- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Eddie891 Talk Work 13:53, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
Municipal Council of Istanbul
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- Municipal Council of Istanbul ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
The Istanbul Municipal Council lacks the notability/depth that would make it deserving of its own page. The previous deletion nomination was withdrawn on the basis that the council was the administrative body of the largest city in Europe, and thus warranted an article. It should be said however, that Municipal Councils in Turkey are extremely different to the examples given in that proposal, like the New York City Council, which has legislative authority unlike Municipal Councils in Turkey. Moreover, the council is not in the news daily or every two days as mentioned in the comment, as the council only has binding authority on a small range of issues, nowhere controversial enough to make headlines on the daily.
I do not think a council whose main purpose is approving zoning needs its own article. In addition to this, there are 81 provinces and 923 districts in Turkey, all of which have their own councils. There is no need for 1000 articles on 1000 councils that do the same thing. The best solution available is the creation of a general article about municipal councils in Turkey, and details about each city's own council being added to its Administration subsection. Gwro ( talk) 13:49, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Politics and Turkey. Gwro ( talk) 13:49, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
Weak delete. I did find this, which could perhaps be considered secondary coverage, although all other mentions in English language sources are extremely brief and definitely not enough to establish notability. It's probably worth noting that even the Turkish version of this article relies entirely on a primary source. An anonymous username, not my real name 15:10, 11 February 2023 (UTC)- Keep thanks to the new sources uncovered. An anonymous username, not my real name 20:28, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Comment Thanks for pointing out the Turkish article, no idea how I missed that. Did take a look at the article, it seems they used the Municipality website as the source, no foul play though. I was more wanting to mention precedent in the English Wikipedia, It's basically the norm in the English Wikipedia to roll up municipalities, governorships and any other administrative organs of Turkish cities into the Administration section of the article. The way I see it, there isn't really a reason to make an exception for one random council. And please do correct me if I'm wrong but I cannot find another instance where there's a seperate article for the Municipality/Governorship/Municipal Council of any Turkish city on the English Wikipedia. I feel like the solutions to this are either rolling up this article into the Administration section of the Istanbul article as is the norm on the English-language Wikipedia, or the creation of a new article for the Istanbul Municipality (and likely other Turkish cities) to take the place of most of the Administration section(s) of the article(s). Gwro ( talk) 16:09, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Keep The council itself is, in fact, pretty frequently on national newspapers. I'm not talking about small mentions, but entire articles on the debates that take place there:
[1],
[2],
[3],
[4],
[5],
[6],
[7] + more. It's actually more widely known as "İBB meclisi" in sources. Add in a few journal articles about its workings and comparisons to other cities (
[8],
[9]) and notability is clear. I do however agree that we miss an article about the
municipality itself here.
~Styyx
Talk? 16:18, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Comment Thanks for the newspaper sources! Again, no idea how I missed those. I feel the need to add however, that the main argument wasn't that it was never in the news, but that it wasn't important enough to warrant an article. Adding to that, it only ever is on the news once every month, lining up with how frequently it meets. In keeping with that logic, there should also be an article on the UKOME (Transport Coordination Center), who make just as influential decisions also once a month. The second point I wanted to mention is the point of precedent, Turkish city government not being on seperate articles is the norm for the English Wikipedia, and I don't see any reason why that's creating an issue. Is an exception for the Istanbul Council really necessary? If we decide separate articles are really the way to go, it wouldn't achieve much else other than clutter in my opinion. 5 articles for every Turkish province would be necessary: Province, city, municipality, governorship, and municipal council. The same detail and depth could also be achieved by keeping the status quo and just adding more detail to the "Administration" sections of the articles without causing more clutter, as is currently the de factor norm. This article is an (in my opinion) unnecessary exception to the norm. Gwro ( talk) 16:34, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- We don't keep or delete articles based on their importance, but rather their notability, which is generally shown with sources. For other city councils of Turkey, they are all significantly less in news. For example, a quick look at the one of Konya shows no national newspapers at all and only some mentions in local ones. Similar case for Izmir. Only the council of Ankara comes somewhat close (but still not near Istanbul). So based on that, if those municipalities got their own article, splitting the council alone wouldn't make sense. But Istanbul is different here per the sources. ~Styyx Talk? 16:49, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Keep per the sources found by Styx. Istanbul is the largest city in Europe. Its municipal council has authority over more people than many countries. Mccapra ( talk) 17:35, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Keep. We don't need articles on 1,000 councils any time soon, but this is Istanbul. --Doncram ( talk, contribs) 22:01, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Keep Istanbul#Administration says "The Municipal Council is responsible for citywide issues, including managing the budget, maintaining civic infrastructure, and overseeing museums and major cultural centers." This seems like more than "approving zoning", but a redirect there could be an ATD. Perhaps a better ATD would be blending this article and that section into a Government of Istanbul page, a la Government of New York City that discusses List of mayors of Istanbul another administrative topics. Reywas92 Talk 02:49, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
- Keep: Has reliable sources to justify an article. -- StarryNightSky11 ☎ 04:19, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
- Keep to borrow a phrase, there's binders full of relevant, peer-review, academic literature; a selection from a 10 minute search. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6]
References
- ^ Demiralp, Seda; Balta, Evren (2 January 2021). "Defeating Populists: The Case of 2019 Istanbul Elections". South European Society and Politics. 26 (1): 1–26. doi: 10.1080/13608746.2021.1923639.
