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After Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Casimir Pulaski/archive1, I have decided to stop submitting articles for FAC. This short entry makes it clear that the quality of an article is now secondary to bureaucratic rules about not the content, but editors. The FAC process is too bureaucratized, subject to an unfriendly process where the content creators have to jump hoops through permissions, requests, and such, wasting time by "asking for exceptions", and being told that we have to justify why we want to submit articles here, simply for the privilege to have an article listed in the FAC queue. As someone who has been active at FA-pages since 2005, through not much in the past few years, I find the current situation deeply disappointing. It looks to me like this process has evolved way past being friendly to the creators - if it is now friendly towards anyone, it is the delegates, and perhaps (through I am not sure about that), reviewers. As such, from the content creator perspective, being denied the right to submit an article here due to pointless bureaucratic rationale, after putting dozens of hours into it and not being given the tiny courtesy of having anything explained to me on my talk page (or even echoed), I refuse to play the bureaucratic game of bow-to-the-delegate-for-they-have-the-power, and beg them for an exception and permission to do what I feel should be the right of every experienced content creator (i.e. submit an article for a review) - instead I am withdrawing. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:29, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
It's disappointing but not entirely surprising to see that my complaint attracted, in addition to some constructive criticism, also the specters of straw man and personal attacks. I am not complaining here about my TK FAC (which I haven't event mentioned here so far) not passing; it is reasonable it failed when it did, and I have no criticism of the delegates action in this case. What I am complaining about is 1) the rule that prevents editors from nominating a new article after a previous nomination was closed, as I am not convinced that the argument about saving reviewers times hold merit 2) the way it is enforced, which I see as unfriendly and bureaucratized. With regard to 1), I could understand a limitation on editors who would spam FAC with numerous poor quality articles; seeing as this I submitted 2 FACs this year, separated by over two months, I don't believe I am overtaxing the FAC community with my requests; thus the rejection of my request cannot be justified on the spirit of the letter grounds, but only on the letter of it. Which leads me to my primary complain 2): I am disappointed that the delegates (or anyone else, for that matter), instead of offering help with the bureaucratic procedures related to my renomination, chose to fail it on technical reasons. Even through I indicated I would like to nominate a new article, saying so on a delegate's talk page, I was not notified of any response to my request, and once I have carried out my second nomination, it was quickfailed, an I was told I haven't properly asked for the permission to do so - i.e. I haven't filled the correct bureaucratic form in the correct bureaucratic language. This suggests to me that the enforcing the rules is more important than collaborating with others to improve the articles, and this is why I am disappointed with the current state of the FAC. My criticism of the process, and the delegates, is not because they failed to follow the rules - they did act according to them. My criticism is that the people involved in the process have lost the sight of the spirit of the rules, focusing on their letter. Repeating that the delegates did nothing wrong because they followed the rules is simply proving my point, and changing the topic by attacking my person is not making anyone's argument look better. Rather than bureaucratic covering of behind with the mantra "we acted according to letter of the rules", I have a hope that some people will reexamine their actions and attitudes and think how they should have acted "according to the spirit of the rules". -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:06, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
Hello, all,
I share Piotrus's frustration with the bureaucratization of the assessment process. There is no BE BOLD in the process; it is strictly "be timid". If a contributor decides to BE BOLD in response to a peculiar situation, s/he is condemning that article to be B Class or lower forever. Any variance from the assessment check list and its encrusted standards guarantees it.
Worst of all, the assessment process never takes notice of the most important aspect of hypertext—its links. So long as there are links that work, everything is fine for assessment. Never mind whether the links lead to consequential material that supplements the article being assessed, or not. And it matters not whether links are few or overabundant. The important things to assess in the present system are strict adherence to an academic mold copied from off-line research papers; there seems to be no adaptation to hypertext.
Georgejdorner ( talk) 17:19, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
(Sigh.) Once again, the standard incomprehension and lack of attention to my point.
Yes, the links are checked for duplication, etc. If they pass those checks, they are just fine, so far as assessors are concerned. The target page(s) may be only tangentially relevant (or even completely irrelevant) to the subject article; the link may be there for trivial purposes; important links may be non-existent; the article may lack links, or be overlinked. Nevertheless, the article passes assessment and is promoted.
Is a Featured Article full of misbegotten, trivial, and nonsensical links the best we can do? Shouldn't we be considering a better way of assesssing links? Or do we want to continue to ignore the major advantage hypertext has over paper, the hypertext link? Is slapping academic paper into hyperspace, as we are doing, any real improvement over a printed encylopedia?
Okay, this is the point at which I will be reproved by all because everything is already hunky-dory and bureaucratized. That's the "be timid" approach, and it has unfortunately come to characterize WP.
I will now bow my head to the incoming brickbats.
Georgejdorner ( talk) 23:15, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
Hello, again,
So there are basically three possible situations regarding link checks:
1. A conscientious reviewer like Ian runs down every link and verifies it. This is an excellent outcome, obviously, as the article is promoted with usable and relevant links that will further inform the reader.
2. A reviewer runs a spot check for dablinks and duplinks and says the links are okay; their relevance, etc. never comes into question. Some of the articles being promoted will inevitably have poor linkage.
3. Link checks are forgotten, ignored, or bypassed, and the article is promoted. Again, some promoted articles will be promoted with poor linkage.
So, given that two out of three outcomes are faulty, the solution is to dump all link checks for reviews on George because he has already done a few and noticed problems. (At least, I think that is what Sandy is recommending in the garbled "cheerleading" message above.)
