This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 40 | ← | Archive 43 | Archive 44 | Archive 45 | Archive 46 | Archive 47 | → | Archive 50 |
Hello, I'm very new to Wikipedia, and I'm trying to follow WP:BOLD by writing here. As I understand it the process for choosing admins when a panel is required for a controversial AfD closure is that a concerned user lists the AfD as controversial on the Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard, then the first 3 uninvolved admins to come along put their hands up for the panel (then go off and follow standard operating procedure on the AfD). It occurs to me that this leaves room for gaming the system. Namely that a biased user involved in the AfD (whose made friends with a couple of admins) might come along and message those admins (via whatever means necessary) to let them know the notice is going up (and hence let them put their hands up the quickest), allowing the panel to be rigged. I wouldn't cast any aspersions on Wikipedia's admin approval process (or on WP:UNINVOLVED, but I do accept that everyone is human and that humans can have strong views on controversial subjects (and that those views are sometimes apparent in edits/discussions). I was just looking for there to be some discussion on other possible methods of selection (perhaps a minimum number of admins putting their hands up, then the selection being randomized algorithmically?). It just seems like that would put another (better) layer on the swiss cheese model - and a layer that might be needed considering panels tend to result from already controversial/publicity prone subjects. Thank you for your time, and if I've put this in the wrong place, feel free to delete it and let me know what I'm doing wrong. -- Jobrot ( talk) 03:05, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
The purpose of this phrase is lost to me:
If nobody opposes deletion, then an article is to be deleted, BLP or not. What is the purpose of this extra rule? I.e., which hole does it cover? Staszek Lem ( talk) 22:28, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
A few years ago my wife started an article on Calton weavers which was speedily deleted. She started again, but it soured her on Wikipedia. Today she pointed out a Huffington Post article that discussed a speedy deletion nomination for Natalie Smith Henry submitted one minute after the article was first saved. The incident was also picked up by the New York Times and the BBC in discussions on why there are so few women editors. If a new editor's first experience with WP is a speedy deletion nomination, we are likely to lose them even if the nomination is rejected. If potential new editors hear WP is a hostile place, they may never consider contributing. The publicity about the Natalie Smith Henry nomination may have caused significant and lasting damage.
Some new articles must be deleted fast because they are clear copyright violations, vicious personal attacks and so on. But if an article by a new editor is harmless there is no urgency to delete. There is no reason for a huge, angry pink notice that seems to tell the new editor they have committed a crime. There should be a process to politely tell the editor that there are issues with the article, explain what they are, and offer to help. If nothing happens for a week, then the article can be deleted. Once the new process, let's call it Newby help, is in place, editors who repeatedly submit speedy or proposed deletion nominations for harmless articles by new editors should be subject to admin action. The potential losses greatly outweigh the benefits. Comments? Aymatth2 ( talk) 18:02, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
Scenario. The "Apsley Eagles" are a successful amateur sports team that merits a Wikipedia article. A high school teacher gives her class an assignment to write a Wikipedia article on the team. An enthusiastic student registers for a userid, then starts a first version of the article that reads, in its entirety, "The Apsely Eagles are the best team in the state." Two minutes later the article is nominated for speedy deletion. The class sees the huge pink warning message. While they are discussing it, the article is deleted. 30 potential editors are lost.
I am thinking of three templates. The first, for harmless new articles that may evolve into something useful but perhaps lack sourcing or evidence of notability, would be something like:
The second template, for insertion on the new article's talk page, would be a basic introduction to the idea of notability and how to write an article. The third, for the talk page of editors who repeatedly flag harmless articles for speedy deletion using the standard angry pink notice, would be something like:
If you persist in nominating harmless new articles for deletion you may be banned from editing. Thanks, and have a nice day.
Is it practical to implement a change in process like this? Aymatth2 ( talk) 15:34, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
All--I put together a first draft of an essay Wikipedia:Wikipedia does or does not need that article and welcome feedback/discussion/utter destruction at that essay's page.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 20:16, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
Why did you speedy delete instead of edit my page!! How can I get it back so I can begin editing???
