This page is an archive. Do not edit the contents of this page. Please direct any additional comments to the current main page. |
Editor Esoglou took 5 different sources and cherry picked what they said to merge them together to make it appears as though they are opposed to the theology that some of them actually teach. 1.Diff [1]
" [1]
ROCOR Diocese of Great Britain and Ireland
Please note none of these sources say what the editor is attributing to them. None of these sources specifically say the Orthodox teaching on hell is that Hell is separation from God. The last source actually when speaking directly to that question states what is considered the Orthodox position (which is Hell and Heaven are the condition of a person in the presences of God).
Regarding specific conditions of after-life existence and eschatology, Orthodox thinkers are generally reticent; yet two basic shared teachings can be singled out. First, they widely hold that immediately following a human being's physical death, his or her surviving spiritual dimension experiences a foretaste of either heaven or hell. (Those theological symbols, heaven and hell, are not crudely understood as spatial destinations but rather refer to the experience of God's presence according to two different modes.) Thinking Through Faith: New Perspectives from Orthodox Christian Scholars page 195 By Aristotle Papanikolaou, Elizabeth H. Prodromou [2] LoveMonkey ( talk) 16:06, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
This issue keeps cropping up over in the edit war-zone of I/P articles and I wanted another opinion on the issue. When are editor made graphs and tables not OR? The example in question is here. There's no direct link to these figures compiled in the same manner by an outside source. It appears to be the work of an editor who has culled information from separate sources to create the table. The problem is compounded by some sources not giving straight numbers but instead a list of incidents, some that would be included in the table and others that would not.
So, NOR/N wizards, when can editors make graphs and tables of existing information? Does it violate Synthesis if it comes from multiple sources but not if from a single source? Or is it straight up OR to rearrange statistics/data in any manner not done by an outside source? Many thanks, Sol ( talk) 00:57, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
Talk:Roman_Catholic–Eastern_Orthodox_theological_differences#Intervention_by_Andrew_Lancaster The Editor Esoglou is attempting to force into the above article the idea that there is agreement between the two theologies of the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholic church based not on Roman Catholic official sources and directly against Eastern Orthodox representatives, sources. The editor Esoglou continually does not like what sources (Orthodox theologians) have said about the differences between the churches and continues to wiki hound and edit war and go against consensus in order to deny or discredit or under mine what the sources posted in the article say. Please look at the Talk:Roman_Catholic–Eastern_Orthodox_theological_differences#Orthodox_Church_of_America section for example.
The Editor Esoglou is doing this not by posting Roman Catholic sources or any sources information but by creating counter sources in misrepresenting Orthodox sources. Also Esoglou is wiki hounding by misusing source tagging requests and also not listening to corrects pointed out to by editors to the article other than just me. LoveMonkey ( talk) 14:12, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
There is a dispute as to whether or not certain material is synthesis at the article Judaization of Jerusalem. The material in question is in this diff. AMuseo argues that it is "inappropriate" to have an article on Judaization efforts by the Israeli government and not include what he feels is important material related to religious freedom. Two users, Tiamut and myself, argue that sources must relate that material to the topic of the article. Is it OR to include material that sources do not relate to the topic of the article? nableezy - 15:24, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
Hi, I've been having a content dispute with Humaliwalay, who keeps inserting that 25-49% of Lebanon's population is Shi'a. Before their addition, the article stated that approximately 28% of Lebanon's population was Shi'a, cited to this 2008 State Department report, which states that "the most recent demographic study conducted by Statistics Lebanon, a Beirut-based research firm, showed 28 percent of the population is Sunni Muslim, 28 percent Shi'a Muslim, 22 percent Maronite Christian, 8 percent Greek Orthodox, 5 percent Druze, and 4 percent Greek Catholic." To support their addition, they cite this report by the Pew Research Center, which gives a range of "1-2 million" Shi'a in Lebanon. Humaliwalay is combining that range with Lebanon's total estimated population of only 4 million, to create the 25-49% figure. First, that seems like pure synthesis to me. Second, right below the chart that gives the 1-2 million range, the Pew report itself states that "The figures for Shias are generally given in a range because of the limitations of the secondary-source data... Figures may not sum to totals due to rounding." I view the information as synthesized, and I see no reason to include it, as it is less accurate and older than the State Department's estimates. Thoughts? ← George talk 05:36, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
Several editors have expressed concern that the entire article may be WP:SYTH violation. I invite others to look over it and make comments on it. Two ANI threads and a RFC have been the result of this dispute. The Resident Anthropologist ( talk) 13:27, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
I believe that the article Palestinian drive-by shooting is largely filled with improper synthesis of published material and have tagged the article and opened a section on the talk page to discuss it. The tag has been edit-warred out of the article but what I feel is synthesis remains. Could editors who understand the rules on synthesis please comment at Talk:Palestinian drive-by shooting#synthesis? Thank you, nableezy - 21:28, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
A question has come up here about the creation of a coat of arms which is then presented in an article as "the coat of arms" of the subject, how much artistic license is acceptable in that creation, and what might be regarded as original research. Since this is not a subject I'm at all familiar with, and so far I'm the only one talking to the editor who uploaded the coat of arms, I'd appreciate some comments on that thread. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 05:15, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
Is the lead for this article properly supported by the source or does it present an original interpretation? The source itself does not use the term "Communist/communist", let alone define or even refer to "Communist/communist terrorism". (The source itself is considered reliable.)
WP Article: "Communist terrorism, state and dissident, is terrorism committed by various movements that claimed adherence to the doctrines of Karl Marx, both during the revolutionary struggle and also in the consolidation of power after victory".
Source: "Marxist socialism was pragmatic and revolutionary. It was action oriented and was adopted by many revolutionary leaders and movements throughout the 20th century. For example, Vladimie Ilich Lenin in Russia, Mao Zedong in China, Ho Chi Minh in Vietnam, and Fidel Castro in Cuba all based their revolutionary doctrines on Marx's precepts. Terrorism, both state and dissident, was used during these revolutions and during the consolidations of power after victory." [3]
TFD ( talk) 18:49, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
The book cited by TFD above [4], and which he asserts is reliable, is extensively cited in TFD's other favourite book, has a good coverage of communist terrorism so I'm not sure why Fifelfoo thinks it is not an adequate citation. -- Martin ( talk) 06:02, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
User:Ryulong says this info: "As with all previous Power Rangers series, Samurai uses the costumes from one of the many Super Sentai Series; Power Rangers: Samurai uses said items from 2009's Samurai Sentai Shinkenger." in the Power Rangers: Samurai article and this info "Its costumes will be used for the American series Power Rangers: Samurai." in the Samurai Sentai Shinkenger article are original research because "By visually comparing the costumes in Shinkenger and the costumes in PR Samurai and saying that they are identical, it is still considered original research to say that the former is the basis for the latter. You don't get to say "Shinkenger" on that page until the ending credits roll on PRS episode 1." [5] I think that info is not original research as the Power Rangers website [6] and a news article from Variety about Power Rangers: Samurai [7] have images that clearly show the Shinkenger costumes. What do you think is this info original research or not? Powergate92 Talk 22:44, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
Do you think this news article would be a reliable enough source for the info? It showed up in a Google News search [9] and it doe's say "The series will be adapted from the 2009 Super Sentai Series, SAMURAI SENTAI SHINKENGER." Powergate92 Talk 05:19, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
"The sky is blue" thing would only apply to the costumes they've shown. Only that bit is patently obvious. NotARealWord ( talk) 08:50, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
There's now an official promo for Power Rangers on MarVista Entertainment website [10] that shows footage from Samurai Sentai Shinkenger when talking about Power Rangers: Samurai. Powergate92 Talk 22:17, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
I think what's being said here is that even though the suits are the same as those in Shinkenger and footage from it has been used in promos, that's not proof that any actual footage will be used in the series itself. There is a possibility, however small, that all footage for the series will be put together by Saban itself. Until the actual series comes along, uses Shinkenger footage, and then credits it, there's no absolute proof that footage will be used. ComputerBox ( talk) 19:48, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
I am currently in a dispute over at Ergun Caner, where I linked to a Youtube video which shows the subject of the article reciting the Shahada incorrectly, while appearing in an expert capacity. I added an edit remarking that he recited it incorrectly.
Given that Caner has presented himself as an expert on Islam, and there has been considerable controversy over whether he has been honest about his past, I think this is highly relevant.
Does any of this count as original research? As I see it, I'm not advancing a position the video itself does not advance - all I'm stating is the fact that he got this phrase wrong, and explaining what the phrase is. Any help would be much appreciated. 90.209.80.240 ( talk) 18:40, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
Requesting additional eyes on Sipuleucel-T as a new user appears deadset on including WP:SYN content regarding the pricing of the drug by pulling in Medicare rules rather than the existing third party sourcing specificly identifying the cost of this treatment. This edit [11] may also indicate that the user has a potential conflict of interest re: cancer treatment articles. Active Banana (bananaphone 19:15, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
Hi experienced wikipedia editors,
I would like to seek your opinions on whether or not a recent edit of mine has violated the "no original research" code of conduct.
Before I start, I present you with a couple of references:
- A discussion in which this is debated
- Disputed figure caption that has been reverted by another user
My argument:
(1) The first sentence of the first disputed caption, was partially reverted. The kept part was "It refers to the islets as the "Senkaku islands in Okinawa"" and the removed part was "without identifying the rightful owner of these islands." It was claimed that the latter is an instance of original research and my view is that it is not. The reason being the removed section is an observation that is equally objective as the kept section. As well, the figure itself had no citation so my stance is that the figure and its entire caption should either be removed or that the entire sentence be kept.
(2) In both captions I appended a sentence that stated the sovereignty status of the referred territories at the referred time. Others claim that it's an instance of synthesis. In some sense one can hypothetically accuse the same of any text with numerous independent facts from different sources by simply citing some arbitrary form of synthesis. I disagree with their views in my case on the grounds that the information provided is simply a general background and did nothing to contradict or alter the point of the previous sentences. At the same time, the information on sovereignty status is crucial because without it may misrepresent the actual contents of the figure. For example, the line about sovereignty status in the second figure will prevent readers from falsely assuming that the Okinawa belonged to Japan at the time when it was in fact in U.S. possession at the time. If we allow that line to be removed, then we run the risk of misleading the readers which may lead to a case of indirect POV pushing. Bobthefish2 ( talk) 06:46, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
Could editors please comment on this posting by an editor at Talk:Communist terrorism, "Quoting passages from Marx and other leading Communists showing that they advocate terrorism does not constitute "original research" by any accepted standard". TFD ( talk) 13:47, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
1. This is not AfD. 2. The argument that it is only nasty anti-communists who add articles is a tad absurd. 3. sourcing issues are dissed on article talk pages. 4. The word "Terrorismus" in German, strangely enough, is translated as "terrorism." German has another word "Terror" for "terro." German and English are not all that different. 5. The question here posed is not answered by any such claims of nasty groups of editors at all. Collect ( talk) 18:32, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
hi i was pointed here. i am in the middle of a discussion at the page for Paraprosdokian, where i think that all of the examples listed count as original research since there are no citations showing that they are actually examples of what the article was about. isnt that what original research is? the writer has to decide if they are truly examples for themselves and this causes a lot of problems where people remove and add only because of what they think not because of anything verifiable. please tell me if im wrong in how i see original research thanks. Aisha9152 ( talk) 15:35, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
This article of "A briefcase alleged to be the nuclear football"--i.e., a briefcase that some Wikipedia editor(s) think is the nuclear football. To me this seems like original research, but it keeps getting added back so other opinions would be useful. Prezbo ( talk) 21:22, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
Isaiah Berlin wrote the following in Karl Marx:
Still comparatively unknown in England, [Marx] had grown abroad into a figure of vast fame and notoriety, regarded by some as the instigator of every revolutionary movement in Europe, the fanatical dictator of a world movement pledged to subvert the moral order, the peace, happiness and prosperity of mankind. By these he was represented as the evil genius of the working class, plotting to sap and destroy the peace and morality of civilized society, systematically exploiting the worst passions of the mob, creating grievances where none existed, pouring vinegar in the malcontents' wounds, exacerbating their relations with their employers in order to create the universal chaos in which everyone would lose, and so finally all would be made level at last, the rich and the poor, the bad and the good, the industrious and the idle, the just and the unjust. Others saw in him the most indefatigable and devoted strategist and tactician of labouring classes everywhere, the infallible authority on all theoretical questions, the creator of an irresistible movement designed to overthrow the prevailing rule of injustice and inequality by persuasion or by violence. To them he appeared as an angry and indomitable modern Moses, the leader and saviour of all the insulted and the oppressed, with the milder and more conventional Engels at his side, an Aaron ready to expound his words to the benighted, half-comprehending masses of the proletariat.
