The result of this discussion was do not move. Gwen Gale ( talk) 00:24, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
There has already been a discussion on the move of those pages based on our policy and guidelines ( here). It was open for + 8 days and there were links on talk pages of most, if not all, articles to be affected. This is an attempt to circumvent what was decided there. Second of all, the points being made here are the exact same-old quite appropriately listed on Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions, which apply entirely, namely "I don't like it", "Wikipedia should be about everything", "just a guideline" and "it doesn't do any harm [because there are redirects]". None of which is valid to justify superseding the English language on the English-language Wikipedia. We have a widely used, different-from-native spelling used throughout the English speaking world, and that is verifiable. Whether those people's families, fellow countrymen or,least of all, Wikipedians think about it personally is of absolutely no consequence in making this determination. We need something verifiable that indicates that, in the English-speaking world — and not in Serbia, Croatia, Russia or China — there is no spelling different-from-native that is preferred and widely used. In the case of tennis players, that would be difficult to imagine, for obvious reasons. Redux ( talk) 16:23, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but you are overreaching. " English-speaking world" refers to the parts of the world where English is either a native language or an official language — in the very Wikipedia article I linked, you will even find a map indicating what, in the mapa mundi, is the "English-speaking world". The term was not invented on Wikipedia, but rather it is an established expression. It is irrelevant to assume that foreigners tend to know grammar or even the basics of the language better than natives. Claiming "ethnocentrism" to justify why the English language should be superseded on the English-langage Wikipedia, in this context, holds as much merit as claiming that this article on the Hungarian-language Wikipedia should be titled "William II of England" — being that a regnal name is also the "official" name by which this person is known in his native language/country. And most especially because it not us, on Wikipedia, who decided or created the different spelling in English, we merely verify that it exists and abide by it. If the very act of coming up with a alternate spelling is right or wrong, it is not for us to say. That would be original research and a point of view. The fact remains that the preferred spelling exists, it is widely used and it is verifiable. For more commentary on this topic, please refer to the already-mentioned discussion on the tennis biographies, and especially to the page Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions (notably, "Wikipedia should be about everything"), which, again, apply exactly here. Redux ( talk) 20:29, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
In the case of tennis-related biographies, we determined that a widely-used version in the English-speaking world exists and is verifiable on official websites of the sport's governing bodies. They use English as their working language, and all material published in the English-speaking world, as well as material from those parts of the world that are online or televised follow that exact spelling. Not once have I, and I suspect anyone else, seen any pattern of spelling of a player such as "Radek Stepanek" differently than the version adopted officially by the ATP in English. And I say pattern, taken into account televized events, news channels both online and printed etc., in the English-speaking world (so please, don't link a a Czech newspaper article to make the point that other spellings exist).
Following our Manual of Style (naming conventions) and policies (verifiability, etc.) and plus using simply common sense, this determination is applicable to all biographies related to tennis. And I say that because tennis happens to be a sport that is widely popular in the English-speaking world, which is why is could happen (I don't know, this is for the sake of example) that the same cannot be said about, say, Cricket, which is only popular in a handful of countries, and not even throughtout the entire English-speaking world (in terms of population percentages, etc.). This is not because tennis receives some kind of "special treatment", but rather because in relation to it, and perhaps not other modalities, we are able to answer positively the 2 main questions: a)is there a different-from-native spelling preferred and used widely in the English-speaking world? and b) is that verifiable?
That said, we still need to make this verification case by case. I've been doing that. In the article
Lili de Alvarez, for example, I was unable to find a profile on the official WTA website; that plus the fact that this is a player from the 1940s caused me to acknowledge that, in that case, I was unable to verify (key word) the state of any given spelling as being preferred and used widely in the English-speaking world, which causes the article title to default to the native spelling. At least until a time when evidence could be presented to that effect, which it was.
I regret immensily the treatment dispensed to
Tennis expert. He started moving articles only after the discussion had concluded, and using the same parameters I was using to move articles. He did nothing wrong. In fact he helped me post the numerous notes and links to that discussion in order to let people know it was ongoing. What I see in his talk page is a post from a user who was unaware of the discussions that had taken place, and assumed, wrongly, that he was doing something out of his own, personal conviction. That was then followed by posts from a single user who happened to disagree with the decision made, and who, apparently, was also unaware of the discussions, the naming conventions and the entire situation of the case. That led to other misunderstandings and even to Tennis expert being threatened with a block for implementing policies and guidelines while backed by a previous, public discussion with consensus to move the articles.
The only truly wrong action was the personal requests to administrators,
such as this, to circumvent the discussion because there "was no real consensus, at least not among administrators", which is completely wrong and highly inappropriate to have been granted.
Redux (
talk)
22:58, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm not really "blaming" anyone for not being aware of the discussions held previously, it happens. Moving those pages back originally was inappropriate, but other people can and did get caught in the wake of that. And I do recognize what Orderinchaos is talking about regarding Tennis expert: there was a misunderstanding concerning Tennis expert's actions, and Orderinchaos apologized for it generously. That would appear to be no problem at all.
However, there was consensus previously reached. You might not have been aware of it, like I said, but there was. I won't simply repeat myself concerning the discussion held and why it pertains to tennis biographies, this has been explained here (in previous comments), in the original discussion and in the AN. Especially considering that the discussion was meant to get consensus for the implementation of previously-existing policies (verifiability, etc.), guidelines (MoS, notably Naming Conventions) and, if I might add, plain logical application of said policies and guidelines, a claim that the discussion held is somehow "not valid" or "insufficient" is completely without merit. It has been explained time and again why this is in reference to tennis biographies. It pertains to tennis (ok, here we go yet again) because the situation relating to tennis is of the nature I have just now explained for the 10th time. That it wouldn't apply to, say, hockey, cricket or spearfishing is exactly why discussions of that nature need to be held for each concrete situation — which should be in line with what people keep saying about case-by-case verification. So claiming that there was no consensus in not correct.
Mentioning consensus among administrators is, I'm afraid, even more wrong. Administrators are not high arbitrators of consensus. If consensus is reached in discussions — and regarding that, see my previous comment above about how the original discussion was conducted — an administrator's job is to abide by it, not decide to either sanction or overturn it.
What all of this ends up looking like, which does not mean that it is of course, and I hope that I'm completely wrong in that regard, is that when one end result is not as expected, the solution found is to discredit it and call for a "higher" or "broader" arena, where the result can be overturned. I am especialy concerned with a comment made previously in this very discussion, about people "not having been contacted" about the original discussion. What that is sounding like to me is "we should have an opportunity to call everyone who agrees with this or that point of view, and see how many heads there are on each side".
Wikipedia is not a democracy, that is not how it works. There is no requirement to call any given people personally to a discussion; in fact, that is canvassing and should not, under no circumstance and under pain of voiding the very consensus reached, be done. Talk pages are meant for discussions on how to improve the project. Since we were having a centralized discussion that would affect a number of articles, notes with links were spreaded throughtout those articles, but without canvassing, which is how discussions are supposed to be held in the first place.
Redux (
talk)
05:46, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
to call any given people personally to a discussion; in fact, that is canvassing
"Bjorn Borg" is the spelling in English that is widely used and preferred in the English-speaking world. That is why our article needs to be at this title. The ATP website is a verifiable source to that effect. In other words, we don't title the article "Bjorn Borg" because the "all-mighty" ATP used that spelling, we do it because the English-speaking world uses that overwhelmingly and this fact is verifiable. Maybe the ATP was the one to introduce that spelling in the first place. Doing the research to identify that is not our job, although we can quote a trustworthy, previously-published source that might make that statement. It is definitely, never ever our job to decide that the act of having come up with a different spelling, omitting the diacritic mark, was philosophically, socially or culturally wrong and take it upon ourselves to "correct the mistake" by ignoring the usage in English on the English-language Wikipedia. That is a point of view and original work, which is not allowed in Wikipedia. Redux ( talk) 04:02, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
At this point, I actually don't know if you are misunderstanding or overreaching. It is quite simple: on the English-language Wikipedia we use the variation in English if it exists and can be verified. This topic is in referrence to tennis players, so you are using a logical fallacy by linking articles on a hockey player and a politician. I've said time and again that we are discussing specific circumstances and that it does not apply to individuals in different circumstances — in fact it's just 2 comments above your own. Yet another fallacy by equating expletive deletions in texts with deciding on our own that what sources are saying is "not what they really mean" because "we all know that the 'actual' spelling is the native spelling". That is original research and a point of view, as I explained above. What you are saying is that we can and should get a "majority" to decide that WP:NPOV can be relativized because we, the community, decided on the correctness of using the spelling adopted in the English-speaking world. Absolutely not the case. There are certain parts of the working of Wikipedia that cannot be relativized: NPOV,
WP:OR and verifiability are some of them.
Further, you are assuming, as an example, that when the English-speaking world says "Radek Stepanek" they actually mean "Radek Štěpánek". That's a point of view and original research. We don't assume, we don't infer. We verify. There is no such thing as we deciding that when the sources say "this" they actually mean "that" ["because otherwise they'd be 'wrong'"].
You are using a straw-man comment by stating something like "using a verified actual name of a person over a more popular spelling with no diacritics would violate NPOV". First, because the spelling used in the English-speaking world can only be used if verified. It is not a question of it being "more popular", it is a question of it being the spelling adopted in the English-speaking world and the fact that this is the English-language Wikipedia, where content is written in English and must default to spellings in English if those exist and are verifiable. Second, because you are implying that the native spelling is the one and true "real" one. There is no such thing in linguistics. To return to the example I gave above, "Erik the Red" is not wrong while "Erik den Røde" is the correct one. A spelling is accurate if it is recognized and adopted by
those who speak the language. We are an encyclopedia, we don't get to decide that this is "wrong and shouldn't be done".
Redux (
talk)
13:11, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
neutral message could be written and sent to parties possibly interested (pro or contra).
As I mentioned on another comment underneath, it's not the point of an article title to assume that people will not read the article and draw conclusions from it. The relevant information needs to be in the article, which is the actual source of information. The title is supposed to be accurate in English, according to certain parameters we adopt. Assuming a logic based on a chaos theory, it would be possible to make an equally valid point that, if we were to link using the native form, the reader would be unaware that there is a spelling in English, that this spelling in English is the one that is actually adopted and recognized in the English-speaking world. As well as that by depriving the reader of such information, we would be doing him or her a disservice. You see? That is clearly reading too much into what a link means. In fact, the very point of hypertexting is exactly to make it possible for the reader to get information on related topics, information which will not be available in the main text s/he is reading at the moment. We are not supposed to convey the entire information in the link, we are supposed to provide the link so that the reader will find the information. Any more than that, and we are speculating and using the speculation to justify superseding the English language, which is something we cannot do. Redux ( talk) 01:05, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Relating to the two "oppose" posts above, although we are not holding a vote, I'm sorry, but none of you seem to have read a single word of what has been said, repeatedly, above. "Misled into believing that the name has no diacritics"? So you didn't read any of the several times I explained that this has no merit for simple reasons:
article titles are not supposed to convey all the information. Not having diacritics on the article title does not mean "hide the fact that the native spelling uses them". That is given in the opening paragraph of the article, in the first sentence if possible. That's not to mention a point in Linguistics, since you are assuming, and this has also been mentioned before, that the native spelling is the only "true" one, which is not the case. If a person's name has a spelling in English that is the one adopted in the English speaking world ("Erik the Red", for maybe the 4th time) than the information "Erik the Red" within the context of the English language — and this is the English-language Wikipedia — is accurate information. The existence of a native spelling that is not the one adopted in English is information that must be in the article, which is what, to use your words, will inform you, not in the article title. The title of the article itself needs to be correct in accordance with certain parameters, which are given by a combination of the Manual of Style (which only follows logic) and certain policies, none of it includes an assumption that people won't read the article and thus we need to convey other bits of information in the title, thus sacrificing the very English language as verified by external sources.
"Reasons for sources omitting diacritics can be brought down to ignorance, laziness or technical restrictions." I explained that yet again earlier today. This is an encyclopedia, we don't get to decide that the reason why the English-speaking world uses a different spelling is "laziness" or anything else. We certainly don't take it upon ourselves to correct the alleged "mistake". That is original research and a point of view. Maybe the English-speaking world is indeed lazy and has come up with diacritic-less spellings for foreigners that happen to become well-known in those countries because they don't want to make new keyboards with keys for the diacritics. That is not our problem. And it is not up to us to assume that this is what took place. Why? Because it is original research. That would be what we, Wikipedian, are assuming heppened; and if that's not bad enough, not only are we speculating on a historical reason for a different spelling, we are also taking the initiative to "correct" the perceived mistake. That makes us a primary source, and that cannot happen. That is not up for interpretation or vote, Wikipedia cannot be a primary source, carrying original work. And certainly not work that Wikipedians came up with themselves by passing judgement on the verified sources. This is, again, ignoring
Wikipedia:Verifiability on the basis of our own understanding of what ought to be, which cannot happen.
Redux (
talk)
21:37, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
You are right, I tripped on the "generalization rock" by stating "every single source", when what need to verify is that a rendition is widely used and the recognizable one in the English-speaking world, and not that nothing else was ever written. But of course, if we look hard enough, we could find references to the native spelling, which is also part of the mostly journalitic nature of the sources we can use to verify facts; for example if we were to find an online story on Novak Djokovic that read something like "Novak Djokovic, whose name is spelled 'Novak Đoković' in his native Serbia(...)". Obviously, that would not be proof that the English-speaking world does not adopt the rendition "Novak Djokovic", which it does, to the point of it being almost empirical.
Concerning the point you just made, if it was a simple question of style, I would agree. But in this case, it is not. We can't chose to ignore established facts because it would be convenient for our article-building process. A similar argument was presented, validly, when people were deciding if the article on the city of New York should be at "New York, New York" or simply "New York". Although the article is now at
New York City, for some time it was at "New York, New York". The argument used was that, although saying just "New York" commonly evokes the city, and not the state of New York, "New York, New York" is also consistent with valid sources, especially US government sources, which consistently use the formula "city name, state name" to refer to cities in the United States; that meant that it was equally valid, which in turn meant that the criteria that would be needed to decide would lie more in a style-based decision. And then, we had the point that when it comes to cities in the US, Wikipedia follows the general standard of "city name, state name", so for consistency, since both forms were equally verifiable, the article could duely be at "New York, New York". That argumentation was perfect. I myself used to think that it was a bit weird having the article at "New York, New York", but I had to accede to that argumentation.
