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I have some rather serious concerns about this candidate, including the prospects for an effective evaluation by editors not already familiar with him. The block log is revealing to a point, but the editor's talk page (including archives) is incomplete, as a result of his practice of "shifting shit" from it: if he is displeased by something having been raised on his own talk page, he sometimes deletes the discussion and moves it to the talk page of the other editor (for his description of this practice, see here, at the bottom). The archives of the user-talk page, then, are incomplete, having been cleansed of some unpleasantness, including not only other editors' concerns but the candidate's own incivility in response. Nomoskedasticity ( talk) 20:46, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
Passive aggression to tiptoe around WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA, also severe concerns with temperament. I certainly hope the secret ballot voters will read this section before casting their vote. I will obviously be Opposing this candidate. Agent Vodello OK, Let's Party, Darling! 19:14, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
Some of those blocks are just plain bad and clearly not the candidate's fault. Looking at the log, it seems that at least one of those blocks was completely egregious and ... made by another candidate in this election. I'm referring to this block by HJ Mitchell made on August 31 of this year, with the justification that there was a supposed legal threat involved. As can be clearly seen there was no such legal threat ever made [1], the block was soon reversed (by User Avraham - why isn't he running?) and HJ Mitchell was criticized (not to say "reprimanded") for making the block. I'm left wondering if the blocks aren't just due to some other people's misunderstanding of policy rather than this candidate's fault. Unfortunately, a bad, even a very bad, block still leaves its mark on the user's record and I'm getting the sense that that is what's going on here. People need to actually click through and look at the diffs rather than jumping in with an opinion. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 02:58, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
I concur with all the above concerns, the conduct/approach really isn't appropriate for this type of role. Perhaps one or two blocks are incorrect, but that leaves many perfectly justified ones. I personally have had experience of the candidate's issues with civility and most of my discussions with him have also been removed from his talk page. Technically such deletions are not a breach of the rules but I want Wikipedia to be run by people who are open and transparent. If people post false comments on one's talk page then then it's better to refute them, similarly when one makes a mistake there's no need to delete any discussions about it. Based on my experience I'd question Off2RioRob's "99 percent complete" figure for the completeness of his talk page. On the positive side the candidate did apologise to me so that is to be commended, but it would be better if most of these incidents did not occur in the first place.-- Shakehandsman ( talk) 19:55, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
I've read a few ANI issues where Off2riorob added his two cents. Unless he was personally involved, his contribution looked either extremely shallow or otherwise they were biased towards one party. We need unbiased arbs willing to dig deep into the issues present, not off-the-cuff judgments. SchmuckyTheCat ( talk)
My interactions with Off2riorob were short-lived--maybe he was just having a bad day. But they occurred in an arbitration, so I'm concerned enough to speak up here.
In spring 2010 I lent my assistance to a WP:NORN which figured in what I later learned was a meta-dispute in numerous race/intelligence related articles. Shortly after I became acquainted with it, the meta-dispute spread itself to the WP:BLPN board, where off2riorob left opinions. (I assume that he was drawn in to the meta-dispute in a similar manner that I was.) We didn't come to the same conclusions. Which is ok-and business as usual, at wikipedia. No big deal. But this meta-dispute landed in arbitration, and that should be where the rubber meets the road-in other words, evidence backed with diffs.
This edit was the 3rd move in a temper tantrum by off2riorob who flew off the handle when I disagreed with his conclusions offered in arbitration, that I think are unfounded, in defending a subsequently topic-banned party in the arbitration. While I was trying to focus on the complexities of the issue and sources themselves, my dissent triggered in him an impatient explosion about my "bombarding" with diffs. [3] To minimize drama, I didn't fly into high dudgeon in the arbitration page, but went to his talk page seeking an explanation. He self-righteously nuked it from his own talk page, and lectured me to discuss it on mine. (I don't care either way. My first instinct is the efficiency of "I talk to you on your page, you talk to me on mine.")
