The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:merge, except not the Invercargill one.
Good Ol’factory(talk) 04:07, 14 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: merge per
WP:SMALLCAT, just one, two or three articles in each of these categories and they are not part of a large overall accepted sub-categorization scheme.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 21:40, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Merge for Now While these places would have had more than five mayors, most would be non-notable. No objection to recreating any if they exceed expectations and reaches 5+ articles. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 22:54, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
keep Invercargill category which is well populated (20 articles!); merge others with no prejudice against re-creation per RevelationDirect.
Grutness...wha? 01:50, 7 January 2021 (UTC) arereply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:People from Sunderland, Tyne and Wear
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:rename. –
FayenaticLondon 10:55, 8 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Odd, given one of the comments was Support Renames to match title of parent article and reduce ambiguity. --
Necrothesp (
talk) 16:40, 18 November 2020 (UTC)reply
Rename per nom. Seems very unlikely that any other Sunderland would vie with this one for primary topic.
Grutness...wha? 14:38, 28 November 2020 (UTC)reply
Birmingham and Plymouth names are mistakes in the article space and should be renamed as they are not
WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. That's not the case here, as
Sunderland is the primary topic (as is Carlisle). -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 21:12, 28 November 2020 (UTC)reply
Keep -- AS with Birmingham, sometimes a category needs disambiguation when the article does not: people do not always check before adding a category that they have chosen an appropriate one.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 17:17, 28 November 2020 (UTC)reply
Rename This category seems unlikely to be confusing as it's usually clear if someone is from England or Vermont and as a firm rejection of
Birmingham/
Category:Birmingham, West Midlands as a precedent. Being more concerned about confusion in Hotcat versus going to the wrong article values avoiding wasting a editor's time over avoiding wasting an reader's time which isn't a sound basis for an encyclopedia. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 21:07, 28 November 2020 (UTC)reply
Rename. Clear primary topic and matches article title. These arguments that names that aren't ambiguous in article titles but can be ambiguous in categories have always been ludicrous. If one is the primary topic then the other one is too. --
Necrothesp (
talk) 12:15, 2 December 2020 (UTC)reply
I don't think its ludicrous, it is easy to add incorrect pages with hotcat etc without having any idea what the category's scope is but in this case that's not very likely given the size of this place compared to others and USPLACE. Crouch, Swale (
talk) 10:13, 9 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose we need to be unambiguous in category names more than in article ones.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 19:36, 10 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Ymblanter (
talk) 06:25, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment. The discussion was originally closed as '''Rename'''. Consistent with [[WP:C2C]] '''and''' [[WP:C2D]], repudiation of mistakes. <small>[[Wikipedia:NACD|(non-admin closure)]]</small> [[User:William Allen Simpson|William Allen Simpson]] ([[User talk:William Allen Simpson|talk]]) 12:39, 30 December 2020 (UTC). I unlclose it because I believe it is not amenable to NAC--
Ymblanter (
talk) 20:51, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
So it should be described here as a re-listing and templated as such, no?
Grutness...wha? 01:56, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment I just accidentally re-voted (and then deleted that). @
Ymblanter: please template this. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 03:20, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment — this is not a proper re-list. This was never taken to
Wikipedia:Deletion review. For !vote counters, it was 6:3:1. In closing this complex discussion that had languished for more than a month, I've read everything, including the speedy nomination, and the cited prior nominations, and the history log of the main article. William Allen Simpson (
talk) 11:28, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
No admin agreed to implement the close, and we can not keep the discussion closed and the categories not acted on.--
Ymblanter (
talk) 11:31, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
You refused to implement the close. Did any other adminstrators refuse? There's no record of it. This is a violation of the
Wikipedia:Deletion process, that I helped write nearly 15 years ago, and specifically allows non-administrative closes. You also failed to properly format the relisting, and failed to notify the closer. Why cannot administrators follow the rules? William Allen Simpson (
talk) 11:46, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Question@
Ymblanter: How is no admin being willing to enact the decision helped by relisting? Won't we be in the same boat a week from now? -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 15:26, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
CFD nominations must be closed by admins, at least if the result is move, because one of the conditions of NACs is that discussions requiring administrative intervention are not eligible. Because of the backlogs, some non-admins sometimes close CFD discussions, and ask admins to enact the close at
Wikipedia talk:Categories for discussion/Working (the page itself is fully protected, and non-admins can not edit it). Usually we enact the closes. However, if I enact such a close I take the responsibility for the close, and I am only willing to do it if I, well, not necessarily agree with it, but at least consider it valid (another NAC requirement is that the discussion must be non-contentious). In this case, I was not prepared to take the responsibility and refused to enact the close. This is perfectly according to the policies, because I am not in any way required to enact it. No other admin showed an interest, and I had to unclose. The whole nomination page for 27 November was already done, and it was not an option to unclose the discussion and leave it at that page. I expect that in a week, an admin will close the discussion (in fact, any admin can do it any moment now, since the discussion is older than seven days).--
Ymblanter (
talk) 15:37, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Back when I'd made CfD and TfD as Discussion (instead of Deletion) many years ago, we didn't address AfD as that was already well established. I've always treated them the same. Requested moves are treated the same as deletion, and renamed categories are similar to moves. Could update the text:
For appealing the deletion of a page or outcome of a deletion discussion that appears to be against community consensus, if the request is outside of the scope of requests for undeletion, and after discussing with the deleting administrator or closer respectively.
For appealing the closure of a requested move, including one that resulted in a deletion or merger, if it appears to be against consensus or proper closing procedure, and after discussing with the closer.
Move review not deletion review since this CFD clearly has nothing to do with inclusion and I agree this shouldn't have been re-opened unilaterally even though the citation of C2D in close was incorrect (C2C yes per
Category:Sunderland but not C2D since Sunderland is ambiguous). Crouch, Swale (
talk) 19:35, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
As noted in the original discussion:
WP:C2DConsistency with main article's name. Better solid criteria than endless arguing. (I had you down as the only undecided. Are you decided now?) William Allen Simpson (
talk) 22:51, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
C2D does not generally apply if the article's name is ambiguous even when the main article is the primary topic of its name, i.e. it does not contain a disambiguator). Crouch, Swale (
talk) 08:16, 8 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Clarification@
MER-C,
Fayenatic london, and
Good Olfactory: In the relisting above, User:Ymblanter indicated there had been broad admin concern about implementing the original close of the nomination but I was having trouble finding that conversation
in this search. Can you provide any background so we can (if appropriate) reconsider our !votes? -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 15:35, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
I do not think I said there was a "broad admin concern", it is just nobody has enacted the close for a week.--
Ymblanter (
talk) 15:39, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
What we're supposed to do is take the rogue administrator to the administrator incidents to be reviewed by the Bureaucrats and Steward (assuming that process is still around). But we're short on CfD participants. Years ago we had fewer daily nominations with more participants and more closers. So we need him to actually do the work. We just need to rein in some administrators who have gotten a bit self-important. He's actually written:
I am not going to implement this close (and I believe the close of 5 December is not good, and definitely not in NAC domain), as well as any future closes by this user. I hope another administrator can look at them.--Ymblanter (talk) 11:50, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
Well, may be you should first learn which processes are still around, and then start complaining about my breach of non-existing policies.--
Ymblanter (
talk) 15:51, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
You have the shoe on the wrong foot. Justifying is a requirement for you:
Administrators should not revert a closure based solely on the fact that the original closer was not an administrator, based on consensus following
this request for comment. Per
WP:ADMINACCT, administrators are expected to promptly and civilly justify their decision to revert based on an assessment of the local
consensus and application of Wikipedia
policy and guidelines.
This is not what I did. I believe that your close does not reflect consensus. I made it very clear from the beginning. May I please remind you again that I am not under obligation to implement your close, and any other administrator can do it any moment.--
Ymblanter (
talk) 16:13, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
As an aside, I will say that overall participating in CFD has declined (I attribute that to not displaying cats on mobile view) and I appreciate admins who are volunteering their time. I don't think that get's us to agreement on this item but I want to make that general statement. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 16:35, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
As another aside, non-admin closures are supposed to reduce the burden for admins. By closing a discussion but not being able to implement the outcome, the burden for admins is hardly reduced. That is sort of pointless, really.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 17:52, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
It greatly reduces the effort, as they aren't required to think, just run the bot (so that we don't have to do them by hand). We don't want everybody to be able to run the bot; that's why the Working page is protected. (Heck, I used to run my own Botryoidal, but haven't re-qualified it for years, as that computer is long gone.) As closers are experienced and independent, there shouldn't be any second-guessing involved. Once you have them second-guessing every closure, that way lies madness. William Allen Simpson (
talk) 22:40, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Actually, I have done this above, but I can try again. The deletion policy says
Non-administrators should limit their closes to outcomes they have the technical ability to implement; for example, non-admins should not close a discussion as delete, because only admins can delete pages.
