The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Ignoring the SPAs that popped up during this debate, it appears that this does not meet NBOX. Randykitty ( talk) 14:46, 4 January 2015 (UTC) reply

Ryan Martin (boxer)

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Ryan Martin (boxer) (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)

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Non-notable boxer because he fails WP:NBOX. Junior championships don't show notability. Mdtemp ( talk) 15:25, 15 December 2014 (UTC) reply

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions. Peter Rehse ( talk) 15:44, 15 December 2014 (UTC) reply

• Delete I was hoping more could be added here to show notability. It was credibly written by what looks to be a first time editor but the subject is clearly a decent size fish in a small pond - does not meet WP:NBOX. Peter Rehse ( talk) 15:44, 15 December 2014 (UTC) reply
• Delete Martin may be a rising star, but it seems like a case of TOOSOON. Primefac ( talk) 15:52, 15 December 2014 (UTC) reply

Please consider the following notes before deletion:

Per the notability requirements one would have: fought, as an amateur, in the final of a national amateur championship for an International Boxing Association/Association Internationale de Boxe Amateur (AIBA) affiliated and World Amateur Boxing Championship medal winning country (for Men see Medal table (1974 - present), or have represented their AIBA affiliated country in a continental (or higher) tournament.

The under-19 is a mens NATIONAL tournament and is sanctioned by USA Boxing. USA Boxing, Is the national governing body for Olympic-style boxing, is the United States' member organization of the International Amateur Boxing Association (AIBA) and a member of the United States Olympic Committee (USOC). It is responsible for the selection and management of the United States Olympic Boxing Team and AIBA. ^[1]

Martin won the GOLD MEDAL at such National Championship. He also was selected for his AIBA Affiliated country (USA) in a continental/World tournament--AIBA Youth World Championships comprised of a 105 countries. ^[2]

As a professional boxing manager with over 40 years of experience I would be open to create a page specifically for the U-19 National Championships and Youth World Games. These tournaments are specifically for the country's elite athletes and are the gateway to the sports World Champions, Olympic Medalist and some of the best prizefighters in the world.

Ryan Martin shows notability in all areas of the sport, He's won a total of 12 National Championships and has competed all over the world for team USA. Also, he's ranked 17 in his weight division as a professional ^[3] and has just recently signed professional w/ 50 Cent in September of 2013.

He's not ranked by any major organization or media outlet. Boxrec ranks him 17th among U.S. lightweights--hardly a clear indicator of notability. If anything, it shows he is not among the top lightweights who are adults. Papaursa ( talk) 03:56, 17 December 2014 (UTC) reply

Let's make a rational decision and have discussions before this page isn't considered notable and selected for deletion. C.dunkin ( talk) 16:27, 15 December 2014 (UTC) reply

• Delete Junior championships have never been considered to show notability. 204.126.132.231 ( talk) 16:32, 15 December 2014 (UTC) reply

Comment There is good reason for this. Junior championships whether boxing or karate or ..... never have the same rigor in selection/participation as adult. Subject is now competing as an adult (with a no Loss record). If he is any good he should meet WP:NBOX soon and it can be recreated - if not well almost competing in the olympics does not really inspire. Peter Rehse ( talk) 16:36, 15 December 2014 (UTC) reply

• Keep Martin meets #4 Notability Requirement #4 One would have: "fought, as an amateur, in the final of a national amateur championship for an International Boxing Association/Association Internationale de Boxe Amateur (AIBA) affiliated and World Amateur Boxing Championship medal winning country (for Men see Medal table (1974 - present), or have represented their AIBA affiliated country in a continental (or higher) tournament". Martin was selected to represent Team USA at the [ Youth World Championships] by winning a gold medal at a USA Boxing National Championships (2010)

Here's the list provided by AIBA as a sanctioned World Amateur Boxing Championship Tournament: ^[4]

• Olympic Games
• Youth Olympic Games
• World Boxing Championships
• Womens World Boxing Championships
• AIBA Youth World Boxing Championships
• AIBA Junior World Boxing Championhips
• Commonwealth Games

C.dunkin ( talk) 17:53, 15 December 2014 (UTC) reply

• Delete. @ C.dunkin, "in the final of". The USA didnt even get to the tournament, whether he was selected or not, because of the Icelandic volcanic thingy, so unfortunately he doesnt meet criteria yet. He may, if he continues his progress, but unfortunately not at the moment. Murry1975 ( talk) 18:50, 15 December 2014 (UTC) reply