Some editors believe that Berlin was saying there are only two ways to view Marx. My reading of this is that he was saying that the influence of Marx was exaggerated, both by his supporters and by detractors. Does anyone have any other ideas about how to read this? TFD ( talk) 15:41, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
A dispute has arisen over the use of the word "forfeit" as opposed to "lost". It occurred at 2004 European Open (snooker) over the sentence "White lost the frame after three consecutive misses with a red ball in sight". In snooker if a player makes three consecutive misses (and the cue ball is in sight of a red), he automatically loses the frame. The source says that White made three of those misses and consequently lost the frame; the rules are here. Armbrust changed the wording from "forfeit" to "lost", saying that he lost, not forfeited (see here). I reverted explaining that he both lost and forfeited the frame. Discussion went to Armbrust's talk page where I asked if he would agree on "forced to forfeit", but he didn't as there were no reliable sources saying that he forfeited. My position is that "forfeited" is just a dictionary word and we don't need a source to say that when that word accurately describes what happened in the source. Christopher Connor ( talk) 15:33, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
On Talk:Communist terrorism one editor is saying the following is synth, i should like some outside opinions. The Red Brigades was a marxist/leninist urban terrorist group (sic) and most lethal of all communist organizations It is being said that this does not describe them as Communist/communist terrorists and as such it cant be used to have the Red Brigades in the article mark ( talk) 14:50, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
The 1992 book begins "this book examines a particular strain of terrorist group that is found primarily in Western Europe - the 'fighting communist organization' or FCO. For almost a quarter of a century, FCOs have caused politicfal and security problems in Western Europe." The authors were writing about a group of organizations active in the 1970s and 1980s. If we could show that the concept of FCOs had been accepted in the typology of terrorism, then we could write an article called "Fighting communist organizations". Since it has not been accepted, the best we could do is create an article about the book. What we cannot do is change the terminology and then decide to include groups such as the Soviet government that the authors would not have considered to fit into their category. That is why editors should read sources and let them drive article content rather than develop their own theories and seek sources that support them. TFD ( talk) 15:43, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
Wrong noticeboard. We have to discuss it on the WP:NPOVN. The mark's source is reliable, however, other reliable sources exist that call these terrorist groups leftist but not Communist. Since all Communists are leftists, whereas not all leftists are Communists, the story about these terrorist groups belongs to the more general article, namely leftist terrorism, which, for some unexplained reason is currently just a redirect page.-- Paul Siebert ( talk) 19:45, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
I am not really sure if I am in the right place, but the whole "topic" of this article appears to be in violation of some type of Wikipedia policy - WP:POVFORK doesnt quite cover it and I am not sure WP:OR does either - or am I way off base and this is a completely appropriate topic. Active Banana ( bananaphone 20:34, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
WP:OR has been alleged at Famine in India as shown in this diff [12]. The actual content that's the target of the OR allegation can be seen in this diff [13]. The Nobel Prize winner Amartya Sen and European Journal of Development Research Prize winner Olivier Rubin have been used as the sources. A direct like to Google Books or web sites has been provided for easy access and verification. A discussion between the editors can be seen in several sections of the talk page [14]. Is this OR? Zuggernaut ( talk) 03:35, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
The following section is in a edit conflict beween myself and Martin. Is it original research to subtract ICS dates selectively to show repeating interval sets. Is this paragragh original research?
Geologic Chronology
Reference: [1] Snelling 1985 Chronology of the Geologic Record; Boston, Blackwell Scientific Publications. ISBN 0-632-01285-4.
[2] 1991 Kevet, Radan 1991 Complete Periodical Geological Time Table, GeoJournal 24.4 417-420 Kluwer Academic Press.
[3] Rothschild, Adrian 2003, Evolution on Planet Earth, The Impact of the Physical Environment. Academic Press ISBN 0-12-598655-6.
[4] Barrera, Eniqueta, Geology, vol. 22, Issue 10, p.877, Global environmental changes preceding the Cretaceous-Tertiary boundary: Early-late Maastrichtian transition.(unstable temperature 4 to 7Ma before the KT event).
Morbas (
talk) 21:50, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
Thankyou...I need two more positive votes before I dare put the above paragraph back into the article... Morbas ( talk) 02:41, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
At History of Plaid Cymru an editor has added material claiming that Burke's peerage links the Anwyl of Tywyn Family with the now extince House of Aberffraw. His sources do not make this claim. and in fact 3 of the 4 don't even mention the family. His justification is that "I dispute. Burke's Peerage links the direct familial decendents of Owain Gwynedd living today. This is important in the discussion of a restored monarchy in Wales. Source 2 A History of Wales gives more info on the Aberffraw family, their history for Wales, and buttresses Owain Gwynedd and decendents. Source 3 details the laws of succession before the Edwardian Conquest of Wales." (There are 4 sources). One of his references says "^ Lewis, Hurbert; The Ancient Laws of Wales, 1889. Chapter VIII: Royal Succession; Rules to Marriage; Alienation pgs 192–200. According to Hurbert Lewis, though not explicitly codified as such by Hywel Dda, the edling, or Heir apparent, was by convention and custom the eldest son of the prince and entitled to inheirit the position and title as "head of the family" from the father. Effectively primogeniture with local variations. However, all sons were provided for out of the lands of the father and in certin circumstances so too were daughters. Additionally, sons could claim materinal patromony through their mother in certin circumstances." -- no mention of this family at all - at Talk:Anwyl of Tywyn Family where similar claims have been made about the current head of the Anwyl family, he has just said "who is and is not considered a prince/(petty) king is detailed by Herbert Lewis in "The Ancient Laws of Wales" 1889. Chapter VIII: Royal Succession; Rules to Marriage; Alienation pgs 192–200. According to Hurbert Lewis, though not explicitly codified as such by Hywel Dda, the edling, or Heir apparent, was by convention and custom the eldest son of the prince and entitled to inheirit the position and title as "head of the family" from the father. Effectively primogeniture with local variations. However, all sons were provided for out of the lands of the father and in certin circumstances so too were daughters. Additionally, sons could claim materinal patromony through their mother in certin circumstances. By this application, the senior legitimate claimet/pretender to the throne of Gwynedd and Wales is the Anwyl of Tywyn family. My response is that sources much make the specific claim, and despite being asked a number of times neither of the two editors making this claim has brought forward any sources making the claim. (There's another issue in that none of this mentions the history of Plaid Cymru, it's just an argument being added to the article that a certain family should be king if Wales had its own king, but with no sources). Dougweller ( talk) 17:59, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
Alas - all I can think of os The Short Reign of Pippin IV. Collect ( talk) 13:00, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
(an article abour a Tatar cryptolect)
Hi all, This page looks like it may be based on original research - the only supplied link leads to a unrelated page.
I have just the put OR template.
Regards, Borovi4ok
Does the text correctly reflect the source?
TFD ( talk) 03:31, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
I stumbled across Nagualism (Carlos Castaneda) today, and I think it's pretty much all OR. Question is, what to do about it? I'm tempted to bring it to AFD, but thought I'd stop here first for some guidance. -- Nuujinn ( talk) 22:20, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
I don't know if this has been covered before, but are original scientific works considered as a primary or secondary source on the topic they discuss? For example, would Adam Smith's foundational work on economics, The Wealth of Nations, be considered a primary source or secondary source on the topic of economics? What about Charles Darwin's book On the Origin of Species be a primary or secondary source in regard to the theory of evolution? What about Albert Enstein's Relativity: The Special and General Theory? -- Martin ( talk) 19:52, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
Economics should not be considered a scientific discipline, and, moreover, Wealth of the Nations was part of the discourse of 17-19th century political economy, a discourse commonly seen as having a reduced importance, even in contemporary political economy. For economics, it is superceeded, for economic history, it is a primary source. For the economic history of political economists prior to Smith, it is a secondary source, though probably deserving of attribution when used. Fifelfoo ( talk) 06:03, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
Biophys, Thanks for your response. I think that everybody is now pretty well agreed that it is one and the same equation. The problem is that I don't think that there are any secondary sources in existence which draw attention to this fact. Modern physics seems to teach the idea that the Lorentz force originated with Lorentz in the 1890's as an additional electromagnetic equation which compliments Maxwell's equations. And that idea seems to be pretty well ingrained in the scientific community. It is only in recent times, with easy access to on-line copies of Maxwell's original papers that people have started to notice that the Lorentz force equation was already around since at least 1861. See my response below to TFD. David Tombe ( talk) 09:14, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
Biophys, Thanks for your reply. And yes, we would still be calling it the Lorentz force even though everybody now knows that the name is a misnomer. The problem at the article in question has now been largely solved because the facts have now been generally accepted. David Tombe ( talk) 16:12, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
In Maxwell's 1861 paper On Physical Lines of Force, equation (77) is identical to the Lorentz force equation albeit that it is written in cartesian coordinates and split into x, y, and z components. Equation (77) can be found on page 342 which is on page 31 of the pdf file. This same equation appears again in the list of eight original Maxwell's equations in his 1864/65 paper [16]. It can be found at page 484 of the original paper on the supplied web link (page 26 of the pdf file). I have never known anybody, apart from one person, who has ever doubted that this equation corresponds mathematically to the Lorentz force equation. I have even read papers in which it has been transcribed into modern vector format, but I don't have any to hand right now.
I read that primary sources are acceptable where the information is unambiguous. Are these two original Maxwell papers satisfactory for the purpose of verifying the fact that Maxwell produced an equation in 1861 which is mathematically identical to the Lorentz force equation? David Tombe ( talk) 11:27, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
Existence of equivalency of equations is a matter of individually verifiable fact (the phrase at college was "intuitively obvious to the most casual observer") and is not a question of "primary" or "secondary" source (that sort of argument means one could not cite Einstein's "Theory of Relativity" as it is a primary source, for gosh sakes). Restating an equation is either correct, or it is not correct (one of the few cases where POV does not enter into the discussion at all!) Collect ( talk) 17:35, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
Collect, I once saw somebody walking along the street with the Lorentz transformations on their T-shirt, and I even recall spotting an E= mc^2 once, but I have never seen anybody going around advertising for Maxwell's equations. That's news to me. David Tombe ( talk) 00:00, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
TFD, Nobody is talking about the Lorentz transformations. We are talking about equation (D) in the original 8 Maxwell's equations, and the fact that it is the same as the Lorentz force equation. That fact has been generally agreed already. The issue is whether or not a primary Maxwell source can be used as illustration to verify this fact. This equation appears in both Maxwell's 1861 paper as equation (77) and in the 1864/65 paper as equation (D). And everybody knows exactly what the modern Lorentz force equation looks like, and anybody with any knowledge of EM will know that the Lorentz force equation corresponds to equation (77)/equation (D) in all important details. The Lorentz transformations on the other hand is a different topic. The Lorentz transformations lead to a relativistic form of the Lorentz force equation when applied to the 4 Heaviside versions of Maxwell's equations. David Tombe ( talk) 20:57, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
TFD, The modern form of the Lorentz force looks like this,
It has now been generally agreed amongst the physics editors that this is one and the same equation as equation (77) in Maxwell's 1861 paper, and also equation (D) of the original eight Maxwell's equations in the 1864/65 paper. And so that you can see it for yourself, I have now found a German web link which highlights the matter clearly. Have a look at equation (D) in this web link. It shows it in three forms. The form in the final column is identical to the form which I have just printed above. [19]. And I've found another here. This time look at equation 1.4 [20]. The first column shows it in the manner that it appears in Maxwell's original papers. The only difference is that it is expanded into the three x, y, and z, cartesian coordinates, whereas the modern version is in the modern vector notation.
As regards Tom Bearden's claims, I have never understood exactly what he is saying has been removed from the original Maxwell's equations content wise. At one point, I believe that Maxwell attempted to write his equations in quaternion format. I believe that Tom Bearden is saying that the quaternion format contained physics which has now been removed from modern electromagnetism. Everybody knows that the aether has been removed from the original Maxwell's equations, but I don't think that this is the point which Tom Bearden is making. Certainly the modern forms no longer include the Lorentz force equation which was in the original eight. But nevertheless, the Lorentz force equation is still front page in the textbooks alongside Maxwell's equations. It certainly hasn't been suppressed as such, but there does seem to have been some kind of veil drawn over its original origins. It sits beside the modern Maxwell's equations as being an extra equation of electromagnetism that is not catered for by Maxwell's equations, yet the primary sources clearly show that it was one of Maxwell's original equations. David Tombe ( talk) 09:07, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
This is beginning to sound like a controversy best dealt with by reference to History and Philosophy of Science academic works.
Fifelfoo (
talk) 09:30, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
Suppose you have a person who works in a profession that requires a government license in order to legally practice the profession in that person's location. (If it matters, assume we're talking about the United States.)
// ⌘macwhiz ( talk) 02:50, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
Hopefully a simple one.
The truth: the company known as Metaswitch Networks is commonly known as Metaswitch. If you look through journals and articles discussing the company or the company's own website, this is quite rapidly obvious. However, I can't find a source that explicitly says "Metaswitch Networks, commonly Metaswitch", and I'm wary that just putting it in the article based on it being what everyone else does falls afoul of WP:SYN.
Options I can see:
Any advice?
I don't think it's particularly relevant here, but for avoidance of doubt: I'm an employee of Metaswitch; the article talk page and my user page have more COI details.
— me_ and 18:11, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
One editor has persisted in retrenching unsourced and highly OR/synth materials to this page, which doesn't really have a reason to exist distinct from List of Chinatowns in the United States#California. It obsesses over modern "suburban Chinatowns" including directories of their businesses, though admitting "none of these are called Chinatown"....historical Chinatowns in Southern California (on the list page) are passed over entirely....there has been an edit war of sorts, stopping just shy of 3RR, as user:DocOfSoc keeps on reverting deletions of unsourced/OR material "so they can be used as a resource for the Chinatown, Los Angeles page" (in other words, to flesh that page out with original research). On the LA page and the related Monterey Park, California page, there were hosts of citations from wiki-clones, i.e. using wiki material to cite wiki content, though I've replaced those with fact templates (when I perhaps should have deleted the content outright). NB also the AfD at Chinatown patterns in North America, which overlaps with the Chinatown list pages and teh main Chinatown page, and also with Chinatowns in Canada and the United States. Part of the big problem, as with Koreatown, is the OR extension of the meaning of Chinatown to allegedly inclucde anywhere that has Chinese stores and/or residents.....I decided to come here after looking over the burgeoning content on the Southern California page, and am troubled by the idea that rank OR/synth/uncited material would be preserved solely as a "resource" to expand another article. Somewhere between confabulation and conflation and also sins of omission (e.g. of San Luis Obispo's and Calico's historical Chinatowns, among others), this page is one of many ethnic-vanity pages needed deletion or serious editing/pruning. Skookum1 ( talk) 03:00, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
Would like some second opinions over on the biography article on Weston Price. (No, this has nothing to do with Quackwatch or Barrett). Background: Price is a dentist that did research in the 1920s that supported the extraction of infected teeth over performing root canals (also called endodontic therapy) because of this research supported a theory that mouth infections could cause systemic diseases like rheumatoid arthritis called focal infection theory. His experiments and this theory later fell out of favor in the 1940s. Recently a couple of anti-root canals books [21] [22] have been published that resurrected Price's research against root canal as a source. I found a textbook on root canals ( Ingle's Endodontics) and added some information with regards to Price and root canal from both historical and modern perspectives ( diff) sourced mainly to that textbook. The textbook clearly state that the dental and medical communities reject "focal infection theory" as it related to root canals.
Other editors are now trying to add information to this biography article saying that "focal infection theory" may not be totally discredited; however the information they're trying to add does not mention Price or root canals. This seems to me a clear cut case of WP:SYNTH and WP:COATRACK, as it appears to be trying to discuss the theory in general, when the article only speaks about it in the context of root canals and Price. I note again, none of the sources for this additional information even mention Price once. Outside opinions appreciated. Yobol ( talk) 22:44, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
I don't agree that Ingle's book is a reliable source as it via People's Medical Publishing House out of China whose reliability is unknown to us and it is both supported and contradicted by other reliable sources both past and present:
"Many Authorities who formally felt that focal infection was an important etiologic factor in systemic disease have become skeptical and now recommend less radical procedures in the treatment of such disorders" ("An Evaluation of the Effect of Dental Focal Infection on Health" JADA 42:609-697 June 1951)
"His books on Focal Infection are masterpieces. But the work for which he will always be remembered has to do with Human Nutrition." ((1951) Modern nutrition: Volumes 4-7 American Academy of Nutrition pg 32)
"Much of the clinical evidence supporting the focal infection theory is of the case-report type." (Burket, Lester William (1971) "Oral medicine; diagnosis and treatment") ((1951) Modern nutrition: Volumes 4-7 American Academy of Nutrition pg 32)
"Grossman believes that foci of infection, where in the mouth or elsewhere, should be removed (...) Elimination of such foci does not, however, necessarily mean surgical removal since infection may also be eliminated by destruction with antiseptics or antibiotics" (E.R. Squibb & Sons (1956) Dental infections: treatment and prophylaxis; Page 46)
"The allergic condition called angioneurotic edema may be related to food allergy, hypersensitivity, local or focal infection, and endocrine or emotional disturbances." (United States. Dept. of the Army (1971) Dental specialist: Sept. 20, 1971: Part 1 - Page 5-14)
"It is becoming more validated that the oral cavity can act as the site of origin for spread of pathogenic organisms to organisms to distance body areas,..." (Saraf (2006) Textbook of Oral Pathology Jaypee Brothers Medical Publishers pg 188)
"...in spite of lack of scientific evidence the dental focal infection theory never died (O'Reilly (2000) "A history of Oral sepsis as a cause of disease" Periodentel 2000 23:13-18; Pallashe TJ (2000) "The focal infection theory: appraisal and reappraisal" California Dental Association Journal 28: 194-200) (Bergenholtz, Gunnar Preben; Hørsted-Bindslev, Claes Reit putlich (2009) Textbook of Endodontology Wiley page 135-136)
"This is why the dental and medical communities are cautiously reconsidering the biological plausibility of the 'focal infection' theory." (Henderson, Brian; Michael Curtis, Robert Seymour (2009) "Periodontal Medicine and Systems Biology", Wiley; Page 33)
(2001) Fowler, Edward B "Periodontal disease and its association with systemic disease" Military Medicine (Jan 2001)) provides an insane amount of references on focal infection from 1989 to the then present.
Yobol seems to have overlooked the fact that Ingle's book is by the USA branch of People's Medical Publishing House. They also put out books on borderline practices like Acupuncture, Moxibustion & Tuina( Traditional Chinese Medicine on the USA site) This coupled with conflicts with books by the American Academy of Nutrition, Southern California State Dental Association, US Army, Wiley, and Jaypee Brothers Medical Publishers, as well as apparent total ignorance of all focal infection research from 1986 to 2007 I cannot regard Ingle's as a reliable source and am restoring the material to the way it was.-- BruceGrubb ( talk) 06:10, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
What happened to Yobol? -- THE FOUNDERS INTENT PRAISE GOOD WORKS 12:43, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
One of the issues as I tried to explain on the talk page is there doesn't seem to be a clear and definite difference in terms of functional concept between the focal infection 100 years ago and what is being suggested now.
"In the gastro intestinal tract the esophagus, stomach and intestine are seldom subject to focal infection, but two appendages of the tract arc frequently involved, namely, the gall-bladder and appendix." 1910 The Journal of the Indiana State Medical Association: Volume 3 Page 54.
"Goiter, appendicitis, gall-bladder infection, and skin eruptions, such as herpes zoster and acne, bronchial asthma, and the anemias, are all included among those conditions where foci of infection are often suspect as being the most important etiologic factor" ((1918 The Surgical clinics of Chicago Volume 2, Issue 6; Page 1146)
"All focal infection is not of dental origin, but a sufficiently large percentage is to demand a careful study of the mouth and teeth in all cases of the mouth and teeth in all cases of systemic infection, for in these cases all foci should be removed." (1918) Dental summary: Volume 38; Page 437)
"The hypothesis which assumes the causative connection between the primary focus and the secondary lesion is called the "focal infection theory." (Stillman, Paul Roscoe (1922) A Textbook of clinical periodontia; Page 111)
"One cannot deny the existence of such a mechanism as operates in focal infection, ie, infection in one locus leading to manifestations elsewhere in the body. One has but to call to mind the metastases that occur in such infections as tuberculosis, gonorrhea, syphilis, pneumonia, typhoid fever, and mumps. I cannot support the statement in the "critically appraised" report on dental foci of infection that "later laboratory workers were unable to confirm the bacteriologic findings of Rosenow on which the concept of 'elective localization'" ((1952) Southern California State Dental Association journal)
"It is becoming more validated that the oral cavity can act as the site of origin for spread of pathogenic organisms to organisms to distance body areas,..." (Saraf (2006) Textbook of Oral Pathology Jaypee Brothers Medical Publishers pg 188)
Other than how primarily a role it plays in disease there doesn't seem to be that much difference from the focal infection theory of 1910 and the one of 2007 or if there is the reliable source material is doing a really bad job explaining it to us layman editors.-- BruceGrubb ( talk) 18:41, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
I originally asked this at WT:NOR, but this may be a more appropriate venue, I'm not sure.
Is there any sort of transitive rule of synthesis? For instance, if source #1 says that A is B, and source #2 says that B is C, is it synthesis to say that A is C? For a more concrete example, if source #1 says that "all mammals are warm blooded", and source #2 says that "all cats are mammals", would it be considered synthesis to say that "cats are warm blooded"? A bit confused as to whether these types of transitive scenarios were meant to be excluded as synthesis. ← George talk
I think this is a simple matter of checking 12 sentences to see whether the current or proposed version better conforms to the sources. However, I have dealt with one editor who steadfastly affirms the opposite version to mine, and several editors in various fora who have declined to read the sources. I have now lined up current, proposed, and source versions, with links, to make it as easy as possible. There is an unparalleled high heat-light ratio, but I hope the primary issues are boiled down at that link. Please chip in, thank you. JJB 12:44, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
Sorry JJ, I'll stop trying to predict your behaviour. For everyone else: John is sincere, he really does believe that the sources quoted in the article don't back up what the article says. So I support his coming here for third-party input. I do, however, rather doubt that many of you are going to be be willing to go through all 12 sentences that are currently causing him distress. To makle it easier, can I suggest we take them one by one? I'll paste in the first sentence that John has problems with, and the source it's based on, and you can look at it and say "yes" or "no" as you see fit. Number 1: "This Israel, identified as a people, was probably located in the northern part of the central highlands." (A word of explanation: the sentence is talking about a reference to an entity named as "Israel" in a 13th century BC inscription from Egypt - hence the phrase "this Israel". The inscription doesn't say exactly where "this Israel" was. John is querying our statement that it was most probably in "the northern part of the central highlands" of modern Palestine/Israel. See page 38 of the source: Niels Peter Lemche, "The Israelites in History and Tradition" (Westminster John Knox, 1998) pp.35-8) So, does the source say northern part of central highlands, yes or no? Answers please on a postcard, or else put them here... PiCo ( talk) 08:40, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
The second challenge (aka point 8) is I would delete "At the same time the highlands, previously unpopulated, were beginning to fill with villages" as not found in source McNutt pp. 69-70; McNutt says the villages were previously populated. This was recognized as faulty and changed to "almost unpopulated", but that still does not fully address the issue. McNutt does not speak of a previously unpopulated land; she speaks of villagers, who left archaeological remains, and others, who did not, so she does not comment on nonvillage population; her only relevant comment seems to be that a majority of villages were not previously occupied. The WP:BURDEN is on the maintainer, and this sentence is not in source pp. 69-70 as claimed. Comments? JJB 17:25, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
Outside editors can still get the first crack if they act now on the verification check at Discussion 10-11! I am sorry to say that this board has so far generated zero editors who were not previously involved with me. Its only consolation has been that every new board at least seems to ratchet some recalcitrant editor a bit forward in advancing the discussion. Okay, I just need to find about seven more boards. Anyone? Anyone? JJB 05:11, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
All sources (including The World Factbook, Library of Congress Country Studies, Encyclopedia Britannica, Center for Applied Linguistics, etc.) state that the Tajik ethnic group in Afghanistan is 25-27%. [23] [24] [25] User:Tajik believes this is wrong and wants to raise it to 37-38% [26] by using opinion polls in which between around 1,000 to 6,000 invdividuals were selected and asked questions relating to how things are since the start of the latest US-led war in their country. [27] [28] Among many questions, one question at the end was asked the 1,000-6,000 volunteers to state their ethnicity and User:Tajik wants to use the result of that opinion poll to reflect as the total ethnic percentages of Afghanistan's 28 million people, although the survey was conducted in the city of Kabul, which has higher % of Tajiks than other places of the country. I believe User:Tajik's edits regarding this is original research or original synthesis because I've looked everywhere online but cannot find a single source mentioning Tajiks over 27%. We've also had a discussion on this topic at Talk:Afghanistan#Ethnic groups. I want to know if I'm right on this, and need an advice on what shall be done, thanks.-- Jrkso ( talk) 02:35, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
Just a note: Jrkso put his answers directly into the previous discussion, hence the chronology is lost. My answers are not directed at him, as it appears. He simply did not follow the rules of discussion. As for Jrkso's claims: I have already explained that I consider the two polls as additional sources, not as mere "facts". They are representative polls (as far as possible in Afghanistan), at least one of them conducted by very reliable institutions. Whatever the original purpose has been: the numbers reflect the previous numbers, they neither disprove nor replace the older ones. They are, so far, the most recent numbers we have from Afghanistan. All other numbers, be it the CIA Factbook or Britannica, are only guesses and are not based on any actual survey or official numbers. Jrkso's edits are notorious for being problematic. He has just been caught directly falsifying sources with the attempt to mislead the reader. See my comments on the talk page of Afghanistan. Regards. Tajik ( talk) 19:42, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
“ | This report presents the findings of the single-largest, comprehensive public opinion poll conducted in Afghanistan. The survey was conducted by The Asia Foundation between June and August, 2006 and consisted of a random, representative sample of 6226 in-person interviews with Afghan citizens 18 years of age and above resident in Afghanistan (see Appendix 1). The survey sample was divided first according to urban and rural characteristics of Afghanistan.1 The universe is divided into seven geographical regions consisting of 34 provinces out of which 32 provinces were covered in the survey. Uruzgan, representing 1.1 percent of the population of Afghanistan, and Zabul, representing 1.2 percent, were excluded from the sampling plan due to extreme security conditions during the fieldwork period of the survey. The margin of sampling error is 2.5 percent. | ” |
I need a second opinion at Talk:Masonic Hall (Wickenburg, Arizona) ... the text of the article (without citations) reads:
The Masonic Hall in Wickenburg, Arizona was built in 1922. It served historically as a clubhouse. The building "is noteworthy as a rare local example of the concrete frame with brick infill method of construction." The building was listed on the National Register of Historic Places in 1986. At that time it was the location of Montgomery Ward department store. The Masonic group in Wickenburg was the Hassayampa Lodge No. 37, which merged with Peoria Lodge No. 31, located in Peoria on June 6, 2005.
The sentence in question is italicized above, and is cited to this website... there are other sources for other statements. Unfortunately, what we don't have (and I think need) is a source that explicitly links Hassayampa lodge to the historic building in any way. There is a source (not used at the moment) that shows that the lodge has met elsewhere in the town... so Hassayampa was certainly A Masonic group in Wickenberg (we don't know if it was The Masonic group).
My feeling is that it is a plausible assumption that Hassayampa met in the historic building at some point in its history... but we don't know this for sure, and it is equally plausible that some other lodge met in the historic building (some towns do have more than one lodge). So... the question is... does mentioning Hassayampa Lodge create an implied conclusion that Hassayampa was the lodge that met in the historic building... and would this be a WP:SYNT vio. or some other form of OR? Blueboar ( talk) 13:37, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
The Masonic Hall in Wickenburg, Arizona was built in 1922. It served historically as a clubhouse.[1]
The building "is noteworthy as a rare local example of the concrete frame with brick infill method of construction."[2]
The building was listed on the National Register of Historic Places in 1986.[1] At that time it was the location of a Montgomery Ward department store.[2]
A Masonic group in Wickenburg was the Hassayampa Lodge No. 37, which merged with Peoria Lodge No. 31, located in Peoria on June 6, 2005.[3]
I'd like to hear views on whether or not Lord Macaulay's book, 'The History of England' [33] is a reliable source in relation to the Massacre of Glencoe. I have included here a link to the wikipedia article about this book. The wikipedia article states a view which I do not agree with. It claims that Lord Macaulay goes to considerable lengths to absolve King William III from any responsibility for the Glencoe Massacre. That is not my reading of the situation. Macaulay clearly condemns King William's role, and in particular the fact that he was guilty of "a great breach of duty" in shielding the Master of Stair from any punishment beyond dismissal from the secretaryship of Scotland. Macaulay of course blamed the Master of Stair for the atrocity, which is view held jointly by both the Whigs and the Tories.
The question centres around the role of the Campbells in the atrocity. Macaulay makes it clear that the plot was hatched up between the Master of Stair, Breadalbane, and Argyll, the latter two being senior members of the clan Campbell. The plan was executed by Glenlyon, who was a Campbell, in circumstances of revolting treachery of which even the Master of Stair did not contemplate.
As regards Macaulay's book, it is a history classic written in the 19th century, 160 years after the event. And even though it is a well known fact that William was Macaulay's hero, and that Macaulay was a Whig who supported the Williamite settlement, Macaulay nevetherless rebukes William's role in the affair, while pointing out that William had never intended the treacherous manner in which the plan was executed by Glenlyon.
As regards the article, Massacre of Glencoe, there is a gaping omission by virtue of which the Campbells have been completely erased from any culpability in the affair, even though Hamilton and Glenlyon were specifically chosen to carry out the plan, because it was necessary to choose people who would be eager to carry out the plan. For the same reason, Colonel Hill at Fortwilliam was dropped from the plan because he was considered by Livingstone to be too humane.
What I want to know is, if Macaulay's book makes it quite clear that the Campbells were heavily involved in the plan, can we use the book as a reliable source for the purpose of verification of this fact? David Tombe ( talk) 20:42, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
I've been encountering an editor and an anon IP contributor who insist on adding in in-universe dates for various Man Men episodes. I've argued in discussion that since the episodes themselves are not dated (ie, July 3, 1963, etc.), any application of an editor's historical knowledge constitutes synthesis and original research. They are arguing that the knowledge is common and uncontested. Without citation as to these dates, we are being asked to reply upon one editor's Sherlocking of the episode to glean the date, which I don't think we allow. As well, I personally disagree with a number of these date insertions. I've pointedly asked that either of the users supply reliable sourcing of these dates, to resolve the problem; as yet, they have been unable to so so. Thoughts? - Jack Sebastian ( talk) 20:16, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
Aurelstein, you keep trying to reframe the question. The matter before us regards original research and synthesis. We are an encyclopedia - we do not allow you to place your opinions or assessments about a topic within an article - it is one of the most basic principles of Wikipedia. For this reason, your categorization of Mad Men as a work of art actually works against you. In the same way that we are not allowed to assess how (or even who) the
Mona Lisa was painted without citation, we are not allowed to assess or determine aspects of the series (ie. dates of each episode). That is a plain and simple fact, arrived at by even the most casual of interpretations of our policies.
The criterion I note - that you find so terribly stringent - is that in order to mention the dates that you think that the episode occurred during - require citation by a reliably-sourced reference. Everything in Wikipedia does. Additionally, as Mad Men's own production blog fails to mention these dates, it can be reasonably determined that the only ones who feel the dates of the episodes are important are but a small group of fans. Indeed, its the same three or four people that keep commenting about how this is all child's play and connecting the dots.
You point to a viewing within the episode of less than 1.3 seconds of a baby's birth certificate and expect us to consider this primary research. Find a citation; if this is all so very very important to an understanding of the article, then it should be out there. If it is not, please consider that you are asking us to provide
undue weight to the date. As any regular viewer of the program would tell you, the background events hardly/barely/rarely determine the story within each episode.
You keep mentioning the JFK assassination and election; the former which - after many requests, someone was finally willing to roll up their sleeves and find. That is to be commended. Insisting that we trust your instincts and detective skills is absolutely not. -
Jack Sebastian (
talk) 14:51, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
These topics and lists are a horrid morass of WP:NOR, but certainly guessing "in-universe" dates of events would be more egregious examples. The primary events portrayed in these shows clearly did not happen in reality, but rather are a work of fiction; therefore, one cannot take for granted that any events in these shows correspond exactly with actual history. Perhaps it's all some alternate history, who knows? Stick to what reliable, secondary sources say. There's been plenty written about Mad Men, go and use that material. Jayjg (talk) 06:02, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
Most of this appears to be original research. Phrases like "Her succession, under this theory, " make it obvious, as do footnotes 5 and 6. Sources 2, 3 and 4 also look unreliable. Dougweller ( talk) 08:17, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
Hi, I'm having some trouble deciding whether this would be counted as original research or not;
There is a piece of text on the
John Abbey article, "He was a apprentice for James and David Davis, and later for Hugh Russell after 1818." (
ref) - This isn't very informative in it's current state and placement.
I would like to add extra information to this - "In his youth he was a apprentice for James and David Davis, and later for Hugh Russel after 1818, both reputable organ builders in their day." (bolded text
ref) - would this count as original research, if not: how would I structure the inline citations. Thank you --
George2001hi
(Discussion) 22:01, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
The basic problem the article White Argentine is that mixes different things. The main editor of the article, according to an interesting point of view, exposes his own personal research. In fact, he work also in the website that he used as a reference. He tried to did it on wikipedia in spanish, but the article was erased by them [34]. The author put together some things from the article Ethnography of Argentina with other part of Immigration to Argentina, to sustain his hypothesis of the existence of a different ethnic group born from the interweaving of different European ethnic groups in Argentina, called "White argentinian". In fact, put in the same group Arabs and Turks, with Germans and Anglo-saxons people, among others, according to ancient theory of physical anthropology, now lapsed. Adding a lot of unnecessary information about politics, music, culture and sports, which is the reproduction of articles about politics, music and sport in Argentina. However, would be different if the article was only about the term, more or less widespread, which brings together in an ambiguous way all Argentines with a some European origin. In this sense, it should be changed the whole article. In other words exist the "term" but don't exist the ethnic group, do you understand?. I know I don't write well in English. But, if you really want a list of the specific problems of your article, when I have a bit more free time, I will tell you. Otherwise, I just let this observations, hoping someday this article will be reviewed with common sense. Regards. G.-- 79.43.220.9 ( talk) 20:39, 5 November 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.239.210.248 ( talk)
I'm having a disagreement about an article I revamped about a controversial conservative commentator named Heather Mac Donald. Another editor is challenging my additions, claiming that when I quote Mac Donald, it's a primary source. Here's an example:-- Tomwsulcer ( talk) 00:14, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
“ | Secular conservatism. Mac Donald identifies herself as a secular conservative, and argued in USA Today that conservative thinking is superior to liberalism by virtue of the ideas alone, and that religion should not affect the argument. [2] | ” |
Alfeyev
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).... It is a proven track record that makes conservative principles superior to liberalism, not the religious inclinations of their proponents.
What I'm wondering is: is this an instance of a strictly primary source? Consider that Heather Mac Donald is a commentator. USA Today is a newspaper. USA Today chose to print Mac Donald's views. It's not like Mac Donald wrote something on her own website and I'm quoting it. Rather, there's a reliable publication (a secondary source?) printing Mac Donald's views, saying, in effect, that her views (while controversial) are important, worthy of print, relevant to debate on this topic. If USA prints unreliable or boring commentators, it could lose circulation and respect. Isn't USA Today adding a little weight to the source here? But at the same time, I agree quoting Mac Donald is not a true secondary source -- it's not critic X said Y about Mac Donald (which we all agree is best). My question is: isn't this a case where the source is in that gray area between primary and secondary?-- Tomwsulcer ( talk) 00:14, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
Here's the problem from another angle. How can any of us write any biographies (particularly about commentators) without ever quoting what the article subject says? As a writer, I'm trying to describe Mac Donald. Why is she notable? Her views. What views are they? Well, what? Here I'm stuck -- if I'm forced to rely only on what other reviewers SAY are her views, I don't think that would be a reliable way to describe them. Why not quote her directly? I think it's perfectly acceptable to have a mix of her views, and views of others (ie real secondary sources), in a mix, and assume that the reader is intelligent enough to know which is which.-- Tomwsulcer ( talk) 00:14, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
Look at current WP articles on commentators. George Will, Jim Cramer, Liz Cheney, Maureen Dowd, Bill Maher, Jonathan Alter, Charles Krauthammer. These are generally good articles. And they ALL have references quoting the commentator saying something. And not just sporadic references, but MANY references. George Will said this. Bill Maher said that. And I think the references are helpful. IF the "no primary sources" rule is strictly enforced, most of these articles would have to be gutted. What I'm saying is that the de facto standard, particularly regarding biographies on commentators, is that it's perfectly reasonable to include direct quotes when handled responsibly, that it requires judgment, while I agree that secondary sources are preferred.-- Tomwsulcer ( talk) 00:14, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
To discuss how this policy applies to the Heather Mac Donald article, please continue the discussion at the No original research/Noticeboard. Thanks-- SaskatchewanSenator ( talk) 01:46, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
We have a dispute at List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming, where editors believe that we can invent a new scheme to classify the beliefs of living people in such a way that it might not be synthesis/original research. Implied in the discussion is that we would still classify scientists by finding quotations and matching these quotations to category headings. It is suggested that scientists whose views span multiple categories could be resolved using a matrix system.
I have the view that inventing a new scheme to classify the beliefs of living people is pretty obviously contrary to WP:NOR and WP:BLP but other experienced editors think this might be OK.
Anyone willing to give their opinions? Alex Harvey ( talk) 11:28, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
Hello, I write here because I need a clarification about the use of sources (specially the primary ones) in the article Beatrice of Portugal. On September 27, I made a deletion of content [37] per WP: PRIMARY, and on October 9, I explained the reasons. The next day User:Jorge alo, restored it adding two sources that do not support the wording, because the wording of the article displays his own interpretation. Thus: [38]
I could remove such edition and re-explain it to him, but in wikipedia in Spanish Jorge alo insisted on a edit warring resolved by an administrator [40] on the basis of his misuse of primary sources. To avoid a edit warring, I need an opinion more qualified about this issue of NOR, since in the wiki in french Jorge alo gave me all kinds of insults, [41] and there is no way of making him understand the policies of wikipedia. Regards. Trasamundo ( talk) 20:07, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
Could some editors please chime in on this discussion? A new editor wants to use her own transcriptions of British National Archives documents in Latin to source a biography article on Edward de Vere, 17th Earl of Oxford. I don't have the firmest grasp of policy, so advice from more experienced editors would be appreciated. Tom Reedy ( talk) 15:11, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
I'm posting this discussion on behalf of another editor Alinor ( talk · contribs) who seemingly refuses to come to the noticeboard to discuss a clear difference in interpretation of a source.
The source in question is Francis Boyle's Palestine, Palestinians and International Law (2009), which states the following:
As I had predicted to the PLO, the creation of [a] Palestinian State was an instantaneous success. Palestine would eventually achieve de jure diplomatic recognition from about 130 states. The only regional hold-out was Europe and this was because of massive political pressure applied by the United States Government.
According to User:Alinor, Boyle is making a prediction that Palestine would eventually be recognised by 130 states, and therefore raised issue with what is currently written in the article that "In 2009, Boyle reported that about 130 countries had recognised the State of Palestine."
There's a preliminary discussion located here. Nightw 14:30, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
This discussion appears to have migrated to the article's talk page. Nightw 09:29, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
Speaking just in terms of grammar, there are indeed two ways of reading the first two sentences:
The first interpretation does not make much sense. Why should the author have predicted the approximate number of state recognising Palestine, rather than a minimal number? What really shoots down this interpretation is the word "eventually", which indicates that the number of states recognising Palestine is not going to change substantially either way even in the future. That would be an extremely unusual claim to make, and it did not turn out to be correct since we simply can't know this yet.
The second interpretation is much more natural, and in fact the way the source phrases it is merely a stylistic improvement over the formulation under 2. I have no doubt that this is what is meant by the source. Hans Adler 12:05, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
Great. The issue has been resolved. A sincere thank you to all who commented here. Nightw 17:14, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
An article on the topic of the Homosexuals Anonymous program was recently posted and nominated for DYK. I considered it extremely POV and advertisement-like (there was virtually no criticism). In working on the article, I have been accused of violating WP:SYNTH (see the talk page), which led me to work in the quiet of my user space. I have now (just) posted a new version, and I invite comment / criticism / feedback / changes on the new version, with particular concerns about NPOV, NOR, and SYNTH. Thanks. EdChem ( talk) 16:06, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
Related to an issue previously discussed in another thread above, a lengthy debate has developed at Foreign relations of the Palestinian National Authority between myself and another editor, Alinor ( talk · contribs).
The argument, as it has degraded into, is over a recently added section entitled "Overview", which contradicts the data displayed in the rest of the article. The main point of concern is the following conflicting statements:
The first statement, which I recently changed to "at least 104 states" to address concerns I'd had with its conclusiveness, is derived from calculations of multiple reliable sources. Without the recently added "at least", this statement contradicts different figures cited by respected legal professionals: "over 114" (Boyle, 1990); "more than 100" (Fowler and Bunck, 1995); "117" (Anat Kurz, 2005); "about 130" (Boyle, 2010); "about 126" (Boyle, 2010).
The second statement comes from the fact that, according to one reference, many statements of recognition were "equivocal" in nature. It is also, in my opinion, plainly obvious from the level of disagreement between sources citing a number (above), and therefore necessary.
So the question is: Is it original research to claim that a situation is unclear when multiple sources disagree? Do we need a source that states that the situation is unclear? Nightw 13:12, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
About the alleged contradiction between the sources. First, the Fowler and Bunck 1995 source statement is retrospective: p. 59: "By 1988 more than one hundred countries had formally recognized the 'state' of Palestine, which also received official acknowledgement by the United Nations General Assembly.", e.g. this is not for 1995. Second, most of these sources don't use "exact number", but ranges ("over X", "about X", etc.) and some of them overlap (e.g. don't contradict each other). Third, they are for different moments in time - and state recognitions are not constant - they change over time - so it is highly probable that some states gave/withdraw recognition in the time between the sources. It should be noted that the only "exact numbers" given are 117 (Anat Kurz 2005) and 127 (Boyle 2010).
Boyle "over 114" (1990) doesn't disagree with Anat Kurz 117 (2005). Boyle "about 130/126" from 2009/2010 and the Boyle 127 from 2010 doesn't disagree. Boyle "over 114" doesn't disagree with Boyle "about 130/126"/127. So the only potential disagreement is between the "exact" Anat Kurz 117 (2005) and Boyle 127 (2010) - but maybe 10 additional states recognized for these 5 years - the sources we have neither confirm nor deny that.
The number is not "unknown"/"unclear" - it is unknown/unclear only to us, the Wikipedia users - because we have inconclusive sources (e.g. the 117/127 no-specific-list vs. the sources showing recognition by 103 undisputed up to 111 - 8 inconclusive). An example for "unknown number" is the Age of the universe, but the number of SoP recognitions is not unknown/unclear - it is only that we don't have simultaneously reliable+exact+specific+recent sources about it. The SoP itself ( PLO as its government in exile) should know it pretty well (does it have a website?). Alinor ( talk) 14:43, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
So, I propose that we avoid making statements like "number is unknown/unclear", "sources contradict each other" (unless we have a source actually showing such thing) - and that instead we stick to wordings like "In 1988 the PLO declared the State of Palestine, being quite widely recognised by states, although often in equivocal terms." that more closely resembles this reference cite above. Alinor ( talk) 14:48, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
This page is an archive. Do not edit the contents of this page. Please direct any additional comments to the current main page. |
Editor Esoglou took 5 different sources and cherry picked what they said to merge them together to make it appears as though they are opposed to the theology that some of them actually teach. 1.Diff [1]
" [1]
ROCOR Diocese of Great Britain and Ireland
Please note none of these sources say what the editor is attributing to them. None of these sources specifically say the Orthodox teaching on hell is that Hell is separation from God. The last source actually when speaking directly to that question states what is considered the Orthodox position (which is Hell and Heaven are the condition of a person in the presences of God).
Regarding specific conditions of after-life existence and eschatology, Orthodox thinkers are generally reticent; yet two basic shared teachings can be singled out. First, they widely hold that immediately following a human being's physical death, his or her surviving spiritual dimension experiences a foretaste of either heaven or hell. (Those theological symbols, heaven and hell, are not crudely understood as spatial destinations but rather refer to the experience of God's presence according to two different modes.) Thinking Through Faith: New Perspectives from Orthodox Christian Scholars page 195 By Aristotle Papanikolaou, Elizabeth H. Prodromou [2] LoveMonkey ( talk) 16:06, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
This issue keeps cropping up over in the edit war-zone of I/P articles and I wanted another opinion on the issue. When are editor made graphs and tables not OR? The example in question is here. There's no direct link to these figures compiled in the same manner by an outside source. It appears to be the work of an editor who has culled information from separate sources to create the table. The problem is compounded by some sources not giving straight numbers but instead a list of incidents, some that would be included in the table and others that would not.
So, NOR/N wizards, when can editors make graphs and tables of existing information? Does it violate Synthesis if it comes from multiple sources but not if from a single source? Or is it straight up OR to rearrange statistics/data in any manner not done by an outside source? Many thanks, Sol ( talk) 00:57, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
Talk:Roman_Catholic–Eastern_Orthodox_theological_differences#Intervention_by_Andrew_Lancaster The Editor Esoglou is attempting to force into the above article the idea that there is agreement between the two theologies of the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholic church based not on Roman Catholic official sources and directly against Eastern Orthodox representatives, sources. The editor Esoglou continually does not like what sources (Orthodox theologians) have said about the differences between the churches and continues to wiki hound and edit war and go against consensus in order to deny or discredit or under mine what the sources posted in the article say. Please look at the Talk:Roman_Catholic–Eastern_Orthodox_theological_differences#Orthodox_Church_of_America section for example.
The Editor Esoglou is doing this not by posting Roman Catholic sources or any sources information but by creating counter sources in misrepresenting Orthodox sources. Also Esoglou is wiki hounding by misusing source tagging requests and also not listening to corrects pointed out to by editors to the article other than just me. LoveMonkey ( talk) 14:12, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
There is a dispute as to whether or not certain material is synthesis at the article Judaization of Jerusalem. The material in question is in this diff. AMuseo argues that it is "inappropriate" to have an article on Judaization efforts by the Israeli government and not include what he feels is important material related to religious freedom. Two users, Tiamut and myself, argue that sources must relate that material to the topic of the article. Is it OR to include material that sources do not relate to the topic of the article? nableezy - 15:24, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
Hi, I've been having a content dispute with Humaliwalay, who keeps inserting that 25-49% of Lebanon's population is Shi'a. Before their addition, the article stated that approximately 28% of Lebanon's population was Shi'a, cited to this 2008 State Department report, which states that "the most recent demographic study conducted by Statistics Lebanon, a Beirut-based research firm, showed 28 percent of the population is Sunni Muslim, 28 percent Shi'a Muslim, 22 percent Maronite Christian, 8 percent Greek Orthodox, 5 percent Druze, and 4 percent Greek Catholic." To support their addition, they cite this report by the Pew Research Center, which gives a range of "1-2 million" Shi'a in Lebanon. Humaliwalay is combining that range with Lebanon's total estimated population of only 4 million, to create the 25-49% figure. First, that seems like pure synthesis to me. Second, right below the chart that gives the 1-2 million range, the Pew report itself states that "The figures for Shias are generally given in a range because of the limitations of the secondary-source data... Figures may not sum to totals due to rounding." I view the information as synthesized, and I see no reason to include it, as it is less accurate and older than the State Department's estimates. Thoughts? ← George talk 05:36, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
Several editors have expressed concern that the entire article may be WP:SYTH violation. I invite others to look over it and make comments on it. Two ANI threads and a RFC have been the result of this dispute. The Resident Anthropologist ( talk) 13:27, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
I believe that the article Palestinian drive-by shooting is largely filled with improper synthesis of published material and have tagged the article and opened a section on the talk page to discuss it. The tag has been edit-warred out of the article but what I feel is synthesis remains. Could editors who understand the rules on synthesis please comment at Talk:Palestinian drive-by shooting#synthesis? Thank you, nableezy - 21:28, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
A question has come up here about the creation of a coat of arms which is then presented in an article as "the coat of arms" of the subject, how much artistic license is acceptable in that creation, and what might be regarded as original research. Since this is not a subject I'm at all familiar with, and so far I'm the only one talking to the editor who uploaded the coat of arms, I'd appreciate some comments on that thread. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 05:15, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
Is the lead for this article properly supported by the source or does it present an original interpretation? The source itself does not use the term "Communist/communist", let alone define or even refer to "Communist/communist terrorism". (The source itself is considered reliable.)
WP Article: "Communist terrorism, state and dissident, is terrorism committed by various movements that claimed adherence to the doctrines of Karl Marx, both during the revolutionary struggle and also in the consolidation of power after victory".
Source: "Marxist socialism was pragmatic and revolutionary. It was action oriented and was adopted by many revolutionary leaders and movements throughout the 20th century. For example, Vladimie Ilich Lenin in Russia, Mao Zedong in China, Ho Chi Minh in Vietnam, and Fidel Castro in Cuba all based their revolutionary doctrines on Marx's precepts. Terrorism, both state and dissident, was used during these revolutions and during the consolidations of power after victory." [3]
TFD ( talk) 18:49, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
The book cited by TFD above [4], and which he asserts is reliable, is extensively cited in TFD's other favourite book, has a good coverage of communist terrorism so I'm not sure why Fifelfoo thinks it is not an adequate citation. -- Martin ( talk) 06:02, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
User:Ryulong says this info: "As with all previous Power Rangers series, Samurai uses the costumes from one of the many Super Sentai Series; Power Rangers: Samurai uses said items from 2009's Samurai Sentai Shinkenger." in the Power Rangers: Samurai article and this info "Its costumes will be used for the American series Power Rangers: Samurai." in the Samurai Sentai Shinkenger article are original research because "By visually comparing the costumes in Shinkenger and the costumes in PR Samurai and saying that they are identical, it is still considered original research to say that the former is the basis for the latter. You don't get to say "Shinkenger" on that page until the ending credits roll on PRS episode 1." [5] I think that info is not original research as the Power Rangers website [6] and a news article from Variety about Power Rangers: Samurai [7] have images that clearly show the Shinkenger costumes. What do you think is this info original research or not? Powergate92 Talk 22:44, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
Do you think this news article would be a reliable enough source for the info? It showed up in a Google News search [9] and it doe's say "The series will be adapted from the 2009 Super Sentai Series, SAMURAI SENTAI SHINKENGER." Powergate92 Talk 05:19, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
"The sky is blue" thing would only apply to the costumes they've shown. Only that bit is patently obvious. NotARealWord ( talk) 08:50, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
There's now an official promo for Power Rangers on MarVista Entertainment website [10] that shows footage from Samurai Sentai Shinkenger when talking about Power Rangers: Samurai. Powergate92 Talk 22:17, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
I think what's being said here is that even though the suits are the same as those in Shinkenger and footage from it has been used in promos, that's not proof that any actual footage will be used in the series itself. There is a possibility, however small, that all footage for the series will be put together by Saban itself. Until the actual series comes along, uses Shinkenger footage, and then credits it, there's no absolute proof that footage will be used. ComputerBox ( talk) 19:48, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
I am currently in a dispute over at Ergun Caner, where I linked to a Youtube video which shows the subject of the article reciting the Shahada incorrectly, while appearing in an expert capacity. I added an edit remarking that he recited it incorrectly.
Given that Caner has presented himself as an expert on Islam, and there has been considerable controversy over whether he has been honest about his past, I think this is highly relevant.
Does any of this count as original research? As I see it, I'm not advancing a position the video itself does not advance - all I'm stating is the fact that he got this phrase wrong, and explaining what the phrase is. Any help would be much appreciated. 90.209.80.240 ( talk) 18:40, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
Requesting additional eyes on Sipuleucel-T as a new user appears deadset on including WP:SYN content regarding the pricing of the drug by pulling in Medicare rules rather than the existing third party sourcing specificly identifying the cost of this treatment. This edit [11] may also indicate that the user has a potential conflict of interest re: cancer treatment articles. Active Banana (bananaphone 19:15, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
Hi experienced wikipedia editors,
I would like to seek your opinions on whether or not a recent edit of mine has violated the "no original research" code of conduct.
Before I start, I present you with a couple of references:
- A discussion in which this is debated
- Disputed figure caption that has been reverted by another user
My argument:
(1) The first sentence of the first disputed caption, was partially reverted. The kept part was "It refers to the islets as the "Senkaku islands in Okinawa"" and the removed part was "without identifying the rightful owner of these islands." It was claimed that the latter is an instance of original research and my view is that it is not. The reason being the removed section is an observation that is equally objective as the kept section. As well, the figure itself had no citation so my stance is that the figure and its entire caption should either be removed or that the entire sentence be kept.
(2) In both captions I appended a sentence that stated the sovereignty status of the referred territories at the referred time. Others claim that it's an instance of synthesis. In some sense one can hypothetically accuse the same of any text with numerous independent facts from different sources by simply citing some arbitrary form of synthesis. I disagree with their views in my case on the grounds that the information provided is simply a general background and did nothing to contradict or alter the point of the previous sentences. At the same time, the information on sovereignty status is crucial because without it may misrepresent the actual contents of the figure. For example, the line about sovereignty status in the second figure will prevent readers from falsely assuming that the Okinawa belonged to Japan at the time when it was in fact in U.S. possession at the time. If we allow that line to be removed, then we run the risk of misleading the readers which may lead to a case of indirect POV pushing. Bobthefish2 ( talk) 06:46, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
Could editors please comment on this posting by an editor at Talk:Communist terrorism, "Quoting passages from Marx and other leading Communists showing that they advocate terrorism does not constitute "original research" by any accepted standard". TFD ( talk) 13:47, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
1. This is not AfD. 2. The argument that it is only nasty anti-communists who add articles is a tad absurd. 3. sourcing issues are dissed on article talk pages. 4. The word "Terrorismus" in German, strangely enough, is translated as "terrorism." German has another word "Terror" for "terro." German and English are not all that different. 5. The question here posed is not answered by any such claims of nasty groups of editors at all. Collect ( talk) 18:32, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
hi i was pointed here. i am in the middle of a discussion at the page for Paraprosdokian, where i think that all of the examples listed count as original research since there are no citations showing that they are actually examples of what the article was about. isnt that what original research is? the writer has to decide if they are truly examples for themselves and this causes a lot of problems where people remove and add only because of what they think not because of anything verifiable. please tell me if im wrong in how i see original research thanks. Aisha9152 ( talk) 15:35, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
This article of "A briefcase alleged to be the nuclear football"--i.e., a briefcase that some Wikipedia editor(s) think is the nuclear football. To me this seems like original research, but it keeps getting added back so other opinions would be useful. Prezbo ( talk) 21:22, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
Isaiah Berlin wrote the following in Karl Marx:
Still comparatively unknown in England, [Marx] had grown abroad into a figure of vast fame and notoriety, regarded by some as the instigator of every revolutionary movement in Europe, the fanatical dictator of a world movement pledged to subvert the moral order, the peace, happiness and prosperity of mankind. By these he was represented as the evil genius of the working class, plotting to sap and destroy the peace and morality of civilized society, systematically exploiting the worst passions of the mob, creating grievances where none existed, pouring vinegar in the malcontents' wounds, exacerbating their relations with their employers in order to create the universal chaos in which everyone would lose, and so finally all would be made level at last, the rich and the poor, the bad and the good, the industrious and the idle, the just and the unjust. Others saw in him the most indefatigable and devoted strategist and tactician of labouring classes everywhere, the infallible authority on all theoretical questions, the creator of an irresistible movement designed to overthrow the prevailing rule of injustice and inequality by persuasion or by violence. To them he appeared as an angry and indomitable modern Moses, the leader and saviour of all the insulted and the oppressed, with the milder and more conventional Engels at his side, an Aaron ready to expound his words to the benighted, half-comprehending masses of the proletariat.
Some editors believe that Berlin was saying there are only two ways to view Marx. My reading of this is that he was saying that the influence of Marx was exaggerated, both by his supporters and by detractors. Does anyone have any other ideas about how to read this? TFD ( talk) 15:41, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
A dispute has arisen over the use of the word "forfeit" as opposed to "lost". It occurred at 2004 European Open (snooker) over the sentence "White lost the frame after three consecutive misses with a red ball in sight". In snooker if a player makes three consecutive misses (and the cue ball is in sight of a red), he automatically loses the frame. The source says that White made three of those misses and consequently lost the frame; the rules are here. Armbrust changed the wording from "forfeit" to "lost", saying that he lost, not forfeited (see here). I reverted explaining that he both lost and forfeited the frame. Discussion went to Armbrust's talk page where I asked if he would agree on "forced to forfeit", but he didn't as there were no reliable sources saying that he forfeited. My position is that "forfeited" is just a dictionary word and we don't need a source to say that when that word accurately describes what happened in the source. Christopher Connor ( talk) 15:33, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
On Talk:Communist terrorism one editor is saying the following is synth, i should like some outside opinions. The Red Brigades was a marxist/leninist urban terrorist group (sic) and most lethal of all communist organizations It is being said that this does not describe them as Communist/communist terrorists and as such it cant be used to have the Red Brigades in the article mark ( talk) 14:50, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
The 1992 book begins "this book examines a particular strain of terrorist group that is found primarily in Western Europe - the 'fighting communist organization' or FCO. For almost a quarter of a century, FCOs have caused politicfal and security problems in Western Europe." The authors were writing about a group of organizations active in the 1970s and 1980s. If we could show that the concept of FCOs had been accepted in the typology of terrorism, then we could write an article called "Fighting communist organizations". Since it has not been accepted, the best we could do is create an article about the book. What we cannot do is change the terminology and then decide to include groups such as the Soviet government that the authors would not have considered to fit into their category. That is why editors should read sources and let them drive article content rather than develop their own theories and seek sources that support them. TFD ( talk) 15:43, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
Wrong noticeboard. We have to discuss it on the WP:NPOVN. The mark's source is reliable, however, other reliable sources exist that call these terrorist groups leftist but not Communist. Since all Communists are leftists, whereas not all leftists are Communists, the story about these terrorist groups belongs to the more general article, namely leftist terrorism, which, for some unexplained reason is currently just a redirect page.-- Paul Siebert ( talk) 19:45, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
I am not really sure if I am in the right place, but the whole "topic" of this article appears to be in violation of some type of Wikipedia policy - WP:POVFORK doesnt quite cover it and I am not sure WP:OR does either - or am I way off base and this is a completely appropriate topic. Active Banana ( bananaphone 20:34, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
WP:OR has been alleged at Famine in India as shown in this diff [12]. The actual content that's the target of the OR allegation can be seen in this diff [13]. The Nobel Prize winner Amartya Sen and European Journal of Development Research Prize winner Olivier Rubin have been used as the sources. A direct like to Google Books or web sites has been provided for easy access and verification. A discussion between the editors can be seen in several sections of the talk page [14]. Is this OR? Zuggernaut ( talk) 03:35, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
The following section is in a edit conflict beween myself and Martin. Is it original research to subtract ICS dates selectively to show repeating interval sets. Is this paragragh original research?
Geologic Chronology
Reference: [1] Snelling 1985 Chronology of the Geologic Record; Boston, Blackwell Scientific Publications. ISBN 0-632-01285-4.
[2] 1991 Kevet, Radan 1991 Complete Periodical Geological Time Table, GeoJournal 24.4 417-420 Kluwer Academic Press.
[3] Rothschild, Adrian 2003, Evolution on Planet Earth, The Impact of the Physical Environment. Academic Press ISBN 0-12-598655-6.
[4] Barrera, Eniqueta, Geology, vol. 22, Issue 10, p.877, Global environmental changes preceding the Cretaceous-Tertiary boundary: Early-late Maastrichtian transition.(unstable temperature 4 to 7Ma before the KT event).
Morbas (
talk) 21:50, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
Thankyou...I need two more positive votes before I dare put the above paragraph back into the article... Morbas ( talk) 02:41, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
At History of Plaid Cymru an editor has added material claiming that Burke's peerage links the Anwyl of Tywyn Family with the now extince House of Aberffraw. His sources do not make this claim. and in fact 3 of the 4 don't even mention the family. His justification is that "I dispute. Burke's Peerage links the direct familial decendents of Owain Gwynedd living today. This is important in the discussion of a restored monarchy in Wales. Source 2 A History of Wales gives more info on the Aberffraw family, their history for Wales, and buttresses Owain Gwynedd and decendents. Source 3 details the laws of succession before the Edwardian Conquest of Wales." (There are 4 sources). One of his references says "^ Lewis, Hurbert; The Ancient Laws of Wales, 1889. Chapter VIII: Royal Succession; Rules to Marriage; Alienation pgs 192–200. According to Hurbert Lewis, though not explicitly codified as such by Hywel Dda, the edling, or Heir apparent, was by convention and custom the eldest son of the prince and entitled to inheirit the position and title as "head of the family" from the father. Effectively primogeniture with local variations. However, all sons were provided for out of the lands of the father and in certin circumstances so too were daughters. Additionally, sons could claim materinal patromony through their mother in certin circumstances." -- no mention of this family at all - at Talk:Anwyl of Tywyn Family where similar claims have been made about the current head of the Anwyl family, he has just said "who is and is not considered a prince/(petty) king is detailed by Herbert Lewis in "The Ancient Laws of Wales" 1889. Chapter VIII: Royal Succession; Rules to Marriage; Alienation pgs 192–200. According to Hurbert Lewis, though not explicitly codified as such by Hywel Dda, the edling, or Heir apparent, was by convention and custom the eldest son of the prince and entitled to inheirit the position and title as "head of the family" from the father. Effectively primogeniture with local variations. However, all sons were provided for out of the lands of the father and in certin circumstances so too were daughters. Additionally, sons could claim materinal patromony through their mother in certin circumstances. By this application, the senior legitimate claimet/pretender to the throne of Gwynedd and Wales is the Anwyl of Tywyn family. My response is that sources much make the specific claim, and despite being asked a number of times neither of the two editors making this claim has brought forward any sources making the claim. (There's another issue in that none of this mentions the history of Plaid Cymru, it's just an argument being added to the article that a certain family should be king if Wales had its own king, but with no sources). Dougweller ( talk) 17:59, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
Alas - all I can think of os The Short Reign of Pippin IV. Collect ( talk) 13:00, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
(an article abour a Tatar cryptolect)
Hi all, This page looks like it may be based on original research - the only supplied link leads to a unrelated page.
I have just the put OR template.
Regards, Borovi4ok
Does the text correctly reflect the source?
TFD ( talk) 03:31, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
I stumbled across Nagualism (Carlos Castaneda) today, and I think it's pretty much all OR. Question is, what to do about it? I'm tempted to bring it to AFD, but thought I'd stop here first for some guidance. -- Nuujinn ( talk) 22:20, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
I don't know if this has been covered before, but are original scientific works considered as a primary or secondary source on the topic they discuss? For example, would Adam Smith's foundational work on economics, The Wealth of Nations, be considered a primary source or secondary source on the topic of economics? What about Charles Darwin's book On the Origin of Species be a primary or secondary source in regard to the theory of evolution? What about Albert Enstein's Relativity: The Special and General Theory? -- Martin ( talk) 19:52, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
Economics should not be considered a scientific discipline, and, moreover, Wealth of the Nations was part of the discourse of 17-19th century political economy, a discourse commonly seen as having a reduced importance, even in contemporary political economy. For economics, it is superceeded, for economic history, it is a primary source. For the economic history of political economists prior to Smith, it is a secondary source, though probably deserving of attribution when used. Fifelfoo ( talk) 06:03, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
Biophys, Thanks for your response. I think that everybody is now pretty well agreed that it is one and the same equation. The problem is that I don't think that there are any secondary sources in existence which draw attention to this fact. Modern physics seems to teach the idea that the Lorentz force originated with Lorentz in the 1890's as an additional electromagnetic equation which compliments Maxwell's equations. And that idea seems to be pretty well ingrained in the scientific community. It is only in recent times, with easy access to on-line copies of Maxwell's original papers that people have started to notice that the Lorentz force equation was already around since at least 1861. See my response below to TFD. David Tombe ( talk) 09:14, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
Biophys, Thanks for your reply. And yes, we would still be calling it the Lorentz force even though everybody now knows that the name is a misnomer. The problem at the article in question has now been largely solved because the facts have now been generally accepted. David Tombe ( talk) 16:12, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
In Maxwell's 1861 paper On Physical Lines of Force, equation (77) is identical to the Lorentz force equation albeit that it is written in cartesian coordinates and split into x, y, and z components. Equation (77) can be found on page 342 which is on page 31 of the pdf file. This same equation appears again in the list of eight original Maxwell's equations in his 1864/65 paper [16]. It can be found at page 484 of the original paper on the supplied web link (page 26 of the pdf file). I have never known anybody, apart from one person, who has ever doubted that this equation corresponds mathematically to the Lorentz force equation. I have even read papers in which it has been transcribed into modern vector format, but I don't have any to hand right now.
I read that primary sources are acceptable where the information is unambiguous. Are these two original Maxwell papers satisfactory for the purpose of verifying the fact that Maxwell produced an equation in 1861 which is mathematically identical to the Lorentz force equation? David Tombe ( talk) 11:27, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
Existence of equivalency of equations is a matter of individually verifiable fact (the phrase at college was "intuitively obvious to the most casual observer") and is not a question of "primary" or "secondary" source (that sort of argument means one could not cite Einstein's "Theory of Relativity" as it is a primary source, for gosh sakes). Restating an equation is either correct, or it is not correct (one of the few cases where POV does not enter into the discussion at all!) Collect ( talk) 17:35, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
Collect, I once saw somebody walking along the street with the Lorentz transformations on their T-shirt, and I even recall spotting an E= mc^2 once, but I have never seen anybody going around advertising for Maxwell's equations. That's news to me. David Tombe ( talk) 00:00, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
TFD, Nobody is talking about the Lorentz transformations. We are talking about equation (D) in the original 8 Maxwell's equations, and the fact that it is the same as the Lorentz force equation. That fact has been generally agreed already. The issue is whether or not a primary Maxwell source can be used as illustration to verify this fact. This equation appears in both Maxwell's 1861 paper as equation (77) and in the 1864/65 paper as equation (D). And everybody knows exactly what the modern Lorentz force equation looks like, and anybody with any knowledge of EM will know that the Lorentz force equation corresponds to equation (77)/equation (D) in all important details. The Lorentz transformations on the other hand is a different topic. The Lorentz transformations lead to a relativistic form of the Lorentz force equation when applied to the 4 Heaviside versions of Maxwell's equations. David Tombe ( talk) 20:57, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
TFD, The modern form of the Lorentz force looks like this,
It has now been generally agreed amongst the physics editors that this is one and the same equation as equation (77) in Maxwell's 1861 paper, and also equation (D) of the original eight Maxwell's equations in the 1864/65 paper. And so that you can see it for yourself, I have now found a German web link which highlights the matter clearly. Have a look at equation (D) in this web link. It shows it in three forms. The form in the final column is identical to the form which I have just printed above. [19]. And I've found another here. This time look at equation 1.4 [20]. The first column shows it in the manner that it appears in Maxwell's original papers. The only difference is that it is expanded into the three x, y, and z, cartesian coordinates, whereas the modern version is in the modern vector notation.
As regards Tom Bearden's claims, I have never understood exactly what he is saying has been removed from the original Maxwell's equations content wise. At one point, I believe that Maxwell attempted to write his equations in quaternion format. I believe that Tom Bearden is saying that the quaternion format contained physics which has now been removed from modern electromagnetism. Everybody knows that the aether has been removed from the original Maxwell's equations, but I don't think that this is the point which Tom Bearden is making. Certainly the modern forms no longer include the Lorentz force equation which was in the original eight. But nevertheless, the Lorentz force equation is still front page in the textbooks alongside Maxwell's equations. It certainly hasn't been suppressed as such, but there does seem to have been some kind of veil drawn over its original origins. It sits beside the modern Maxwell's equations as being an extra equation of electromagnetism that is not catered for by Maxwell's equations, yet the primary sources clearly show that it was one of Maxwell's original equations. David Tombe ( talk) 09:07, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
This is beginning to sound like a controversy best dealt with by reference to History and Philosophy of Science academic works.
Fifelfoo (
talk) 09:30, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
Suppose you have a person who works in a profession that requires a government license in order to legally practice the profession in that person's location. (If it matters, assume we're talking about the United States.)
// ⌘macwhiz ( talk) 02:50, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
Hopefully a simple one.
The truth: the company known as Metaswitch Networks is commonly known as Metaswitch. If you look through journals and articles discussing the company or the company's own website, this is quite rapidly obvious. However, I can't find a source that explicitly says "Metaswitch Networks, commonly Metaswitch", and I'm wary that just putting it in the article based on it being what everyone else does falls afoul of WP:SYN.
Options I can see:
Any advice?
I don't think it's particularly relevant here, but for avoidance of doubt: I'm an employee of Metaswitch; the article talk page and my user page have more COI details.
— me_ and 18:11, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
One editor has persisted in retrenching unsourced and highly OR/synth materials to this page, which doesn't really have a reason to exist distinct from List of Chinatowns in the United States#California. It obsesses over modern "suburban Chinatowns" including directories of their businesses, though admitting "none of these are called Chinatown"....historical Chinatowns in Southern California (on the list page) are passed over entirely....there has been an edit war of sorts, stopping just shy of 3RR, as user:DocOfSoc keeps on reverting deletions of unsourced/OR material "so they can be used as a resource for the Chinatown, Los Angeles page" (in other words, to flesh that page out with original research). On the LA page and the related Monterey Park, California page, there were hosts of citations from wiki-clones, i.e. using wiki material to cite wiki content, though I've replaced those with fact templates (when I perhaps should have deleted the content outright). NB also the AfD at Chinatown patterns in North America, which overlaps with the Chinatown list pages and teh main Chinatown page, and also with Chinatowns in Canada and the United States. Part of the big problem, as with Koreatown, is the OR extension of the meaning of Chinatown to allegedly inclucde anywhere that has Chinese stores and/or residents.....I decided to come here after looking over the burgeoning content on the Southern California page, and am troubled by the idea that rank OR/synth/uncited material would be preserved solely as a "resource" to expand another article. Somewhere between confabulation and conflation and also sins of omission (e.g. of San Luis Obispo's and Calico's historical Chinatowns, among others), this page is one of many ethnic-vanity pages needed deletion or serious editing/pruning. Skookum1 ( talk) 03:00, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
Would like some second opinions over on the biography article on Weston Price. (No, this has nothing to do with Quackwatch or Barrett). Background: Price is a dentist that did research in the 1920s that supported the extraction of infected teeth over performing root canals (also called endodontic therapy) because of this research supported a theory that mouth infections could cause systemic diseases like rheumatoid arthritis called focal infection theory. His experiments and this theory later fell out of favor in the 1940s. Recently a couple of anti-root canals books [21] [22] have been published that resurrected Price's research against root canal as a source. I found a textbook on root canals ( Ingle's Endodontics) and added some information with regards to Price and root canal from both historical and modern perspectives ( diff) sourced mainly to that textbook. The textbook clearly state that the dental and medical communities reject "focal infection theory" as it related to root canals.
Other editors are now trying to add information to this biography article saying that "focal infection theory" may not be totally discredited; however the information they're trying to add does not mention Price or root canals. This seems to me a clear cut case of WP:SYNTH and WP:COATRACK, as it appears to be trying to discuss the theory in general, when the article only speaks about it in the context of root canals and Price. I note again, none of the sources for this additional information even mention Price once. Outside opinions appreciated. Yobol ( talk) 22:44, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
I don't agree that Ingle's book is a reliable source as it via People's Medical Publishing House out of China whose reliability is unknown to us and it is both supported and contradicted by other reliable sources both past and present:
"Many Authorities who formally felt that focal infection was an important etiologic factor in systemic disease have become skeptical and now recommend less radical procedures in the treatment of such disorders" ("An Evaluation of the Effect of Dental Focal Infection on Health" JADA 42:609-697 June 1951)
"His books on Focal Infection are masterpieces. But the work for which he will always be remembered has to do with Human Nutrition." ((1951) Modern nutrition: Volumes 4-7 American Academy of Nutrition pg 32)
"Much of the clinical evidence supporting the focal infection theory is of the case-report type." (Burket, Lester William (1971) "Oral medicine; diagnosis and treatment") ((1951) Modern nutrition: Volumes 4-7 American Academy of Nutrition pg 32)
"Grossman believes that foci of infection, where in the mouth or elsewhere, should be removed (...) Elimination of such foci does not, however, necessarily mean surgical removal since infection may also be eliminated by destruction with antiseptics or antibiotics" (E.R. Squibb & Sons (1956) Dental infections: treatment and prophylaxis; Page 46)
"The allergic condition called angioneurotic edema may be related to food allergy, hypersensitivity, local or focal infection, and endocrine or emotional disturbances." (United States. Dept. of the Army (1971) Dental specialist: Sept. 20, 1971: Part 1 - Page 5-14)
"It is becoming more validated that the oral cavity can act as the site of origin for spread of pathogenic organisms to organisms to distance body areas,..." (Saraf (2006) Textbook of Oral Pathology Jaypee Brothers Medical Publishers pg 188)
"...in spite of lack of scientific evidence the dental focal infection theory never died (O'Reilly (2000) "A history of Oral sepsis as a cause of disease" Periodentel 2000 23:13-18; Pallashe TJ (2000) "The focal infection theory: appraisal and reappraisal" California Dental Association Journal 28: 194-200) (Bergenholtz, Gunnar Preben; Hørsted-Bindslev, Claes Reit putlich (2009) Textbook of Endodontology Wiley page 135-136)
"This is why the dental and medical communities are cautiously reconsidering the biological plausibility of the 'focal infection' theory." (Henderson, Brian; Michael Curtis, Robert Seymour (2009) "Periodontal Medicine and Systems Biology", Wiley; Page 33)
(2001) Fowler, Edward B "Periodontal disease and its association with systemic disease" Military Medicine (Jan 2001)) provides an insane amount of references on focal infection from 1989 to the then present.
Yobol seems to have overlooked the fact that Ingle's book is by the USA branch of People's Medical Publishing House. They also put out books on borderline practices like Acupuncture, Moxibustion & Tuina( Traditional Chinese Medicine on the USA site) This coupled with conflicts with books by the American Academy of Nutrition, Southern California State Dental Association, US Army, Wiley, and Jaypee Brothers Medical Publishers, as well as apparent total ignorance of all focal infection research from 1986 to 2007 I cannot regard Ingle's as a reliable source and am restoring the material to the way it was.-- BruceGrubb ( talk) 06:10, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
What happened to Yobol? -- THE FOUNDERS INTENT PRAISE GOOD WORKS 12:43, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
One of the issues as I tried to explain on the talk page is there doesn't seem to be a clear and definite difference in terms of functional concept between the focal infection 100 years ago and what is being suggested now.
"In the gastro intestinal tract the esophagus, stomach and intestine are seldom subject to focal infection, but two appendages of the tract arc frequently involved, namely, the gall-bladder and appendix." 1910 The Journal of the Indiana State Medical Association: Volume 3 Page 54.
"Goiter, appendicitis, gall-bladder infection, and skin eruptions, such as herpes zoster and acne, bronchial asthma, and the anemias, are all included among those conditions where foci of infection are often suspect as being the most important etiologic factor" ((1918 The Surgical clinics of Chicago Volume 2, Issue 6; Page 1146)
"All focal infection is not of dental origin, but a sufficiently large percentage is to demand a careful study of the mouth and teeth in all cases of the mouth and teeth in all cases of systemic infection, for in these cases all foci should be removed." (1918) Dental summary: Volume 38; Page 437)
"The hypothesis which assumes the causative connection between the primary focus and the secondary lesion is called the "focal infection theory." (Stillman, Paul Roscoe (1922) A Textbook of clinical periodontia; Page 111)
"One cannot deny the existence of such a mechanism as operates in focal infection, ie, infection in one locus leading to manifestations elsewhere in the body. One has but to call to mind the metastases that occur in such infections as tuberculosis, gonorrhea, syphilis, pneumonia, typhoid fever, and mumps. I cannot support the statement in the "critically appraised" report on dental foci of infection that "later laboratory workers were unable to confirm the bacteriologic findings of Rosenow on which the concept of 'elective localization'" ((1952) Southern California State Dental Association journal)
"It is becoming more validated that the oral cavity can act as the site of origin for spread of pathogenic organisms to organisms to distance body areas,..." (Saraf (2006) Textbook of Oral Pathology Jaypee Brothers Medical Publishers pg 188)
Other than how primarily a role it plays in disease there doesn't seem to be that much difference from the focal infection theory of 1910 and the one of 2007 or if there is the reliable source material is doing a really bad job explaining it to us layman editors.-- BruceGrubb ( talk) 18:41, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
I originally asked this at WT:NOR, but this may be a more appropriate venue, I'm not sure.
Is there any sort of transitive rule of synthesis? For instance, if source #1 says that A is B, and source #2 says that B is C, is it synthesis to say that A is C? For a more concrete example, if source #1 says that "all mammals are warm blooded", and source #2 says that "all cats are mammals", would it be considered synthesis to say that "cats are warm blooded"? A bit confused as to whether these types of transitive scenarios were meant to be excluded as synthesis. ← George talk
I think this is a simple matter of checking 12 sentences to see whether the current or proposed version better conforms to the sources. However, I have dealt with one editor who steadfastly affirms the opposite version to mine, and several editors in various fora who have declined to read the sources. I have now lined up current, proposed, and source versions, with links, to make it as easy as possible. There is an unparalleled high heat-light ratio, but I hope the primary issues are boiled down at that link. Please chip in, thank you. JJB 12:44, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
Sorry JJ, I'll stop trying to predict your behaviour. For everyone else: John is sincere, he really does believe that the sources quoted in the article don't back up what the article says. So I support his coming here for third-party input. I do, however, rather doubt that many of you are going to be be willing to go through all 12 sentences that are currently causing him distress. To makle it easier, can I suggest we take them one by one? I'll paste in the first sentence that John has problems with, and the source it's based on, and you can look at it and say "yes" or "no" as you see fit. Number 1: "This Israel, identified as a people, was probably located in the northern part of the central highlands." (A word of explanation: the sentence is talking about a reference to an entity named as "Israel" in a 13th century BC inscription from Egypt - hence the phrase "this Israel". The inscription doesn't say exactly where "this Israel" was. John is querying our statement that it was most probably in "the northern part of the central highlands" of modern Palestine/Israel. See page 38 of the source: Niels Peter Lemche, "The Israelites in History and Tradition" (Westminster John Knox, 1998) pp.35-8) So, does the source say northern part of central highlands, yes or no? Answers please on a postcard, or else put them here... PiCo ( talk) 08:40, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
The second challenge (aka point 8) is I would delete "At the same time the highlands, previously unpopulated, were beginning to fill with villages" as not found in source McNutt pp. 69-70; McNutt says the villages were previously populated. This was recognized as faulty and changed to "almost unpopulated", but that still does not fully address the issue. McNutt does not speak of a previously unpopulated land; she speaks of villagers, who left archaeological remains, and others, who did not, so she does not comment on nonvillage population; her only relevant comment seems to be that a majority of villages were not previously occupied. The WP:BURDEN is on the maintainer, and this sentence is not in source pp. 69-70 as claimed. Comments? JJB 17:25, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
Outside editors can still get the first crack if they act now on the verification check at Discussion 10-11! I am sorry to say that this board has so far generated zero editors who were not previously involved with me. Its only consolation has been that every new board at least seems to ratchet some recalcitrant editor a bit forward in advancing the discussion. Okay, I just need to find about seven more boards. Anyone? Anyone? JJB 05:11, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
All sources (including The World Factbook, Library of Congress Country Studies, Encyclopedia Britannica, Center for Applied Linguistics, etc.) state that the Tajik ethnic group in Afghanistan is 25-27%. [23] [24] [25] User:Tajik believes this is wrong and wants to raise it to 37-38% [26] by using opinion polls in which between around 1,000 to 6,000 invdividuals were selected and asked questions relating to how things are since the start of the latest US-led war in their country. [27] [28] Among many questions, one question at the end was asked the 1,000-6,000 volunteers to state their ethnicity and User:Tajik wants to use the result of that opinion poll to reflect as the total ethnic percentages of Afghanistan's 28 million people, although the survey was conducted in the city of Kabul, which has higher % of Tajiks than other places of the country. I believe User:Tajik's edits regarding this is original research or original synthesis because I've looked everywhere online but cannot find a single source mentioning Tajiks over 27%. We've also had a discussion on this topic at Talk:Afghanistan#Ethnic groups. I want to know if I'm right on this, and need an advice on what shall be done, thanks.-- Jrkso ( talk) 02:35, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
Just a note: Jrkso put his answers directly into the previous discussion, hence the chronology is lost. My answers are not directed at him, as it appears. He simply did not follow the rules of discussion. As for Jrkso's claims: I have already explained that I consider the two polls as additional sources, not as mere "facts". They are representative polls (as far as possible in Afghanistan), at least one of them conducted by very reliable institutions. Whatever the original purpose has been: the numbers reflect the previous numbers, they neither disprove nor replace the older ones. They are, so far, the most recent numbers we have from Afghanistan. All other numbers, be it the CIA Factbook or Britannica, are only guesses and are not based on any actual survey or official numbers. Jrkso's edits are notorious for being problematic. He has just been caught directly falsifying sources with the attempt to mislead the reader. See my comments on the talk page of Afghanistan. Regards. Tajik ( talk) 19:42, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
“ | This report presents the findings of the single-largest, comprehensive public opinion poll conducted in Afghanistan. The survey was conducted by The Asia Foundation between June and August, 2006 and consisted of a random, representative sample of 6226 in-person interviews with Afghan citizens 18 years of age and above resident in Afghanistan (see Appendix 1). The survey sample was divided first according to urban and rural characteristics of Afghanistan.1 The universe is divided into seven geographical regions consisting of 34 provinces out of which 32 provinces were covered in the survey. Uruzgan, representing 1.1 percent of the population of Afghanistan, and Zabul, representing 1.2 percent, were excluded from the sampling plan due to extreme security conditions during the fieldwork period of the survey. The margin of sampling error is 2.5 percent. | ” |
I need a second opinion at Talk:Masonic Hall (Wickenburg, Arizona) ... the text of the article (without citations) reads:
The Masonic Hall in Wickenburg, Arizona was built in 1922. It served historically as a clubhouse. The building "is noteworthy as a rare local example of the concrete frame with brick infill method of construction." The building was listed on the National Register of Historic Places in 1986. At that time it was the location of Montgomery Ward department store. The Masonic group in Wickenburg was the Hassayampa Lodge No. 37, which merged with Peoria Lodge No. 31, located in Peoria on June 6, 2005.
The sentence in question is italicized above, and is cited to this website... there are other sources for other statements. Unfortunately, what we don't have (and I think need) is a source that explicitly links Hassayampa lodge to the historic building in any way. There is a source (not used at the moment) that shows that the lodge has met elsewhere in the town... so Hassayampa was certainly A Masonic group in Wickenberg (we don't know if it was The Masonic group).
My feeling is that it is a plausible assumption that Hassayampa met in the historic building at some point in its history... but we don't know this for sure, and it is equally plausible that some other lodge met in the historic building (some towns do have more than one lodge). So... the question is... does mentioning Hassayampa Lodge create an implied conclusion that Hassayampa was the lodge that met in the historic building... and would this be a WP:SYNT vio. or some other form of OR? Blueboar ( talk) 13:37, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
The Masonic Hall in Wickenburg, Arizona was built in 1922. It served historically as a clubhouse.[1]
The building "is noteworthy as a rare local example of the concrete frame with brick infill method of construction."[2]
The building was listed on the National Register of Historic Places in 1986.[1] At that time it was the location of a Montgomery Ward department store.[2]
A Masonic group in Wickenburg was the Hassayampa Lodge No. 37, which merged with Peoria Lodge No. 31, located in Peoria on June 6, 2005.[3]
I'd like to hear views on whether or not Lord Macaulay's book, 'The History of England' [33] is a reliable source in relation to the Massacre of Glencoe. I have included here a link to the wikipedia article about this book. The wikipedia article states a view which I do not agree with. It claims that Lord Macaulay goes to considerable lengths to absolve King William III from any responsibility for the Glencoe Massacre. That is not my reading of the situation. Macaulay clearly condemns King William's role, and in particular the fact that he was guilty of "a great breach of duty" in shielding the Master of Stair from any punishment beyond dismissal from the secretaryship of Scotland. Macaulay of course blamed the Master of Stair for the atrocity, which is view held jointly by both the Whigs and the Tories.
The question centres around the role of the Campbells in the atrocity. Macaulay makes it clear that the plot was hatched up between the Master of Stair, Breadalbane, and Argyll, the latter two being senior members of the clan Campbell. The plan was executed by Glenlyon, who was a Campbell, in circumstances of revolting treachery of which even the Master of Stair did not contemplate.
As regards Macaulay's book, it is a history classic written in the 19th century, 160 years after the event. And even though it is a well known fact that William was Macaulay's hero, and that Macaulay was a Whig who supported the Williamite settlement, Macaulay nevetherless rebukes William's role in the affair, while pointing out that William had never intended the treacherous manner in which the plan was executed by Glenlyon.
As regards the article, Massacre of Glencoe, there is a gaping omission by virtue of which the Campbells have been completely erased from any culpability in the affair, even though Hamilton and Glenlyon were specifically chosen to carry out the plan, because it was necessary to choose people who would be eager to carry out the plan. For the same reason, Colonel Hill at Fortwilliam was dropped from the plan because he was considered by Livingstone to be too humane.
What I want to know is, if Macaulay's book makes it quite clear that the Campbells were heavily involved in the plan, can we use the book as a reliable source for the purpose of verification of this fact? David Tombe ( talk) 20:42, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
I've been encountering an editor and an anon IP contributor who insist on adding in in-universe dates for various Man Men episodes. I've argued in discussion that since the episodes themselves are not dated (ie, July 3, 1963, etc.), any application of an editor's historical knowledge constitutes synthesis and original research. They are arguing that the knowledge is common and uncontested. Without citation as to these dates, we are being asked to reply upon one editor's Sherlocking of the episode to glean the date, which I don't think we allow. As well, I personally disagree with a number of these date insertions. I've pointedly asked that either of the users supply reliable sourcing of these dates, to resolve the problem; as yet, they have been unable to so so. Thoughts? - Jack Sebastian ( talk) 20:16, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
Aurelstein, you keep trying to reframe the question. The matter before us regards original research and synthesis. We are an encyclopedia - we do not allow you to place your opinions or assessments about a topic within an article - it is one of the most basic principles of Wikipedia. For this reason, your categorization of Mad Men as a work of art actually works against you. In the same way that we are not allowed to assess how (or even who) the
Mona Lisa was painted without citation, we are not allowed to assess or determine aspects of the series (ie. dates of each episode). That is a plain and simple fact, arrived at by even the most casual of interpretations of our policies.
The criterion I note - that you find so terribly stringent - is that in order to mention the dates that you think that the episode occurred during - require citation by a reliably-sourced reference. Everything in Wikipedia does. Additionally, as Mad Men's own production blog fails to mention these dates, it can be reasonably determined that the only ones who feel the dates of the episodes are important are but a small group of fans. Indeed, its the same three or four people that keep commenting about how this is all child's play and connecting the dots.
You point to a viewing within the episode of less than 1.3 seconds of a baby's birth certificate and expect us to consider this primary research. Find a citation; if this is all so very very important to an understanding of the article, then it should be out there. If it is not, please consider that you are asking us to provide
undue weight to the date. As any regular viewer of the program would tell you, the background events hardly/barely/rarely determine the story within each episode.
You keep mentioning the JFK assassination and election; the former which - after many requests, someone was finally willing to roll up their sleeves and find. That is to be commended. Insisting that we trust your instincts and detective skills is absolutely not. -
Jack Sebastian (
talk) 14:51, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
These topics and lists are a horrid morass of WP:NOR, but certainly guessing "in-universe" dates of events would be more egregious examples. The primary events portrayed in these shows clearly did not happen in reality, but rather are a work of fiction; therefore, one cannot take for granted that any events in these shows correspond exactly with actual history. Perhaps it's all some alternate history, who knows? Stick to what reliable, secondary sources say. There's been plenty written about Mad Men, go and use that material. Jayjg (talk) 06:02, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
Most of this appears to be original research. Phrases like "Her succession, under this theory, " make it obvious, as do footnotes 5 and 6. Sources 2, 3 and 4 also look unreliable. Dougweller ( talk) 08:17, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
Hi, I'm having some trouble deciding whether this would be counted as original research or not;
There is a piece of text on the
John Abbey article, "He was a apprentice for James and David Davis, and later for Hugh Russell after 1818." (
ref) - This isn't very informative in it's current state and placement.
I would like to add extra information to this - "In his youth he was a apprentice for James and David Davis, and later for Hugh Russel after 1818, both reputable organ builders in their day." (bolded text
ref) - would this count as original research, if not: how would I structure the inline citations. Thank you --
George2001hi
(Discussion) 22:01, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
The basic problem the article White Argentine is that mixes different things. The main editor of the article, according to an interesting point of view, exposes his own personal research. In fact, he work also in the website that he used as a reference. He tried to did it on wikipedia in spanish, but the article was erased by them [34]. The author put together some things from the article Ethnography of Argentina with other part of Immigration to Argentina, to sustain his hypothesis of the existence of a different ethnic group born from the interweaving of different European ethnic groups in Argentina, called "White argentinian". In fact, put in the same group Arabs and Turks, with Germans and Anglo-saxons people, among others, according to ancient theory of physical anthropology, now lapsed. Adding a lot of unnecessary information about politics, music, culture and sports, which is the reproduction of articles about politics, music and sport in Argentina. However, would be different if the article was only about the term, more or less widespread, which brings together in an ambiguous way all Argentines with a some European origin. In this sense, it should be changed the whole article. In other words exist the "term" but don't exist the ethnic group, do you understand?. I know I don't write well in English. But, if you really want a list of the specific problems of your article, when I have a bit more free time, I will tell you. Otherwise, I just let this observations, hoping someday this article will be reviewed with common sense. Regards. G.-- 79.43.220.9 ( talk) 20:39, 5 November 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.239.210.248 ( talk)
I'm having a disagreement about an article I revamped about a controversial conservative commentator named Heather Mac Donald. Another editor is challenging my additions, claiming that when I quote Mac Donald, it's a primary source. Here's an example:-- Tomwsulcer ( talk) 00:14, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
“ | Secular conservatism. Mac Donald identifies herself as a secular conservative, and argued in USA Today that conservative thinking is superior to liberalism by virtue of the ideas alone, and that religion should not affect the argument. [2] | ” |
Alfeyev
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).... It is a proven track record that makes conservative principles superior to liberalism, not the religious inclinations of their proponents.
What I'm wondering is: is this an instance of a strictly primary source? Consider that Heather Mac Donald is a commentator. USA Today is a newspaper. USA Today chose to print Mac Donald's views. It's not like Mac Donald wrote something on her own website and I'm quoting it. Rather, there's a reliable publication (a secondary source?) printing Mac Donald's views, saying, in effect, that her views (while controversial) are important, worthy of print, relevant to debate on this topic. If USA prints unreliable or boring commentators, it could lose circulation and respect. Isn't USA Today adding a little weight to the source here? But at the same time, I agree quoting Mac Donald is not a true secondary source -- it's not critic X said Y about Mac Donald (which we all agree is best). My question is: isn't this a case where the source is in that gray area between primary and secondary?-- Tomwsulcer ( talk) 00:14, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
Here's the problem from another angle. How can any of us write any biographies (particularly about commentators) without ever quoting what the article subject says? As a writer, I'm trying to describe Mac Donald. Why is she notable? Her views. What views are they? Well, what? Here I'm stuck -- if I'm forced to rely only on what other reviewers SAY are her views, I don't think that would be a reliable way to describe them. Why not quote her directly? I think it's perfectly acceptable to have a mix of her views, and views of others (ie real secondary sources), in a mix, and assume that the reader is intelligent enough to know which is which.-- Tomwsulcer ( talk) 00:14, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
Look at current WP articles on commentators. George Will, Jim Cramer, Liz Cheney, Maureen Dowd, Bill Maher, Jonathan Alter, Charles Krauthammer. These are generally good articles. And they ALL have references quoting the commentator saying something. And not just sporadic references, but MANY references. George Will said this. Bill Maher said that. And I think the references are helpful. IF the "no primary sources" rule is strictly enforced, most of these articles would have to be gutted. What I'm saying is that the de facto standard, particularly regarding biographies on commentators, is that it's perfectly reasonable to include direct quotes when handled responsibly, that it requires judgment, while I agree that secondary sources are preferred.-- Tomwsulcer ( talk) 00:14, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
To discuss how this policy applies to the Heather Mac Donald article, please continue the discussion at the No original research/Noticeboard. Thanks-- SaskatchewanSenator ( talk) 01:46, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
We have a dispute at List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming, where editors believe that we can invent a new scheme to classify the beliefs of living people in such a way that it might not be synthesis/original research. Implied in the discussion is that we would still classify scientists by finding quotations and matching these quotations to category headings. It is suggested that scientists whose views span multiple categories could be resolved using a matrix system.
I have the view that inventing a new scheme to classify the beliefs of living people is pretty obviously contrary to WP:NOR and WP:BLP but other experienced editors think this might be OK.
Anyone willing to give their opinions? Alex Harvey ( talk) 11:28, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
Hello, I write here because I need a clarification about the use of sources (specially the primary ones) in the article Beatrice of Portugal. On September 27, I made a deletion of content [37] per WP: PRIMARY, and on October 9, I explained the reasons. The next day User:Jorge alo, restored it adding two sources that do not support the wording, because the wording of the article displays his own interpretation. Thus: [38]
I could remove such edition and re-explain it to him, but in wikipedia in Spanish Jorge alo insisted on a edit warring resolved by an administrator [40] on the basis of his misuse of primary sources. To avoid a edit warring, I need an opinion more qualified about this issue of NOR, since in the wiki in french Jorge alo gave me all kinds of insults, [41] and there is no way of making him understand the policies of wikipedia. Regards. Trasamundo ( talk) 20:07, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
Could some editors please chime in on this discussion? A new editor wants to use her own transcriptions of British National Archives documents in Latin to source a biography article on Edward de Vere, 17th Earl of Oxford. I don't have the firmest grasp of policy, so advice from more experienced editors would be appreciated. Tom Reedy ( talk) 15:11, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
I'm posting this discussion on behalf of another editor Alinor ( talk · contribs) who seemingly refuses to come to the noticeboard to discuss a clear difference in interpretation of a source.
The source in question is Francis Boyle's Palestine, Palestinians and International Law (2009), which states the following:
As I had predicted to the PLO, the creation of [a] Palestinian State was an instantaneous success. Palestine would eventually achieve de jure diplomatic recognition from about 130 states. The only regional hold-out was Europe and this was because of massive political pressure applied by the United States Government.
According to User:Alinor, Boyle is making a prediction that Palestine would eventually be recognised by 130 states, and therefore raised issue with what is currently written in the article that "In 2009, Boyle reported that about 130 countries had recognised the State of Palestine."
There's a preliminary discussion located here. Nightw 14:30, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
This discussion appears to have migrated to the article's talk page. Nightw 09:29, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
Speaking just in terms of grammar, there are indeed two ways of reading the first two sentences:
The first interpretation does not make much sense. Why should the author have predicted the approximate number of state recognising Palestine, rather than a minimal number? What really shoots down this interpretation is the word "eventually", which indicates that the number of states recognising Palestine is not going to change substantially either way even in the future. That would be an extremely unusual claim to make, and it did not turn out to be correct since we simply can't know this yet.
The second interpretation is much more natural, and in fact the way the source phrases it is merely a stylistic improvement over the formulation under 2. I have no doubt that this is what is meant by the source. Hans Adler 12:05, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
Great. The issue has been resolved. A sincere thank you to all who commented here. Nightw 17:14, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
An article on the topic of the Homosexuals Anonymous program was recently posted and nominated for DYK. I considered it extremely POV and advertisement-like (there was virtually no criticism). In working on the article, I have been accused of violating WP:SYNTH (see the talk page), which led me to work in the quiet of my user space. I have now (just) posted a new version, and I invite comment / criticism / feedback / changes on the new version, with particular concerns about NPOV, NOR, and SYNTH. Thanks. EdChem ( talk) 16:06, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
Related to an issue previously discussed in another thread above, a lengthy debate has developed at Foreign relations of the Palestinian National Authority between myself and another editor, Alinor ( talk · contribs).
The argument, as it has degraded into, is over a recently added section entitled "Overview", which contradicts the data displayed in the rest of the article. The main point of concern is the following conflicting statements:
The first statement, which I recently changed to "at least 104 states" to address concerns I'd had with its conclusiveness, is derived from calculations of multiple reliable sources. Without the recently added "at least", this statement contradicts different figures cited by respected legal professionals: "over 114" (Boyle, 1990); "more than 100" (Fowler and Bunck, 1995); "117" (Anat Kurz, 2005); "about 130" (Boyle, 2010); "about 126" (Boyle, 2010).
The second statement comes from the fact that, according to one reference, many statements of recognition were "equivocal" in nature. It is also, in my opinion, plainly obvious from the level of disagreement between sources citing a number (above), and therefore necessary.
So the question is: Is it original research to claim that a situation is unclear when multiple sources disagree? Do we need a source that states that the situation is unclear? Nightw 13:12, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
About the alleged contradiction between the sources. First, the Fowler and Bunck 1995 source statement is retrospective: p. 59: "By 1988 more than one hundred countries had formally recognized the 'state' of Palestine, which also received official acknowledgement by the United Nations General Assembly.", e.g. this is not for 1995. Second, most of these sources don't use "exact number", but ranges ("over X", "about X", etc.) and some of them overlap (e.g. don't contradict each other). Third, they are for different moments in time - and state recognitions are not constant - they change over time - so it is highly probable that some states gave/withdraw recognition in the time between the sources. It should be noted that the only "exact numbers" given are 117 (Anat Kurz 2005) and 127 (Boyle 2010).
Boyle "over 114" (1990) doesn't disagree with Anat Kurz 117 (2005). Boyle "about 130/126" from 2009/2010 and the Boyle 127 from 2010 doesn't disagree. Boyle "over 114" doesn't disagree with Boyle "about 130/126"/127. So the only potential disagreement is between the "exact" Anat Kurz 117 (2005) and Boyle 127 (2010) - but maybe 10 additional states recognized for these 5 years - the sources we have neither confirm nor deny that.
The number is not "unknown"/"unclear" - it is unknown/unclear only to us, the Wikipedia users - because we have inconclusive sources (e.g. the 117/127 no-specific-list vs. the sources showing recognition by 103 undisputed up to 111 - 8 inconclusive). An example for "unknown number" is the Age of the universe, but the number of SoP recognitions is not unknown/unclear - it is only that we don't have simultaneously reliable+exact+specific+recent sources about it. The SoP itself ( PLO as its government in exile) should know it pretty well (does it have a website?). Alinor ( talk) 14:43, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
So, I propose that we avoid making statements like "number is unknown/unclear", "sources contradict each other" (unless we have a source actually showing such thing) - and that instead we stick to wordings like "In 1988 the PLO declared the State of Palestine, being quite widely recognised by states, although often in equivocal terms." that more closely resembles this reference cite above. Alinor ( talk) 14:48, 20 November 2010 (UTC)