Here, however, it is different. In addition to the fact that New York is a city, and one that is already within the English-speaking world, whereas here we are talking about people, who are not from the English-speaking world but whose names are routinely used in multiple sources, following a specific spelling, the sources — pending individual verification, of course — will normally show that there will be a clear preferred and adopted rendition in English that is different from the native spelling. When that happens, it is no longer really our choice.
The English language (again, on the English-language Wikipedia) and, far more importantly, Verifiability take precedence over our convenience. We need to reflect what the verified sources are telling us, and since circumstances tend to vary (like I said: tennis players and mathematicians are clearly very different instances, so we will not be able to afford both the same treatment) that will necessarily be reflected in the process of building the encyclopedia, which means that, while our string of articles on, for example, slav scientists and politicians will normally, and correctly, include diacritics in their titles, other circumstances exist where we will need to adopt a different pattern. Not one that we created, nor because we wanted to, but rather because we verified that such were the facts in pre-published material.
Redux (
talk)
01:05, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Comment Someone seems to have made a decision all by himself, so it would be nice to send a message to all parties who may possibly be interested in this discussion. Squash Racket ( talk) 03:49, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
That page, as quoted by Mareklug himself on the talk page of the Hantuchova article, is a "how to say" page. That means it is a page meant to show people how to pronounce names in their original language. It would be applicable if we were discussing the absurd possibility of "erradicating" any mention to diacritics from the entire Wikipedia. Since we are discussing article titles, where the spelling is defined by verification that the English-speaking world adopts and recognizes a different spelling widely, a website explaining the existence of the native spelling and the fact that in those languages diacritics are essential to defining how they are pronounced does not vacate the fact (assuming verification, of course) that the English-speaking world adopts a different spelling — spelling, not pronounciation. Wikipedia is covering that, since in the article, which is not the article title, we not only use diacritics in the first sentence of the first paragraph, but we also provide pronounciation guides to make sure readers are informed of what the diacritics mean and how they affect the pronounciation of a word. As a matter of fact, the fact that that person seems to be protesting against the fact that the names are used in English without diacritics serves to actually make the point of widely used in the English-speaking world. A individual who thinks it's wrong does not change that fact, which is what we do need to verify.
You are confusing the article itself with the article title, and assuming that pieces of information that need to be in the article are somehow supposed to be conveyed in the title. It is not the case. The title is defined by verifed usage in English for each subject. I've also mentioned the difference between the title and actual content of the article in my response to Kotniski's post, a little further above.
Redux (
talk)
17:34, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
I take it you didn't notice Kotniski's post and my response above, or you would not be making the exact same point again. So again, but more briefly (for more detail, please read the relevant posts above): article titles are not pronunciation guides; in fact, Wikipedia is not a pronunciation guide. That notwithstanding, we do include information, which is relevant, on how any given word or name might be pronounced. That information, however, is given in the article. It is not, by any measure, the scope of the article's title to provide a pronunciation guide. Sustaining that the diacritics should be in the article, in spite of the fact that, if so verified (as explained multiple times), they are not to be for the reason that otherwise readers will mispronounce the person's name is absolutely not in keeping with how the encyclopedia is organized in terms of article titles. Titles are decided according to parameters that have absolutely nothing to do with making sure that when the reader sees the title, s/he will know exactly how the name or word is pronounced. Again, please read the post above on that regard. Redux ( talk) 17:34, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
My opinion? What exactly is my opinion? That Wikipedians do not get to decide that verified facts are ignorable? That so doing constitutes original research, and a violation of NPOV and WP:Verifiability? Sorry, but that's not my opinion, it's just fundamental policy and you don't need to agree with it. My personal opinion on diacritics is that whatever personal understanding I might have about diacritics is irrelevant; what matters is what the encyclopedia is obliged to do, which is to observe verified facts, which means that the extent of what I believe concerning diacritics is that we use them when we are supposed to, but there are instances where we are not supposed to use them.
Now, your opinion that the English-language spellings is "wrong" is just that: your opinion. And it is being contradicted by verifiable sources, which adopt them extensively. If you say that the sources are "wrong" (philosophically, culturally, phonetically, or whatever), that will, again, be your opinion. Even if I recognize that any given opinion in that regard is philosophically true, because neither your opinion, nor mine, nor the opinions of any number of Wikipedians supersedes WP:Verifiability, we will still reflect the verified facts, since verifiability, not "philosophical truth", is the criterion for inclusion in the encyclopedia.
Redux (
talk)
22:38, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Doesn't do any harm is not a reason to ignore verified facts, which in turn [ignoring verified facts — because we might not believe that it is "worth it"] is a blatant and unacceptable violation of several of our policies. Redux ( talk) 20:40, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
And with all due respect, this is not a vote. The only reason why I keep posting is because people keep making the same points over and over and over again, presumably because they don't read any of what has been written before. We are not doing a head count, so it's not a question of waiting to see how many people "understand and support". And I'm not expressing my opinion, I am explaining that original research and points of views are not going to be decision-making processes in Wikipedia. That you yourself called for "majority preference" and "respecting each others preferences" to decide is an indication that you either didn't read what I've written several times or you misunderstood something. Majority does not decide on ignoring WP:OR, Wikipedia:Verifiability and WP:NPOV, and it doesn't decide to supersede the English language on the English-language Wikipedia. If majority is saying that we can overlook verified facts, I'm afraid it will be irrelevant to make headcounts ( Wikipedia is not a democracy). If people would start making new, valid points, and not "opposing" in a discussion while citing personal views or askewed interpretations (and I mean that technically, not personally) of how this project works, we could move on appropriately. Redux ( talk) 20:58, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
You seem to be referring to my position as if I was expressing a personal point of view that diacritics should be removed. I'm not. I neither prefer nor reject diacritics. As long as in accordance with fundamental policy, Wikipedia fully supports use of diacritics, and so do I — and if I didn't it would be irrelevant, Wikipedia still supports it and that's all that matters. However, what some have said here is that although [the established-because-verifiable fact that] the English-speaking world has adopted a different spelling, which, per the MoS and common sense means that article titles need to follow that spelling, we are going to take a vote to decide that "this is wrong"/"it's disrespectful"/"it's not the same as we are doing on articles on slav mathematicians or politicans", and thus we should simply ignore it, or that we should ignore it because there are other articles where we do use diacritics, that is, ignoring verified facts because we, Wikipedians, prefer it and/or think it is right. All of this is both original research and a point of view, so it is irrlevant that I agree with the philosophical truth they might be stating, because that's irrelevant for a decision regarding content to be made. And that's when a minimally organized rationale is given, which is not always. Take a look at what the person who posted immediately above your first post wrote.
That connects with the next fundamental point: this is not a democracy and we are not taking a vote. Many, many people here seem to be under the impression that if enough people "oppose" per [the points I've just summarized] (original reserach), we can decide that a verified fact is ignorable (point of view). This is further demonstrated by the evidence linked above by other users of at least 2 instances of canvassing in relation to this discussion, one of which conducted by an Administrator on the Serbian-language Wikipedia. So that already qualifies as disruptive behavior and POV-pushing. That too will not be legitimized by a vote.
So I'm posting to try to explain that. But the tricky part is, I explain it, and the next person to post [usually, not all of course] just plainly ignores it, sustaining the same positions yet again in different words. And the people I have already explained it to usually don't bother to either reflect or, in some cases, even return, because they might be under the impression that by voting in numbers, they are effectively "blocking" something. Technically, I don't need to get them to agree with anything, because we don't need to get people to agree that WP:No Original Research, NPOV and Verifiability are non-negotiable on Wikipedia. On the one hand, the few who actually took the time to reflect on it, have agreed that us deciding that the widely adopted spelling, when and if verified, is not to be followed for the reasons given does indeed constitutes original reserach and a point of view. On the other hand, there have been people have responded to it by stating that policy should be amended to authorize us to do just that, because the English-speaking world is "wrong" in adopting a different spelling and we are "wrong" to reflect it.
My point in all of this is trying to get people to see that they need to make sustainable points, such as "this is not verifiable because of this and that", and not say "it doesn't matter that it is verifiable, because it is just wrong". Because by stating the latter, contrary to what they might think, they are accomplishing nothing.
Redux (
talk)
22:10, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Recent arguments seem to imply that certain Wikipedians invented diacritics themselves, or that their use is not acceptable in good English. This is simply not the case. Diacritics are widely used in English; they are also widely dropped - there are two acceptable styles, the choice can be made based on which is more appropriate for us. Don't know how e.g. Britannica handles tennis players specifically, but I believe that most serious reference works now tend to use diacritics if practical conditions permit, and Wikipedia certainly does as a general rule. I have argued several times above as to why the pro-diacritic style makes for a better encyclopedia - while that argument remains unrefuted, you can quote all the policy you like. In fact, to avoid regular outbreak of discussions like this, we seriously need to have a clear policy statement on this (if only one reflecting the very widepread and logical current practice, which in a nutshell is to use diacritics regardless of what Google hits might tell us).-- Kotniski ( talk) 04:47, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Strong oppose. I've read through most of this, and I really don't see any strong, reasonable rationale to move them to improper forms. Most US-centric sources are written by writers without the means to type the special characters required, so rather than properly type out the names, they simply anglicanize them. While I think that may be appropriate for a news story, for a formal reference work I think it shows a lack of respect both for the subject and from their originating countries. Also, I don't really think that intarweb hits are going to give a good guideline for this; people are going to type what's most convenient for them. What's most convenient isn't necessarily what makes the most sense, and I think this is one of the cases where THISNUMBERISHUGE really shines. Celarnor Talk to me 07:02, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I've got to say, this is definatly a candidate for WP:LAME. It is fairly simple, in my view, if the person is unknown in English media/literature/the english speaking world or what have you or they are known with diacritics (which does happen) then we use the diacritics. If a person is well known without them, then we don't use them. As the pro-diacritic crowd often say, o is different to ó which is different to ô which is different to ö, so the non diacritic names are something different, a transliteration from non-english latin alphabet to english. Once we get beyond the WP:IDHT aspect of it, it seems simple to me. Narson ( talk) 13:46, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Further to my above comment, I have constructed a germ of a proposal here. It might be more helpful to discuss that general principle than the specific issue of tennis players (whose situation is hardly unique).-- Kotniski ( talk) 05:30, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
No, there is no straw-man argument. For the first part of your argument, you seem to be misunderstanding, and in the second part, you are starting from a
false premise. In the first part because spelling is part of the language; to stick with the example, "Erik the Red" entered the English-language lexis via a process of transliteration of the original in Dannish or Nordic languages; as you mentioned yourself, it then becomes how he is known in English. It is the same process through which "Radek Štěpánek" becomes "Radek Stepanek": transliteration, which is not limited to romanization of non-Latin characters. Rather, it is a process through which a language transfers to its own writing system markings and symbols that are used in the native spelling of any given name or word and which are not recognized in that language (i.e., those who speak it). Diacritics falls within that context.
For the second part, it is obvious enough that the criterion is not "well-known in the English world", and it is also obvious that the fact that some people who are well-known in the English-speaking world have not received spellings in English that may be widely recognized, configuring
usage, does not somehow negates the [verified] fact that other individuals did receive that spelling. Why some did receive it and some didn't? Doesn't matter as far as an encyclopedia is concerned. The criterion is "there is a verified spelling that is verified as being widely used in the English-speaking world". Why and how exactly it happened, and why it happened to some names and not to others, is besides the point; it is not our job to speculate on that. Normally it will happen because the individual is well-known in the English-speaking world. It could also happen for historical reasons, or even other reasons that I'm not even accounting for right now. That is irrelvant, because Wikipedia does not attribute "value" to the reason why it happened in order to discard it if we don't think enough of it.
That said, it is perfectly clear that it is quite possible, and it does happen, that a very well-known person has not had his or her name transliterated, for whatever reason. Saying that would be pretty much stating the obvious.
So it is simple enough: if we can verify that the version exists and is widely used, that means that that name has been transliterated and has entered the lexis of the Engish language with a different spelling. That being the case (pending verification, obviously) it is no longer the case of there being "only one right way to spell" the word can be spelled (so that's a
false premise). Because when that happens, then, as linguistics explain, usage in English defines the "correct" term in English (nothing to do with the native spelling at this point) as the one recognized and adopted in the English language. If you do not use in a formal text that is supposed to be written in English (such as the English-language Wikipedia) you are in fact writting in a different language, which is not to be done on the English-language Wikipedia.
Redux (
talk)
17:35, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Comment. We should follow Wikipeia policies and guidlines. The Policies say use reliable third party English sources, and common names. The most relevant guidline is WP:UE and the current WP:UE guideline is neither overtly hostile to accent marks or friendly. The WP:UE guideline, follows Wikipedia Policies ( WP:V, WP:NOR and WP:Naming conventions) "Use the most commonly used English version of the name of the subject as the title of the article, as you would find it in verifiable reliable sources". and "Wikipedia does not decide what characters are to be used in the name of an article's subject; English usage does. Wikipedia has no rule that titles must be written in certain characters, or that certain characters may not be used. Follow the general usage in English verifiable reliable sources in each case, whatever characters may or may not be used in them." As for names in a page there is a section in the MOS that covers it see Wikipedia:MOS#Foreign terms.