"He competed in the finals, he won the gold medal, at the National Championship for his affiliated AIBA (USA), PER WP:NBOX " One would have: "fought, as an amateur, in the final of a national amateur championship..." Seems like the big dispute is that U-19 is a junior tournament, however thats not the case. Per USA Boxing's rulebook 15-16 year olds are "Junior boxers. the U-19 is for the top 17-18 year old men. Once they reach 19 years old, then they move into Senior division. Boxer also meets general notability. Take some time and go through all the sources I provided. Feel free to add some more, I'm still gathering more as we speak. C.dunkin ( talk) 06:14, 26 December 2014 (UTC) reply

Keep the USA national tournament is sanctioned and reconfinzed by AIBA as a World Qualifying Tournament. Mr. Martin won GOLD here. He didn't only make it to the final of that event. He was crowned champion. Also, he was the selected lightweight to represent his country at the World Championships. : C.dunkin ( talk) 17:53, 15 December 2014 (UTC) reply

FYI--Someone struck your second keep vote because, while you can comment all you want, you can only vote once. Papaursa ( talk) 04:06, 16 December 2014 (UTC) reply

• Keep AIBA champion and USA National champion. Antonio Legas Martin ( digalo) 22:25, 15 December, 2014 (UTC)

He was never an international champion. He was a national champion as a junior, not as an adult. There's a big difference. Papaursa ( talk) 04:06, 16 December 2014 (UTC) reply

He was an international competitor for his AIBA country (USA). Indeed he was a national champion as a junior. He was also an open division mens champion at the U-19 which is a national tournament (ages 17-19). C.dunkin ( talk) 05:04, 16 December 2014 (UTC) reply

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Tennessee-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 01:18, 16 December 2014 (UTC) reply

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 01:18, 16 December 2014 (UTC) reply

• Delete Doesn't meet WP:NBOX since, to my knowledge, junior events have never been considered sufficient for notability in any sport. That's never been considered as competing at the highest level of any sport. Papaursa ( talk) 04:06, 16 December 2014 (UTC) reply

Junior or not junior They are sanctioned AIBA and USA boxing events. if your 15, 16, 17 ,18 or etc., those champions are the best in their country/world for winning such. and They are competing at the highest level their age allows them to. AGE doesn't determine notability. C.dunkin ( talk) 05:04, 16 December 2014 (UTC) reply

An 8 year old karate yellow belt competes at the highest level he's allowed to, but he's not notable either. Being the best 85 year old boxer or swimmer or whatever also doesn't make someone automatically notable. The criteria is about competing at the highest level--that means no restrictions on who can compete. WP is full of deleted articles on junior athletes in a variety of sports because they weren't considered notable. Even junior Olympic champions have been deleted and he has never reached that level. Papaursa ( talk) 05:11, 16 December 2014 (UTC) reply

• Keep Per #4 Notability Requirement. Tony the Marine ( talk) 16:53, 16 December 2014 (UTC) reply
• Comment Considering how many times this has been discussed at the various talk sports projects (including NSPORTS), none of which have determined that junior events count for notability, I am surprised at how many people want to create their own guidelines. Papaursa ( talk) 03:56, 17 December 2014 (UTC) reply
• Keep - young but seems to meet #4 Notability Requirement as stated above. In ictu oculi ( talk) 04:43, 17 December 2014 (UTC) reply
• Keep --boxer meets WP: NBOX. U-19 Natl. Gold Medalist. Not a junior tournament. It's designed for the best 18-19 year olds in their affiliated country to prepare them for Olympic Scoring. Also, we are becoming too wrapped in this. Let's refer to WP: COMMON. Kid seems highly touted and is still continuing career with success, receiving significant coverage in his sport. (Inside ring and outside). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mattlonguk ( talk • contribs) 19 December 2014 15:54

- Mattlonguk ( talk• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Delete - might be an 'up and coming' new professional boxer, but fails to meet any of the guidelines for notability. WP:GNG failed because there are insufficient examples of significant coverage in independent reliable sources. Despite what other voters have said, #4 of boxing guidelines is not met. Junior competitions do not carry anything like the notability of seniors, and in this case you definitely can't count a competition where the team did not even get a chance to turn up to the competition. -- _nonsense ferret 19:14, 19 December 2014 (UTC) reply
• Delete I don't understand why so many people want to ignore the numerous precedents that junior athletes are not automatically notable. He doesn't meet WP:NBOX or WP:GNG. I don't see how people decide that an "under 19" tournament is not for juniors, when it is clearly not an adult tournament or at the highest level. Jakejr ( talk) 23:56, 21 December 2014 (UTC) reply

