![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
Times have changed. When I was brought before this board (years ago), my judgement was quite swift. I easily got a 1-week, then 1-month forced vacation :) GoodDay ( talk) 19:28, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
( edit conflict)::Yep, it's why Wikipedia articles in contentious issues are not reliable. They are usually one-sided. The side with more numbers win. In the end editors don't really feel like putting in effort to edit when it's such a hostile environment. I remember in the heyday, 2006-2011, when editing was fun. Now, you always look over your shoulder and think twice before deciding to edit to see if it's really worth it to get into a pissing match. 🔯 Sir Joseph 🍸 (talk) 20:52, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
Soo...what if we required users to provide evidence they've followed, or at least attempted the dispute resolution process? I mean, in the same way that we require users to demonstrate that they have provided the DS warning? TimothyJosephWood 22:54, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
I don't think any of the admins who do the actual administratin' on AE actually read this talk page. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 23:52, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
I would oppose eliminating it. It's not working very well right now, true - mostly because of number of requests. But I've actually seen it even worse. It ebbs and flows and when it works it really cleans up trouble areas. Israeli-Palestinian topics is much much much quieter thanks to AE. Ditto Macedonia. India-Pakistan. Even Eastern Europe was doing relatively well until a couple years ago (and the change is no fault of AE, just a lot to deal with now). So we shouldn't get rid of something which really is useful based on a short snap shot of time and because we're currently in a low. Getting some more admins to learn the ropes or getting some of the old ones to come back would be useful.
Also, I'm pretty sure it would take an ArbCom motion or something like that to close down AE. It could die a natural death, but as long as people keep filing reports and admins keep looking at'em, it'll be here. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 02:04, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
You've tried to resolve this edit war on the article talk page, haven't you? So put a link to the discussion here. If all you've done is reverted-without-talk, you may find yourself facing a block too. TimothyJosephWood 16:09, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
The wording can always be changed. But right now, there is no requirement for a courtesy wording, so in many cases it is "do it or I'll report you." Today I just posted a courtesy notice, and I imagine it was self-understood that if it wasn't reverted, I'd report. But the rule should be there, discuss/warn first before you submit to AE. 🔯 Sir Joseph 🍸 (talk) 18:18, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
Banning people who are not directly involved in the dispute/report from commenting would be a good start. The amount of "peanut gallery" commentary has gotten ridiculous. I'm also pretty sure that it wouldn't be novel - at one point User:Sandstein at least suggested it, and iirc, at another time admins would simply remove comments by such users. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 23:30, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
Copy-pasting from @ Bishonen:'s talk page, with a few clarifications.
The ability of upset editors to post the same issue/appeal at a rapid fire pace, and on multiple noticeboards (AE/ANI/AN) needs a rethink.
Due process objective for the upset editor is important, but so are three other objectives: [a] the time and effort of admins, [b] the time and effort of non-admin editors hauled up, and [c] the goals of the wikipedia project. Time is a zero-sum issue.
It may be time to consider, if there aren't already, rules on
These or alternate case consolidation and cool off rules may help balance the interests of all sides, reduce the time sink associated with parallel filings and rapid fire appeals. It may also give the aggrieved party some time to get their emotions, thoughts and facts together before filing a new appeal. There is no emergency in wikipedia. Just some suggestions. I confess I am really clueless about AE/AN guidelines and history. I also confess that I am far more concerned about the three objectives above, far less about the due process for upset disrupters after the first appeal. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 12:55, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
I recently attempted to seek enforcement on this Project Page related to a topic ban which was imposed By ARBCOM. I mistakenly believed that this was the correct place to make such a request, but as I found out, it is not and doing so was actually a violation of my topic ban. I don't believe the pink box makes this clear enough. I am suggesting that the pink box contains a sentence such as "Be aware this Project Page is not covered by
WP:BANEX. If you have received a topic ban from ARBCOM and you discuss this here, you will be in violation of your topic ban.
...or words to that effect. This is not an attempt to change an existing policy, it is merely a suggestion to make it more clear to editors what they should/not be doing. DrChrissy
(talk)
00:07, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
...that's how we get instruction creep and giant unreadable boxes like this to begin with.It's hard to argue with that, though I still think this is a good idea. However if you're right that this has only happened the one time (I figured it would be common, but haven't checked) then perhaps it's not worth it. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 16:15, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
Perhaps I should indicate why my confusion occurred and why I am suggesting just a single sentence be added to the pink box. If I wish to seek clarification or amendment to my ARBCOM-TB, I can go to WP:ARCA - on that page I can discuss my TB (relatively) freely. However, it appears I can not even mention my ARBCOM-TB at WP:AE, a page which I believe most editors would see as being very similar to ARCA and therefore under similar PaGs. DrChrissy (talk) 17:54, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
I thought it worth flagging up a single edit made today, in fact a few minutes ago, by Faebot, though the edit was not strictly a bot edit. I was unsure if the Commons image global replace method I was using would just fall over, and after my main account (Fæ) was not accepted as a login by the JAR GlobalReplace tool, I tried Faebot as it only includes ascii characters and was expecting another stage of prompts before all the changes were executed (the tool usage is not well documented as a work flow). The tool made 436 replacements globally ( log), of which 13 have been on the English Wikipedia where the technically incorrect/misleading image File:Alternate Coat of arms of Kenya.svg was being used and needed to be replaced. Unfortunately this tool is not as smart as the script I have used over the last couple of years, which itself fell over due to recent changes in bot account security necessitating a swap to OAuth logins. In my 'normal' script I can filter on Wiki language codes and would make the change under my main account rather than a bot account, this is the normal practice for global replacements when renaming Commons hosted images.
