The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to List of A Song of Ice and Fire characters#Ygritte. This goes mostly in line with the reasoning that the article is entirely plot summary. For a stand-alone article, more is needed. Tone 10:39, 17 December 2019 (UTC) reply

Ygritte

Ygritte (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)

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Another Game of Thrones article that fails GNG/NFICTION. Pure plot summary, not a shred of analysis. BEFORE doesn't find much, sure there is a lot of articles out there on GoT minute but they don't go beyond plot summaries like [1]: "this character died, which will of course affect some other characters". That's not an analysis, that's plot summary and nothing but. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 14:31, 9 December 2019 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 14:31, 9 December 2019 (UTC) reply

• Keep "You know nothing..." Another nomination that fails WP:BEFORE and utterly ignores our policies including WP:ATD; WP:NOTPAPER and WP:PRESERVE. Andrew🐉( talk) 14:41, 9 December 2019 (UTC) reply
• Keep. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus, I greatly respect thee and thine quest to remove fan cruft. However, as Ygritte would say "You know nothing, Jon Snow....". Was no BEFORE done? There are many references available, for instance: [2], [3]. There is even a book on what Jon knows penned by "Ygritte" [4]. I am gravely disappointed, Piotrus. Kacper IV ( talk) 14:49, 9 December 2019 (UTC) reply
  • @ Kacper IV: The third source is WP:SPS, the first one only attests that a saying of hers has become popular. The third one is more in-depth but does it really go beyond a plot summary? -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:57, 10 December 2019 (UTC) reply
• Merge to List of A Song of Ice and Fire characters#Ygritte. PLOT-only articles do not make for a legitimate spinoff per WP:WAF#Summary style approach. Either add real-world material to the article (hasn't happened since it was notability-tagged 2.5 years ago), or get rid of the stand-alone article. – sgeureka ^{t• c} 16:27, 9 December 2019 (UTC) reply
• Redirect to List of A Song of Ice and Fire characters#Ygritte. IMHO, standalone articles for fictional characters should be limited to major characters with a lot of out-of-universe coverage in reliable sources (consider Darth Vader as a good example). Articles about fictional characters that are primarily plot summaries belong on Wikia, not Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.77.202.56 ( talk) 17:03, 9 December 2019 (UTC) reply
• Keep Notable character from one of the most notable series of the past eight years. We keep such articles. "You know nothing John Snow!" For reference see Night King AfD. Lightburst ( talk) 17:51, 9 December 2019 (UTC) reply
• Redirect - Currently fails WP:GNG. The above sourcing seems rather minor. TTN ( talk) 00:59, 10 December 2019 (UTC) reply
• Keep Fairly notable character that received considerable commentary in the reviews of the show -- could be recovered, shouldn't be deleted wholesale, Sadads ( talk) 14:22, 10 December 2019 (UTC) reply
• Keep as what's good for print encyclopedias is good for Wikipedia. -- 199.123.13.2 ( talk) 22:17, 11 December 2019 (UTC)blocked sock reply
• Redirect Minor character who appeared in several episodes of seasons 2 and 3, then kinda-sorta in season 4 before being killed by another minor character. I do think we need to address these articles in a more comprehensive manner, though; maybe auto-redirect all the articles that were created by the sockpuppeting troll AffeL? Anyway, User:IvanVector, would I be right in guessing that the block-evasion block you placed on the above IP was CU-related and so you can't disclose whose block was being evaded? Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 09:04, 12 December 2019 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fantasy-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp ( talk) 15:31, 13 December 2019 (UTC) reply

• Keep. Not a minor character, but a major, top-billed character in one of the most successful TV series ever made and the source of what is probably its most notable quote. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 15:31, 13 December 2019 (UTC) reply

