This is a collection of discussions on the deletion of articles related to Poetry. It is one of many
deletion lists coordinated by
WikiProject Deletion sorting. Anyone can help maintain the list on this page.
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You can also add and remove other discussions (
prod,
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Further information
For further information see Wikipedia's
deletion policy and
WP:AfD for general information about Articles for Deletion, including a list of article deletions sorted by day of nomination.
Archived discussions (starting from September 2007) may be found at:
This does not meet Wikipedia's
notability guidelines. There is not much that the sources say about this location. I cannot even find it mentioned in articles about the author's fiction. This doesn't have enough sources for a viable article.
Jontesta (
talk) 21:09, 12 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Merge to
Edwin Arlington Robinson - I am finding some discussion about the town, but its largely in relation to the poet himself and how it was basically a slightly fictionalized version of his hometown. This seems like a
WP:NOPAGE situation where it would be best discussed in the main article on the poet and his work rather than split out as a separate page.
Rorshacma (
talk) 23:34, 12 June 2024 (UTC)reply
This poet appears to be non-notable under
WP:GNG,
WP:NACADEMIC, and
WP:NAUTHOR. His books of poetry are functionally self-published (Cahuenga Press is a cooperative
owned and run by five "poet-members" that exists to publish its owners' work). No substantial reviews of his work appear to be available. I can only find one item of
WP:SIGCOV, a
local news story. The rest are
WP:TRIVIALMENTIONS or non-independent mentions in affiliated sources (e.g. college magazine).
Dclemens1971 (
talk) 17:42, 12 June 2024 (UTC)reply
This subject fails
WP:GNG because only insubstantial coverage is indicated in articles that are all topically about her spouse, or published by her own school. She fails
WP:GNG today and is unlikely to garner more substantial coverage in the future due to her being so dead.
JFHJr (
㊟) 05:11, 2 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment - I have added in reviews of two of her publications. She wrote under the name Elizabeth Young, which makes searching for discussions of her work a challenge. I suspect there is more coverage of her work, but it requires sifting through articles about similar people.
DaffodilOcean (
talk) 21:41, 2 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep - I find reviews for multiple books. I also added back some of the text that had been removed prior to the AFD nomination. While this text needs citations (and is now marked as such), it is useful to know in order to find the sources needed.
DaffodilOcean (
talk) 12:10, 3 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, LizRead!Talk! 07:33, 9 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Fails
WP:GNG and
WP:BIO. References cited are unclear, poorly formatted and mostly incapable of verification. Unencyclopedic tone. Created and edited by sockpuppets.
Geoff | Who, me? 16:02, 27 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep: Although the article indeed has a lot of problems, these cannot be a reason for deletion. (The most major issue is the large amount of unsourced content, which may simply be removed.) The topic appears to be notable. There is significant coverage among a multitude of sources:
[1][2][3][4][5] (The last two sources are solely on the details of his life and works.)
Aintabli (
talk) 03:29, 28 May 2024 (UTC)reply
I did not find any references to the information added to the wiki page in the citations you provided. All I found were statements by those authors and nothing else.
HeritageGuardian (
talk) 20:50, 28 May 2024 (UTC) —
HeritageGuardian (
talk •
contribs) has made
few or no other edits outside this topic. reply
I have checked all your citations from 1 to 5. None of them has any references to the claims made in them and in this Wikipedia article. If you think that I missed them, then you are welcome to present any documentations.
HeritageGuardian (
talk) 05:29, 29 May 2024 (UTC) —
HeritageGuardian (
talk •
contribs) has made
few or no other edits outside this topic. reply
That's not the point of those links.
Aintabli (
talk) 14:59, 29 May 2024 (UTC)reply
I took a look to this page
https://az.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miskin_Abdal. There are a lot of absurd statements, like Safavid King Sultan Hossain visited some village in nowadays republic of Armenia. Safavid King Ismail gave an order to M. Abdal and etc. They are absurd, because kings' orders were not given to anybody, but kept in chancery or diwan. There is no record of King Sultan Hossain visiting some village in that region. It seems articles about this person are hoaxes.
HeritageGuardian (
talk) 16:17, 29 May 2024 (UTC) —
HeritageGuardian (
talk •
contribs) has made
few or no other edits outside this topic. reply
The Azerbaijani-language version has nothing to do with the English Wikipedia.