This is because administrators are not expected to blindly implement closes, but they are responsible for all the administrative actions they perform (for the sake of the argument, and not trying to relate it to the current discussion - imagine somebody summarizes an obscure discussion and decides we need to delete the main page - you do not expect me to implement this). I am willing (but have no obligation) to implement fully uncontroversial decisions (which for CFD typically means full consensus, no dissenters possibly except for the nominator). Everything else is easier for me to close from scratch than to see whether I can subscribe to the arguments of the closer.--
Ymblanter (
talk) 08:23, 8 January 2021 (UTC)reply
That's not policy. That's an essay. We have a
Working section for non-administrative closures, where an administrator is expected to run the bot. If the administrator wants to challenge the closure, the administrator is expected to follow the review rules just like everybody else. Moreover, that's not the meaning of
WP:CONSENSUSpolicy. Wikipedia doesn't need one of the most senior
Internauts and experienced
Wikipedians in the world to close unanimous decisions. I'm only interested in those that require thought, and usually where I'll learn something interesting. William Allen Simpson (
talk) 09:57, 8 January 2021 (UTC)reply
What I cited is exactlyWikipedia:Deletion process which is not an essay, it is a guideline. If you want to close discussions not eligible for NACs, and if you are so experienced, why do not you get an admin flag via RfA first? There is not single Wikipedia policy which would put me under obligation to enact your closes I disagree with.
WT:CFDW#NACs is not a policy.--
Ymblanter (
talk) 10:14, 8 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Adding on that, we can't expect any editor to blindly follow up on another editor's request, regardless of the nature of the request. You always remain responsible for your own actions. That applies just as well (or even more) to administrators.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 13:11, 8 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep - C2C and C2D do not apply anyway as there is ambiguity. Arguments that category names should follow ambiguous article names have always been risible.
Oculi (
talk) 18:17, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
C2D also says that it doesn't apply if the title is ambiguous, which is clearly the case here.
ArmbrustTheHomunculus 10:13, 13 January 2021 (UTC)reply
I still say keep -- This is (I think) not the only place called Sunderland. Without the disambiguator, it is likely to collect articles on other places (see
Sunderland (disambiguation)).
Peterkingiron (
talk) Peterkingiron (UTC)
Duplicate !vote — see 17:17, 28 November 2020 — still 7 rename, 4 keep, 1 undecided; after 6 weeks, and my previous close at 6:3:1. Even the fence sitter says "it probably makes sense." William Allen Simpson (
talk) 13:06, 14 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Rename. With 175,000 inhabitants, this Sunderland is by far the largest and the most notable one, way above
Sunderland, Massachusetts at 3,700, all other places called Sunderland having less than 1,000 inhabitants. The confusion is unlikely.
Place Clichy (
talk) 17:07, 15 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep categories need to be better disambiguated than articles.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 13:24, 25 January 2021 (UTC)reply
To avoid miscategorisation of unrelated articles. While being ambiguous isn't a problem in the article space, it would need constant maintenance in the category namespace.
ArmbrustTheHomunculus 14:16, 29 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Category:People from Paris and
Category:People from London don't seem to have this problem, even though there are some fairly well-populated places (which aren't the capitals of France and the UK) that use those names. As far as I have been able to tell, mis-categorization by confusion is a pretty rare phenomenon when we're dealing with a clear primary topic.
Good Ol’factory(talk) 04:58, 30 January 2021 (UTC)reply
I don't think Sunderland is on the same level of recognition as Paris or London.
ArmbrustTheHomunculus 19:41, 30 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Once we admit that some "needed" disambiguations are not actually needed in category space, we are dealing with an entirely subjective sense of "how big is big enough?" or "how known is well-known enough?" Where do we draw the line? It's easier to just have a fixed rule that the category name matches the article name. As a plus it avoids discussions like this for every case.
Good Ol’factory(talk) 06:00, 31 January 2021 (UTC)reply
William Allen Simpson C2D isn't just the line "Consistency with main article's name", it also contains exceptions like "This applies only if the related page's current name (and by extension, the proposed name for the category) is: unambiguous (so it generally does not apply to proposals to remove a disambiguator from the category name, even when the main article is the primary topic of its name, i.e. it does not contain a disambiguator)." So this solid criteria explicitly says that it doesn't apply to this case.
ArmbrustTheHomunculus 11:36, 1 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Proof by assertion. Just because you repeatedly say it, doesn't make it true. As already has been noted by many in this discussion, nobody (other than yourself) is likely to mistake the original large city for small towns elsewhere in the world. That's why
Sunderland is the
WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. William Allen Simpson (
talk) 12:20, 1 February 2021 (UTC)reply
The fact that there is a primary topic for this, doesn’t mean that it’s unambiguous.
ArmbrustTheHomunculus 20:55, 1 February 2021 (UTC)reply
But neither is "London" or "Paris" unamiguous. However, in these cases we recognize that confusion is unlikely when one of the cities is the primary topic. So why is this any different? The only answer I can see is that Sunderland is not as well known. But says who? If only we had a mechanism for determining such things. Oh right, we do —
WP:PRIMARYTOPIC.
Good Ol’factory(talk) 00:13, 2 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Duplicate !vote — see 19:36, 10 December 2020 — currently 8 rename, 4 keep, 1 undecided; after 8+ weeks, and my previous close at 6:3:1. Even the fence sitter says "it probably makes sense." William Allen Simpson (
talk) 05:11, 30 January 2021 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Ancient Romans by gens
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: This new creation duplicates a long-standing category. Categories for Roman gentes (families) mostly contain biographical articles, and it would seem weird to have a category for the gens and a different one for its members. N.B. gens and gentes is the same word in singular and plural form, both in English and in Latin.
Place Clichy (
talk) 17:12, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
@
Place Clichy: I was already aware of all this. I had created this as a sort of test (to see how it looked like) because I had my problems with the gens pages and gens categories being both grouped under
Category:Roman gentes. I was accordingly planning to broach the subject on the wikiproject one of these days, but hadn't done so yet. Had the idea garnered no support, I was planning to revert it on my own, but it seems you came out ahead. I should have checked with the community immediately, but if you could give me (say) a week, I'd be grateful.
Avilich (
talk) 18:12, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Further comment. Having a container category for gentes is just as reasonable as having containers for
city,
class,
death, and
occupation.
Category:Roman gentes is not itself a container, and thus by definition not a duplicate of
Category:Ancient Romans by gens. It was my intention that all categories of gentes be moved to the container (a job currently unfinished) because
Category:Roman gentes is too large and difficult to navigate.
Avilich (
talk) 00:27, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep. There's a distinct difference between articles about a gens and categories for its members who have their own articles. For instance, "Fabia gens" lists pretty much all the Fabii who occur in historical and literary writing, while "Category:Fabii" includes only articles about individual Fabii or other topics related to the gens (including "Fabia gens"). But both of these are listed in "Category:Roman gentes"—"Fabii" as a subcategory. The category created earlier today, and immediately nominated for merger, is intended as a container category for categories such as "Fabii, Calpurnii, Valerii", which will cut the size of the category "Roman gentes" nearly in half. It's going to have hundreds of categories as is—it doesn't need to have hundreds of subcategories on the main page as well, nearly all of them corresponding with the categories that follow. The container category seems like a good housekeeping measure, and it's being discussed at CGR already.
P Aculeius (
talk) 04:02, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment — We created categories and container categories for just such as these. There's no technical reason to limit the number of sub-categories, any more than limiting the number of articles. We actually want well populated categories. So the family name should be the main article (category sort <blank>) in the subcategory containing the individuals, offices, and groups. This is just a mess. William Allen Simpson (
talk) 13:56, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
That's the point: they're not in a subcategory. They're in the subcategories area of the main category. Hundreds of them. All of them with names similar to the pages that belong in the category. There's no worry about the category "Roman gentes" not being well-populated: it already contains hundreds of pages. It doesn't need hundreds of apparently duplicative subcategories on the main page as well. Placing all of those in a subcategory designed specifically for them is simple housekeeping. And nobody is going to have trouble moving from one category to the other because of it: they all still link to each other. They're just better-organized.
P Aculeius (
talk) 14:21, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Circular and massive cross links are not "better-organized". They are harder to maintain. They are harder to traverse. We need a simpler organization. I'd prefer that Roman gentes had the subcategories, and the family names be moved to the subcategories themselves instead of populating Roman gentes. All that would remain would be the article(s) describing the meaning of Roman gentes. Adding a subcategory to contain the subcategories is completely unnecessary. We only do that for multiple techniques of organization (by date, by country). That's not appropriate here. William Allen Simpson (
talk) 15:22, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
This is a 'multiple technique of organization': by person on one hand and by family ('gens') on the other – just like there are categories for offices and officeholders both. There's no circular linking here.
