- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Consensus among those who make policy-based arguments is that the subject does not meet even the relatively liberal subject-specific notability guideline. This closure overturns a previous mistaken non-admin closure, see Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2020 October 11. Sandstein 10:46, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
Cindy Dock
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Non-notable former tennis player who fails WP:NTENNIS and WP:GNG, all the sources I found are either about Alex de Minaur or are just database entries. Iffy★ Chat -- 22:33, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Shellwood ( talk) 22:37, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Australia-related deletion discussions. Shellwood ( talk) 22:37, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Shellwood ( talk) 22:37, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
- I have a read of Wikipedia:Notability (sports). While it detailed criteria for both players and managers in many sports, it left out tennis coaches. Cindy Dock fails the player criteria in Wikipedia:Notability_(sports)#Tennis, how about as a coach? The question I want to raise is, how successful a player has to be for his/her coach to qualify? There is no guideline on it. Lovewhatyoudo ( talk) 23:47, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
- Would a Grand Slam quarterfinal or above do it? If that's the case, Cindy Dock is not a lone case. Günter Bresnik, coach of Dominic Thiem; Carl Chang (tennis), coach of Michael Chang; Sven Groeneveld, coach of Maria Sharapova, etc. By the way, I don't think this AfD is supposed to deal with a guideline-wise broad conversation like this. Is there a better place? Lovewhatyoudo ( talk) 23:47, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
- From the Alex de Minaur article it appears thst Dock was his coach until he was 9, while the others you have mentioned have been coaches of top professional players during their times as top professional players. Also, the place to discuss possible notability guidelines for tennis coaches are at WT:TENNIS and WT:NSPORTS Iffy★ Chat -- 09:36, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
- Keep She played in an international professional tennis competition. Which should be enough to pass NSPORTS. Although I'm not a fan of keeping badly sourced articles either and if I had my way NSPORTS wouldn't allow for them, the guidelines are the guidelines. They should be stricter though, but this isn't the place to litigate it. -- Adamant1 ( talk) 01:59, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
- NTENNIS already has guidelines on which type of tournaments require participation, and which ones require winning the tournament to pass the guideline. She never won any of the $25k events she played, she lost in the 1st round of the only $50k event she played, and failed to qualify for the only WTA event she played. She doesn't meet the guidelines, which is why we're here. Iffy★ Chat -- 09:36, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
- Keep: NTennis speaks of Singles and Doubles, and a $25,000 ITF Women's tournament. She made it to ITF Women's Circuit $50,000-category in Thessalonki, Greece, so qualifies. As to the above comment, NSPORTS is hopless, all you need to do is play one First Class Cricket match and you qualify. Yes, this not the place to scream about NSPORTS. -- Whiteguru ( talk) 05:31, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
- Keep She has played International sports competition. Passes NSPORTS. Priyanjali singh ( talk) 14:30, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
- Keep per wp:sportsbasic, enough notable sports figure.--☆★ Mamushir ( ✉✉) 16:08, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
- Keep: Obvious notable figure in tennise. Deathlibrarian ( talk) 05:27, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
- I hate to badger the keep voters, but what is your basis for claiming that this person is notable? I've already explained why her tennis career doesn't give her a presumption of notability and nobody's presented a source that can pass GNG. Iffy★ Chat -- 08:42, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
- Her career as a tennis coach attracts much media attention. Whether she deserves that attention is beyond our scope. Lovewhatyoudo ( talk) 01:57, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
- Delete. Her achievements do not suffice for WP:NTENNIS; she played on ITF woman 50K, but did not get a title. Coverage on her is limited and largely WP:ROUTINE, so does not meet WP:SPORTSBASIC. Walwal20 talk ▾ contribs 18:29, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
- Weak Keep this is a difficult one. She does not exactly fit in the
WP:NTENNIS guideline but perhaps the
WP:NSPORTS. I think there should be a place for her in the encyclopedia
WP:BARE
Wm335td (
talk) 14:57, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
- She does not even closely fit NSPORT or WikiProjectTennis guidelines. It's possible she could fit GNG but that is not my area of knowledge. Fyunck(click) ( talk) 05:51, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: This could use more input on whether the subject meets NTENNIS or the GNG. Sources for these claims would help.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, – bradv 🍁 01:51, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
Relisting comment: This could use more input on whether the subject meets NTENNIS or the GNG. Sources for these claims would help.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, – bradv 🍁 01:51, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
- Delete - She meats no Tennis Project Guidelines or NTENNIS Guidelines at all. You have to remember that tennis has many levels, just like baseball. Tennis has the WTA Tour level (which is everything you see on tv). And just like major league baseball, just playing any event you are notable. You are also notable if you play at the Olympics or Federation Cup (also the major leagues). Then you have the ITF level minor league, today $50,000+ tournaments but when she played it was $25,000+ tournaments. Less than those amounts are the minor-minor leagues... professional but lots of kids playing for $100. To be notable in the minor league a player must "win" the event. That's a pretty low threshold and she didn't do it in singles or doubles. She was a on match and out type player in the minor and minor-minor leagues. Not notable for anything tennis related however I can't speak to her general notability. Sometimes a person becomes notable just for spilling a cup of coffee. Fyunck(click) ( talk) 22:55, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
- Weak Keep per Wm335td. Deus et lex ( talk) 04:04, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
- Delete These are some of the worst keep votes I've ever seen. WP:NTENNIS is plainly NOT met, appearing in a 50k tour event is not sufficient. I don't see coverage that meets WP:GNG either; she isn't even mentioned in the SMH reference. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 03:58, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Consensus among those who make policy-based arguments is that the subject does not meet even the relatively liberal subject-specific notability guideline. This closure overturns a previous mistaken non-admin closure, see Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2020 October 11. Sandstein 10:46, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
