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I propose that the requirement gets formalized as follows:
There are only two current topics that wouldn't meet this - The Simpsons (season 8) and The Simpsons (season 9), which are only one short. Tompw ( talk) ( review) 20:42, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
(indent reset). I wanna add, (being someone who's starting a 40 article FT), that the 1/5 one is better. I also think about 22% of the articles should be Featured instead of 20. In my case, that would be 9 Featured. I know 22 is a little bit random but it may help in a bad situation. Otherwise, if my idea doesn't work, I'm all for the 1/5 proposal. Mitch 32 contribs 15:58, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I have a question: Does the number of articles include the keystone article? Forex, in the Simpsons FTs, does the Season 8/9 article count towards the number of FAs needed for a FT? JKBrooks85 ( talk) 03:26, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Congratulations, everyone! I think we finally have a rule that makes sense.-- Pharos ( talk) 02:51, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
I think we should have a grace period stated before this comes up again. I propose three months for a demotion of an article, and six months for a grandfather topic with a change in the requirements. Zginder ( talk) ( Contrib) 22:21, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
I propose that criterion 3.c be changed to
I would change it myself, but I am not sure of the intent of the last sentence: I am not quite sure whether the "This" in "This can not be use" refers to each individual limited-subject-matter item, or to criterion 3.c itself (the former sounds right, but some consensus would be nice here anyway).
— an odd name 19:53, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I think that it might be time to make some of the recommended criteria mandatory for topics that are in a clear series or are nothing but list articles. For all-list topics, I think that it is reasonable to expect them to have similar headings and have a similar structure. Check out the lists in the hurricane topics, they all have tables in the same places and list the same information in the same places. I think that this is key in making the topics unified, giving FT a more concrete objective. Obviously this wouldn't apply to all-prose topics with articles like "history of". Looking over the existing list-topics, most of them already comply with this optional requirement, and given that it's easier to pass FL than FA, I think this little bit of extra work is reasonable to ask of them. -- Arctic Gnome ( talk • contribs) 18:28, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
In my view, the text was better beforehand. I propose that it be reinstated. Was 20 undesirable? Choose a different number then.
[1] TONY (talk) 12:31, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
In light of the discussion here, I would think it would be sensible to change the last recommendation to:
"To avoid wasting time, the topic should not have any Good article reassessments, Featured article reviews, Featured article removal candidates, or Featured list removal candidates when nominated for featured topic, and should only have Good article nominations, Featured article candidates and Featured list candidates if the result does not affect whether the topic meets the featured topic criteria. Please have all required processes done before nominating."
This is slightly more complicated but more logical and avoids future discussions like the one at Orange Box. Thoughts? - rst20xx ( talk) 01:12, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
The Star Wars topic needs to undergo a retention period, given that one of its articles was recently demoted from featured status. Also, another may be demoted soon. I was going to nominate it for removal, but thought it'd be better to post this message here. LuciferMorgan ( talk) 15:31, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
One thing that I've noticed is that there's no clear policy regarding including articles in topics which are about current/future events/TV series/etc (Henceforth I'll simply call these "future events" or else this'll get painful), where this last article cannot become a GA yet due to inherent instability.
Sometimes (for example, with the Degrassi and Lost series topics) the articles for future events are audited, and then included in the topic as such until the event is finished, at which point the topic has a retention period to get the article to GA. Other times, the article is not included during this period, and simply goes straight into the article as GA during the retention period (for example, the Devil May Cry topic tried to take this route, though this ultimately didn't happen as DMC4 didn't get to GA within the retention period).
I think the rules should be clarified regarding such articles. Here's what I propose should be the case:
Why do I think the extra articles should be included? Because they're part of the topic! Whether an event has happened yet or not, it's still part of the topic, and therefore should be included from the start.
Yes, this makes things slightly more complicated (especially point 2), but the new rules would lead to more complete featured topics as a result.
So which current featured topics would be immediately affected by point 1? The following:
I think that's it.
I realise it'd be annoying to have to put these topics into grace, but as I said this rule change would lead to more complete featured topics, and we could always make exceptions for these two existing topics and allow them to continue under the current system.
Thoughts? rst20xx ( talk) 17:56, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Items that cannot achieve a high rating (as stated in 3.a and 3.b) due to their limited subject matter have passed an individual audit for quality which included a completed peer review with all important problems fixed. Such items cannot be used to fulfill criterion 1.a.
Items that cannot achieve a high rating (as stated in 3.a and 3.b) due to either their limited subject matter or inherent instability have passed an individual audit for quality which included a completed peer review with all important problems fixed. Such items cannot be used to fulfill criterion 1.a.
This has happened several times, and one of them was with the newly classified dwarf planet. It should be written in the Featured Topic rules that you cannot do this, as it seems to keep happening. Judgesurreal777 ( talk) 17:41, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
I think I have all of them on my watchlist, but sometimes they still sneak through. I'm thinking about protecting the boxes, but then users won't be able to update the GA/FA icons when articles get promoted. For now I'll add an invisible tag at the top of all problem boxes asking users not to add new articles without a nomination. --
Arctic Gnome (
talk •
contribs)
21:55, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
I've started a talk on how we should handle overview topics at Wikipedia_talk:Featured_topics#Overview_topics, comments are apriciated. -- Arctic Gnome ( talk • contribs) 10:33, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
"Items that are ineligible for featured or good article status, due to either their limited subject matter or inherent instability, must have passed an individual quality audit that included a completed peer review, with all important problems fixed. Such items do not count towards criterion 1.a."
Since when does brevity prevent an article from earning GA or FA status? WP:FACR 4 only states that the article should not be too long, and 1b states that the article should be comprehensive. Francium (FA) is only 22kb, Tropical Storm Mindy (2003) (GA) is only 13kb, but they both passed because they are extremely comprehensive given how little there is to write about the subjects. So long as an article is comprehensive, its length should not prevent it from achieving GA/FA. Or, if there really isn't enough information to make an article worthwhile, it should simply be merged into one of the other articles in the topic.
Insufficient length should no longer be a factor in FT criterion 3c. -- Cryptic C62 · Talk 18:04, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
Or FLs, of course. During Wikipedia:Featured topic candidates/The Legend of Zelda titles, there were some opposes due to the low number of FAs in the topic, even though the topic met the 20% threshold. I'd like to consider raising this to 25% (from one in five to one in four). Looking through the existing FTs, the only two that do not already have at least 25% featured content are the two Simpsons seasons (feel free to double-check me, though), which do not meet the 20% requirement either, and are eligible for removal near the end of the month. In addition, all FTCs also have at least 25% featured content, so this seems like as good a time as any to raise the standard. Pagra shtak 18:56, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Article count | 20% FA | 25% FA |
---|---|---|
3 – 8 | 2 | 2 |
9 – 10 | 2 | 3 |
11 – 12 | 3 | 3 |
13 – 15 | 3 | 4 |
16 | 4 | 4 |
17 – 20 | 4 | 5 |
21 – 24 | 5 | 6 |
25 | 5 | 7 |
26 – 28 | 6 | 7 |
29 – 30 | 6 | 8 |
Why not make it at least a third, and give everyone 12 months to satisfy the condition? That could underpin an improvement campaign. Tony (talk) 02:50, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Topic No. of FA's
So you see, all but the two simpsons topics would have only one FA to raise to meet the much higher criteria. True, Simpsons Wikiproject would have their work cut out for them, but they would still have a whole year to do it in. I personally think it would be doable. Thoughts? Judgesurreal777 ( talk) 03:31, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
As one of the editors who has worked on the Simpsons FTs, I am going to say right now that I am not even going to bother with this catch up game. Here we are (potentially) a week (or so) from saving one of the FTs and suddenly the bar is going to be raised again. Who is to say that someone else isn't going to want to raise the bar to 40% or even 1/2? For anyone who has ever worked on an episode article (especially decade old ones), you would know how difficult it is to raise them to FA standards (especially now that the FA standards are higher than they were 6 months ago) and the prospect of having to get five more for season 8 and four more for season 9 is more than disheartening (and it pretty much kills our season 4 drive). So instead of these "we'll give you a year" games, why not just delist them now and save us all a lot of time? -- Scorpion 0422 20:43, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps at some point Featured topic will mean that all articles within the topic scope are of WP:FA/ WP:FL status. Cirt ( talk) 21:58, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I think the problem here is with the Featured Article process, not Featured Topics. If an article is truly as well-researched as is reasonably possible, why shouldn't it be able to get to FA? Yes, it may be shorter than some other article of comparable type, but featured content should represent content that is the best Wikipedia can offer, and if an article is as good as it can be, but short, then it should still be featured IMO. I hate the fact that there is this glass ceiling on the accreditation many articles can attain, as if an article is the best it can be, then it should be of the highest accreditation there is - rst20xx ( talk) 16:26, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Right, this has now gone to 25%, and under current plans the Simpsons topics will become good topics once good topics are implemented - rst20xx ( talk) 16:09, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
Degrassi: The Next Generation (season 7) got its featured list star today so I removed it from the retention list. Season 8 has been greenlit for production, but Degrassi: The Next Generation (season 8) is currently salted as there are not enough sources for an article yet, and 14 year old fans keep creating it. Matthewedwards ( talk • contribs • email) 19:08, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Firstly, let's make clear this proposal is only going to deal with criteria regarding the percentage of articles that need to be featured in a topic, i.e. 3.a) The rest of the criteria will be left untouched. OK, now let's examine the conversation above. There seems to be two camps here, and I think they both make strong arguments, so let me outline them.