HMGMR ( talk) 13:31, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
I propose that we either change the policy or clarify the wording regarding how users contest a speedy deletion. The current policy as it is worded only forbids the article creator from removing a speedy deletion tag, any other user can remove the speedy deletion tag in order to contest the speedy deletion. However, many times the article creator will simply log out and remove the tag or create a new account to remove the tag in an attempt to bypass this guideline. Many new page/recent changes patrollers already revert these "unexplained" removals of speedy deletion tags as disruptive. I would like to see the policy changed to state that any editor removing a speedy deletion tag, must also provide a reasoning for the removal in the edit summary (or talk page), otherwise it is considered disruptive and may be reverted. As I stated, many editors already practice this anyways as a matter of common sense. It's silly to allow article creators to simply contest a speedy deletion by logging out, and they clearly are not acting in good faith. It would waste time to have to take many of these articles to AfD. Experienced editors who contest speedy deletions normally leave an explanatory edit summary anyhow, so I don't see this change as being controversial, or that it adds undue weight to the deletion process. Thanks. - War wizard90 ( talk) 05:49, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
Sandstein undid my clarification about renomination: [1]. I don't particularly care about article vs page (I thought article was preferred) but the point is, this wording confuses some people. They see "page is kept" and think that refers to any page that is not deleted. I have twice been accused of being disruptive because I renominated for deletion an article that had previously been AfD and was closed as no consensus. Their argument was that the page was kept because it was not deleted, therefore, I should have waited before renominating it. One person accused me of being disruptive, demanded I withdraw the AfD and then reported me at ANI - multiple admins replied and explained why this was not disruptive, as did the closing admin on the AfD. (see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive888#Disruptive renomination at AfD and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Brian Armstrong (diver) (2nd nomination). This happened again recently - obviously this needs to be clarified. In this part about renomination, it should clearly say, "Page closed as keep" instead of "page is kept" as apparently people think "kept" is not the AfD keep but any circumstance where it is not deleted. —Мандичка YO 😜 12:03, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
Should an old deletion discussion be valid for all future, or is it possible to start to redevelop an article later on? Sure, in the case of Minneapolis Bandolier it has been only a little over a year since the discussion, but still, can't a discussion ever be considered to be outdated? Should it always lay a dead hand over the development of articles? Dammråtta ( talk) 23:02, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
An RfC has been opened to see if WP:NOTFAQ and WP:NOTHOWTO should or should not apply to redirects. For the discussion, see WT:NOT#RfC: Should we add a footnote to WP:NOTHOWTO/WP:NOTFAQ stating that it does not apply to redirects? -- 67.70.32.190 ( talk) 04:55, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
{{ recap}} is nominated for deletion. This is an ancillary deletion template for processing long deletion discussions -- 70.51.202.113 ( talk) 04:47, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
This is so open ended to be meaningless and is a deletionist gift from heaven. For example one editor claims that because an article contained some promotional content, the entire article should be deleted since it is "not suitable for an encyclopedia". This is not an isolated incident, this editor claims this rational has been used "thousands" of times at AfD. -- Green C 22:52, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
"Delete and redirect" should only be used when an article contains copyright violations or contains libelous statements about a living person. Deleting an article history to prevent it from being recreated in the future is not a valid reason for deleting the article history.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
"Delete and redirect" should only be used if every revision in the history of the page satisfies the criteria for revision deletion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I propose adding
:Help for editors new to deletion discussions can be found at Wikipedia:Guide to deletion#Discussion and Wikipedia:Guide to deletion#Recommendations and outcomes.
which displays as
to the top of all newly-created XfDs.
I've updated Template:Afd2/sandbox and Template:Afd2/testcases to demonstrate this.
Among other things, this will point to documentation that says exactly what "redirect" means, avoiding the confusion that sometimes happens at XfD or Deletion Review. Sidebar: For the past few years, that page has said that "Redirect" implies "Redirect and keep" but if the discussion immediately above this one changes things, then that document will need to be updated).