Per USA Boxing Competiton Rule Handbook "2.1 Classification of Boxers, 2.1.4 between the ages of 15 to 16 are categorized as Junior Boxers, 2.1.1 between the ages of 17-18 are categorized as Youth Boxers. 2.1.3 between the ages of 19-40 are considered Seniors ^[5] Ryan Meets WP:NBOX the U-19 is created for the top 17-18 year olds after they move out of the junior division. Under 19 is an open division tournament. (17-18 yrs old) USA Boxings junior tournaments are (Ages 15-16). I would agree that Jr. tournaments shouldn't make people Automatically notable. However, in Ryan's case how much more elite could the kid get? At 18 years old (2010) he was the number 1 lightweight in his weight class for boxers aged 17-18 (you can't even compete in senior tournaments if your not 19) then he's one of the few men to make it to the Olympic Qualifier in 2011 to box off for the Olympic spot, loosing to the Olympic Alternate Robert Easter. Hence, being recruited by the top promotional companies and signing a multi year deal with notable 50 Cent. dubbed a Blue-Chip prospect by many publications and being featured on MTV.Com, and Ring Magazine (the bible of boxing). in addition to the plethora of stories on various boxing platforms, fighting on the ESPN network and the undercards of HBO and Showtime. Ryan should meet WP:GNG Also WP:NBOX should be revised if most editors aren't happy or confused why others believe Ryan Martin meets that criteria. C.dunkin ( talk) 02:11, 22 December 2014 (UTC) reply

• Delete Trying out for an Olympic team does not make someone notable, nor does being ranked as the top 18 year old. Junior events have never been accepted as equivalent to adult events and he has not yet done anything that allows him to meet anything listed at WP:NBOX. Astudent0 ( talk) 19:39, 23 December 2014 (UTC) reply

• Keep Using Common Sense Is Better Than Having Rules For Everything. This young professional athlete will prevail past all the negativity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Caseslab ( talk • contribs) 01:36, 24 December 2014 (UTC) reply

— Caseslab ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Using rules generated by consensus is superior to people creating their own rules based on WP:ILIKEIT--especially when te new criteria are being generated by new SPAs. Jakejr ( talk) 06:58, 25 December 2014 (UTC) reply
• ""Keep"" - meets General notability requirement and notability #4 boxer has received significant coverage in his sport and coverage is still ongoing... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Carla Ja ( talk • contribs) 21:40, 24 December 2014 (UTC) reply

— Carla Ja ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.
  1. Bush, Ron (2013-09-07). "Chattanooga boxer Ryan Martin to begin pro boxing". Chattanooga Times Free Press. Archived from the original on 2014-12-26. Retrieved 2014-12-26.

     The article notes:

     After more than 200 amateur fights and 12 national championships under various labels, Chattanooga boxer Ryan Martin has gone pro. And he's hooked up with someone whose very name means coin.

     Martin, most recently a Golden Gloves 132- and 141-pound open participant, is set to make his professional debut in the 135-pound lightweight class on Sept. 16 at the Resorts World Casino in New York City. He has a promotional deal with SMS Promotions, owned by rapper 50 Cent.

  2. Wiedmer, Mark (2014-04-18). "Wiedmer: Martin on verge of boxing stardom". Chattanooga Times Free Press. Archived from the original on 2014-12-26. Retrieved 2014-12-26.

     The article notes:

     Ryan Martin was pushing a lawnmower around a Hixson front yard last September, trying to put an extra $20 in his pocket, when his cell phone rang.

     "It was [the rapper] 50 Cent and Tim [VanNewhouse]," he said. "They wanted me to box for them full time. I couldn't believe it."

     Assuming "Blue Chip" Martin improves to 5-0 following tonight's lightweight bout against Misael Chacon in Monroeville, Pa., the whole country could believe in him come July 2. That's when ESPN would televise a bout including Martin on its "Wednesday Night Fight" show.

  3. Shahen, Paul (2014-05-16). "Chattanooga's Ryan Martin featured in 50 Cent's new music video". WRCB. Archived from the original on 2014-12-26. Retrieved 2014-12-26.

     The article notes:

     Pro boxer Ryan Martin goes from the ring to the big screen in 50 Cent's newest music video. The song is conveniently named "Winners Circle" and it makes sense because since Martin turned pro he's spent a lot of time in the winners circle.

     Martin signed with 50 Cent's boxing label SMS Promotions last year. The former West Side Boxer in Chattanooga is off to a 5-0 pro start with three knockouts.