Avilich (
talk) 15:34, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Further, all gens categories (Julii, Pontii, etc.) would have had to be added to
Category:Ancient Romans at some point anyway. This container category is just an extra generation.
Avilich (
talk) 16:26, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep:This category will streamline things a bit, as Avilich and Aculeius have said. Also, it's a work in progress, so let's give it some more time.
HalfdanRagnarsson (
talk) 12:41, 8 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep Seems to be a reasonable parent category.
Dimadick (
talk) 17:57, 10 January 2021 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Burials by country
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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The result of the discussion was:do not convert.
Good Ol’factory(talk) 04:00, 14 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Strong oppose. Well-established tree with a considerable number of subcategories. And a burial location is defining feature, both for the person buried (in that it often indicates the place with which they were most connected), and for the cemetery. In fact we have in the past used these categories as indications of whether a particular cemetery is or is not notable. As such they are useful to Wikipedia editors as well as to Wikipedia readers.
Grutness...wha? 15:22, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose I have some broad concerns with the burial categories, but removing parent categories would not be helpful. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 22:58, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
oppose . There is no valid reason to delete this category, a navigation aid to readers to find the underlying articles.
Hmains (
talk) 01:48, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose if this were deleted all the underlying categories would not have the obvious navigational aid of 'by country' and a list with nothing but redirects to categories is not a good idea.
Carlossuarez46 (
talk) 21:45, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep -- This is a container, and a useful navigation aid. The one article should be moved to the appropriate subcategory.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 17:17, 10 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Strong oppose Burial location is a defining feature.
Dimadick (
talk) 18:04, 10 January 2021 (UTC)reply
support the location someone is buried at is not at all defining to their life or notability.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 14:02, 11 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Republic of Venice encyclopedists
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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There were several similar in Venice which I am afraid I emptied without noticing there was only one article.
Rathfelder (
talk) 10:21, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Merge per nom. Unlikely to receive expansion.
Dimadick (
talk) 18:05, 10 January 2021 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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European Parliament constituencies in the United Kingdom
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: now that all
European Parliament constituencies in the United Kingdom are former constituencies, I suggest using dates to separate between the systems used between 1979 and 1999 (which were individual constituencies in all of Great Britain) and after that (9 regional constituencies in England and one each for Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales). At present the categories named for former constituencies contain the first set only, which needs to be fixed.
Place Clichy (
talk) 11:28, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Rename per nom. "Former" no longer distinguishes the two sets, so dates are need. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 00:59, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Google Arts & Culture works by unknown artists
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale:Rename to plural. Merge others which were set up by a now-banned editor; these category names were presumbably originally generated by a template, but are now separately entered and therefore easily editable as normal. –
FayenaticLondon 11:30, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete/Rename if Kept I don't know if an unknown author aids navigation under "works by artist" categories since it's not grouping by an artist and it seems like
WP:OCMISC. If kept, by all means rename. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 17:52, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
No objection to creating such a parent category to keep these articles in the tree. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 02:13, 9 January 2021 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Google Arts & Culture works by Kempf
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Nominator's rationale: Each of these contains only one file. The Google Arts pages on the paintings (Kempf
[1], Frantz
[2], see also
https://collection.cooperhewitt.org/objects/18570129/ ) have no further info, so it appears that only the artist's surname is known. –
FayenaticLondon 11:28, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete — this is confusing, there is also a proposed rename to plural. So the poor closer would have to read all these nonminations together. This doesn't aid navigation, and there's not enough information to evaluate. William Allen Simpson (
talk) 14:08, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
It is not really confusing, the proposal to rename the target category is completely independent from this proposal and the discussions can be closed separately.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 08:22, 8 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Google Arts & Culture works by Unknown MAKER - Bardi people
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Merge per nom. I also agree with RD's comment about the target category but the latter is not nominated now.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 21:17, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete — this is confusing, there is also a proposed rename to plural. So the poor closer would have to read all these nonminations together. This doesn't aid navigation, and there's not enough information to evaluate. William Allen Simpson (
talk) 14:09, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
It is not really confusing, the proposal to rename the target category is completely independent from this proposal and the discussions can be closed separately.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 08:22, 8 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Parliamentary private secretaries
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I'm sorry but I didn't know who I could ask or where else to turn. Please can someone change these categories and add the word "the" to all of these categories so that it reads "to the" as at the moment it is grammatically correct:
Comment -- I am not sure that these categories should exist. A PPS is an appointment under a particular minister, not a departmental appointment. It is personal to the minister and would not be inherited by his successor, after a reshuffle. Does any one know better?
Peterkingiron (
talk) 17:54, 6 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Weak delete, this seems to be a minor political office, hardly defining.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 18:45, 6 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Comment - it should be 'Parliamentary Private Secretaries' in each case, subcats of
Category:Parliamentary Private Secretaries. The article
David Duguid (politician) does not mention Department for International Trade, so there is indeed a suspicion that Parliamentary Private Secretary to Department for International Trade is not a big deal.
Oculi (
talk) 22:40, 6 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Support The nom is correct about the grammar. These are unpaid "pre-ministerial" positions, the first step on the ladder for MPs. Some articles don't mention them, but they should. They are defining; a minor position is defining for a minor career. This is the highest position many MPs reach.
Johnbod (
talk) 03:22, 7 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Weak Delete/Speedy Rename if Kept Clicking through these I'm not sure they are defining. Certainly rename per
WP:C2A if kept. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 10:28, 7 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Weak delete, this seems to be a minor political office, hardly defining. --
Just N. (
talk) 15:48, 11 December 2020 (UTC)reply
These posts are indeed defining, but not in a departmental way. PPSs are attached to particular ministers who appoint them. If the minister changes departments so do they, usually. And they rarely don anything significant in the department.
Rathfelder (
talk) 18:59, 11 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Consensus that they are misnamed, no consensus on new name, or whether they should be deleted entirely. There are many related names in
Category:Parliamentary Private Secretaries.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
William Allen Simpson (
talk) 10:41, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment — on relist, found most of them are missing the nomination:
Delete. PPS is not a government or cabinet position.
Main article describes this position as an unpaid assistant, a bag carrier, a position to begin your progress with. Admittedly, people who held these offices also held a number of other positions before or after (such as MP or government minister) that would be more defining. Adding categories with such long names for a position so minor in a career adds much category clutter for little value. This is worth a mention in article, not a category. Clearly fails
WP:CATDEF.
Place Clichy (
talk) 09:39, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete for reasons in my comment above. No objection to merging to the general PPS category, but suspect that would be too big to be useful. Being a PPS is a sort of apprenticeship that can be followed by becoming a minster. AS stated, I think they are personal to the individual minister, not to the department where he is a minister.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 17:25, 10 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:TransLink (South East Queensland) templates
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Category:Tehreek-e-Labbaik Pakistan
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Oppose/reverse merge in order to keep the category name aligned with the article.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 06:08, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Reverse merge — most of the articles in the latter use the "-e-" form, so let's keep them with the main article. William Allen Simpson (
talk) 14:13, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Speedy Reverse Merge based on
WP:C2A, typographic and spelling fixes. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 14:50, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Prehistoric animals of China
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Nominator's rationale:Upmerge Having country-level categories of this sort is an anachronism, since China and Tibet are creations of historical, not physical, geography; all the other cats correspond to non-historical geographic locations.
UnitedStatesian (
talk) 19:51, 4 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose merger of "China into "Asia because paleontology and geology still have a lot of discussion and study about Chinese-specific palaeo-localities ("Dzungar basin," "Maotianshan Shales," etc).
Actually, we have
Category:Fossils of Canada which (as it consists almost entirely of articles about species/genera rather than actual fossil specimens) is Prehistoric animals of Canada in all but name. DexDor(talk) 07:48, 7 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Support merger of "Tibet into "China, though, as I don't see it a policy or tradition to have separate categories for different provinces.--
Mr Fink (
talk) 00:18, 5 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Manually merge both, as an unrelated intersection. Insofar there is discussion, it surely is not about the modern nationality of these animals. It should be merged manually because I expect that most articles are already in some other subcategory of
Category:Prehistoric animals of Asia.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 08:05, 5 December 2020 (UTC)reply
CommentOppose (at the moment) as the proposed merge would remove the articles from e.g.
