This Wikipedia page has been superseded by Wikipedia:Requests for rollback and is retained primarily for historical reference. |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
It has been announced that non-administrators are to be given access to the previously administrator-only
rollback function. This has the ability to significantly change the way edits are reverted on Wikipedia.
There are several options available that should be examined.
Please feel free to create your own view, or endorse other proposals. Before commenting, please take a look at the following pages;
The currently planned implementation is as follows.
I don't see why some people want to make this non-admin rollback feature so hard to get, especially since we have scripts like Twinkle which can be installed by anyone. Why should we make this so hard to get if anyone can get Twinkle? If the Rollback for non-admins is enabled, it should be easy to get. A time limit or use limit for the new feature is a not a good idea, because if everyone who is the feature will be experienced anyway, they will be fighting vandalism and not vandalizing. Those experienced users will be fully capable to use it without making mistakes often. And who wants a time limit when you are fighting vandalism? That would get annoying. We wouldn't have to worry about vandals using it either, because most vandals are newbies, and they wouldn't know about non-admin rollback, much less how to sign up for it or use it. They also would not get approved for use of the feature. I believe non-admin rollback should be enabled and easy to get for experienced users. DiligentTerrier • talk | sign here 18:43, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Giving such tools to non-admins (such as myself) could be useful or could be harmful, but it is extraordinarily difficult to know a priori. Therefore, I am proposing this meta-plan: I suggest that we use whichever plan that Wikipedians find most agreeable. With that plan, do the following:
The evidence that we will accumulate over the 2 week period will be useful in deciding whether this should be a long-term feature for regular users. The 2 week window, likewise, will minimize the amount of "damage" should there be an unexpectedly 'vandalous' response. This process will allow us to have a more evidence-based discussion instead of a purely theoretical one.
The rollback button is quite an important tool, and in the right hands, it's extremely helpful in reverting vandalism. In the wrong hands however, it has the potential to do some serious damage to the project;
All in all, I think giving rollback to autoconfirmed users is a bad idea, maybe some way that admins could give it to trusted users would be a good idea however - but obviously there would have to be an easy way to remove it as well.
Rollback is a very useful but very dangerous tool. In the wrong hands, it can be used in edit warring, when it should not be used (reverting good faith edits), etc. Therefore, a RFA should be required to obtain access to this tool.
The rollback tool is extremely useful. As a non-admin, I find I use the TW version on a regular basis, and was happy when that functionality became available. However, offering access "system-wide" would be a mistake, as it would allow for quick and easy abuse. (I've seen many cases where vandals have taken advantage of the relatively new "undo" feature to restore their handiwork after I've cleaned it up.) The current restrictions, wherein regular users have to use TW or similar scripts, is sufficient. The users who are likely to go to the trouble of installing the script are also likely to be ones who will use proper judgement before using that script. -- Ckatz chat spy 03:20, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Rollback is not particularly better or worse than the undo feature or automatic rollback tools available through javascript such as Twinkle. On the other hand, the lack of an edit summary and the automatic 'minor edit' mark make vandalism patrolling more difficult. The ability to revert from a user's contributions page is more prone to abuse than the ability to revert from page histories.
Thus, giving all users rollback would be more acceptable if:
Rollback should not be given to all users, only those who have passed the "autoconfirm" threshold, the same restriction for semiprotection and pagemoves which is currently set to 4 days. This can and should be raised. The threshold can also be set to require a minimum edit count and it may be set to require a confirmed email address too. My proposal is to give rollback privileges to autoconfirmed users (with the same 5/min limit) and raise the threshold to reduce the risk of sleeper account abuse. Perhaps 7 days and 100 edits. Mr. Z-man 03:04, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Essentially I'm in agreement with Ryan Postlethwaite's comments above re the general situation. I have a specific proposal though for granting rollback to trusted users: a PROD-like process where people are nominated to gain access.