  4. Bush, Ron (2014-11-08). "Central grad Martin goes for 9-0 as pro boxer". Chattanooga Times Free Press. Archived from the original on 2014-12-26. Retrieved 2014-12-26.

     The article notes:

     From his residence in a suburb of Cleveland, Ohio, Ryan Martin said it was "awesome" that Central High School was in the state football playoffs and had a winning record this year.

     The Purple Pounders' record is not nearly as impressive as the 21-year-old Central graduate's.

     He's 8-0 as a professional lightweight boxer in less than 14 months of action. He tries this evening to go to 9-0 -- 7-0 in 2014. But Martin, a protege of rapper 50 Cent through SMS Promotions, is fighting his toughest opponent to date in his most prestigious setting.

  There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Ryan Martin to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".

  Cunard ( talk) 05:17, 26 December 2014 (UTC) reply

We should find more articles and sources to include in discussion Boxexpo2015 ( talk) 23:45, 2 January 2015 (UTC) reply

• This debate in a nutshell has clearly been whether or not the boxers Gold Medal performance at the U-19 National Championship( 2010) was in the Junior division. Which per USA Boxing rule book Junior Championships are for ages 15-16. The U-19 is for elite men ages 17-18 Years old. Hence, meeting WP:NBOX Boxer has received multiple features/stories and mentions in a plethora of reliable independent sources in his sport. Boxer has won significant awards. Including, but not limited to 12 National Championships. Also, After reviewing sources provided on the boxers page it should be clear that boxer meets WP:GNG

NOTES: WP:NBOX should be revised if it's believed Ryan doesn't meet this criteria. Just to be clear it reads "fought, as an amateur, in the final of a national amateur championship for an AIBA affiliated and World Amateur Boxing Championship medal winning country (for Men see Medal table (1974 - present), or have represented their AIBA affiliated country in a continental (or higher) tournament". Ryan hasn't only won an National Championship for his AIBA, his done it 12x including a Silver Medal at the 2009 Junior Olympics and a Gold Medal at the mens 2010 U-19 Natl. Championships. including being selected to represent Team USA in International competition/tournaments. Success still hasn't stopped, and his media coverage has been constant and still continuing... C.dunkin ( talk) 17:06, 26 December 2014 (UTC) reply

• Comment I believe we have agreement--it boils down to whether or not you believe a junior/youth competitor is notable if they meet the same conditions as an adult/senior competitor. I believe there is ample precedent to show they've not been considered that in the past. This has been discussed several times at WP:NSPORT and never have things like the Youth Olympics been agreed upon as showing sufficient notability. The most recent discussion I found was at Wikipedia talk:Notability (sports)/Archive 13#Youth_Olympics. I also found AFD discussions of martial artists who won medals at the Youth Olympics--they were also deleted (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Antonia Katheder and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Davit Ghazaryan). Since Martin didn't even compete at the Youth Olympics, much less win a medal, I don't believe he meets WP:NBOX. Jakejr ( talk) 02:58, 28 December 2014 (UTC) reply

The subjects you are referring to are martial artist, with only one or two sources of which weren't even reliable, with hardly no professional success. C.dunkin ( talk) 07:00, 28 December 2014 (UTC) reply

Boxing is a martial art and their Youth Olympic medals were documented. Martin's professional career does not meet WP:NBOX so claiming that's what makes him notable is wrong. Jakejr ( talk) 14:41, 28 December 2014 (UTC) reply

Martin won a medal at the National Jr. Olympics too. I'm not claiming he's notable for that reason. He's continued to win significant awards since that time in his life and has consistantely received coverage in his sport, Hence, being recruited by the sports biggest promoters to sign professional. C.dunkin ( talk) 20:23, 28 December 2014 (UTC) reply

The fighters I mentioned won Youth Olympic titles, not national Youth Olympic events. That's a big difference, yet that was still determined to be insufficient to show notability. Jakejr ( talk) 21:48, 30 December 2014 (UTC) reply

• Keep boxer meets WP:GNG @ jakejr I've made few edits to boxing as I don't follow it that closely, but I'm very familiar with music and 50 Cent. It so happens that 50 Cent is his promoter and there is sufficient sources detailing Ryan's achievements/story. I'm confident that he meets WP:GNG — Preceding unsigned comment added by Caseslab ( talk • contribs) 07:01, 28 December 2014 (UTC) reply