For the majority of foreign names the current guidelines are consistent with Wikipedia policy, but there are two special categories in WP:UE where reliable third party English language sources may not be enough to determine what to use in English. The first is Divided usage in these cases if it can not be agreed what is best, then it is a good idea to put the individual page(s) up for WP:RM to decide the issue (as the use of accent marks is a contentious issue). The second is No established usage in English the suggestion is to use the name in the local language. -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 20:33, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Tennis is actually the issue, because, aside from applicable policies and guidelines that may be applicable in any similar situation, we are precisely considering the concrete verification in the scenario of tennis. The most reliable sources here are the International Tennis Federation (ITF), the Association of Tennis Professionals (ATP) and the Women's Tennis Association (WTA). They are not "sports magazines", they are the highest governing bodies of tennis and the ultimate authoritative sources when it comes to this particular sport. And they all use English as their working (or official) language. Since we are considering players' names' usage in English, which affects article titles, unless the player himself or herself happens to go on the record concerning the usage in English of their own names, it does not get more reliable than those 3 organisms. And that's not to say that a sports magazine, depending on which magazine and of their reputation, can't be a reliable source. We need to be careful about generalization. I certainly won't presume to say that Sports Illustrated doesn't know what they are talking about on, at the very least, certain sports that are highly popular in their base grounds, the US (wherein tennis is included). Wikipedia does not get to decide [by either presuming or assuming], without any proof to that effect, that a highly renowned publication for sporting themes "does not know its business". That would be a POV. Redux ( talk) 23:23, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I would only support moves when the player himself does not use diacriticals. For example, Amer Delic, who lives in and attended college in the US, and whose website doesn't even try to use the marks. A quick scan of this list suggests that most these players do use diacriticals—they mostly still live in countries that do, and I would be surprised if they don't use diacriticals on their own name.
For any players who don't use diacriticals in their own materials, they should be moved. Cool Hand Luke 04:45, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, as I mentioned before in this discussion, we can't have an all-inclusive discussion on diacritics because, as our policy itself states, we use English spellings if and when they exist. So we can't really say that we either will always use diacritics or that we will never use diacritics, because either one would be incorrect. And since our current state of affairs already states "use when it is the case", it is only a question of us starting to do just that, case by case, when common usage is verified. This particular discussion is centralized on the general aspect that tennis players' names' usage in English all come into being through the same path: their names are transliterated by the governing bodies of tennis, and almost all coverage of these people in the English-speaking world follows that spelling, which in turn, and also because of this sport's immense popularity in the English-speaking world, and by virtue of that, becomes common usage in English. We still need to make an individual check, mainly by cross-referencing the official profiles on the ATP/WTA with other sources from the English-speaking world to ascertain usage. But the general circumstance is overall the same.
I'm sorry, but the point you are making about Milosevic is a case of
two wrongs make a right. I too believe that, if we verify a more common use of "Milosevic", without diacritics, the article would need to be moved appropriately. If that is the case, the article's current title, in English, is as incorrectly given as those on tennis players. However, Wikipedia works by means of "if you see something wrong, fix it", not "demand that other things that are also wrong be fixed first/concomitantly or don't fix it at all". Allowing something that is being done incorrectly (assuming we are accepting the premise that the tennis biographies are not at the correct spelling in English) to remain incorrect because yet another thing that is being done incorrectly has not yet been fixed as well is not in keeping with any of our policies or guidelines and is even contrary to common sense in the aspect of "fix the mistakes/problems as you encounter them". The question regarding Milosevic could be discussed in the article's talk page or even at WP:RM, but an outcome on that is not a prerrequisite for fixing other issues.
Redux (
talk)
02:34, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Comment: Not tennis, but concerning American media, so, rather topical: Yesterday's Croatian/Polish/German/Austrian names displayed on graphics during the ESPN television broadcast of the Euro 2008 group matches were all complete with diacritics, in all cases, including Croatian players from English Premiership. The announcers also tried hard to pronounce them faithfully. Perhaps that's the trend, and graphical exactness is tied to all the other good things, having accuracy as common denominator. Even linguistically, at ESPN. I would not be surprised, to see the staid tennis angloworld adapt, albeit grudginly. Meanwhile, we are an encyclopedia, a place of refuge -- where else will a person see names rendered correctly? Falsifying titles of articles serves no good. And we are to do no harm. -- Mareklug talk 05:00, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
First, the ultimate purpose in this discussion is that we are looking to get passed the general points that people have been making about "only correct spelling", "the sources don't really mean what they are saying", etc. Like I said, we need to verify widespread usage for each case. That won't be done here. That's done for each case scenario, that is, each player — possibly on each page's talk page. Of course we are not going to be moving any article solely on the basis of the ATP/WTA profile. They are highly authoritative sources, but alone they don't configure widespread usage. Ideally, we will be able to cross-reference this with other sources, such as specialized sources (Sports Illustrated is one that was mentioned), news that mention any given player by name (CNN, BBC, etc.) and other [reliable] venues in English where players are mentioned by name, using the spelling. But this exact verification, player by player, is not what we are doing right now. That's because we are still getting a lot of stuff like the comment immeditely beneath mine (for now, when someone responds here it won't be 'immediately' beneath anymore), amounting to "doesn't matter that the sources might be spelling this like that because we know that they don't really mean that".
So verification of common usage in English, which is what we need, is done by verifying that the vast majority of reliable sources that write in English, in the English-speaking world, are using this same spelling. That demonstrates common usage in English. That is what our policy requires in terms of demonstrating that a form of spelling is the one commonly used and recognizable in English. Common usage and wide recognition is demonstrated by usage, that is, the fact that the vast majority of the sources in English are using that spelling. As Somedumbyankee mentioned, nobody lays down a formal piece of legislation regarding usage. It is a continuous process through which a given form of spelling a word enters the language's lexis and becomes accepted, commonly used and widely recognized, thus defining it as "correct" in that language.
Hobartimus, you seem to be misunderstanding something: "tennis sources" or any source, as long as they are reliable, and the ATP and the WTA certainly are, are valid sources to verify information, including spellings of names. There is no such thing as "this source is only meant for match results". In this particular context, because we need to verify widespread usage, they are not sufficient on their own, since we need to demonstrate common usage across various venues. That does not, however, negate their position as the single most authoritative sources for anything pertaining to tennis, including the spellings of players' names — and notably because they are both associations of professionals, where the players themselves are members, which means that, unless there is a formal protest, players endorse or, at least, accept what their own organization is saying about them. And that includes how they spell their names.
Redux (
talk)
16:32, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Oppose: Diacritcs were originally dropped either because the original printing machines were not designed to recreate them, or because the original editor was either too lazy, sloppy or just ignorant to take any notice. The fact is plain and simple: diacritics are additions - not letter replacements - they complement the grapheme, and as such, they cause no difficulty when reading. Ţō ṭáķè àñ éχãṃρłẽ, ωĥö ṝẽâłłγ ṣṭřúģģļèš ťó ŕéáđ ţħïš ??? Every character in that last sentence is alien to its plain counterpart among the 26 basic letters of English. The human brain copes with diacritics by ignoring them when it is unsure how the letter is supposed to be pronounced in the source language. Names which are printed without diacritics are not transcribed into English. If they were, he who transcribed them would have to do a lot more to match the new form with the expected pronunciation. Here on the free encyclopaedia, we can all write names as and how we choose. If someone should come along and ammend a name by adding a diacritic, or moving a page to the relevant name involving the diacritic, it is primitive to revert it: it brings us backwards when our purpose is to be knowledgeable. I accept that no tennis lover can be familar with every language of the world. So if he/she wishes to use "Ivo Karlovic", then that is fine, nobody need take exception. If then one reader with a knowledge of the South Slavic written languages reads it and changes it to "Karlović", let us be grateful that he/she is aiming to improve the article quality by adding accuracy. In response to HJensen's suggestion that it is all right to use diacritics on such word as "café" because it is common for English, I wish to add that it too is often omitted, and where it is common to find it, you will also find the same writer using diacritics for other words and names which use them in the source language, except if that editor is unaware of them and even then it would only be a matter of time before he or she became familiar with them, and started to use them. It would be unfounded for any writer to use diacritics for some titles whilst discluding them for other things when he/she is aware of their usage. It would be even sillier for an editor of a newspaper to present forms such as Zoë (girl's name) and façade, but dismiss Vírag Németh as un-English when it is the editor here who dictates precisely what is and what is not English, at least for our sakes. It is incompatible: he'll either use the diacritics everywhere, or he won't; except where he is unsure. Here on Wikipedia we have millions of editors and monolingual editors need feel no shame when they reproduce a tennis player's name as on the tabloid backsheet. When your Romanian/Polish/Croatian/Swedish/Icelandic editor makes the relevant change, it will: a) improve the accuracy and raise its reputable appearance, b) still be easy to read whilst educating those who were previously unaware but are otherwise interested, and c) still be in accordance with some English language media. Now you cannot be fairer than this. Evlekis ( talk) 13:24, 10 June 2008 (UTC) Евлекис
Redux. I know exactly what I said in the above paragraph and my sentiments remain. I cannot find you internet sources to state that certain publishers omit diacritics on account of ignorance any more than I can find a source to suggest that television soap operas aim at the gullible and unintelligent. That is why I make these remarks on talk pages and not the articles. But if you can prove that the soap opera viewer population has a significant percentage of highly intelligent and respectable individuals, you might also be able to deduce this: (Local Name) - (Diacritics) = (English variant). But you havn't, and neither has anyone, and that is why this discussion exists. If removing diacritics is an attempt to anglicise word forms, then that would only be the first stage of the project. Before an English speaker is expected to pronounce the foreign name, a conventional transcription would materialise from somewhere. Look at the example for Boris Nikolayevich Yeltsin here. So, you are saying that: Jelena Dokić, becomes, Jelena Dokic (common English). To read the new form in English, you end up pronouncing the initial letter as the first in "jam", and the final letter as the last letter of "Civic". To keep her local language pronunciation, you'd probably want to write Yelena Dokich. Since our publishers do not do this, they clearly have no intention of Anglicising her name. And if they do not wish to Anglicise her name, why do we not have the diacritic? It could be either because they are unaware of it - possibly because they copied it from others who also copied from the first influx whose ultimate source was some primitive computer scoreboard on the courts, many of which cannot cope with much more than the 26 letters and the 10 digits - or because their own original printing equipment did not have the facility. These are just two reasons why some publishers may not use diacritics. Today, everything is available at the editor's fingertips. So if he should choose to ignore the diacritics because it is "the journal's policy not to change what it has been doing since 1972", that is their problem at the firm. I doubt there will be an outcry to have them removed by their readers! And in any case, keeping the diacritics out still does not make it "English", because you still have English language literature which observes diacritics. Nobody would accuse them of deviating from written English if they restrict them to the name of a foreign source, apart from those who think that Scandinavians are stupid for using /j/ for their /y/ sounds. So, diacritics may not be seen everywhere, but if keeping them is in breech of "English", so too is keeping the rest of the spelling. "Goran Ivanisevic" as you read it here is as misleading and meaningless in English as it would be in Croatian. As for my other comments, the editor being free to write as he chooses, I did not mean that he can blank an article and replace it with his own poetry, I meant that he is free to write names the only way he knows how, to misspell, editing free from the fear of being ungrammatical and in time, piece by piece, someone will ammend it for the better. One is not a vandal if he uses diacritics where others don't, even if the page has been move to the plain form. And this is where I say that we should not go to war with good faith individuals who install diacritics to improve a page's accuracy, which as I said, is in accordance with some English media. Evlekis ( talk) 08:58, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm being rather objective about it, not personal. You are missing the point. What defines usage is the fact that people use a spelling commonly. The historical reasons are not decisive, because Wikipedia does not get to pass judgement on them to decide that they are indicative of someone's original personal choice, or a general guideline in media agencies. That is irrelevant from the perspective of an encyclopedia. What concerns us is that a spelling has become common usage in English-speaking sources and verifies that it is the most commonly used in the English-speaking world, which in turn
defines the title of our articles. It is as I said: if someone argues that "I know that they are doing it out of ignorance" it's original research and a point of view. If someone says "I have experience in the field and I know that authors don't give it much thought when deciding how to write" that's original research and, more specific to the point of usage, irrelevant, because we are not here to define the historical reasons why a spelling became commonly used (original research), and certainly not to pass judgment on those reasons (point of view) and decide that we can overlook common usage because we have reached an understanding amongst ourselves on the value of the historical reasons and, by extension, on the value of the current common usage (both original research and pov).
Understand, I'm not disagreeing with anyone on any particular issue. Only this is an encyclopedia, we do not create new knowledge, we do not analyze and assign "worth" to existing knowledge. We gather and reproduce information, according to certain parameters (our policies and guidelines). That is why I say that anyone's sentiment or opinion in that regard is irrelevant. It has nothing to do with my own standing regarding any user or even any point concerning whatever reasons might have inspired the sources originally to start using a spelling. As far as I am concerned, you could be 100% correct. But that is still just not how the encyclopedia is written.
Redux (
talk)
12:44, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
I must agree with Somedumbyankee. This is becoming a case of refusal to get the point. You do realize that you said that a "misspelled version is not an English version" and that "it doesn't matter how common it is", which is saying that it is spelled different from the native and as such it is "wrong" and thus we should ignore common usage on grounds that it is "wrong", regardless of what the sources are saying and our policies and guidelines, which you quoted yourself. That has been addressed before; read specifically my explanations about transliteration in linguistics and the fact that our assuming that it is "wrong" on some philosophical, cultural or social level is original research and a point of view. We are an encyclopedia, and regarding usage, we follow common usage in English sources. We do not judge and decide that all the English sources are "wrong" and because of that we are authorized to ignore them. Concerning reliability, please read WP:RS, you seem to be misunderstanding this concept as well. Redux ( talk) 15:15, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Evlekis, I do get what you are saying. But WP:UE is actually very, very simple: "Use the most commonly used English version of the name of the subject as the title of the article, as you would find it in verifiable reliable sources" and "if one name is clearly most commonly used in the English-language references for the article, use it". That means, if such a thing exists, we use that spelling. If it doesn't (devided spelling, etc.) we use the native, most common form. I believe you might be confusing a couple of things: first, the rule regarding systematic transliteration refers to how we will list names with non-Latin characters, and it says that we don't use systematic transliteration if a common English form exists. "Common" means, simply enough, "used widely by sources". Second, exonyms are something we need to mention in articles even if they are not common usage, to demonstrate to readers how the word "works" in English. That has nothing to do with us demonstrating that the most common spelling used in sources is a proper exonym or a product of more complex
romanization. It is just a question of using the more common form adopted by the sources in English.