- ^ Bezmez, Dikmen (December 2008). "The Politics of Urban Waterfront Regeneration: The Case of Haliç (the Golden Horn), Istanbul". International Journal of Urban and Regional Research. 32 (4): 815–840. doi: 10.1111/j.1468-2427.2008.00825.x.
- ^ Erkip, Feyzan (October 2000). "Global transformations versus local dynamics in Istanbul". Cities. 17 (5): 371–377. doi: 10.1016/S0264-2751(00)00033-0.
- ^ Rosenthal, Steven (April 1980). "Foreigners and Municipal Reform in Istanbul: 1855–1865". International Journal of Middle East Studies. 11 (2): 227–245. doi: 10.1017/S0020743800054404.
- ^ Uluçay, Dilek Melike; Melek, Gizem (28 November 2021). "Self-presentation strategies and the visual framing of political leaders on Instagram: evidence from the eventful 2019 Istanbul mayoral elections". Visual Communication: 147035722110575. doi: 10.1177/14703572211057595.
- ^ Rosenthal, Steven (May 1980). "Urban elites and the foundation of municipalities in Alexandria and Istanbul". Middle Eastern Studies. 16 (2): 125–133. doi: 10.1080/00263208008700439.
- WP:SNOW close. Regards, -- Goldsztajn ( talk) 08:42, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
- Keep based on the large amount of significant coverage, if the coverage is this extensive in English I can't imagine how extensive it must bw in Turkish. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 03:20, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Eddie891 Talk Work 13:53, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
Municipal Council of Istanbul
AfDs for this article:
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Municipal Council of Istanbul ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
The Istanbul Municipal Council lacks the notability/depth that would make it deserving of its own page. The previous deletion nomination was withdrawn on the basis that the council was the administrative body of the largest city in Europe, and thus warranted an article. It should be said however, that Municipal Councils in Turkey are extremely different to the examples given in that proposal, like the New York City Council, which has legislative authority unlike Municipal Councils in Turkey. Moreover, the council is not in the news daily or every two days as mentioned in the comment, as the council only has binding authority on a small range of issues, nowhere controversial enough to make headlines on the daily.
I do not think a council whose main purpose is approving zoning needs its own article. In addition to this, there are 81 provinces and 923 districts in Turkey, all of which have their own councils. There is no need for 1000 articles on 1000 councils that do the same thing. The best solution available is the creation of a general article about municipal councils in Turkey, and details about each city's own council being added to its Administration subsection. Gwro ( talk) 13:49, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Politics and Turkey. Gwro ( talk) 13:49, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
Weak delete. I did find this, which could perhaps be considered secondary coverage, although all other mentions in English language sources are extremely brief and definitely not enough to establish notability. It's probably worth noting that even the Turkish version of this article relies entirely on a primary source. An anonymous username, not my real name 15:10, 11 February 2023 (UTC)- Keep thanks to the new sources uncovered. An anonymous username, not my real name 20:28, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Comment Thanks for pointing out the Turkish article, no idea how I missed that. Did take a look at the article, it seems they used the Municipality website as the source, no foul play though. I was more wanting to mention precedent in the English Wikipedia, It's basically the norm in the English Wikipedia to roll up municipalities, governorships and any other administrative organs of Turkish cities into the Administration section of the article. The way I see it, there isn't really a reason to make an exception for one random council. And please do correct me if I'm wrong but I cannot find another instance where there's a seperate article for the Municipality/Governorship/Municipal Council of any Turkish city on the English Wikipedia. I feel like the solutions to this are either rolling up this article into the Administration section of the Istanbul article as is the norm on the English-language Wikipedia, or the creation of a new article for the Istanbul Municipality (and likely other Turkish cities) to take the place of most of the Administration section(s) of the article(s). Gwro ( talk) 16:09, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Keep The council itself is, in fact, pretty frequently on national newspapers. I'm not talking about small mentions, but entire articles on the debates that take place there:
[1],
[2],
[3],
[4],
[5],
[6],
[7] + more. It's actually more widely known as "İBB meclisi" in sources. Add in a few journal articles about its workings and comparisons to other cities (
[8],
[9]) and notability is clear. I do however agree that we miss an article about the
municipality itself here.