Category:Extinct animals of China and the nom does not provide a reason for that. DexDor(talk) 08:15, 5 December 2020 (UTC)reply
The reason is that the finding of a fossil in China does not tell much about the animal's spread over the world. For example
Cervocerus fossils were found in China and Moldova, so finding places can be very random.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 09:06, 5 December 2020 (UTC)reply
So should the rule be to not categorize prehistoric plants/animals below continent level or to not categorize them geographically at all? Note: There's e.g
Category:Prehistoric animals of Madagascar. There may be cases (e.g. re India) where categorizing geographically is complicated. DexDor(talk) 11:49, 5 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Good question. It may be better not to categorize them geographically at all.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 23:13, 5 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Where I am headed is avoiding the anachronistic political categorizations. So
Madagascar (which is geographical, not just political),
Indian subcontinent,
Australia (continent), plus all the other continents are fine, just not the categorizations that are modern countries. But what do you think?
UnitedStatesian (
talk) 01:28, 6 December 2020 (UTC)reply
It does not resolve the fundamental problem that finding places of fossils are just random. Besides you run into problems with multiple finding places, how would you geographically categorize a species with finding places of fossils in India, Uzbekistan and Ukraine?
Marcocapelle (
talk) 05:24, 6 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Like
this?! We've been moving away from categorizing current species by countries etc and for prehistoric species categorization by country makes even less sense. DexDor(talk) 09:34, 6 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose The Tibet category could presumably by renamed to cover the
Tibetan Plateau, whose definition does not depend on political borders.
Dimadick (
talk) 22:34, 6 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Categorizing by regions like that can introduce other problems - they often overlap, have gaps, don't have clear boundaries, don't mesh well with the rest of the category structure ... DexDor(talk) 07:53, 7 December 2020 (UTC)reply
The nom's argument that these categories should be deleted as "anachronistic political categorizations" is wrong. The category is for articles about animals that lived in the part of the world that we now call China (or, if you prefer, animals whose remains were found in China). Note: There are many other categories (e.g.
Category:Cretaceous China) that could also be accused of being anachronistic. Marcocapelle's argument against categorizing prehistoric animals by small areas is more relevant. Thus, merge Tibet into China, but keep China for the moment. In the longer term (after other improvements to categorization in this area) an upmerge to East Asia or Asia might be considered. DexDor(talk) 22:25, 12 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Merge the Tibet catagory to the China one but we do not have any category on the other providences or states of other countries but at the same time we have categories on other countries
🌸 1.Ayana 🌸 (
talk) 17:32, 29 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
William Allen Simpson (
talk) 10:18, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Manually Merge as nominated after another 2 weeks with no discussion (matching
Category:Prehistoric arthropods of Asia,
Category:Prehistoric echinoderms of Asia, etc.); "by country or province" is an outlier compared to everything else in the
Category:Prehistoric animals by continent tree. Everybody seems to agree that Tibet should be merged somewhere. The Tibet category is small, but then Tibet is not as well researched. There's no connection of prehistoric to China, and nothing whatsoever with modern PRC that sprawls over topological features. But the techtonic plates are fairly well understood. Thus, Asia is the better result, as a well-populated category in a well-defined tree
WP:C2C. Let's update the guidelines to expedite future decisions. William Allen Simpson (
talk) 17:27, 18 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:SCIRA commodores
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The result of the discussion was:delete as non-defining; noting that there is now a full list in the article that has been created – although whether that list is valid encyclopaedic content is another question. –
FayenaticLondon 22:43, 31 January 2021 (UTC)reply
I'm fine with that, though there is an extensive categorization scheme of people who are heads of international sporting bodies: see subcategories of
Category:Sports executives and administrators. Perhaps deletion is okay for this one because we don't have an article about the sporting body.
Good Ol’factory(talk) 01:32, 4 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Comment -- The expansion is too much of a mouthful: the expansion would be better given in a headnote.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 17:43, 6 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Lean Toward Delete/Neutral on Name This doesn't seem defining in the articles and there's not a main article, although maybe there's a possibility of improvements. No opinion on name since there's no main article to match it to. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 00:31, 10 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: In the long month, there is now a matching main article.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
William Allen Simpson (
talk) 10:07, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
I maintain the comment I made above, suggesting Keep, but having the expansion in a headnote. The reverse should apply to the article as SCIRA is obscure, except to cognoscenti.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 17:30, 10 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete — I've checked a few articles, but none of them mentions "commodore". Even a winner of the world race. Beggars belief that this was defining part of their lives. Beyond cognoscenti, this required
personal research, as it is not mentioned by any
WP:RS. Even the new main article has only a list taken from a handbook published by the organization. Leave it in the list. William Allen Simpson (
talk) 16:38, 18 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Chinese contemporary classical opera singers
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Nominator's rationale: These singers don't just sing 20th-century Chinese-libretto operas. Reveal the real feature without any potential ambiguity.
Seanetienne (
talk) 15:52, 2 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Rename per nom. We need to think broadly about the best way to classify people. In the case of singers that means not classifying them by every possible small genre they could sing, but looking at the large grouping in which they participate and making categories that are both large enough for navigation and at least for some people keep down the number of categories we put them in. Opera singers is a fine enough categorization, especially considering we normally break that up further by which specific voice range they sing in. We should not be sub-dividing opera singers by the specific type of opera they engage in.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 20:30, 10 December 2020 (UTC)reply
First thing to bear in mind: Chinese opera is not opera, but the terminology for a form of musical theatre of Chinese tradition. "Chinese opera singers" (former title of this category) contained an ambiguity that led to a mix of "opera singers of Chinese nationalty" (what this category is about) and "performers of Chinese opera" (successfully separated into Category:Actors of Chinese opera). "Western-style opera singers" bears little sense, since opera (musical composition form) is western by essence, and it's probably natural instinct to associate "opera singers" with the European bel canto singing technique. "adj. +opera" is an unnecessary attempt to avoid confusion, because the two belong to largely separate category trees and wouldn't meet each other under natural circumstances, so no worries. Even if so, the category already contains a note to clarify. Plus, there is precedent of renaming "Georgian opera singers" to "Opera singers from Georgia (country)" to avoid ambiguity (the country or a US state).
Seanetienne (
talk) 17:11, 11 December 2020 (UTC) edited
Seanetienne (
talk) 10:22, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Consensus to rename, not enough discussion to determine target
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
William Allen Simpson (
talk) 09:54, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
That's a reminder of the big context behind the whole argument. Anyway, one has to know that performers of any variety of Chinese opera are actors, not singers, therefore "opera singers" is enough, by intuition, to encapsulate the sense of "singers performing certain type of musical composition which is of European roots".
Seanetienne (
talk) 13:27, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Looking back, I feel the need to apologize to
User:Marcocapelle for being quite aggressive during the argument. It may look like me in an immature attempt to defend the so-called "integrity of the definition".
Seanetienne (
talk) 17:04, 14 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Thank you, but I have never experienced it as aggressive. It has been a very reasonable discussion.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 19:40, 14 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:The Downlink
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Nominator's rationale: Looking for better solutions for a name as this category should be identified as being part of a WikiProject within its name. StarcheerspeaksnewslostwarsTalk to me 01:59, 2 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Change: I think the best way to rename it would be
Category:The Downlink WikiProject since the
WP:CATNAME guideline states that "WikiProject" should be in the title. However it seems unnecessary to name it with Spaceflight since it is well labeled as Spaceflight already on the category page and would not add anything meaningful other than a longer category name since all pages in the category are subpages of WikiProject Spaceflight.
Terasail[✉] 15:42, 2 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Alt Rename Perfer Terasail's proposal but will support any rename with "WikiProject" added.
RevelationDirect (
talk) 02:44, 4 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
William Allen Simpson (
talk) 09:43, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Rename as nominated per William Allen Simpson.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 21:26, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Dadasaheb Phalke International Film Festival Awards South
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The result of the discussion was:delete as empty (as a result of the AFD).
Good Ol’factory(talk) 03:45, 14 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: Category creator recently created an article on
Dadasaheb Phalke International Film Festival Awards South as well as two content forks. This appears to be a non-notable festival that doles out awards like any other Indian award mill, and the article creator has subsequently added this award to a score of articles, and now appears to be using category space to create sprawl.
Cyphoidbomb (
talk) 02:22, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Related Nom There is an AFD nomination for the main article located
right here. You input (pro/con/other) is always welcome. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 17:32, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Honorary citizens of Baikonur
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Baikonur or "Star City" was the center of the Soviet space program (and now the Russian space program) and the city gave out a the
Honorary Citizen of Baikonur award to Soviet cosmonauts (and now Russian cosmonauts). These biography articles are already well grouped under
Category:Soviet cosmonauts (and
Category:Russian cosmonauts). The creator of the category added an External Link to all the articles (see
this edit history) but they otherwise make no mention of the award.
These municipal "honory citizen" awards are too common to be defining which is why
Valeri Kubasov's article lists 11 of them (not counting this one). I copied the current category contents
right here so no work is lost if anyone wants to find reliable sources to establish notability to create a main article. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 00:10, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete this is a clear over categorization by award.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 14:12, 11 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Heroes of Kosovo
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was:merge, except not the Invercargill one.