All we need to do is that we must be able to demonstrate widespread usage of a spelling in reliable sources. For tennis players, this is usually rather simple — which is why nobody has denied that that's what's found in English-language sources. That they are simply the native form minus the diacritics changes nothing. It's not our job to decide that it is "close enough" to the exact native form.
What you are saying about cities is what I mentioned earlier: it is irrelevant to make assumptions such as "if they were to write, they'd sure not use diacritics". Doesn't matter. That is not usage. If one source, once in a blue moon, does it, that's not usage either. When it comes to cities and other places, the rule is the same, so we have
Vienna not Wien,
Prague not Praha etc., but we have
Umeå, as you mentioned. Umeå is a case of no established usage, so we default to the native spelling. There is no law that says that those cities are to be called that in English. What exists is common usage. If it were to change in the future, we'd need to move those articles to Wien and Praha. In terms of article titles, we use the name that is common usage in English if that exists. And, of course, from WP:UE as well: "Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. It is not our business to predict what term will be in use; but to observe what is and has been in use, and will therefore be familiar to our readers. If Torino ousts Turin, we should follow; but we should not leap to any conclusion until it does."
Redux (
talk)
22:51, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
With respect, gauging concensus is something I have a little experience in doing. If you have 15 people supporting a point that we can ignore sources and carry original research in that regard, this will be taken in light of the facts not only that the rationales for so doing might have been refuted here, but also that there is a larger consensus, represented in
WP:OR and
WP:NPOV that says that Wikipedia will not, under any circumstance, carry original research and user point of view. So certainly, if we have I-don't-know-how-many-users saying "ignore the sources because they only mean that English authors are ignorant/don't have appropriate keyboards", those positions will be taken and weighed exactly for what they represent. Otherwise this would be a vote, a headcount. And that is not how Wikipedia works.
And I am very much aware that issues representing language structure have been forced around via canvassing in other-language projects and on en.wiki to harness similar PoVs and create a vote-like situation where a show of hands favors a specific side. Since canvassing has already been demonstrated to have taken place here, associated with the fact that many people clearly "voted" per same-old rationales, without reading previous discussions or caring to reflect, you should be very careful in claiming that I'm the one trying to sway any kind of result. Nobody likes being told that they are wrong. Assuming bad faith because someone will not agree with what you perceive as obvious is quite frankly, misguided.
Redux (
talk)
22:51, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Interesting. As you wish. You are certainly entitled to say what you want. You think I'm offending you because I'm telling you that you are wrong. You also think that I'm "burying" you under repetitive argumentation while you keep refusing to get the point (WP:POINT); I've been giving you a chance to demonstrate how negating verified usage is not original reseach and point of view. You think you don't need to because you have consensus. So I'll do as you wish and no longer respond to you. What I explained above still stands, the notion of consensus included. Redux ( talk) 13:45, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Obvious Oppose OrderinChaos has pretty much summed it up. I would add just two thoughts. I find it quite extraordinary that the ATP and others would choose to misspell players' names. They should certainly change their practice. Second, no-one would ever suggest moving Antonín Dvořák to Antonin Dvorak or Gabriel Fauré to Gabriel Faure; I don't see why Tennis players are less deserving of respect than other figures with diacriticised nominal embellishment. Eusebeus ( talk) 20:09, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
"This is madness!" When I look at this "discussion," I see a problem. Every time a new editor chimes in, a couple of prolific editors jump in and pick apart everything they say, often repeating the same arguments. I do not think this is productive, it makes the discussion confusing, makes it extremely daunting to anyone else who might want to participate, and obscures consensus.
Let's say editor #1 makes comment X, and editor #2 rebuts it in a reply. A couple days later, editor #3 comes along and makes a comment that is essentially a rehash of X. There is no need for editor #2 to repeat his/her rebuttal, because there is already a record of it in the reply (at most, editor #2 might add a comment that said "see this" with a link to the diff of the original rebuttal).
I was alerted to this page because of a Wikiquette alert, and while I understand what is being debated, after reading for 2-3 minutes I have absolutely no clue what the arguments are from the various sides, because this is just a hodge-podge. The discussion will be much more effective if people could stick to succinctly summarizing their main points. Thanks. -- Jaysweet ( talk) 14:01, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
This was a very sad proposal indeed. I wonder if it has occurred to a few users fighting diacritics that many English speakers actually know how to read them, and would therefore be misled if presented titles lacking them. I totally accept that many people will not bother to pronounce foreign names right. Or care to learn. But for those who do care for accuracy of information, diacritics are most essential. You thus have no right to promote ignorance on an encyclopedia, which is supposed to be regarded as a trustworthy and precise source of information. Hús ö nd 02:31, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
As said elsewhere this is not a question of spelling. UE refers to things like Munich whereas here they are suggesting something akin to Munchen Tfd25 ( talk) 09:08, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
We are still going around in circles on the actual point: the guideline is quite simple, and that is why it is not written in intricate terms: in terms of article title, we use the spelling that is commonly used in sources written in English. Our arguing that it is "wrong", "mispelled" or anything else is simply besides the point. It is besides the point because Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and as such in all instances we carry information, or spellings, that we can verify. Is it "wrong"? Is there a "plot" to vandalize peoples name that has been successful? It doesn't matter as far as we are concerned. If the evil plot worked, it is not our place to "right the wrong". It would be original research. Under our current criteria for inclusion, if an information is "wrong" but is the only one verifiable externally, than that one is actually the information that will be on Wikipedia — to change that would not be a case of amending only WP:UE, but also WP:V (verifiability), WP:NPOV and WP:OR (no original research). In terms of common usage of a spelling, if there is a rendition clearly widespread in reputable sources in English, that's going to be the title of the article on the English-language Wikipedia (title; the actual content of the article must, always give the native spelling as well).
The other point that has been made is that the diacritics-less spelling is not even "wrong", contrary to suggestions, for the reasons already given above (as per linguistics, etc.). I believe I used a good example concerning the title of the article
Charlesmagne; it is also above.
Redux (
talk)
20:52, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
The only thing that is obvious is what we can verify: common usage, that is, what the reputable sources in the English-speaking world are using. Other than that, it is us speculating on the reasons why they are doing it and then basing a decision to ignore common usage on our own speculations. It doesn't matter if I or any other user here on Wikipedia happen to agree with any given point, it doesn't even matter if we could agree that it is "obvious enough" why any given usage has become common practice. And it doesn't matter precisely because Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. As such, we reproduce existing knowledge and don't create anything new; applying that to the issue of common usage, it means that we adopt it as the title of any given article. What we don't do is pass judgement ourselves on the sources to decide that they are "wrong" and take it upon ourselves to rectify their "mistake", because the existing, widespread usage in the English-speaking world is ignorable for the reasons we ourselves considered. That is textbook original research. And because we are plainly speculating — doesn't matter if accurately from a philosophical point of view, it is speculative because it is based on nothing other than Wikipedia users' perception — on the reasons why a usage became widespread, if we conduct editorial actions based on our own speculations, that's textbook point of view, which we also can't carry.
I'm sorry, but "sources don't care to perform spell checks" is yet another speculation. If we were talking about a single source, already well-known for editorial carelessness, that would be one thing. But we are discussing common usage, and in this context we cannot discard usage, as adopted by multiple, reputable sources based on our understanding that they don't conduct spell checks, that if they did they would "certainly" use diacritics and thus this alleged carelessness allows us to disregard a clear widespread usage in English. Do you see how many leaps, how many assumptions and speculations there are in this? And even if
deep down we were to be right and those were true, because we are an encyclopedia it is still
not up to us to rectify anything. If we did, well, we'd be creating new knowledge, that is, original research.
Redux (
talk)
14:36, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Excuse me? Verifiability and accuracy apply, but verified common usage, as indicated on WP:UE, doesn't? What kind of logic is that? It only applies to the point where it is convenient? Not quite. If a common usage in English-language sources is verifiable, than that's the title of the entry. "It does not apply" based on what? Your say so? The say so of any number of Wikipedia users? A number of people, after canvassing is already known to have taken place, getting behind rationales such as "keyboard configuration problems", where a head count validates whatever point, regardless of what it is? This is not a vote, and if it were it would already have been voided by canvassing.
Now, ignoring reputable sources, which are indicating a common usage in English, based solely on users' assumptions and speculations on the reasons why that usage became commonly adopted in English and deciding, based on nothing but our own sense of what is "worthy" or "correct", that those reasons we ourselves indicated are indisputably the historical reasons why a spelling came into use and that those reasons are "wrong" and, as such, a verified common usage "does not apply"? You are seriously saying that that is not original research on our part? That we are not applying our own point of view if we decide that using the diacritics-less spelling adopted widely by multiple reputable sources as the title of articles is a "downgrade in quality", which is plainly passing judgement on what the entire English-speaking world is doing and deciding that it means nothing and Wikipedia can ignore it? We do not vote or simply decide that on this instance we can do just that. We have a much more significant consensus that such things are not permitted in the creative process of the encyclopedia under any circumstance.
But if I'm not getting this point across, and that would appear to be the case, since you have been bringing up the exact same points that have been addressed time and again before, and not only by me, then I suggest we use the conflict resolution process. Not to resolve a "conflict", since we are not in one personally, but in order to clarify what is an essential part of this project. It is impossible, I believe, to justify this "common usage does not apply in this case" pitch without essentially authorizing us to exercise point of view and original research in writing the project. Since those are non-negotiable on Wikipedia, we will need to establish, once and for all, what exactly is original research and point of view in editorial decisions. Because those are certainly not "flavors of the month" that we can pick and choose how and when to apply.
Redux (
talk)
02:41, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
Any opinion is a PoV, of course. But Wikipedia's point of view must be a neutral one. We do not get it if we carry information as Wikipedia users believe it should be, against what the sources might be stating. "Following the sloppiness of sources" is a slippery claim. In the case of common usage, and in this particular case, we are talking about multiple sources, most if not all of them, reputable. "Sloppy" is an opinion you might have on them. And they could even be sloppy, and we'd still have to reflect what they are carrying. We don't get to pick and choose when we are going to reflect the sources, when we are not and when we are going to reflect them partially. I don't know where you are getting that common usage doesn't apply to spelling on Wikipedia. It absolutely does, to the point that we have guidelines and policies establishing which variations of spellings are to prevail if more than one exists within the English language itself (British v American v Australian, for instance). We do not decide that we don't need to follow those on grounds that we might not like them, because we believe they represent "sloppiness" on the side of the sources. "I don't like it" is not grounds to IAR, and in reductio ad absurdum, Wikipedia would actually carry alleged "sloppiness", if that's what all the sources are saying — mutatis mutandi for common usage: if all the sources are indicating a usage as widespread and most recognizable in English, it doesn't matter that we the users might not like it, or disagree with it, we still need to use that as the title of the article.
As for confict resolution, or in this case, resolution of policy interpretation problems, the principle is the same: if we are unable — and indeed by "we" I mean not just us, but apparently the entire community, on repeated instances — to reach an understanding, we will need to start working towards a resolution, even if it ultimately has to come from ArbCom. You do realize, no policy on Wikipedia is enforceable if all people need to do to excuse themselves from them is claiming "my position is simply not original research, period", as
doc glasgow once put it very well.
Redux (
talk)
13:21, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
Please understand, and that might not be entirely clear: I'm not asserting that diacritics are not important, and putting aside my personal view on this claim of keyboard/software problems, I'm not even going to state categorically that there is no such thing. All of this would be my own point of view. And if it comes down to pov vs. pov, then we can't possibly get anywhere, because your opinion is as important as mine, and, as stated on WP:TRUTH, an opinion is usually perceived as the truth by those who sustain it. The point here is completely different: we have common usage for certain people, whose names are rendered without diacritics commonly in the English-speaking world, making that form the most commonly recognized form in English. We are the English-language Wikipedia, and because of that we have certain standards regarding using that form as the title of the article on that given person. The idea is not to remove all reference of diacritics from the articles themselves, or even to move every single article we have on people with names using diacritics to diacritics-less renditions. We need to have common usage, that is a widespread usage of that name in English that differs from the native. It is not a question of us approving or disaproving of diacritics, or even applying our common sense, not if our common sense is going against what the entire English-speaking world is doing. We don't correct every single source out there because we are an encyclopedia.
My reference is not so that ArbCom will pass judgement on the importance or utility of diacritics. Rather it is focusing on the situation of us passing judgement on sources, for reasons originating on our own assumptions and leaps, even if those are grounded, on our own opinion, on common sense and reasonable thinking. We still can't do it.
And this is a very interesting case, because here we are not dealing with bad faith, with people looking to hurt the project. Quite on contrary. Obviously I couldn't speak for every single person out there, but for the most part, it would be safe to say that the points are made in absolute good faith. Sometimes, we might trip on original research or even pov while trying to do our best. It's not just like page blanking, something only a vandal would do with the clear purpose of doing harm. But what I am reading here is that, without fully realizing it, and under the premise of correctly interpreting facts, people have been, at least for the cases where common usage can be established, effectively using OR and PoV in editorial decisions. I believe that to be the case because, if a widespread usage in English can be verified on external sources and we the users on Wikipedia are deciding to ignore it for reasons exclusively of our own — regardless of whatever merit they might carry — that constitutes, depending on the case, OR and/or PoV. So the proposal would be for us to start working towards a definition of how far we are allowed to go, regarding usage in English, if it can be verified on external sources. Can we verify something on reputable sources and still choose to ignore it? For our own reasons, even if they are with some merit? I believe we can't, because if we intepret and modify as we believe it ought to be done, we are doing original research, and possibly expressing points of view in the encyclopedia — in this case, in article titles.