Now I know why you withheld the brickbats. You had a load of compost to dump on me instead, for having the audacity to question the immaculately perfect assessment process. However, I am being treated better than last time I questioned the assessment process. That time, I was assured that if I changed my writing style, the contradictions between WP:MOS and the assessment process would magically disappear.
Why do I even bother?
Georgejdorner ( talk) 17:11, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
The above two comments (Rschen and Gerard) are pertinent, but they about a completely different issue, and ought to be in a different thread. Brianboulton ( talk) 08:22, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
The more esoteric the article, the slower it will get reviewers. Also, I suspect that some articles that obviously need copyediting will deter would-be reviewers, or ones with large FAC pages. Both of these give strength to the habit of getting articles reviewed and buffed as rigorously as possible, and responding to comments as quickly as possible, to get the best experience at FAC. Cas Liber ( talk · contribs) 08:53, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
And then there's the demise of the Dispatches, which was another thing the "leader" did and that sumbuddy needs to start doing again: Fewer reviewers in 2009. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 14:26, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
Few thoughts from me:
As a partial solution, I would encourage canvassing for FAC reviewers through posting on the talk pages of WikiProjects (many project members may not follow article alerts), and on talk pages of major contributors. Even this is unlikely to significantly improve the situation, which will not change unless we can reverse the trend in decrease in active editors across the entire project. If you want to improve the number of FAC reviewers, recruit more editors - it's as simple, and as difficult, as that. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:18, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
I brought OpenOffice.org here after three weeks unacknowledged on GA. Basically, pretty much nobody cares about GA and there are pretty much no reviewers. If you want to put it in as an extra hoop, this will certainly cut down the number of FACs ... - David Gerard ( talk) 12:57, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
The actual number of processed FA-nominations hasn't really dropped that much during the last few years. Assuming the FA-logs are almost complete, the last huge drops have been from 2008 to 2009 (1,328 nominations down to 991 nominations) and from 2010 to 2011 (925 nominations down to 665). Since 2011 the numbers have been somewhat stable around 650 (total promotions and archived noms). The 2013 numbers aren't complete, but point towards a similar sum. So the assertion, that the current handling with some relatively long nominations is slowing down the FAC-process isn't actually reflected in the numbers. But i agree in general, we should always look for possibilities to motivate new nominators and reviewers, i.e. doing more "advertising" (i like the idea of a new Signpost article) and helping inexperienced contributors with constructive advice. GermanJoe ( talk) 17:25, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
First, the historic changes in 2009 had specific reasons (big changes in the instructions and archiving processes), so comparing the drop that year with others results in apples and oranges. The drop from 2010 to 2011 was significant for reasons best left to the adage about knowing history and repeating it.
Second, looking at total number of nominations being processed does not tell the story of the process slowing down, and does not address the quality of those nominations. Total nominations may be the same, but the number of nominations passing (and quite often subpar) is considerably higher, while the length of time nominations are staying on the page is also higher, and I would wager that if one were to do the kind of analysis that Dr pda did in the 2009 dispatch, looking at the number of reviewers active on each FAC in 2013 compared to 2009, we would find a serious difference wrt the number of nominations now passing on scanty review.
If you want to update some stats, I suggest looking at WP:FAS and Wikipedia talk:Featured article statistics (one of those jobs that director and delegates used to do but that is no longer being done). (Specifically, Promote and archive stats, which hasn't been updated since 2011.) We have seen an increase in the number of promotions-- many of them based on only three supports and seriously deficient prose and sourcing-- and noms are staying on the page much longer than they did historically. A thorough analysis will bear out those facts. In 2008 and 2009, well prepared FACs routinely passed in five or six days, sometimes a week, after typically solid reviews. Only the rare and contentious FAC endured a month, and the FAC page size was maintained somewhere around 30 FACs at a time. Now we routinely see much longer FACs, and 60 FACs on the page at a time, with many sub-par FACs lingering on the page and eventually passing with a minimum of three supports (and the delegates frequently being badgered on talk to pass FACs with only three supports). SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:52, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
Ian, of course I know you do all of those things, and that you don't feel badgered by the now constant assumption that three supports = promotion doesn't mean we shouldn't take the opportunity to point out that it does not, and continue to encourage talk discussion of issues such as those (this page has become stagnant). Other than that, I might be misreading your post, but it comes across as if you're happy with the quality of review and of what is passing of late ? Also, yes, we cannot judge anything by FAR, because it is completely stagnant, suffering under even a worse reviewer shortage than here, with nominations there lasting four to six months routinely, when deficient FAs were historically demoted in one month. My rough estimate (based on the work I saw Dweller and others doing, and the number of deficient FAs I have seen come up at TFAR, and the number of geography FAs that are now completely outdated) is that we now have 25 to 33% of FAs in need of serious review. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 14:53, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
I can't speak for others, but from my perspective, FAC articles are too obscure, hardly ever any more about encyclopedic topics. They used to be seven years ago when I arrived on Wikipedia. The perennial subjects of encyclopedias, things that I see around me, dog, cat, rabbit, squirrel, chipmunk, turkey (bird), woodchuck, oak, elm, maple, pine, pen, pencil, book, ... all have longish articles, which could be turned in FAs, but people don't want to work on them. If they did I likely would review them, at least every now and then. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 04:07, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
much harder, and most people just won't attempt it - David Gerard ( talk) 08:10, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
Well, here's your chance.
As mentioned in this old Dispatch, in 2009 "nominators only" were up to 250% !! That trend has probably continued, and references the net "takers" in this process, where those who don't give as much as they take end up taxing the system and causing a page backlog.
The notion that those who work here tirelessly, day in and day out-- both reviewers and delegates-- are somehow here for "power" is bogus. It's a lot of hard work, the reviewers often end up pulling deficient articles through, and the delegates read through pages and pages every day, are glorified beancounters, often end up doing the work themselves, and they are rarely thanked. THEY give YOU the bronze star.