Consensus amongst many editors is that featured topic criteria need to go up over time, as they think that 20% is simply too low. How can they be "featured" topics, the thought goes, when only one in five articles in the topic need be featured?!? And I kind of see their point.
Equally, consensus amongst many others is that they should not go up. There are two reasons for this. Firstly, for certain topics, it may be impossible to reach higher criteria; for example, WP:Simpsons are arguing above that most articles in their two topics simply aren't notable enough to get featured, and as much as it saddens me (I think all articles, if they are written as well as is reasonably possible, should be able to get featured, no matter how substantial they are... but I digress), I think this is true.
The second reason is that if the bar is set higher, then people might not even bother trying to get their topics featured in the first place, which would, ultimately, be detrimental to the quality of content in Wikipedia. Evidence for this, again, is that WP:Simpsons are now saying they might just give up. They probably wouldn't have even bothered trying in the first place, if the bar was at 33% from the start. Having said that, you could equally argue it the other way; with criteria as it stands, people often get their topics to about the 20% mark, get them featured, then leave them at that. By pushing the criteria up, people will get their topics that bit farther before leaving them be, and certainly I think that pushing the criteria up will cause the majority of topics that would no longer meet the criteria, to improve so that they continue to meet the criteria. And similarly for new topics. And I don't expect that this would happen otherwise. (If you follow me.)
So my proposal is that, while we could push the criteria up, instead we could make several levels of accreditation. This way, editors will have an incentive to keep working on existing topics, but topics such as the Simpsons series don't get cut out.
I think the best way to do this would be to have three levels: "good topics", "featured topics", and "fully featured topics". (Obviously the names are open to debate, but these names work for me.) Then the general name for a good/featured/fully featured topic could be a "unified topic", or "accredited topic". I see two natural ways to split the percentages: exponentially (25% for good, 50% for featured and 100% for fully featured), or lineraly (33%, 67%, 100%). That's open to debate. I'd lean the former, but I expect if we went for the former, people would later clammer for the latter, so I don't know. I'd still vote the former, for now at least, and I hope (and expect) that if the latter is taken, the criteria would stop going up after that. Anyway. Doing this would also mean that those who think topics with only 20% of articles featured don't deserve to be called featured, get their way. Whilst those who want to get some accreditation for their unified topics, but don't think it's feasible to get a high number of the articles involved featured, also can do so.
Let me clear up one over thing about what I'm envisioning - three levels of accreditation, yes, but still one process. Percentages aside, the criteria as they exist are simply designed to ensure that a topic is unified and complete. So in this new system, the process would stay the same as in the current system, in that people can apply for accreditation if they have a good topic which is unified and has no obvious gaps. And then to move from good to featured to fully featured is simply a matter of getting more articles in your topic featured, and in no way involves coming and making some additional nomination here. There could then be different logos for the three levels of featured topic, so the current FT star could be for fully featured topics (say), and there could be variants (involving GA icons?) to represent the other two levels. And then the appropriate logos appear on the appropriate talk pages etc. depending on how accredited a topic becomes.
The only thing I'm not sure about is what to call the new process. "Unified topics"? "Accredited topics"? Either way, it'd provide disruption as it'd (ironically) break unity with the other featured content process names. However, I feel it probably would have to be renamed, as (unless we create a second separate process, which would be stupid as the only difference would be percentage of articles featured) not all content involved would be called featured if it passed the process.
Anyway, on a more practical level, the disadvantage of doing this is that it's more complicated, but I'd be willing to help out with the work to move things about to reflect the new system, and think up clever ways to make it self-maintaining (I'm quite good at writing templates and utilising article categories - I recently overhauled the current system here to a much better one - and I already think I know roughly how I'd do this). And hopefully, if we do this, then the "featured" bar would be sufficiently high to appease everyone, and yet there would also be no more shifting criteria, so no more topics pushed out, when I think we all know the Simpsons people, and others, deserve some recognition here for their fantastic work.
So, what does everyone think? - rst20xx ( talk) 21:08, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Note: See my 23:33 message below for some clarifications - rst20xx ( talk) 23:47, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, I tried to make this clear, but now realise I painfully failed; I was in fact trying to propose that we "merely modify contents and markup rather than create parallel structures"; I don't think we should split the WP:FT page, merely denote different topics as different things on that one page. I would try to work out how to come up with a clever categorisation system, so that appropriate things appeared in topic boxes (e.g. the current FT stars for fully featured topics) / talk page article milestones (e.g. saying "This article is part of a good topic" plus appropriate star), without topics moving between GT and FT and FFT having to be maintained manually. (So everything would have some kind of star in its topic box like the current fully featured topics do, except obviously in some cases it'd be the GT star or some other non-fully FT star.) So the system would not, in fact, provide much more acknowledgement to fully featured topics than it currently does, beyond calling them that in various places, such as on the articles' talk pages, and giving them their own unique star. It wouldn't give them their own page. And similarly for good topics; it would have to acknowledge some topics under the name "good topics" for the reasons outlined above, instead of as featured topics, but all the unified topics would still be listed on one page like at WP:FT, not on three separate pages, and there'd still be one place for nominations, one nomination log and one set of criteria (with different %age clauses for the different types). Topics moving between the different classes should hopefully be fully automated, and as articles are promoted, and Template:ArticleHistory modified to reflect this, cats should change automatically, leading to the logos, counts, etc all updating cascadingly from this - rst20xx ( talk) 23:33, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
OK, I'm not hearing much support for the "fully featured topic" distinction, so maybe I'll drop that. Another idea we could have is that the minimum number of FAs in FTs is higher than 2, say 4 or fully featured (and GTs could still be 2). This stops small topics from getting it too easily.
I've worked out exactly how I'd do the categories. Firstly, I'd create 3 categories for each featured topic - one for the topic generally (called e.g. [:Category:Wikipedia featured topics topicname]]), and two subcategories, one for featured content and one for good content. So this would require the creation of 58*3=174 categories, and 3 more for each new FT, but is very doable. Then I'd use Template:ArticleHistory, with its ftname and currentstatus parameters, to automatically tag articles/lists into the right category (non-featured, non-good content can go into the general category). Now, the ftname category matches the title categories in Template:Featuredtopictalk and Template:Featured topic box. Hence, with minor modifications to each template, all 3 can count how many articles there are in each category. And so, using PAGESINCATEGORY and expr functions:
One final complication is that if we do go for fully featured topics (and it might be sensible to tag them as such anyway), then we'd need to set it so that on the 5 or so audited articles, they're tagged as such, and then these, too, have their own category, so then unlike other non-featured, non-good articles, audited articles don't stop topics from being fully featured - rst20xx ( talk) 13:20, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Addressing your points:
Overall, I'd say you raise some interesting issues, and to refer back to point 1, I think here's what we should do: I think that we should temporarily put this discussion aside, and go ahead and raise the FT criteria to 25%/33% this time as planned. Then, next time people start talking about raising the FT criteria, beyond 25%/33%, we reopen this conversation, as by then there should be more topics, so this should hopefully not seem like oversplitting like it does now (though it would also constitute slightly more work, but there you go). And then that time, we can raise the FT criteria again but introduce GTs for the newly ineligible topics - rst20xx ( talk) 15:33, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
So you guys are proposing setting up a separate space? Well I wasn't proposing that, seems a bit redundant to me if it could work combined with this space. But then it seems others wouldn't allow the changes here, so then it'd be the only way forward. I'm also intrigued by the idea of GTs having no FA/FL requirements at all, just being unified and gap-free. I proposed they take the current FT requirements as this way the bar is still attainable for people like the Simpsons guys and other TV series, but they'd have to improve their topics further before they get to the end, and I suspect many of them would stop working once at the end, wherever that happens to be. So the higher the better, so long as it's doable. Well anyway, as I said, my opinion is we should hold off on this, for now - rst20xx ( talk) 17:55, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Straw poll? Maybe we can make a final decision that way. If so, I can set it up.Mitch32( UP) 18:28, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia:Good topics. Please note: This is only a proposed process. It has not gained consensus to be used as an actual process on Wikipedia yet.