Good Ol’factory(talk) 04:07, 14 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: merge per
WP:SMALLCAT, just one, two or three articles in each of these categories and they are not part of a large overall accepted sub-categorization scheme.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 21:40, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Merge for Now While these places would have had more than five mayors, most would be non-notable. No objection to recreating any if they exceed expectations and reaches 5+ articles. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 22:54, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
keep Invercargill category which is well populated (20 articles!); merge others with no prejudice against re-creation per RevelationDirect.
Grutness...wha? 01:50, 7 January 2021 (UTC) arereply
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Category:People from Sunderland, Tyne and Wear
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The result of the discussion was:rename. –
FayenaticLondon 10:55, 8 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Odd, given one of the comments was Support Renames to match title of parent article and reduce ambiguity. --
Necrothesp (
talk) 16:40, 18 November 2020 (UTC)reply
Rename per nom. Seems very unlikely that any other Sunderland would vie with this one for primary topic.
Grutness...wha? 14:38, 28 November 2020 (UTC)reply
Birmingham and Plymouth names are mistakes in the article space and should be renamed as they are not
WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. That's not the case here, as
Sunderland is the primary topic (as is Carlisle). -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 21:12, 28 November 2020 (UTC)reply
Keep -- AS with Birmingham, sometimes a category needs disambiguation when the article does not: people do not always check before adding a category that they have chosen an appropriate one.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 17:17, 28 November 2020 (UTC)reply
Rename This category seems unlikely to be confusing as it's usually clear if someone is from England or Vermont and as a firm rejection of
Birmingham/
Category:Birmingham, West Midlands as a precedent. Being more concerned about confusion in Hotcat versus going to the wrong article values avoiding wasting a editor's time over avoiding wasting an reader's time which isn't a sound basis for an encyclopedia. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 21:07, 28 November 2020 (UTC)reply
Rename. Clear primary topic and matches article title. These arguments that names that aren't ambiguous in article titles but can be ambiguous in categories have always been ludicrous. If one is the primary topic then the other one is too. --
Necrothesp (
talk) 12:15, 2 December 2020 (UTC)reply
I don't think its ludicrous, it is easy to add incorrect pages with hotcat etc without having any idea what the category's scope is but in this case that's not very likely given the size of this place compared to others and USPLACE. Crouch, Swale (
talk) 10:13, 9 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose we need to be unambiguous in category names more than in article ones.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 19:36, 10 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Ymblanter (
talk) 06:25, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment. The discussion was originally closed as '''Rename'''. Consistent with [[WP:C2C]] '''and''' [[WP:C2D]], repudiation of mistakes. <small>[[Wikipedia:NACD|(non-admin closure)]]</small> [[User:William Allen Simpson|William Allen Simpson]] ([[User talk:William Allen Simpson|talk]]) 12:39, 30 December 2020 (UTC). I unlclose it because I believe it is not amenable to NAC--
Ymblanter (
talk) 20:51, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
So it should be described here as a re-listing and templated as such, no?
Grutness...wha? 01:56, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment I just accidentally re-voted (and then deleted that). @
Ymblanter: please template this. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 03:20, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment — this is not a proper re-list. This was never taken to
Wikipedia:Deletion review. For !vote counters, it was 6:3:1. In closing this complex discussion that had languished for more than a month, I've read everything, including the speedy nomination, and the cited prior nominations, and the history log of the main article. William Allen Simpson (
talk) 11:28, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
No admin agreed to implement the close, and we can not keep the discussion closed and the categories not acted on.--
Ymblanter (
talk) 11:31, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
You refused to implement the close. Did any other adminstrators refuse? There's no record of it. This is a violation of the
Wikipedia:Deletion process, that I helped write nearly 15 years ago, and specifically allows non-administrative closes. You also failed to properly format the relisting, and failed to notify the closer. Why cannot administrators follow the rules? William Allen Simpson (
talk) 11:46, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Question@
Ymblanter: How is no admin being willing to enact the decision helped by relisting? Won't we be in the same boat a week from now? -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 15:26, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
CFD nominations must be closed by admins, at least if the result is move, because one of the conditions of NACs is that discussions requiring administrative intervention are not eligible. Because of the backlogs, some non-admins sometimes close CFD discussions, and ask admins to enact the close at
Wikipedia talk:Categories for discussion/Working (the page itself is fully protected, and non-admins can not edit it). Usually we enact the closes. However, if I enact such a close I take the responsibility for the close, and I am only willing to do it if I, well, not necessarily agree with it, but at least consider it valid (another NAC requirement is that the discussion must be non-contentious). In this case, I was not prepared to take the responsibility and refused to enact the close. This is perfectly according to the policies, because I am not in any way required to enact it. No other admin showed an interest, and I had to unclose. The whole nomination page for 27 November was already done, and it was not an option to unclose the discussion and leave it at that page. I expect that in a week, an admin will close the discussion (in fact, any admin can do it any moment now, since the discussion is older than seven days).--
Ymblanter (
talk) 15:37, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Back when I'd made CfD and TfD as Discussion (instead of Deletion) many years ago, we didn't address AfD as that was already well established. I've always treated them the same. Requested moves are treated the same as deletion, and renamed categories are similar to moves. Could update the text:
For appealing the deletion of a page or outcome of a deletion discussion that appears to be against community consensus, if the request is outside of the scope of requests for undeletion, and after discussing with the deleting administrator or closer respectively.
For appealing the closure of a requested move, including one that resulted in a deletion or merger, if it appears to be against consensus or proper closing procedure, and after discussing with the closer.
Move review not deletion review since this CFD clearly has nothing to do with inclusion and I agree this shouldn't have been re-opened unilaterally even though the citation of C2D in close was incorrect (C2C yes per
Category:Sunderland but not C2D since Sunderland is ambiguous). Crouch, Swale (
talk) 19:35, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
As noted in the original discussion:
WP:C2DConsistency with main article's name. Better solid criteria than endless arguing. (I had you down as the only undecided. Are you decided now?) William Allen Simpson (
talk) 22:51, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
C2D does not generally apply if the article's name is ambiguous even when the main article is the primary topic of its name, i.e. it does not contain a disambiguator). Crouch, Swale (
talk) 08:16, 8 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Clarification@
MER-C,
Fayenatic london, and
Good Olfactory: In the relisting above, User:Ymblanter indicated there had been broad admin concern about implementing the original close of the nomination but I was having trouble finding that conversation
in this search. Can you provide any background so we can (if appropriate) reconsider our !votes? -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 15:35, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
I do not think I said there was a "broad admin concern", it is just nobody has enacted the close for a week.--
Ymblanter (
talk) 15:39, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
What we're supposed to do is take the rogue administrator to the administrator incidents to be reviewed by the Bureaucrats and Steward (assuming that process is still around). But we're short on CfD participants. Years ago we had fewer daily nominations with more participants and more closers. So we need him to actually do the work. We just need to rein in some administrators who have gotten a bit self-important. He's actually written:
I am not going to implement this close (and I believe the close of 5 December is not good, and definitely not in NAC domain), as well as any future closes by this user. I hope another administrator can look at them.--Ymblanter (talk) 11:50, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
Well, may be you should first learn which processes are still around, and then start complaining about my breach of non-existing policies.--
Ymblanter (
talk) 15:51, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
You have the shoe on the wrong foot. Justifying is a requirement for you:
Administrators should not revert a closure based solely on the fact that the original closer was not an administrator, based on consensus following
this request for comment. Per
WP:ADMINACCT, administrators are expected to promptly and civilly justify their decision to revert based on an assessment of the local
consensus and application of Wikipedia
policy and guidelines.
This is not what I did. I believe that your close does not reflect consensus. I made it very clear from the beginning. May I please remind you again that I am not under obligation to implement your close, and any other administrator can do it any moment.--
Ymblanter (
talk) 16:13, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
As an aside, I will say that overall participating in CFD has declined (I attribute that to not displaying cats on mobile view) and I appreciate admins who are volunteering their time. I don't think that get's us to agreement on this item but I want to make that general statement. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 16:35, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
As another aside, non-admin closures are supposed to reduce the burden for admins. By closing a discussion but not being able to implement the outcome, the burden for admins is hardly reduced. That is sort of pointless, really.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 17:52, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
It greatly reduces the effort, as they aren't required to think, just run the bot (so that we don't have to do them by hand). We don't want everybody to be able to run the bot; that's why the Working page is protected. (Heck, I used to run my own Botryoidal, but haven't re-qualified it for years, as that computer is long gone.) As closers are experienced and independent, there shouldn't be any second-guessing involved. Once you have them second-guessing every closure, that way lies madness. William Allen Simpson (
talk) 22:40, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Actually, I have done this above, but I can try again. The deletion policy says
Non-administrators should limit their closes to outcomes they have the technical ability to implement; for example, non-admins should not close a discussion as delete, because only admins can delete pages.