Cindy Dock
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Cindy Dock ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Non-notable former tennis player who fails WP:NTENNIS and WP:GNG, all the sources I found are either about Alex de Minaur or are just database entries. Iffy★ Chat -- 22:33, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Shellwood ( talk) 22:37, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Australia-related deletion discussions. Shellwood ( talk) 22:37, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Shellwood ( talk) 22:37, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
- I have a read of Wikipedia:Notability (sports). While it detailed criteria for both players and managers in many sports, it left out tennis coaches. Cindy Dock fails the player criteria in Wikipedia:Notability_(sports)#Tennis, how about as a coach? The question I want to raise is, how successful a player has to be for his/her coach to qualify? There is no guideline on it. Lovewhatyoudo ( talk) 23:47, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
- Would a Grand Slam quarterfinal or above do it? If that's the case, Cindy Dock is not a lone case. Günter Bresnik, coach of Dominic Thiem; Carl Chang (tennis), coach of Michael Chang; Sven Groeneveld, coach of Maria Sharapova, etc. By the way, I don't think this AfD is supposed to deal with a guideline-wise broad conversation like this. Is there a better place? Lovewhatyoudo ( talk) 23:47, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
- From the Alex de Minaur article it appears thst Dock was his coach until he was 9, while the others you have mentioned have been coaches of top professional players during their times as top professional players. Also, the place to discuss possible notability guidelines for tennis coaches are at WT:TENNIS and WT:NSPORTS Iffy★ Chat -- 09:36, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
- Keep She played in an international professional tennis competition. Which should be enough to pass NSPORTS. Although I'm not a fan of keeping badly sourced articles either and if I had my way NSPORTS wouldn't allow for them, the guidelines are the guidelines. They should be stricter though, but this isn't the place to litigate it. -- Adamant1 ( talk) 01:59, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
- NTENNIS already has guidelines on which type of tournaments require participation, and which ones require winning the tournament to pass the guideline. She never won any of the $25k events she played, she lost in the 1st round of the only $50k event she played, and failed to qualify for the only WTA event she played. She doesn't meet the guidelines, which is why we're here. Iffy★ Chat -- 09:36, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
- Keep: NTennis speaks of Singles and Doubles, and a $25,000 ITF Women's tournament. She made it to ITF Women's Circuit $50,000-category in Thessalonki, Greece, so qualifies. As to the above comment, NSPORTS is hopless, all you need to do is play one First Class Cricket match and you qualify. Yes, this not the place to scream about NSPORTS. -- Whiteguru ( talk) 05:31, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
- Keep She has played International sports competition. Passes NSPORTS. Priyanjali singh ( talk) 14:30, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
- Keep per wp:sportsbasic, enough notable sports figure.--☆★ Mamushir ( ✉✉) 16:08, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
- Keep: Obvious notable figure in tennise. Deathlibrarian ( talk) 05:27, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
- I hate to badger the keep voters, but what is your basis for claiming that this person is notable? I've already explained why her tennis career doesn't give her a presumption of notability and nobody's presented a source that can pass GNG. Iffy★ Chat -- 08:42, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
- Her career as a tennis coach attracts much media attention. Whether she deserves that attention is beyond our scope. Lovewhatyoudo ( talk) 01:57, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
- Delete. Her achievements do not suffice for WP:NTENNIS; she played on ITF woman 50K, but did not get a title. Coverage on her is limited and largely WP:ROUTINE, so does not meet WP:SPORTSBASIC. Walwal20 talk ▾ contribs 18:29, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
- Weak Keep this is a difficult one. She does not exactly fit in the
WP:NTENNIS guideline but perhaps the
WP:NSPORTS. I think there should be a place for her in the encyclopedia
WP:BARE
Wm335td (
talk) 14:57, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
- She does not even closely fit NSPORT or WikiProjectTennis guidelines. It's possible she could fit GNG but that is not my area of knowledge. Fyunck(click) ( talk) 05:51, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: This could use more input on whether the subject meets NTENNIS or the GNG. Sources for these claims would help.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, – bradv 🍁 01:51, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
Relisting comment: This could use more input on whether the subject meets NTENNIS or the GNG. Sources for these claims would help.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, – bradv 🍁 01:51, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
- Delete - She meats no Tennis Project Guidelines or NTENNIS Guidelines at all. You have to remember that tennis has many levels, just like baseball. Tennis has the WTA Tour level (which is everything you see on tv). And just like major league baseball, just playing any event you are notable. You are also notable if you play at the Olympics or Federation Cup (also the major leagues). Then you have the ITF level minor league, today $50,000+ tournaments but when she played it was $25,000+ tournaments. Less than those amounts are the minor-minor leagues... professional but lots of kids playing for $100. To be notable in the minor league a player must "win" the event. That's a pretty low threshold and she didn't do it in singles or doubles. She was a on match and out type player in the minor and minor-minor leagues. Not notable for anything tennis related however I can't speak to her general notability. Sometimes a person becomes notable just for spilling a cup of coffee. Fyunck(click) ( talk) 22:55, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
- Weak Keep per Wm335td. Deus et lex ( talk) 04:04, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
- Delete These are some of the worst keep votes I've ever seen. WP:NTENNIS is plainly NOT met, appearing in a 50k tour event is not sufficient. I don't see coverage that meets WP:GNG either; she isn't even mentioned in the SMH reference. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 03:58, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.