Redux (
talk)
01:01, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Since you itemized your post, allow me to reply in a similar fashion, each item corresponding to yours, in the order you posted:
The result of this discussion was do not move. Gwen Gale ( talk) 00:24, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
There has already been a discussion on the move of those pages based on our policy and guidelines ( here). It was open for + 8 days and there were links on talk pages of most, if not all, articles to be affected. This is an attempt to circumvent what was decided there. Second of all, the points being made here are the exact same-old quite appropriately listed on Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions, which apply entirely, namely "I don't like it", "Wikipedia should be about everything", "just a guideline" and "it doesn't do any harm [because there are redirects]". None of which is valid to justify superseding the English language on the English-language Wikipedia. We have a widely used, different-from-native spelling used throughout the English speaking world, and that is verifiable. Whether those people's families, fellow countrymen or,least of all, Wikipedians think about it personally is of absolutely no consequence in making this determination. We need something verifiable that indicates that, in the English-speaking world — and not in Serbia, Croatia, Russia or China — there is no spelling different-from-native that is preferred and widely used. In the case of tennis players, that would be difficult to imagine, for obvious reasons. Redux ( talk) 16:23, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but you are overreaching. " English-speaking world" refers to the parts of the world where English is either a native language or an official language — in the very Wikipedia article I linked, you will even find a map indicating what, in the mapa mundi, is the "English-speaking world". The term was not invented on Wikipedia, but rather it is an established expression. It is irrelevant to assume that foreigners tend to know grammar or even the basics of the language better than natives. Claiming "ethnocentrism" to justify why the English language should be superseded on the English-langage Wikipedia, in this context, holds as much merit as claiming that this article on the Hungarian-language Wikipedia should be titled "William II of England" — being that a regnal name is also the "official" name by which this person is known in his native language/country. And most especially because it not us, on Wikipedia, who decided or created the different spelling in English, we merely verify that it exists and abide by it. If the very act of coming up with a alternate spelling is right or wrong, it is not for us to say. That would be original research and a point of view. The fact remains that the preferred spelling exists, it is widely used and it is verifiable. For more commentary on this topic, please refer to the already-mentioned discussion on the tennis biographies, and especially to the page Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions (notably, "Wikipedia should be about everything"), which, again, apply exactly here. Redux ( talk) 20:29, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
In the case of tennis-related biographies, we determined that a widely-used version in the English-speaking world exists and is verifiable on official websites of the sport's governing bodies. They use English as their working language, and all material published in the English-speaking world, as well as material from those parts of the world that are online or televised follow that exact spelling. Not once have I, and I suspect anyone else, seen any pattern of spelling of a player such as "Radek Stepanek" differently than the version adopted officially by the ATP in English. And I say pattern, taken into account televized events, news channels both online and printed etc., in the English-speaking world (so please, don't link a a Czech newspaper article to make the point that other spellings exist).
Following our Manual of Style (naming conventions) and policies (verifiability, etc.) and plus using simply common sense, this determination is applicable to all biographies related to tennis. And I say that because tennis happens to be a sport that is widely popular in the English-speaking world, which is why is could happen (I don't know, this is for the sake of example) that the same cannot be said about, say, Cricket, which is only popular in a handful of countries, and not even throughtout the entire English-speaking world (in terms of population percentages, etc.). This is not because tennis receives some kind of "special treatment", but rather because in relation to it, and perhaps not other modalities, we are able to answer positively the 2 main questions: a)is there a different-from-native spelling preferred and used widely in the English-speaking world? and b) is that verifiable?
That said, we still need to make this verification case by case. I've been doing that. In the article
Lili de Alvarez, for example, I was unable to find a profile on the official WTA website; that plus the fact that this is a player from the 1940s caused me to acknowledge that, in that case, I was unable to verify (key word) the state of any given spelling as being preferred and used widely in the English-speaking world, which causes the article title to default to the native spelling. At least until a time when evidence could be presented to that effect, which it was.
I regret immensily the treatment dispensed to
Tennis expert. He started moving articles only after the discussion had concluded, and using the same parameters I was using to move articles. He did nothing wrong. In fact he helped me post the numerous notes and links to that discussion in order to let people know it was ongoing. What I see in his talk page is a post from a user who was unaware of the discussions that had taken place, and assumed, wrongly, that he was doing something out of his own, personal conviction. That was then followed by posts from a single user who happened to disagree with the decision made, and who, apparently, was also unaware of the discussions, the naming conventions and the entire situation of the case. That led to other misunderstandings and even to Tennis expert being threatened with a block for implementing policies and guidelines while backed by a previous, public discussion with consensus to move the articles.
The only truly wrong action was the personal requests to administrators,
such as this, to circumvent the discussion because there "was no real consensus, at least not among administrators", which is completely wrong and highly inappropriate to have been granted.
Redux (
talk)
22:58, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm not really "blaming" anyone for not being aware of the discussions held previously, it happens. Moving those pages back originally was inappropriate, but other people can and did get caught in the wake of that. And I do recognize what Orderinchaos is talking about regarding Tennis expert: there was a misunderstanding concerning Tennis expert's actions, and Orderinchaos apologized for it generously. That would appear to be no problem at all.
However, there was consensus previously reached. You might not have been aware of it, like I said, but there was. I won't simply repeat myself concerning the discussion held and why it pertains to tennis biographies, this has been explained here (in previous comments), in the original discussion and in the AN. Especially considering that the discussion was meant to get consensus for the implementation of previously-existing policies (verifiability, etc.), guidelines (MoS, notably Naming Conventions) and, if I might add, plain logical application of said policies and guidelines, a claim that the discussion held is somehow "not valid" or "insufficient" is completely without merit. It has been explained time and again why this is in reference to tennis biographies. It pertains to tennis (ok, here we go yet again) because the situation relating to tennis is of the nature I have just now explained for the 10th time. That it wouldn't apply to, say, hockey, cricket or spearfishing is exactly why discussions of that nature need to be held for each concrete situation — which should be in line with what people keep saying about case-by-case verification. So claiming that there was no consensus in not correct.
Mentioning consensus among administrators is, I'm afraid, even more wrong. Administrators are not high arbitrators of consensus. If consensus is reached in discussions — and regarding that, see my previous comment above about how the original discussion was conducted — an administrator's job is to abide by it, not decide to either sanction or overturn it.
What all of this ends up looking like, which does not mean that it is of course, and I hope that I'm completely wrong in that regard, is that when one end result is not as expected, the solution found is to discredit it and call for a "higher" or "broader" arena, where the result can be overturned. I am especialy concerned with a comment made previously in this very discussion, about people "not having been contacted" about the original discussion. What that is sounding like to me is "we should have an opportunity to call everyone who agrees with this or that point of view, and see how many heads there are on each side".
Wikipedia is not a democracy, that is not how it works. There is no requirement to call any given people personally to a discussion; in fact, that is canvassing and should not, under no circumstance and under pain of voiding the very consensus reached, be done. Talk pages are meant for discussions on how to improve the project. Since we were having a centralized discussion that would affect a number of articles, notes with links were spreaded throughtout those articles, but without canvassing, which is how discussions are supposed to be held in the first place.
Redux (
talk)
05:46, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
to call any given people personally to a discussion; in fact, that is canvassing
"Bjorn Borg" is the spelling in English that is widely used and preferred in the English-speaking world. That is why our article needs to be at this title. The ATP website is a verifiable source to that effect. In other words, we don't title the article "Bjorn Borg" because the "all-mighty" ATP used that spelling, we do it because the English-speaking world uses that overwhelmingly and this fact is verifiable. Maybe the ATP was the one to introduce that spelling in the first place. Doing the research to identify that is not our job, although we can quote a trustworthy, previously-published source that might make that statement. It is definitely, never ever our job to decide that the act of having come up with a different spelling, omitting the diacritic mark, was philosophically, socially or culturally wrong and take it upon ourselves to "correct the mistake" by ignoring the usage in English on the English-language Wikipedia. That is a point of view and original work, which is not allowed in Wikipedia. Redux ( talk) 04:02, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
At this point, I actually don't know if you are misunderstanding or overreaching. It is quite simple: on the English-language Wikipedia we use the variation in English if it exists and can be verified. This topic is in referrence to tennis players, so you are using a logical fallacy by linking articles on a hockey player and a politician. I've said time and again that we are discussing specific circumstances and that it does not apply to individuals in different circumstances — in fact it's just 2 comments above your own. Yet another fallacy by equating expletive deletions in texts with deciding on our own that what sources are saying is "not what they really mean" because "we all know that the 'actual' spelling is the native spelling". That is original research and a point of view, as I explained above. What you are saying is that we can and should get a "majority" to decide that WP:NPOV can be relativized because we, the community, decided on the correctness of using the spelling adopted in the English-speaking world. Absolutely not the case. There are certain parts of the working of Wikipedia that cannot be relativized: NPOV,
WP:OR and verifiability are some of them.
Further, you are assuming, as an example, that when the English-speaking world says "Radek Stepanek" they actually mean "Radek Štěpánek". That's a point of view and original research. We don't assume, we don't infer. We verify. There is no such thing as we deciding that when the sources say "this" they actually mean "that" ["because otherwise they'd be 'wrong'"].
You are using a straw-man comment by stating something like "using a verified actual name of a person over a more popular spelling with no diacritics would violate NPOV". First, because the spelling used in the English-speaking world can only be used if verified. It is not a question of it being "more popular", it is a question of it being the spelling adopted in the English-speaking world and the fact that this is the English-language Wikipedia, where content is written in English and must default to spellings in English if those exist and are verifiable. Second, because you are implying that the native spelling is the one and true "real" one. There is no such thing in linguistics. To return to the example I gave above, "Erik the Red" is not wrong while "Erik den Røde" is the correct one. A spelling is accurate if it is recognized and adopted by
those who speak the language. We are an encyclopedia, we don't get to decide that this is "wrong and shouldn't be done".
Redux (
talk)
13:11, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
neutral message could be written and sent to parties possibly interested (pro or contra).
As I mentioned on another comment underneath, it's not the point of an article title to assume that people will not read the article and draw conclusions from it. The relevant information needs to be in the article, which is the actual source of information. The title is supposed to be accurate in English, according to certain parameters we adopt. Assuming a logic based on a chaos theory, it would be possible to make an equally valid point that, if we were to link using the native form, the reader would be unaware that there is a spelling in English, that this spelling in English is the one that is actually adopted and recognized in the English-speaking world. As well as that by depriving the reader of such information, we would be doing him or her a disservice. You see? That is clearly reading too much into what a link means. In fact, the very point of hypertexting is exactly to make it possible for the reader to get information on related topics, information which will not be available in the main text s/he is reading at the moment. We are not supposed to convey the entire information in the link, we are supposed to provide the link so that the reader will find the information. Any more than that, and we are speculating and using the speculation to justify superseding the English language, which is something we cannot do. Redux ( talk) 01:05, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Relating to the two "oppose" posts above, although we are not holding a vote, I'm sorry, but none of you seem to have read a single word of what has been said, repeatedly, above. "Misled into believing that the name has no diacritics"? So you didn't read any of the several times I explained that this has no merit for simple reasons:
article titles are not supposed to convey all the information. Not having diacritics on the article title does not mean "hide the fact that the native spelling uses them". That is given in the opening paragraph of the article, in the first sentence if possible. That's not to mention a point in Linguistics, since you are assuming, and this has also been mentioned before, that the native spelling is the only "true" one, which is not the case. If a person's name has a spelling in English that is the one adopted in the English speaking world ("Erik the Red", for maybe the 4th time) than the information "Erik the Red" within the context of the English language — and this is the English-language Wikipedia — is accurate information. The existence of a native spelling that is not the one adopted in English is information that must be in the article, which is what, to use your words, will inform you, not in the article title. The title of the article itself needs to be correct in accordance with certain parameters, which are given by a combination of the Manual of Style (which only follows logic) and certain policies, none of it includes an assumption that people won't read the article and thus we need to convey other bits of information in the title, thus sacrificing the very English language as verified by external sources.
"Reasons for sources omitting diacritics can be brought down to ignorance, laziness or technical restrictions." I explained that yet again earlier today. This is an encyclopedia, we don't get to decide that the reason why the English-speaking world uses a different spelling is "laziness" or anything else. We certainly don't take it upon ourselves to correct the alleged "mistake". That is original research and a point of view. Maybe the English-speaking world is indeed lazy and has come up with diacritic-less spellings for foreigners that happen to become well-known in those countries because they don't want to make new keyboards with keys for the diacritics. That is not our problem. And it is not up to us to assume that this is what took place. Why? Because it is original research. That would be what we, Wikipedian, are assuming heppened; and if that's not bad enough, not only are we speculating on a historical reason for a different spelling, we are also taking the initiative to "correct" the perceived mistake. That makes us a primary source, and that cannot happen. That is not up for interpretation or vote, Wikipedia cannot be a primary source, carrying original work. And certainly not work that Wikipedians came up with themselves by passing judgement on the verified sources. This is, again, ignoring
Wikipedia:Verifiability on the basis of our own understanding of what ought to be, which cannot happen.
Redux (
talk)
21:37, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
You are right, I tripped on the "generalization rock" by stating "every single source", when what need to verify is that a rendition is widely used and the recognizable one in the English-speaking world, and not that nothing else was ever written. But of course, if we look hard enough, we could find references to the native spelling, which is also part of the mostly journalitic nature of the sources we can use to verify facts; for example if we were to find an online story on Novak Djokovic that read something like "Novak Djokovic, whose name is spelled 'Novak Đoković' in his native Serbia(...)". Obviously, that would not be proof that the English-speaking world does not adopt the rendition "Novak Djokovic", which it does, to the point of it being almost empirical.
Concerning the point you just made, if it was a simple question of style, I would agree. But in this case, it is not. We can't chose to ignore established facts because it would be convenient for our article-building process. A similar argument was presented, validly, when people were deciding if the article on the city of New York should be at "New York, New York" or simply "New York". Although the article is now at
New York City, for some time it was at "New York, New York". The argument used was that, although saying just "New York" commonly evokes the city, and not the state of New York, "New York, New York" is also consistent with valid sources, especially US government sources, which consistently use the formula "city name, state name" to refer to cities in the United States; that meant that it was equally valid, which in turn meant that the criteria that would be needed to decide would lie more in a style-based decision. And then, we had the point that when it comes to cities in the US, Wikipedia follows the general standard of "city name, state name", so for consistency, since both forms were equally verifiable, the article could duely be at "New York, New York". That argumentation was perfect. I myself used to think that it was a bit weird having the article at "New York, New York", but I had to accede to that argumentation.
