- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Questions about the copyright status are one issue, but none of the keep !votes are (including G Moore's accidental? double vote) are policy based or refute the arguments made to delete. While there could be an article with this topic, we're brought back to the copyvio situation. Star Mississippi 03:46, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
List of hospitals in Algeria
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- List of hospitals in Algeria ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
The article is a complete mess, only like 4 of the entries are blue linked, and the rest appear to be referenced mainly (or only) to primary sources, and there's zero evidence the hospitals are discussed anywhere reliable as a group or set. Also, going by the talk page the names of the hospitals and their coordinates largely come from Google Maps, which as far as I'm aware doesn't have a license that is compatible with Wikimedia. Really the article should be deleted on that alone, but I thought I'd send it through AfD anyway. That said, if anyone wants to try and have the article speedy deleted because of the Copyvio then be my guest. Adamant1 ( talk) 12:26, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Lists and Algeria. Shellwood ( talk) 12:41, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
- Keep There are 143 different sources for this list. Someone else started this article and I tried to clean it up and add sourcing. I would have put the information in a single table for sorting, but stuck with the original format. It is organized by Province, like many of the existing Lists of hospitals in County. I kept the Province summaries because it gave relevance to the number of hospitals in the Province. , which exists for every country. This article fits within the guidelines of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Hospitals and is a top priority. Using Google Earth or Google Maps is a fair use to obtain coordinates, as far as I known. References such as news reports and foreign embassy lists are tied to individual hospitals when they exist. Google is used throughout Wikipedia. The article contains summaries of significant information about Algerian hospitals that also stands alone as significant. The most notable hospitals should probably have articles, including those established in when Algeria was a French colony and larger hospitals. Respectively, WP:Hospitals, User:G. Moore -- Talk to G Moore 14:41, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
- @ G. Moore: A few things, first of all WP:SNG is clear that Wikiproject's don't decide what's notable and that their standards should be disregarded in deletion discussions. Secondly, according to your comment on the articles talk page you used Google Maps to obtain and confirm names and places using Google Maps, not "coordinates." If you used Google Maps just to obtain the coordinates, cool, but that's what your original comment said. It's still a proprietary map and using it to obtain or confirm "names and places" isn't a part of fair use. For instance you can't just copy and paste that information into OpenStreetMaps because it would be a copyright violation to do so. Also, what significant information does the article contain about the individual hospitals? It's literally just a list of the name of the hospitals and where they are located. In no way is that "significant information." In the meantime the first two paragraphs of the article could just as easily go in WP:Healthcare in Algeria along with the few hospitals that are blue linked. There's zero legitimate reason to have a list article just for the lead paragraph though. -- Adamant1 ( talk) 06:42, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
- Keep Unsure how using coordinates from Google Maps could possibly be a copyright violation. Many hospitals around the world do have their own articles on Wikipedia so it is likely that, given time, many of those listed here will have articles created. NemesisAT ( talk) 21:03, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
- @ NemesisAT: See my comment above this one. It wasn't coordinates, and 100% using Google Maps to to "obtain and confirm names and places" and then copying them to Wikipedia is a copyright violation. Also, your last sentence is just nonsense. The article has been around for a couple of years, never had more then a few blue links and was always badly referenced. If there was ever a chance of it being different then G. Moore should have put in the effort to make it a notable article before hand by creating articles about the individual hospitals first. It's not on the rest of the community that they didn't though. Nor should the article be retained indefinitely while we wait for G. Moore to get it up to snuff with WP:LISTN by creating a bunch of articles they probably aren't going to create or that will just be deleted for a lack of notability if they do anyway. In the meantime, this ever being in line with WP:LISTN has almost zero chance of happening since it seems like G. Moore doesn't really care about it. Even if they did though, they should still have created the individual articles first instead of just assuming someone else would eventually. -- Adamant1 ( talk) 06:42, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, – AssumeGoodWraith ( talk | contribs) 02:56, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
- Strong Delete Unstructured list of dead link spam. No instrinsic, historical or encyclopeadic value. Absolute trash. Fails
WP:NOT,
WP:AUD and
WP:NOTDIRECTORY.