Orderinchaos 03:11, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
I don't like the idea that admins can give this ability. Admin abilities should stay as granted by bureaucrats. And going in hand with that, admins then shouldn't be able to remove the ability either. (Though I have an alternate suggestion, below) While removal of admin abilities have thus far been a Steward ability, I suggest that, in this individual case, the ability be given to bureaucrats, if it's to be given "on site". - jc37 04:36, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
How is creating yet another procedure going to be good for Wikipedia? We have RFA for everyone who needs more privileges. It works, don't fix it. -- Pepve ( talk) 13:40, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Indeed. This proposal is everything — everything — that was wrong with WP:RFR. Yet another backlog for admins to handle, yet another process where it is for judgement to decide if someone is being vexatious ("it is vexatious to prevent outstanding user X from having rollback, therefore I shall remove your opposition, and block you for disruption), it adds yet more disputes to AN/I, it grants admins even more power over other editors, it creates new class of users, and it requires far too much fine tuning, as shown in at least one of the comments above. This approach would be totally unacceptable, as shown by the failure of WP:RFR. Splash - tk 16:55, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Its basicly the same as Orderinchaos in a sense but with looser criteria and a different way to grant the tools
I feel that this is more community driven and fairer as the Community decides who is given these tools. Esskater11 03:38, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
< Dmcdevit> If you and 99 other people donate… < Dmcdevit> * $40 – We can deliver 100 million pageviews of free information! < Dmcdevit> * $30 - We can undo 35 million edits! < Dmcdevit> * $20 - We can rollback 35 million edits! < Dmcdevit> Now do you understand?
=D -- AmiDaniel ( talk) 03:59, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
If we do implement the rollback for non-admins, having an "RFA lite" is a bad idea that would only create an unnecessary hoop to jump through. Access should be granted on demand to any user that is clearly not disruptive. -- B ( talk) 05:14, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
The help page on rollbacks says that they "should be used with caution and restraint" and that "it is a slap in the face to a good-faith editor" to use rollback as opposed to reverting manually with an edit summary and explanation. I've seen newbies with rollback privileges at Wikia (where the requirements for adminship are very different to here) and they constantly violate these rules. Rollback to a newbie, who can not be expected to read the help page first, is simply something you do if you disagree with the edit made - it isn't intuitively something used only in cases of obvious vandalism. Enabling this feature will lead to many "slaps in the face". Many rollbacks will be made by accident or because people do not know when rollback is supposed to be used and these will be hard to detect. Angela . 13:45, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
The point of restricting rollback is not to waste the time of our valued non-admin patrollers. Faster non-admin revert (in terms of human time) would be a useful feature, providing appropriate measures against abuse are included. This feature is in fact already provided by various unofficial client-side scripts, but integration into MediaWiki would reduce server load and provide centralised control over the details of the user interface.
What exactly constitutes "appropriate measures against abuse" is obviously controversial. Possible mechanisms include:
I want us to stop wasting the time of "untrusted" users, so I favour rate limiting and two-click over trust.
Tim Starling ( talk) 14:52, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
The main reasons that WP:RFR failed were (1) the creation of a new class of user (those with rollback but not sysop) and (2) the creation of two new processes to manage the grant and revoke parts of it. The latter pair in particular would be very unfortunate to institute.
Therefore, if this is instituted in any form, I would advocate against the construction of any mechanism that was in any way non-automated for either granting or revoking this capability. Instead, we should do as we always do when a user misuses or abuses their editing privileges: block them. There is nothing 'lighter' about misusing rollback persistently than misusing the 'save' button persistently. No separate rules about it, no anything. If the editor is using rollback in a way contrary to that expected of the current modes (ie that expected of admins), then they are blocked from editing until they remedy that problem. Just as they would be for any other editorial misbehaviour.
Secondly, this should not create another class of user. It's for all (a) autoconfirmed accounts, or (b) all accounts or (c) for no-one at all. Hierarchy in editorial capability is a bad thing open to leverage by the less well-behaved editors. To be clear: this is not an 'on request' feature, it is an automatically assigned feature. Like all the other automatically assigned features, if you misuse it, you lose the ability to edit altogether.
