A very readable, succinct, and highly syncretic Wikipedia feature. Reads like a thriller. Self-nomination. Sandover 05:08, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I had no idea that misinformation deleted a month ago from the 1755 Lisbon earthquake entry ("roving priests" who exacted vengeance in the streets of Lisbon) appeared in the Washington Post, nor that Wikipedia was being blamed for originating the error. Thank you, Michael Snow, for writing it up, and for providing the links to the two online columns from a vigilant homeschooling parent in Canton, Ohio, Theresa Carpanelli (who apparently appears on her own religious radio show, "Truth Matters"). All of this yet another curious ripple effect of a sublime event which occurred just shy of 250 years ago. Just Fascinating.
According to Michael Snow, the offending Washington Post piece was published on December 31, 2004. (Theresa Carpanelli says December 30th in her article.) I only saw the 1755 Lisbon earthquake entry in the days following the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake (I confess I was much more preoccupied with contributions to the tsunami article, which was little more than a stub at the time of the Dec 26 tsunami).
By the time I made my first edit, on January 19, the discussion page already raged with Carpanelli's (anonymous) objections. She altered the entry itself only to make a request for footnotes, but never troubled herself to actually delete the offending Wikipedia material on her own. The offending line was deleted on January 20th (and never restored). Carpanelli continued to rage about the line on the discussion page until January 29th.
If there's one thing that really troubles me about Carpanelli's seemingly well-researched complaint, it's the way she wilfully misrepresents the Wikipedia editing process. "I requested of Wikipedia that a source be cited for this allegation. The person with whom I was corresponding claimed not to have written the line, that it was a 'remnant' from a previous version; but she left it in anyway. She writes: 'i dont have a reference though i dont find the allegation strange, considering the power of the Jesuits at the time and the religious fanatism of the time' [sic]." Carpanelli doesn't mention the fact that this exchange occurred on the discussion page (where informal, uncapitalized language is commonplace) and that she herself was able (and, in fact, invited repeatedly) to delete the reference if she objected to it.
An uninformed reader of Carpanelli's column (and I would surmise that the vast majority of Ms. Carpanelli's readers are unfamiliar with Wiki practices, and Carpanelli did nothing to enlighten them) would draw the conclusion that this exchange occurred with a spelling-challenged gatekeeper of some sort, someone in a formal administrative capacity at Wikipedia, someone with a grudge against Catholics, someone who refused to make a change, rather than with another contributor (a well-meaning one at that) who was actually trying to resolve the problem and help get to the bottom of the truth and the origins of the allegation.
Indeed, truth matters. But if Carpanelli really cared about the truth, she would have resolved the matter on her own and edited the line out (as suggested to her). Instead, it's obvious that she preferred to see the error stand as long as possible. (Or should I say possible error -- because she has by no means proved the original allegation of "roaming priests" false. To my mind, Carpanelli's calculated misrepresentation of Wikipedia's editing process only shows me that she is capable of distorting a lot of other facts as well. Given how interesting this debate about "roving priests" has become, I intend to fully examine the allegation going back two and half centuries and incorporate them into the entry. It's obviously quite relevant to the social implications and effects of the 1755 earthquake, which continue to this day. It's interesting to note that the Portuguese Inquisition, which raged for centuries against suspected crypto-Jews or marranos, continued past the earthquake until 1765, and there's no doubt that the 1755 earthquake and tsunami affected the dynamic involved in Church authority. It's also interesting that Voltaire's Candide has a character who, yes, is hanged after being overheard discussing the earthquake outside of an orthodox religious context. "This was not customary", Voltaire writes, obviously in full satirical flourish -- though whether he is simply satirizing priests' actions, or exagerrating those actions for satirical effect, is something I've yet to determine. Perhaps Voltaire to blame for this anti-Catholic slur against priests; Carpanelli suggests as much. We'll see.)
Carpanelli cannot prove that Wikipedia was the reporter's source. Her addendum to the article, which summarizes a conversation with the Washington Post reporter, reveals that he used other sources as well.