As a new user you should become familiar with a few Wikipedia rules. Please sign your posts by putting 4 tildes after each one. You are also only allowed to vote once per discussion which is why I crossed out your last vote. You can comment as many times as you want, but only vote once. Finally, WP:NOTINHERITED says that notability is not inherited by being connected to famous people, so Martin can't gain notability from his manager or promoter. Jakejr ( talk) 14:38, 28 December 2014 (UTC) reply

• Comment Evidence shows that the boxer has gained sufficient independent coverage and recognition. Please see examples of evidence from reliable sources included on the boxers page and some examples below:

The article notes:

From a young age Ryan Martin was highly touted. The Ohio resident was dubbed 'Kid London' by Jermain Taylor who saw Martin's skills first hand at the Silver Gloves. When Martin failed to make the USA team for the 2012 Olympics he decided to make the switch to the professional game.

The article notes:

Like many young fighters entering the sport, Martin chose to align himself with a promoter he felt could help guide his career. His manager VanNewhouse took him to meetings with various promoters but they ultimately went with 50 Cent as they felt he could afford them exposure and opportunities no one else could provide.

The article notes:

The young Lightweight from Chattanooga, TN is a promising star and is also being treated as such. He already has a strong team behind him as manager Tim VanNewhouse made it a point from the beginning to have Martin’s full focus on boxing and nothing else.

he is getting exposure and great opportunities. Martin is fresh off his fourth career victory just a couple weeks back and already he’s set to be part of Mike Tyson’s promotional debut on Showtime this Friday night.

Martin is already signed to his own promoter SMS Promotions which is headed by rap star and businessman 50 Cent but being part of Iron Mike Promotions inaugural event is something special for him.

There is sufficient coverage for boxer to meet WP:GNG if we can't determine he meets WP:NBOX. C.dunkin ( talk) 20:23, 28 December 2014 (UTC) reply

Consider adding more sources, not sure how you incorporate them into the page, as it seems well written. Use Chattanooga in your search efforts, there's a bit there. Boxexpo2015 ( talk) 02:07, 3 January 2015 (UTC) reply

Anyone interested in nominating this page should spend more time examining the sources-- this would easily show that they are sufficient.

• I would say he lacks the significant independent coverage in reliable sources required to meet WP:GNG. These articles mentioned tend to be fight results or press releases for upcoming bouts (or be on websites of dubious reliability). As far as notability goes, I believe it's worth noting that Martin and Semajay Thomas were born in the same year, but Thomas won the national amateur championship while Martin won an age group title. It wasn't Martin's age that prevented him from fighting for the true U.S. amateur title and thus competing at the highest level. Jakejr ( talk) 21:48, 30 December 2014 (UTC) reply

Dubious Reliability? Theres not one source on there of such! And only one of the articles could be considered a press release, which was put out by Frigo Revolution-wear announcing their two year branding deal with Ryan Martin. Dubious sources/websites? that is extremely incorrect. C.dunkin ( talk) 11:16, 31 December 2014 (UTC) reply

I know Twitter and PRNNEWS are not reliable sources and I don't know about the reliability of some of the boxing websites. Jakejr ( talk)

Twitter is only used to identify a tweet by a notable boxing analyst. The PRNNEWS source was just identifying him in the release. Normally this is how most deals are announced via national news wire. Per WP:PAGEDECIDE & WP:N please consider being an expert of Boxing and it's reliable sources before nominating Ryan's page for deletion. This page should remain active as it's meets notability WP:N, WP:V and has reliable sources WP:RS. also please note that boxingscene is the largest and one of the most trusted sites for boxing news. C.dunkin ( talk) 00:34, 4 January 2015 (UTC) reply

• delete I don't think he meets the notability standards listed for boxers because junior achievements are not usually considered notable and he hasn't yet met any of the standards as an adult. I also don't think he quite meets the coverage requirements of WP:GNG. I'm a new editor, but long time user, so I thought I'd try to test my knowledge at some deletion debates. 75.150.214.113 ( talk) 18:26, 2 January 2015 (UTC)— User:75.150.214.113 ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. reply
• Young fighters who fight on HBO, ESPN, Showtime Undercard/Events and are recruited by the sports leading promoters and managers certainly should meet WP:GNG if referring to boxing. This athletes story and achievements have been documented since he was 8 years old. Theres close to 20 reliable sources on the page. Please help improve it if you think it needs any more. I'm sure you will find others. C.dunkin ( talk) 00:44, 4 January 2015 (UTC) reply

Keep per the significant coverage in boxing sport. Athlete meets WP:GNG Boxexpo2015 ( talk) 23:13, 2 January 2015 (UTC) — Boxexpo2015 ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. reply

References

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.