To the developers I would note that they should reasonably expect some thought-provoking conversations to arise when a new feature has 'sociological' implications as this one has been shown to have a good number of times. Splash - tk 16:17, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
I posted this on this page's talk page but will mention it here also. In rev 28248, rollback for normal users has been removed. Rollback for non-admin users will only be enabled if there is consensus for the change to be made via localsettings.php. Fun Pika 22:21, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
The purpose of Rollback will benefit only a very targeted audience, i.e. those who seek to fight against vandalism. - Thing is most vandal-fighters are probably already armed themselves with the proper scripts to rollback. Other than that I don't see the opportunity cost of taking a few more extra seconds to key in "rvv" by a normal editor.
Even if we were to go ahead, we wouldn't want to see editors start utilizing it for edit wars ala Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Guanaco, MarkSweep, et al, and should have strong disincentives for those who use it for such a purpose. The way it is done must not give out a lot more heat than light as well, and heat is generated through unilateralism and arbitrariness.
In short, I don't really see the net-benefit from this that comes with the potential amount of dispute, conflict and perhaps even social problems.
First, let's think about the rollback threshold now. In order to get the rollback button, a user must make it through an RfA. They are granted these powers, along with others, by a bureaucrat. Bureaucrats are chosen through an RfB for their understanding of consensus, and, most importantly, their good judgment. Not to say that administrators have bad judgement, as many are very skilled at making tough (and correct) decisions, but placing the power of giving an admin tool to another user in the hands of an admin (who have not been chosen specifically for that purpose) seems to me like a Bad Thing. Again, many administrators have absolutely stellar judgment, but giving those kinds of powers to them instead of to bureaucrats, who have been selected by the community to provide this sort of thing is simply not necessary.
On a side note, Twinkle, Lupin's Anti-Vandal tool, etc., etc. allow reversion of edits at such a high rate that providing the rollback tool to users who have the ability to revert at relatively high speeds anyway serves little purpose.
Then, there is the issue of the tool's misuse. Making an account on Wikipedia is easy. Becoming an admin isn't. Pressing a rollback button is easy. Using proper judgment before pressing it isn't. It's not a risk we need to take.
Just my two cents :)
Users who endorse this summary:
Nearly everyone here has no objection to tools like Twinkle being broadly used, but many have objections to adding the [rollback] button to the user interface. So give autoconfirmed users the technical ability to rollback, an action which requires a unique token, but do not include the rollback button on diff, history, or user contribution pages (i.e., do not include it at all). In this case, rollback can only be accessed with a third-party tool like Twinkle, which everyone seems to agree is fine. The I/O speed and bandwidth issues are solved, and since custom summaries are possible with the rollback permission, there is no loss in the functionality of Twinkle (or other anti-vandalism tools).
This proposal assumes technical possibility, which may or may not be the case.
Users who endorse this summary:
Simply put: it's both good and bad.
I don't do much (any) vandal fighting now, since I am not continously on Wikipedia long enough to make doing so feasible. However, I used to do a fair amount, and I would have found a rollback function invaluable.
I technically endorse this function, because it would be an excellent feature for those who have to slog through RC correcting malicious edits, but I feel that there needs to be a restriction on who can use it.
I feel that the feature would be best restricted to editors with over 200 edits, since this is about the level where editors are usually experienced enough to make good judgements on when and when not to rollback. I think this is the only restriction that should be made, however. — Thomas H. Larsen 01:25, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
The rollback can be a powerful and useful tool in the right hands, but also a very damaging one in the wrong hands. To help reduce potential damage, use of the rollback tool by non-admin users, if employed, should be subject to the Three Revert Rule. This would restrict users from abusing the tool, but would allow vandal fighters to fight against vandalism with much more impunity, for, as it says on the rule page, removing simple vandalism is exempt from the 3RR.
Can we have a single proposal and actual discussion, instead of this formalized red tape? Thanks.