That is not only at FAC-- Nikki and Dana at FAR also work to preserve stars, and Bencherlite at TFAR sometimes has to rewrite deficient leads that get through here, while trying to satisfy everyone who wants or doesn't want their article on the mainpage.
It would be wonderful to see in here some thanks and praise for those who attempt to keep the process running. How 'bout telling them everything you appreciate about them just once, with no negative! I'll start with one only ('cuz I can tend towards excess in this department):
Positive reinforcement is good (and I practice what I preach). It may be a good idea for delegates to regularly issue thanks, or small awards, to active reviewers (like milhist does - they should be a model here), and for the said reviewers to thank the delegates in return.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:22, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
But my two bigger concerns lately are prose and sourcing (which are important!). If you don't feel confident to do a prose spotcheck for accuracy, copyvio, etc, just about anyone can run through the source list to discover the use of non-reliable sources like Youtube. @ Ealdgyth: used to check all sources on every FAC, and that is no longer being done, and we do now have FAs passing which use non-reliable sources. If anyone is interested in making that their specialty, I know Ealdgyth still has a subpage somewhere that explains what she used to check. Tony1 ( talk · contribs) used to do regular prose spotchecks, and it would be helpful if someone took that on even on a small scale (spotcheck), as we've had recent incidents of prose that wasn't fit for DYK; but received three supports; if someone with skills like Tony's does a minimal spotcheck, again, that is one less thing the delegates have to think about, and it doesn't require topic knowledge.
For anyone who wants to take on a smaller commitment, it was mentioned above that linking needs to be checked ( WP:OVERLINK, WP:MOSLINK, WP:RED). All of the issues in the Featured article toolbox on each FAC can also be checked by anyone. Making any small part of FA review into your specialty is what helps most, since the delegates can gain confidence in your work, and know that is one less thing they need to check. And for the ambitious, the same skills are needed at WP:FAR and can be transferred there (FAR is getting even less reviewer attention than here, and we now have a high percentage of old FAs that are no longer featured quality but are not being addressed) ... any reviewing skills you develop here can be put to use at FAR!
Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-04-07/Dispatches is old, but still a good read, explaining that anyone can start anywhere. Best regards, SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 14:41, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
Hello, all,
I make it a point to personally thank any reviewer who has done more than just check off the criteria for promotion. In practice, that means every reviewer above B Class, and a few of the latter.
I also make it a point to review a greater number of articles than I submit for review.
Now all I have to do is learn to never ever question the immutable perfected assessment process....
Georgejdorner ( talk) 17:25, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
All input welcomed at Wikipedia_talk:The_Core_Contest#Next_contest.3F..... Cas Liber ( talk · contribs) 02:21, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
The FAC for John Sherman closed a week ago, but the article history hasn't updated. Some other articles have the same problem. Does anyone know what's going on? I left a note on the bot's talk page, bt get no answer. -- Coemgenus ( talk) 12:55, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
Voxelbot never updated the talk page at Talk:2012–13 Michigan Wolverines men's basketball team. I think it would be wrong for me to perform the talk page portion of the FAC closure since I was the nominator. Can someone handle this.-- TonyTheTiger ( T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:35, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
From the responses, it seems everyone thinks people are now suppose to update T:AH for FAs without waiting for VoxelBot because the instructions not to update T:AH for FAs is only for the old bot, but with the new bot you are no longer suppose to wait. Is that correct or are the instructions to wait still valid. Second, if you want to pick a fight about FOUR, that should be held somewhere else. It is common sense that in any activity a person is not suppose to perform and activity as well as have primary responsibility for the review of that activity. If you don't understand that may you'd be interested in some Enron stock.-- TonyTheTiger ( T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:03, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
It is true that there are more steps to a full close (archiving the nomination page with the promoter's name and the date, and linking to the close; and adding the star) and for that reason only we discourage folks from messing with the talk page before the bot has been through.
— me (above), emphasis added
SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:11, 18 November 2013 (UTC)Second, no one gives a fuck about WP:FOUR. Resolute 20:01, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
According to WP:ACCESSIBILITY, we're supposed to support screen resolutions down to 1024×768. I'm not at 1024×768 but I'm at the functional equivalent because I can't read small text, and I came across a Featured List which was pretty badly formatted and hard to read at that resolution. Are you guys testing the lists at 1024×768? It'd only take a few seconds. I'd recommend adding a "Passed 1024×768" criteria to the Featured List test, if you don't have it already. Herostratus ( talk) 13:11, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
Some weeks ago on the FAC page I commented on, and eventually supported, the Samuel Merrill Woodbridge article. I was surprised to see that the FAC is still open, although there has been no comment on the review since 29 September, which rather suggests there will be nothing more forthcoming. The article has, I think, three supports, no opposes, and I don't think there are outstanding image or sources issues. Now, three supports may or may not be thought an adequate consensus to promote – that is not my concern – but six weeks' inactivity on the review seems rather long. I am unsure of any benefit in keeping an inactive review open this long, though there may of course be reasons I don't know about. There seems to be a general trend towards longer FACs; at present 16 of the 41 are more than four weeks old. There are actually two that are older than Woodbridge, but they have much more recent comment and discussion. Perhaps a delegate would care to comment? Brianboulton ( talk) 10:11, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
When I'm looking for an article to review, I find it irritating when the blurb doesn't tell me what the article is about, but just has a platitude like "it meets the FA criteria". I know I could follow the link, but when there are so many nominations, it's easier to move on.