Aintabli (
talk) 17:03, 29 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, LizRead!Talk! 20:51, 3 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I have investigated this article in depth and found out that this is a hoax for the following reasons.
1. All citation for this article do not reference any well known Safavid literature, although in its first paragraph, it is stated that "many years was in charge of foreign affairs of the Safavid state under Shah Ismail Khatai (1487–1524)." Names of all persons who were in charge of foreign affairs during Shah Ismail are well known. None of them was an ashugh or had nickname Miskin Abdal or was from nowadays territory of Armenia as stated in this article
2. At page 38 of the first citation "
https://www.academia.edu/40616613" there is a picture supposedly of an order given to M. Abdal by Safavid King Ismail. However, it is fake. Because non of the Safavids Kings had that kind of large seal and usually Safavid orders have seal at the top of the text but not at the bottom. Also, kings' orders were not given to anybody, but kept in chancery.
3. In the first paragraph of this article it is stated "He was the founder of the ashugh school" and again referred to this book "
https://www.academia.edu/40616613, where there is no references proving this statement.
4. The second paragraph states "One of the brightest figures in the history of Azerbaijan, he played an important role in the development of science and art." and refers to a book, where I did not find any proof to this statement. Only statement by its author.
5. The third paragraph states "Under the name of Miskin, Abdal (Architect of the soul) was the creator of the literature of Azerbaijani minstrels - ashugh folk singers." to which there is no reference.
6. The fourth paragraph states "After many years of service at the court of Shah Ismail I Khatai, in 1524 he returned home. He opened the first school in Sariyagub ... " and refers to
/info/en/?search=Miskin_Abdal#cite_ref-3 However, the referred content does not have anything related to the above statement. So, the fourth paragraph is a completely false statement.
7. The rest of the article until the last sentence does not have any citations, so I accepted it as statement of users who created this article. Btw those users were identified as sockpuppets
Delete, mostly per
WP:INUNIVERSE and
WP:V and
WP:TNT. Searching his name on Google Scholar finds sources whose reliability I cannot evaluate stating that there was a sufi by this name at about this time period. For anything beyond that I get the impression that much is folklore (specifically, the epic "Miskin Abdal and Senuber" briefly mentioned in our article). Our article itself reads like it was transcribed from that epic, or maybe from a children's history book based on it. We need to clearly distinguish fact from folklore here, but we cannot do it with the current basis. —
David Eppstein (
talk) 17:57, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply
@
David Eppstein Miskin Abdal was definitely not a fictional character. TNT feels really off here as I have pointed out given the problem is unsourced content, which I have removed now (thus not so difficult to solve). And the rest is easily solvable as the content is not much. Verifiability cannot be a reason for deletion alone, unless it is TNT. The
results from Google Scholar are mostly academic journals. If the concern is their reliability, we would be better off assessing each one (44 results with one spelling) instead of making general statements. There is also a plethora of other sources that can be found on Google Books as well as those I have additionally linked above. Respectfully, I find this vote misguided since most sources are not in English, plus we most likely have a
WP:SPA above (please check their edit history), who has gone so far to claim this is a hoax despite obvious
WP:SIGCOV.
Aintabli (
talk) 18:19, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply
When you say "Miskin Abdal was definitely not a fictional character" it is difficult to determine whether you mean that (1) someone by that name existed, (2) nobody ever wrote any fiction about him, or (3) the content of our article is not based on fiction. Those are different things and we need to distinguish them clearly. If there is verifiable and reliable content about the factual details of his life, that needs to be sourced. If our article is entirely based on an epic, it should be about the epic, not the character in it. So far the best evidence we have is a Google Books link that tells us the title of a book, which doesn't help resolve these questions. —
David Eppstein (
talk) 18:48, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply
@
David Eppstein, I mean that someone by that name existed. Those are not the only sources, and Google Books has limited preview. See
this for example, which is his entry in a biographical dictionary published by a university in Turkey. This is just an example of the variety of sources available about his life and not just his works.
Aintabli (
talk) 18:56, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Here are two more sources "solely" about him:
paper from an academic journal and a
book At this point, there are at least 5 publications shared here that delve into the details of his life and numerous other that are partially about him. As I have underlined, taking Miskin Abdal as a fictional character would be a huge misunderstanding, which you appear to have partially based your vote on. TNT leaves an open door to recreation, and as far as I know, is meant to be for incurable articles that would be timesinks to edit. A merely 50-100 word article does not fit into that description.
