- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. A consensus was reached. Third relist was accidental. (non-admin closure) Shadow311 ( talk) 14:14, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
Grace Choy
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Grace Choy ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Fails WP:GNG, no reliable sources aside from minor mentions in lists. All other sources are self published. ~ Eejit43 ( talk) 12:13, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Women, Food and drink, and Hong Kong. ~ Eejit43 ( talk) 12:13, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
- Delete – fails notability guidelines; no primary independent sources found (only self published works or interviews). Toadette ( Let's discuss together!) 17:33, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
- Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent
reliable sources. The subject passes
Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Basic criteria, which says:
SourcesPeople are presumed notable if they have received significant coverage in multiple published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject.
- If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability; trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources is not usually sufficient to establish notability.
- Ziegler, Owen (2023-06-03).
"At Grace Choy's table, a tantalizing portal to Cantonese cuisine".
The Japan Times. Archived from
the original on 2024-03-21. Retrieved 2024-03-21.
The article notes: "Until early 2020, she was splitting her time between her native Hong Kong and Tokyo, where she served as the driving culinary force behind a Nishiazabu restaurant backed by a Tokyo-based restaurateur and event planning consortium. When her annual contract she’d signed the year before was up for renewal, Choy found herself faced with a difficult decision: continue working as a cog in a successful, larger culinary operation or reclaim everything for herself. ... Despite the magnitude of the decision, Choy was no amateur embarking out on her own. It had been years since she had left her previous career as an office worker behind to focus on cooking, and she already had much to show for it. Choy’s 2018 cookbook, “Grace’s 60 Recipes,” earned the Best Woman Chef Book designation by the Gourmand Awards the following year, and CNN once described her private kitchen back in Hong Kong as one of that city’s best kept hidden gems. She also partners with several premium culinary brands — an explanation for all her Le Creuset cookware she puts to great use."
- Kwong, Yuet-kuen 鄺月娟 (2014-12-24). "私房女強人" [Private kitchen strong woman].
East Week (in Chinese).
The article notes: "脫離打工束縛夢想不再是夢出生於新界的Grace曾於英國修讀秘書課程，畢業回港很不習慣香港急促的步伐，其後在一九九八年與丈夫Ken結婚，便隨丈夫北上打拼 ，在廣東、東北兩邊走。 二〇〇六年返港後，她要再次適應香港都市生活，她坦言仍不習慣，直至二〇〇八年她加入著名廚具品牌Miele當行政人員，仍無法綁住她一顆驛動的心 。"
From Google Translate: "The dream of escaping from the shackles of working is no longer a dream. Grace was born in the New Territories and studied secretarial courses in the UK. After graduating, she returned to Hong Kong and was not used to the fast pace of Hong Kong. Later, she married her husband Ken in 1998 and followed him north to work hard. , walking on both sides of Guangdong and Northeast China. After returning to Hong Kong in 2006, she had to adapt to urban life in Hong Kong again. She admitted that she was still not used to it. Until 2008, when she joined Miele, a famous kitchenware brand, as an administrator, she still could not restrain her heart."
- Yao, Shun 姚舜 (2023-07-22).
"名．店．新．菜－香港私房菜女王Grace Choy客座紫艷中餐廳" [Name. Shop. New. Cuisine－Grace Choy, the Queen of Hong Kong's Private Cuisine, is a guest at Yen Chinese Restaurant].
China Times (in Chinese). Archived from
the original on 2024-03-21. Retrieved 2024-03-21.