The change was requested by SJ at c:Commons:Village_pump#Advice_wanted:_Correcting_the_Kenyan_coat_of_arms. I am flagging the edit for comment, or in case anyone has questions about it, as Faebot was specifically unblocked by Arbcom to enable a different Commons task, which I have yet to return to sorting out, rather than for any other types of edit.
The change to content is valid, but using Faebot was a mistake on my part. I should have played around with the Unicode form of my main account and made the same edits from there if possible, or got another user to make the replacement. I have no plans to use Faebot for any other edits without going via the WP:BAG procedure, and though I have made several million edits using Faebot on other projects without giving anyone reason for complaint, this is the first time that Faebot has been used on the English Wikipedia for the last 6 years. Thanks -- Fæ ( talk) 10:58, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for flagging this up. Just to note that I blocked the bot. This measure is designed just to be preventative to avoid similar mistakes happening in future given that Faebot is a global bot and we allow such bots to edit enwiki only to edit interwiki links. Once you sort out the task for which the bot was unblocked and gain any necessary local approval from BAG, the bot can be unblocked to carry out that task. WJBscribe (talk) 12:40, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
ArbCom is currently considering merging the logs of sanctions imposed as part of a case remedy (such as an ArbCom imposed TBAN) with the centralised discretionary sanctions log. Before I move past drafting a motion to do that, I'd like to get some opinions from the people it will mostly affect, i.e. admins working in AE. So, thoughts on having one central log for all AE actions (DS and non-DS)...? Callanecc ( talk • contribs • logs) 06:13, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
A motion has been proposed that would modify the method used for logging Arbitration Enforcement sanctions
The motion can be reviewed and commented upon here
Discussion is invited from all interested parties.
For the Arbitration Committee Amortias ( T)( C) 21:59, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
I apologize if this is not the proper method to do this, but is it normal procedure to close an enforcement request within 42 minutes of its being posted, with little discussion? 331dot ( talk) 22:21, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
I'm copying the following comment made to the page to this talk page. 331dot ( talk) 01:27, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
@ Sandstein: I know your block was in good faith, but I wanted to chime in and say I disagree with it. I would have liked to see other people contribute to the request before closing it. There was no urgency in handing the block and several other editors seem to agree that it wasn't that "easy and obvious". Isa ( talk) 04:51, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
If AE cases create, by default, a predefined section where the "accused" can make a statement, surely there is an assumption that enough time should be allowed for that to happen? 42 minutes is not enough time by any reasonable standards. Surely it should be at least 20 hours to allow for time differences, unless the "accused" is seen to be actively editing elsewhere within that time. If, according to Sandstein, "By design, AE actions do not require discussion" then why is there, by design, a predefined section inviting discussion? Tiptoethrutheminefield ( talk) 21:45, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
I'm concerned about the activity of a new editor who is making edits connected with the Israel/Palestine conflict despite not meeting the 30/500 rule. What steps need to be taken to ensure proper procedure here? I'm not aware that the editor has had proper notification of the sanction; I've informed him about it ( [4]), but does it need to be done by other than a regular editor? The editor is 238-Gdn; the main article of interest is Yitzchak Ginsburgh, and the material in question relates to Ginsburgh's teachings about Baruch Goldstein (e.g. [5]), as well as comments made after some violent incidents in the West Bank (e.g. [6]). Does an admin have to log a notification here for it to be valid? Nomoskedasticity ( talk) 09:15, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
An arbitration motion has been proposed that would amend the discretionary sanctions procedure by moving some of those provisions into the Committee's arbitration enforcement policy to standardise enforcement of all Committee and discretionary sanctions. The community is encouraged to reviewed and commented on the motion here. Callanecc ( talk • contribs • logs) 10:44, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
I think that an editor or several editors might have been editing the United Kingdom General Election 2017 page with an obviously pro- Liberal Democrats (UK) slant or angle with his or their own agreed or agreed-amongst-themselves "approved version", especially United Kingdom General Election 2017#Other politicians, which reads awfully like employees or professional activists inside Liberal Democrats (UK) central office in London deliberately playing down the anti-Antisemitism of their former MP and candidate David Ward (and the Guardian in the UK is well known as a pro-Labour AND a pro-LibDem newspaper, both generally and especially in this 2017 UK General Election, and I think he is or they are probably being deliberately mischievous and disingenuous here by using the Guardian source to back up his or their otherwise blatantly pro-LibDem (and "minor"-Antisemitism-excusing) bias). -- 87.102.116.36 ( talk) 15:01, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
Noting here that I just modified it so that it uses the standard Template:Edit filter warning. Jo-Jo Eumerus ( talk, contributions) 15:21, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
I'm re-asking this [8]. Seriously, the situation is a bit out of control. Newly created, throw away accounts, pop into these articles, edit war, break 1RR and then either disappear to be replaced by new ones or get banned (but so what? Just create a new one). There really needs to be an exemption for reverting accounts less than, say, two months old or with fewer than 100 edits.