Aintabli (
talk) 22:43, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The
first citation you gave simply repeats statements made in book
by İsmayılov Hüseyn, which I have already investigated and found out that it does not have any reliable references.
The
second citation you gave, a paper from academic journal, references some newspaper articles. A newspaper article does not provide a reliable source. It is expected that a scientific journal gives a reference to original documents.
The
last book you cited basically repeats content of the first book from the citations of this article. On page 43 a picture of a Safavid king order is presented, which is fake. Because none of the Safavid Kings had that kind of large seal and usually Safavid orders have seal at the top of the text but not at the bottom.
Moreover, I did not find any reliable information about epic "Miskin Abdal and Senuber" that was mentioned in this article and in book by İsmayılov, Hüseyn. This looks suspicious because an epic was mentioned only in 2001. This is too late for an epic. It could be invented as a part of this hoax.
I noticed that you removed much of the text and left the first paragraph intact, where a statement is made "... statesman, who for many years was in charge of foreign affairs of the Safavid state under Shah Ismail Khatai (1487–1524). He was the founder of the ashugh school" This statement is false. I have already commented on it. Will repeat again. Names of all persons who were in charge of foreign affairs during Shah Ismail are well known. None of them had nickname Miskin Abdal or founded an ashugh school.
Overall, the more I investigated this article, the more I get convinced that a group of people tried to publish the same or similar content in various news articles and books, to create impression about existence of a known person.
HeritageGuardian (
talk) 05:07, 11 June 2024 (UTC) —
HeritageGuardian (
talk •
contribs) has made
few or no other edits outside this topic. reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, signed, Rosguilltalk 13:44, 11 June 2024 (UTC)reply
This is a collection of discussions on the deletion of articles related to Poetry. It is one of many
deletion lists coordinated by
WikiProject Deletion sorting. Anyone can help maintain the list on this page.
Adding a new AfD discussion
Adding an AfD to this page does not add it to the main page at
WP:AFD. Similarly, removing an AfD from this page does not remove it from the main page at
WP:AFD. If you want to nominate an article for deletion, go through the process on that page before adding it to this page. To add a discussion to this page, follow these steps:
Edit this page and add {{Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/PageName}} to the top of the list. Replace "PageName" with the relevant article name, i.e. the one on the existing AFD discussion. Also, indicate the title of the article in the edit summary as it is particularly helpful to add a link to the article in the edit summary. When you save the page, the discussion will automatically appear.
You should also tag the AfD by adding {{subst:delsort|Poetry|~~~~}} to it, which will inform editors that it has been listed here. You may place this tag above or below the nomination statement or at the end of the discussion thread.
Closed AfD discussions are automatically removed by
a bot.
Other types of discussions
You can also add and remove other discussions (
prod,
CfD,
TfD etc.) related to Poetry. For the other XfD's, the process is the same as AfD (except {{Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/PageName}} is used for MFD and {{transclude xfd}} for the rest). For PRODs, adding a link with {{prodded}} will suffice.
Further information
For further information see Wikipedia's
deletion policy and
WP:AfD for general information about Articles for Deletion, including a list of article deletions sorted by day of nomination.
Archived discussions (starting from September 2007) may be found at:
This does not meet Wikipedia's
notability guidelines. There is not much that the sources say about this location. I cannot even find it mentioned in articles about the author's fiction. This doesn't have enough sources for a viable article.
Jontesta (
talk) 21:09, 12 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Merge to
Edwin Arlington Robinson - I am finding some discussion about the town, but its largely in relation to the poet himself and how it was basically a slightly fictionalized version of his hometown. This seems like a
WP:NOPAGE situation where it would be best discussed in the main article on the poet and his work rather than split out as a separate page.
Rorshacma (
talk) 23:34, 12 June 2024 (UTC)reply
This poet appears to be non-notable under
WP:GNG,
WP:NACADEMIC, and
WP:NAUTHOR. His books of poetry are functionally self-published (Cahuenga Press is a cooperative
owned and run by five "poet-members" that exists to publish its owners' work). No substantial reviews of his work appear to be available. I can only find one item of
WP:SIGCOV, a
local news story. The rest are
WP:TRIVIALMENTIONS or non-independent mentions in affiliated sources (e.g. college magazine).
Dclemens1971 (
talk) 17:42, 12 June 2024 (UTC)reply
This subject fails
WP:GNG because only insubstantial coverage is indicated in articles that are all topically about her spouse, or published by her own school. She fails
WP:GNG today and is unlikely to garner more substantial coverage in the future due to her being so dead.