And by the way, I was not, prior to this, affiliated in any way with Catholic Exchange, so my correspondence with Ms. Gottrop had no motive other than a search for a credible source. I asked CE them to help me get this information corrected, since it has proliferated so widely since the Post article came out, but had no idea of that during my corresponsence with Wikipedia. My beef was with the Post, and my intention for writing the Part Three article is to conclude with my discussion with the Washington Post. But now that I have read such ad hominem and hostile accounts of my alleged "intentions" with regard to Wikipedia, and the unjust charges to which I have been subjected, simply because I am trying to obtain the truth of the allegation, I feel I must spend some time discussing that, as well. Ms. Gottrop has apologized for offending my Faith, and it was probably my ignorance and frustration in how to ask for what I wanted on Wikipedia that led to her irritated reply to me. But as I have stated elsewhere, Wikipedia users - and that is what I was - NOT a contributer - should not have to go through this to get a simple question resolved. Polycarp7 09:50, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I was completely unaware of any of this controversy until I opened my Wikipedia homepage this morning. It's funny to see my username cited in it, and to be given credit as the one who finally deleted the objectionable material. To be honest, I didn't give it too much thought. I deleted it merely because the discussion was getting hot, because Carpanelli's (anonymous and unsigned) objections on the entry itself were beginning to take over the page (nb: I never had any exchange or dialogue with Carpanelli myself). It was obvious -- although Carpanelli doesn't say this in her own article -- that no one seriously defended the allegation about roaming priests, apart from the one offhand comment (which Carpanelli quotes). On deleting the citation, I figured that if someone was going to re-insert that slur into the article, they could only do so only with supporting information. That's normal Wikipedia procedure, and the slur has not reappeared.
I agree that it would be better to let this issue die down now before reconsidering the article for FA. But the feature status shouldn't depend on whether at one point there was false information in the article (if, indeed, that information was false). The obstacle to feature status, as pointed out by a number of observers, is that the philosophical implications section needs to be fleshed out in a much more thorough way; since I haven't received other complaints, this section is going to be my future focus. I (and I hope others) will have to do a bit of homework on it. I also want to track down an image of the Marquis of Pombal and perhaps other illustrations.
I hope the entry keeps its quirky, concise character. One of the things I most admire about the 1755 Lisbon earthquake is that it manages a complex and varied topic with brevity: it has benefited from the surgical intervention of (among others) an amateur historian, geologist, a tourist who loves Lisbon (that would be me), and several philosophers, none of whom decided to make it their own magnum opus. I hope the entry stays that way and never becomes bloated. Notwithstanding my rather extended comments here, quantity is not quality. Thanks, everyone, for the good advice. Sandover 18:00, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC) Sandover 20:21, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC) [revised] Sandover 02:00, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC) [revised]]
As the person directly involved with Ms. Carpanelli i have to say a couple of things: i was never impolite (despite the hysterical, slightly irritating tone of her notes) and i tried to motivate her to edit the article, i even left welcoming message at her talk page. The whole affair can be followed in Talk:1755 Lisbon earthquake. I am quite amazed with what is said about her article. She acted in absolute bad faith with me and with the project and i'm finding very strange that the acts of a biased scandal-seeking person are depriving the article from feature status. I agree with Bishonen et al. objections about the philosophical section and i'm only sorry that my knowledge is not enough to answer their requirements. These are valid objections and I hope Sandover is successful in his attempt to clarify them. Ms. Carpanelli's article is not a valid objection and i cant believe that this will be held against the article in the future. muriel@pt 21:46, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
encyclopedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2005-02-14/Misinformation_on_Wikipedia
Well, even though this entry is my baby, I'm going to object for now, because I believe it should be made much better on a number of levels, including the historical and philosophical. Thanks, everyone, for putting those references onto the page; I have a little background myself in philosophy and look forward to following the syllabus. It will be a project of mine over the coming months. The Theresa Carpinelli controversy (described above) has piqued my interest and directed me to other resources I didn't know existed. Because Wikipedia is the second hit when a person googles "Lisbon earthquake", we deserve better before the 250th anniversary (November 1). Stay tuned.
I'm not the best with images and layout, and agree that the one added yesterday deserves to be a) larger and b) outfitted with a frame and caption. Perhaps -- even -- the central part of the image should be expanded as a "cameo." There are more images on the way. Also, if there are any Portuguese readers who can have a look the newly-published November 2004 book by Joao Duarte Fonseca (ISBN 972-8479-32-8, published by Argumentum in Lisbon under a UNESCO grant), I'm told its an excellent resource. Sandover 16:49, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The two-dimensional work of art depicted in this image is in the public domain in the United States and in those countries with a copyright term of life of the author plus 100 years. This photograph of the work is also in the public domain in the United States (see Bridgeman Art Library v. Corel Corp.).