Where do I raise this proposal/amendment? Volunteer Marek ( talk) 03:27, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
I don't know whether editors here can clarify this, or whether I need to submit a forma clarification request. Please advise.
An IP removed some cited information from an article covered by WP:ARBPIA. I reverted this, and the IP reverted my edit. Under normal circumstances, I would be able to again revert, since edits to enforce the general sanction are exempt from the 1RR restriction. However, in the meantime an extended confirmed editor had removed the citation itself, which the IP had left in the article. How can I respond to this? I cannot restore the text with the citation, since this would be a second revert, and not exempt from the restriction. However, if I just revert the IP editor, which I believe I am permitted to do, then I will be adding contentious information without a citation.
The article in question is Deir Yassin, and the relevant edits can be seen in the article history. RolandR ( talk) 11:59, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
Could an uninvolved administrator – or the edit who wrote – remove this personal attack as Sagecandor didn't provide any diffs for their accusations. Politrukki ( talk) 17:08, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
So, apparently the archives of this page were lost in limbo; despite the (collapsed) note in the archivebox, it showed that none existed. I've tracked down the problem (automated bot deletion of an accidentally broken redirect) and restored what needed to be restored. I'm also turning on automated archiving as per normal procedure (I've set it to 60d which is standard for this kind of slower venue I guess). ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 19:33, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
Although there is a big pink box on the enforcement page noting a limit on the length of comments, the instructions (both template above edit box and hidden text appearing in the edit box) after clicking the button "Click here to add a new enforcement request" for submitting a request do not reference any limit. For the sake of clarity for those not familiar with this process, the instructions after clicking the link should include the necessary steps and instructions. AHeneen ( talk) 18:59, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
I notice that Template:Arbitration enforcement appeal includes this text:
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
However, the rules to which it links says that a consensus of uninvolved administrators is required at AE or a consensus of uninvolved editors at AN. Would anyone object to me modifying the template along the lines of Special:Diff/791144647? GoldenRing ( talk) 12:17, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
I've never heard of Naomi Klein, but I was curious to see if I could trace down the source for the alleged "the most democratic country in the Western hemisphere" quote. It appears that this quote is not from Klein, but from an article published by The Nation. Her only connection to this article that I can see is that she Tweeted it. [9] A Quest For Knowledge ( talk) 18:36, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
The Wikimedia Foundation Anti-Harassment Tools team would like to build and improve tools to support the work done by contributors who set, monitor, and enforce editing restrictions on Wikipedia, as well as building systems that make it easier for users under a restriction to avoid the temptation of violating a sanction and remain constructive contributors.
You are invited to participate in a discussion that documents the current problems with using editing restrictions and details possible tech solutions that can be developed by the Anti-harassment tools team. The discussion will be used to prioritize the development and improvement of tools and features.
For the Wikimedia Foundation Anti-harassment tools team, SPoore (WMF), Community Advocate, Community health initiative ( talk) 15:16, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
Arbitration sanctions imposed on articles related to the Arab-Israel conflict have been added to talk page at Linda Sarsour. [10] Does this article properly warrant being covered by such sanctions? I'm dubious. If so, then a host of persons, perhaps thousands, will be covered. Perhaps they should be, but I wanted to be clear. Coretheapple ( talk) 21:12, 21 December 2017 (UTC)
comment Having these placed on non-DS logged pages by non admins is not harmless. For istance see AE involving Ali Khamenei in which all involved thought (wrongly per AE outcome) this was 1RR due to a talk page notice. Having the notice on a page makes one assume almost everything on that article is under ARBPIA. Icewhiz ( talk) 23:31, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
The "discussion" above is some of the worst bureaucratic bullshit I've seen. Articles related to the Arab-Israeli conflict broadly construed are subject to sanctions, but only an administrator may put the notice on the talk page? BULLSHIT! The sanctions apply whether an editor is aware of them or not, so any editor who notifies her or his fellow editors of the sanctions is performing a public good. Such behavior ought to be encouraged, not outlawed. Administrators would do well to actually, you know, edit the encyclopedia once in a while. — MShabazz Talk/ Stalk 02:24, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
Every article on Wikipedia can be turned into an IP conflict article.
I think this whole question about templating the Sarsour article is...weird. (The question of clarifying discretionary sanctions versus other sanction is interesting though, thank you User:BU Rob13) The only two editors I have noticed regularly templates IP talk pages, is Shrike and Myself. Now, Shrike and I (as most of you know), hardly agree about anything, but I have no problem when he templates, say: Council for the National Interest here, A land without a people for a people without a land here, Israel and state-sponsored terrorism, here, The Left's Jewish Problem, here Walter Guinness, 1st Baron Moyne here, Aishiyeh massacre here, Al-Quds here (This was found just looking through his latest 100 edits.) Any editor could of course remove a template I (or Shrike) put on a talk page (It has never happened to me, but if it did, I seriously hope I would not be so imbecile as to edit war about it.) I view these templates as courtesy to newbies, if not newbies to WP, then at least newbies in the IP area. Huldra ( talk) 21:22, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
Incidentally there is an article (paywalled) in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz this morning about the dispute on the Linda Sarsour page. Editors Icewhiz, Seraphim System, E.M. Gregory, Huldra and Sangdeboeuf are mentioned. The article treats it as an Israel-Palestine dispute. My opinion on whether the article falls under ARBPIA is that it doesn't actually matter since any uninvolved administrator is free to impose similar types of restrictions on the page anyway. Zero talk 23:27, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
I've had a few editors tell me that they find the current templates unclear in that it isn't easy to find what pages are actually covered.
