- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Ineligible for soft deletion, but I don't see another spin engendering input where the first two didn't. Happy to restore upon request without DRV Star Mississippi 01:04, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
Kesatuan Gurita
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- Kesatuan Gurita ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Once again, I'd like to propose the deletion of this article. Initially, my awareness of this unit arose from its presence on Wikipedia, prompting me to contribute and expand it beyond its initial stub status. However, I encountered significant challenges due to the scarcity of available sources. A search yielded only around 9-10 books, all of which contained very similar information, suggesting a common source, likely the oldest among them. Furthermore, the information from these books has already been incorporated into the article, resulting in a mere three-sentence paragraph.
Moreover, my efforts to find reliable Indonesian-language sources proved unfruitful, despite the unit's affiliation with the Indonesian military. I expected to find references to it within documents from the Indonesian National Armed Forces or Indonesian Navy, or possibly in the archives of the National Archives of Indonesia if it held historical significance. However, my inquiries only led to wiki-like websites and forums, all drawing from the same pool of information found in the books.
While the term "gurita" (octopus) is commonly used within Indonesian navy contexts, associations with units such as the 5th Marine Infantry Battalion, which bears the nickname "Gurita Cakti," and naval special force task force known as Satgas Gurita, a military training codename for operations like hostage rescue, counterterrorism, and securing critical facilities (see 1 for reference), both appear unrelated to the unit in question.
Consequently, I am inclined to believe that this unit may be fictitious, with the information provided in the books possibly stemming from a misunderstanding or error. It's important to acknowledge that even reliable sources are not infallible. Ckfasdf ( talk) 13:33, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Military and Indonesia. Shellwood ( talk) 13:41, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Ineligible for soft deletion.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗ plicit 14:32, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
- Comment - Based on my limited research, I do think the unit truly existed. An article in RRI showed that the unit existed. Another news article that mentioned it are Jatim Network which is less reliable than RRI. However, I do realize that RRI may have taken the information from wrong sources as well - as it seems very odd that the unit is similar with Denjaka or Taifib but somehow get way less coverage. ✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 14:03, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
- @
SunDawn: I'm inclined to think that RRI might also have inaccurate information, considering it was only briefly mentioned in that article. And, the statement from RRI contradicts other sources, as it suggests that the unit is part of the Indonesian Marine Corps, while other sources in those books indicate that it is an Indonesian Navy Special Forces unit. Additionally, as you pointed out, it's quite unusual that we couldn't locate any dedicated coverage for this unit. Moreover, after looking into the regulations on armed forces organization throughout history, none of them mention anything about this unit, whereas they do mention other special forces units like Denjaka or Taifib. IMO, this is a case of
WP:NPOSSIBLE, as there are few or no suitable sources that could be cited to expand this article.
Ckfasdf (
talk) 02:46, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
- I am looking at Indonesian military documents today and it seems like "Kesatuan Gurita" is never mentioned everywhere. For instance,
this document mentioned all others in passing - Denjaka, Taifib, and Kopaska - but not Gurita. I can see official documents about others but searches to Gurita give no information. The problem of this is that it is mentioned in books, thus the unit is not entirely fictional. It is possible that at some point Gurita existed but it is merged or renamed to other unit.
✠ SunDawn ✠
(contact) 07:40, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
- @ SunDawn: The absence of any mention of the unit "Kesatuan Gurita" in official Indonesian armed forces or navy sources raises doubts about its existence. This unit is only referenced in approximately 9-10 books, which all provide similar information. However, the lack of corroborating evidence suggests a potential misunderstanding or misinterpretation by the authors, possibly due to the unfamiliarity of the terminology to non-native speakers of Indonesian. It's plausible that they confused "Kesatuan Gurita" with the legitimate military task force "Satgas Gurita" (an abbreviation of "Satuan Tugas Gurita"), as mentioned earlier. And, especially considering that the word of "Kesatuan" is unheard of in Indonesian military terminology, with the word of "Satuan" being the more commonly used term. Ckfasdf ( talk) 08:28, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
- I am looking at Indonesian military documents today and it seems like "Kesatuan Gurita" is never mentioned everywhere. For instance,
this document mentioned all others in passing - Denjaka, Taifib, and Kopaska - but not Gurita. I can see official documents about others but searches to Gurita give no information. The problem of this is that it is mentioned in books, thus the unit is not entirely fictional. It is possible that at some point Gurita existed but it is merged or renamed to other unit.
✠ SunDawn ✠
(contact) 07:40, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
- @
SunDawn: I'm inclined to think that RRI might also have inaccurate information, considering it was only briefly mentioned in that article. And, the statement from RRI contradicts other sources, as it suggests that the unit is part of the Indonesian Marine Corps, while other sources in those books indicate that it is an Indonesian Navy Special Forces unit. Additionally, as you pointed out, it's quite unusual that we couldn't locate any dedicated coverage for this unit. Moreover, after looking into the regulations on armed forces organization throughout history, none of them mention anything about this unit, whereas they do mention other special forces units like Denjaka or Taifib. IMO, this is a case of
WP:NPOSSIBLE, as there are few or no suitable sources that could be cited to expand this article.