People that do not endorse this mess:
Please see the above link for a new proposal for giving rollback to non-administrators and edit as required. Ryan Postlethwaite 19:32, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
This Wikipedia page has been superseded by Wikipedia:Requests for rollback and is retained primarily for historical reference. |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
It has been announced that non-administrators are to be given access to the previously administrator-only
rollback function. This has the ability to significantly change the way edits are reverted on Wikipedia.
There are several options available that should be examined.
Please feel free to create your own view, or endorse other proposals. Before commenting, please take a look at the following pages;
The currently planned implementation is as follows.
I don't see why some people want to make this non-admin rollback feature so hard to get, especially since we have scripts like Twinkle which can be installed by anyone. Why should we make this so hard to get if anyone can get Twinkle? If the Rollback for non-admins is enabled, it should be easy to get. A time limit or use limit for the new feature is a not a good idea, because if everyone who is the feature will be experienced anyway, they will be fighting vandalism and not vandalizing. Those experienced users will be fully capable to use it without making mistakes often. And who wants a time limit when you are fighting vandalism? That would get annoying. We wouldn't have to worry about vandals using it either, because most vandals are newbies, and they wouldn't know about non-admin rollback, much less how to sign up for it or use it. They also would not get approved for use of the feature. I believe non-admin rollback should be enabled and easy to get for experienced users. DiligentTerrier • talk | sign here 18:43, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Giving such tools to non-admins (such as myself) could be useful or could be harmful, but it is extraordinarily difficult to know a priori. Therefore, I am proposing this meta-plan: I suggest that we use whichever plan that Wikipedians find most agreeable. With that plan, do the following:
The evidence that we will accumulate over the 2 week period will be useful in deciding whether this should be a long-term feature for regular users. The 2 week window, likewise, will minimize the amount of "damage" should there be an unexpectedly 'vandalous' response. This process will allow us to have a more evidence-based discussion instead of a purely theoretical one.
The rollback button is quite an important tool, and in the right hands, it's extremely helpful in reverting vandalism. In the wrong hands however, it has the potential to do some serious damage to the project;
All in all, I think giving rollback to autoconfirmed users is a bad idea, maybe some way that admins could give it to trusted users would be a good idea however - but obviously there would have to be an easy way to remove it as well.
Rollback is a very useful but very dangerous tool. In the wrong hands, it can be used in edit warring, when it should not be used (reverting good faith edits), etc. Therefore, a RFA should be required to obtain access to this tool.
The rollback tool is extremely useful. As a non-admin, I find I use the TW version on a regular basis, and was happy when that functionality became available. However, offering access "system-wide" would be a mistake, as it would allow for quick and easy abuse. (I've seen many cases where vandals have taken advantage of the relatively new "undo" feature to restore their handiwork after I've cleaned it up.) The current restrictions, wherein regular users have to use TW or similar scripts, is sufficient. The users who are likely to go to the trouble of installing the script are also likely to be ones who will use proper judgement before using that script. -- Ckatz chat spy 03:20, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Rollback is not particularly better or worse than the undo feature or automatic rollback tools available through javascript such as Twinkle. On the other hand, the lack of an edit summary and the automatic 'minor edit' mark make vandalism patrolling more difficult. The ability to revert from a user's contributions page is more prone to abuse than the ability to revert from page histories.
Thus, giving all users rollback would be more acceptable if:
Rollback should not be given to all users, only those who have passed the "autoconfirm" threshold, the same restriction for semiprotection and pagemoves which is currently set to 4 days. This can and should be raised. The threshold can also be set to require a minimum edit count and it may be set to require a confirmed email address too. My proposal is to give rollback privileges to autoconfirmed users (with the same 5/min limit) and raise the threshold to reduce the risk of sleeper account abuse. Perhaps 7 days and 100 edits. Mr. Z-man 03:04, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Essentially I'm in agreement with Ryan Postlethwaite's comments above re the general situation. I have a specific proposal though for granting rollback to trusted users: a PROD-like process where people are nominated to gain access.
Orderinchaos 03:11, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
I don't like the idea that admins can give this ability. Admin abilities should stay as granted by bureaucrats. And going in hand with that, admins then shouldn't be able to remove the ability either. (Though I have an alternate suggestion, below) While removal of admin abilities have thus far been a Steward ability, I suggest that, in this individual case, the ability be given to bureaucrats, if it's to be given "on site". - jc37 04:36, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
How is creating yet another procedure going to be good for Wikipedia? We have RFA for everyone who needs more privileges. It works, don't fix it. -- Pepve ( talk) 13:40, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Indeed. This proposal is everything — everything — that was wrong with WP:RFR. Yet another backlog for admins to handle, yet another process where it is for judgement to decide if someone is being vexatious ("it is vexatious to prevent outstanding user X from having rollback, therefore I shall remove your opposition, and block you for disruption), it adds yet more disputes to AN/I, it grants admins even more power over other editors, it creates new class of users, and it requires far too much fine tuning, as shown in at least one of the comments above. This approach would be totally unacceptable, as shown by the failure of WP:RFR. Splash - tk 16:55, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Its basicly the same as Orderinchaos in a sense but with looser criteria and a different way to grant the tools
I feel that this is more community driven and fairer as the Community decides who is given these tools. Esskater11 03:38, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
< Dmcdevit> If you and 99 other people donate… < Dmcdevit> * $40 – We can deliver 100 million pageviews of free information! < Dmcdevit> * $30 - We can undo 35 million edits! < Dmcdevit> * $20 - We can rollback 35 million edits! < Dmcdevit> Now do you understand?
=D -- AmiDaniel ( talk) 03:59, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
If we do implement the rollback for non-admins, having an "RFA lite" is a bad idea that would only create an unnecessary hoop to jump through. Access should be granted on demand to any user that is clearly not disruptive. -- B ( talk) 05:14, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
The help page on rollbacks says that they "should be used with caution and restraint" and that "it is a slap in the face to a good-faith editor" to use rollback as opposed to reverting manually with an edit summary and explanation. I've seen newbies with rollback privileges at Wikia (where the requirements for adminship are very different to here) and they constantly violate these rules. Rollback to a newbie, who can not be expected to read the help page first, is simply something you do if you disagree with the edit made - it isn't intuitively something used only in cases of obvious vandalism. Enabling this feature will lead to many "slaps in the face". Many rollbacks will be made by accident or because people do not know when rollback is supposed to be used and these will be hard to detect. Angela . 13:45, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
The point of restricting rollback is not to waste the time of our valued non-admin patrollers. Faster non-admin revert (in terms of human time) would be a useful feature, providing appropriate measures against abuse are included. This feature is in fact already provided by various unofficial client-side scripts, but integration into MediaWiki would reduce server load and provide centralised control over the details of the user interface.
What exactly constitutes "appropriate measures against abuse" is obviously controversial. Possible mechanisms include:
I want us to stop wasting the time of "untrusted" users, so I favour rate limiting and two-click over trust.
Tim Starling ( talk) 14:52, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
The main reasons that WP:RFR failed were (1) the creation of a new class of user (those with rollback but not sysop) and (2) the creation of two new processes to manage the grant and revoke parts of it. The latter pair in particular would be very unfortunate to institute.
Therefore, if this is instituted in any form, I would advocate against the construction of any mechanism that was in any way non-automated for either granting or revoking this capability. Instead, we should do as we always do when a user misuses or abuses their editing privileges: block them. There is nothing 'lighter' about misusing rollback persistently than misusing the 'save' button persistently. No separate rules about it, no anything. If the editor is using rollback in a way contrary to that expected of the current modes (ie that expected of admins), then they are blocked from editing until they remedy that problem. Just as they would be for any other editorial misbehaviour.
Secondly, this should not create another class of user. It's for all (a) autoconfirmed accounts, or (b) all accounts or (c) for no-one at all. Hierarchy in editorial capability is a bad thing open to leverage by the less well-behaved editors. To be clear: this is not an 'on request' feature, it is an automatically assigned feature. Like all the other automatically assigned features, if you misuse it, you lose the ability to edit altogether.
To the developers I would note that they should reasonably expect some thought-provoking conversations to arise when a new feature has 'sociological' implications as this one has been shown to have a good number of times. Splash - tk 16:17, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
I posted this on this page's talk page but will mention it here also. In rev 28248, rollback for normal users has been removed. Rollback for non-admin users will only be enabled if there is consensus for the change to be made via localsettings.php. Fun Pika 22:21, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
The purpose of Rollback will benefit only a very targeted audience, i.e. those who seek to fight against vandalism. - Thing is most vandal-fighters are probably already armed themselves with the proper scripts to rollback. Other than that I don't see the opportunity cost of taking a few more extra seconds to key in "rvv" by a normal editor.
Even if we were to go ahead, we wouldn't want to see editors start utilizing it for edit wars ala Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Guanaco, MarkSweep, et al, and should have strong disincentives for those who use it for such a purpose. The way it is done must not give out a lot more heat than light as well, and heat is generated through unilateralism and arbitrariness.
In short, I don't really see the net-benefit from this that comes with the potential amount of dispute, conflict and perhaps even social problems.
First, let's think about the rollback threshold now. In order to get the rollback button, a user must make it through an RfA. They are granted these powers, along with others, by a bureaucrat. Bureaucrats are chosen through an RfB for their understanding of consensus, and, most importantly, their good judgment. Not to say that administrators have bad judgement, as many are very skilled at making tough (and correct) decisions, but placing the power of giving an admin tool to another user in the hands of an admin (who have not been chosen specifically for that purpose) seems to me like a Bad Thing. Again, many administrators have absolutely stellar judgment, but giving those kinds of powers to them instead of to bureaucrats, who have been selected by the community to provide this sort of thing is simply not necessary.
On a side note, Twinkle, Lupin's Anti-Vandal tool, etc., etc. allow reversion of edits at such a high rate that providing the rollback tool to users who have the ability to revert at relatively high speeds anyway serves little purpose.
Then, there is the issue of the tool's misuse. Making an account on Wikipedia is easy. Becoming an admin isn't. Pressing a rollback button is easy. Using proper judgment before pressing it isn't. It's not a risk we need to take.
Just my two cents :)
Users who endorse this summary:
Nearly everyone here has no objection to tools like Twinkle being broadly used, but many have objections to adding the [rollback] button to the user interface. So give autoconfirmed users the technical ability to rollback, an action which requires a unique token, but do not include the rollback button on diff, history, or user contribution pages (i.e., do not include it at all). In this case, rollback can only be accessed with a third-party tool like Twinkle, which everyone seems to agree is fine. The I/O speed and bandwidth issues are solved, and since custom summaries are possible with the rollback permission, there is no loss in the functionality of Twinkle (or other anti-vandalism tools).
This proposal assumes technical possibility, which may or may not be the case.
Users who endorse this summary:
Simply put: it's both good and bad.
I don't do much (any) vandal fighting now, since I am not continously on Wikipedia long enough to make doing so feasible. However, I used to do a fair amount, and I would have found a rollback function invaluable.
I technically endorse this function, because it would be an excellent feature for those who have to slog through RC correcting malicious edits, but I feel that there needs to be a restriction on who can use it.
I feel that the feature would be best restricted to editors with over 200 edits, since this is about the level where editors are usually experienced enough to make good judgements on when and when not to rollback. I think this is the only restriction that should be made, however. — Thomas H. Larsen 01:25, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
The rollback can be a powerful and useful tool in the right hands, but also a very damaging one in the wrong hands. To help reduce potential damage, use of the rollback tool by non-admin users, if employed, should be subject to the Three Revert Rule. This would restrict users from abusing the tool, but would allow vandal fighters to fight against vandalism with much more impunity, for, as it says on the rule page, removing simple vandalism is exempt from the 3RR.
Can we have a single proposal and actual discussion, instead of this formalized red tape? Thanks.
People that do not endorse this mess:
Please see the above link for a new proposal for giving rollback to non-administrators and edit as required. Ryan Postlethwaite 19:32, 9 December 2007 (UTC)