- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. (non-admin closure) MaxnaCarter ( talk) 02:09, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
Star Brand
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Star Brand ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
This is a very subpar case of comic fancruft, pretty much all plot summary, even the publication history is mostly untouched and unreferenced. The coverage (references, external links, etc.) does not seem sufficient to justify this article passing Wikipedia:General notability guideline requirement nor the more detailed Wikipedia:Notability (fiction) supplementary essay. WP:BEFORE did not reveal any significant coverage on Gnews, Gbooks or Gscholar. While I'd prefer a softdelete redirect over hard delete, I am not sure what would be a good target, given that this name refers to several objects within the Marvel Universe, connected to different comic book series. There also was a comic book series called Star Brand, but it doesn't appear to meet WP:NMEDIA. Lastly, lower case star brand is a term that, in academic literature, refers to top brands, and on the off chance this is kept, it needs to be renamed, as my BEFORE suggests the primary meaning of a star brand is related to management/economics, not pop culture. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 15:33, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Fictional elements, Science fiction and fantasy, and Comics and animation. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 15:33, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- Keep perfectly fine article. The argument that the article needs to be renamed is complete bunk and should be ignored. Artw ( talk) 13:48, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- Added some refs and removed the notability tag. A lot more refs still need to be added to bolster the various appearances and publication history but that does not seem like it would be too hard, there's a lot out there.
Artw (
talk) 18:57, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- You are proving the existence of this entity, but not it's notability. Please let us know when you've written a reception section.
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 09:57, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- The existence of this entity is somthing you should already no from basic
WP:BEFORE. Prior to the AfD the article already had significant material on the reception and publication history of the character/title, which you should know from reading the article. Consolidating some of that in a reception section may make that clearer but the article remains within
WP:N regardless since significant coverage in reliable sources is present.
Artw (
talk) 13:27, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Maybe we are looking at different articles. "Prior to the AfD the article already had significant material on the reception". Huh. Do quote that material.
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 15:28, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Material related to the development, publication history and reception:
- "The Star Brand was created by Marvel Comics editor-in-chief Jim Shooter to be the flagship series of the New Universe line. Mark Gruenwald's notes from the meeting in which the New Universe concept was fleshed out indicate that the original title was "Will Power", and that the name "Star Brand" was taken from an unused concept by Archie Goodwin."
- "The series was originally written by Shooter. The New Universe had no budget with which to hire big-name talent, so it was to Shooter's surprise that John Romita, Jr. (a rising industry star) and Al Williamson (an esteemed comics veteran) volunteered to be the penciler and inker, respectively, of Star Brand. The stories followed protagonist Ken Connell in his struggle to use his near limitless power in the right way. Jim Shooter's run on Star Brand was unique in that, unlike nearly every other superhero comic up to that time, it was not told from omniscient point-of-view, and instead showed only Ken Connell's firsthand experiences. After issue #7, Shooter was fired from Marvel, and Romita and Williamson left the series. Star Brand was taken down to bi-monthly status, and consisted of fill-in issues for the next half year."
- "John Byrne, at the prompting of New Universe editor Howard Mackie (a close friend of Byrne's), took over both the writing and breakdowns with issue #11. Shortly after, a meeting between Byrne, Mackie, and DP 7 writer Mark Gruenwald was held to come up with a plot device to raise interest in the New Universe. The idea of the Star Brand destroying Pittsburgh was devised at this meeting and implemented in The Star Brand #12. Following this issue, Ken Connell was reduced to a supporting character, and the series became a more generalized account of the effects of the Star Brand on humankind. The series was cancelled with issue #19."
- "Following the dissolution of the New Universe imprint, Mark Gruenwald, the writer of the New Universe title DP7, used the Star Brand and other New Universe characters some years later in Quasar. He later used them in the Starblast limited series and crossover which ended when The Stranger used the Star Brand to move the Earth of the New Universe into orbit around his labworld."