I like the idea proposed by Mitchazenia ( talk · contribs) to have a straw poll about whether to start this process, we could conduct that poll at Wikipedia talk:Good topics. Cirt ( talk) 18:52, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Addition of quickfail criteria to WP:WIAFT discussed, see archived section |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This is from Cirt and I. At the moment, the rules state that:
We would like to make failing this be grounds for a quickfail of a featured topic candidate. We realise this will make more administrative work, but it is frustrating to see people prematurely bring nominations time and time again, and if the rules are changed we believe this will happen much less frequently - rst20xx ( talk) 22:20, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
This proposal seems to have passed, if anyone wants to go ahead and add the wording to WIAFT. -- PresN ( talk) 00:07, 28 August 2008 (UTC) |
I have now done this, so PresN, you can consider it closed with proposal passed - rst20xx ( talk) 16:55, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
It currently states at WP:FTC that "If you nominate something you have worked on, note it as a self-nomination. Nominators who are not significant contributors to the articles of the topic should consult regular editors of the articles prior to nomination." Can we make this grounds for a quickfail too? I think this should probably also be copied to WP:FP? as annoyingly editors are still missing it and bringing noms for topics they have not put any work into themselves - rst20xx ( talk) 14:48, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
Okay, well I've taken the step of copying the nom procedure from WP:FTC to the recommendations section, so people are less likely to miss it. Hopefully this should address the problem somewhat, and so I shall withdraw this proposal to give time to see if the problem persists - rst20xx ( talk) 16:55, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
NOTE: This proposal is currently on hold, whilst there are other open proposals also competing for editors' attentions - rst20xx ( talk) 13:44, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
After much discussion with Cirt, we have a second proposal to bring. We're going to ask you to vote twice. (This is complicated, bear with us, sorry.) Criteria 3.c) states:
(Note we are not proposing a change to the rules for articles of inherent instability, only the limited stable articles.) We both feel that if a stable article or list is truly as well written as possible, it should be able to pass GA or FL, no matter what its length. Good and featured content should reflect the quality of the content, not its length. Hence, we would ultimately like to remove the "limited subject matter" bit.
However, we recognise that if an article or list fails GA/FL solely due to being inherently short, then we need to allow the topic to pass FT, as otherwise we are leaving the nominators stranded between a rock and a hard place. But at the moment, the rules don't make the nominator demonstrate the article or list would fail GAC or FLC for this reason, it just makes them peer review it. Hence, we would like to change the rules to force limited subject matter articles to go through a GAC or FLC.
So we would like to see 3.c) be split into 3.c) and 3.d), with 3.d) saying:
and 3.c) saying:
At this point, Cirt and I disagree slightly. Cirt believes that on top of a GAC or FLC, limited subject matter articles should also go through a peer review, with all problems fixed, as an additional quality check. So he would have 3.c) be:
However, I do not think this extra step is necessary, as I think the good or featured candidacy should also act as a de facto peer review, and if the only reason the article or list fails is due to inherent shortness, then in theory all other problems are fixed.
So in summary, we would like you to vote twice: Firstly, if you support a change to the rule, and secondly, whether you favour my version of 3.c) (the first version), or Cirt's version (the second version). Thank you - rst20xx ( talk) 23:41, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
It's becoming impossible to keep track of the status of 5 different proposals across 2 talk pages, so I'm going to attempt to outline what currently has consensus, and where everything is.
I'll try to keep this updated as developments ensue. -- PresN ( talk) 20:28, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
I am going to write a fully detailed, step-by-step plan of how exactly I would proceed - rst20xx ( talk) 13:03, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Okay, it appears the poll has finished, so see the "Good topics implementation plan" below - rst20xx ( talk) 22:20, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
The nomination of Galilean moons as a topic raises an intereseting question about the crietria for me.... if "Moons of Jupiter" becamse a topic, then "Galilean moons" would be completely contained within it ... so, should the criteria allow one featured topic to be completely contained in another? Tompw ( talk) ( review) 16:32, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
I've written a fully detailed, unambiguous plan as to how I would implement good topics. However, as this is a fairly complex issue, the plan is long, so instead of posting it here, I've put it at a subpage here - rst20xx ( talk) 22:22, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Well obviously you don't revisit this page often enough, or else you would have been able to voice your oppose at Wikipedia talk:Good topics. However, that motion passed, so now we are onto the hows, not the ifs - rst20xx ( talk) 16:41, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
(reset) My comments to that are that while I agree that it's unlikely to the point of near-impossibility that there will be two valid topics with more than 50% overlap, I definitely think that there could be two topics with less than 50% overlap that have too much overlap, so this black and white approach won't cater for all cases that it needs to. Conversely, I see your point that having the system I suggested above where users are allowed to oppose somewhat arbitrarily will probably lead to arguments on the nomination pages, and possibly topics failing needlessly. So maybe we need a subtler system, saying something along the lines that overlap is only acceptable if it seems natural, or is unavoidable, but phrased better than that, possibly to be more technical. And I certainly think we could agree on a hard and fast rule now that an overlap of one article is always acceptable - rst20xx ( talk) 00:45, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Just pointing this out, the Period 1 elements topic has a 33% overlap with the Noble gases topic. Rreagan007 ( talk) 14:39, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
In the elements topics, the groups and periods are each distinct fields of study. In the solar system, however, the dwarf planets are a subset of the Solar System. In the former there can be complete overlap, whereas in the later the only overlap you need is the Dwarf planet article with all of the dwarf planets themselves in the subtopic. I'm not sure how we can codify this as a rule. It would have to be something along the lines of "articles need not be in both a subtopic and a supertopic except for the lead article of the subtopic". -- Arctic Gnome ( talk • contribs) 16:24, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Okay, so does this mean consensus is generally to add the proposed 1.(e) at the top of this section? rst20xx ( talk) 14:34, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps everyone here would like to explain the pointless obsession of continually changing the FT criteria? Whenever I revisit this page, it seems the FT criteria is changing. Frankly, it's becoming a pathetic joke, and is making a potentially great process become gradually worthless. Above people have agreed that a topic needs 25% of its material featured, and with a proposal to change it to 33.3% in a few months. What next? 50%? 75%? A 100%? Really, get a grip. Raising that bar only affects topics where certain articles have a limit to the heights they can reach - not all articles can reach FA, or GA, so what happens to them? And there was me thinking the FT process was working wonderfully - how wrong I was. While I'm on the topic, are there any more pointless proposals editors wish to waste people's time with? LuciferMorgan ( talk) 18:16, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Featured topic criteria#Retention says:
Can The Simpsons WikiProject please get an extension on getting Wikipedia:Featured topics/The Simpsons (season 9) up to the required 20%? Wikipedia:Featured topics/The Simpsons (season 8) is most likely not doable without some sort of superhuman effort in the next few hours, but I think we will be able to get Season 9 up to par in a relatively short amount of time, perhaps another 2 months? Thank you for your consideration.