At the moment we have two styles: The default is a concise, bold-print message:
{{
Ds/talk notice|tpm|brief}}
gives:
![]() | The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people, which is a contentious topic. Please consult the procedures and edit carefully. |
Alternatively there is a more wordy and detailed message:
{{
Ds/talk notice|saq|long}}
gives:
Error: The code letter saq
for the topic area in this contentious topics talk notice is not recognised or declared. Please
check the documentation.
Experienced editors and others with good eyesight will probably realise they have to click on the word 'subject' in the first one and 'permitted' in the second one to get to the Final decision, which is itself wordy and full of information that many editors won't want to read, and it isn't immediately obvious which pages are covered.
In March I asked the clerks if they could create something more reader-friendly and Kevin wrote Template:Ds/talk notice/sandbox which changes these to:
Error: The code letter for the topic area in this contentious topics talk notice is not recognised or declared. Please check the documentation.
Error: The code letter for the topic area in this contentious topics talk notice is not recognised or declared. Please check the documentation.
We (the Committee) are posting this here as probably the best place to garner comments from those most involved with the process. Do people like this, and do they have any tweaks to suggest?
I myself feel that the long version should be the default, rather than the short version which is the current default. Doug Weller talk 11:30, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
![]() | The use of discretionary sanctions has been authorized by the Arbitration Commitee for pages related to Some Bullshit™, including this one. Please edit carefully. |
![]() | The use of discretionary sanctions has been authorized by the Arbitration Commitee for pages related to Some Bullshit™, including this page. Please consult the awareness criteria and edit carefully. |
![]() | The
Arbitration Committee has permitted
uninvolved Wikipedia
administrators to impose
discretionary sanctions on editors of pages related to
Some Bullshit™, including this page. As long as the awareness criteria are met, discretionary sanctions can be used against an editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process. |
![]() | The use of discretionary sanctions has been authorized by the Arbitration Commitee for pages related to Some Bullshit™, including this page. Please consult the awareness criteria and edit carefully. |
![]() | The
Arbitration Committee has permitted
uninvolved
administrators to impose
discretionary sanctions on users who edit pages related to
Some Bullshit™, including this page. Provided the awareness criteria are met, discretionary sanctions may be used against editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process. |
First, the requirement to deliver templates, which expire after a while, permits any bad-actor to WP:GAME the system with ease; they simply disrupt to their heart's content in one area, finally get a notice after people try to do something about it and realize that their hands are tied to these stupid template requirements, then the disruptor simply goes and disrupts a different area they haven't received a notice about, or abandon their SPA and create another one. This "maybe they're unaware of the sanctions" thing is a harmful, community-self-delusional fantasy. They damned well know exactly what they're doing, and the presence of DS banners on the relevant talk pages makes everyone aware as soon as they start participating in the topic area.
Second, the wording and appearance of these templates is so menacing, they are universally interpreted as hostile threats, never as neutral notices. I've even twice had people try to ANI me for "harassment" because I left them notices that ArbCom requires.
(One of the main things I'd hoped to accomplish in 2018, as an ArbCom candidate, was DS reform. It's irksome that I missed election by less than 3% and actually received more support votes that 50% of the candidates who passed. The voting system we have for this
is broken.)
All that said, the proposals above are a tiny improvement and I support them, and without a desire to nit-pick over exact wording. But it's like putting a Band-aid on a shotgun wound.
At bare minimum, a bot should deliver templates to anyone who edits a page (or talkpage thereof) subject to DS. Better yet, delete the userspace templates and assume, rationally, that "ignorance of the law is no exception" and that people who edit repeatedly in DS-covered topics are aware of the DS. Or just get rid of DS, which is the proximal and sole cause of "adminship is not/shouldn't be a big deal" no longer being true.
—
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<
18:34, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
See also Opabinia regalis's recent comments at [ the related ARCA discussion: "I actually think that's a feature, not a bug :) When the existing alerts come from specific other editors, people tend to react to them as if they're aggressive acts or personal affronts. If everybody and their mother gets one, and they come from DSBot, they're less personal. (I assume the bot could deliver just one notice per topic.)"
The entire premise here is that people are overreacting to these notices as dire threats when they are nothing by pointers to an administrative fact about a topic area; the typical "Fuck off!" reaction people get when leaving one makes people largely unwilling to leave them, which means DS is not applicable to most of the people it should be. It's completely counter-productive to continue to try to treat them as not just neutral notices of a fact, to keep trying to give them gravitas by carving out exceptions for who should receive them. I kind of went along with this idea briefly, but I do not. If you edit the page, you get the notice.