Here, however, it is different. In addition to the fact that New York is a city, and one that is already within the English-speaking world, whereas here we are talking about people, who are not from the English-speaking world but whose names are routinely used in multiple sources, following a specific spelling, the sources — pending individual verification, of course — will normally show that there will be a clear preferred and adopted rendition in English that is different from the native spelling. When that happens, it is no longer really our choice.
The English language (again, on the English-language Wikipedia) and, far more importantly, Verifiability take precedence over our convenience. We need to reflect what the verified sources are telling us, and since circumstances tend to vary (like I said: tennis players and mathematicians are clearly very different instances, so we will not be able to afford both the same treatment) that will necessarily be reflected in the process of building the encyclopedia, which means that, while our string of articles on, for example, slav scientists and politicians will normally, and correctly, include diacritics in their titles, other circumstances exist where we will need to adopt a different pattern. Not one that we created, nor because we wanted to, but rather because we verified that such were the facts in pre-published material.
Redux (
talk)
01:05, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Comment Someone seems to have made a decision all by himself, so it would be nice to send a message to all parties who may possibly be interested in this discussion. Squash Racket ( talk) 03:49, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
That page, as quoted by Mareklug himself on the talk page of the Hantuchova article, is a "how to say" page. That means it is a page meant to show people how to pronounce names in their original language. It would be applicable if we were discussing the absurd possibility of "erradicating" any mention to diacritics from the entire Wikipedia. Since we are discussing article titles, where the spelling is defined by verification that the English-speaking world adopts and recognizes a different spelling widely, a website explaining the existence of the native spelling and the fact that in those languages diacritics are essential to defining how they are pronounced does not vacate the fact (assuming verification, of course) that the English-speaking world adopts a different spelling — spelling, not pronounciation. Wikipedia is covering that, since in the article, which is not the article title, we not only use diacritics in the first sentence of the first paragraph, but we also provide pronounciation guides to make sure readers are informed of what the diacritics mean and how they affect the pronounciation of a word. As a matter of fact, the fact that that person seems to be protesting against the fact that the names are used in English without diacritics serves to actually make the point of widely used in the English-speaking world. A individual who thinks it's wrong does not change that fact, which is what we do need to verify.
You are confusing the article itself with the article title, and assuming that pieces of information that need to be in the article are somehow supposed to be conveyed in the title. It is not the case. The title is defined by verifed usage in English for each subject. I've also mentioned the difference between the title and actual content of the article in my response to Kotniski's post, a little further above.
Redux (
talk)
17:34, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
I take it you didn't notice Kotniski's post and my response above, or you would not be making the exact same point again. So again, but more briefly (for more detail, please read the relevant posts above): article titles are not pronunciation guides; in fact, Wikipedia is not a pronunciation guide. That notwithstanding, we do include information, which is relevant, on how any given word or name might be pronounced. That information, however, is given in the article. It is not, by any measure, the scope of the article's title to provide a pronunciation guide. Sustaining that the diacritics should be in the article, in spite of the fact that, if so verified (as explained multiple times), they are not to be for the reason that otherwise readers will mispronounce the person's name is absolutely not in keeping with how the encyclopedia is organized in terms of article titles. Titles are decided according to parameters that have absolutely nothing to do with making sure that when the reader sees the title, s/he will know exactly how the name or word is pronounced. Again, please read the post above on that regard. Redux ( talk) 17:34, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
My opinion? What exactly is my opinion? That Wikipedians do not get to decide that verified facts are ignorable? That so doing constitutes original research, and a violation of NPOV and WP:Verifiability? Sorry, but that's not my opinion, it's just fundamental policy and you don't need to agree with it. My personal opinion on diacritics is that whatever personal understanding I might have about diacritics is irrelevant; what matters is what the encyclopedia is obliged to do, which is to observe verified facts, which means that the extent of what I believe concerning diacritics is that we use them when we are supposed to, but there are instances where we are not supposed to use them.
Now, your opinion that the English-language spellings is "wrong" is just that: your opinion. And it is being contradicted by verifiable sources, which adopt them extensively. If you say that the sources are "wrong" (philosophically, culturally, phonetically, or whatever), that will, again, be your opinion. Even if I recognize that any given opinion in that regard is philosophically true, because neither your opinion, nor mine, nor the opinions of any number of Wikipedians supersedes WP:Verifiability, we will still reflect the verified facts, since verifiability, not "philosophical truth", is the criterion for inclusion in the encyclopedia.
Redux (
talk)
22:38, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Doesn't do any harm is not a reason to ignore verified facts, which in turn [ignoring verified facts — because we might not believe that it is "worth it"] is a blatant and unacceptable violation of several of our policies. Redux ( talk) 20:40, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
And with all due respect, this is not a vote. The only reason why I keep posting is because people keep making the same points over and over and over again, presumably because they don't read any of what has been written before. We are not doing a head count, so it's not a question of waiting to see how many people "understand and support". And I'm not expressing my opinion, I am explaining that original research and points of views are not going to be decision-making processes in Wikipedia. That you yourself called for "majority preference" and "respecting each others preferences" to decide is an indication that you either didn't read what I've written several times or you misunderstood something. Majority does not decide on ignoring WP:OR, Wikipedia:Verifiability and WP:NPOV, and it doesn't decide to supersede the English language on the English-language Wikipedia. If majority is saying that we can overlook verified facts, I'm afraid it will be irrelevant to make headcounts ( Wikipedia is not a democracy). If people would start making new, valid points, and not "opposing" in a discussion while citing personal views or askewed interpretations (and I mean that technically, not personally) of how this project works, we could move on appropriately. Redux ( talk) 20:58, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
You seem to be referring to my position as if I was expressing a personal point of view that diacritics should be removed. I'm not. I neither prefer nor reject diacritics. As long as in accordance with fundamental policy, Wikipedia fully supports use of diacritics, and so do I — and if I didn't it would be irrelevant, Wikipedia still supports it and that's all that matters. However, what some have said here is that although [the established-because-verifiable fact that] the English-speaking world has adopted a different spelling, which, per the MoS and common sense means that article titles need to follow that spelling, we are going to take a vote to decide that "this is wrong"/"it's disrespectful"/"it's not the same as we are doing on articles on slav mathematicians or politicans", and thus we should simply ignore it, or that we should ignore it because there are other articles where we do use diacritics, that is, ignoring verified facts because we, Wikipedians, prefer it and/or think it is right. All of this is both original research and a point of view, so it is irrlevant that I agree with the philosophical truth they might be stating, because that's irrelevant for a decision regarding content to be made. And that's when a minimally organized rationale is given, which is not always. Take a look at what the person who posted immediately above your first post wrote.
That connects with the next fundamental point: this is not a democracy and we are not taking a vote. Many, many people here seem to be under the impression that if enough people "oppose" per [the points I've just summarized] (original reserach), we can decide that a verified fact is ignorable (point of view). This is further demonstrated by the evidence linked above by other users of at least 2 instances of canvassing in relation to this discussion, one of which conducted by an Administrator on the Serbian-language Wikipedia. So that already qualifies as disruptive behavior and POV-pushing. That too will not be legitimized by a vote.
So I'm posting to try to explain that. But the tricky part is, I explain it, and the next person to post [usually, not all of course] just plainly ignores it, sustaining the same positions yet again in different words. And the people I have already explained it to usually don't bother to either reflect or, in some cases, even return, because they might be under the impression that by voting in numbers, they are effectively "blocking" something. Technically, I don't need to get them to agree with anything, because we don't need to get people to agree that WP:No Original Research, NPOV and Verifiability are non-negotiable on Wikipedia. On the one hand, the few who actually took the time to reflect on it, have agreed that us deciding that the widely adopted spelling, when and if verified, is not to be followed for the reasons given does indeed constitutes original reserach and a point of view. On the other hand, there have been people have responded to it by stating that policy should be amended to authorize us to do just that, because the English-speaking world is "wrong" in adopting a different spelling and we are "wrong" to reflect it.
My point in all of this is trying to get people to see that they need to make sustainable points, such as "this is not verifiable because of this and that", and not say "it doesn't matter that it is verifiable, because it is just wrong". Because by stating the latter, contrary to what they might think, they are accomplishing nothing.
Redux (
talk)
22:10, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Recent arguments seem to imply that certain Wikipedians invented diacritics themselves, or that their use is not acceptable in good English. This is simply not the case. Diacritics are widely used in English; they are also widely dropped - there are two acceptable styles, the choice can be made based on which is more appropriate for us. Don't know how e.g. Britannica handles tennis players specifically, but I believe that most serious reference works now tend to use diacritics if practical conditions permit, and Wikipedia certainly does as a general rule. I have argued several times above as to why the pro-diacritic style makes for a better encyclopedia - while that argument remains unrefuted, you can quote all the policy you like. In fact, to avoid regular outbreak of discussions like this, we seriously need to have a clear policy statement on this (if only one reflecting the very widepread and logical current practice, which in a nutshell is to use diacritics regardless of what Google hits might tell us).-- Kotniski ( talk) 04:47, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Strong oppose. I've read through most of this, and I really don't see any strong, reasonable rationale to move them to improper forms. Most US-centric sources are written by writers without the means to type the special characters required, so rather than properly type out the names, they simply anglicanize them. While I think that may be appropriate for a news story, for a formal reference work I think it shows a lack of respect both for the subject and from their originating countries. Also, I don't really think that intarweb hits are going to give a good guideline for this; people are going to type what's most convenient for them. What's most convenient isn't necessarily what makes the most sense, and I think this is one of the cases where THISNUMBERISHUGE really shines. Celarnor Talk to me 07:02, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I've got to say, this is definatly a candidate for WP:LAME. It is fairly simple, in my view, if the person is unknown in English media/literature/the english speaking world or what have you or they are known with diacritics (which does happen) then we use the diacritics. If a person is well known without them, then we don't use them. As the pro-diacritic crowd often say, o is different to ó which is different to ô which is different to ö, so the non diacritic names are something different, a transliteration from non-english latin alphabet to english. Once we get beyond the WP:IDHT aspect of it, it seems simple to me. Narson ( talk) 13:46, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Further to my above comment, I have constructed a germ of a proposal here. It might be more helpful to discuss that general principle than the specific issue of tennis players (whose situation is hardly unique).-- Kotniski ( talk) 05:30, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
No, there is no straw-man argument. For the first part of your argument, you seem to be misunderstanding, and in the second part, you are starting from a
false premise. In the first part because spelling is part of the language; to stick with the example, "Erik the Red" entered the English-language lexis via a process of transliteration of the original in Dannish or Nordic languages; as you mentioned yourself, it then becomes how he is known in English. It is the same process through which "Radek Štěpánek" becomes "Radek Stepanek": transliteration, which is not limited to romanization of non-Latin characters. Rather, it is a process through which a language transfers to its own writing system markings and symbols that are used in the native spelling of any given name or word and which are not recognized in that language (i.e., those who speak it). Diacritics falls within that context.
For the second part, it is obvious enough that the criterion is not "well-known in the English world", and it is also obvious that the fact that some people who are well-known in the English-speaking world have not received spellings in English that may be widely recognized, configuring
usage, does not somehow negates the [verified] fact that other individuals did receive that spelling. Why some did receive it and some didn't? Doesn't matter as far as an encyclopedia is concerned. The criterion is "there is a verified spelling that is verified as being widely used in the English-speaking world". Why and how exactly it happened, and why it happened to some names and not to others, is besides the point; it is not our job to speculate on that. Normally it will happen because the individual is well-known in the English-speaking world. It could also happen for historical reasons, or even other reasons that I'm not even accounting for right now. That is irrelvant, because Wikipedia does not attribute "value" to the reason why it happened in order to discard it if we don't think enough of it.
That said, it is perfectly clear that it is quite possible, and it does happen, that a very well-known person has not had his or her name transliterated, for whatever reason. Saying that would be pretty much stating the obvious.
So it is simple enough: if we can verify that the version exists and is widely used, that means that that name has been transliterated and has entered the lexis of the Engish language with a different spelling. That being the case (pending verification, obviously) it is no longer the case of there being "only one right way to spell" the word can be spelled (so that's a
false premise). Because when that happens, then, as linguistics explain, usage in English defines the "correct" term in English (nothing to do with the native spelling at this point) as the one recognized and adopted in the English language. If you do not use in a formal text that is supposed to be written in English (such as the English-language Wikipedia) you are in fact writting in a different language, which is not to be done on the English-language Wikipedia.
Redux (
talk)
17:35, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Comment. We should follow Wikipeia policies and guidlines. The Policies say use reliable third party English sources, and common names. The most relevant guidline is WP:UE and the current WP:UE guideline is neither overtly hostile to accent marks or friendly. The WP:UE guideline, follows Wikipedia Policies ( WP:V, WP:NOR and WP:Naming conventions) "Use the most commonly used English version of the name of the subject as the title of the article, as you would find it in verifiable reliable sources". and "Wikipedia does not decide what characters are to be used in the name of an article's subject; English usage does. Wikipedia has no rule that titles must be written in certain characters, or that certain characters may not be used. Follow the general usage in English verifiable reliable sources in each case, whatever characters may or may not be used in them." As for names in a page there is a section in the MOS that covers it see Wikipedia:MOS#Foreign terms.
