- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. It would help if sources in this discussion found their way into the article so there is not a return trip to AFD. Liz Read! Talk! 03:31, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
Voice of the Turtle
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- Voice of the Turtle ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Lack of notable coverage. From analyzing the sources, they are either passing mentions of the group and don't cover the group in depth(Wachs' obituary, the NYT source) or they are primary sources(Rootsworld is an interview, one of the sources is just a video of their concert, and Marini's book, as far as I can tell, contains an interview with Wachs as coverage of the group.) I also found no independent/third-party and notable sources that could be used to improve the page. Jaguarnik ( talk) 02:08, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
- The group disbanded after Wachs died, so there isn't a whole lot of new news. I will see if I can find updates that are relevant. They have a dozen albums on an established record label, which is way above the notability criteria for a band. Their work is also significant from an ethnomusicology point of view. Behind each album is significant historical research, which involved travel all over the world to find historical records.
Asbruckman (
talk) 13:52, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
- I added an additional cite to comments by an ethnomusicologist about the archival research that supports their music. Does that help at all?
Asbruckman (
talk) 21:48, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
- Hi, this is Joel Bresler, the publisher of www.sephardicmusic.org, one of the leading sources of information about Sephardic music on the web. VOT had a profound impact on the evolution of Sephardic music performance and recordings for numerous reasons. First, they released 12 albums, more than any other group. Second, they were well integrated into the *substantial* Boston Early Music community and so made quite an impression. Third, they were involved quite early, which increased their importance still further. Fourth, Ms. Wachs undertook substantial research including trips to Israel where she used the documentary print and sound resources at the National Sound Archive and (I believe) the Voice of Israel to collect repertory, tunes, performance practice, etc. Rather than remove this article - which seems to me off to a very solid start - I would suggest keeping it and letting the community embellish and expand it. Thanks for the chance to offer my thoughts. JB Discoguy ( talk) 22:44, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
- I added an additional cite to comments by an ethnomusicologist about the archival research that supports their music. Does that help at all?
Asbruckman (
talk) 21:48, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. A. B. ( talk • contribs • global count) 14:51, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. A. B. ( talk • contribs • global count) 14:52, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 02:09, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
- Keep per Discoguy.
- — A. B. ( talk • contribs • global count) 02:21, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 01:44, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
- Keep. Meets multiple prongs of
WP:NBAND including
WP:NBAND#C1,
#C7 and
#C5.
- Here's some in-depth secondary coverage intermingled with an interview in the Boston Globe
[1], one quote short but relevant from that coverage:
- "Wachs and her quartet, Voice of the Turtle, are the preeminent exponents of Sephardic folk music in the country, perhaps the world."
- In depth coverage from the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel
[2] including:
- "Voice of the Turtle, an ensemble dedicated to preserving and performing music of the Iberian Jews, was presented in concert by Early Music Now. Voice of the Turtle has spent the past 19 years collecting and studying Sephardic music. Saturday's performance featured pieces reflecting the culture in diaspora. Melodies came from Turkey, Jerusalem and Bulgaria, places to which the Sephardim fled. The ensemble, Derek Burrows, Lisle Kulbach, Jay Rosenberg and founder/artistic director Judith Wachs, played a bevy of instruments ranging from a Medieval Spanish bagpipe to various flutes, lutes and percussion instruments, as well as harp, guitar and various bowed string instruments."
- Here's some coverage from Washington Post discussing a performance
[3] including:
- "On this occasion, a concert titled "Rites of Spring" given at the first annual Washington Jewish Music Festival, they sang three versions of "Had Gadya," an Aramaic song celebrating Passover. Then, in a spectacular demonstration of the vitality and diversity of the music they have collected in 21 years of performing medieval and folk music together, Voice of the Turtle sang a suite of more than a dozen other versions from Greece, Turkey, Bulgaria, Provence, Morocco, Yemen, Romania and Yugoslavia--countries in which the Sephardim took refuge when they were driven out of Spain in 1492."