—
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<
10:59, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
they will just treat the notices as spam and ignore them - meaning they will also potentially miss important notices that happen to look similar or any messages left with or at a similar time to the alert (regardless of subject or importance)seems rather dubious to me - we have plenty of bots (and humans) which do alerting for other issues and I am not aware of any such thing happening (and is certainly not ameliorated by human delivery, either). There is little merit to have humans telling bots to deliver notices to specific editors over the humans doing it themselves. As for the minor edit issue, throttling does reduce the spam issue and besides even minor edits can cause contention. Jo-Jo Eumerus ( talk, contributions) 21:16, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
Times have changed. When I was brought before this board (years ago), my judgement was quite swift. I easily got a 1-week, then 1-month forced vacation :) GoodDay ( talk) 19:28, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
( edit conflict)::Yep, it's why Wikipedia articles in contentious issues are not reliable. They are usually one-sided. The side with more numbers win. In the end editors don't really feel like putting in effort to edit when it's such a hostile environment. I remember in the heyday, 2006-2011, when editing was fun. Now, you always look over your shoulder and think twice before deciding to edit to see if it's really worth it to get into a pissing match. 🔯 Sir Joseph 🍸 (talk) 20:52, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
Soo...what if we required users to provide evidence they've followed, or at least attempted the dispute resolution process? I mean, in the same way that we require users to demonstrate that they have provided the DS warning? TimothyJosephWood 22:54, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
I don't think any of the admins who do the actual administratin' on AE actually read this talk page. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 23:52, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
I would oppose eliminating it. It's not working very well right now, true - mostly because of number of requests. But I've actually seen it even worse. It ebbs and flows and when it works it really cleans up trouble areas. Israeli-Palestinian topics is much much much quieter thanks to AE. Ditto Macedonia. India-Pakistan. Even Eastern Europe was doing relatively well until a couple years ago (and the change is no fault of AE, just a lot to deal with now). So we shouldn't get rid of something which really is useful based on a short snap shot of time and because we're currently in a low. Getting some more admins to learn the ropes or getting some of the old ones to come back would be useful.
Also, I'm pretty sure it would take an ArbCom motion or something like that to close down AE. It could die a natural death, but as long as people keep filing reports and admins keep looking at'em, it'll be here. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 02:04, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
You've tried to resolve this edit war on the article talk page, haven't you? So put a link to the discussion here. If all you've done is reverted-without-talk, you may find yourself facing a block too. TimothyJosephWood 16:09, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
The wording can always be changed. But right now, there is no requirement for a courtesy wording, so in many cases it is "do it or I'll report you." Today I just posted a courtesy notice, and I imagine it was self-understood that if it wasn't reverted, I'd report. But the rule should be there, discuss/warn first before you submit to AE. 🔯 Sir Joseph 🍸 (talk) 18:18, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
Banning people who are not directly involved in the dispute/report from commenting would be a good start. The amount of "peanut gallery" commentary has gotten ridiculous. I'm also pretty sure that it wouldn't be novel - at one point User:Sandstein at least suggested it, and iirc, at another time admins would simply remove comments by such users. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 23:30, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
Copy-pasting from @ Bishonen:'s talk page, with a few clarifications.
The ability of upset editors to post the same issue/appeal at a rapid fire pace, and on multiple noticeboards (AE/ANI/AN) needs a rethink.
Due process objective for the upset editor is important, but so are three other objectives: [a] the time and effort of admins, [b] the time and effort of non-admin editors hauled up, and [c] the goals of the wikipedia project. Time is a zero-sum issue.
It may be time to consider, if there aren't already, rules on
These or alternate case consolidation and cool off rules may help balance the interests of all sides, reduce the time sink associated with parallel filings and rapid fire appeals. It may also give the aggrieved party some time to get their emotions, thoughts and facts together before filing a new appeal. There is no emergency in wikipedia. Just some suggestions. I confess I am really clueless about AE/AN guidelines and history. I also confess that I am far more concerned about the three objectives above, far less about the due process for upset disrupters after the first appeal. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 12:55, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
I recently attempted to seek enforcement on this Project Page related to a topic ban which was imposed By ARBCOM. I mistakenly believed that this was the correct place to make such a request, but as I found out, it is not and doing so was actually a violation of my topic ban. I don't believe the pink box makes this clear enough. I am suggesting that the pink box contains a sentence such as "Be aware this Project Page is not covered by
WP:BANEX. If you have received a topic ban from ARBCOM and you discuss this here, you will be in violation of your topic ban.
...or words to that effect. This is not an attempt to change an existing policy, it is merely a suggestion to make it more clear to editors what they should/not be doing. DrChrissy
(talk)
00:07, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
...that's how we get instruction creep and giant unreadable boxes like this to begin with.It's hard to argue with that, though I still think this is a good idea. However if you're right that this has only happened the one time (I figured it would be common, but haven't checked) then perhaps it's not worth it. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 16:15, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
Perhaps I should indicate why my confusion occurred and why I am suggesting just a single sentence be added to the pink box. If I wish to seek clarification or amendment to my ARBCOM-TB, I can go to WP:ARCA - on that page I can discuss my TB (relatively) freely. However, it appears I can not even mention my ARBCOM-TB at WP:AE, a page which I believe most editors would see as being very similar to ARCA and therefore under similar PaGs. DrChrissy (talk) 17:54, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
I thought it worth flagging up a single edit made today, in fact a few minutes ago, by Faebot, though the edit was not strictly a bot edit. I was unsure if the Commons image global replace method I was using would just fall over, and after my main account (Fæ) was not accepted as a login by the JAR GlobalReplace tool, I tried Faebot as it only includes ascii characters and was expecting another stage of prompts before all the changes were executed (the tool usage is not well documented as a work flow). The tool made 436 replacements globally ( log), of which 13 have been on the English Wikipedia where the technically incorrect/misleading image File:Alternate Coat of arms of Kenya.svg was being used and needed to be replaced. Unfortunately this tool is not as smart as the script I have used over the last couple of years, which itself fell over due to recent changes in bot account security necessitating a swap to OAuth logins. In my 'normal' script I can filter on Wiki language codes and would make the change under my main account rather than a bot account, this is the normal practice for global replacements when renaming Commons hosted images.