For inexperienced nominators in particular, it's important to hook a reviewer. I blame the {{subst:FAC}} template which preloads I am nominating this for featured article because... , positively inviting the bland completion mentioned above.
I suggest we change the preformatted text to something like This article is about..., so that we get a couple of sentences telling us what joys are in store for us. I'm not bothered about the exact form of words, I just think this needs a look Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:02, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
Has this proposed change been made? (I, too, support it.) – Quadell ( talk) 14:30, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
Hello everyone. With increasing real life pressures taking their toll on the Signpost's "Featured content" writer, I'm looking for a few people to take up writing it. The bare minimum each week looks like this; the majority of your time would be spent writing the informative blurbs. Having multiple editors (drag a friend with you!) makes the process much shorter, and three or more could allow you to go out and interview some of Wikipedia's hard-working and underappreciated content creators. Would you like to take the plunge? Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 02:14, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
Feel free to use User:Quadell/draft. I'll let someone else do the lists and pictures. – Quadell ( talk) 16:07, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
If the coordinators for FAC don't mind, at Featured topics candidates, there has been a lack of activity which has put consensus on nominations nonexistent. This includes one nomination that has been on the page since August 30. So if anyone is interested in reviewing, it would be must appreciated. Thank you. GamerPro64 18:02, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
See AN for a discussion of editnotices on FAs. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 16:50, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
See Wikipedia_talk:Today's_featured_article#Is_it_time_to_revisit_the_protection_status_of_the_article_featured_on_the_main_page.3F. Cas Liber ( talk · contribs) 19:39, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
Hi all, as an alternative to pinging or leaving messages for the FAC coords individually, we now have the {{ @FAC}} template notification that pings them as a group. The FAC instructions have been updated accordingly. Let me know if any questions/problems. Cheers, Ian Rose ( talk) 03:10, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Sorry to be blunt, but this is becoming a pain in the arse. The bot hasn't run for ages and when it does there are constant problems wrt the wrong FAC coordinator listed as closing or the page archiving left incomplete. I sadly miss Gimmebot. Is it time to seek a new bot that can be relied on? Graham Colm ( talk) 17:51, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
I've just finished doing an extensive copy edit/peer review for Treblinka extermination camp, a FAC that was recently archived. Ian Rose, the relevant FAC coordinator, left the closing note at 22:00 on 15 December, but the bot didn't archive the nomination until the following day at 10:01. Poeticbent and I will be renominating the article (or at least he will, I believe) by the end of the year or shortly thereafter.
My question is this: for the two week waiting period for the article, do we start from 15 December or 16 December? That is, is the earliest it can be renominated 29 or 30 December? AmericanLemming ( talk) 20:05, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
Per discussion at WP:AN last month where consensus was that editnotices could be added to FAs, Casliber and I discussed adding text reflecting WP:OWN#Featured articles to medical FAs. In the case of medical articles, some wording about MEDRS and MEDMOS is also added. Sample:
Perhaps something can be done for all FAs. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 18:50, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
By the way, editnotices are templates that not everyone can edit, and Nikkimaria, Dana boomer and Maralia may want to remember to remove them if installed on an FA that is de-featured at WP:FAR. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 19:18, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
The wording seems to be nailed down, and I would like to install these on the rest of the medical FAs, but wonder if folks prefer:
To see them in action, it is helpful to go in to edit mode at Schizophrenia (the idea is for them to be noticeable, but not overly intrusive). SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 16:01, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
I completed editnotices on all the WP:FAs listed at the category "Health and medicine"; see User:SandyGeorgia/sandbox#Medical FA editnotice. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:23, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
Hi there; this is just a quick note to let you all know that the 2014 WikiCup will begin in January. The WikiCup is an annual competition to encourage high-quality contributions to Wikipedia by adding a little friendly competition to editing. At the time of writing, 106 users have signed up to take part in the competition; interested parties, no matter their level of experience or their editing interests, are warmly invited to sign up. Questions are welcome on the WikiCup talk page. Thanks! J Milburn ( talk) 20:39, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
Hello. I'm done with classes on Thursday, so I'm looking to review two or three FACs this weekend. I really only do prose reviews (though quite thorough ones, I might add), so I was wondering if there were one or two older FACs that need a copy-edit and/or a prose review. I'm already going to do a prose review for the 1924 Rose Bowl, the oldest outstanding FAC, but I wasn't sure which of the 20-some older FACs are most in need of a good close-read. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! AmericanLemming ( talk) 01:17, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
There are two short articles up for consideration, on silent films. How Brown Saw the Baseball Game and The Carpet from Bagdad. Those would probably not take too long. Beerest 2 talk 01:24, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
There has been a change of plans: I need to study organic chemistry over the next month, not spend hours reviewing FACs on Wikipedia. (Trust me, I would rather be doing the latter.) I sincerely apologize for the disappointment this will cause the nominators of these article as well as the FAC coordinators, but it is what it is. I thought I would be upfront about it (one of my pet peeves on Wikipedia is when people say they're going to do something and then do it a month later or not at all). AmericanLemming ( talk) 07:21, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
That question is being discussed at Wikipedia talk:Featured article criteria#Articles on notable subjects that are not eligible for featured status. Please weigh in on the discussion there. Imzadi 1979 → 18:58, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly it a "source review"? And while you're at it, what's an "image review"? I might get into source reviews and image reviews at some point, but I don't know what they are. AmericanLemming ( talk) 19:13, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
We're into the last 12 hours of 2013 down under so if I can't check in again before 2014, Happy New Year all, thanks for your contributions, and look forward to seeing you again very soon... :-) Cheers, Ian Rose ( talk) 02:23, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
After Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Casimir Pulaski/archive1, I have decided to stop submitting articles for FAC. This short entry makes it clear that the quality of an article is now secondary to bureaucratic rules about not the content, but editors. The FAC process is too bureaucratized, subject to an unfriendly process where the content creators have to jump hoops through permissions, requests, and such, wasting time by "asking for exceptions", and being told that we have to justify why we want to submit articles here, simply for the privilege to have an article listed in the FAC queue. As someone who has been active at FA-pages since 2005, through not much in the past few years, I find the current situation deeply disappointing. It looks to me like this process has evolved way past being friendly to the creators - if it is now friendly towards anyone, it is the delegates, and perhaps (through I am not sure about that), reviewers. As such, from the content creator perspective, being denied the right to submit an article here due to pointless bureaucratic rationale, after putting dozens of hours into it and not being given the tiny courtesy of having anything explained to me on my talk page (or even echoed), I refuse to play the bureaucratic game of bow-to-the-delegate-for-they-have-the-power, and beg them for an exception and permission to do what I feel should be the right of every experienced content creator (i.e. submit an article for a review) - instead I am withdrawing. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:29, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
It's disappointing but not entirely surprising to see that my complaint attracted, in addition to some constructive criticism, also the specters of straw man and personal attacks. I am not complaining here about my TK FAC (which I haven't event mentioned here so far) not passing; it is reasonable it failed when it did, and I have no criticism of the delegates action in this case. What I am complaining about is 1) the rule that prevents editors from nominating a new article after a previous nomination was closed, as I am not convinced that the argument about saving reviewers times hold merit 2) the way it is enforced, which I see as unfriendly and bureaucratized. With regard to 1), I could understand a limitation on editors who would spam FAC with numerous poor quality articles; seeing as this I submitted 2 FACs this year, separated by over two months, I don't believe I am overtaxing the FAC community with my requests; thus the rejection of my request cannot be justified on the spirit of the letter grounds, but only on the letter of it. Which leads me to my primary complain 2): I am disappointed that the delegates (or anyone else, for that matter), instead of offering help with the bureaucratic procedures related to my renomination, chose to fail it on technical reasons. Even through I indicated I would like to nominate a new article, saying so on a delegate's talk page, I was not notified of any response to my request, and once I have carried out my second nomination, it was quickfailed, an I was told I haven't properly asked for the permission to do so - i.e. I haven't filled the correct bureaucratic form in the correct bureaucratic language. This suggests to me that the enforcing the rules is more important than collaborating with others to improve the articles, and this is why I am disappointed with the current state of the FAC. My criticism of the process, and the delegates, is not because they failed to follow the rules - they did act according to them. My criticism is that the people involved in the process have lost the sight of the spirit of the rules, focusing on their letter. Repeating that the delegates did nothing wrong because they followed the rules is simply proving my point, and changing the topic by attacking my person is not making anyone's argument look better. Rather than bureaucratic covering of behind with the mantra "we acted according to letter of the rules", I have a hope that some people will reexamine their actions and attitudes and think how they should have acted "according to the spirit of the rules". -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:06, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
Hello, all,
I share Piotrus's frustration with the bureaucratization of the assessment process. There is no BE BOLD in the process; it is strictly "be timid". If a contributor decides to BE BOLD in response to a peculiar situation, s/he is condemning that article to be B Class or lower forever. Any variance from the assessment check list and its encrusted standards guarantees it.
Worst of all, the assessment process never takes notice of the most important aspect of hypertext—its links. So long as there are links that work, everything is fine for assessment. Never mind whether the links lead to consequential material that supplements the article being assessed, or not. And it matters not whether links are few or overabundant. The important things to assess in the present system are strict adherence to an academic mold copied from off-line research papers; there seems to be no adaptation to hypertext.
Georgejdorner ( talk) 17:19, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
(Sigh.) Once again, the standard incomprehension and lack of attention to my point.
Yes, the links are checked for duplication, etc. If they pass those checks, they are just fine, so far as assessors are concerned. The target page(s) may be only tangentially relevant (or even completely irrelevant) to the subject article; the link may be there for trivial purposes; important links may be non-existent; the article may lack links, or be overlinked. Nevertheless, the article passes assessment and is promoted.
Is a Featured Article full of misbegotten, trivial, and nonsensical links the best we can do? Shouldn't we be considering a better way of assesssing links? Or do we want to continue to ignore the major advantage hypertext has over paper, the hypertext link? Is slapping academic paper into hyperspace, as we are doing, any real improvement over a printed encylopedia?
Okay, this is the point at which I will be reproved by all because everything is already hunky-dory and bureaucratized. That's the "be timid" approach, and it has unfortunately come to characterize WP.
I will now bow my head to the incoming brickbats.
Georgejdorner ( talk) 23:15, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
Hello, again,
So there are basically three possible situations regarding link checks:
1. A conscientious reviewer like Ian runs down every link and verifies it. This is an excellent outcome, obviously, as the article is promoted with usable and relevant links that will further inform the reader.
2. A reviewer runs a spot check for dablinks and duplinks and says the links are okay; their relevance, etc. never comes into question. Some of the articles being promoted will inevitably have poor linkage.
3. Link checks are forgotten, ignored, or bypassed, and the article is promoted. Again, some promoted articles will be promoted with poor linkage.
So, given that two out of three outcomes are faulty, the solution is to dump all link checks for reviews on George because he has already done a few and noticed problems. (At least, I think that is what Sandy is recommending in the garbled "cheerleading" message above.)
Now I know why you withheld the brickbats. You had a load of compost to dump on me instead, for having the audacity to question the immaculately perfect assessment process. However, I am being treated better than last time I questioned the assessment process. That time, I was assured that if I changed my writing style, the contradictions between WP:MOS and the assessment process would magically disappear.