How is she not a minor character? In the books she is not a viewpoint character, and in the TV show she (according to this) "appeared in" a total of 17 out of 73 episodes. "top-billed" seems like a dubious rationale for a standalone article on a character: Danai Gurira got top billing in Avengers: Endgame, but her character spoke, I believe, all of three lines throughout the film, and we already have an article of Rose Leslie. Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 01:29, 15 December 2019 (UTC) reply

Minor characters in GoT hardly include those who were billed during the opening credits. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 13:01, 16 December 2019 (UTC) reply

Would you be willing to concede that a character can be a major or mid-level character in several episodes of seasons 2 and 3 but a minor character in the show as a whole? The performer is also certainly better-known for her non-/pre-Thrones achievements than almost any of the others who appeared in the show. Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 13:27, 16 December 2019 (UTC) reply

No, I would not. Sorry. And I don't agree with your last point either. She's still far better known for GoT than for anything else. But we're not talking about Rose Leslie here in any case. If you're trying to suggest that she only got top billing because she was already well-known, I would point out that Max von Sydow, a big-name international film star, was in it and did not get top billing! As were other well-known actors like Donald Sumpter, Peter Vaughan and Julian Glover, all of whom had substantial roles. That doesn't wash at all. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 13:36, 16 December 2019 (UTC) reply

And I don't agree with your last point either. She's still far better known for GoT than for anything else. That's not what I said. I said she was better-known before getting on GoT than most of the other GoT actors were before getting on the show. She was on Downton Abbey a full year (or at least a TV season) before GoT started, and was not cast in GoT until a full year after that. I agree with you that she is now better known for GoT, but unlike, say, Kit Harrington, Emilia Clarke, and even Peter Dinklage (all of whom, I would argue, are still also best-known for GoT), she actually had well-known television roles before GoT. (And no, the existence of Sean Bean, Lena Headey and Charles Dance does not disprove my point, any more than Alec Guinness and Peter Cushing having been in Star Wars meant that film's cast wasn't filled primarily with unknowns.) Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 01:51, 17 December 2019 (UTC) reply

And I still disagree with you. Despite being a big fan of Downton, I don't remember her from that at all and didn't when she arrived in GoT. Peter Dinklage was also a very well-known actor before he was on GoT. I notice you don't address my other point that much bigger stars did not receive top billing. Even Charles Dance didn't until the second season he was in. Neither did Jerome Flynn, already exceptionally well-known in the UK for Soldier, Soldier and his musical career. Nor Jonathan Pryce, an internationally-known star of films and musicals. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 10:37, 17 December 2019 (UTC) reply

• Redirect to List of A Song of Ice and Fire characters#Ygritte, not enough real world notability for a standalone article. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 00:57, 14 December 2019 (UTC) reply
• Redirect to List of A Song of Ice and Fire characters#Ygritte.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 06:26, 15 December 2019 (UTC) reply
• Keep The article needs to be improved and it doesn't include enough reliable sources at the moment, but a very quick search finds that there are more than enough out there to show that this subject passes WP:N and WP:GNG. — Hunter Kahn 03:27, 16 December 2019 (UTC) reply

@ Hunter Kahn: Could you give some examples of at least the kind of content found in those sources that could be included in our article? The existence of a large number of reliable secondary sources have summarized the plot of each episode of this show and the roles of various characters therein is not in dispute. Moreover, any discussion of Leslie's performance of the character and the reception thereof more properly belongs in our article on her, per previous discussions with the article's creator here and here. Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 06:06, 16 December 2019 (UTC) reply

• Sure, here are a couple examples of notable sources that discuss the character outside the context of simply plot summary: [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12]. This is not based on an in-depth search for sources, incidentally, but rather a quick cursory glance at the top Google News search results; deeper dives in books and news articles, databases like NewsBank or Lexis Nexis, and material like GoT DVD commentary tracks would produce much more. That being said, the small sampling includes content that could be used for such sections as characterization, character conception/creation, portrayal, cultural impact, critical reception, etc. (Incidentally, it's not correct to say information about the actor's performance should be limited solely to that actor's page; it's very common practice for information about a character's portrayal to be included in an article about a fictional character, and indeed it would be a glaring omission if it were not included. Look at any number of quality content for articles in this area and you'll see it included.) — Hunter Kahn 15:21, 16 December 2019 (UTC) reply

