- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. A Train talk 08:52, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
2016 Indian Line of Control strike
- 2016 Indian Line of Control strike ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Textbook definition of WP:CFORK and WP:POVFORK. Entire article is copy-pasted out of India–Pakistan border skirmishes (2016–present), which was created in 2016 on this exact "strike". If anything, the post-2016 skirmishes should have an article, not this 2016 conflict which has an existing article. The title ("Indian Line of Control strike") is also inherently WP:POV and in violation of consensus here which was in favour of "military confrontation" as per neutral sources.
This is a rare example of a Wikipedia article being spun (from its own article) into a new duplicate article, re-Christened under a rejected title per WP:POVFORK, and the original article being reduced to events after that event (ironically). And it's been done without WP:CONSENSUS. This should be redirected to its existing article, and if the post-2016 events need to have an article, that should be discussed, not the original event. Mar4d ( talk) 18:18, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
- Speedy Keep. Over 84,000 bytes of article was created in according to WP:SPINOUT. It's a reasonable split and there was agreement between at least 4 editors in good standing per Talk:India–Pakistan border skirmishes (2016–present)#Closure of status or change of title. Raymond3023 ( talk) 18:30, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
- WP:SPINOUT doesn't say the main subject of an article should be entirely deleted from its own article, and pasted onto a new page. That's what a WP:POVFORK is. Mar4d ( talk) 18:38, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
- Keep. Firstly, the article India–Pakistan border skirmishes (2016–present) (formerly called India–Pakistan military confrontation (2016–present)) had clearly gone beyond it's earlier coverage. The original article also covered the constant border skirmishes which occurred after the Indian claim of a "surgical strike". The end result was a massive article which covered a huge range of incidents from end of September 2016 to present. However, there is one incident among this which is WP:EVENT which had a lasting effect, had sufficient depth and duration of coverage, and importantly was covered by a diversity of international media and formed a major basis for two books. The content on this article was taken from the original article and is covered by a huge number of diverse, neutral sources over a sufficiently long duration of time. The content of this article was long standing in the original article and itself does not violate neutrality (the editors do not disagree on the CONTENT of the article). The nominator him/herself agrees that there should be a distinct article for the events following the 2016 event but that should not be this article but another article (this entire logic seems weird to me). Next, they point to a page move discussion (which happened in November 2016) that happened on a page which was not primarily about the "surgical strike" event but about numerous associated cross-border firing events between India and Pakistan. I strongly believe that the nominator wants is a page move on this article rather a page delete and this is not the right forum for this. Last, on the discussion of a POV name, the word "strike" is defined by Merriam Webster as as "to engage in battle, to make a military attack". To me the name simply implies an attack by Indian on LOC which is supported by numerous independent sources ( [1], [2], [3]). This name does not imply that India crossed the LOC just that India initiated an attack. I fail to see how the article name violates POV (of course other editors might disagree) and I am happy to have that discussion but this a forum for deletion of an article not it's move. Adamgerber80 ( talk) 19:16, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
- You are completely incorrect. When the article was created, it was on the "surgical strike" - and the page move discussion centered on that. The rest of your argument simply doesn't make sense because you're suggesting moving something from Article A to Article B, when A already has an article, and making Article A about an unrelated topic which Article A wasn't created for in the first place, and which happened way after Article A occured.
Mar4d (
talk) 19:31, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
- Can you please explain to me how India–Pakistan military confrontation (2016–present) was only about the "surgical strike" at it's version on 1 May 2018? The article clearly had gone beyond it and encompassed every border firing event which took place between India and Pakistan. And it was coincidentally you who moved this page from 2016 India–Pakistan military confrontation to 2016–present India–Pakistan military confrontation on 23 May 2017 indicating that you yourself believed that the article had gone beyond just the coverage of the strike itself ( [4]). If you indeed believed that 2016 India–Pakistan military confrontation was only about the "surgical strike" why did you move the page? Adamgerber80 ( talk) 19:44, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
- You are completely incorrect. When the article was created, it was on the "surgical strike" - and the page move discussion centered on that. The rest of your argument simply doesn't make sense because you're suggesting moving something from Article A to Article B, when A already has an article, and making Article A about an unrelated topic which Article A wasn't created for in the first place, and which happened way after Article A occured.