Why do I even bother?
Georgejdorner ( talk) 17:11, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
The above two comments (Rschen and Gerard) are pertinent, but they about a completely different issue, and ought to be in a different thread. Brianboulton ( talk) 08:22, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
The more esoteric the article, the slower it will get reviewers. Also, I suspect that some articles that obviously need copyediting will deter would-be reviewers, or ones with large FAC pages. Both of these give strength to the habit of getting articles reviewed and buffed as rigorously as possible, and responding to comments as quickly as possible, to get the best experience at FAC. Cas Liber ( talk · contribs) 08:53, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
And then there's the demise of the Dispatches, which was another thing the "leader" did and that sumbuddy needs to start doing again: Fewer reviewers in 2009. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 14:26, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
Few thoughts from me:
As a partial solution, I would encourage canvassing for FAC reviewers through posting on the talk pages of WikiProjects (many project members may not follow article alerts), and on talk pages of major contributors. Even this is unlikely to significantly improve the situation, which will not change unless we can reverse the trend in decrease in active editors across the entire project. If you want to improve the number of FAC reviewers, recruit more editors - it's as simple, and as difficult, as that. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:18, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
I brought OpenOffice.org here after three weeks unacknowledged on GA. Basically, pretty much nobody cares about GA and there are pretty much no reviewers. If you want to put it in as an extra hoop, this will certainly cut down the number of FACs ... - David Gerard ( talk) 12:57, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
The actual number of processed FA-nominations hasn't really dropped that much during the last few years. Assuming the FA-logs are almost complete, the last huge drops have been from 2008 to 2009 (1,328 nominations down to 991 nominations) and from 2010 to 2011 (925 nominations down to 665). Since 2011 the numbers have been somewhat stable around 650 (total promotions and archived noms). The 2013 numbers aren't complete, but point towards a similar sum. So the assertion, that the current handling with some relatively long nominations is slowing down the FAC-process isn't actually reflected in the numbers. But i agree in general, we should always look for possibilities to motivate new nominators and reviewers, i.e. doing more "advertising" (i like the idea of a new Signpost article) and helping inexperienced contributors with constructive advice. GermanJoe ( talk) 17:25, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
First, the historic changes in 2009 had specific reasons (big changes in the instructions and archiving processes), so comparing the drop that year with others results in apples and oranges. The drop from 2010 to 2011 was significant for reasons best left to the adage about knowing history and repeating it.
Second, looking at total number of nominations being processed does not tell the story of the process slowing down, and does not address the quality of those nominations. Total nominations may be the same, but the number of nominations passing (and quite often subpar) is considerably higher, while the length of time nominations are staying on the page is also higher, and I would wager that if one were to do the kind of analysis that Dr pda did in the 2009 dispatch, looking at the number of reviewers active on each FAC in 2013 compared to 2009, we would find a serious difference wrt the number of nominations now passing on scanty review.
If you want to update some stats, I suggest looking at WP:FAS and Wikipedia talk:Featured article statistics (one of those jobs that director and delegates used to do but that is no longer being done). (Specifically, Promote and archive stats, which hasn't been updated since 2011.) We have seen an increase in the number of promotions-- many of them based on only three supports and seriously deficient prose and sourcing-- and noms are staying on the page much longer than they did historically. A thorough analysis will bear out those facts. In 2008 and 2009, well prepared FACs routinely passed in five or six days, sometimes a week, after typically solid reviews. Only the rare and contentious FAC endured a month, and the FAC page size was maintained somewhere around 30 FACs at a time. Now we routinely see much longer FACs, and 60 FACs on the page at a time, with many sub-par FACs lingering on the page and eventually passing with a minimum of three supports (and the delegates frequently being badgered on talk to pass FACs with only three supports). SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:52, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
Ian, of course I know you do all of those things, and that you don't feel badgered by the now constant assumption that three supports = promotion doesn't mean we shouldn't take the opportunity to point out that it does not, and continue to encourage talk discussion of issues such as those (this page has become stagnant). Other than that, I might be misreading your post, but it comes across as if you're happy with the quality of review and of what is passing of late ? Also, yes, we cannot judge anything by FAR, because it is completely stagnant, suffering under even a worse reviewer shortage than here, with nominations there lasting four to six months routinely, when deficient FAs were historically demoted in one month. My rough estimate (based on the work I saw Dweller and others doing, and the number of deficient FAs I have seen come up at TFAR, and the number of geography FAs that are now completely outdated) is that we now have 25 to 33% of FAs in need of serious review. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 14:53, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
I can't speak for others, but from my perspective, FAC articles are too obscure, hardly ever any more about encyclopedic topics. They used to be seven years ago when I arrived on Wikipedia. The perennial subjects of encyclopedias, things that I see around me, dog, cat, rabbit, squirrel, chipmunk, turkey (bird), woodchuck, oak, elm, maple, pine, pen, pencil, book, ... all have longish articles, which could be turned in FAs, but people don't want to work on them. If they did I likely would review them, at least every now and then. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 04:07, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
much harder, and most people just won't attempt it - David Gerard ( talk) 08:10, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
Well, here's your chance.
As mentioned in this old Dispatch, in 2009 "nominators only" were up to 250% !! That trend has probably continued, and references the net "takers" in this process, where those who don't give as much as they take end up taxing the system and causing a page backlog.
The notion that those who work here tirelessly, day in and day out-- both reviewers and delegates-- are somehow here for "power" is bogus. It's a lot of hard work, the reviewers often end up pulling deficient articles through, and the delegates read through pages and pages every day, are glorified beancounters, often end up doing the work themselves, and they are rarely thanked. THEY give YOU the bronze star.