The change was requested by SJ at c:Commons:Village_pump#Advice_wanted:_Correcting_the_Kenyan_coat_of_arms. I am flagging the edit for comment, or in case anyone has questions about it, as Faebot was specifically unblocked by Arbcom to enable a different Commons task, which I have yet to return to sorting out, rather than for any other types of edit.
The change to content is valid, but using Faebot was a mistake on my part. I should have played around with the Unicode form of my main account and made the same edits from there if possible, or got another user to make the replacement. I have no plans to use Faebot for any other edits without going via the WP:BAG procedure, and though I have made several million edits using Faebot on other projects without giving anyone reason for complaint, this is the first time that Faebot has been used on the English Wikipedia for the last 6 years. Thanks -- Fæ ( talk) 10:58, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for flagging this up. Just to note that I blocked the bot. This measure is designed just to be preventative to avoid similar mistakes happening in future given that Faebot is a global bot and we allow such bots to edit enwiki only to edit interwiki links. Once you sort out the task for which the bot was unblocked and gain any necessary local approval from BAG, the bot can be unblocked to carry out that task. WJBscribe (talk) 12:40, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
ArbCom is currently considering merging the logs of sanctions imposed as part of a case remedy (such as an ArbCom imposed TBAN) with the centralised discretionary sanctions log. Before I move past drafting a motion to do that, I'd like to get some opinions from the people it will mostly affect, i.e. admins working in AE. So, thoughts on having one central log for all AE actions (DS and non-DS)...? Callanecc ( talk • contribs • logs) 06:13, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
A motion has been proposed that would modify the method used for logging Arbitration Enforcement sanctions
The motion can be reviewed and commented upon here
Discussion is invited from all interested parties.
For the Arbitration Committee Amortias ( T)( C) 21:59, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
I apologize if this is not the proper method to do this, but is it normal procedure to close an enforcement request within 42 minutes of its being posted, with little discussion? 331dot ( talk) 22:21, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
I'm copying the following comment made to the page to this talk page. 331dot ( talk) 01:27, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
@ Sandstein: I know your block was in good faith, but I wanted to chime in and say I disagree with it. I would have liked to see other people contribute to the request before closing it. There was no urgency in handing the block and several other editors seem to agree that it wasn't that "easy and obvious". Isa ( talk) 04:51, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
If AE cases create, by default, a predefined section where the "accused" can make a statement, surely there is an assumption that enough time should be allowed for that to happen? 42 minutes is not enough time by any reasonable standards. Surely it should be at least 20 hours to allow for time differences, unless the "accused" is seen to be actively editing elsewhere within that time. If, according to Sandstein, "By design, AE actions do not require discussion" then why is there, by design, a predefined section inviting discussion? Tiptoethrutheminefield ( talk) 21:45, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
I'm concerned about the activity of a new editor who is making edits connected with the Israel/Palestine conflict despite not meeting the 30/500 rule. What steps need to be taken to ensure proper procedure here? I'm not aware that the editor has had proper notification of the sanction; I've informed him about it ( [4]), but does it need to be done by other than a regular editor? The editor is 238-Gdn; the main article of interest is Yitzchak Ginsburgh, and the material in question relates to Ginsburgh's teachings about Baruch Goldstein (e.g. [5]), as well as comments made after some violent incidents in the West Bank (e.g. [6]). Does an admin have to log a notification here for it to be valid? Nomoskedasticity ( talk) 09:15, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
An arbitration motion has been proposed that would amend the discretionary sanctions procedure by moving some of those provisions into the Committee's arbitration enforcement policy to standardise enforcement of all Committee and discretionary sanctions. The community is encouraged to reviewed and commented on the motion here. Callanecc ( talk • contribs • logs) 10:44, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
I think that an editor or several editors might have been editing the United Kingdom General Election 2017 page with an obviously pro- Liberal Democrats (UK) slant or angle with his or their own agreed or agreed-amongst-themselves "approved version", especially United Kingdom General Election 2017#Other politicians, which reads awfully like employees or professional activists inside Liberal Democrats (UK) central office in London deliberately playing down the anti-Antisemitism of their former MP and candidate David Ward (and the Guardian in the UK is well known as a pro-Labour AND a pro-LibDem newspaper, both generally and especially in this 2017 UK General Election, and I think he is or they are probably being deliberately mischievous and disingenuous here by using the Guardian source to back up his or their otherwise blatantly pro-LibDem (and "minor"-Antisemitism-excusing) bias). -- 87.102.116.36 ( talk) 15:01, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
Noting here that I just modified it so that it uses the standard Template:Edit filter warning. Jo-Jo Eumerus ( talk, contributions) 15:21, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
I'm re-asking this [8]. Seriously, the situation is a bit out of control. Newly created, throw away accounts, pop into these articles, edit war, break 1RR and then either disappear to be replaced by new ones or get banned (but so what? Just create a new one). There really needs to be an exemption for reverting accounts less than, say, two months old or with fewer than 100 edits.
Where do I raise this proposal/amendment? Volunteer Marek ( talk) 03:27, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
I don't know whether editors here can clarify this, or whether I need to submit a forma clarification request. Please advise.