A very readable, succinct, and highly syncretic Wikipedia feature. Reads like a thriller. Self-nomination. Sandover 05:08, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I had no idea that misinformation deleted a month ago from the 1755 Lisbon earthquake entry ("roving priests" who exacted vengeance in the streets of Lisbon) appeared in the Washington Post, nor that Wikipedia was being blamed for originating the error. Thank you, Michael Snow, for writing it up, and for providing the links to the two online columns from a vigilant homeschooling parent in Canton, Ohio, Theresa Carpanelli (who apparently appears on her own religious radio show, "Truth Matters"). All of this yet another curious ripple effect of a sublime event which occurred just shy of 250 years ago. Just Fascinating.
According to Michael Snow, the offending Washington Post piece was published on December 31, 2004. (Theresa Carpanelli says December 30th in her article.) I only saw the 1755 Lisbon earthquake entry in the days following the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake (I confess I was much more preoccupied with contributions to the tsunami article, which was little more than a stub at the time of the Dec 26 tsunami).
By the time I made my first edit, on January 19, the discussion page already raged with Carpanelli's (anonymous) objections. She altered the entry itself only to make a request for footnotes, but never troubled herself to actually delete the offending Wikipedia material on her own. The offending line was deleted on January 20th (and never restored). Carpanelli continued to rage about the line on the discussion page until January 29th.
If there's one thing that really troubles me about Carpanelli's seemingly well-researched complaint, it's the way she wilfully misrepresents the Wikipedia editing process. "I requested of Wikipedia that a source be cited for this allegation. The person with whom I was corresponding claimed not to have written the line, that it was a 'remnant' from a previous version; but she left it in anyway. She writes: 'i dont have a reference though i dont find the allegation strange, considering the power of the Jesuits at the time and the religious fanatism of the time' [sic]." Carpanelli doesn't mention the fact that this exchange occurred on the discussion page (where informal, uncapitalized language is commonplace) and that she herself was able (and, in fact, invited repeatedly) to delete the reference if she objected to it.
An uninformed reader of Carpanelli's column (and I would surmise that the vast majority of Ms. Carpanelli's readers are unfamiliar with Wiki practices, and Carpanelli did nothing to enlighten them) would draw the conclusion that this exchange occurred with a spelling-challenged gatekeeper of some sort, someone in a formal administrative capacity at Wikipedia, someone with a grudge against Catholics, someone who refused to make a change, rather than with another contributor (a well-meaning one at that) who was actually trying to resolve the problem and help get to the bottom of the truth and the origins of the allegation.
Indeed, truth matters. But if Carpanelli really cared about the truth, she would have resolved the matter on her own and edited the line out (as suggested to her). Instead, it's obvious that she preferred to see the error stand as long as possible. (Or should I say possible error -- because she has by no means proved the original allegation of "roaming priests" false. To my mind, Carpanelli's calculated misrepresentation of Wikipedia's editing process only shows me that she is capable of distorting a lot of other facts as well. Given how interesting this debate about "roving priests" has become, I intend to fully examine the allegation going back two and half centuries and incorporate them into the entry. It's obviously quite relevant to the social implications and effects of the 1755 earthquake, which continue to this day. It's interesting to note that the Portuguese Inquisition, which raged for centuries against suspected crypto-Jews or marranos, continued past the earthquake until 1765, and there's no doubt that the 1755 earthquake and tsunami affected the dynamic involved in Church authority. It's also interesting that Voltaire's Candide has a character who, yes, is hanged after being overheard discussing the earthquake outside of an orthodox religious context. "This was not customary", Voltaire writes, obviously in full satirical flourish -- though whether he is simply satirizing priests' actions, or exagerrating those actions for satirical effect, is something I've yet to determine. Perhaps Voltaire to blame for this anti-Catholic slur against priests; Carpanelli suggests as much. We'll see.)
Carpanelli cannot prove that Wikipedia was the reporter's source. Her addendum to the article, which summarizes a conversation with the Washington Post reporter, reveals that he used other sources as well.