That is not only at FAC-- Nikki and Dana at FAR also work to preserve stars, and Bencherlite at TFAR sometimes has to rewrite deficient leads that get through here, while trying to satisfy everyone who wants or doesn't want their article on the mainpage.
It would be wonderful to see in here some thanks and praise for those who attempt to keep the process running. How 'bout telling them everything you appreciate about them just once, with no negative! I'll start with one only ('cuz I can tend towards excess in this department):
Positive reinforcement is good (and I practice what I preach). It may be a good idea for delegates to regularly issue thanks, or small awards, to active reviewers (like milhist does - they should be a model here), and for the said reviewers to thank the delegates in return.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:22, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
But my two bigger concerns lately are prose and sourcing (which are important!). If you don't feel confident to do a prose spotcheck for accuracy, copyvio, etc, just about anyone can run through the source list to discover the use of non-reliable sources like Youtube. @ Ealdgyth: used to check all sources on every FAC, and that is no longer being done, and we do now have FAs passing which use non-reliable sources. If anyone is interested in making that their specialty, I know Ealdgyth still has a subpage somewhere that explains what she used to check. Tony1 ( talk · contribs) used to do regular prose spotchecks, and it would be helpful if someone took that on even on a small scale (spotcheck), as we've had recent incidents of prose that wasn't fit for DYK; but received three supports; if someone with skills like Tony's does a minimal spotcheck, again, that is one less thing the delegates have to think about, and it doesn't require topic knowledge.
For anyone who wants to take on a smaller commitment, it was mentioned above that linking needs to be checked ( WP:OVERLINK, WP:MOSLINK, WP:RED). All of the issues in the Featured article toolbox on each FAC can also be checked by anyone. Making any small part of FA review into your specialty is what helps most, since the delegates can gain confidence in your work, and know that is one less thing they need to check. And for the ambitious, the same skills are needed at WP:FAR and can be transferred there (FAR is getting even less reviewer attention than here, and we now have a high percentage of old FAs that are no longer featured quality but are not being addressed) ... any reviewing skills you develop here can be put to use at FAR!
Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-04-07/Dispatches is old, but still a good read, explaining that anyone can start anywhere. Best regards, SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 14:41, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
Hello, all,
I make it a point to personally thank any reviewer who has done more than just check off the criteria for promotion. In practice, that means every reviewer above B Class, and a few of the latter.
I also make it a point to review a greater number of articles than I submit for review.
Now all I have to do is learn to never ever question the immutable perfected assessment process....
Georgejdorner ( talk) 17:25, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
All input welcomed at Wikipedia_talk:The_Core_Contest#Next_contest.3F..... Cas Liber ( talk · contribs) 02:21, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
The FAC for John Sherman closed a week ago, but the article history hasn't updated. Some other articles have the same problem. Does anyone know what's going on? I left a note on the bot's talk page, bt get no answer. -- Coemgenus ( talk) 12:55, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
Voxelbot never updated the talk page at Talk:2012–13 Michigan Wolverines men's basketball team. I think it would be wrong for me to perform the talk page portion of the FAC closure since I was the nominator. Can someone handle this.-- TonyTheTiger ( T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:35, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
From the responses, it seems everyone thinks people are now suppose to update T:AH for FAs without waiting for VoxelBot because the instructions not to update T:AH for FAs is only for the old bot, but with the new bot you are no longer suppose to wait. Is that correct or are the instructions to wait still valid. Second, if you want to pick a fight about FOUR, that should be held somewhere else. It is common sense that in any activity a person is not suppose to perform and activity as well as have primary responsibility for the review of that activity. If you don't understand that may you'd be interested in some Enron stock.-- TonyTheTiger ( T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:03, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
It is true that there are more steps to a full close (archiving the nomination page with the promoter's name and the date, and linking to the close; and adding the star) and for that reason only we discourage folks from messing with the talk page before the bot has been through.
— me (above), emphasis added
SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:11, 18 November 2013 (UTC)Second, no one gives a fuck about WP:FOUR. Resolute 20:01, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
According to WP:ACCESSIBILITY, we're supposed to support screen resolutions down to 1024×768. I'm not at 1024×768 but I'm at the functional equivalent because I can't read small text, and I came across a Featured List which was pretty badly formatted and hard to read at that resolution. Are you guys testing the lists at 1024×768? It'd only take a few seconds. I'd recommend adding a "Passed 1024×768" criteria to the Featured List test, if you don't have it already. Herostratus ( talk) 13:11, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
Some weeks ago on the FAC page I commented on, and eventually supported, the Samuel Merrill Woodbridge article. I was surprised to see that the FAC is still open, although there has been no comment on the review since 29 September, which rather suggests there will be nothing more forthcoming. The article has, I think, three supports, no opposes, and I don't think there are outstanding image or sources issues. Now, three supports may or may not be thought an adequate consensus to promote – that is not my concern – but six weeks' inactivity on the review seems rather long. I am unsure of any benefit in keeping an inactive review open this long, though there may of course be reasons I don't know about. There seems to be a general trend towards longer FACs; at present 16 of the 41 are more than four weeks old. There are actually two that are older than Woodbridge, but they have much more recent comment and discussion. Perhaps a delegate would care to comment? Brianboulton ( talk) 10:11, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
When I'm looking for an article to review, I find it irritating when the blurb doesn't tell me what the article is about, but just has a platitude like "it meets the FA criteria". I know I could follow the link, but when there are so many nominations, it's easier to move on.