If there is an affirmative consensus to make the change or if there are no objections within a week then I'll make the "edit request" in a week or so. If a consensus becomes obvious sooner, I will make the edit request sooner (personally, I think this is a "no brainer" but I've been wrong about "no brainers" before). davidwr/( talk)/( contribs) 17:28, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 40 | ← | Archive 43 | Archive 44 | Archive 45 | Archive 46 | Archive 47 | → | Archive 50 |
Hello, I'm very new to Wikipedia, and I'm trying to follow WP:BOLD by writing here. As I understand it the process for choosing admins when a panel is required for a controversial AfD closure is that a concerned user lists the AfD as controversial on the Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard, then the first 3 uninvolved admins to come along put their hands up for the panel (then go off and follow standard operating procedure on the AfD). It occurs to me that this leaves room for gaming the system. Namely that a biased user involved in the AfD (whose made friends with a couple of admins) might come along and message those admins (via whatever means necessary) to let them know the notice is going up (and hence let them put their hands up the quickest), allowing the panel to be rigged. I wouldn't cast any aspersions on Wikipedia's admin approval process (or on WP:UNINVOLVED, but I do accept that everyone is human and that humans can have strong views on controversial subjects (and that those views are sometimes apparent in edits/discussions). I was just looking for there to be some discussion on other possible methods of selection (perhaps a minimum number of admins putting their hands up, then the selection being randomized algorithmically?). It just seems like that would put another (better) layer on the swiss cheese model - and a layer that might be needed considering panels tend to result from already controversial/publicity prone subjects. Thank you for your time, and if I've put this in the wrong place, feel free to delete it and let me know what I'm doing wrong. -- Jobrot ( talk) 03:05, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
The purpose of this phrase is lost to me:
If nobody opposes deletion, then an article is to be deleted, BLP or not. What is the purpose of this extra rule? I.e., which hole does it cover? Staszek Lem ( talk) 22:28, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
A few years ago my wife started an article on Calton weavers which was speedily deleted. She started again, but it soured her on Wikipedia. Today she pointed out a Huffington Post article that discussed a speedy deletion nomination for Natalie Smith Henry submitted one minute after the article was first saved. The incident was also picked up by the New York Times and the BBC in discussions on why there are so few women editors. If a new editor's first experience with WP is a speedy deletion nomination, we are likely to lose them even if the nomination is rejected. If potential new editors hear WP is a hostile place, they may never consider contributing. The publicity about the Natalie Smith Henry nomination may have caused significant and lasting damage.
Some new articles must be deleted fast because they are clear copyright violations, vicious personal attacks and so on. But if an article by a new editor is harmless there is no urgency to delete. There is no reason for a huge, angry pink notice that seems to tell the new editor they have committed a crime. There should be a process to politely tell the editor that there are issues with the article, explain what they are, and offer to help. If nothing happens for a week, then the article can be deleted. Once the new process, let's call it Newby help, is in place, editors who repeatedly submit speedy or proposed deletion nominations for harmless articles by new editors should be subject to admin action. The potential losses greatly outweigh the benefits. Comments? Aymatth2 ( talk) 18:02, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
Scenario. The "Apsley Eagles" are a successful amateur sports team that merits a Wikipedia article. A high school teacher gives her class an assignment to write a Wikipedia article on the team. An enthusiastic student registers for a userid, then starts a first version of the article that reads, in its entirety, "The Apsely Eagles are the best team in the state." Two minutes later the article is nominated for speedy deletion. The class sees the huge pink warning message. While they are discussing it, the article is deleted. 30 potential editors are lost.
I am thinking of three templates. The first, for harmless new articles that may evolve into something useful but perhaps lack sourcing or evidence of notability, would be something like:
The second template, for insertion on the new article's talk page, would be a basic introduction to the idea of notability and how to write an article. The third, for the talk page of editors who repeatedly flag harmless articles for speedy deletion using the standard angry pink notice, would be something like:
If you persist in nominating harmless new articles for deletion you may be banned from editing. Thanks, and have a nice day.
Is it practical to implement a change in process like this? Aymatth2 ( talk) 15:34, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
All--I put together a first draft of an essay Wikipedia:Wikipedia does or does not need that article and welcome feedback/discussion/utter destruction at that essay's page.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 20:16, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
Why did you speedy delete instead of edit my page!! How can I get it back so I can begin editing???