The article notes: "Grace蔡孫美華非餐飲科班出身，她在英國求學時念的是祕書資料管理相關科系，畢業後也是從事祕書工作，2011年她決定創業、在元朗開了家小餐廳賣早餐與輕食，有16個座位，用餐的都是過路客。後來，她將菜色調整並將餐廳改為預約制，經《東方日報》採訪報導並給了極佳評價，自此〈蔡菜館〉打開了知名度，其後並有不同媒體跟進報導，Grace與〈蔡菜館〉成了名廚與名店。CNN將〈蔡菜館〉列入「香港十大最佳私房菜」榜單，Grace撰寫的60道菜式食譜被世界美食家大獎（Gourmand International）評為「最佳女廚師食譜」。"
From Google Translate: "Grace Cai Sun Meihua is not a catering major. When she was studying in the UK, she majored in secretarial information management. After graduation, she also worked as a secretary. In 2011, she decided to start a business and opened a small restaurant in Yuen Long selling breakfast and light meals. There are 16 seats, and the diners are all passers-by. Later, she adjusted the dishes and changed the restaurant to a reservation system. After being interviewed and reported by "Oriental Daily News" and giving excellent reviews, "Cai Cai Restaurant" became famous. Later, different media followed up and reported that Grace and "Cai Cai Restaurant" has become a famous chef and famous restaurant. CNN included "Cai Restaurant" in the "Top Ten Best Private Kitchens in Hong Kong" list, and the 60-dish recipe written by Grace was named "Best Female Chef Cookbook" by Gourmand International."
- Au-yeung, Hiu-sze 歐陽曉思 (2014-04-26). "賞味：10萬粉絲 村屋飄香" [Appreciation: 100,000 fans, the fragrance of the village house].
Apple Daily (in Chinese). p. E8.
The article notes: "Grace雖沒替人把脈，卻好像中醫師一樣，很注重客人的健康，主張客人要品嚐食材原味，菜式均以簡單方法烹調，全無味精，讓客人吃得安心。 在新界長大的Grace，自小熱愛入廚，但從沒有想過將自己的事業跟興趣掛鉤，在英國讀書回港後，她一直從事文職工作十年，之後在內地幫丈夫打理生意， 回港後在廚具公司Miele工作兩年。"
From Google Translate: "Although Grace is not checking someone's pulse, she is like a Chinese medicine practitioner who pays great attention to the health of her guests and advises her guests to taste the original flavors of the ingredients. The dishes are all cooked using simple methods and contain no MSG, so that guests can eat with peace of mind. Grace, who grew up in the New Territories, has loved cooking since she was a child, but she never thought of linking her career to her hobby. After studying in the UK and returning to Hong Kong, she has been working as a clerical worker for ten years, and then helped her husband manage his business in the Mainland. After returning to Hong Kong, he worked for Miele, a kitchenware company, for two years."
- There are additional sources listed on her website including "Media" Internet Archive and "Japan Media" Internet Archive.
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: It would be helpful to evaluate @Cunard's analyses.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 🍪 Cookie Monster 12:34, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
- Keep – I fully agree with @ Cunard that Grace deserves a Wikipedia article. She has been featured in many reliable sources, showing her importance. Although the current article may be brief, I'm confident that as more media covers her life, editors will expand and enrich the content over time 102.88.70.122 ( talk) 10:16, 27 March 2024 (UTC) — 102.88.70.122 ( talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Can we get an assessment of these newly found sources? Thank you.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 23:38, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
- Keep per WP:HEY. Dramatic improvements have been edited in. Great job. Bearian ( talk) 14:19, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
- Draftify I don't see the HEY at all. The article does not do a good job at explaining what she is primarily known for, or giving biographical background. Four out of nine sources currently in the article are primary, as far as I can tell. The top 10s are hardly in-depth, or at best indicate that the restaurant, and not the chef, should be the article subject. There is still promotional and vague material: "Choy appeared as a guest chef at various platforms, including government events, charity functions, and 5-star hotels. What does that amount to? Now, Cunard's sources are something else, but seeing as the article is fairly new and that there was a small scuffle to move it in and out of draft space, the best course of action (and maybe for the creator to learn more) would be place it firmly in draft space, and craft this page a little less hastily through the whole Articles for Creation process. Geschichte ( talk) 17:56, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. The Japan Times article is a 1000-word feature on her. It absolutely should not be sent through AfC, since it will just get stuck in the queue only for an AfC reviewer to observe that she has a 1000-word feature in the Japan Times and send it right back to mainspace. -- asilvering ( talk) 04:30, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Shadow311 ( talk) 14:00, 10 April 2024 (UTC)- @ Shadow311 seems like there's a clear consensus to keep? Mach61 14:01, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. A consensus was reached. Third relist was accidental. (non-admin closure) Shadow311 ( talk) 14:14, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
Grace Choy
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Grace Choy ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Fails WP:GNG, no reliable sources aside from minor mentions in lists. All other sources are self published. ~ Eejit43 ( talk) 12:13, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Women, Food and drink, and Hong Kong. ~ Eejit43 ( talk) 12:13, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
- Delete – fails notability guidelines; no primary independent sources found (only self published works or interviews). Toadette ( Let's discuss together!) 17:33, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
- Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent
reliable sources. The subject passes
Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Basic criteria, which says:
SourcesPeople are presumed notable if they have received significant coverage in multiple published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject.