This is because administrators are not expected to blindly implement closes, but they are responsible for all the administrative actions they perform (for the sake of the argument, and not trying to relate it to the current discussion - imagine somebody summarizes an obscure discussion and decides we need to delete the main page - you do not expect me to implement this). I am willing (but have no obligation) to implement fully uncontroversial decisions (which for CFD typically means full consensus, no dissenters possibly except for the nominator). Everything else is easier for me to close from scratch than to see whether I can subscribe to the arguments of the closer.--
Ymblanter (
talk) 08:23, 8 January 2021 (UTC)reply
That's not policy. That's an essay. We have a
Working section for non-administrative closures, where an administrator is expected to run the bot. If the administrator wants to challenge the closure, the administrator is expected to follow the review rules just like everybody else. Moreover, that's not the meaning of
WP:CONSENSUSpolicy. Wikipedia doesn't need one of the most senior
Internauts and experienced
Wikipedians in the world to close unanimous decisions. I'm only interested in those that require thought, and usually where I'll learn something interesting. William Allen Simpson (
talk) 09:57, 8 January 2021 (UTC)reply
What I cited is exactlyWikipedia:Deletion process which is not an essay, it is a guideline. If you want to close discussions not eligible for NACs, and if you are so experienced, why do not you get an admin flag via RfA first? There is not single Wikipedia policy which would put me under obligation to enact your closes I disagree with.
WT:CFDW#NACs is not a policy.--
Ymblanter (
talk) 10:14, 8 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Adding on that, we can't expect any editor to blindly follow up on another editor's request, regardless of the nature of the request. You always remain responsible for your own actions. That applies just as well (or even more) to administrators.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 13:11, 8 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep - C2C and C2D do not apply anyway as there is ambiguity. Arguments that category names should follow ambiguous article names have always been risible.
Oculi (
talk) 18:17, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
C2D also says that it doesn't apply if the title is ambiguous, which is clearly the case here.
ArmbrustTheHomunculus 10:13, 13 January 2021 (UTC)reply
I still say keep -- This is (I think) not the only place called Sunderland. Without the disambiguator, it is likely to collect articles on other places (see
Sunderland (disambiguation)).
Peterkingiron (
talk) Peterkingiron (UTC)
Duplicate !vote — see 17:17, 28 November 2020 — still 7 rename, 4 keep, 1 undecided; after 6 weeks, and my previous close at 6:3:1. Even the fence sitter says "it probably makes sense." William Allen Simpson (
talk) 13:06, 14 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Rename. With 175,000 inhabitants, this Sunderland is by far the largest and the most notable one, way above
Sunderland, Massachusetts at 3,700, all other places called Sunderland having less than 1,000 inhabitants. The confusion is unlikely.
Place Clichy (
talk) 17:07, 15 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep categories need to be better disambiguated than articles.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 13:24, 25 January 2021 (UTC)reply
To avoid miscategorisation of unrelated articles. While being ambiguous isn't a problem in the article space, it would need constant maintenance in the category namespace.
ArmbrustTheHomunculus 14:16, 29 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Category:People from Paris and
Category:People from London don't seem to have this problem, even though there are some fairly well-populated places (which aren't the capitals of France and the UK) that use those names. As far as I have been able to tell, mis-categorization by confusion is a pretty rare phenomenon when we're dealing with a clear primary topic.
Good Ol’factory(talk) 04:58, 30 January 2021 (UTC)reply
I don't think Sunderland is on the same level of recognition as Paris or London.
ArmbrustTheHomunculus 19:41, 30 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Once we admit that some "needed" disambiguations are not actually needed in category space, we are dealing with an entirely subjective sense of "how big is big enough?" or "how known is well-known enough?" Where do we draw the line? It's easier to just have a fixed rule that the category name matches the article name. As a plus it avoids discussions like this for every case.
Good Ol’factory(talk) 06:00, 31 January 2021 (UTC)reply
William Allen Simpson C2D isn't just the line "Consistency with main article's name", it also contains exceptions like "This applies only if the related page's current name (and by extension, the proposed name for the category) is: unambiguous (so it generally does not apply to proposals to remove a disambiguator from the category name, even when the main article is the primary topic of its name, i.e. it does not contain a disambiguator)." So this solid criteria explicitly says that it doesn't apply to this case.
ArmbrustTheHomunculus 11:36, 1 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Proof by assertion. Just because you repeatedly say it, doesn't make it true. As already has been noted by many in this discussion, nobody (other than yourself) is likely to mistake the original large city for small towns elsewhere in the world. That's why
Sunderland is the
WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. William Allen Simpson (
talk) 12:20, 1 February 2021 (UTC)reply
The fact that there is a primary topic for this, doesn’t mean that it’s unambiguous.
ArmbrustTheHomunculus 20:55, 1 February 2021 (UTC)reply
But neither is "London" or "Paris" unamiguous. However, in these cases we recognize that confusion is unlikely when one of the cities is the primary topic. So why is this any different? The only answer I can see is that Sunderland is not as well known. But says who? If only we had a mechanism for determining such things. Oh right, we do —
WP:PRIMARYTOPIC.
Good Ol’factory(talk) 00:13, 2 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Duplicate !vote — see 19:36, 10 December 2020 — currently 8 rename, 4 keep, 1 undecided; after 8+ weeks, and my previous close at 6:3:1. Even the fence sitter says "it probably makes sense." William Allen Simpson (
talk) 05:11, 30 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Ancient Romans by gens
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Nominator's rationale: This new creation duplicates a long-standing category. Categories for Roman gentes (families) mostly contain biographical articles, and it would seem weird to have a category for the gens and a different one for its members. N.B. gens and gentes is the same word in singular and plural form, both in English and in Latin.
Place Clichy (
talk) 17:12, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
@
Place Clichy: I was already aware of all this. I had created this as a sort of test (to see how it looked like) because I had my problems with the gens pages and gens categories being both grouped under
Category:Roman gentes. I was accordingly planning to broach the subject on the wikiproject one of these days, but hadn't done so yet. Had the idea garnered no support, I was planning to revert it on my own, but it seems you came out ahead. I should have checked with the community immediately, but if you could give me (say) a week, I'd be grateful.
Avilich (
talk) 18:12, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Further comment. Having a container category for gentes is just as reasonable as having containers for
city,
class,
death, and
occupation.
Category:Roman gentes is not itself a container, and thus by definition not a duplicate of
Category:Ancient Romans by gens. It was my intention that all categories of gentes be moved to the container (a job currently unfinished) because
Category:Roman gentes is too large and difficult to navigate.
Avilich (
talk) 00:27, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep. There's a distinct difference between articles about a gens and categories for its members who have their own articles. For instance, "Fabia gens" lists pretty much all the Fabii who occur in historical and literary writing, while "Category:Fabii" includes only articles about individual Fabii or other topics related to the gens (including "Fabia gens"). But both of these are listed in "Category:Roman gentes"—"Fabii" as a subcategory. The category created earlier today, and immediately nominated for merger, is intended as a container category for categories such as "Fabii, Calpurnii, Valerii", which will cut the size of the category "Roman gentes" nearly in half. It's going to have hundreds of categories as is—it doesn't need to have hundreds of subcategories on the main page as well, nearly all of them corresponding with the categories that follow. The container category seems like a good housekeeping measure, and it's being discussed at CGR already.
P Aculeius (
talk) 04:02, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment — We created categories and container categories for just such as these. There's no technical reason to limit the number of sub-categories, any more than limiting the number of articles. We actually want well populated categories. So the family name should be the main article (category sort <blank>) in the subcategory containing the individuals, offices, and groups. This is just a mess. William Allen Simpson (
talk) 13:56, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
That's the point: they're not in a subcategory. They're in the subcategories area of the main category. Hundreds of them. All of them with names similar to the pages that belong in the category. There's no worry about the category "Roman gentes" not being well-populated: it already contains hundreds of pages. It doesn't need hundreds of apparently duplicative subcategories on the main page as well. Placing all of those in a subcategory designed specifically for them is simple housekeeping. And nobody is going to have trouble moving from one category to the other because of it: they all still link to each other. They're just better-organized.
P Aculeius (
talk) 14:21, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Circular and massive cross links are not "better-organized". They are harder to maintain. They are harder to traverse. We need a simpler organization. I'd prefer that Roman gentes had the subcategories, and the family names be moved to the subcategories themselves instead of populating Roman gentes. All that would remain would be the article(s) describing the meaning of Roman gentes. Adding a subcategory to contain the subcategories is completely unnecessary. We only do that for multiple techniques of organization (by date, by country). That's not appropriate here. William Allen Simpson (
talk) 15:22, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
This is a 'multiple technique of organization': by person on one hand and by family ('gens') on the other – just like there are categories for offices and officeholders both. There's no circular linking here.