JFHJr (
㊟) 05:11, 2 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Comment - I have added in reviews of two of her publications. She wrote under the name Elizabeth Young, which makes searching for discussions of her work a challenge. I suspect there is more coverage of her work, but it requires sifting through articles about similar people.
DaffodilOcean (
talk) 21:41, 2 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep - I find reviews for multiple books. I also added back some of the text that had been removed prior to the AFD nomination. While this text needs citations (and is now marked as such), it is useful to know in order to find the sources needed.
DaffodilOcean (
talk) 12:10, 3 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, LizRead!Talk! 07:33, 9 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Fails
WP:GNG and
WP:BIO. References cited are unclear, poorly formatted and mostly incapable of verification. Unencyclopedic tone. Created and edited by sockpuppets.
Geoff | Who, me? 16:02, 27 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Keep: Although the article indeed has a lot of problems, these cannot be a reason for deletion. (The most major issue is the large amount of unsourced content, which may simply be removed.) The topic appears to be notable. There is significant coverage among a multitude of sources:
[1][2][3][4][5] (The last two sources are solely on the details of his life and works.)
Aintabli (
talk) 03:29, 28 May 2024 (UTC)reply
I did not find any references to the information added to the wiki page in the citations you provided. All I found were statements by those authors and nothing else.
HeritageGuardian (
talk) 20:50, 28 May 2024 (UTC) —
HeritageGuardian (
talk •
contribs) has made
few or no other edits outside this topic. reply
I have checked all your citations from 1 to 5. None of them has any references to the claims made in them and in this Wikipedia article. If you think that I missed them, then you are welcome to present any documentations.
HeritageGuardian (
talk) 05:29, 29 May 2024 (UTC) —
HeritageGuardian (
talk •
contribs) has made
few or no other edits outside this topic. reply
That's not the point of those links.
Aintabli (
talk) 14:59, 29 May 2024 (UTC)reply
I took a look to this page
https://az.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miskin_Abdal. There are a lot of absurd statements, like Safavid King Sultan Hossain visited some village in nowadays republic of Armenia. Safavid King Ismail gave an order to M. Abdal and etc. They are absurd, because kings' orders were not given to anybody, but kept in chancery or diwan. There is no record of King Sultan Hossain visiting some village in that region. It seems articles about this person are hoaxes.
HeritageGuardian (
talk) 16:17, 29 May 2024 (UTC) —
HeritageGuardian (
talk •
contribs) has made
few or no other edits outside this topic. reply
The Azerbaijani-language version has nothing to do with the English Wikipedia.
Aintabli (
talk) 17:03, 29 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, LizRead!Talk! 20:51, 3 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I have investigated this article in depth and found out that this is a hoax for the following reasons.
1. All citation for this article do not reference any well known Safavid literature, although in its first paragraph, it is stated that "many years was in charge of foreign affairs of the Safavid state under Shah Ismail Khatai (1487–1524)." Names of all persons who were in charge of foreign affairs during Shah Ismail are well known. None of them was an ashugh or had nickname Miskin Abdal or was from nowadays territory of Armenia as stated in this article
2. At page 38 of the first citation "
https://www.academia.edu/40616613" there is a picture supposedly of an order given to M. Abdal by Safavid King Ismail. However, it is fake. Because non of the Safavids Kings had that kind of large seal and usually Safavid orders have seal at the top of the text but not at the bottom. Also, kings' orders were not given to anybody, but kept in chancery.
3. In the first paragraph of this article it is stated "He was the founder of the ashugh school" and again referred to this book "
https://www.academia.edu/40616613, where there is no references proving this statement.
4. The second paragraph states "One of the brightest figures in the history of Azerbaijan, he played an important role in the development of science and art." and refers to a book, where I did not find any proof to this statement. Only statement by its author.
5. The third paragraph states "Under the name of Miskin, Abdal (Architect of the soul) was the creator of the literature of Azerbaijani minstrels - ashugh folk singers." to which there is no reference.
6. The fourth paragraph states "After many years of service at the court of Shah Ismail I Khatai, in 1524 he returned home. He opened the first school in Sariyagub ... " and refers to
/info/en/?search=Miskin_Abdal#cite_ref-3 However, the referred content does not have anything related to the above statement. So, the fourth paragraph is a completely false statement.