For the majority of foreign names the current guidelines are consistent with Wikipedia policy, but there are two special categories in WP:UE where reliable third party English language sources may not be enough to determine what to use in English. The first is Divided usage in these cases if it can not be agreed what is best, then it is a good idea to put the individual page(s) up for WP:RM to decide the issue (as the use of accent marks is a contentious issue). The second is No established usage in English the suggestion is to use the name in the local language. -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 20:33, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Tennis is actually the issue, because, aside from applicable policies and guidelines that may be applicable in any similar situation, we are precisely considering the concrete verification in the scenario of tennis. The most reliable sources here are the International Tennis Federation (ITF), the Association of Tennis Professionals (ATP) and the Women's Tennis Association (WTA). They are not "sports magazines", they are the highest governing bodies of tennis and the ultimate authoritative sources when it comes to this particular sport. And they all use English as their working (or official) language. Since we are considering players' names' usage in English, which affects article titles, unless the player himself or herself happens to go on the record concerning the usage in English of their own names, it does not get more reliable than those 3 organisms. And that's not to say that a sports magazine, depending on which magazine and of their reputation, can't be a reliable source. We need to be careful about generalization. I certainly won't presume to say that Sports Illustrated doesn't know what they are talking about on, at the very least, certain sports that are highly popular in their base grounds, the US (wherein tennis is included). Wikipedia does not get to decide [by either presuming or assuming], without any proof to that effect, that a highly renowned publication for sporting themes "does not know its business". That would be a POV. Redux ( talk) 23:23, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I would only support moves when the player himself does not use diacriticals. For example, Amer Delic, who lives in and attended college in the US, and whose website doesn't even try to use the marks. A quick scan of this list suggests that most these players do use diacriticals—they mostly still live in countries that do, and I would be surprised if they don't use diacriticals on their own name.
For any players who don't use diacriticals in their own materials, they should be moved. Cool Hand Luke 04:45, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, as I mentioned before in this discussion, we can't have an all-inclusive discussion on diacritics because, as our policy itself states, we use English spellings if and when they exist. So we can't really say that we either will always use diacritics or that we will never use diacritics, because either one would be incorrect. And since our current state of affairs already states "use when it is the case", it is only a question of us starting to do just that, case by case, when common usage is verified. This particular discussion is centralized on the general aspect that tennis players' names' usage in English all come into being through the same path: their names are transliterated by the governing bodies of tennis, and almost all coverage of these people in the English-speaking world follows that spelling, which in turn, and also because of this sport's immense popularity in the English-speaking world, and by virtue of that, becomes common usage in English. We still need to make an individual check, mainly by cross-referencing the official profiles on the ATP/WTA with other sources from the English-speaking world to ascertain usage. But the general circumstance is overall the same.
I'm sorry, but the point you are making about Milosevic is a case of
two wrongs make a right. I too believe that, if we verify a more common use of "Milosevic", without diacritics, the article would need to be moved appropriately. If that is the case, the article's current title, in English, is as incorrectly given as those on tennis players. However, Wikipedia works by means of "if you see something wrong, fix it", not "demand that other things that are also wrong be fixed first/concomitantly or don't fix it at all". Allowing something that is being done incorrectly (assuming we are accepting the premise that the tennis biographies are not at the correct spelling in English) to remain incorrect because yet another thing that is being done incorrectly has not yet been fixed as well is not in keeping with any of our policies or guidelines and is even contrary to common sense in the aspect of "fix the mistakes/problems as you encounter them". The question regarding Milosevic could be discussed in the article's talk page or even at WP:RM, but an outcome on that is not a prerrequisite for fixing other issues.
Redux (
talk)
02:34, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Comment: Not tennis, but concerning American media, so, rather topical: Yesterday's Croatian/Polish/German/Austrian names displayed on graphics during the ESPN television broadcast of the Euro 2008 group matches were all complete with diacritics, in all cases, including Croatian players from English Premiership. The announcers also tried hard to pronounce them faithfully. Perhaps that's the trend, and graphical exactness is tied to all the other good things, having accuracy as common denominator. Even linguistically, at ESPN. I would not be surprised, to see the staid tennis angloworld adapt, albeit grudginly. Meanwhile, we are an encyclopedia, a place of refuge -- where else will a person see names rendered correctly? Falsifying titles of articles serves no good. And we are to do no harm. -- Mareklug talk 05:00, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
First, the ultimate purpose in this discussion is that we are looking to get passed the general points that people have been making about "only correct spelling", "the sources don't really mean what they are saying", etc. Like I said, we need to verify widespread usage for each case. That won't be done here. That's done for each case scenario, that is, each player — possibly on each page's talk page. Of course we are not going to be moving any article solely on the basis of the ATP/WTA profile. They are highly authoritative sources, but alone they don't configure widespread usage. Ideally, we will be able to cross-reference this with other sources, such as specialized sources (Sports Illustrated is one that was mentioned), news that mention any given player by name (CNN, BBC, etc.) and other [reliable] venues in English where players are mentioned by name, using the spelling. But this exact verification, player by player, is not what we are doing right now. That's because we are still getting a lot of stuff like the comment immeditely beneath mine (for now, when someone responds here it won't be 'immediately' beneath anymore), amounting to "doesn't matter that the sources might be spelling this like that because we know that they don't really mean that".
So verification of common usage in English, which is what we need, is done by verifying that the vast majority of reliable sources that write in English, in the English-speaking world, are using this same spelling. That demonstrates common usage in English. That is what our policy requires in terms of demonstrating that a form of spelling is the one commonly used and recognizable in English. Common usage and wide recognition is demonstrated by usage, that is, the fact that the vast majority of the sources in English are using that spelling. As Somedumbyankee mentioned, nobody lays down a formal piece of legislation regarding usage. It is a continuous process through which a given form of spelling a word enters the language's lexis and becomes accepted, commonly used and widely recognized, thus defining it as "correct" in that language.
Hobartimus, you seem to be misunderstanding something: "tennis sources" or any source, as long as they are reliable, and the ATP and the WTA certainly are, are valid sources to verify information, including spellings of names. There is no such thing as "this source is only meant for match results". In this particular context, because we need to verify widespread usage, they are not sufficient on their own, since we need to demonstrate common usage across various venues. That does not, however, negate their position as the single most authoritative sources for anything pertaining to tennis, including the spellings of players' names — and notably because they are both associations of professionals, where the players themselves are members, which means that, unless there is a formal protest, players endorse or, at least, accept what their own organization is saying about them. And that includes how they spell their names.
Redux (
talk)
16:32, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Oppose: Diacritcs were originally dropped either because the original printing machines were not designed to recreate them, or because the original editor was either too lazy, sloppy or just ignorant to take any notice. The fact is plain and simple: diacritics are additions - not letter replacements - they complement the grapheme, and as such, they cause no difficulty when reading. Ţō ṭáķè àñ éχãṃρłẽ, ωĥö ṝẽâłłγ ṣṭřúģģļèš ťó ŕéáđ ţħïš ??? Every character in that last sentence is alien to its plain counterpart among the 26 basic letters of English. The human brain copes with diacritics by ignoring them when it is unsure how the letter is supposed to be pronounced in the source language. Names which are printed without diacritics are not transcribed into English. If they were, he who transcribed them would have to do a lot more to match the new form with the expected pronunciation. Here on the free encyclopaedia, we can all write names as and how we choose. If someone should come along and ammend a name by adding a diacritic, or moving a page to the relevant name involving the diacritic, it is primitive to revert it: it brings us backwards when our purpose is to be knowledgeable. I accept that no tennis lover can be familar with every language of the world. So if he/she wishes to use "Ivo Karlovic", then that is fine, nobody need take exception. If then one reader with a knowledge of the South Slavic written languages reads it and changes it to "Karlović", let us be grateful that he/she is aiming to improve the article quality by adding accuracy. In response to HJensen's suggestion that it is all right to use diacritics on such word as "café" because it is common for English, I wish to add that it too is often omitted, and where it is common to find it, you will also find the same writer using diacritics for other words and names which use them in the source language, except if that editor is unaware of them and even then it would only be a matter of time before he or she became familiar with them, and started to use them. It would be unfounded for any writer to use diacritics for some titles whilst discluding them for other things when he/she is aware of their usage. It would be even sillier for an editor of a newspaper to present forms such as Zoë (girl's name) and façade, but dismiss Vírag Németh as un-English when it is the editor here who dictates precisely what is and what is not English, at least for our sakes. It is incompatible: he'll either use the diacritics everywhere, or he won't; except where he is unsure. Here on Wikipedia we have millions of editors and monolingual editors need feel no shame when they reproduce a tennis player's name as on the tabloid backsheet. When your Romanian/Polish/Croatian/Swedish/Icelandic editor makes the relevant change, it will: a) improve the accuracy and raise its reputable appearance, b) still be easy to read whilst educating those who were previously unaware but are otherwise interested, and c) still be in accordance with some English language media. Now you cannot be fairer than this. Evlekis ( talk) 13:24, 10 June 2008 (UTC) Евлекис
Redux. I know exactly what I said in the above paragraph and my sentiments remain. I cannot find you internet sources to state that certain publishers omit diacritics on account of ignorance any more than I can find a source to suggest that television soap operas aim at the gullible and unintelligent. That is why I make these remarks on talk pages and not the articles. But if you can prove that the soap opera viewer population has a significant percentage of highly intelligent and respectable individuals, you might also be able to deduce this: (Local Name) - (Diacritics) = (English variant). But you havn't, and neither has anyone, and that is why this discussion exists. If removing diacritics is an attempt to anglicise word forms, then that would only be the first stage of the project. Before an English speaker is expected to pronounce the foreign name, a conventional transcription would materialise from somewhere. Look at the example for Boris Nikolayevich Yeltsin here. So, you are saying that: Jelena Dokić, becomes, Jelena Dokic (common English). To read the new form in English, you end up pronouncing the initial letter as the first in "jam", and the final letter as the last letter of "Civic". To keep her local language pronunciation, you'd probably want to write Yelena Dokich. Since our publishers do not do this, they clearly have no intention of Anglicising her name. And if they do not wish to Anglicise her name, why do we not have the diacritic? It could be either because they are unaware of it - possibly because they copied it from others who also copied from the first influx whose ultimate source was some primitive computer scoreboard on the courts, many of which cannot cope with much more than the 26 letters and the 10 digits - or because their own original printing equipment did not have the facility. These are just two reasons why some publishers may not use diacritics. Today, everything is available at the editor's fingertips. So if he should choose to ignore the diacritics because it is "the journal's policy not to change what it has been doing since 1972", that is their problem at the firm. I doubt there will be an outcry to have them removed by their readers! And in any case, keeping the diacritics out still does not make it "English", because you still have English language literature which observes diacritics. Nobody would accuse them of deviating from written English if they restrict them to the name of a foreign source, apart from those who think that Scandinavians are stupid for using /j/ for their /y/ sounds. So, diacritics may not be seen everywhere, but if keeping them is in breech of "English", so too is keeping the rest of the spelling. "Goran Ivanisevic" as you read it here is as misleading and meaningless in English as it would be in Croatian. As for my other comments, the editor being free to write as he chooses, I did not mean that he can blank an article and replace it with his own poetry, I meant that he is free to write names the only way he knows how, to misspell, editing free from the fear of being ungrammatical and in time, piece by piece, someone will ammend it for the better. One is not a vandal if he uses diacritics where others don't, even if the page has been move to the plain form. And this is where I say that we should not go to war with good faith individuals who install diacritics to improve a page's accuracy, which as I said, is in accordance with some English media. Evlekis ( talk) 08:58, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm being rather objective about it, not personal. You are missing the point. What defines usage is the fact that people use a spelling commonly. The historical reasons are not decisive, because Wikipedia does not get to pass judgement on them to decide that they are indicative of someone's original personal choice, or a general guideline in media agencies. That is irrelevant from the perspective of an encyclopedia. What concerns us is that a spelling has become common usage in English-speaking sources and verifies that it is the most commonly used in the English-speaking world, which in turn
defines the title of our articles. It is as I said: if someone argues that "I know that they are doing it out of ignorance" it's original research and a point of view. If someone says "I have experience in the field and I know that authors don't give it much thought when deciding how to write" that's original research and, more specific to the point of usage, irrelevant, because we are not here to define the historical reasons why a spelling became commonly used (original research), and certainly not to pass judgment on those reasons (point of view) and decide that we can overlook common usage because we have reached an understanding amongst ourselves on the value of the historical reasons and, by extension, on the value of the current common usage (both original research and pov).
Understand, I'm not disagreeing with anyone on any particular issue. Only this is an encyclopedia, we do not create new knowledge, we do not analyze and assign "worth" to existing knowledge. We gather and reproduce information, according to certain parameters (our policies and guidelines). That is why I say that anyone's sentiment or opinion in that regard is irrelevant. It has nothing to do with my own standing regarding any user or even any point concerning whatever reasons might have inspired the sources originally to start using a spelling. As far as I am concerned, you could be 100% correct. But that is still just not how the encyclopedia is written.
Redux (
talk)
12:44, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
I must agree with Somedumbyankee. This is becoming a case of refusal to get the point. You do realize that you said that a "misspelled version is not an English version" and that "it doesn't matter how common it is", which is saying that it is spelled different from the native and as such it is "wrong" and thus we should ignore common usage on grounds that it is "wrong", regardless of what the sources are saying and our policies and guidelines, which you quoted yourself. That has been addressed before; read specifically my explanations about transliteration in linguistics and the fact that our assuming that it is "wrong" on some philosophical, cultural or social level is original research and a point of view. We are an encyclopedia, and regarding usage, we follow common usage in English sources. We do not judge and decide that all the English sources are "wrong" and because of that we are authorized to ignore them. Concerning reliability, please read WP:RS, you seem to be misunderstanding this concept as well. Redux ( talk) 15:15, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Evlekis, I do get what you are saying. But WP:UE is actually very, very simple: "Use the most commonly used English version of the name of the subject as the title of the article, as you would find it in verifiable reliable sources" and "if one name is clearly most commonly used in the English-language references for the article, use it". That means, if such a thing exists, we use that spelling. If it doesn't (devided spelling, etc.) we use the native, most common form. I believe you might be confusing a couple of things: first, the rule regarding systematic transliteration refers to how we will list names with non-Latin characters, and it says that we don't use systematic transliteration if a common English form exists. "Common" means, simply enough, "used widely by sources". Second, exonyms are something we need to mention in articles even if they are not common usage, to demonstrate to readers how the word "works" in English. That has nothing to do with us demonstrating that the most common spelling used in sources is a proper exonym or a product of more complex
romanization. It is just a question of using the more common form adopted by the sources in English.