Mar4d (
talk) 19:31, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
- Speedy Keep. First, Mar4d, the information in the article India–Pakistan border skirmishes (2016–present) was not entirely deleted as you say. As per talk page discussions, 5-6 short paragraphs were left as a summary of the event that is the main subject of the 2016 Indian Line of Control strike article, along with a link to the strike article. Second, again contrary to what you said, consensus was indeed achieved on the talk page of the skirmishes article among multiple editors to branch of the subject of the strike article into its own article since it was concluded it warranted to have its own. Finally, the main subject of the skirmishes article is not the strike, it went beyond that and included all of the clashes that have taken place over the last two years. We have stated that the strike article covers a sub-event of the skirmishes article. To put it simply, the strike was one notable battle within the overall conflict that are the skirmishes. EkoGraf ( talk) 19:46, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
- Speedy Keep - I suggest WP:SNOW (I read AfD instructions before jumping into these discussions dw =)) -- VitalPower ( talk) 20:02, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. VitalPower ( talk) 20:10, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
- Keep - Notable event that should have a page. The nom is going OTT with the usual "POV this, POV that" allegations. I will just list a selection of sources that cover the event reasonably:
- M. Ilyas Khan (23 October 2016), "India's 'surgical strikes' in Kashmir: Truth or illusion?", BBC News, retrieved 23 October 2016
- India and Pakistan: Reversing roles, The Economist, 8 October 2016.
- Nitin A. Gokhale, The Inside Story of India's 2016 'Surgical Strikes', The Diplomat, 23 September 2017.
- Ankit Panda, Lessons From India's 'Surgical Strikes', One Year Later, The Diplomat, 29 September 2017.
- Comment - This article is contentious enough. So we should wait for an admin to close it. --
- Keep - Major geopolitical event with significant media coverage. Passes WP:EVENT in general and WP:EFFECT in particular. Razer( talk) 17:35, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
- Speedy Keep Nominator has failed to explain any justifiable reason for the deletion. Based on what the Nom has said it appears he has a problem with the current article title and is not happy with the title due to his POV, if so he should start a discussion for renaming and not an AfD. The title in itself is neutral and has been decided after lot of discussions and consensus on talk. The article has been split as per the policies of WP:EVENT after getting consensus by the Author. Article is subject of major event with international response from several countries. As of 2018 the article is notable enough to satisfy WP:GNG. Article is also the subject of a History Channel Documentary. The article has a significant exposure in reliable sources easily passes the WP:GNG to keep. I am sad to say this but the deletion nomination appears to be a clear case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT-- DBig Xray 18:48, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
- Keep - Passes WP:GNG. -- Dane talk 19:48, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
- Redirect or merge to meet required policy and content guidelines.-- NadirAli نادر علی ( talk) 03:44, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
Redirect or Merge, have to agree with the nominator's rationale. It's a WP:CFORK and WP:POVFORK. -- Uncle Sargam ( talk) 04:43, 14 May 2018 (UTC)blocked as a sockpuppet
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz Humbug! 06:28, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz Humbug! 06:28, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Keep notable subject. Article title and contents are editing decisions. FloridaArmy ( talk) 00:13, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Pakistan-related deletion discussions. Auntie Agni ( talk) 04:51, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
Redirect / merge to the original article, from where this WP:CFORK / WP:POVFORK was harvested. It also seems to be WP:COPYVIO because EkoGraf didn't say where they were copying content from, in the first 3 edits they made. -- Auntie Agni ( talk) 05:02, 22 May 2018 (UTC)blocked as a sockpuppet
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. A Train talk 08:52, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
2016 Indian Line of Control strike
- 2016 Indian Line of Control strike ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Textbook definition of WP:CFORK and WP:POVFORK. Entire article is copy-pasted out of India–Pakistan border skirmishes (2016–present), which was created in 2016 on this exact "strike". If anything, the post-2016 skirmishes should have an article, not this 2016 conflict which has an existing article. The title ("Indian Line of Control strike") is also inherently WP:POV and in violation of consensus here which was in favour of "military confrontation" as per neutral sources.