7. The rest of the article until the last sentence does not have any citations, so I accepted it as statement of users who created this article. Btw those users were identified as sockpuppets
Delete, mostly per
WP:INUNIVERSE and
WP:V and
WP:TNT. Searching his name on Google Scholar finds sources whose reliability I cannot evaluate stating that there was a sufi by this name at about this time period. For anything beyond that I get the impression that much is folklore (specifically, the epic "Miskin Abdal and Senuber" briefly mentioned in our article). Our article itself reads like it was transcribed from that epic, or maybe from a children's history book based on it. We need to clearly distinguish fact from folklore here, but we cannot do it with the current basis. —
David Eppstein (
talk) 17:57, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply
@
David Eppstein Miskin Abdal was definitely not a fictional character. TNT feels really off here as I have pointed out given the problem is unsourced content, which I have removed now (thus not so difficult to solve). And the rest is easily solvable as the content is not much. Verifiability cannot be a reason for deletion alone, unless it is TNT. The
results from Google Scholar are mostly academic journals. If the concern is their reliability, we would be better off assessing each one (44 results with one spelling) instead of making general statements. There is also a plethora of other sources that can be found on Google Books as well as those I have additionally linked above. Respectfully, I find this vote misguided since most sources are not in English, plus we most likely have a
WP:SPA above (please check their edit history), who has gone so far to claim this is a hoax despite obvious
WP:SIGCOV.
Aintabli (
talk) 18:19, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply
When you say "Miskin Abdal was definitely not a fictional character" it is difficult to determine whether you mean that (1) someone by that name existed, (2) nobody ever wrote any fiction about him, or (3) the content of our article is not based on fiction. Those are different things and we need to distinguish them clearly. If there is verifiable and reliable content about the factual details of his life, that needs to be sourced. If our article is entirely based on an epic, it should be about the epic, not the character in it. So far the best evidence we have is a Google Books link that tells us the title of a book, which doesn't help resolve these questions. —
David Eppstein (
talk) 18:48, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply
@
David Eppstein, I mean that someone by that name existed. Those are not the only sources, and Google Books has limited preview. See
this for example, which is his entry in a biographical dictionary published by a university in Turkey. This is just an example of the variety of sources available about his life and not just his works.
Aintabli (
talk) 18:56, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Here are two more sources "solely" about him:
paper from an academic journal and a
book At this point, there are at least 5 publications shared here that delve into the details of his life and numerous other that are partially about him. As I have underlined, taking Miskin Abdal as a fictional character would be a huge misunderstanding, which you appear to have partially based your vote on. TNT leaves an open door to recreation, and as far as I know, is meant to be for incurable articles that would be timesinks to edit. A merely 50-100 word article does not fit into that description.
Aintabli (
talk) 22:43, 10 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The
first citation you gave simply repeats statements made in book
by İsmayılov Hüseyn, which I have already investigated and found out that it does not have any reliable references.
The
second citation you gave, a paper from academic journal, references some newspaper articles. A newspaper article does not provide a reliable source. It is expected that a scientific journal gives a reference to original documents.
The
last book you cited basically repeats content of the first book from the citations of this article. On page 43 a picture of a Safavid king order is presented, which is fake. Because none of the Safavid Kings had that kind of large seal and usually Safavid orders have seal at the top of the text but not at the bottom.
Moreover, I did not find any reliable information about epic "Miskin Abdal and Senuber" that was mentioned in this article and in book by İsmayılov, Hüseyn. This looks suspicious because an epic was mentioned only in 2001. This is too late for an epic. It could be invented as a part of this hoax.
I noticed that you removed much of the text and left the first paragraph intact, where a statement is made "... statesman, who for many years was in charge of foreign affairs of the Safavid state under Shah Ismail Khatai (1487–1524). He was the founder of the ashugh school" This statement is false. I have already commented on it. Will repeat again. Names of all persons who were in charge of foreign affairs during Shah Ismail are well known. None of them had nickname Miskin Abdal or founded an ashugh school.
Overall, the more I investigated this article, the more I get convinced that a group of people tried to publish the same or similar content in various news articles and books, to create impression about existence of a known person.
HeritageGuardian (
talk) 05:07, 11 June 2024 (UTC) —
HeritageGuardian (
talk •
contribs) has made
few or no other edits outside this topic. reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, signed, Rosguilltalk 13:44, 11 June 2024 (UTC)reply