- If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability; trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources is not usually sufficient to establish notability.
- Ziegler, Owen (2023-06-03).
"At Grace Choy's table, a tantalizing portal to Cantonese cuisine".
The Japan Times. Archived from
the original on 2024-03-21. Retrieved 2024-03-21.
The article notes: "Until early 2020, she was splitting her time between her native Hong Kong and Tokyo, where she served as the driving culinary force behind a Nishiazabu restaurant backed by a Tokyo-based restaurateur and event planning consortium. When her annual contract she’d signed the year before was up for renewal, Choy found herself faced with a difficult decision: continue working as a cog in a successful, larger culinary operation or reclaim everything for herself. ... Despite the magnitude of the decision, Choy was no amateur embarking out on her own. It had been years since she had left her previous career as an office worker behind to focus on cooking, and she already had much to show for it. Choy’s 2018 cookbook, “Grace’s 60 Recipes,” earned the Best Woman Chef Book designation by the Gourmand Awards the following year, and CNN once described her private kitchen back in Hong Kong as one of that city’s best kept hidden gems. She also partners with several premium culinary brands — an explanation for all her Le Creuset cookware she puts to great use."
- Kwong, Yuet-kuen 鄺月娟 (2014-12-24). "私房女強人" [Private kitchen strong woman].
East Week (in Chinese).
The article notes: "脫離打工束縛夢想不再是夢出生於新界的Grace曾於英國修讀秘書課程，畢業回港很不習慣香港急促的步伐，其後在一九九八年與丈夫Ken結婚，便隨丈夫北上打拼 ，在廣東、東北兩邊走。 二〇〇六年返港後，她要再次適應香港都市生活，她坦言仍不習慣，直至二〇〇八年她加入著名廚具品牌Miele當行政人員，仍無法綁住她一顆驛動的心 。"
From Google Translate: "The dream of escaping from the shackles of working is no longer a dream. Grace was born in the New Territories and studied secretarial courses in the UK. After graduating, she returned to Hong Kong and was not used to the fast pace of Hong Kong. Later, she married her husband Ken in 1998 and followed him north to work hard. , walking on both sides of Guangdong and Northeast China. After returning to Hong Kong in 2006, she had to adapt to urban life in Hong Kong again. She admitted that she was still not used to it. Until 2008, when she joined Miele, a famous kitchenware brand, as an administrator, she still could not restrain her heart."
- Yao, Shun 姚舜 (2023-07-22).
"名．店．新．菜－香港私房菜女王Grace Choy客座紫艷中餐廳" [Name. Shop. New. Cuisine－Grace Choy, the Queen of Hong Kong's Private Cuisine, is a guest at Yen Chinese Restaurant].
China Times (in Chinese). Archived from
the original on 2024-03-21. Retrieved 2024-03-21.