Cirt ( talk) 20:00, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
As far as I can tell, the only article that is being raised to FA status has failed twice, once a few day ago. Why do you believe that you can make it in two months? I am not trying to be difficult, I would just like an explanation before handing out an extension. Z gin der 2008-08-27T20:52Z ( UTC)
An FTRC isn't really needed, as we are only days away from opening the Good Topics page, at which time the Simpsons topics can move there until they are ready to come back. -- Arctic Gnome ( talk • contribs) 21:58, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Just to clarify for myself and I'm sure some others, the only difference between Featured and Good topics are the FA requirements, correct? Meaning a topic full of just GAs meets the GT requirements. The past month has been a bit blurry and I want to make sure before commenting at nominations. ( Guyinblack25 talk 20:49, 10 September 2008 (UTC))
Perhaps for the sake of clarity, we can put something on the criteria page something like Note: the only difference between a good topic and a featured topic is that criterion 3(a) only applies to featured topics. Rreagan007 ( talk) 21:59, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Please address any questions you have about how exactly good topics are implemented here - rst20xx ( talk) 02:38, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
I had a thought; if an approved existing Good Topic at some point gets enough FA's to justify being a Featured Topic, I think instead of having a re-nomination, we should just note it in the history of the topic and upgrade it without a comment period or a vote. It will have already gone through that to be a Good Topic, so it won't need re-discussion. Also, if a Featured Topic is removed for failing the Featured Topic criteria, but still meets the Good Topic criteria, it should also be seemlessly added to the Good Topics page and noted in the history. It will save a lot of pointless procedure that would otherwise take place. Judgesurreal777 ( talk) 23:20, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Um, we have a problem, especially with my 3 next Featured Topics. New York State Route 28N would end up being part of those 3 plus the current "State touring routes in Warren County, New York" topic. Is there a real problem with overlapping, because this is a big reason to oppose and is awfully ridiculous when there are highways that go into different counties. Is there a way to make an exception to this rule, because its awfully ridiculous to oppose solely on that.Mitch32( UP) 14:53, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Ok, now that all of Featured Topic criteria has been overhauled, and the Good Topics page is setup and running, (I expect it will be a huge success) I think we should talk about, as many have suggested, the idea of re-upping the criteria. You see, we upped it from 20% to 25%, but since the Simpsons topics were both shifted to Good Topics, the remaining featured topics were totally uneffected, so there has been no real qualitation improvement by upping the percentage. I think we should say that on October 1st, the criteria should be upped to 33% rounded up. It sounds large, but isn't. Here is what would happen;
I think raising the standards now that Good Topics are up and running is an excellent idea. I'd actually like to see it be raised to something like 50%, but I know that probably won't happen since there was opposition just getting it raised to 25%. Raising it to 33% at this time seems perfectly reasonable to me. Rreagan007 ( talk) 22:13, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Agree with raising in the long term, oppose for now. I think we should hold off until at least 2009 before raising yet again - rst20xx ( talk) 00:33, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure what does this mean. 24.01% or more? Admiral Norton ( talk) 21:00, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
Here's an idea - we could turn it on its head. 25% (rounded up) is equivalent to saying that if you multiply the number of featured articles by four, the result needs to be at least the total number of articles. So we could change the phrasing to "This must be at least one in four articles in the topic, or a minimum of two." - rst20xx ( talk) 16:45, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Well, wouldn't "at least 25%" suffice? It's much less obscure than the "rounded up" part. It's accurate in situations like 3 out of 10 (30%) or 4 out of 15 (about 27%) Admiral Norton ( talk) 17:44, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Ok well it looks to me like consensus is for making the change, so I am going to go ahead and change it (sorry I wasn't logged in when I made the change). But while we're all thinking about this I want to make another suggestion. Criterion 3.c addresses "items that are ineligible for featured or good article status" and says that "such items do not count towards criterion 1.a." I propose adding to that sentence so it will read, "Such items do not count towards criteria 1.a, 3.a, or 3.b." It is obviously current practice that audited articles do not count against 3.a.ii or 3.b, because if they did then any topic with an audited item would fail as a featured or good topic automatically, but this should still be codified in the criteria. And while I'm all for increasing the percentage of featured articles required, I think it would be unfair to have audited articles count against the required percentage of featured articles. This change would fix both problems. Rreagan007 ( talk) 16:51, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Does the A-class review done by individual WikiProjects (say the film review one) fulfill the requirements for a peer review in order for a page to be "audited"? The specific case I am referring to is lists that are not long enough to pass at FLC (which has a relative minimum of 10 items, subject to exceptions) and yet are long enough to exist as a stand-alone list; ergo, passing them at A-class review is the alternative to a run at FLC. sephiroth bcr ( converse) 07:36, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
I think some further clarification may be needed on the page. My interpretation, based on the way it is written, is that the idea of "gaps" is based on the fact that there are articles in existence that are connected to the topic, but are absent from the feature topic candidancy. The problem comes where I have seen people arguing that what 1D really means is that the "gap" is for when there are pages that DO NOT exist, but SHOULD exist. In this specific case, it would be episode articles for a television show topic. The problem with the latter argument is that it is assuming that all TV episodes are notable, when they aren't. If 15 episodes out of a 20 episode season fail WP:NOTE and WP:FICT, and any other relevant policies and guidelines that force them to not have their own articles, then that should not disqualify a topic from being featured if the ones that do meet Wikipedia's criteria for article creation are either Featured or Good Articles. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 05:13, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
I would like to propose a small change to how FTs are presented based on the Smallville FTR, specifically that when there is an obvious set of article topics that fall as immediate and obvious children of the topic (in this case, all episodes of S1 of Smallville), but these topics themselves cannot support an article due to other policies (notability the most likely one), then the FTC should include a listing of redirects and/or disambig entries that "fill out" the topic (eg episodes that cannot have their own article) with the redirects or disamb pointing to one of the other articles (ideally the main one, but not necessary) in the FTC. These redirects/disamb do not count towards or against the % of articles for other FT requirements, but do show that the topic is as comprehensive as possible, with the ability for use to actually search for each "obvious" entry in the topic.
I note when I say "immediate and obvious" there is some subjectivity to this. But, say, take the Kingdom Hearts FT, which has its "Characters" article. The immediate children of the KH topic is the games and the setting/character articles, however, I would argue that specific characters unique to the series, such as Sora, are not immediate children, and thus redirects/disambigs for all of these aren't necessary to include for the series topic; they would be if the Characters of KH were expanded to its own FT. Basically, this should be a requirement that is easy to fulfill if someone notes that there are gaps that cannot be filled but can be redirected, but it does help to show what the full intent of the topic is that the nominator had. -- MASEM 20:09, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
I am not sure if I understand this criteria. Does it mean that if an article went through a peer review, then it would automatically pass the individual quality audit? Or is there more to it?— Chris! c t 19:16, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, just to make clear, the audited clause is no way an alternative to getting an article to GA/FA/FL, it is solely intended for articles that can't get there due to either inherent shortness or inherent instability - rst20xx ( talk) 13:52, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
For the Guitar Hero series, one of the articles that needed to be improved ( List of songs in Guitar Hero World Tour) has now achieved FLC status, per the timing requirements. Should I be BOLD to update the topic and well as remove the indicators on this page for that, or does this need to go through a formal process? Again, this is not adding article, just moving the status of an article from previously being peer reviewed to FLC. -- MASEM 17:47, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
In a bit of unexpected news, Kingdom Hearts coded looks to have been given a limited release as a preinstalled game in a new model of phone in Japan. However, I have no reliable source to verify a release date. The only sourcing I've found are the phone's product page and the game's official website stating the model it's installed on. As far as release dates, all I've found are the company's product listing which state the phone is "on sale now", and the official website which states the phone is available in November 2008.
I'm assuming this all counts as an official release, however, I can't really find an official release date, which is needed to determine the retention period. The fansites started buzzing about all this last week and have been adding November 19th to the article. Should this be start of the retention period? ( Guyinblack25 talk 16:05, 25 November 2008 (UTC))
GameSpot has posted the release date (November 18, 2008). I've got no problem with the three month time frame starting from then. Plus I don't think a special exception should be made. If it gets delisted, then it's delisted. It became an FT once and it can do it again if need be. ( Guyinblack25 talk 15:24, 4 December 2008 (UTC))
I noticed in the descriptions of the difference between FT and GT, that 25% of the articles in them should be featured to gain FT. Does anyone think this is a bit too easy? What are peoples opinions on making it 33% or 50% instead? I've just got to planning a topic, and even if it all worked completely according to plan, it would have 3 GAs and 2 FL, and i wouldn't consider that to be inline with that "featured" should mean (ie. best of wikipedia). Even making it 50% would instead make this a GT until only one of the articles makes FA. Nb. A 33% threshold would affect 5 current FTs, with each needing one more FA.