- "Writer Warren Ellis re-imagined the New Universe and has since named it newuniversal, portraying Kenneth Connell as the Star Brand, originally from Optima Down, Oklahoma. The origin of the Star Brand is central to the entire New Universe re-imagining. "
- "Brand/New Universe creator Jim Shooter (Shooter had modeled many aspects of the Connell character on himself). Issued around the time of the downsizing of the New Universe line and Shooter's departure from Marvel, the scene in Legends depicts Sunspot/Connell/Shooter at one point exclaiming "I wield the ultimate power...the power to create a New Universe!", which was then followed by his accidentally shooting himself in the foot. This issue was written by John Byrne, who shortly thereafter returned to Marvel to take over the writing of the Star Brand comic itself."
- "John Byrne, at the prompting of New Universe editor Howard Mackie (a close friend of Byrne's),[6][9] took over both the writing and breakdowns with issue #11. Shortly after, a meeting between Byrne, Mackie, and DP 7 writer Mark Gruenwald was held to come up with a plot device to raise interest in the New Universe. The idea of the Star Brand destroying Pittsburgh was devised at this meeting[9] and implemented in The Star Brand #12. Following this issue, Ken Connell was reduced to a supporting character, and the series became a more generalized account of the effects of the Star Brand on humankind. The series was cancelled with issue #19."
- So it was pivotal to a new line of comics created by Jim Shooter, survived the firing of Shooter and that collapse of that line of comics to reappeared under multiple creative teams in multiple fictional universes, and was the lynchpin of the creative vision of at least one of them. It also had sufficient impact to be worth parodying. In addition and not quoted there's plenty of material on other appearances across multiple titles involving dozens of creators, muddled with a lot of in universe material but still significant. Absolutely seems a worthy basis of an article to me.
Artw (
talk) 16:05, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks. Now I think this can be rescued, but, sigh, work is needed. I think until the work is done, some sort of copyedit templates should remain in the article. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:38, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
- Material related to the development, publication history and reception:
- Maybe we are looking at different articles. "Prior to the AfD the article already had significant material on the reception". Huh. Do quote that material.
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 15:28, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- The existence of this entity is somthing you should already no from basic
WP:BEFORE. Prior to the AfD the article already had significant material on the reception and publication history of the character/title, which you should know from reading the article. Consolidating some of that in a reception section may make that clearer but the article remains within
WP:N regardless since significant coverage in reliable sources is present.
Artw (
talk) 13:27, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- You are proving the existence of this entity, but not it's notability. Please let us know when you've written a reception section.
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 09:57, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Added some refs and removed the notability tag. A lot more refs still need to be added to bolster the various appearances and publication history but that does not seem like it would be too hard, there's a lot out there.
Artw (
talk) 18:57, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Delete - Totally unencyclopedic article (see WP:FANCRUFT). The argument that the piece requires to be renamed is also very sound (if this is kept, a request move procedure will be necessary). - GizzyCatBella 🍁 14:17, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Keep - Let this page stay. We have had different incarnations of Star Brand in Marvel Comics and it should be worth mentioning on this website somewhere. Plus, @ Artw: is right about his claims. -- Rtkat3 ( talk) 00:47, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America 1000 11:46, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
- Keep with a re-focus on the Star Brand comic. This title has received in-depth coverage as part of the New Universe experiment in books like Modern Masters: John Romita Jr, Conversations: Jim Shooter, and in online sources like Ghosts of Comics Past. Argento Surfer ( talk) 18:18, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
- Keep. Convinced by Argento Surfer and Artw. // Julle ( talk) 11:01, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
- Keep per arguments above; failing that, at worst, it could be merged to New Universe. BOZ ( talk) 12:48, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
- One other suggestion should the keeps fail would be redirecting the article to
List of Marvel Comics characters: S. Right? --
Rtkat3 (
talk) 19:18, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
- Certainly. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:50, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
- One other suggestion should the keeps fail would be redirecting the article to