HMGMR ( talk) 13:31, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
I propose that we either change the policy or clarify the wording regarding how users contest a speedy deletion. The current policy as it is worded only forbids the article creator from removing a speedy deletion tag, any other user can remove the speedy deletion tag in order to contest the speedy deletion. However, many times the article creator will simply log out and remove the tag or create a new account to remove the tag in an attempt to bypass this guideline. Many new page/recent changes patrollers already revert these "unexplained" removals of speedy deletion tags as disruptive. I would like to see the policy changed to state that any editor removing a speedy deletion tag, must also provide a reasoning for the removal in the edit summary (or talk page), otherwise it is considered disruptive and may be reverted. As I stated, many editors already practice this anyways as a matter of common sense. It's silly to allow article creators to simply contest a speedy deletion by logging out, and they clearly are not acting in good faith. It would waste time to have to take many of these articles to AfD. Experienced editors who contest speedy deletions normally leave an explanatory edit summary anyhow, so I don't see this change as being controversial, or that it adds undue weight to the deletion process. Thanks. - War wizard90 ( talk) 05:49, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
Sandstein undid my clarification about renomination: [1]. I don't particularly care about article vs page (I thought article was preferred) but the point is, this wording confuses some people. They see "page is kept" and think that refers to any page that is not deleted. I have twice been accused of being disruptive because I renominated for deletion an article that had previously been AfD and was closed as no consensus. Their argument was that the page was kept because it was not deleted, therefore, I should have waited before renominating it. One person accused me of being disruptive, demanded I withdraw the AfD and then reported me at ANI - multiple admins replied and explained why this was not disruptive, as did the closing admin on the AfD. (see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive888#Disruptive renomination at AfD and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Brian Armstrong (diver) (2nd nomination). This happened again recently - obviously this needs to be clarified. In this part about renomination, it should clearly say, "Page closed as keep" instead of "page is kept" as apparently people think "kept" is not the AfD keep but any circumstance where it is not deleted. —Мандичка YO 😜 12:03, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
Should an old deletion discussion be valid for all future, or is it possible to start to redevelop an article later on? Sure, in the case of Minneapolis Bandolier it has been only a little over a year since the discussion, but still, can't a discussion ever be considered to be outdated? Should it always lay a dead hand over the development of articles? Dammråtta ( talk) 23:02, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
An RfC has been opened to see if WP:NOTFAQ and WP:NOTHOWTO should or should not apply to redirects. For the discussion, see WT:NOT#RfC: Should we add a footnote to WP:NOTHOWTO/WP:NOTFAQ stating that it does not apply to redirects? -- 67.70.32.190 ( talk) 04:55, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
{{ recap}} is nominated for deletion. This is an ancillary deletion template for processing long deletion discussions -- 70.51.202.113 ( talk) 04:47, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
This is so open ended to be meaningless and is a deletionist gift from heaven. For example one editor claims that because an article contained some promotional content, the entire article should be deleted since it is "not suitable for an encyclopedia". This is not an isolated incident, this editor claims this rational has been used "thousands" of times at AfD. -- Green C 22:52, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
"Delete and redirect" should only be used when an article contains copyright violations or contains libelous statements about a living person. Deleting an article history to prevent it from being recreated in the future is not a valid reason for deleting the article history.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
"Delete and redirect" should only be used if every revision in the history of the page satisfies the criteria for revision deletion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I propose adding
:Help for editors new to deletion discussions can be found at Wikipedia:Guide to deletion#Discussion and Wikipedia:Guide to deletion#Recommendations and outcomes.
which displays as
to the top of all newly-created XfDs.
I've updated Template:Afd2/sandbox and Template:Afd2/testcases to demonstrate this.
Among other things, this will point to documentation that says exactly what "redirect" means, avoiding the confusion that sometimes happens at XfD or Deletion Review. Sidebar: For the past few years, that page has said that "Redirect" implies "Redirect and keep" but if the discussion immediately above this one changes things, then that document will need to be updated).
If there is an affirmative consensus to make the change or if there are no objections within a week then I'll make the "edit request" in a week or so. If a consensus becomes obvious sooner, I will make the edit request sooner (personally, I think this is a "no brainer" but I've been wrong about "no brainers" before). davidwr/( talk)/( contribs) 17:28, 1 December 2015 (UTC)