The list of GTs is short compared to FTs. Increasing the criteria would balance the numbers more, and more accurately reflect the quality of the articles contained in the topics. Yes, no? I see that the discussions in the archives were beofre Good topics got established, and most of the arguemnts against were the unfiairness of delisting topics - these would now go to GT (which is still pretty darn good!). Yobmod ( talk) 10:25, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
I suggest that this page not be constantly edited for retentions so that we can better monitor the changes to the criteria. Z gin der 2008-12-06T19:15Z ( UTC)
I know this article was just peer reviewed, in order to stay out of retention, but couldn't this actually make FLC? It has 11 entries, after all (when it was promoted, it had 9) - rst20xx ( talk) 15:13, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
There's a discussion about this going on over here about this - rst20xx ( talk) 15:35, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I propose that the requirement gets formalized as follows:
There are only two current topics that wouldn't meet this - The Simpsons (season 8) and The Simpsons (season 9), which are only one short. Tompw ( talk) ( review) 20:42, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
(indent reset). I wanna add, (being someone who's starting a 40 article FT), that the 1/5 one is better. I also think about 22% of the articles should be Featured instead of 20. In my case, that would be 9 Featured. I know 22 is a little bit random but it may help in a bad situation. Otherwise, if my idea doesn't work, I'm all for the 1/5 proposal. Mitch 32 contribs 15:58, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I have a question: Does the number of articles include the keystone article? Forex, in the Simpsons FTs, does the Season 8/9 article count towards the number of FAs needed for a FT? JKBrooks85 ( talk) 03:26, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Congratulations, everyone! I think we finally have a rule that makes sense.-- Pharos ( talk) 02:51, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
I think we should have a grace period stated before this comes up again. I propose three months for a demotion of an article, and six months for a grandfather topic with a change in the requirements. Zginder ( talk) ( Contrib) 22:21, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
I propose that criterion 3.c be changed to
I would change it myself, but I am not sure of the intent of the last sentence: I am not quite sure whether the "This" in "This can not be use" refers to each individual limited-subject-matter item, or to criterion 3.c itself (the former sounds right, but some consensus would be nice here anyway).
— an odd name 19:53, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I think that it might be time to make some of the recommended criteria mandatory for topics that are in a clear series or are nothing but list articles. For all-list topics, I think that it is reasonable to expect them to have similar headings and have a similar structure. Check out the lists in the hurricane topics, they all have tables in the same places and list the same information in the same places. I think that this is key in making the topics unified, giving FT a more concrete objective. Obviously this wouldn't apply to all-prose topics with articles like "history of". Looking over the existing list-topics, most of them already comply with this optional requirement, and given that it's easier to pass FL than FA, I think this little bit of extra work is reasonable to ask of them. -- Arctic Gnome ( talk • contribs) 18:28, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
In my view, the text was better beforehand. I propose that it be reinstated. Was 20 undesirable? Choose a different number then.
[1] TONY (talk) 12:31, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
In light of the discussion here, I would think it would be sensible to change the last recommendation to:
"To avoid wasting time, the topic should not have any Good article reassessments, Featured article reviews, Featured article removal candidates, or Featured list removal candidates when nominated for featured topic, and should only have Good article nominations, Featured article candidates and Featured list candidates if the result does not affect whether the topic meets the featured topic criteria. Please have all required processes done before nominating."
This is slightly more complicated but more logical and avoids future discussions like the one at Orange Box. Thoughts? - rst20xx ( talk) 01:12, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
The Star Wars topic needs to undergo a retention period, given that one of its articles was recently demoted from featured status. Also, another may be demoted soon. I was going to nominate it for removal, but thought it'd be better to post this message here. LuciferMorgan ( talk) 15:31, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
One thing that I've noticed is that there's no clear policy regarding including articles in topics which are about current/future events/TV series/etc (Henceforth I'll simply call these "future events" or else this'll get painful), where this last article cannot become a GA yet due to inherent instability.
Sometimes (for example, with the Degrassi and Lost series topics) the articles for future events are audited, and then included in the topic as such until the event is finished, at which point the topic has a retention period to get the article to GA. Other times, the article is not included during this period, and simply goes straight into the article as GA during the retention period (for example, the Devil May Cry topic tried to take this route, though this ultimately didn't happen as DMC4 didn't get to GA within the retention period).
I think the rules should be clarified regarding such articles. Here's what I propose should be the case:
Why do I think the extra articles should be included? Because they're part of the topic! Whether an event has happened yet or not, it's still part of the topic, and therefore should be included from the start.
Yes, this makes things slightly more complicated (especially point 2), but the new rules would lead to more complete featured topics as a result.
So which current featured topics would be immediately affected by point 1? The following:
I think that's it.
I realise it'd be annoying to have to put these topics into grace, but as I said this rule change would lead to more complete featured topics, and we could always make exceptions for these two existing topics and allow them to continue under the current system.
Thoughts? rst20xx ( talk) 17:56, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Items that cannot achieve a high rating (as stated in 3.a and 3.b) due to their limited subject matter have passed an individual audit for quality which included a completed peer review with all important problems fixed. Such items cannot be used to fulfill criterion 1.a.
Items that cannot achieve a high rating (as stated in 3.a and 3.b) due to either their limited subject matter or inherent instability have passed an individual audit for quality which included a completed peer review with all important problems fixed. Such items cannot be used to fulfill criterion 1.a.
This has happened several times, and one of them was with the newly classified dwarf planet. It should be written in the Featured Topic rules that you cannot do this, as it seems to keep happening. Judgesurreal777 ( talk) 17:41, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
I think I have all of them on my watchlist, but sometimes they still sneak through. I'm thinking about protecting the boxes, but then users won't be able to update the GA/FA icons when articles get promoted. For now I'll add an invisible tag at the top of all problem boxes asking users not to add new articles without a nomination. --
Arctic Gnome (
talk •
contribs)
21:55, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
I've started a talk on how we should handle overview topics at Wikipedia_talk:Featured_topics#Overview_topics, comments are apriciated. -- Arctic Gnome ( talk • contribs) 10:33, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
"Items that are ineligible for featured or good article status, due to either their limited subject matter or inherent instability, must have passed an individual quality audit that included a completed peer review, with all important problems fixed. Such items do not count towards criterion 1.a."
Since when does brevity prevent an article from earning GA or FA status? WP:FACR 4 only states that the article should not be too long, and 1b states that the article should be comprehensive. Francium (FA) is only 22kb, Tropical Storm Mindy (2003) (GA) is only 13kb, but they both passed because they are extremely comprehensive given how little there is to write about the subjects. So long as an article is comprehensive, its length should not prevent it from achieving GA/FA. Or, if there really isn't enough information to make an article worthwhile, it should simply be merged into one of the other articles in the topic.
Insufficient length should no longer be a factor in FT criterion 3c. -- Cryptic C62 · Talk 18:04, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
Or FLs, of course. During Wikipedia:Featured topic candidates/The Legend of Zelda titles, there were some opposes due to the low number of FAs in the topic, even though the topic met the 20% threshold. I'd like to consider raising this to 25% (from one in five to one in four). Looking through the existing FTs, the only two that do not already have at least 25% featured content are the two Simpsons seasons (feel free to double-check me, though), which do not meet the 20% requirement either, and are eligible for removal near the end of the month. In addition, all FTCs also have at least 25% featured content, so this seems like as good a time as any to raise the standard. Pagra shtak 18:56, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Article count | 20% FA | 25% FA |
---|---|---|
3 – 8 | 2 | 2 |
9 – 10 | 2 | 3 |
11 – 12 | 3 | 3 |
13 – 15 | 3 | 4 |
16 | 4 | 4 |
17 – 20 | 4 | 5 |
21 – 24 | 5 | 6 |
25 | 5 | 7 |
26 – 28 | 6 | 7 |
29 – 30 | 6 | 8 |
Why not make it at least a third, and give everyone 12 months to satisfy the condition? That could underpin an improvement campaign. Tony (talk) 02:50, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Topic No. of FA's
So you see, all but the two simpsons topics would have only one FA to raise to meet the much higher criteria. True, Simpsons Wikiproject would have their work cut out for them, but they would still have a whole year to do it in. I personally think it would be doable. Thoughts? Judgesurreal777 ( talk) 03:31, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
As one of the editors who has worked on the Simpsons FTs, I am going to say right now that I am not even going to bother with this catch up game. Here we are (potentially) a week (or so) from saving one of the FTs and suddenly the bar is going to be raised again. Who is to say that someone else isn't going to want to raise the bar to 40% or even 1/2? For anyone who has ever worked on an episode article (especially decade old ones), you would know how difficult it is to raise them to FA standards (especially now that the FA standards are higher than they were 6 months ago) and the prospect of having to get five more for season 8 and four more for season 9 is more than disheartening (and it pretty much kills our season 4 drive). So instead of these "we'll give you a year" games, why not just delist them now and save us all a lot of time? -- Scorpion 0422 20:43, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps at some point Featured topic will mean that all articles within the topic scope are of WP:FA/ WP:FL status. Cirt ( talk) 21:58, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I think the problem here is with the Featured Article process, not Featured Topics. If an article is truly as well-researched as is reasonably possible, why shouldn't it be able to get to FA? Yes, it may be shorter than some other article of comparable type, but featured content should represent content that is the best Wikipedia can offer, and if an article is as good as it can be, but short, then it should still be featured IMO. I hate the fact that there is this glass ceiling on the accreditation many articles can attain, as if an article is the best it can be, then it should be of the highest accreditation there is - rst20xx ( talk) 16:26, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Right, this has now gone to 25%, and under current plans the Simpsons topics will become good topics once good topics are implemented - rst20xx ( talk) 16:09, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
Degrassi: The Next Generation (season 7) got its featured list star today so I removed it from the retention list. Season 8 has been greenlit for production, but Degrassi: The Next Generation (season 8) is currently salted as there are not enough sources for an article yet, and 14 year old fans keep creating it. Matthewedwards ( talk • contribs • email) 19:08, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Firstly, let's make clear this proposal is only going to deal with criteria regarding the percentage of articles that need to be featured in a topic, i.e. 3.a) The rest of the criteria will be left untouched. OK, now let's examine the conversation above. There seems to be two camps here, and I think they both make strong arguments, so let me outline them.