scope_creep
Talk 00:14, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
- Keep It does have a structure. It is grouped by province. There is similar list in the French WikiPedia. I added some Inter language links to show which hospitals could easily have articles written based on French references. Having a list of major hospitals in a country helps determine which are the notable hospitals that should have articles, just as the French article did. Talk to G Moore 14:37, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
- @
G. Moore: If the list was for "major" hospitals maybe I'd agree with you, but that's hardly what this list is. For instance one of the entries is for a diabetic day hospital with 15 beds. There's nothing "major" about that. Nor are the multiple entries for 60 bed hospitals. Even if we were going by the notability criteria for hospitals that Wikiproject Hospitals has, which is 500 beds if I'm remembering correctly, only like 4 of the hospitals on this list would qualify as notable. Not that there is any kind of standard for major hospitals inherently being notable anyway though. Hell, even if we went with your whole thing about basing a notable list off of the French article, only like three of the entries in it are blue linked and from what I can tell they are all referenced to primary sources. So even that part of your comment is completely nonsensical and irrelevant. --
Adamant1 (
talk) 02:51, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
- Could we agree that there should be a List of hospitals in Algeria article listing each of the largest (size, staff size, or number of beds) hospitals, oldest hospitals (such as those left from colonial times), or otherwise significant hospitals that have one or more references to the hospital in Algerian or international news or government websites? Add to this a discussion of the the total number of hospitals in major cities and provinces and how hospitals are classified in the country.
Talk to G Moore 04:54, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
- No we can't, because that's not what this list is. Nor does it seem like the type of list you or anyone else is willing to make. If it was and you were then I wouldn't have nominated it for deletion in the first place. instead it's a list of a bunch of extremely minor hospitals that are cited to primary websites. I'd have zero problem with a well referenced, mostly blue linked list of "colonial" hospitals with more then 500 beds in Algeria or whatever though. Maybe create List of colonial hospitals in Algeria if that's what your concern is and actually create some articles about them this time. Then I'll agree with you that we should have a list covering them. I don't agree that there should be this list though and especially not as it currently is. -- Adamant1 ( talk) 16:07, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
- Could we agree that there should be a List of hospitals in Algeria article listing each of the largest (size, staff size, or number of beds) hospitals, oldest hospitals (such as those left from colonial times), or otherwise significant hospitals that have one or more references to the hospital in Algerian or international news or government websites? Add to this a discussion of the the total number of hospitals in major cities and provinces and how hospitals are classified in the country.
Talk to G Moore 04:54, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
- @
G. Moore: If the list was for "major" hospitals maybe I'd agree with you, but that's hardly what this list is. For instance one of the entries is for a diabetic day hospital with 15 beds. There's nothing "major" about that. Nor are the multiple entries for 60 bed hospitals. Even if we were going by the notability criteria for hospitals that Wikiproject Hospitals has, which is 500 beds if I'm remembering correctly, only like 4 of the hospitals on this list would qualify as notable. Not that there is any kind of standard for major hospitals inherently being notable anyway though. Hell, even if we went with your whole thing about basing a notable list off of the French article, only like three of the entries in it are blue linked and from what I can tell they are all referenced to primary sources. So even that part of your comment is completely nonsensical and irrelevant. --
Adamant1 (
talk) 02:51, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
- Comment: Pinging previous participants as this is looking like a no consensus close unless further discussion is had. @ NemesisAT, G. Moore, Adamant1, and Scope creep: please make your replies if you are going to. –– FormalDude talk 15:58, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Medicine-related deletion discussions. –– FormalDude talk 16:00, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
- Comment The information is copied directly from the Algerian Health Department and the EPH - EHS - EPSP - INFSPM in Hospitals in Béjaïa Province sites. It is all copyvio. It's also a listing article with no quality and of little value. Is it the purpose of Wikipedia to susbtitute the rightful ownership of such information and publish what is in the effect health critical information that is maintained on these health sites? No. Do you think an Algerian person who needs a doctor is going to visit Wikipedia to determine where the hospital is. No. Of course not. It is absolutely absurd to suggest otherwise. So where is the historical or encyclopedic value in maintaining such an article. Hospital articles are good in the sense that critical research is undertaken there, so many of them are generally notable, the most presigious by definition. Many on this list are non-notable in the broadest and narrowest sense and will never have an article So what is the point of such an article. The only missing thing from it that would turn it into a direct reflection of the health sites is the phone numbers. Is Wikipedia a directory. NO. So why turn it a directory when its explicity not its purpose. Directories don't inform nor engender learning. They are for looking up a number and that it is. It is trash. Pure trash with no value. scope_creep Talk 16:18, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Questions about the copyright status are one issue, but none of the keep !votes are (including G Moore's accidental? double vote) are policy based or refute the arguments made to delete. While there could be an article with this topic, we're brought back to the copyvio situation. Star Mississippi 03:46, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