What suggests to me that he may too intemperate yet for the arbitration committee were his comments like this, "'No I have never spoken to you before, but talking to you today has allowed me to easily form these positions" and "Please leave me out of this POV single purpose users issue, I hate it , I would block you all, at least topic ban you all so that you either go away and stop disrupting wikipedia or that you get the wikipedia idea and start improving the wikipedia instead of simply attempting to assert your POV on the wikipedia, try this...help on some football articles or something independent of your single POV. I strongly support all my comments at that Arbitration requests race and intellegence noticeboard and will defend them anywhere, please forget about me and carry on regardless.' Off2riorob (talk) 20:34, 18 August 2010" I'm not a single purpose user, I didn't draw him into the debate. This may have been a bad day, like I said. But on that day he failed in those attributes I think important in dispute resolution. Professor marginalia ( talk) 07:19, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
Perhaps Off2riorob has matured a little, I don't know, but I think it's worth mentioning a somewhat odd view on Wikipedia's civility policy, a view which preceded this. There's nothing personal here, but I was surprised to see his name in the list of candidates. He seems well-intentioned, but lacking in judgement, and I'm not sure I want someone with such a poor understanding of the difference between strong language and civility able to contribute to important decisions. Parrot of Doom 22:07, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
I notice a few people have commented who have had personal interactions with Off2riorob. I've never had any personal interaction with him as far as I can remember, and so I'm coming from a completely neutral position. The examples noted above are certainly not one-sided - I think Off2riorob did have some justification for his part in a number of them, and various antagonists were not entirely innocent. However, having said that, I have seen Off2riorob in discussion around the place a lot, and although he is a fantastic contributor and has done a lot of excellent work at BLP, and his judgment on BLP issues, of which he has great experience, is often spot on, I don't believe he has the right temperament for ArbCom - and I was actually very surprised to see him as a candidate. I think he gets into too many unnecessary arguments, and he seems to have an approach of digging in and defending his own entrenched position very strongly, while not really trying to understand any opponents' positions - and that would really not be a good approach for ArbCom. The block log concerns me too, even if one or two were unjustifed. I note that they were all short and Off2riorob cooled down pretty quickly in each case, which is commendable. But that observation, and other interactions I've seen, suggest too much of a tendency to shoot first and ask questions later. Sorry I can't offer difs, but I'm really just expressing a general feeling from having seen a lot of interactions, and picking out a few specific incidents would not really illustrate that. So, in short, I see a very competent and committed editor, with a great deal of knowledge, especially in the BLP arena, but I don't see the personal interaction skills that would be needed for admin or ArbCom. -- Boing! said Zebedee ( talk) 08:44, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
Having interacted with him, and having watched other editors try to work with him as well, I would second the above comment: he seems to have an approach of digging in and defending his own entrenched position very strongly, while not really trying to understand any opponents' positions. I have linked to an example on his candidate's question page. IMO his approach is not at all a good match for ARBCOM. The dispute in question is one in which every editor but one (i.e. Off2riorob) is in agreement that some material should be included, but Off2riorob is simply vetoing it unilaterally, refusing to recognize consensus, refusing to participate in any consensus-building exercise, and attacking everyone who disagrees. It eventually became irreconcilable with the presumption of good faith. One can argue one way or another about this block or that block on his rather strikingly extended list of same, but behind it all is a pattern of absolute inflexibility that is IMO the exact opposite of what ARBCOM is supposed to be. Spaceclerk ( talk) 21:24, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
Reading the remarks above I must point out a big difference between being IN a dispute, and being OUTSIDE and ABOVE a dispute. I do not know how he handles himself when party to a dispute. Maybe with a personal stake he loses his temper. But when he has no personal stake, I have seen Off2riorob bring restraint, and a dignified and fair perspective to other people's quarrel. My experience of Off2riorob came in the course of my talk page conversation with a (from my jaundiced perspective) frothing-at-the-mouth ideologue. Off2riorob without taking sides gently and tactfully steered us toward a workable solution. Also he's a Brit, and I think it good to have a non-American perspective. I support Off2riorob's candidacy. ElijahBosley (talk ☞) 14:29, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
This is the talk page for discussing a candidate for election to the Arbitration Committee. | |||
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I have some rather serious concerns about this candidate, including the prospects for an effective evaluation by editors not already familiar with him. The block log is revealing to a point, but the editor's talk page (including archives) is incomplete, as a result of his practice of "shifting shit" from it: if he is displeased by something having been raised on his own talk page, he sometimes deletes the discussion and moves it to the talk page of the other editor (for his description of this practice, see here, at the bottom). The archives of the user-talk page, then, are incomplete, having been cleansed of some unpleasantness, including not only other editors' concerns but the candidate's own incivility in response. Nomoskedasticity ( talk) 20:46, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
Passive aggression to tiptoe around WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA, also severe concerns with temperament. I certainly hope the secret ballot voters will read this section before casting their vote. I will obviously be Opposing this candidate. Agent Vodello OK, Let's Party, Darling! 19:14, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
Some of those blocks are just plain bad and clearly not the candidate's fault. Looking at the log, it seems that at least one of those blocks was completely egregious and ... made by another candidate in this election. I'm referring to this block by HJ Mitchell made on August 31 of this year, with the justification that there was a supposed legal threat involved. As can be clearly seen there was no such legal threat ever made [1], the block was soon reversed (by User Avraham - why isn't he running?) and HJ Mitchell was criticized (not to say "reprimanded") for making the block. I'm left wondering if the blocks aren't just due to some other people's misunderstanding of policy rather than this candidate's fault. Unfortunately, a bad, even a very bad, block still leaves its mark on the user's record and I'm getting the sense that that is what's going on here. People need to actually click through and look at the diffs rather than jumping in with an opinion. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 02:58, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
I concur with all the above concerns, the conduct/approach really isn't appropriate for this type of role. Perhaps one or two blocks are incorrect, but that leaves many perfectly justified ones. I personally have had experience of the candidate's issues with civility and most of my discussions with him have also been removed from his talk page. Technically such deletions are not a breach of the rules but I want Wikipedia to be run by people who are open and transparent. If people post false comments on one's talk page then then it's better to refute them, similarly when one makes a mistake there's no need to delete any discussions about it. Based on my experience I'd question Off2RioRob's "99 percent complete" figure for the completeness of his talk page. On the positive side the candidate did apologise to me so that is to be commended, but it would be better if most of these incidents did not occur in the first place.-- Shakehandsman ( talk) 19:55, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
I've read a few ANI issues where Off2riorob added his two cents. Unless he was personally involved, his contribution looked either extremely shallow or otherwise they were biased towards one party. We need unbiased arbs willing to dig deep into the issues present, not off-the-cuff judgments. SchmuckyTheCat ( talk)
My interactions with Off2riorob were short-lived--maybe he was just having a bad day. But they occurred in an arbitration, so I'm concerned enough to speak up here.
In spring 2010 I lent my assistance to a WP:NORN which figured in what I later learned was a meta-dispute in numerous race/intelligence related articles. Shortly after I became acquainted with it, the meta-dispute spread itself to the WP:BLPN board, where off2riorob left opinions. (I assume that he was drawn in to the meta-dispute in a similar manner that I was.) We didn't come to the same conclusions. Which is ok-and business as usual, at wikipedia. No big deal. But this meta-dispute landed in arbitration, and that should be where the rubber meets the road-in other words, evidence backed with diffs.
This edit was the 3rd move in a temper tantrum by off2riorob who flew off the handle when I disagreed with his conclusions offered in arbitration, that I think are unfounded, in defending a subsequently topic-banned party in the arbitration. While I was trying to focus on the complexities of the issue and sources themselves, my dissent triggered in him an impatient explosion about my "bombarding" with diffs. [3] To minimize drama, I didn't fly into high dudgeon in the arbitration page, but went to his talk page seeking an explanation. He self-righteously nuked it from his own talk page, and lectured me to discuss it on mine. (I don't care either way. My first instinct is the efficiency of "I talk to you on your page, you talk to me on mine.")
What suggests to me that he may too intemperate yet for the arbitration committee were his comments like this, "'No I have never spoken to you before, but talking to you today has allowed me to easily form these positions" and "Please leave me out of this POV single purpose users issue, I hate it , I would block you all, at least topic ban you all so that you either go away and stop disrupting wikipedia or that you get the wikipedia idea and start improving the wikipedia instead of simply attempting to assert your POV on the wikipedia, try this...help on some football articles or something independent of your single POV. I strongly support all my comments at that Arbitration requests race and intellegence noticeboard and will defend them anywhere, please forget about me and carry on regardless.' Off2riorob (talk) 20:34, 18 August 2010" I'm not a single purpose user, I didn't draw him into the debate. This may have been a bad day, like I said. But on that day he failed in those attributes I think important in dispute resolution. Professor marginalia ( talk) 07:19, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
Perhaps Off2riorob has matured a little, I don't know, but I think it's worth mentioning a somewhat odd view on Wikipedia's civility policy, a view which preceded this. There's nothing personal here, but I was surprised to see his name in the list of candidates. He seems well-intentioned, but lacking in judgement, and I'm not sure I want someone with such a poor understanding of the difference between strong language and civility able to contribute to important decisions. Parrot of Doom 22:07, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
I notice a few people have commented who have had personal interactions with Off2riorob. I've never had any personal interaction with him as far as I can remember, and so I'm coming from a completely neutral position. The examples noted above are certainly not one-sided - I think Off2riorob did have some justification for his part in a number of them, and various antagonists were not entirely innocent. However, having said that, I have seen Off2riorob in discussion around the place a lot, and although he is a fantastic contributor and has done a lot of excellent work at BLP, and his judgment on BLP issues, of which he has great experience, is often spot on, I don't believe he has the right temperament for ArbCom - and I was actually very surprised to see him as a candidate. I think he gets into too many unnecessary arguments, and he seems to have an approach of digging in and defending his own entrenched position very strongly, while not really trying to understand any opponents' positions - and that would really not be a good approach for ArbCom. The block log concerns me too, even if one or two were unjustifed. I note that they were all short and Off2riorob cooled down pretty quickly in each case, which is commendable. But that observation, and other interactions I've seen, suggest too much of a tendency to shoot first and ask questions later. Sorry I can't offer difs, but I'm really just expressing a general feeling from having seen a lot of interactions, and picking out a few specific incidents would not really illustrate that. So, in short, I see a very competent and committed editor, with a great deal of knowledge, especially in the BLP arena, but I don't see the personal interaction skills that would be needed for admin or ArbCom. -- Boing! said Zebedee ( talk) 08:44, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
Having interacted with him, and having watched other editors try to work with him as well, I would second the above comment: he seems to have an approach of digging in and defending his own entrenched position very strongly, while not really trying to understand any opponents' positions. I have linked to an example on his candidate's question page. IMO his approach is not at all a good match for ARBCOM. The dispute in question is one in which every editor but one (i.e. Off2riorob) is in agreement that some material should be included, but Off2riorob is simply vetoing it unilaterally, refusing to recognize consensus, refusing to participate in any consensus-building exercise, and attacking everyone who disagrees. It eventually became irreconcilable with the presumption of good faith. One can argue one way or another about this block or that block on his rather strikingly extended list of same, but behind it all is a pattern of absolute inflexibility that is IMO the exact opposite of what ARBCOM is supposed to be. Spaceclerk ( talk) 21:24, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
Reading the remarks above I must point out a big difference between being IN a dispute, and being OUTSIDE and ABOVE a dispute. I do not know how he handles himself when party to a dispute. Maybe with a personal stake he loses his temper. But when he has no personal stake, I have seen Off2riorob bring restraint, and a dignified and fair perspective to other people's quarrel. My experience of Off2riorob came in the course of my talk page conversation with a (from my jaundiced perspective) frothing-at-the-mouth ideologue. Off2riorob without taking sides gently and tactfully steered us toward a workable solution. Also he's a Brit, and I think it good to have a non-American perspective. I support Off2riorob's candidacy. ElijahBosley (talk ☞) 14:29, 30 November 2010 (UTC)