List of Marvel Comics characters: S. Right? --
Rtkat3 (
talk) 19:18, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. (non-admin closure) MaxnaCarter ( talk) 02:09, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
Star Brand
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Star Brand ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
This is a very subpar case of comic fancruft, pretty much all plot summary, even the publication history is mostly untouched and unreferenced. The coverage (references, external links, etc.) does not seem sufficient to justify this article passing Wikipedia:General notability guideline requirement nor the more detailed Wikipedia:Notability (fiction) supplementary essay. WP:BEFORE did not reveal any significant coverage on Gnews, Gbooks or Gscholar. While I'd prefer a softdelete redirect over hard delete, I am not sure what would be a good target, given that this name refers to several objects within the Marvel Universe, connected to different comic book series. There also was a comic book series called Star Brand, but it doesn't appear to meet WP:NMEDIA. Lastly, lower case star brand is a term that, in academic literature, refers to top brands, and on the off chance this is kept, it needs to be renamed, as my BEFORE suggests the primary meaning of a star brand is related to management/economics, not pop culture. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 15:33, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Fictional elements, Science fiction and fantasy, and Comics and animation. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 15:33, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- Keep perfectly fine article. The argument that the article needs to be renamed is complete bunk and should be ignored. Artw ( talk) 13:48, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- Added some refs and removed the notability tag. A lot more refs still need to be added to bolster the various appearances and publication history but that does not seem like it would be too hard, there's a lot out there.
Artw (
talk) 18:57, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- You are proving the existence of this entity, but not it's notability. Please let us know when you've written a reception section.
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 09:57, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- The existence of this entity is somthing you should already no from basic
WP:BEFORE. Prior to the AfD the article already had significant material on the reception and publication history of the character/title, which you should know from reading the article. Consolidating some of that in a reception section may make that clearer but the article remains within
WP:N regardless since significant coverage in reliable sources is present.
Artw (
talk) 13:27, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Maybe we are looking at different articles. "Prior to the AfD the article already had significant material on the reception". Huh. Do quote that material.
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 15:28, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Material related to the development, publication history and reception:
- "The Star Brand was created by Marvel Comics editor-in-chief Jim Shooter to be the flagship series of the New Universe line. Mark Gruenwald's notes from the meeting in which the New Universe concept was fleshed out indicate that the original title was "Will Power", and that the name "Star Brand" was taken from an unused concept by Archie Goodwin."
- "The series was originally written by Shooter. The New Universe had no budget with which to hire big-name talent, so it was to Shooter's surprise that John Romita, Jr. (a rising industry star) and Al Williamson (an esteemed comics veteran) volunteered to be the penciler and inker, respectively, of Star Brand. The stories followed protagonist Ken Connell in his struggle to use his near limitless power in the right way. Jim Shooter's run on Star Brand was unique in that, unlike nearly every other superhero comic up to that time, it was not told from omniscient point-of-view, and instead showed only Ken Connell's firsthand experiences. After issue #7, Shooter was fired from Marvel, and Romita and Williamson left the series. Star Brand was taken down to bi-monthly status, and consisted of fill-in issues for the next half year."
- "John Byrne, at the prompting of New Universe editor Howard Mackie (a close friend of Byrne's), took over both the writing and breakdowns with issue #11. Shortly after, a meeting between Byrne, Mackie, and DP 7 writer Mark Gruenwald was held to come up with a plot device to raise interest in the New Universe. The idea of the Star Brand destroying Pittsburgh was devised at this meeting and implemented in The Star Brand #12. Following this issue, Ken Connell was reduced to a supporting character, and the series became a more generalized account of the effects of the Star Brand on humankind. The series was cancelled with issue #19."
- "Following the dissolution of the New Universe imprint, Mark Gruenwald, the writer of the New Universe title DP7, used the Star Brand and other New Universe characters some years later in Quasar. He later used them in the Starblast limited series and crossover which ended when The Stranger used the Star Brand to move the Earth of the New Universe into orbit around his labworld."