The article notes: "Grace蔡孫美華非餐飲科班出身，她在英國求學時念的是祕書資料管理相關科系，畢業後也是從事祕書工作，2011年她決定創業、在元朗開了家小餐廳賣早餐與輕食，有16個座位，用餐的都是過路客。後來，她將菜色調整並將餐廳改為預約制，經《東方日報》採訪報導並給了極佳評價，自此〈蔡菜館〉打開了知名度，其後並有不同媒體跟進報導，Grace與〈蔡菜館〉成了名廚與名店。CNN將〈蔡菜館〉列入「香港十大最佳私房菜」榜單，Grace撰寫的60道菜式食譜被世界美食家大獎（Gourmand International）評為「最佳女廚師食譜」。"
From Google Translate: "Grace Cai Sun Meihua is not a catering major. When she was studying in the UK, she majored in secretarial information management. After graduation, she also worked as a secretary. In 2011, she decided to start a business and opened a small restaurant in Yuen Long selling breakfast and light meals. There are 16 seats, and the diners are all passers-by. Later, she adjusted the dishes and changed the restaurant to a reservation system. After being interviewed and reported by "Oriental Daily News" and giving excellent reviews, "Cai Cai Restaurant" became famous. Later, different media followed up and reported that Grace and "Cai Cai Restaurant" has become a famous chef and famous restaurant. CNN included "Cai Restaurant" in the "Top Ten Best Private Kitchens in Hong Kong" list, and the 60-dish recipe written by Grace was named "Best Female Chef Cookbook" by Gourmand International."
- Au-yeung, Hiu-sze 歐陽曉思 (2014-04-26). "賞味：10萬粉絲 村屋飄香" [Appreciation: 100,000 fans, the fragrance of the village house].
Apple Daily (in Chinese). p. E8.
The article notes: "Grace雖沒替人把脈，卻好像中醫師一樣，很注重客人的健康，主張客人要品嚐食材原味，菜式均以簡單方法烹調，全無味精，讓客人吃得安心。 在新界長大的Grace，自小熱愛入廚，但從沒有想過將自己的事業跟興趣掛鉤，在英國讀書回港後，她一直從事文職工作十年，之後在內地幫丈夫打理生意， 回港後在廚具公司Miele工作兩年。"
From Google Translate: "Although Grace is not checking someone's pulse, she is like a Chinese medicine practitioner who pays great attention to the health of her guests and advises her guests to taste the original flavors of the ingredients. The dishes are all cooked using simple methods and contain no MSG, so that guests can eat with peace of mind. Grace, who grew up in the New Territories, has loved cooking since she was a child, but she never thought of linking her career to her hobby. After studying in the UK and returning to Hong Kong, she has been working as a clerical worker for ten years, and then helped her husband manage his business in the Mainland. After returning to Hong Kong, he worked for Miele, a kitchenware company, for two years."
- There are additional sources listed on her website including "Media" Internet Archive and "Japan Media" Internet Archive.
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: It would be helpful to evaluate @Cunard's analyses.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 🍪 Cookie Monster 12:34, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
- Keep – I fully agree with @ Cunard that Grace deserves a Wikipedia article. She has been featured in many reliable sources, showing her importance. Although the current article may be brief, I'm confident that as more media covers her life, editors will expand and enrich the content over time 102.88.70.122 ( talk) 10:16, 27 March 2024 (UTC) — 102.88.70.122 ( talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Can we get an assessment of these newly found sources? Thank you.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 23:38, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
- Keep per WP:HEY. Dramatic improvements have been edited in. Great job. Bearian ( talk) 14:19, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
- Draftify I don't see the HEY at all. The article does not do a good job at explaining what she is primarily known for, or giving biographical background. Four out of nine sources currently in the article are primary, as far as I can tell. The top 10s are hardly in-depth, or at best indicate that the restaurant, and not the chef, should be the article subject. There is still promotional and vague material: "Choy appeared as a guest chef at various platforms, including government events, charity functions, and 5-star hotels. What does that amount to? Now, Cunard's sources are something else, but seeing as the article is fairly new and that there was a small scuffle to move it in and out of draft space, the best course of action (and maybe for the creator to learn more) would be place it firmly in draft space, and craft this page a little less hastily through the whole Articles for Creation process. Geschichte ( talk) 17:56, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. The Japan Times article is a 1000-word feature on her. It absolutely should not be sent through AfC, since it will just get stuck in the queue only for an AfC reviewer to observe that she has a 1000-word feature in the Japan Times and send it right back to mainspace. -- asilvering ( talk) 04:30, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Shadow311 ( talk) 14:00, 10 April 2024 (UTC)- @ Shadow311 seems like there's a clear consensus to keep? Mach61 14:01, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.