Consensus amongst many editors is that featured topic criteria need to go up over time, as they think that 20% is simply too low. How can they be "featured" topics, the thought goes, when only one in five articles in the topic need be featured?!? And I kind of see their point.
Equally, consensus amongst many others is that they should not go up. There are two reasons for this. Firstly, for certain topics, it may be impossible to reach higher criteria; for example, WP:Simpsons are arguing above that most articles in their two topics simply aren't notable enough to get featured, and as much as it saddens me (I think all articles, if they are written as well as is reasonably possible, should be able to get featured, no matter how substantial they are... but I digress), I think this is true.
The second reason is that if the bar is set higher, then people might not even bother trying to get their topics featured in the first place, which would, ultimately, be detrimental to the quality of content in Wikipedia. Evidence for this, again, is that WP:Simpsons are now saying they might just give up. They probably wouldn't have even bothered trying in the first place, if the bar was at 33% from the start. Having said that, you could equally argue it the other way; with criteria as it stands, people often get their topics to about the 20% mark, get them featured, then leave them at that. By pushing the criteria up, people will get their topics that bit farther before leaving them be, and certainly I think that pushing the criteria up will cause the majority of topics that would no longer meet the criteria, to improve so that they continue to meet the criteria. And similarly for new topics. And I don't expect that this would happen otherwise. (If you follow me.)
So my proposal is that, while we could push the criteria up, instead we could make several levels of accreditation. This way, editors will have an incentive to keep working on existing topics, but topics such as the Simpsons series don't get cut out.
I think the best way to do this would be to have three levels: "good topics", "featured topics", and "fully featured topics". (Obviously the names are open to debate, but these names work for me.) Then the general name for a good/featured/fully featured topic could be a "unified topic", or "accredited topic". I see two natural ways to split the percentages: exponentially (25% for good, 50% for featured and 100% for fully featured), or lineraly (33%, 67%, 100%). That's open to debate. I'd lean the former, but I expect if we went for the former, people would later clammer for the latter, so I don't know. I'd still vote the former, for now at least, and I hope (and expect) that if the latter is taken, the criteria would stop going up after that. Anyway. Doing this would also mean that those who think topics with only 20% of articles featured don't deserve to be called featured, get their way. Whilst those who want to get some accreditation for their unified topics, but don't think it's feasible to get a high number of the articles involved featured, also can do so.
Let me clear up one over thing about what I'm envisioning - three levels of accreditation, yes, but still one process. Percentages aside, the criteria as they exist are simply designed to ensure that a topic is unified and complete. So in this new system, the process would stay the same as in the current system, in that people can apply for accreditation if they have a good topic which is unified and has no obvious gaps. And then to move from good to featured to fully featured is simply a matter of getting more articles in your topic featured, and in no way involves coming and making some additional nomination here. There could then be different logos for the three levels of featured topic, so the current FT star could be for fully featured topics (say), and there could be variants (involving GA icons?) to represent the other two levels. And then the appropriate logos appear on the appropriate talk pages etc. depending on how accredited a topic becomes.
The only thing I'm not sure about is what to call the new process. "Unified topics"? "Accredited topics"? Either way, it'd provide disruption as it'd (ironically) break unity with the other featured content process names. However, I feel it probably would have to be renamed, as (unless we create a second separate process, which would be stupid as the only difference would be percentage of articles featured) not all content involved would be called featured if it passed the process.
Anyway, on a more practical level, the disadvantage of doing this is that it's more complicated, but I'd be willing to help out with the work to move things about to reflect the new system, and think up clever ways to make it self-maintaining (I'm quite good at writing templates and utilising article categories - I recently overhauled the current system here to a much better one - and I already think I know roughly how I'd do this). And hopefully, if we do this, then the "featured" bar would be sufficiently high to appease everyone, and yet there would also be no more shifting criteria, so no more topics pushed out, when I think we all know the Simpsons people, and others, deserve some recognition here for their fantastic work.
So, what does everyone think? - rst20xx ( talk) 21:08, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Note: See my 23:33 message below for some clarifications - rst20xx ( talk) 23:47, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, I tried to make this clear, but now realise I painfully failed; I was in fact trying to propose that we "merely modify contents and markup rather than create parallel structures"; I don't think we should split the WP:FT page, merely denote different topics as different things on that one page. I would try to work out how to come up with a clever categorisation system, so that appropriate things appeared in topic boxes (e.g. the current FT stars for fully featured topics) / talk page article milestones (e.g. saying "This article is part of a good topic" plus appropriate star), without topics moving between GT and FT and FFT having to be maintained manually. (So everything would have some kind of star in its topic box like the current fully featured topics do, except obviously in some cases it'd be the GT star or some other non-fully FT star.) So the system would not, in fact, provide much more acknowledgement to fully featured topics than it currently does, beyond calling them that in various places, such as on the articles' talk pages, and giving them their own unique star. It wouldn't give them their own page. And similarly for good topics; it would have to acknowledge some topics under the name "good topics" for the reasons outlined above, instead of as featured topics, but all the unified topics would still be listed on one page like at WP:FT, not on three separate pages, and there'd still be one place for nominations, one nomination log and one set of criteria (with different %age clauses for the different types). Topics moving between the different classes should hopefully be fully automated, and as articles are promoted, and Template:ArticleHistory modified to reflect this, cats should change automatically, leading to the logos, counts, etc all updating cascadingly from this - rst20xx ( talk) 23:33, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
OK, I'm not hearing much support for the "fully featured topic" distinction, so maybe I'll drop that. Another idea we could have is that the minimum number of FAs in FTs is higher than 2, say 4 or fully featured (and GTs could still be 2). This stops small topics from getting it too easily.
I've worked out exactly how I'd do the categories. Firstly, I'd create 3 categories for each featured topic - one for the topic generally (called e.g. [:Category:Wikipedia featured topics topicname]]), and two subcategories, one for featured content and one for good content. So this would require the creation of 58*3=174 categories, and 3 more for each new FT, but is very doable. Then I'd use Template:ArticleHistory, with its ftname and currentstatus parameters, to automatically tag articles/lists into the right category (non-featured, non-good content can go into the general category). Now, the ftname category matches the title categories in Template:Featuredtopictalk and Template:Featured topic box. Hence, with minor modifications to each template, all 3 can count how many articles there are in each category. And so, using PAGESINCATEGORY and expr functions:
One final complication is that if we do go for fully featured topics (and it might be sensible to tag them as such anyway), then we'd need to set it so that on the 5 or so audited articles, they're tagged as such, and then these, too, have their own category, so then unlike other non-featured, non-good articles, audited articles don't stop topics from being fully featured - rst20xx ( talk) 13:20, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Addressing your points:
Overall, I'd say you raise some interesting issues, and to refer back to point 1, I think here's what we should do: I think that we should temporarily put this discussion aside, and go ahead and raise the FT criteria to 25%/33% this time as planned. Then, next time people start talking about raising the FT criteria, beyond 25%/33%, we reopen this conversation, as by then there should be more topics, so this should hopefully not seem like oversplitting like it does now (though it would also constitute slightly more work, but there you go). And then that time, we can raise the FT criteria again but introduce GTs for the newly ineligible topics - rst20xx ( talk) 15:33, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
So you guys are proposing setting up a separate space? Well I wasn't proposing that, seems a bit redundant to me if it could work combined with this space. But then it seems others wouldn't allow the changes here, so then it'd be the only way forward. I'm also intrigued by the idea of GTs having no FA/FL requirements at all, just being unified and gap-free. I proposed they take the current FT requirements as this way the bar is still attainable for people like the Simpsons guys and other TV series, but they'd have to improve their topics further before they get to the end, and I suspect many of them would stop working once at the end, wherever that happens to be. So the higher the better, so long as it's doable. Well anyway, as I said, my opinion is we should hold off on this, for now - rst20xx ( talk) 17:55, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Straw poll? Maybe we can make a final decision that way. If so, I can set it up.Mitch32( UP) 18:28, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia:Good topics. Please note: This is only a proposed process. It has not gained consensus to be used as an actual process on Wikipedia yet.