- "Writer Warren Ellis re-imagined the New Universe and has since named it newuniversal, portraying Kenneth Connell as the Star Brand, originally from Optima Down, Oklahoma. The origin of the Star Brand is central to the entire New Universe re-imagining. "
- "Brand/New Universe creator Jim Shooter (Shooter had modeled many aspects of the Connell character on himself). Issued around the time of the downsizing of the New Universe line and Shooter's departure from Marvel, the scene in Legends depicts Sunspot/Connell/Shooter at one point exclaiming "I wield the ultimate power...the power to create a New Universe!", which was then followed by his accidentally shooting himself in the foot. This issue was written by John Byrne, who shortly thereafter returned to Marvel to take over the writing of the Star Brand comic itself."
- "John Byrne, at the prompting of New Universe editor Howard Mackie (a close friend of Byrne's),[6][9] took over both the writing and breakdowns with issue #11. Shortly after, a meeting between Byrne, Mackie, and DP 7 writer Mark Gruenwald was held to come up with a plot device to raise interest in the New Universe. The idea of the Star Brand destroying Pittsburgh was devised at this meeting[9] and implemented in The Star Brand #12. Following this issue, Ken Connell was reduced to a supporting character, and the series became a more generalized account of the effects of the Star Brand on humankind. The series was cancelled with issue #19."
- So it was pivotal to a new line of comics created by Jim Shooter, survived the firing of Shooter and that collapse of that line of comics to reappeared under multiple creative teams in multiple fictional universes, and was the lynchpin of the creative vision of at least one of them. It also had sufficient impact to be worth parodying. In addition and not quoted there's plenty of material on other appearances across multiple titles involving dozens of creators, muddled with a lot of in universe material but still significant. Absolutely seems a worthy basis of an article to me.
Artw (
talk) 16:05, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks. Now I think this can be rescued, but, sigh, work is needed. I think until the work is done, some sort of copyedit templates should remain in the article. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:38, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
- Material related to the development, publication history and reception:
- Maybe we are looking at different articles. "Prior to the AfD the article already had significant material on the reception". Huh. Do quote that material.
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 15:28, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- The existence of this entity is somthing you should already no from basic
WP:BEFORE. Prior to the AfD the article already had significant material on the reception and publication history of the character/title, which you should know from reading the article. Consolidating some of that in a reception section may make that clearer but the article remains within
WP:N regardless since significant coverage in reliable sources is present.
Artw (
talk) 13:27, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- You are proving the existence of this entity, but not it's notability. Please let us know when you've written a reception section.
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
reply here 09:57, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Added some refs and removed the notability tag. A lot more refs still need to be added to bolster the various appearances and publication history but that does not seem like it would be too hard, there's a lot out there.
Artw (
talk) 18:57, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Delete - Totally unencyclopedic article (see WP:FANCRUFT). The argument that the piece requires to be renamed is also very sound (if this is kept, a request move procedure will be necessary). - GizzyCatBella 🍁 14:17, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Keep - Let this page stay. We have had different incarnations of Star Brand in Marvel Comics and it should be worth mentioning on this website somewhere. Plus, @ Artw: is right about his claims. -- Rtkat3 ( talk) 00:47, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America 1000 11:46, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
- Keep with a re-focus on the Star Brand comic. This title has received in-depth coverage as part of the New Universe experiment in books like Modern Masters: John Romita Jr, Conversations: Jim Shooter, and in online sources like Ghosts of Comics Past. Argento Surfer ( talk) 18:18, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
- Keep. Convinced by Argento Surfer and Artw. // Julle ( talk) 11:01, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
- Keep per arguments above; failing that, at worst, it could be merged to New Universe. BOZ ( talk) 12:48, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
- One other suggestion should the keeps fail would be redirecting the article to
List of Marvel Comics characters: S. Right? --
Rtkat3 (
talk) 19:18, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
- Certainly. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:50, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
- One other suggestion should the keeps fail would be redirecting the article to
List of Marvel Comics characters: S. Right? --
Rtkat3 (
talk) 19:18, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.