Avilich (
talk) 15:34, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Further, all gens categories (Julii, Pontii, etc.) would have had to be added to
Category:Ancient Romans at some point anyway. This container category is just an extra generation.
Avilich (
talk) 16:26, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep:This category will streamline things a bit, as Avilich and Aculeius have said. Also, it's a work in progress, so let's give it some more time.
HalfdanRagnarsson (
talk) 12:41, 8 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep Seems to be a reasonable parent category.
Dimadick (
talk) 17:57, 10 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Burials by country
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was:do not convert.
Good Ol’factory(talk) 04:00, 14 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Strong oppose. Well-established tree with a considerable number of subcategories. And a burial location is defining feature, both for the person buried (in that it often indicates the place with which they were most connected), and for the cemetery. In fact we have in the past used these categories as indications of whether a particular cemetery is or is not notable. As such they are useful to Wikipedia editors as well as to Wikipedia readers.
Grutness...wha? 15:22, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose I have some broad concerns with the burial categories, but removing parent categories would not be helpful. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 22:58, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
oppose . There is no valid reason to delete this category, a navigation aid to readers to find the underlying articles.
Hmains (
talk) 01:48, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose if this were deleted all the underlying categories would not have the obvious navigational aid of 'by country' and a list with nothing but redirects to categories is not a good idea.
Carlossuarez46 (
talk) 21:45, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep -- This is a container, and a useful navigation aid. The one article should be moved to the appropriate subcategory.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 17:17, 10 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Strong oppose Burial location is a defining feature.
Dimadick (
talk) 18:04, 10 January 2021 (UTC)reply
support the location someone is buried at is not at all defining to their life or notability.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 14:02, 11 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Republic of Venice encyclopedists
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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There were several similar in Venice which I am afraid I emptied without noticing there was only one article.
Rathfelder (
talk) 10:21, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Merge per nom. Unlikely to receive expansion.
Dimadick (
talk) 18:05, 10 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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European Parliament constituencies in the United Kingdom
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Nominator's rationale: now that all
European Parliament constituencies in the United Kingdom are former constituencies, I suggest using dates to separate between the systems used between 1979 and 1999 (which were individual constituencies in all of Great Britain) and after that (9 regional constituencies in England and one each for Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales). At present the categories named for former constituencies contain the first set only, which needs to be fixed.
Place Clichy (
talk) 11:28, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Rename per nom. "Former" no longer distinguishes the two sets, so dates are need. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 00:59, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Google Arts & Culture works by unknown artists
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Nominator's rationale:Rename to plural. Merge others which were set up by a now-banned editor; these category names were presumbably originally generated by a template, but are now separately entered and therefore easily editable as normal. –
FayenaticLondon 11:30, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete/Rename if Kept I don't know if an unknown author aids navigation under "works by artist" categories since it's not grouping by an artist and it seems like
WP:OCMISC. If kept, by all means rename. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 17:52, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
No objection to creating such a parent category to keep these articles in the tree. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 02:13, 9 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Google Arts & Culture works by Kempf
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Nominator's rationale: Each of these contains only one file. The Google Arts pages on the paintings (Kempf
[1], Frantz
[2], see also
https://collection.cooperhewitt.org/objects/18570129/ ) have no further info, so it appears that only the artist's surname is known. –
FayenaticLondon 11:28, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete — this is confusing, there is also a proposed rename to plural. So the poor closer would have to read all these nonminations together. This doesn't aid navigation, and there's not enough information to evaluate. William Allen Simpson (
talk) 14:08, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
It is not really confusing, the proposal to rename the target category is completely independent from this proposal and the discussions can be closed separately.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 08:22, 8 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Google Arts & Culture works by Unknown MAKER - Bardi people
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Merge per nom. I also agree with RD's comment about the target category but the latter is not nominated now.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 21:17, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete — this is confusing, there is also a proposed rename to plural. So the poor closer would have to read all these nonminations together. This doesn't aid navigation, and there's not enough information to evaluate. William Allen Simpson (
talk) 14:09, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
It is not really confusing, the proposal to rename the target category is completely independent from this proposal and the discussions can be closed separately.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 08:22, 8 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Parliamentary private secretaries
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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I'm sorry but I didn't know who I could ask or where else to turn. Please can someone change these categories and add the word "the" to all of these categories so that it reads "to the" as at the moment it is grammatically correct:
Comment -- I am not sure that these categories should exist. A PPS is an appointment under a particular minister, not a departmental appointment. It is personal to the minister and would not be inherited by his successor, after a reshuffle. Does any one know better?
Peterkingiron (
talk) 17:54, 6 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Weak delete, this seems to be a minor political office, hardly defining.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 18:45, 6 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Comment - it should be 'Parliamentary Private Secretaries' in each case, subcats of
Category:Parliamentary Private Secretaries. The article
David Duguid (politician) does not mention Department for International Trade, so there is indeed a suspicion that Parliamentary Private Secretary to Department for International Trade is not a big deal.
Oculi (
talk) 22:40, 6 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Support The nom is correct about the grammar. These are unpaid "pre-ministerial" positions, the first step on the ladder for MPs. Some articles don't mention them, but they should. They are defining; a minor position is defining for a minor career. This is the highest position many MPs reach.
Johnbod (
talk) 03:22, 7 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Weak Delete/Speedy Rename if Kept Clicking through these I'm not sure they are defining. Certainly rename per
WP:C2A if kept. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 10:28, 7 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Weak delete, this seems to be a minor political office, hardly defining. --
Just N. (
talk) 15:48, 11 December 2020 (UTC)reply
These posts are indeed defining, but not in a departmental way. PPSs are attached to particular ministers who appoint them. If the minister changes departments so do they, usually. And they rarely don anything significant in the department.
Rathfelder (
talk) 18:59, 11 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Consensus that they are misnamed, no consensus on new name, or whether they should be deleted entirely. There are many related names in
Category:Parliamentary Private Secretaries.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
William Allen Simpson (
talk) 10:41, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment — on relist, found most of them are missing the nomination:
Delete. PPS is not a government or cabinet position.
Main article describes this position as an unpaid assistant, a bag carrier, a position to begin your progress with. Admittedly, people who held these offices also held a number of other positions before or after (such as MP or government minister) that would be more defining. Adding categories with such long names for a position so minor in a career adds much category clutter for little value. This is worth a mention in article, not a category. Clearly fails
WP:CATDEF.
Place Clichy (
talk) 09:39, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete for reasons in my comment above. No objection to merging to the general PPS category, but suspect that would be too big to be useful. Being a PPS is a sort of apprenticeship that can be followed by becoming a minster. AS stated, I think they are personal to the individual minister, not to the department where he is a minister.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 17:25, 10 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:TransLink (South East Queensland) templates
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Category:Tehreek-e-Labbaik Pakistan
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Oppose/reverse merge in order to keep the category name aligned with the article.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 06:08, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Reverse merge — most of the articles in the latter use the "-e-" form, so let's keep them with the main article. William Allen Simpson (
talk) 14:13, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Speedy Reverse Merge based on
WP:C2A, typographic and spelling fixes. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 14:50, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Prehistoric animals of China
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Nominator's rationale:Upmerge Having country-level categories of this sort is an anachronism, since China and Tibet are creations of historical, not physical, geography; all the other cats correspond to non-historical geographic locations.
UnitedStatesian (
talk) 19:51, 4 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose merger of "China into "Asia because paleontology and geology still have a lot of discussion and study about Chinese-specific palaeo-localities ("Dzungar basin," "Maotianshan Shales," etc).
Actually, we have
Category:Fossils of Canada which (as it consists almost entirely of articles about species/genera rather than actual fossil specimens) is Prehistoric animals of Canada in all but name. DexDor(talk) 07:48, 7 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Support merger of "Tibet into "China, though, as I don't see it a policy or tradition to have separate categories for different provinces.--
Mr Fink (
talk) 00:18, 5 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Manually merge both, as an unrelated intersection. Insofar there is discussion, it surely is not about the modern nationality of these animals. It should be merged manually because I expect that most articles are already in some other subcategory of
Category:Prehistoric animals of Asia.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 08:05, 5 December 2020 (UTC)reply
CommentOppose (at the moment) as the proposed merge would remove the articles from e.g.