- Here's some in-depth secondary coverage intermingled with an interview in the Boston Globe
[1], one quote short but relevant from that coverage:
- There is more in ProQuest. I didn't check any other databases or search engines. — siro χ o 05:23, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. It would help if sources in this discussion found their way into the article so there is not a return trip to AFD. Liz Read! Talk! 03:31, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
Voice of the Turtle
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Voice of the Turtle ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Lack of notable coverage. From analyzing the sources, they are either passing mentions of the group and don't cover the group in depth(Wachs' obituary, the NYT source) or they are primary sources(Rootsworld is an interview, one of the sources is just a video of their concert, and Marini's book, as far as I can tell, contains an interview with Wachs as coverage of the group.) I also found no independent/third-party and notable sources that could be used to improve the page. Jaguarnik ( talk) 02:08, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
- The group disbanded after Wachs died, so there isn't a whole lot of new news. I will see if I can find updates that are relevant. They have a dozen albums on an established record label, which is way above the notability criteria for a band. Their work is also significant from an ethnomusicology point of view. Behind each album is significant historical research, which involved travel all over the world to find historical records.
Asbruckman (
talk) 13:52, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
- I added an additional cite to comments by an ethnomusicologist about the archival research that supports their music. Does that help at all?
Asbruckman (
talk) 21:48, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
- Hi, this is Joel Bresler, the publisher of www.sephardicmusic.org, one of the leading sources of information about Sephardic music on the web. VOT had a profound impact on the evolution of Sephardic music performance and recordings for numerous reasons. First, they released 12 albums, more than any other group. Second, they were well integrated into the *substantial* Boston Early Music community and so made quite an impression. Third, they were involved quite early, which increased their importance still further. Fourth, Ms. Wachs undertook substantial research including trips to Israel where she used the documentary print and sound resources at the National Sound Archive and (I believe) the Voice of Israel to collect repertory, tunes, performance practice, etc. Rather than remove this article - which seems to me off to a very solid start - I would suggest keeping it and letting the community embellish and expand it. Thanks for the chance to offer my thoughts. JB Discoguy ( talk) 22:44, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
- I added an additional cite to comments by an ethnomusicologist about the archival research that supports their music. Does that help at all?
Asbruckman (
talk) 21:48, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. A. B. ( talk • contribs • global count) 14:51, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. A. B. ( talk • contribs • global count) 14:52, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 02:09, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
- Keep per Discoguy.
- — A. B. ( talk • contribs • global count) 02:21, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 01:44, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
- Keep. Meets multiple prongs of
WP:NBAND including
WP:NBAND#C1,
#C7 and
#C5.
- Here's some in-depth secondary coverage intermingled with an interview in the Boston Globe
[1], one quote short but relevant from that coverage:
- "Wachs and her quartet, Voice of the Turtle, are the preeminent exponents of Sephardic folk music in the country, perhaps the world."
- In depth coverage from the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel
[2] including:
- "Voice of the Turtle, an ensemble dedicated to preserving and performing music of the Iberian Jews, was presented in concert by Early Music Now. Voice of the Turtle has spent the past 19 years collecting and studying Sephardic music. Saturday's performance featured pieces reflecting the culture in diaspora. Melodies came from Turkey, Jerusalem and Bulgaria, places to which the Sephardim fled. The ensemble, Derek Burrows, Lisle Kulbach, Jay Rosenberg and founder/artistic director Judith Wachs, played a bevy of instruments ranging from a Medieval Spanish bagpipe to various flutes, lutes and percussion instruments, as well as harp, guitar and various bowed string instruments."
- Here's some coverage from Washington Post discussing a performance
[3] including:
- "On this occasion, a concert titled "Rites of Spring" given at the first annual Washington Jewish Music Festival, they sang three versions of "Had Gadya," an Aramaic song celebrating Passover. Then, in a spectacular demonstration of the vitality and diversity of the music they have collected in 21 years of performing medieval and folk music together, Voice of the Turtle sang a suite of more than a dozen other versions from Greece, Turkey, Bulgaria, Provence, Morocco, Yemen, Romania and Yugoslavia--countries in which the Sephardim took refuge when they were driven out of Spain in 1492."
- Here's some in-depth secondary coverage intermingled with an interview in the Boston Globe
[1], one quote short but relevant from that coverage:
- There is more in ProQuest. I didn't check any other databases or search engines. — siro χ o 05:23, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.