This is a rare example of a Wikipedia article being spun (from its own article) into a new duplicate article, re-Christened under a rejected title per WP:POVFORK, and the original article being reduced to events after that event (ironically). And it's been done without WP:CONSENSUS. This should be redirected to its existing article, and if the post-2016 events need to have an article, that should be discussed, not the original event. Mar4d ( talk) 18:18, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
- Speedy Keep. Over 84,000 bytes of article was created in according to WP:SPINOUT. It's a reasonable split and there was agreement between at least 4 editors in good standing per Talk:India–Pakistan border skirmishes (2016–present)#Closure of status or change of title. Raymond3023 ( talk) 18:30, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
- WP:SPINOUT doesn't say the main subject of an article should be entirely deleted from its own article, and pasted onto a new page. That's what a WP:POVFORK is. Mar4d ( talk) 18:38, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
- Keep. Firstly, the article India–Pakistan border skirmishes (2016–present) (formerly called India–Pakistan military confrontation (2016–present)) had clearly gone beyond it's earlier coverage. The original article also covered the constant border skirmishes which occurred after the Indian claim of a "surgical strike". The end result was a massive article which covered a huge range of incidents from end of September 2016 to present. However, there is one incident among this which is WP:EVENT which had a lasting effect, had sufficient depth and duration of coverage, and importantly was covered by a diversity of international media and formed a major basis for two books. The content on this article was taken from the original article and is covered by a huge number of diverse, neutral sources over a sufficiently long duration of time. The content of this article was long standing in the original article and itself does not violate neutrality (the editors do not disagree on the CONTENT of the article). The nominator him/herself agrees that there should be a distinct article for the events following the 2016 event but that should not be this article but another article (this entire logic seems weird to me). Next, they point to a page move discussion (which happened in November 2016) that happened on a page which was not primarily about the "surgical strike" event but about numerous associated cross-border firing events between India and Pakistan. I strongly believe that the nominator wants is a page move on this article rather a page delete and this is not the right forum for this. Last, on the discussion of a POV name, the word "strike" is defined by Merriam Webster as as "to engage in battle, to make a military attack". To me the name simply implies an attack by Indian on LOC which is supported by numerous independent sources ( [1], [2], [3]). This name does not imply that India crossed the LOC just that India initiated an attack. I fail to see how the article name violates POV (of course other editors might disagree) and I am happy to have that discussion but this a forum for deletion of an article not it's move. Adamgerber80 ( talk) 19:16, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
- You are completely incorrect. When the article was created, it was on the "surgical strike" - and the page move discussion centered on that. The rest of your argument simply doesn't make sense because you're suggesting moving something from Article A to Article B, when A already has an article, and making Article A about an unrelated topic which Article A wasn't created for in the first place, and which happened way after Article A occured.
Mar4d (
talk) 19:31, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
- Can you please explain to me how India–Pakistan military confrontation (2016–present) was only about the "surgical strike" at it's version on 1 May 2018? The article clearly had gone beyond it and encompassed every border firing event which took place between India and Pakistan. And it was coincidentally you who moved this page from 2016 India–Pakistan military confrontation to 2016–present India–Pakistan military confrontation on 23 May 2017 indicating that you yourself believed that the article had gone beyond just the coverage of the strike itself ( [4]). If you indeed believed that 2016 India–Pakistan military confrontation was only about the "surgical strike" why did you move the page? Adamgerber80 ( talk) 19:44, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
- You are completely incorrect. When the article was created, it was on the "surgical strike" - and the page move discussion centered on that. The rest of your argument simply doesn't make sense because you're suggesting moving something from Article A to Article B, when A already has an article, and making Article A about an unrelated topic which Article A wasn't created for in the first place, and which happened way after Article A occured.