Category:Extinct animals of China and the nom does not provide a reason for that. DexDor(talk) 08:15, 5 December 2020 (UTC)reply
The reason is that the finding of a fossil in China does not tell much about the animal's spread over the world. For example
Cervocerus fossils were found in China and Moldova, so finding places can be very random.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 09:06, 5 December 2020 (UTC)reply
So should the rule be to not categorize prehistoric plants/animals below continent level or to not categorize them geographically at all? Note: There's e.g
Category:Prehistoric animals of Madagascar. There may be cases (e.g. re India) where categorizing geographically is complicated. DexDor(talk) 11:49, 5 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Good question. It may be better not to categorize them geographically at all.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 23:13, 5 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Where I am headed is avoiding the anachronistic political categorizations. So
Madagascar (which is geographical, not just political),
Indian subcontinent,
Australia (continent), plus all the other continents are fine, just not the categorizations that are modern countries. But what do you think?
UnitedStatesian (
talk) 01:28, 6 December 2020 (UTC)reply
It does not resolve the fundamental problem that finding places of fossils are just random. Besides you run into problems with multiple finding places, how would you geographically categorize a species with finding places of fossils in India, Uzbekistan and Ukraine?
Marcocapelle (
talk) 05:24, 6 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Like
this?! We've been moving away from categorizing current species by countries etc and for prehistoric species categorization by country makes even less sense. DexDor(talk) 09:34, 6 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose The Tibet category could presumably by renamed to cover the
Tibetan Plateau, whose definition does not depend on political borders.
Dimadick (
talk) 22:34, 6 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Categorizing by regions like that can introduce other problems - they often overlap, have gaps, don't have clear boundaries, don't mesh well with the rest of the category structure ... DexDor(talk) 07:53, 7 December 2020 (UTC)reply
The nom's argument that these categories should be deleted as "anachronistic political categorizations" is wrong. The category is for articles about animals that lived in the part of the world that we now call China (or, if you prefer, animals whose remains were found in China). Note: There are many other categories (e.g.
Category:Cretaceous China) that could also be accused of being anachronistic. Marcocapelle's argument against categorizing prehistoric animals by small areas is more relevant. Thus, merge Tibet into China, but keep China for the moment. In the longer term (after other improvements to categorization in this area) an upmerge to East Asia or Asia might be considered. DexDor(talk) 22:25, 12 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Merge the Tibet catagory to the China one but we do not have any category on the other providences or states of other countries but at the same time we have categories on other countries
🌸 1.Ayana 🌸 (
talk) 17:32, 29 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
William Allen Simpson (
talk) 10:18, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Manually Merge as nominated after another 2 weeks with no discussion (matching
Category:Prehistoric arthropods of Asia,
Category:Prehistoric echinoderms of Asia, etc.); "by country or province" is an outlier compared to everything else in the
Category:Prehistoric animals by continent tree. Everybody seems to agree that Tibet should be merged somewhere. The Tibet category is small, but then Tibet is not as well researched. There's no connection of prehistoric to China, and nothing whatsoever with modern PRC that sprawls over topological features. But the techtonic plates are fairly well understood. Thus, Asia is the better result, as a well-populated category in a well-defined tree
WP:C2C. Let's update the guidelines to expedite future decisions. William Allen Simpson (
talk) 17:27, 18 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:SCIRA commodores
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was:delete as non-defining; noting that there is now a full list in the article that has been created – although whether that list is valid encyclopaedic content is another question. –
FayenaticLondon 22:43, 31 January 2021 (UTC)reply
I'm fine with that, though there is an extensive categorization scheme of people who are heads of international sporting bodies: see subcategories of
Category:Sports executives and administrators. Perhaps deletion is okay for this one because we don't have an article about the sporting body.
Good Ol’factory(talk) 01:32, 4 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Comment -- The expansion is too much of a mouthful: the expansion would be better given in a headnote.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 17:43, 6 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Lean Toward Delete/Neutral on Name This doesn't seem defining in the articles and there's not a main article, although maybe there's a possibility of improvements. No opinion on name since there's no main article to match it to. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 00:31, 10 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: In the long month, there is now a matching main article.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
William Allen Simpson (
talk) 10:07, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
I maintain the comment I made above, suggesting Keep, but having the expansion in a headnote. The reverse should apply to the article as SCIRA is obscure, except to cognoscenti.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 17:30, 10 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete — I've checked a few articles, but none of them mentions "commodore". Even a winner of the world race. Beggars belief that this was defining part of their lives. Beyond cognoscenti, this required
personal research, as it is not mentioned by any
WP:RS. Even the new main article has only a list taken from a handbook published by the organization. Leave it in the list. William Allen Simpson (
talk) 16:38, 18 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Chinese contemporary classical opera singers
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Nominator's rationale: These singers don't just sing 20th-century Chinese-libretto operas. Reveal the real feature without any potential ambiguity.
Seanetienne (
talk) 15:52, 2 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Rename per nom. We need to think broadly about the best way to classify people. In the case of singers that means not classifying them by every possible small genre they could sing, but looking at the large grouping in which they participate and making categories that are both large enough for navigation and at least for some people keep down the number of categories we put them in. Opera singers is a fine enough categorization, especially considering we normally break that up further by which specific voice range they sing in. We should not be sub-dividing opera singers by the specific type of opera they engage in.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 20:30, 10 December 2020 (UTC)reply
First thing to bear in mind: Chinese opera is not opera, but the terminology for a form of musical theatre of Chinese tradition. "Chinese opera singers" (former title of this category) contained an ambiguity that led to a mix of "opera singers of Chinese nationalty" (what this category is about) and "performers of Chinese opera" (successfully separated into Category:Actors of Chinese opera). "Western-style opera singers" bears little sense, since opera (musical composition form) is western by essence, and it's probably natural instinct to associate "opera singers" with the European bel canto singing technique. "adj. +opera" is an unnecessary attempt to avoid confusion, because the two belong to largely separate category trees and wouldn't meet each other under natural circumstances, so no worries. Even if so, the category already contains a note to clarify. Plus, there is precedent of renaming "Georgian opera singers" to "Opera singers from Georgia (country)" to avoid ambiguity (the country or a US state).
Seanetienne (
talk) 17:11, 11 December 2020 (UTC) edited
Seanetienne (
talk) 10:22, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Consensus to rename, not enough discussion to determine target
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
William Allen Simpson (
talk) 09:54, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
That's a reminder of the big context behind the whole argument. Anyway, one has to know that performers of any variety of Chinese opera are actors, not singers, therefore "opera singers" is enough, by intuition, to encapsulate the sense of "singers performing certain type of musical composition which is of European roots".
Seanetienne (
talk) 13:27, 7 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Looking back, I feel the need to apologize to
User:Marcocapelle for being quite aggressive during the argument. It may look like me in an immature attempt to defend the so-called "integrity of the definition".
Seanetienne (
talk) 17:04, 14 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Thank you, but I have never experienced it as aggressive. It has been a very reasonable discussion.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 19:40, 14 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:The Downlink
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Nominator's rationale: Looking for better solutions for a name as this category should be identified as being part of a WikiProject within its name. StarcheerspeaksnewslostwarsTalk to me 01:59, 2 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Change: I think the best way to rename it would be
Category:The Downlink WikiProject since the
WP:CATNAME guideline states that "WikiProject" should be in the title. However it seems unnecessary to name it with Spaceflight since it is well labeled as Spaceflight already on the category page and would not add anything meaningful other than a longer category name since all pages in the category are subpages of WikiProject Spaceflight.
Terasail[✉] 15:42, 2 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Alt Rename Perfer Terasail's proposal but will support any rename with "WikiProject" added.
RevelationDirect (
talk) 02:44, 4 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
William Allen Simpson (
talk) 09:43, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Rename as nominated per William Allen Simpson.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 21:26, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Dadasaheb Phalke International Film Festival Awards South
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was:delete as empty (as a result of the AFD).
Good Ol’factory(talk) 03:45, 14 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: Category creator recently created an article on
Dadasaheb Phalke International Film Festival Awards South as well as two content forks. This appears to be a non-notable festival that doles out awards like any other Indian award mill, and the article creator has subsequently added this award to a score of articles, and now appears to be using category space to create sprawl.
Cyphoidbomb (
talk) 02:22, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Related Nom There is an AFD nomination for the main article located
right here. You input (pro/con/other) is always welcome. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 17:32, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Honorary citizens of Baikonur
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Baikonur or "Star City" was the center of the Soviet space program (and now the Russian space program) and the city gave out a the
Honorary Citizen of Baikonur award to Soviet cosmonauts (and now Russian cosmonauts). These biography articles are already well grouped under
Category:Soviet cosmonauts (and
Category:Russian cosmonauts). The creator of the category added an External Link to all the articles (see
this edit history) but they otherwise make no mention of the award.
These municipal "honory citizen" awards are too common to be defining which is why
Valeri Kubasov's article lists 11 of them (not counting this one). I copied the current category contents
right here so no work is lost if anyone wants to find reliable sources to establish notability to create a main article. -
RevelationDirect (
talk) 00:10, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete this is a clear over categorization by award.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 14:12, 11 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Heroes of Kosovo
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