Ckfasdf (
talk) 02:46, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 18:55, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Ineligible for soft deletion, but I don't see another spin engendering input where the first two didn't. Happy to restore upon request without DRV Star Mississippi 01:04, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
Kesatuan Gurita
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Kesatuan Gurita ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Once again, I'd like to propose the deletion of this article. Initially, my awareness of this unit arose from its presence on Wikipedia, prompting me to contribute and expand it beyond its initial stub status. However, I encountered significant challenges due to the scarcity of available sources. A search yielded only around 9-10 books, all of which contained very similar information, suggesting a common source, likely the oldest among them. Furthermore, the information from these books has already been incorporated into the article, resulting in a mere three-sentence paragraph.
Moreover, my efforts to find reliable Indonesian-language sources proved unfruitful, despite the unit's affiliation with the Indonesian military. I expected to find references to it within documents from the Indonesian National Armed Forces or Indonesian Navy, or possibly in the archives of the National Archives of Indonesia if it held historical significance. However, my inquiries only led to wiki-like websites and forums, all drawing from the same pool of information found in the books.
While the term "gurita" (octopus) is commonly used within Indonesian navy contexts, associations with units such as the 5th Marine Infantry Battalion, which bears the nickname "Gurita Cakti," and naval special force task force known as Satgas Gurita, a military training codename for operations like hostage rescue, counterterrorism, and securing critical facilities (see 1 for reference), both appear unrelated to the unit in question.
Consequently, I am inclined to believe that this unit may be fictitious, with the information provided in the books possibly stemming from a misunderstanding or error. It's important to acknowledge that even reliable sources are not infallible. Ckfasdf ( talk) 13:33, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Military and Indonesia. Shellwood ( talk) 13:41, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Ineligible for soft deletion.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗ plicit 14:32, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
- Comment - Based on my limited research, I do think the unit truly existed. An article in RRI showed that the unit existed. Another news article that mentioned it are Jatim Network which is less reliable than RRI. However, I do realize that RRI may have taken the information from wrong sources as well - as it seems very odd that the unit is similar with Denjaka or Taifib but somehow get way less coverage. ✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 14:03, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
- @
SunDawn: I'm inclined to think that RRI might also have inaccurate information, considering it was only briefly mentioned in that article. And, the statement from RRI contradicts other sources, as it suggests that the unit is part of the Indonesian Marine Corps, while other sources in those books indicate that it is an Indonesian Navy Special Forces unit. Additionally, as you pointed out, it's quite unusual that we couldn't locate any dedicated coverage for this unit. Moreover, after looking into the regulations on armed forces organization throughout history, none of them mention anything about this unit, whereas they do mention other special forces units like Denjaka or Taifib. IMO, this is a case of
WP:NPOSSIBLE, as there are few or no suitable sources that could be cited to expand this article.
Ckfasdf (
talk) 02:46, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
- I am looking at Indonesian military documents today and it seems like "Kesatuan Gurita" is never mentioned everywhere. For instance,
this document mentioned all others in passing - Denjaka, Taifib, and Kopaska - but not Gurita. I can see official documents about others but searches to Gurita give no information. The problem of this is that it is mentioned in books, thus the unit is not entirely fictional. It is possible that at some point Gurita existed but it is merged or renamed to other unit.
✠ SunDawn ✠
(contact) 07:40, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
- @ SunDawn: The absence of any mention of the unit "Kesatuan Gurita" in official Indonesian armed forces or navy sources raises doubts about its existence. This unit is only referenced in approximately 9-10 books, which all provide similar information. However, the lack of corroborating evidence suggests a potential misunderstanding or misinterpretation by the authors, possibly due to the unfamiliarity of the terminology to non-native speakers of Indonesian. It's plausible that they confused "Kesatuan Gurita" with the legitimate military task force "Satgas Gurita" (an abbreviation of "Satuan Tugas Gurita"), as mentioned earlier. And, especially considering that the word of "Kesatuan" is unheard of in Indonesian military terminology, with the word of "Satuan" being the more commonly used term. Ckfasdf ( talk) 08:28, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
- I am looking at Indonesian military documents today and it seems like "Kesatuan Gurita" is never mentioned everywhere. For instance,
this document mentioned all others in passing - Denjaka, Taifib, and Kopaska - but not Gurita. I can see official documents about others but searches to Gurita give no information. The problem of this is that it is mentioned in books, thus the unit is not entirely fictional. It is possible that at some point Gurita existed but it is merged or renamed to other unit.
✠ SunDawn ✠
(contact) 07:40, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
- @
SunDawn: I'm inclined to think that RRI might also have inaccurate information, considering it was only briefly mentioned in that article. And, the statement from RRI contradicts other sources, as it suggests that the unit is part of the Indonesian Marine Corps, while other sources in those books indicate that it is an Indonesian Navy Special Forces unit. Additionally, as you pointed out, it's quite unusual that we couldn't locate any dedicated coverage for this unit. Moreover, after looking into the regulations on armed forces organization throughout history, none of them mention anything about this unit, whereas they do mention other special forces units like Denjaka or Taifib. IMO, this is a case of
WP:NPOSSIBLE, as there are few or no suitable sources that could be cited to expand this article.
Ckfasdf (
talk) 02:46, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 18:55, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.