I like the idea proposed by Mitchazenia ( talk · contribs) to have a straw poll about whether to start this process, we could conduct that poll at Wikipedia talk:Good topics. Cirt ( talk) 18:52, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Addition of quickfail criteria to WP:WIAFT discussed, see archived section |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This is from Cirt and I. At the moment, the rules state that:
We would like to make failing this be grounds for a quickfail of a featured topic candidate. We realise this will make more administrative work, but it is frustrating to see people prematurely bring nominations time and time again, and if the rules are changed we believe this will happen much less frequently - rst20xx ( talk) 22:20, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
This proposal seems to have passed, if anyone wants to go ahead and add the wording to WIAFT. -- PresN ( talk) 00:07, 28 August 2008 (UTC) |
I have now done this, so PresN, you can consider it closed with proposal passed - rst20xx ( talk) 16:55, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
It currently states at WP:FTC that "If you nominate something you have worked on, note it as a self-nomination. Nominators who are not significant contributors to the articles of the topic should consult regular editors of the articles prior to nomination." Can we make this grounds for a quickfail too? I think this should probably also be copied to WP:FP? as annoyingly editors are still missing it and bringing noms for topics they have not put any work into themselves - rst20xx ( talk) 14:48, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
Okay, well I've taken the step of copying the nom procedure from WP:FTC to the recommendations section, so people are less likely to miss it. Hopefully this should address the problem somewhat, and so I shall withdraw this proposal to give time to see if the problem persists - rst20xx ( talk) 16:55, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
NOTE: This proposal is currently on hold, whilst there are other open proposals also competing for editors' attentions - rst20xx ( talk) 13:44, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
After much discussion with Cirt, we have a second proposal to bring. We're going to ask you to vote twice. (This is complicated, bear with us, sorry.) Criteria 3.c) states:
(Note we are not proposing a change to the rules for articles of inherent instability, only the limited stable articles.) We both feel that if a stable article or list is truly as well written as possible, it should be able to pass GA or FL, no matter what its length. Good and featured content should reflect the quality of the content, not its length. Hence, we would ultimately like to remove the "limited subject matter" bit.
However, we recognise that if an article or list fails GA/FL solely due to being inherently short, then we need to allow the topic to pass FT, as otherwise we are leaving the nominators stranded between a rock and a hard place. But at the moment, the rules don't make the nominator demonstrate the article or list would fail GAC or FLC for this reason, it just makes them peer review it. Hence, we would like to change the rules to force limited subject matter articles to go through a GAC or FLC.
So we would like to see 3.c) be split into 3.c) and 3.d), with 3.d) saying:
and 3.c) saying:
At this point, Cirt and I disagree slightly. Cirt believes that on top of a GAC or FLC, limited subject matter articles should also go through a peer review, with all problems fixed, as an additional quality check. So he would have 3.c) be:
However, I do not think this extra step is necessary, as I think the good or featured candidacy should also act as a de facto peer review, and if the only reason the article or list fails is due to inherent shortness, then in theory all other problems are fixed.
So in summary, we would like you to vote twice: Firstly, if you support a change to the rule, and secondly, whether you favour my version of 3.c) (the first version), or Cirt's version (the second version). Thank you - rst20xx ( talk) 23:41, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
It's becoming impossible to keep track of the status of 5 different proposals across 2 talk pages, so I'm going to attempt to outline what currently has consensus, and where everything is.
I'll try to keep this updated as developments ensue. -- PresN ( talk) 20:28, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
I am going to write a fully detailed, step-by-step plan of how exactly I would proceed - rst20xx ( talk) 13:03, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Okay, it appears the poll has finished, so see the "Good topics implementation plan" below - rst20xx ( talk) 22:20, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
The nomination of Galilean moons as a topic raises an intereseting question about the crietria for me.... if "Moons of Jupiter" becamse a topic, then "Galilean moons" would be completely contained within it ... so, should the criteria allow one featured topic to be completely contained in another? Tompw ( talk) ( review) 16:32, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
I've written a fully detailed, unambiguous plan as to how I would implement good topics. However, as this is a fairly complex issue, the plan is long, so instead of posting it here, I've put it at a subpage here - rst20xx ( talk) 22:22, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Well obviously you don't revisit this page often enough, or else you would have been able to voice your oppose at Wikipedia talk:Good topics. However, that motion passed, so now we are onto the hows, not the ifs - rst20xx ( talk) 16:41, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
(reset) My comments to that are that while I agree that it's unlikely to the point of near-impossibility that there will be two valid topics with more than 50% overlap, I definitely think that there could be two topics with less than 50% overlap that have too much overlap, so this black and white approach won't cater for all cases that it needs to. Conversely, I see your point that having the system I suggested above where users are allowed to oppose somewhat arbitrarily will probably lead to arguments on the nomination pages, and possibly topics failing needlessly. So maybe we need a subtler system, saying something along the lines that overlap is only acceptable if it seems natural, or is unavoidable, but phrased better than that, possibly to be more technical. And I certainly think we could agree on a hard and fast rule now that an overlap of one article is always acceptable - rst20xx ( talk) 00:45, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Just pointing this out, the Period 1 elements topic has a 33% overlap with the Noble gases topic. Rreagan007 ( talk) 14:39, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
In the elements topics, the groups and periods are each distinct fields of study. In the solar system, however, the dwarf planets are a subset of the Solar System. In the former there can be complete overlap, whereas in the later the only overlap you need is the Dwarf planet article with all of the dwarf planets themselves in the subtopic. I'm not sure how we can codify this as a rule. It would have to be something along the lines of "articles need not be in both a subtopic and a supertopic except for the lead article of the subtopic". -- Arctic Gnome ( talk • contribs) 16:24, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Okay, so does this mean consensus is generally to add the proposed 1.(e) at the top of this section? rst20xx ( talk) 14:34, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps everyone here would like to explain the pointless obsession of continually changing the FT criteria? Whenever I revisit this page, it seems the FT criteria is changing. Frankly, it's becoming a pathetic joke, and is making a potentially great process become gradually worthless. Above people have agreed that a topic needs 25% of its material featured, and with a proposal to change it to 33.3% in a few months. What next? 50%? 75%? A 100%? Really, get a grip. Raising that bar only affects topics where certain articles have a limit to the heights they can reach - not all articles can reach FA, or GA, so what happens to them? And there was me thinking the FT process was working wonderfully - how wrong I was. While I'm on the topic, are there any more pointless proposals editors wish to waste people's time with? LuciferMorgan ( talk) 18:16, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Featured topic criteria#Retention says:
Can The Simpsons WikiProject please get an extension on getting Wikipedia:Featured topics/The Simpsons (season 9) up to the required 20%? Wikipedia:Featured topics/The Simpsons (season 8) is most likely not doable without some sort of superhuman effort in the next few hours, but I think we will be able to get Season 9 up to par in a relatively short amount of time, perhaps another 2 months? Thank you for your consideration.