All we need to do is that we must be able to demonstrate widespread usage of a spelling in reliable sources. For tennis players, this is usually rather simple — which is why nobody has denied that that's what's found in English-language sources. That they are simply the native form minus the diacritics changes nothing. It's not our job to decide that it is "close enough" to the exact native form.
What you are saying about cities is what I mentioned earlier: it is irrelevant to make assumptions such as "if they were to write, they'd sure not use diacritics". Doesn't matter. That is not usage. If one source, once in a blue moon, does it, that's not usage either. When it comes to cities and other places, the rule is the same, so we have
Vienna not Wien,
Prague not Praha etc., but we have
Umeå, as you mentioned. Umeå is a case of no established usage, so we default to the native spelling. There is no law that says that those cities are to be called that in English. What exists is common usage. If it were to change in the future, we'd need to move those articles to Wien and Praha. In terms of article titles, we use the name that is common usage in English if that exists. And, of course, from WP:UE as well: "Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. It is not our business to predict what term will be in use; but to observe what is and has been in use, and will therefore be familiar to our readers. If Torino ousts Turin, we should follow; but we should not leap to any conclusion until it does."
Redux (
talk)
22:51, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
With respect, gauging concensus is something I have a little experience in doing. If you have 15 people supporting a point that we can ignore sources and carry original research in that regard, this will be taken in light of the facts not only that the rationales for so doing might have been refuted here, but also that there is a larger consensus, represented in
WP:OR and
WP:NPOV that says that Wikipedia will not, under any circumstance, carry original research and user point of view. So certainly, if we have I-don't-know-how-many-users saying "ignore the sources because they only mean that English authors are ignorant/don't have appropriate keyboards", those positions will be taken and weighed exactly for what they represent. Otherwise this would be a vote, a headcount. And that is not how Wikipedia works.
And I am very much aware that issues representing language structure have been forced around via canvassing in other-language projects and on en.wiki to harness similar PoVs and create a vote-like situation where a show of hands favors a specific side. Since canvassing has already been demonstrated to have taken place here, associated with the fact that many people clearly "voted" per same-old rationales, without reading previous discussions or caring to reflect, you should be very careful in claiming that I'm the one trying to sway any kind of result. Nobody likes being told that they are wrong. Assuming bad faith because someone will not agree with what you perceive as obvious is quite frankly, misguided.
Redux (
talk)
22:51, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Interesting. As you wish. You are certainly entitled to say what you want. You think I'm offending you because I'm telling you that you are wrong. You also think that I'm "burying" you under repetitive argumentation while you keep refusing to get the point (WP:POINT); I've been giving you a chance to demonstrate how negating verified usage is not original reseach and point of view. You think you don't need to because you have consensus. So I'll do as you wish and no longer respond to you. What I explained above still stands, the notion of consensus included. Redux ( talk) 13:45, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Obvious Oppose OrderinChaos has pretty much summed it up. I would add just two thoughts. I find it quite extraordinary that the ATP and others would choose to misspell players' names. They should certainly change their practice. Second, no-one would ever suggest moving Antonín Dvořák to Antonin Dvorak or Gabriel Fauré to Gabriel Faure; I don't see why Tennis players are less deserving of respect than other figures with diacriticised nominal embellishment. Eusebeus ( talk) 20:09, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
"This is madness!" When I look at this "discussion," I see a problem. Every time a new editor chimes in, a couple of prolific editors jump in and pick apart everything they say, often repeating the same arguments. I do not think this is productive, it makes the discussion confusing, makes it extremely daunting to anyone else who might want to participate, and obscures consensus.
Let's say editor #1 makes comment X, and editor #2 rebuts it in a reply. A couple days later, editor #3 comes along and makes a comment that is essentially a rehash of X. There is no need for editor #2 to repeat his/her rebuttal, because there is already a record of it in the reply (at most, editor #2 might add a comment that said "see this" with a link to the diff of the original rebuttal).
I was alerted to this page because of a Wikiquette alert, and while I understand what is being debated, after reading for 2-3 minutes I have absolutely no clue what the arguments are from the various sides, because this is just a hodge-podge. The discussion will be much more effective if people could stick to succinctly summarizing their main points. Thanks. -- Jaysweet ( talk) 14:01, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
This was a very sad proposal indeed. I wonder if it has occurred to a few users fighting diacritics that many English speakers actually know how to read them, and would therefore be misled if presented titles lacking them. I totally accept that many people will not bother to pronounce foreign names right. Or care to learn. But for those who do care for accuracy of information, diacritics are most essential. You thus have no right to promote ignorance on an encyclopedia, which is supposed to be regarded as a trustworthy and precise source of information. Hús ö nd 02:31, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
As said elsewhere this is not a question of spelling. UE refers to things like Munich whereas here they are suggesting something akin to Munchen Tfd25 ( talk) 09:08, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
We are still going around in circles on the actual point: the guideline is quite simple, and that is why it is not written in intricate terms: in terms of article title, we use the spelling that is commonly used in sources written in English. Our arguing that it is "wrong", "mispelled" or anything else is simply besides the point. It is besides the point because Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and as such in all instances we carry information, or spellings, that we can verify. Is it "wrong"? Is there a "plot" to vandalize peoples name that has been successful? It doesn't matter as far as we are concerned. If the evil plot worked, it is not our place to "right the wrong". It would be original research. Under our current criteria for inclusion, if an information is "wrong" but is the only one verifiable externally, than that one is actually the information that will be on Wikipedia — to change that would not be a case of amending only WP:UE, but also WP:V (verifiability), WP:NPOV and WP:OR (no original research). In terms of common usage of a spelling, if there is a rendition clearly widespread in reputable sources in English, that's going to be the title of the article on the English-language Wikipedia (title; the actual content of the article must, always give the native spelling as well).
The other point that has been made is that the diacritics-less spelling is not even "wrong", contrary to suggestions, for the reasons already given above (as per linguistics, etc.). I believe I used a good example concerning the title of the article
Charlesmagne; it is also above.
Redux (
talk)
20:52, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
The only thing that is obvious is what we can verify: common usage, that is, what the reputable sources in the English-speaking world are using. Other than that, it is us speculating on the reasons why they are doing it and then basing a decision to ignore common usage on our own speculations. It doesn't matter if I or any other user here on Wikipedia happen to agree with any given point, it doesn't even matter if we could agree that it is "obvious enough" why any given usage has become common practice. And it doesn't matter precisely because Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. As such, we reproduce existing knowledge and don't create anything new; applying that to the issue of common usage, it means that we adopt it as the title of any given article. What we don't do is pass judgement ourselves on the sources to decide that they are "wrong" and take it upon ourselves to rectify their "mistake", because the existing, widespread usage in the English-speaking world is ignorable for the reasons we ourselves considered. That is textbook original research. And because we are plainly speculating — doesn't matter if accurately from a philosophical point of view, it is speculative because it is based on nothing other than Wikipedia users' perception — on the reasons why a usage became widespread, if we conduct editorial actions based on our own speculations, that's textbook point of view, which we also can't carry.
I'm sorry, but "sources don't care to perform spell checks" is yet another speculation. If we were talking about a single source, already well-known for editorial carelessness, that would be one thing. But we are discussing common usage, and in this context we cannot discard usage, as adopted by multiple, reputable sources based on our understanding that they don't conduct spell checks, that if they did they would "certainly" use diacritics and thus this alleged carelessness allows us to disregard a clear widespread usage in English. Do you see how many leaps, how many assumptions and speculations there are in this? And even if
deep down we were to be right and those were true, because we are an encyclopedia it is still
not up to us to rectify anything. If we did, well, we'd be creating new knowledge, that is, original research.
Redux (
talk)
14:36, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Excuse me? Verifiability and accuracy apply, but verified common usage, as indicated on WP:UE, doesn't? What kind of logic is that? It only applies to the point where it is convenient? Not quite. If a common usage in English-language sources is verifiable, than that's the title of the entry. "It does not apply" based on what? Your say so? The say so of any number of Wikipedia users? A number of people, after canvassing is already known to have taken place, getting behind rationales such as "keyboard configuration problems", where a head count validates whatever point, regardless of what it is? This is not a vote, and if it were it would already have been voided by canvassing.
Now, ignoring reputable sources, which are indicating a common usage in English, based solely on users' assumptions and speculations on the reasons why that usage became commonly adopted in English and deciding, based on nothing but our own sense of what is "worthy" or "correct", that those reasons we ourselves indicated are indisputably the historical reasons why a spelling came into use and that those reasons are "wrong" and, as such, a verified common usage "does not apply"? You are seriously saying that that is not original research on our part? That we are not applying our own point of view if we decide that using the diacritics-less spelling adopted widely by multiple reputable sources as the title of articles is a "downgrade in quality", which is plainly passing judgement on what the entire English-speaking world is doing and deciding that it means nothing and Wikipedia can ignore it? We do not vote or simply decide that on this instance we can do just that. We have a much more significant consensus that such things are not permitted in the creative process of the encyclopedia under any circumstance.
But if I'm not getting this point across, and that would appear to be the case, since you have been bringing up the exact same points that have been addressed time and again before, and not only by me, then I suggest we use the conflict resolution process. Not to resolve a "conflict", since we are not in one personally, but in order to clarify what is an essential part of this project. It is impossible, I believe, to justify this "common usage does not apply in this case" pitch without essentially authorizing us to exercise point of view and original research in writing the project. Since those are non-negotiable on Wikipedia, we will need to establish, once and for all, what exactly is original research and point of view in editorial decisions. Because those are certainly not "flavors of the month" that we can pick and choose how and when to apply.
Redux (
talk)
02:41, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
Any opinion is a PoV, of course. But Wikipedia's point of view must be a neutral one. We do not get it if we carry information as Wikipedia users believe it should be, against what the sources might be stating. "Following the sloppiness of sources" is a slippery claim. In the case of common usage, and in this particular case, we are talking about multiple sources, most if not all of them, reputable. "Sloppy" is an opinion you might have on them. And they could even be sloppy, and we'd still have to reflect what they are carrying. We don't get to pick and choose when we are going to reflect the sources, when we are not and when we are going to reflect them partially. I don't know where you are getting that common usage doesn't apply to spelling on Wikipedia. It absolutely does, to the point that we have guidelines and policies establishing which variations of spellings are to prevail if more than one exists within the English language itself (British v American v Australian, for instance). We do not decide that we don't need to follow those on grounds that we might not like them, because we believe they represent "sloppiness" on the side of the sources. "I don't like it" is not grounds to IAR, and in reductio ad absurdum, Wikipedia would actually carry alleged "sloppiness", if that's what all the sources are saying — mutatis mutandi for common usage: if all the sources are indicating a usage as widespread and most recognizable in English, it doesn't matter that we the users might not like it, or disagree with it, we still need to use that as the title of the article.
As for confict resolution, or in this case, resolution of policy interpretation problems, the principle is the same: if we are unable — and indeed by "we" I mean not just us, but apparently the entire community, on repeated instances — to reach an understanding, we will need to start working towards a resolution, even if it ultimately has to come from ArbCom. You do realize, no policy on Wikipedia is enforceable if all people need to do to excuse themselves from them is claiming "my position is simply not original research, period", as
doc glasgow once put it very well.
Redux (
talk)
13:21, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
Please understand, and that might not be entirely clear: I'm not asserting that diacritics are not important, and putting aside my personal view on this claim of keyboard/software problems, I'm not even going to state categorically that there is no such thing. All of this would be my own point of view. And if it comes down to pov vs. pov, then we can't possibly get anywhere, because your opinion is as important as mine, and, as stated on WP:TRUTH, an opinion is usually perceived as the truth by those who sustain it. The point here is completely different: we have common usage for certain people, whose names are rendered without diacritics commonly in the English-speaking world, making that form the most commonly recognized form in English. We are the English-language Wikipedia, and because of that we have certain standards regarding using that form as the title of the article on that given person. The idea is not to remove all reference of diacritics from the articles themselves, or even to move every single article we have on people with names using diacritics to diacritics-less renditions. We need to have common usage, that is a widespread usage of that name in English that differs from the native. It is not a question of us approving or disaproving of diacritics, or even applying our common sense, not if our common sense is going against what the entire English-speaking world is doing. We don't correct every single source out there because we are an encyclopedia.
My reference is not so that ArbCom will pass judgement on the importance or utility of diacritics. Rather it is focusing on the situation of us passing judgement on sources, for reasons originating on our own assumptions and leaps, even if those are grounded, on our own opinion, on common sense and reasonable thinking. We still can't do it.
And this is a very interesting case, because here we are not dealing with bad faith, with people looking to hurt the project. Quite on contrary. Obviously I couldn't speak for every single person out there, but for the most part, it would be safe to say that the points are made in absolute good faith. Sometimes, we might trip on original research or even pov while trying to do our best. It's not just like page blanking, something only a vandal would do with the clear purpose of doing harm. But what I am reading here is that, without fully realizing it, and under the premise of correctly interpreting facts, people have been, at least for the cases where common usage can be established, effectively using OR and PoV in editorial decisions. I believe that to be the case because, if a widespread usage in English can be verified on external sources and we the users on Wikipedia are deciding to ignore it for reasons exclusively of our own — regardless of whatever merit they might carry — that constitutes, depending on the case, OR and/or PoV. So the proposal would be for us to start working towards a definition of how far we are allowed to go, regarding usage in English, if it can be verified on external sources. Can we verify something on reputable sources and still choose to ignore it? For our own reasons, even if they are with some merit? I believe we can't, because if we intepret and modify as we believe it ought to be done, we are doing original research, and possibly expressing points of view in the encyclopedia — in this case, in article titles.
Redux (
talk)
01:01, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Since you itemized your post, allow me to reply in a similar fashion, each item corresponding to yours, in the order you posted: