2014 GA review: Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Hyacinth Graf Strachwitz von Groß-Zauche und Camminetz
The article has several problematic areas:
The article relies largely on one source for the article copy, containing about 160 citations to Röll:
Judging by the book cover, this appears to be a laudatory, non-peer reviewed narrative along the lines authored by other similar militaria literature writers, such as Franz Kurowski or his colleague from Der Landser writer Günter Fraschka . WP:Biased may apply. Fraschka is used in the article for a couple of what look like POV, laudatory statements (please see Neutrality section below).
The article relies largely on one source for the article copy, containing about 160 citations to Röll.(My emphasis). I looked up the publisher for Röll's book, Flechsig, and it's a nothing publisher. Is it a real company? I'm not convinced. From what I can find online, it might just be some guy in his basement. It's not carried by universities, libraries or otherwise reputable places, only things like amazon, so my jaw dropped when I looked back at the citation list with that in mind. This source does not appear to be appropriate for any BLP, especially to give that much weight to a single source for material not covered elsewhere. According to google scholar, it's only been cited two times by others. BLP's require a higher standard of sourcing than a regular article and this source seems to be the bottom of the barrel. It has no reputation, we know nothing about the editorial oversight or fact-checking, it's not referenced by experts, yet it's used to source WP:EXCEPTIONAL claims that multiple editors have now commented sound far fetched. Per WP:V: Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources." (WP's emphasis). All of the arguments in favor of this source contradict WP:NPOV and WP:BLP. I haven't heard any single convincing reason why this source is at all appropriate. Given WP:ONUS, "The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content", I feel like it's a waste of my time to keep looking for seemingly nonexistent information about this publisher. I'm open to the possibility that other editors might be able to verify for us that this actually a reliable source, but for now it doesn't appear to meet any of the criteria. —PermStrump (talk) 20:55, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
The lead is overly long and complex, making it difficult to read. It provides extraneous detail which would not normally be notable for a military figure for inclusion in the lead, such as:
The article contains excessive intricate detail, such as
The section on childhood unnecessarily long for an article on a military man, especially at this level of detail:
Military operations of low-level units are described in excessive detail, for example:
Various wounds are described in excessive detail:
Non-battlefield actions are described in excessive detail:
Non-military matters are also described in excessive detail, for example:
References
References
Most of these are junior ranks and non-notable. This could just as easily be conveyed by stating that the subject finished World War as an Oberleutnant, and World War II as Generalleutnant. The section appears to be reproducing verbatim the subject's service record, which seems to belong in the archives, and not on an encyclopedia article, especially for a mid-level officer. Otherwise, the article looks like an indiscriminate collection of primary material.
References
Three citations for material that's unlikely to be controversial do not appear to be needed.
- Scherzer and Busch & Röll have been properly researched and have found critical acclaim from scholars. In most articles they are rightly the major source.
- Fellgiebel represents the current view of the [Knight's Cross Holders Association], although biased, I can live with it, if accompanied by one of the works mentioned above.
- Range and von Seemen come from the same place, but have been superseded by Fellgiebel's work and are thus dated. Same apllies to Kurowski, who has been criticized for ignoring scholarly studies since 1957. One wonders what information can be found there that is not in one of the more reliable sources.
- Schaulen, Fraschka, and Alman are heavily NPOV, incidentally Alman is a pseudonym for Kuroswki which he used not to taint the reputation for his more serious work.
- Last, Williamson does not give footnotes nor does he provide a bibliography in his works concerned here, while obviously drawing on some of the sources already mentioned. In some cases I left his works in the list, if only because there were no other English-language publications listed.
This is an extraordinary claim and requires verification by multiple sources.
References
I would not consider Gordon Williamson (writer) to be an RS for this claim, judging by the linked article.
The article appears to contain unnecessary speculation which may be construed as original research/synthesis and is only tangentially related to the subject of the article:
Quoting from Otto Carius appears to be undue and/or speculation, to try to make light of the subject's unsuccessful battlefield performance:
Gossip mongers maintained that the Großdeutschland Panzer-Regiment was taken away from Strachwitz because he had too many losses. I had justifiable doubts concerning this claim. Graf Strachwitz and his staff were always employed at hot spots on the front, where they had to carry out extremely pressing operations, for which every form of support was provided to them. Painful losses couldn't always be avoided during those types of operations. But it was through these losses that the lives of many soldiers from other units were saved." [4]
References
Potentially unverifiable information is presented in Wikipedia's voice:
References
Unneeded foreign language translations for the terms already linked. Interested readers can click on the related links.
Excessive foreign-language spelling of unit names and piping, when English language articles for this topics are available, for example:
Overlinking to common terms (lung cancer, eulogy):
We do not need to link "eulogy", "military exercises", "burns", etc. It's DICDEF behavior. "Spies" and "saboteur" are judgment calls, and I think I would link them (though I would link spy to espionage, what he was actually accused of, and bypassing the redirect), again because they're pertinent avenues for readers getting more contextually important information. We link to help the reader understand the material.
Think it through as a reader: I learn that he was accused of things; I've heard these terms before (maybe, these days, more in the context of commercial espionage and hacker sabotage), and I wonder just what such an accusation would have entailed in this context. Our articles provide this background. I read that he died of lung cancer, which I've obviously heard of before. Was this an unusual way to go out in his era? Should he have seen it coming, since today we all know smoking is carcinogenic? Our article does in fact go into lung cancer rates and the prevalent and eventually declining "culture" of smoking in the 20th century, and how long it took to prove the connection. Now I hit the term "military exercise", a passing reference to something the subject did briefly. I really DGaF for a detailed exploration of that right now, because it doesn't tell me anything important about the bio subject. I run into "eulogy"; even if I don't actually know this word, it's kind of clear from the context, and I know what a dictionary is; reading up on the history of eulogies helps me in no way understand the subject better. And everyone over about the age of 3 knows all about burns, from having touched the hot stove or mommy's curling iron by that age; there's no reason to link this except in a context where understanding the physiology and treatment of burns is helpful (e.g. in an article on first aid, or even in this one, if the subject had died in hospital of burns received in a house fire). — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 13:01, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
The article is potentially non-neutral, as it contains POV language, such as:
References
On the last point, it's equally as likely that he got the nickname due to his aristocratic background. Williamson is not an RS for the "talent" claim. Fraschka has been mentioned in the section on sources above.
K.e.coffman ( talk) 03:00, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
Comments by AustralianRupert: Thank you for the time you have put into your review. Overall, I think the article could be edited to maintain its current assessment status. I have some comments/suggestions: AustralianRupert ( talk) 05:21, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
Comments. Agreed with every one of AR's points. (Normally I just agree silently, but this is a good article review.) Reading AR's comments carefully and PM's quickly, this looks like a "keep", though I'm not an expert on any of this. - Dank ( push to talk) 11:20, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
Comment I think this is an excellent article. Too long? Maybe. Too detail? Perhaps. Worthy of GA downgrade? Absolutely not, IMHO. Quite the opposite, I wish every article on the wiki was this detailed. Maury Markowitz ( talk) 12:29, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
Comments. I agree with AR's comments above. With that said the article could use some edits for concision in regards to length and certain details; for example, I had taken out this sentence: "Against orders, his jubilant adjutant, Unteroffizier Rosenstock, woke him up on the early morning to share the news." I also hope that you, K.e. with think about the comments made by these gentlemen above for a good rule of thumb as we all carry forward on this project. Lastly, I agree the article should not be downgraded. Note: Once a general criteria is agreed to; using this one as a model, there are other articles, some of other classes, which should have a second look. Kierzek ( talk) 13:34, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
Comment: Here's the version that I had worked up before it has been suggested that the article go through current review and the changes were reverted: June 9 version. I believe it to be superior from the readability standpoint, as it addresses the issue of excessive detail and hard to read prose. Please let me know what you guys think. K.e.coffman ( talk) 15:41, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
Comment: I think the current (original) version of the article is far superior, and disagree strongly with the proposed cuts (cutting out his entire early life?) I agree with Rupert's comments. I think that the level of detail of the article is quite appropriate, and the sourcing is fine. Hawkeye7 ( talk) 22:29, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
Comment: It will be apparent from my comments throughout that I also believe the current version is superior, the level of detail (with minor exceptions) is appropriate, and the sourcing appears fine. I'm afraid that the nominator has misunderstood or misapplied a number of core en WP policies as well as taken a strange stance on inclusion of detail in a military biography on en WP. I encourage the nominator to familiarise themselves with the expectations of the Milhist project regarding biographical articles and the detail needed to meet the comprehensiveness criteria. A study of recently promoted Milhist A-Class articles would be of value in that regard. Cheers, Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 03:32, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
Comment I saw this referenced on a talk page on my watchlist. I agree with the comments concerning neutrality and excessive detail and agree that it should not be GA status. Figureofnine ( talk • contribs) 14:12, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
Comment I saw this on the watchlist, and any article by MrBee usually gets my attention. This article has a few hiccups grammatically, but is fine. I wouldn't downgrade it to GA. Not sure why that came up. This man's life story is very interesting, certainly worthy, and offers a very nuanced view of his character. auntieruth (talk) 19:05, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
Comment - I was pinged on my talk page about this GAR (presumably because I took part in the ACR). I generally agree with Peacemaker's and Rupert's comments above. If I had thought the article was excessively detailed, I'd have raised my concerns during the ACR. Parsecboy ( talk) 19:08, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
Note for closing editor this can be closed as keep. The nominator clearly needs to better familiarise themselves with core en WP policies, as well as recently promoted A-Class military biographical articles, in order to understand community expectations regarding the structure, content and detail of GA and Milhist A-Class articles. Frankly, except for some minor points regarding excessive detail, this GAR has been a complete waste of the valuable time of a number of experienced editors, as well as the nominator. Cheers, Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 02:18, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
"The goal should not be to delist the article, but to restore it back to its former good article quality, if possible.". I did see the comment elsewhere that this GAR was initiated because attempts to clean it up were reverted on the basis that people shouldn't mess with a MILHIST A-Class article "promoted by consensus", i.e. promoted by a WP:LOCALCONSENSUS at one wikiproject. If what the wikiproject considers good and what the broader community's GA process considers good are in conflict, then the wikiproject is what needs to bend. And it is clear that quite a number of respondents here are concerned about what was called "military fancruft" making the article hard to read. That's a legit GAR concern. But a) it shouldn't take actual delisting to resolve this, and b) the flood of MILHIST trivia-poring above isn't helpful. As I noted below, GAR doesn't exist for WP:MILHIST to use as an topically local A-Class reassessment system, and GAR has its own ways and purpose. GARs are supposed to stick to the GA criteria and not be enormous, drawn-out affairs. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 21:29, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
Comment: I've seen
K.e.coffman's request for input here today on several projects and noticeboards that I follow, so finally decided to click over and take a look. I never heard of this subject before attempting to read this BLP today and I have to say, the current version is very difficult to get through and I haven't finished reading it yet, but wanted to make my first impression known as I think many readers will share the same feelings and be turned off from the article. For me, the main things making it difficult to read are the frequent,
inappropriate use of foreign language terms, excessive footnoting,
overlinking, and the over-abundance of minor details (in both the lead and the body) instead of using the recommended
summary style. If a reader is interested in that level of detail, they will go to the sources, but indiscriminately including details just because it's provided in biographies on the subject is
unencyclopedic. I haven't had enough time to look into the sources, so won't weigh in on the POV issues yet, but given the
excessive length and poor readability alone, I'm honestly surprised that people are arguing to keep this at GA status. For example, one of the main criteria for
featured articles is: Length. It stays focused on the main topic without going into unnecessary detail and uses
summary style
. It makes sense for a GA to be aiming in FA direction as well. I think it should be de-listed until after improvements are made and it is reassessed.
—PermStrump
(talk) 23:10, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
"Editors should bear in mind that GA is not FA, tolerance is needed where sources may be difficult or impossible to find, and that this article is not subject to the rules of BLP. Somehow a mention should preferably be built into to the article that much of the information relies on a single source (e.g. 'according to Röll...) . BTW, that source may be a paid-for vanity publication and it would be of interest for a Wikipedia editor fluent in German (as I am for example) to obtain a copy and read it).
- The lede is overly detailed - a lot of it is material for the article body.
- Military operations of low-level units are described in excessive detail unless he received military decoration for his actions in these operations or campaigns.There is often a tendency on Wikipedia to provide excessive detail in many kinds of articles. Such detail is beyond the requirement of encyclopedic entries whose main objective is to direct the reader to more detailed externally available information rather than excessively reproducing (paraphrasing, etc) that information.
- A lot of fine detail such as, just for example,but not only, the type of war wounds, their hopitalisations, and treatment, etc, are excessive.
- A lot of the detail is unnecessary because it does not directly relate to Strachwitz and some paragraphs could be significantly reduced such as, for example:
On 30 January 1933, the Nazi Party, under the leadership of Adolf Hitler, came to power and began to rearm Germany. The Heer (Germany Army) was increased and modernized with a strong focus on the Panzer (tank) force. Personnel were recruited from the cavalry. In October 1935 Panzer-Regiment 2 was created and was subordinated to the 1st Panzer Division, at the time under command of General Maximilian von Weichs. The soldiers of the I. Abteilung (1st Battalion) came from Saxony and Thuringia, the II. Abteilung (2nd Battalion) was made up from soldiers from Silesia. Strachwitz, who had served as an officer of the reserves in Reiter-Regiment 7 (7th Cavalry Regiment) in Breslau, had asked to be transferred to the Panzer force and, in May 1936, participated in his first manoeuvre on the training ground at Ohrdruf, followed by an exercise of live firing on the gunnery training ground at Putlos—today in the administrative district of Oldenburg-Land—near the Baltic Sea. A year later, from July to August 1937, he participated in a second reserve training exercise on the Silesian training grounds at Neuhammer—present-day Świętoszów.[23]
to:
In 1933 the Nazi administration began to rearm Germany and the army was increased and reorganised with a focus on tank warfare. Strachwitz, who had served in Reiter-Regiment 7 (7th Cavalry Regiment) had asked to be transferred to the Panzer force and in 1936 participated in his first manoeuvre, followed by gunnery training at Putlos (today Oldenburg-Land). In 1937 he participated in further training at Neuhammer (present-day Świętoszów.)
- The word Schloss in German, just as château in French, can mean anything from a country house, manor or mansion ,through stately home, and palace, to a fortified castle. Usually associated with aristocracy of some kind but may also refer to the residence of large land owners.
To conclude, I personally believe that with consideration to the above points, the article could easily retain (or regain) its GA status."
//Quoted material ends.//
To clarify, my original intention was not to get the article delisted, but rather to improve the article by addressing the difficult prose, non-encyclopedic language and excessive detail. However, my edits, which I considered an improvement, were reverted on the grounds that: " This type of "death of a thousand cuts" is inappropriate for an Milhist A-Class article that was promoted by consensus". So the way forward, it appears, is to get the article delisted so that it would be possible to implement the suggested improvements that came up in this GAR. K.e.coffman ( talk) 19:45, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
Here's a sample edit:
Original:
Strachwitz was born on 30 July 1893 in Groß Stein, in the district of Groß Strehlitz in Silesia, a province in the Kingdom of Prussia. Today it is Kamień Śląski, in Gogolin, Opole Voivodeship, Poland. Strachwitz was the second child of Hyacinth Graf Strachwitz (1864–1942) and his wife Aloysia (1872–1940), [Note 1] née Gräfin von Matuschka Freiin von Toppolczan und Spaetgen. [2] [Note 2] He had an older sister, Aloysia (1892–1972), followed by his younger brother Johannes (1896–1917) nicknamed "Ceslaus", his sister Elisabeth (1897–1992), his brother Manfred (1899–1972), his brother Mariano (1902–22), and his youngest sister Margarethe (1905–1989). [3] His family were members of the old Silesian nobility ( Uradel), and held large estates in Upper Silesia, including the family Schloss (Palace) at Groß Stein. As the first-born son he was the heir to the title Graf (Count) Strachwitz, and following family tradition he was christened Hyacinth, after the 12th century saint. Some clothing belonging to the saint were in the family's possession until 1945. [4]
Strachwitz attended the Volksschule (primary school) and the Gymnasium (advanced secondary school) in Oppeln—present-day Opole. He received further schooling and paramilitary training at the Königlich Preußischen Kadettenkorps (Royal Prussian cadet corps) in Wahlstatt—present-day Legnickie Pole—before he transferred to the Hauptkadettenanstalt (Main Military Academy) in Berlin-Lichterfelde. Among his closest friends at the cadet academy were Manfred von Richthofen, the World War I flying ace and a fellow Silesian, and Hans von Aulock, brother of the World War II colonel Andreas von Aulock. [5] In August 1912, Cadet Strachwitz was admitted to the élite Gardes du Corps (Life Guards) cavalry regiment in Potsdam as a Fähnrich (Ensign). The Life Guards had been established by Prussian King Frederick the Great in 1740, and were considered the most prestigious posting in the Imperial German Army. Their patron was Emperor Wilhelm II, who nominally commanded them. Strachwitz was sent to an officer training course at the Kriegsschule (War School) in Hanover in late 1912, where he excelled at various sports. [6] Strachwitz was commissioned as Leutnant (Second Lieutenant) on 17 February 1914. [7] At this early stage of his career in Potsdam, Strachwitz began insisting on being addressed as "Herr Graf" rather than "Herr Leutnant", even from higher-ranking officers, a quirk that he maintained throughout his career. He always felt prouder of his aristocratic descent than of his military rank. [8] His close friends called him Conté (Count). [9]
Upon his return from Hanover to the Prussian Main Military Academy, Strachwitz was appointed sports-officer for the Life Guards, where he introduced the soldiers to daily gymnastics and weekly endurance running. The sports team of the Life Guards was selected to participate in the 1916 Olympic Games, which further encouraged his ambition. He participated in many sporting activities, particularly equestrian, fencing and track and field athletics, which became his prime focus. Strachwitz continued to excel as a sportsman, and with his friend Prince Friedrich Karl of Prussia, was among the best athletes to train for the Olympic Games. [10]
Proposed:
Born in 1893, Strachwitz was the second child of Hyacinth Graf Strachwitz (1864–1942) and his wife Aloysia (1872–1940). He had two sisters and two younger brothers. His family were members of the old Silesian nobility, and held large estates in Upper Silesia, including the family manor at Groß Stein. As the first-born son he was the heir to the title Graf (Count) Strachwitz. [11] Strachwitz studied at a military academy in Berlin-Lichterfelde and was admitted to the Gardes du Corps, an élite cavalry regiment in Potsdam in August 1912. The Life Guards had been established by Prussian King Frederick the Great in 1740, and were considered the most prestigious posting in the Imperial German Army. [12] Strachwitz was commissioned as Leutnant (Second Lieutenant) on 17 February 1914. [7] Strachwitz was appointed sports-officer for the Life Guards. The sports team of the Life Guards was selected to participate in the 1916 Olympic Games. Strachwitz trained in equestrian sports, fencing and track and field, which became his prime focus. [13]
References
This allows the reader to go straight onto the subject's military career which I assume is of interested to the Wikipedia audiences, rather then genealogy and details of primary education. K.e.coffman ( talk) 20:06, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
However, this review seems overly harsh and nit-picky, to FA level. The GA criteria are much simpler and less stringent, and much of the fine-tuning of this article can be punted for later FA work (or MilHist A-Class before that, if they're still doing those assessments). — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 13:10, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
"The outcome of a reassessment should only depend on whether the article being reassessed meets the good article criteria or not."— SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼
2014 GA review: Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Hyacinth Graf Strachwitz von Groß-Zauche und Camminetz
The article has several problematic areas:
The article relies largely on one source for the article copy, containing about 160 citations to Röll:
Judging by the book cover, this appears to be a laudatory, non-peer reviewed narrative along the lines authored by other similar militaria literature writers, such as Franz Kurowski or his colleague from Der Landser writer Günter Fraschka . WP:Biased may apply. Fraschka is used in the article for a couple of what look like POV, laudatory statements (please see Neutrality section below).
The article relies largely on one source for the article copy, containing about 160 citations to Röll.(My emphasis). I looked up the publisher for Röll's book, Flechsig, and it's a nothing publisher. Is it a real company? I'm not convinced. From what I can find online, it might just be some guy in his basement. It's not carried by universities, libraries or otherwise reputable places, only things like amazon, so my jaw dropped when I looked back at the citation list with that in mind. This source does not appear to be appropriate for any BLP, especially to give that much weight to a single source for material not covered elsewhere. According to google scholar, it's only been cited two times by others. BLP's require a higher standard of sourcing than a regular article and this source seems to be the bottom of the barrel. It has no reputation, we know nothing about the editorial oversight or fact-checking, it's not referenced by experts, yet it's used to source WP:EXCEPTIONAL claims that multiple editors have now commented sound far fetched. Per WP:V: Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources." (WP's emphasis). All of the arguments in favor of this source contradict WP:NPOV and WP:BLP. I haven't heard any single convincing reason why this source is at all appropriate. Given WP:ONUS, "The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content", I feel like it's a waste of my time to keep looking for seemingly nonexistent information about this publisher. I'm open to the possibility that other editors might be able to verify for us that this actually a reliable source, but for now it doesn't appear to meet any of the criteria. —PermStrump (talk) 20:55, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
The lead is overly long and complex, making it difficult to read. It provides extraneous detail which would not normally be notable for a military figure for inclusion in the lead, such as:
The article contains excessive intricate detail, such as
The section on childhood unnecessarily long for an article on a military man, especially at this level of detail:
Military operations of low-level units are described in excessive detail, for example:
Various wounds are described in excessive detail:
Non-battlefield actions are described in excessive detail:
Non-military matters are also described in excessive detail, for example:
References
References
Most of these are junior ranks and non-notable. This could just as easily be conveyed by stating that the subject finished World War as an Oberleutnant, and World War II as Generalleutnant. The section appears to be reproducing verbatim the subject's service record, which seems to belong in the archives, and not on an encyclopedia article, especially for a mid-level officer. Otherwise, the article looks like an indiscriminate collection of primary material.
References
Three citations for material that's unlikely to be controversial do not appear to be needed.
- Scherzer and Busch & Röll have been properly researched and have found critical acclaim from scholars. In most articles they are rightly the major source.
- Fellgiebel represents the current view of the [Knight's Cross Holders Association], although biased, I can live with it, if accompanied by one of the works mentioned above.
- Range and von Seemen come from the same place, but have been superseded by Fellgiebel's work and are thus dated. Same apllies to Kurowski, who has been criticized for ignoring scholarly studies since 1957. One wonders what information can be found there that is not in one of the more reliable sources.
- Schaulen, Fraschka, and Alman are heavily NPOV, incidentally Alman is a pseudonym for Kuroswki which he used not to taint the reputation for his more serious work.
- Last, Williamson does not give footnotes nor does he provide a bibliography in his works concerned here, while obviously drawing on some of the sources already mentioned. In some cases I left his works in the list, if only because there were no other English-language publications listed.
This is an extraordinary claim and requires verification by multiple sources.
References
I would not consider Gordon Williamson (writer) to be an RS for this claim, judging by the linked article.
The article appears to contain unnecessary speculation which may be construed as original research/synthesis and is only tangentially related to the subject of the article:
Quoting from Otto Carius appears to be undue and/or speculation, to try to make light of the subject's unsuccessful battlefield performance:
Gossip mongers maintained that the Großdeutschland Panzer-Regiment was taken away from Strachwitz because he had too many losses. I had justifiable doubts concerning this claim. Graf Strachwitz and his staff were always employed at hot spots on the front, where they had to carry out extremely pressing operations, for which every form of support was provided to them. Painful losses couldn't always be avoided during those types of operations. But it was through these losses that the lives of many soldiers from other units were saved." [4]
References
Potentially unverifiable information is presented in Wikipedia's voice:
References
Unneeded foreign language translations for the terms already linked. Interested readers can click on the related links.
Excessive foreign-language spelling of unit names and piping, when English language articles for this topics are available, for example:
Overlinking to common terms (lung cancer, eulogy):
We do not need to link "eulogy", "military exercises", "burns", etc. It's DICDEF behavior. "Spies" and "saboteur" are judgment calls, and I think I would link them (though I would link spy to espionage, what he was actually accused of, and bypassing the redirect), again because they're pertinent avenues for readers getting more contextually important information. We link to help the reader understand the material.
Think it through as a reader: I learn that he was accused of things; I've heard these terms before (maybe, these days, more in the context of commercial espionage and hacker sabotage), and I wonder just what such an accusation would have entailed in this context. Our articles provide this background. I read that he died of lung cancer, which I've obviously heard of before. Was this an unusual way to go out in his era? Should he have seen it coming, since today we all know smoking is carcinogenic? Our article does in fact go into lung cancer rates and the prevalent and eventually declining "culture" of smoking in the 20th century, and how long it took to prove the connection. Now I hit the term "military exercise", a passing reference to something the subject did briefly. I really DGaF for a detailed exploration of that right now, because it doesn't tell me anything important about the bio subject. I run into "eulogy"; even if I don't actually know this word, it's kind of clear from the context, and I know what a dictionary is; reading up on the history of eulogies helps me in no way understand the subject better. And everyone over about the age of 3 knows all about burns, from having touched the hot stove or mommy's curling iron by that age; there's no reason to link this except in a context where understanding the physiology and treatment of burns is helpful (e.g. in an article on first aid, or even in this one, if the subject had died in hospital of burns received in a house fire). — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 13:01, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
The article is potentially non-neutral, as it contains POV language, such as:
References
On the last point, it's equally as likely that he got the nickname due to his aristocratic background. Williamson is not an RS for the "talent" claim. Fraschka has been mentioned in the section on sources above.
K.e.coffman ( talk) 03:00, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
Comments by AustralianRupert: Thank you for the time you have put into your review. Overall, I think the article could be edited to maintain its current assessment status. I have some comments/suggestions: AustralianRupert ( talk) 05:21, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
Comments. Agreed with every one of AR's points. (Normally I just agree silently, but this is a good article review.) Reading AR's comments carefully and PM's quickly, this looks like a "keep", though I'm not an expert on any of this. - Dank ( push to talk) 11:20, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
Comment I think this is an excellent article. Too long? Maybe. Too detail? Perhaps. Worthy of GA downgrade? Absolutely not, IMHO. Quite the opposite, I wish every article on the wiki was this detailed. Maury Markowitz ( talk) 12:29, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
Comments. I agree with AR's comments above. With that said the article could use some edits for concision in regards to length and certain details; for example, I had taken out this sentence: "Against orders, his jubilant adjutant, Unteroffizier Rosenstock, woke him up on the early morning to share the news." I also hope that you, K.e. with think about the comments made by these gentlemen above for a good rule of thumb as we all carry forward on this project. Lastly, I agree the article should not be downgraded. Note: Once a general criteria is agreed to; using this one as a model, there are other articles, some of other classes, which should have a second look. Kierzek ( talk) 13:34, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
Comment: Here's the version that I had worked up before it has been suggested that the article go through current review and the changes were reverted: June 9 version. I believe it to be superior from the readability standpoint, as it addresses the issue of excessive detail and hard to read prose. Please let me know what you guys think. K.e.coffman ( talk) 15:41, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
Comment: I think the current (original) version of the article is far superior, and disagree strongly with the proposed cuts (cutting out his entire early life?) I agree with Rupert's comments. I think that the level of detail of the article is quite appropriate, and the sourcing is fine. Hawkeye7 ( talk) 22:29, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
Comment: It will be apparent from my comments throughout that I also believe the current version is superior, the level of detail (with minor exceptions) is appropriate, and the sourcing appears fine. I'm afraid that the nominator has misunderstood or misapplied a number of core en WP policies as well as taken a strange stance on inclusion of detail in a military biography on en WP. I encourage the nominator to familiarise themselves with the expectations of the Milhist project regarding biographical articles and the detail needed to meet the comprehensiveness criteria. A study of recently promoted Milhist A-Class articles would be of value in that regard. Cheers, Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 03:32, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
Comment I saw this referenced on a talk page on my watchlist. I agree with the comments concerning neutrality and excessive detail and agree that it should not be GA status. Figureofnine ( talk • contribs) 14:12, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
Comment I saw this on the watchlist, and any article by MrBee usually gets my attention. This article has a few hiccups grammatically, but is fine. I wouldn't downgrade it to GA. Not sure why that came up. This man's life story is very interesting, certainly worthy, and offers a very nuanced view of his character. auntieruth (talk) 19:05, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
Comment - I was pinged on my talk page about this GAR (presumably because I took part in the ACR). I generally agree with Peacemaker's and Rupert's comments above. If I had thought the article was excessively detailed, I'd have raised my concerns during the ACR. Parsecboy ( talk) 19:08, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
Note for closing editor this can be closed as keep. The nominator clearly needs to better familiarise themselves with core en WP policies, as well as recently promoted A-Class military biographical articles, in order to understand community expectations regarding the structure, content and detail of GA and Milhist A-Class articles. Frankly, except for some minor points regarding excessive detail, this GAR has been a complete waste of the valuable time of a number of experienced editors, as well as the nominator. Cheers, Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 02:18, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
"The goal should not be to delist the article, but to restore it back to its former good article quality, if possible.". I did see the comment elsewhere that this GAR was initiated because attempts to clean it up were reverted on the basis that people shouldn't mess with a MILHIST A-Class article "promoted by consensus", i.e. promoted by a WP:LOCALCONSENSUS at one wikiproject. If what the wikiproject considers good and what the broader community's GA process considers good are in conflict, then the wikiproject is what needs to bend. And it is clear that quite a number of respondents here are concerned about what was called "military fancruft" making the article hard to read. That's a legit GAR concern. But a) it shouldn't take actual delisting to resolve this, and b) the flood of MILHIST trivia-poring above isn't helpful. As I noted below, GAR doesn't exist for WP:MILHIST to use as an topically local A-Class reassessment system, and GAR has its own ways and purpose. GARs are supposed to stick to the GA criteria and not be enormous, drawn-out affairs. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 21:29, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
Comment: I've seen
K.e.coffman's request for input here today on several projects and noticeboards that I follow, so finally decided to click over and take a look. I never heard of this subject before attempting to read this BLP today and I have to say, the current version is very difficult to get through and I haven't finished reading it yet, but wanted to make my first impression known as I think many readers will share the same feelings and be turned off from the article. For me, the main things making it difficult to read are the frequent,
inappropriate use of foreign language terms, excessive footnoting,
overlinking, and the over-abundance of minor details (in both the lead and the body) instead of using the recommended
summary style. If a reader is interested in that level of detail, they will go to the sources, but indiscriminately including details just because it's provided in biographies on the subject is
unencyclopedic. I haven't had enough time to look into the sources, so won't weigh in on the POV issues yet, but given the
excessive length and poor readability alone, I'm honestly surprised that people are arguing to keep this at GA status. For example, one of the main criteria for
featured articles is: Length. It stays focused on the main topic without going into unnecessary detail and uses
summary style
. It makes sense for a GA to be aiming in FA direction as well. I think it should be de-listed until after improvements are made and it is reassessed.
—PermStrump
(talk) 23:10, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
"Editors should bear in mind that GA is not FA, tolerance is needed where sources may be difficult or impossible to find, and that this article is not subject to the rules of BLP. Somehow a mention should preferably be built into to the article that much of the information relies on a single source (e.g. 'according to Röll...) . BTW, that source may be a paid-for vanity publication and it would be of interest for a Wikipedia editor fluent in German (as I am for example) to obtain a copy and read it).
- The lede is overly detailed - a lot of it is material for the article body.
- Military operations of low-level units are described in excessive detail unless he received military decoration for his actions in these operations or campaigns.There is often a tendency on Wikipedia to provide excessive detail in many kinds of articles. Such detail is beyond the requirement of encyclopedic entries whose main objective is to direct the reader to more detailed externally available information rather than excessively reproducing (paraphrasing, etc) that information.
- A lot of fine detail such as, just for example,but not only, the type of war wounds, their hopitalisations, and treatment, etc, are excessive.
- A lot of the detail is unnecessary because it does not directly relate to Strachwitz and some paragraphs could be significantly reduced such as, for example:
On 30 January 1933, the Nazi Party, under the leadership of Adolf Hitler, came to power and began to rearm Germany. The Heer (Germany Army) was increased and modernized with a strong focus on the Panzer (tank) force. Personnel were recruited from the cavalry. In October 1935 Panzer-Regiment 2 was created and was subordinated to the 1st Panzer Division, at the time under command of General Maximilian von Weichs. The soldiers of the I. Abteilung (1st Battalion) came from Saxony and Thuringia, the II. Abteilung (2nd Battalion) was made up from soldiers from Silesia. Strachwitz, who had served as an officer of the reserves in Reiter-Regiment 7 (7th Cavalry Regiment) in Breslau, had asked to be transferred to the Panzer force and, in May 1936, participated in his first manoeuvre on the training ground at Ohrdruf, followed by an exercise of live firing on the gunnery training ground at Putlos—today in the administrative district of Oldenburg-Land—near the Baltic Sea. A year later, from July to August 1937, he participated in a second reserve training exercise on the Silesian training grounds at Neuhammer—present-day Świętoszów.[23]
to:
In 1933 the Nazi administration began to rearm Germany and the army was increased and reorganised with a focus on tank warfare. Strachwitz, who had served in Reiter-Regiment 7 (7th Cavalry Regiment) had asked to be transferred to the Panzer force and in 1936 participated in his first manoeuvre, followed by gunnery training at Putlos (today Oldenburg-Land). In 1937 he participated in further training at Neuhammer (present-day Świętoszów.)
- The word Schloss in German, just as château in French, can mean anything from a country house, manor or mansion ,through stately home, and palace, to a fortified castle. Usually associated with aristocracy of some kind but may also refer to the residence of large land owners.
To conclude, I personally believe that with consideration to the above points, the article could easily retain (or regain) its GA status."
//Quoted material ends.//
To clarify, my original intention was not to get the article delisted, but rather to improve the article by addressing the difficult prose, non-encyclopedic language and excessive detail. However, my edits, which I considered an improvement, were reverted on the grounds that: " This type of "death of a thousand cuts" is inappropriate for an Milhist A-Class article that was promoted by consensus". So the way forward, it appears, is to get the article delisted so that it would be possible to implement the suggested improvements that came up in this GAR. K.e.coffman ( talk) 19:45, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
Here's a sample edit:
Original:
Strachwitz was born on 30 July 1893 in Groß Stein, in the district of Groß Strehlitz in Silesia, a province in the Kingdom of Prussia. Today it is Kamień Śląski, in Gogolin, Opole Voivodeship, Poland. Strachwitz was the second child of Hyacinth Graf Strachwitz (1864–1942) and his wife Aloysia (1872–1940), [Note 1] née Gräfin von Matuschka Freiin von Toppolczan und Spaetgen. [2] [Note 2] He had an older sister, Aloysia (1892–1972), followed by his younger brother Johannes (1896–1917) nicknamed "Ceslaus", his sister Elisabeth (1897–1992), his brother Manfred (1899–1972), his brother Mariano (1902–22), and his youngest sister Margarethe (1905–1989). [3] His family were members of the old Silesian nobility ( Uradel), and held large estates in Upper Silesia, including the family Schloss (Palace) at Groß Stein. As the first-born son he was the heir to the title Graf (Count) Strachwitz, and following family tradition he was christened Hyacinth, after the 12th century saint. Some clothing belonging to the saint were in the family's possession until 1945. [4]
Strachwitz attended the Volksschule (primary school) and the Gymnasium (advanced secondary school) in Oppeln—present-day Opole. He received further schooling and paramilitary training at the Königlich Preußischen Kadettenkorps (Royal Prussian cadet corps) in Wahlstatt—present-day Legnickie Pole—before he transferred to the Hauptkadettenanstalt (Main Military Academy) in Berlin-Lichterfelde. Among his closest friends at the cadet academy were Manfred von Richthofen, the World War I flying ace and a fellow Silesian, and Hans von Aulock, brother of the World War II colonel Andreas von Aulock. [5] In August 1912, Cadet Strachwitz was admitted to the élite Gardes du Corps (Life Guards) cavalry regiment in Potsdam as a Fähnrich (Ensign). The Life Guards had been established by Prussian King Frederick the Great in 1740, and were considered the most prestigious posting in the Imperial German Army. Their patron was Emperor Wilhelm II, who nominally commanded them. Strachwitz was sent to an officer training course at the Kriegsschule (War School) in Hanover in late 1912, where he excelled at various sports. [6] Strachwitz was commissioned as Leutnant (Second Lieutenant) on 17 February 1914. [7] At this early stage of his career in Potsdam, Strachwitz began insisting on being addressed as "Herr Graf" rather than "Herr Leutnant", even from higher-ranking officers, a quirk that he maintained throughout his career. He always felt prouder of his aristocratic descent than of his military rank. [8] His close friends called him Conté (Count). [9]
Upon his return from Hanover to the Prussian Main Military Academy, Strachwitz was appointed sports-officer for the Life Guards, where he introduced the soldiers to daily gymnastics and weekly endurance running. The sports team of the Life Guards was selected to participate in the 1916 Olympic Games, which further encouraged his ambition. He participated in many sporting activities, particularly equestrian, fencing and track and field athletics, which became his prime focus. Strachwitz continued to excel as a sportsman, and with his friend Prince Friedrich Karl of Prussia, was among the best athletes to train for the Olympic Games. [10]
Proposed:
Born in 1893, Strachwitz was the second child of Hyacinth Graf Strachwitz (1864–1942) and his wife Aloysia (1872–1940). He had two sisters and two younger brothers. His family were members of the old Silesian nobility, and held large estates in Upper Silesia, including the family manor at Groß Stein. As the first-born son he was the heir to the title Graf (Count) Strachwitz. [11] Strachwitz studied at a military academy in Berlin-Lichterfelde and was admitted to the Gardes du Corps, an élite cavalry regiment in Potsdam in August 1912. The Life Guards had been established by Prussian King Frederick the Great in 1740, and were considered the most prestigious posting in the Imperial German Army. [12] Strachwitz was commissioned as Leutnant (Second Lieutenant) on 17 February 1914. [7] Strachwitz was appointed sports-officer for the Life Guards. The sports team of the Life Guards was selected to participate in the 1916 Olympic Games. Strachwitz trained in equestrian sports, fencing and track and field, which became his prime focus. [13]
References
This allows the reader to go straight onto the subject's military career which I assume is of interested to the Wikipedia audiences, rather then genealogy and details of primary education. K.e.coffman ( talk) 20:06, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
However, this review seems overly harsh and nit-picky, to FA level. The GA criteria are much simpler and less stringent, and much of the fine-tuning of this article can be punted for later FA work (or MilHist A-Class before that, if they're still doing those assessments). — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 13:10, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
"The outcome of a reassessment should only depend on whether the article being reassessed meets the good article criteria or not."— SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