Cirt ( talk) 20:00, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
As far as I can tell, the only article that is being raised to FA status has failed twice, once a few day ago. Why do you believe that you can make it in two months? I am not trying to be difficult, I would just like an explanation before handing out an extension. Z gin der 2008-08-27T20:52Z ( UTC)
An FTRC isn't really needed, as we are only days away from opening the Good Topics page, at which time the Simpsons topics can move there until they are ready to come back. -- Arctic Gnome ( talk • contribs) 21:58, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Just to clarify for myself and I'm sure some others, the only difference between Featured and Good topics are the FA requirements, correct? Meaning a topic full of just GAs meets the GT requirements. The past month has been a bit blurry and I want to make sure before commenting at nominations. ( Guyinblack25 talk 20:49, 10 September 2008 (UTC))
Perhaps for the sake of clarity, we can put something on the criteria page something like Note: the only difference between a good topic and a featured topic is that criterion 3(a) only applies to featured topics. Rreagan007 ( talk) 21:59, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Please address any questions you have about how exactly good topics are implemented here - rst20xx ( talk) 02:38, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
I had a thought; if an approved existing Good Topic at some point gets enough FA's to justify being a Featured Topic, I think instead of having a re-nomination, we should just note it in the history of the topic and upgrade it without a comment period or a vote. It will have already gone through that to be a Good Topic, so it won't need re-discussion. Also, if a Featured Topic is removed for failing the Featured Topic criteria, but still meets the Good Topic criteria, it should also be seemlessly added to the Good Topics page and noted in the history. It will save a lot of pointless procedure that would otherwise take place. Judgesurreal777 ( talk) 23:20, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Um, we have a problem, especially with my 3 next Featured Topics. New York State Route 28N would end up being part of those 3 plus the current "State touring routes in Warren County, New York" topic. Is there a real problem with overlapping, because this is a big reason to oppose and is awfully ridiculous when there are highways that go into different counties. Is there a way to make an exception to this rule, because its awfully ridiculous to oppose solely on that.Mitch32( UP) 14:53, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Ok, now that all of Featured Topic criteria has been overhauled, and the Good Topics page is setup and running, (I expect it will be a huge success) I think we should talk about, as many have suggested, the idea of re-upping the criteria. You see, we upped it from 20% to 25%, but since the Simpsons topics were both shifted to Good Topics, the remaining featured topics were totally uneffected, so there has been no real qualitation improvement by upping the percentage. I think we should say that on October 1st, the criteria should be upped to 33% rounded up. It sounds large, but isn't. Here is what would happen;
I think raising the standards now that Good Topics are up and running is an excellent idea. I'd actually like to see it be raised to something like 50%, but I know that probably won't happen since there was opposition just getting it raised to 25%. Raising it to 33% at this time seems perfectly reasonable to me. Rreagan007 ( talk) 22:13, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Agree with raising in the long term, oppose for now. I think we should hold off until at least 2009 before raising yet again - rst20xx ( talk) 00:33, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure what does this mean. 24.01% or more? Admiral Norton ( talk) 21:00, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
Here's an idea - we could turn it on its head. 25% (rounded up) is equivalent to saying that if you multiply the number of featured articles by four, the result needs to be at least the total number of articles. So we could change the phrasing to "This must be at least one in four articles in the topic, or a minimum of two." - rst20xx ( talk) 16:45, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Well, wouldn't "at least 25%" suffice? It's much less obscure than the "rounded up" part. It's accurate in situations like 3 out of 10 (30%) or 4 out of 15 (about 27%) Admiral Norton ( talk) 17:44, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Ok well it looks to me like consensus is for making the change, so I am going to go ahead and change it (sorry I wasn't logged in when I made the change). But while we're all thinking about this I want to make another suggestion. Criterion 3.c addresses "items that are ineligible for featured or good article status" and says that "such items do not count towards criterion 1.a." I propose adding to that sentence so it will read, "Such items do not count towards criteria 1.a, 3.a, or 3.b." It is obviously current practice that audited articles do not count against 3.a.ii or 3.b, because if they did then any topic with an audited item would fail as a featured or good topic automatically, but this should still be codified in the criteria. And while I'm all for increasing the percentage of featured articles required, I think it would be unfair to have audited articles count against the required percentage of featured articles. This change would fix both problems. Rreagan007 ( talk) 16:51, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Does the A-class review done by individual WikiProjects (say the film review one) fulfill the requirements for a peer review in order for a page to be "audited"? The specific case I am referring to is lists that are not long enough to pass at FLC (which has a relative minimum of 10 items, subject to exceptions) and yet are long enough to exist as a stand-alone list; ergo, passing them at A-class review is the alternative to a run at FLC. sephiroth bcr ( converse) 07:36, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
I think some further clarification may be needed on the page. My interpretation, based on the way it is written, is that the idea of "gaps" is based on the fact that there are articles in existence that are connected to the topic, but are absent from the feature topic candidancy. The problem comes where I have seen people arguing that what 1D really means is that the "gap" is for when there are pages that DO NOT exist, but SHOULD exist. In this specific case, it would be episode articles for a television show topic. The problem with the latter argument is that it is assuming that all TV episodes are notable, when they aren't. If 15 episodes out of a 20 episode season fail WP:NOTE and WP:FICT, and any other relevant policies and guidelines that force them to not have their own articles, then that should not disqualify a topic from being featured if the ones that do meet Wikipedia's criteria for article creation are either Featured or Good Articles. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 05:13, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
I would like to propose a small change to how FTs are presented based on the Smallville FTR, specifically that when there is an obvious set of article topics that fall as immediate and obvious children of the topic (in this case, all episodes of S1 of Smallville), but these topics themselves cannot support an article due to other policies (notability the most likely one), then the FTC should include a listing of redirects and/or disambig entries that "fill out" the topic (eg episodes that cannot have their own article) with the redirects or disamb pointing to one of the other articles (ideally the main one, but not necessary) in the FTC. These redirects/disamb do not count towards or against the % of articles for other FT requirements, but do show that the topic is as comprehensive as possible, with the ability for use to actually search for each "obvious" entry in the topic.
I note when I say "immediate and obvious" there is some subjectivity to this. But, say, take the Kingdom Hearts FT, which has its "Characters" article. The immediate children of the KH topic is the games and the setting/character articles, however, I would argue that specific characters unique to the series, such as Sora, are not immediate children, and thus redirects/disambigs for all of these aren't necessary to include for the series topic; they would be if the Characters of KH were expanded to its own FT. Basically, this should be a requirement that is easy to fulfill if someone notes that there are gaps that cannot be filled but can be redirected, but it does help to show what the full intent of the topic is that the nominator had. -- MASEM 20:09, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
I am not sure if I understand this criteria. Does it mean that if an article went through a peer review, then it would automatically pass the individual quality audit? Or is there more to it?— Chris! c t 19:16, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, just to make clear, the audited clause is no way an alternative to getting an article to GA/FA/FL, it is solely intended for articles that can't get there due to either inherent shortness or inherent instability - rst20xx ( talk) 13:52, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
For the Guitar Hero series, one of the articles that needed to be improved ( List of songs in Guitar Hero World Tour) has now achieved FLC status, per the timing requirements. Should I be BOLD to update the topic and well as remove the indicators on this page for that, or does this need to go through a formal process? Again, this is not adding article, just moving the status of an article from previously being peer reviewed to FLC. -- MASEM 17:47, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
In a bit of unexpected news, Kingdom Hearts coded looks to have been given a limited release as a preinstalled game in a new model of phone in Japan. However, I have no reliable source to verify a release date. The only sourcing I've found are the phone's product page and the game's official website stating the model it's installed on. As far as release dates, all I've found are the company's product listing which state the phone is "on sale now", and the official website which states the phone is available in November 2008.
I'm assuming this all counts as an official release, however, I can't really find an official release date, which is needed to determine the retention period. The fansites started buzzing about all this last week and have been adding November 19th to the article. Should this be start of the retention period? ( Guyinblack25 talk 16:05, 25 November 2008 (UTC))
GameSpot has posted the release date (November 18, 2008). I've got no problem with the three month time frame starting from then. Plus I don't think a special exception should be made. If it gets delisted, then it's delisted. It became an FT once and it can do it again if need be. ( Guyinblack25 talk 15:24, 4 December 2008 (UTC))
I noticed in the descriptions of the difference between FT and GT, that 25% of the articles in them should be featured to gain FT. Does anyone think this is a bit too easy? What are peoples opinions on making it 33% or 50% instead? I've just got to planning a topic, and even if it all worked completely according to plan, it would have 3 GAs and 2 FL, and i wouldn't consider that to be inline with that "featured" should mean (ie. best of wikipedia). Even making it 50% would instead make this a GT until only one of the articles makes FA. Nb. A 33% threshold would affect 5 current FTs, with each needing one more FA.
The list of GTs is short compared to FTs. Increasing the criteria would balance the numbers more, and more accurately reflect the quality of the articles contained in the topics. Yes, no? I see that the discussions in the archives were beofre Good topics got established, and most of the arguemnts against were the unfiairness of delisting topics - these would now go to GT (which is still pretty darn good!). Yobmod ( talk) 10:25, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
I suggest that this page not be constantly edited for retentions so that we can better monitor the changes to the criteria. Z gin der 2008-12-06T19:15Z ( UTC)
I know this article was just peer reviewed, in order to stay out of retention, but couldn't this actually make FLC? It has 11 entries, after all (when it was promoted, it had 9) - rst20xx ( talk) 15:13, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
There's a discussion about this going on over here about this - rst20xx ( talk) 15:35, 23 December 2008 (UTC)