An IP removed some cited information from an article covered by WP:ARBPIA. I reverted this, and the IP reverted my edit. Under normal circumstances, I would be able to again revert, since edits to enforce the general sanction are exempt from the 1RR restriction. However, in the meantime an extended confirmed editor had removed the citation itself, which the IP had left in the article. How can I respond to this? I cannot restore the text with the citation, since this would be a second revert, and not exempt from the restriction. However, if I just revert the IP editor, which I believe I am permitted to do, then I will be adding contentious information without a citation.
The article in question is Deir Yassin, and the relevant edits can be seen in the article history. RolandR ( talk) 11:59, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
Could an uninvolved administrator – or the edit who wrote – remove this personal attack as Sagecandor didn't provide any diffs for their accusations. Politrukki ( talk) 17:08, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
So, apparently the archives of this page were lost in limbo; despite the (collapsed) note in the archivebox, it showed that none existed. I've tracked down the problem (automated bot deletion of an accidentally broken redirect) and restored what needed to be restored. I'm also turning on automated archiving as per normal procedure (I've set it to 60d which is standard for this kind of slower venue I guess). ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 19:33, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
Although there is a big pink box on the enforcement page noting a limit on the length of comments, the instructions (both template above edit box and hidden text appearing in the edit box) after clicking the button "Click here to add a new enforcement request" for submitting a request do not reference any limit. For the sake of clarity for those not familiar with this process, the instructions after clicking the link should include the necessary steps and instructions. AHeneen ( talk) 18:59, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
I notice that Template:Arbitration enforcement appeal includes this text:
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
However, the rules to which it links says that a consensus of uninvolved administrators is required at AE or a consensus of uninvolved editors at AN. Would anyone object to me modifying the template along the lines of Special:Diff/791144647? GoldenRing ( talk) 12:17, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
I've never heard of Naomi Klein, but I was curious to see if I could trace down the source for the alleged "the most democratic country in the Western hemisphere" quote. It appears that this quote is not from Klein, but from an article published by The Nation. Her only connection to this article that I can see is that she Tweeted it. [9] A Quest For Knowledge ( talk) 18:36, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
The Wikimedia Foundation Anti-Harassment Tools team would like to build and improve tools to support the work done by contributors who set, monitor, and enforce editing restrictions on Wikipedia, as well as building systems that make it easier for users under a restriction to avoid the temptation of violating a sanction and remain constructive contributors.
You are invited to participate in a discussion that documents the current problems with using editing restrictions and details possible tech solutions that can be developed by the Anti-harassment tools team. The discussion will be used to prioritize the development and improvement of tools and features.
For the Wikimedia Foundation Anti-harassment tools team, SPoore (WMF), Community Advocate, Community health initiative ( talk) 15:16, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
Arbitration sanctions imposed on articles related to the Arab-Israel conflict have been added to talk page at Linda Sarsour. [10] Does this article properly warrant being covered by such sanctions? I'm dubious. If so, then a host of persons, perhaps thousands, will be covered. Perhaps they should be, but I wanted to be clear. Coretheapple ( talk) 21:12, 21 December 2017 (UTC)
comment Having these placed on non-DS logged pages by non admins is not harmless. For istance see AE involving Ali Khamenei in which all involved thought (wrongly per AE outcome) this was 1RR due to a talk page notice. Having the notice on a page makes one assume almost everything on that article is under ARBPIA. Icewhiz ( talk) 23:31, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
The "discussion" above is some of the worst bureaucratic bullshit I've seen. Articles related to the Arab-Israeli conflict broadly construed are subject to sanctions, but only an administrator may put the notice on the talk page? BULLSHIT! The sanctions apply whether an editor is aware of them or not, so any editor who notifies her or his fellow editors of the sanctions is performing a public good. Such behavior ought to be encouraged, not outlawed. Administrators would do well to actually, you know, edit the encyclopedia once in a while. — MShabazz Talk/ Stalk 02:24, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
Every article on Wikipedia can be turned into an IP conflict article.
I think this whole question about templating the Sarsour article is...weird. (The question of clarifying discretionary sanctions versus other sanction is interesting though, thank you User:BU Rob13) The only two editors I have noticed regularly templates IP talk pages, is Shrike and Myself. Now, Shrike and I (as most of you know), hardly agree about anything, but I have no problem when he templates, say: Council for the National Interest here, A land without a people for a people without a land here, Israel and state-sponsored terrorism, here, The Left's Jewish Problem, here Walter Guinness, 1st Baron Moyne here, Aishiyeh massacre here, Al-Quds here (This was found just looking through his latest 100 edits.) Any editor could of course remove a template I (or Shrike) put on a talk page (It has never happened to me, but if it did, I seriously hope I would not be so imbecile as to edit war about it.) I view these templates as courtesy to newbies, if not newbies to WP, then at least newbies in the IP area. Huldra ( talk) 21:22, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
Incidentally there is an article (paywalled) in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz this morning about the dispute on the Linda Sarsour page. Editors Icewhiz, Seraphim System, E.M. Gregory, Huldra and Sangdeboeuf are mentioned. The article treats it as an Israel-Palestine dispute. My opinion on whether the article falls under ARBPIA is that it doesn't actually matter since any uninvolved administrator is free to impose similar types of restrictions on the page anyway. Zero talk 23:27, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
I've had a few editors tell me that they find the current templates unclear in that it isn't easy to find what pages are actually covered.
