentee/mentor ratio mentioned by someone is high enough that close supervision of newcomers is perceived as unrealistic by some people, but clearly, there's a huge difference between two poles, whether most of the 86 volunteers consider mentoring as something of a side and not very interesting job on one hand, or something most of them want to dedicate themselves to on the other. Quite frankly, I don't see what the problem is in the latter case, except if most newcomers are very high-volume producers of problematic edits, all of which need revertion or correction. How representative is VickyBenz case? I don't believe that share of newcomers with activity pattern of this user is close to 100%; is there a way to get some important stats like percentage of newbies' reverted edits, their activity statistics etc., so we talk hard numbers?
Second, I'm a firm believer that mentorship is one of the most important – and underappreciated – avenues to making Wikipedia better. After reading replies I got a feeling that some people have a very narrow and formal view of it: signing up to the program and complying with whatever formal requirements the program contains. That is certainly one way to see the world, but in my opinion, being a mentor is more of a state of mind and personality type thing. You simply don't become a mentor by signing up; you either feel it's important and do what you can on a regular daily basis, or not. I personally never signed up for any mentorship program, and yet I do some mentoring even in my edit descriptions when I think it can help others learn.
I'd like to specifically address a comment by Bilorv:
"Given that we have tens of thousands of irredeemably awful articles in mainspace and many more that are okay but have substantial issues, I don't think our main concern should be small, well-intentioned edits by newcomers that make something slightly worse. ... [agree with the omitted part] Instead, our main priority is getting more experienced volunteers, which means getting out word that we're massively short on volunteers (to get newcomers), and welcoming and helping the people who do start editing (so newcomers become experienced). 188.66...'s hostile talk page messages are exactly what not to do, as they will scare off good faith contributors. "
Good-faith contributors who damage content need an explanation as to what they do, it's vandals who don't. Apart from this note, while perfectly logical on the surface, I think it's a great example of a failure to see the big picture: the dominance of low-quality content is *direct* consequence of neglecting the significance of properly educating newcomers for years, because for high-quality content WP:CIR. And close contact of newcomers with experienced editor(s) in the early stages of getting around Wikipedia is crucial for personal growth of newcomers as editors and gaining essential skills. I think there's huge difference in what kind of editor a newcomer grows into depending on what company of fellow editors and, therefore, editing practices he or she lands in during the starting period, or whether a newbie edits in full solitude for months. It doesn't even matter *who* passes on proper editing practice: a dedicated mentor or more experienced editor(s), what really matters is what kind of editing culture a newbie acquires upon joining, as it's this culture which he or she will propagate in the future.
If significance of properly "schooling" newcomers keeps being neglected, Wikipedia is simply doomed to remain as it is – full of harmful activity, undesired and ineffective editing and, as a result, poor-quality content for the most part. I think effective corrective measures are long overdue, and Bilorv's mindset and advice is a perfect recipe to hold Wikipedia back forever. Quantity doesn't beat quality, not in this particular case, Bilorv. I'd hazard a guess that the reason why Wikipedia was off to a fairly good start, is the big gap in overall competence and expertise between many people who edit these years and the Nupedia folks who made the kernel of the *very small* yet productive community in the early days along with first-wave newcomers, who were mostly computer and web geeks. Situation today is totally different.
One more piece of advice I could give you, Growth Team, is to take a broader view of the problem: please don't limit your work to how to organize mentorship best. A couple of things, which seem to be very easy to implement in a short time, occur to me as steps in the right direction. One is automatic posting of welcome screen upon registration, so every newcomer with account is given all important links and root pages for self-education. Why is it not done 20+ years since Wikipedia was started (according to VickyBenz's talk page history)? Was it discussed and rejected by community for some reason? I'd really like to know the reason why.
The other thing is, I have vague recollections that a game was written to teach Wikipedia in an entertaining manner; I never played it, it just sprang from memory as I'm typing this up. I think it was an excellent idea and newbies should be automatically given a link to it along with welcome screen (or in it). I'm a big believer in edutainment in general, and I think a well-written game would be a great asset in helping newbies learn. It could also be an ever-evolving project like many open-source games, so people could get back to it in a few months to learn something new in a fun way.
And one more: why not start paying people who are capable of providing high-quality mentorship and would be willing to concentrate on this task alone? It was not an option in the early days due to lack of funds, but with donations currently at $153 million (and total income at $163 million) per annum and growing, I think this is one of the best uses of donors' money (a very small share, obviously).
That's my two cents for now folks, please give it a thought, comment if you wish, and please post what other changes, in your opinion, can help newcomers learn desired and effective editing. Let's have a poll. 188.66.33.41 ( talk) 17:21, 9 September 2022 (UTC)