For inexperienced nominators in particular, it's important to hook a reviewer. I blame the {{subst:FAC}} template which preloads I am nominating this for featured article because... , positively inviting the bland completion mentioned above.
I suggest we change the preformatted text to something like This article is about..., so that we get a couple of sentences telling us what joys are in store for us. I'm not bothered about the exact form of words, I just think this needs a look Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:02, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
Has this proposed change been made? (I, too, support it.) – Quadell ( talk) 14:30, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
Hello everyone. With increasing real life pressures taking their toll on the Signpost's "Featured content" writer, I'm looking for a few people to take up writing it. The bare minimum each week looks like this; the majority of your time would be spent writing the informative blurbs. Having multiple editors (drag a friend with you!) makes the process much shorter, and three or more could allow you to go out and interview some of Wikipedia's hard-working and underappreciated content creators. Would you like to take the plunge? Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 02:14, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
Feel free to use User:Quadell/draft. I'll let someone else do the lists and pictures. – Quadell ( talk) 16:07, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
If the coordinators for FAC don't mind, at Featured topics candidates, there has been a lack of activity which has put consensus on nominations nonexistent. This includes one nomination that has been on the page since August 30. So if anyone is interested in reviewing, it would be must appreciated. Thank you. GamerPro64 18:02, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
See AN for a discussion of editnotices on FAs. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 16:50, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
See Wikipedia_talk:Today's_featured_article#Is_it_time_to_revisit_the_protection_status_of_the_article_featured_on_the_main_page.3F. Cas Liber ( talk · contribs) 19:39, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
Hi all, as an alternative to pinging or leaving messages for the FAC coords individually, we now have the {{ @FAC}} template notification that pings them as a group. The FAC instructions have been updated accordingly. Let me know if any questions/problems. Cheers, Ian Rose ( talk) 03:10, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Sorry to be blunt, but this is becoming a pain in the arse. The bot hasn't run for ages and when it does there are constant problems wrt the wrong FAC coordinator listed as closing or the page archiving left incomplete. I sadly miss Gimmebot. Is it time to seek a new bot that can be relied on? Graham Colm ( talk) 17:51, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
I've just finished doing an extensive copy edit/peer review for Treblinka extermination camp, a FAC that was recently archived. Ian Rose, the relevant FAC coordinator, left the closing note at 22:00 on 15 December, but the bot didn't archive the nomination until the following day at 10:01. Poeticbent and I will be renominating the article (or at least he will, I believe) by the end of the year or shortly thereafter.
My question is this: for the two week waiting period for the article, do we start from 15 December or 16 December? That is, is the earliest it can be renominated 29 or 30 December? AmericanLemming ( talk) 20:05, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
Per discussion at WP:AN last month where consensus was that editnotices could be added to FAs, Casliber and I discussed adding text reflecting WP:OWN#Featured articles to medical FAs. In the case of medical articles, some wording about MEDRS and MEDMOS is also added. Sample:
Perhaps something can be done for all FAs. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 18:50, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
By the way, editnotices are templates that not everyone can edit, and Nikkimaria, Dana boomer and Maralia may want to remember to remove them if installed on an FA that is de-featured at WP:FAR. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 19:18, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
The wording seems to be nailed down, and I would like to install these on the rest of the medical FAs, but wonder if folks prefer:
To see them in action, it is helpful to go in to edit mode at Schizophrenia (the idea is for them to be noticeable, but not overly intrusive). SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 16:01, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
I completed editnotices on all the WP:FAs listed at the category "Health and medicine"; see User:SandyGeorgia/sandbox#Medical FA editnotice. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:23, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
Hi there; this is just a quick note to let you all know that the 2014 WikiCup will begin in January. The WikiCup is an annual competition to encourage high-quality contributions to Wikipedia by adding a little friendly competition to editing. At the time of writing, 106 users have signed up to take part in the competition; interested parties, no matter their level of experience or their editing interests, are warmly invited to sign up. Questions are welcome on the WikiCup talk page. Thanks! J Milburn ( talk) 20:39, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
Hello. I'm done with classes on Thursday, so I'm looking to review two or three FACs this weekend. I really only do prose reviews (though quite thorough ones, I might add), so I was wondering if there were one or two older FACs that need a copy-edit and/or a prose review. I'm already going to do a prose review for the 1924 Rose Bowl, the oldest outstanding FAC, but I wasn't sure which of the 20-some older FACs are most in need of a good close-read. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! AmericanLemming ( talk) 01:17, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
There are two short articles up for consideration, on silent films. How Brown Saw the Baseball Game and The Carpet from Bagdad. Those would probably not take too long. Beerest 2 talk 01:24, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
There has been a change of plans: I need to study organic chemistry over the next month, not spend hours reviewing FACs on Wikipedia. (Trust me, I would rather be doing the latter.) I sincerely apologize for the disappointment this will cause the nominators of these article as well as the FAC coordinators, but it is what it is. I thought I would be upfront about it (one of my pet peeves on Wikipedia is when people say they're going to do something and then do it a month later or not at all). AmericanLemming ( talk) 07:21, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
That question is being discussed at Wikipedia talk:Featured article criteria#Articles on notable subjects that are not eligible for featured status. Please weigh in on the discussion there. Imzadi 1979 → 18:58, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly it a "source review"? And while you're at it, what's an "image review"? I might get into source reviews and image reviews at some point, but I don't know what they are. AmericanLemming ( talk) 19:13, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
We're into the last 12 hours of 2013 down under so if I can't check in again before 2014, Happy New Year all, thanks for your contributions, and look forward to seeing you again very soon... :-) Cheers, Ian Rose ( talk) 02:23, 31 December 2013 (UTC)