At the moment we have two styles: The default is a concise, bold-print message:
{{
Ds/talk notice|tpm|brief}}
gives:
![]() | The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people, which is a contentious topic. Please consult the procedures and edit carefully. |
Alternatively there is a more wordy and detailed message:
{{
Ds/talk notice|saq|long}}
gives:
Error: The code letter saq
for the topic area in this contentious topics talk notice is not recognised or declared. Please
check the documentation.
Experienced editors and others with good eyesight will probably realise they have to click on the word 'subject' in the first one and 'permitted' in the second one to get to the Final decision, which is itself wordy and full of information that many editors won't want to read, and it isn't immediately obvious which pages are covered.
In March I asked the clerks if they could create something more reader-friendly and Kevin wrote Template:Ds/talk notice/sandbox which changes these to:
Error: The code letter for the topic area in this contentious topics talk notice is not recognised or declared. Please check the documentation.
Error: The code letter for the topic area in this contentious topics talk notice is not recognised or declared. Please check the documentation.
We (the Committee) are posting this here as probably the best place to garner comments from those most involved with the process. Do people like this, and do they have any tweaks to suggest?
I myself feel that the long version should be the default, rather than the short version which is the current default. Doug Weller talk 11:30, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
![]() | The use of discretionary sanctions has been authorized by the Arbitration Commitee for pages related to Some Bullshit™, including this one. Please edit carefully. |
![]() | The use of discretionary sanctions has been authorized by the Arbitration Commitee for pages related to Some Bullshit™, including this page. Please consult the awareness criteria and edit carefully. |
![]() | The
Arbitration Committee has permitted
uninvolved Wikipedia
administrators to impose
discretionary sanctions on editors of pages related to
Some Bullshit™, including this page. As long as the awareness criteria are met, discretionary sanctions can be used against an editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process. |
![]() | The use of discretionary sanctions has been authorized by the Arbitration Commitee for pages related to Some Bullshit™, including this page. Please consult the awareness criteria and edit carefully. |
![]() | The
Arbitration Committee has permitted
uninvolved
administrators to impose
discretionary sanctions on users who edit pages related to
Some Bullshit™, including this page. Provided the awareness criteria are met, discretionary sanctions may be used against editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process. |
First, the requirement to deliver templates, which expire after a while, permits any bad-actor to WP:GAME the system with ease; they simply disrupt to their heart's content in one area, finally get a notice after people try to do something about it and realize that their hands are tied to these stupid template requirements, then the disruptor simply goes and disrupts a different area they haven't received a notice about, or abandon their SPA and create another one. This "maybe they're unaware of the sanctions" thing is a harmful, community-self-delusional fantasy. They damned well know exactly what they're doing, and the presence of DS banners on the relevant talk pages makes everyone aware as soon as they start participating in the topic area.
Second, the wording and appearance of these templates is so menacing, they are universally interpreted as hostile threats, never as neutral notices. I've even twice had people try to ANI me for "harassment" because I left them notices that ArbCom requires.
(One of the main things I'd hoped to accomplish in 2018, as an ArbCom candidate, was DS reform. It's irksome that I missed election by less than 3% and actually received more support votes that 50% of the candidates who passed. The voting system we have for this
is broken.)
All that said, the proposals above are a tiny improvement and I support them, and without a desire to nit-pick over exact wording. But it's like putting a Band-aid on a shotgun wound.
At bare minimum, a bot should deliver templates to anyone who edits a page (or talkpage thereof) subject to DS. Better yet, delete the userspace templates and assume, rationally, that "ignorance of the law is no exception" and that people who edit repeatedly in DS-covered topics are aware of the DS. Or just get rid of DS, which is the proximal and sole cause of "adminship is not/shouldn't be a big deal" no longer being true.
—
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<
18:34, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
See also Opabinia regalis's recent comments at [ the related ARCA discussion: "I actually think that's a feature, not a bug :) When the existing alerts come from specific other editors, people tend to react to them as if they're aggressive acts or personal affronts. If everybody and their mother gets one, and they come from DSBot, they're less personal. (I assume the bot could deliver just one notice per topic.)"
The entire premise here is that people are overreacting to these notices as dire threats when they are nothing by pointers to an administrative fact about a topic area; the typical "Fuck off!" reaction people get when leaving one makes people largely unwilling to leave them, which means DS is not applicable to most of the people it should be. It's completely counter-productive to continue to try to treat them as not just neutral notices of a fact, to keep trying to give them gravitas by carving out exceptions for who should receive them. I kind of went along with this idea briefly, but I do not. If you edit the page, you get the notice.
—
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<
10:59, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
they will just treat the notices as spam and ignore them - meaning they will also potentially miss important notices that happen to look similar or any messages left with or at a similar time to the alert (regardless of subject or importance)seems rather dubious to me - we have plenty of bots (and humans) which do alerting for other issues and I am not aware of any such thing happening (and is certainly not ameliorated by human delivery, either). There is little merit to have humans telling bots to deliver notices to specific editors over the humans doing it themselves. As for the minor edit issue, throttling does reduce the spam issue and besides even minor edits can cause contention. Jo-Jo Eumerus ( talk, contributions) 21:16, 4 January 2018 (UTC)