~Styyx
Talk? 16:18, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Comment Thanks for the newspaper sources! Again, no idea how I missed those. I feel the need to add however, that the main argument wasn't that it was never in the news, but that it wasn't important enough to warrant an article. Adding to that, it only ever is on the news once every month, lining up with how frequently it meets. In keeping with that logic, there should also be an article on the UKOME (Transport Coordination Center), who make just as influential decisions also once a month. The second point I wanted to mention is the point of precedent, Turkish city government not being on seperate articles is the norm for the English Wikipedia, and I don't see any reason why that's creating an issue. Is an exception for the Istanbul Council really necessary? If we decide separate articles are really the way to go, it wouldn't achieve much else other than clutter in my opinion. 5 articles for every Turkish province would be necessary: Province, city, municipality, governorship, and municipal council. The same detail and depth could also be achieved by keeping the status quo and just adding more detail to the "Administration" sections of the articles without causing more clutter, as is currently the de factor norm. This article is an (in my opinion) unnecessary exception to the norm. Gwro ( talk) 16:34, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- We don't keep or delete articles based on their importance, but rather their notability, which is generally shown with sources. For other city councils of Turkey, they are all significantly less in news. For example, a quick look at the one of Konya shows no national newspapers at all and only some mentions in local ones. Similar case for Izmir. Only the council of Ankara comes somewhat close (but still not near Istanbul). So based on that, if those municipalities got their own article, splitting the council alone wouldn't make sense. But Istanbul is different here per the sources. ~Styyx Talk? 16:49, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Keep per the sources found by Styx. Istanbul is the largest city in Europe. Its municipal council has authority over more people than many countries. Mccapra ( talk) 17:35, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Keep. We don't need articles on 1,000 councils any time soon, but this is Istanbul. --Doncram ( talk, contribs) 22:01, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Keep Istanbul#Administration says "The Municipal Council is responsible for citywide issues, including managing the budget, maintaining civic infrastructure, and overseeing museums and major cultural centers." This seems like more than "approving zoning", but a redirect there could be an ATD. Perhaps a better ATD would be blending this article and that section into a Government of Istanbul page, a la Government of New York City that discusses List of mayors of Istanbul another administrative topics. Reywas92 Talk 02:49, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
- Keep: Has reliable sources to justify an article. -- StarryNightSky11 ☎ 04:19, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
- Keep to borrow a phrase, there's binders full of relevant, peer-review, academic literature; a selection from a 10 minute search. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6]
References
- ^ Demiralp, Seda; Balta, Evren (2 January 2021). "Defeating Populists: The Case of 2019 Istanbul Elections". South European Society and Politics. 26 (1): 1–26. doi: 10.1080/13608746.2021.1923639.
- ^ Bezmez, Dikmen (December 2008). "The Politics of Urban Waterfront Regeneration: The Case of Haliç (the Golden Horn), Istanbul". International Journal of Urban and Regional Research. 32 (4): 815–840. doi: 10.1111/j.1468-2427.2008.00825.x.
- ^ Erkip, Feyzan (October 2000). "Global transformations versus local dynamics in Istanbul". Cities. 17 (5): 371–377. doi: 10.1016/S0264-2751(00)00033-0.
- ^ Rosenthal, Steven (April 1980). "Foreigners and Municipal Reform in Istanbul: 1855–1865". International Journal of Middle East Studies. 11 (2): 227–245. doi: 10.1017/S0020743800054404.
- ^ Uluçay, Dilek Melike; Melek, Gizem (28 November 2021). "Self-presentation strategies and the visual framing of political leaders on Instagram: evidence from the eventful 2019 Istanbul mayoral elections". Visual Communication: 147035722110575. doi: 10.1177/14703572211057595.
- ^ Rosenthal, Steven (May 1980). "Urban elites and the foundation of municipalities in Alexandria and Istanbul". Middle Eastern Studies. 16 (2): 125–133. doi: 10.1080/00263208008700439.
- WP:SNOW close. Regards, -- Goldsztajn ( talk) 08:42, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
- Keep based on the large amount of significant coverage, if the coverage is this extensive in English I can't imagine how extensive it must bw in Turkish. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 03:20, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.