• This is indisputably more about the actor than the character; what it says about the character can be summed up in a single sentence, hence not enough to hang a standalone article on.
• This is an unreliable source. The paragraph beginning "thankfully" is filled with speculation based on the books (from which the show had already diverged significantly, and Stahler had no reason to believe this trend was going to be reversed), which all turned out to be spectacularly wrong.
• This and this are again more about the actor (and to a lesser extent the episode The Watchers on the Wall) than the character, about whom they say almost nothing.
• This I will admit is largely about the character, but it doesn't say much beyond WP:SPECULATION. The sentence Leslie said in an interview with Entertainment Weekly that she thought that in the episode " Mhysa", Ygritte was not intent on killing Jon or stopping him, but rather "to hurt him". could easily be incorporated into List of Game of Thrones characters, but it certainly isn't enough to hang a standalone article on.
• This is shameless clickbait based on a redditor's tinfoil fan theory. I can only assume you have not actually read it, because it literally makes no sense.
• This ... have you even read it? It's clearly about the actor, not the character. The fact that reliable sources (?) are now verifying some dubious BLP content that this article's creator had previously edit-warred into a separate article does not make this topic notable, any more than it retroactively exonerates said creator's behaviour.
• This is speculation on what a character who died in season 4 would think of a character who until the end of season 6 was on the other side of the world. It is essentially a stretching out to article length of this short paragraph; I can only guess MentalFloss was desperate for clicks in the leadup to the season 8 premier.

Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 01:21, 17 December 2019 (UTC) reply

• Needless to say, I don't agree with all of your points above, and in some cases I think you are overemphasizing and magnifying perceived issues with the sources while ignoring other aspects of the articles that would be useful in expanding the page. (Your continued insistance that all aspects of the actor's performance of the character are only relevant to the article of the actor, and not the character, is particularly misguided.) By regardless, I have no interest in going through a point-by-point discussion with you about individual sources; that it not the purpose of an AFD discussion. My only point was that a very brief cursory search for sources turned up several, and that there are many others, all of which point to the notability of this subject. — Hunter Kahn 03:52, 17 December 2019 (UTC) reply

Your continued insistance that all aspects of the actor's performance of the character are only relevant to the article of the actor, and not the character, is particularly misguided. If you could either (a) point to where I "insisted continuously" on that or (b) retract your groundless allegation, that would be helpful. What I said was that such sources are not useful for demonstrating notability of the character. If Ygritte was like, say, Elsa (Frozen) and had been subject to a large volume of easily verifiable critical analysis, then we could also include Leslie's commentary on the character in the article on the character, as the Elsa article quotes Adele Dazeem, but lacking enough material to build a proper article on the character out of material that would be more fitting to such an article than any other one article, there's no reason that that content shouldn't be included in the article on Leslie.

And again, this article's existence has been the subject of controversy ever since AffeL violated existing consensus by un-redirecting it almost four years ago, and in that time no one has actually managed to introduce non-ALLPLOT to the article; I highly doubt that if this AFD is closed as either "keep" or "no consensus; default to keep" you or any of the other keep !voters will bother to put your money where your mouth is and ameliorate that situation. You are happy to say that you have sources that provide us with verifiable, encyclopedic information, but none of you are apparently willing to show that such an article can be built.

Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 05:12, 17 December 2019 (UTC) reply

• Comment. I've reviewed the sources presented here and I stand by my rationale, concurring with H88's analysis that they are mostly PLOT summaries/in passing/unreliable/etc. Thee is nothing to be said about this character that's not plot-based speculation. -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:44, 17 December 2019 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.