Mar4d (
talk) 19:31, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
- Speedy Keep. First, Mar4d, the information in the article India–Pakistan border skirmishes (2016–present) was not entirely deleted as you say. As per talk page discussions, 5-6 short paragraphs were left as a summary of the event that is the main subject of the 2016 Indian Line of Control strike article, along with a link to the strike article. Second, again contrary to what you said, consensus was indeed achieved on the talk page of the skirmishes article among multiple editors to branch of the subject of the strike article into its own article since it was concluded it warranted to have its own. Finally, the main subject of the skirmishes article is not the strike, it went beyond that and included all of the clashes that have taken place over the last two years. We have stated that the strike article covers a sub-event of the skirmishes article. To put it simply, the strike was one notable battle within the overall conflict that are the skirmishes. EkoGraf ( talk) 19:46, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
- Speedy Keep - I suggest WP:SNOW (I read AfD instructions before jumping into these discussions dw =)) -- VitalPower ( talk) 20:02, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. VitalPower ( talk) 20:10, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
- Keep - Notable event that should have a page. The nom is going OTT with the usual "POV this, POV that" allegations. I will just list a selection of sources that cover the event reasonably:
- M. Ilyas Khan (23 October 2016), "India's 'surgical strikes' in Kashmir: Truth or illusion?", BBC News, retrieved 23 October 2016
- India and Pakistan: Reversing roles, The Economist, 8 October 2016.
- Nitin A. Gokhale, The Inside Story of India's 2016 'Surgical Strikes', The Diplomat, 23 September 2017.
- Ankit Panda, Lessons From India's 'Surgical Strikes', One Year Later, The Diplomat, 29 September 2017.
- Comment - This article is contentious enough. So we should wait for an admin to close it. --
- Keep - Major geopolitical event with significant media coverage. Passes WP:EVENT in general and WP:EFFECT in particular. Razer( talk) 17:35, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
- Speedy Keep Nominator has failed to explain any justifiable reason for the deletion. Based on what the Nom has said it appears he has a problem with the current article title and is not happy with the title due to his POV, if so he should start a discussion for renaming and not an AfD. The title in itself is neutral and has been decided after lot of discussions and consensus on talk. The article has been split as per the policies of WP:EVENT after getting consensus by the Author. Article is subject of major event with international response from several countries. As of 2018 the article is notable enough to satisfy WP:GNG. Article is also the subject of a History Channel Documentary. The article has a significant exposure in reliable sources easily passes the WP:GNG to keep. I am sad to say this but the deletion nomination appears to be a clear case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT-- DBig Xray 18:48, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
- Keep - Passes WP:GNG. -- Dane talk 19:48, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
- Redirect or merge to meet required policy and content guidelines.-- NadirAli نادر علی ( talk) 03:44, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
Redirect or Merge, have to agree with the nominator's rationale. It's a WP:CFORK and WP:POVFORK. -- Uncle Sargam ( talk) 04:43, 14 May 2018 (UTC)blocked as a sockpuppet
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz Humbug! 06:28, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz Humbug! 06:28, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
- Keep notable subject. Article title and contents are editing decisions. FloridaArmy ( talk) 00:13, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Pakistan-related deletion discussions. Auntie Agni ( talk) 04:51, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
Redirect / merge to the original article, from where this WP:CFORK / WP:POVFORK was harvested. It also seems to be WP:COPYVIO because EkoGraf didn't say where they were copying content from, in the first 3 edits they made. -- Auntie Agni ( talk) 05:02, 22 May 2018 (UTC)blocked as a sockpuppet
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.