List of hospitals in Algeria
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- List of hospitals in Algeria ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
The article is a complete mess, only like 4 of the entries are blue linked, and the rest appear to be referenced mainly (or only) to primary sources, and there's zero evidence the hospitals are discussed anywhere reliable as a group or set. Also, going by the talk page the names of the hospitals and their coordinates largely come from Google Maps, which as far as I'm aware doesn't have a license that is compatible with Wikimedia. Really the article should be deleted on that alone, but I thought I'd send it through AfD anyway. That said, if anyone wants to try and have the article speedy deleted because of the Copyvio then be my guest. Adamant1 ( talk) 12:26, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Lists and Algeria. Shellwood ( talk) 12:41, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
- Keep There are 143 different sources for this list. Someone else started this article and I tried to clean it up and add sourcing. I would have put the information in a single table for sorting, but stuck with the original format. It is organized by Province, like many of the existing Lists of hospitals in County. I kept the Province summaries because it gave relevance to the number of hospitals in the Province. , which exists for every country. This article fits within the guidelines of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Hospitals and is a top priority. Using Google Earth or Google Maps is a fair use to obtain coordinates, as far as I known. References such as news reports and foreign embassy lists are tied to individual hospitals when they exist. Google is used throughout Wikipedia. The article contains summaries of significant information about Algerian hospitals that also stands alone as significant. The most notable hospitals should probably have articles, including those established in when Algeria was a French colony and larger hospitals. Respectively, WP:Hospitals, User:G. Moore -- Talk to G Moore 14:41, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
- @ G. Moore: A few things, first of all WP:SNG is clear that Wikiproject's don't decide what's notable and that their standards should be disregarded in deletion discussions. Secondly, according to your comment on the articles talk page you used Google Maps to obtain and confirm names and places using Google Maps, not "coordinates." If you used Google Maps just to obtain the coordinates, cool, but that's what your original comment said. It's still a proprietary map and using it to obtain or confirm "names and places" isn't a part of fair use. For instance you can't just copy and paste that information into OpenStreetMaps because it would be a copyright violation to do so. Also, what significant information does the article contain about the individual hospitals? It's literally just a list of the name of the hospitals and where they are located. In no way is that "significant information." In the meantime the first two paragraphs of the article could just as easily go in WP:Healthcare in Algeria along with the few hospitals that are blue linked. There's zero legitimate reason to have a list article just for the lead paragraph though. -- Adamant1 ( talk) 06:42, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
- Keep Unsure how using coordinates from Google Maps could possibly be a copyright violation. Many hospitals around the world do have their own articles on Wikipedia so it is likely that, given time, many of those listed here will have articles created. NemesisAT ( talk) 21:03, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
- @ NemesisAT: See my comment above this one. It wasn't coordinates, and 100% using Google Maps to to "obtain and confirm names and places" and then copying them to Wikipedia is a copyright violation. Also, your last sentence is just nonsense. The article has been around for a couple of years, never had more then a few blue links and was always badly referenced. If there was ever a chance of it being different then G. Moore should have put in the effort to make it a notable article before hand by creating articles about the individual hospitals first. It's not on the rest of the community that they didn't though. Nor should the article be retained indefinitely while we wait for G. Moore to get it up to snuff with WP:LISTN by creating a bunch of articles they probably aren't going to create or that will just be deleted for a lack of notability if they do anyway. In the meantime, this ever being in line with WP:LISTN has almost zero chance of happening since it seems like G. Moore doesn't really care about it. Even if they did though, they should still have created the individual articles first instead of just assuming someone else would eventually. -- Adamant1 ( talk) 06:42, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, – AssumeGoodWraith ( talk | contribs) 02:56, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
- Strong Delete Unstructured list of dead link spam. No instrinsic, historical or encyclopeadic value. Absolute trash. Fails
WP:NOT,
WP:AUD and
WP:NOTDIRECTORY.