And by the way, I was not, prior to this, affiliated in any way with Catholic Exchange, so my correspondence with Ms. Gottrop had no motive other than a search for a credible source. I asked CE them to help me get this information corrected, since it has proliferated so widely since the Post article came out, but had no idea of that during my corresponsence with Wikipedia. My beef was with the Post, and my intention for writing the Part Three article is to conclude with my discussion with the Washington Post. But now that I have read such ad hominem and hostile accounts of my alleged "intentions" with regard to Wikipedia, and the unjust charges to which I have been subjected, simply because I am trying to obtain the truth of the allegation, I feel I must spend some time discussing that, as well. Ms. Gottrop has apologized for offending my Faith, and it was probably my ignorance and frustration in how to ask for what I wanted on Wikipedia that led to her irritated reply to me. But as I have stated elsewhere, Wikipedia users - and that is what I was - NOT a contributer - should not have to go through this to get a simple question resolved. Polycarp7 09:50, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I was completely unaware of any of this controversy until I opened my Wikipedia homepage this morning. It's funny to see my username cited in it, and to be given credit as the one who finally deleted the objectionable material. To be honest, I didn't give it too much thought. I deleted it merely because the discussion was getting hot, because Carpanelli's (anonymous and unsigned) objections on the entry itself were beginning to take over the page (nb: I never had any exchange or dialogue with Carpanelli myself). It was obvious -- although Carpanelli doesn't say this in her own article -- that no one seriously defended the allegation about roaming priests, apart from the one offhand comment (which Carpanelli quotes). On deleting the citation, I figured that if someone was going to re-insert that slur into the article, they could only do so only with supporting information. That's normal Wikipedia procedure, and the slur has not reappeared.
I agree that it would be better to let this issue die down now before reconsidering the article for FA. But the feature status shouldn't depend on whether at one point there was false information in the article (if, indeed, that information was false). The obstacle to feature status, as pointed out by a number of observers, is that the philosophical implications section needs to be fleshed out in a much more thorough way; since I haven't received other complaints, this section is going to be my future focus. I (and I hope others) will have to do a bit of homework on it. I also want to track down an image of the Marquis of Pombal and perhaps other illustrations.
I hope the entry keeps its quirky, concise character. One of the things I most admire about the 1755 Lisbon earthquake is that it manages a complex and varied topic with brevity: it has benefited from the surgical intervention of (among others) an amateur historian, geologist, a tourist who loves Lisbon (that would be me), and several philosophers, none of whom decided to make it their own magnum opus. I hope the entry stays that way and never becomes bloated. Notwithstanding my rather extended comments here, quantity is not quality. Thanks, everyone, for the good advice. Sandover 18:00, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC) Sandover 20:21, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC) [revised] Sandover 02:00, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC) [revised]]
As the person directly involved with Ms. Carpanelli i have to say a couple of things: i was never impolite (despite the hysterical, slightly irritating tone of her notes) and i tried to motivate her to edit the article, i even left welcoming message at her talk page. The whole affair can be followed in Talk:1755 Lisbon earthquake. I am quite amazed with what is said about her article. She acted in absolute bad faith with me and with the project and i'm finding very strange that the acts of a biased scandal-seeking person are depriving the article from feature status. I agree with Bishonen et al. objections about the philosophical section and i'm only sorry that my knowledge is not enough to answer their requirements. These are valid objections and I hope Sandover is successful in his attempt to clarify them. Ms. Carpanelli's article is not a valid objection and i cant believe that this will be held against the article in the future. muriel@pt 21:46, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
encyclopedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2005-02-14/Misinformation_on_Wikipedia
Well, even though this entry is my baby, I'm going to object for now, because I believe it should be made much better on a number of levels, including the historical and philosophical. Thanks, everyone, for putting those references onto the page; I have a little background myself in philosophy and look forward to following the syllabus. It will be a project of mine over the coming months. The Theresa Carpinelli controversy (described above) has piqued my interest and directed me to other resources I didn't know existed. Because Wikipedia is the second hit when a person googles "Lisbon earthquake", we deserve better before the 250th anniversary (November 1). Stay tuned.
I'm not the best with images and layout, and agree that the one added yesterday deserves to be a) larger and b) outfitted with a frame and caption. Perhaps -- even -- the central part of the image should be expanded as a "cameo." There are more images on the way. Also, if there are any Portuguese readers who can have a look the newly-published November 2004 book by Joao Duarte Fonseca (ISBN 972-8479-32-8, published by Argumentum in Lisbon under a UNESCO grant), I'm told its an excellent resource. Sandover 16:49, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The two-dimensional work of art depicted in this image is in the public domain in the United States and in those countries with a copyright term of life of the author plus 100 years. This photograph of the work is also in the public domain in the United States (see Bridgeman Art Library v. Corel Corp.).