scope_creep
Talk 00:14, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
- Keep It does have a structure. It is grouped by province. There is similar list in the French WikiPedia. I added some Inter language links to show which hospitals could easily have articles written based on French references. Having a list of major hospitals in a country helps determine which are the notable hospitals that should have articles, just as the French article did. Talk to G Moore 14:37, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
- @
G. Moore: If the list was for "major" hospitals maybe I'd agree with you, but that's hardly what this list is. For instance one of the entries is for a diabetic day hospital with 15 beds. There's nothing "major" about that. Nor are the multiple entries for 60 bed hospitals. Even if we were going by the notability criteria for hospitals that Wikiproject Hospitals has, which is 500 beds if I'm remembering correctly, only like 4 of the hospitals on this list would qualify as notable. Not that there is any kind of standard for major hospitals inherently being notable anyway though. Hell, even if we went with your whole thing about basing a notable list off of the French article, only like three of the entries in it are blue linked and from what I can tell they are all referenced to primary sources. So even that part of your comment is completely nonsensical and irrelevant. --
Adamant1 (
talk) 02:51, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
- Could we agree that there should be a List of hospitals in Algeria article listing each of the largest (size, staff size, or number of beds) hospitals, oldest hospitals (such as those left from colonial times), or otherwise significant hospitals that have one or more references to the hospital in Algerian or international news or government websites? Add to this a discussion of the the total number of hospitals in major cities and provinces and how hospitals are classified in the country.
Talk to G Moore 04:54, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
- No we can't, because that's not what this list is. Nor does it seem like the type of list you or anyone else is willing to make. If it was and you were then I wouldn't have nominated it for deletion in the first place. instead it's a list of a bunch of extremely minor hospitals that are cited to primary websites. I'd have zero problem with a well referenced, mostly blue linked list of "colonial" hospitals with more then 500 beds in Algeria or whatever though. Maybe create List of colonial hospitals in Algeria if that's what your concern is and actually create some articles about them this time. Then I'll agree with you that we should have a list covering them. I don't agree that there should be this list though and especially not as it currently is. -- Adamant1 ( talk) 16:07, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
- Could we agree that there should be a List of hospitals in Algeria article listing each of the largest (size, staff size, or number of beds) hospitals, oldest hospitals (such as those left from colonial times), or otherwise significant hospitals that have one or more references to the hospital in Algerian or international news or government websites? Add to this a discussion of the the total number of hospitals in major cities and provinces and how hospitals are classified in the country.
Talk to G Moore 04:54, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
- @
G. Moore: If the list was for "major" hospitals maybe I'd agree with you, but that's hardly what this list is. For instance one of the entries is for a diabetic day hospital with 15 beds. There's nothing "major" about that. Nor are the multiple entries for 60 bed hospitals. Even if we were going by the notability criteria for hospitals that Wikiproject Hospitals has, which is 500 beds if I'm remembering correctly, only like 4 of the hospitals on this list would qualify as notable. Not that there is any kind of standard for major hospitals inherently being notable anyway though. Hell, even if we went with your whole thing about basing a notable list off of the French article, only like three of the entries in it are blue linked and from what I can tell they are all referenced to primary sources. So even that part of your comment is completely nonsensical and irrelevant. --
Adamant1 (
talk) 02:51, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
- Comment: Pinging previous participants as this is looking like a no consensus close unless further discussion is had. @ NemesisAT, G. Moore, Adamant1, and Scope creep: please make your replies if you are going to. –– FormalDude talk 15:58, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Medicine-related deletion discussions. –– FormalDude talk 16:00, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
- Comment The information is copied directly from the Algerian Health Department and the EPH - EHS - EPSP - INFSPM in Hospitals in Béjaïa Province sites. It is all copyvio. It's also a listing article with no quality and of little value. Is it the purpose of Wikipedia to susbtitute the rightful ownership of such information and publish what is in the effect health critical information that is maintained on these health sites? No. Do you think an Algerian person who needs a doctor is going to visit Wikipedia to determine where the hospital is. No. Of course not. It is absolutely absurd to suggest otherwise. So where is the historical or encyclopedic value in maintaining such an article. Hospital articles are good in the sense that critical research is undertaken there, so many of them are generally notable, the most presigious by definition. Many on this list are non-notable in the broadest and narrowest sense and will never have an article So what is the point of such an article. The only missing thing from it that would turn it into a direct reflection of the health sites is the phone numbers. Is Wikipedia a directory. NO. So why turn it a directory when its explicity not its purpose. Directories don't inform nor engender learning. They are for looking up a number and that it is. It is trash. Pure trash with no value. scope_creep Talk 16:18, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.