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In my country, vehicle registration plates are issued sequentially in ascending order, and I imagine this applies pretty much everywhere. But has any jurisdiction ever issued them in random order? For example, after CRX-385 comes VGQ-109, then BVW-687, then TES-984 .... -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 07:38, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
Well that specific issue would only seem to apply if number plates are centrally manufactured using that manufacturing system. This may be common but I don't think it's universal. While I can't find any sources specifically discussing the production of new plates in Malaysia, my impression is it's not the case in Malaysia. See these sources [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] Vehicle registration plates of Malaysia.
Notably our article mentions borderless vehicle registration, which would seem difficult if the office also has to issue the plates. I mean it's possible that each office keep a stack of plates for all 16 states and territories but this still seems very complicated. My understanding is the registration numbers (which include letters) are issued by the JPJ offices, these plates themselves are normally produced by the vehicle supplier or sometimes buyer, or someone contracted by them. My impression is that the plates tend to be issued before the car is sold, I'm not sure if the supplier is listed as the owner or the registration is only part completely or I'm simply wrong. (One reason many jurisdictions use centralised production of standard plates is to make it more difficult to produce fake plates & also ensure consistency which as the sources attest is an issue in Malaysia. That said, you could imagine a place with a good rule of law system where the production is not centralised but well regulated.)
Plates there were and I think still generally have their letters either printed on, or premolded letters stuck on. Using most modern computer printing systems, I don't believe there will be that much difference between printing consecutive plates or completely different ones. For premolded letters, it would likely be significantly easier to produce consecutive plates. (For a human, you could simple remember what you are producing and then get a whole bunch of the right letters and numbers.)
But if I'm right and the production system is largely decentralised, I'm not sure whether this is really the big issue. (How many are normally produced at a time? 100?). Especially since Malaysia is still a fairly low wage economy when you considered the exploitative use of migrant labour. A bigger problem is in the pre-computerised world ensuring uniqueness is a lot more complicated. I guess the simplest is filing the registration details alphanumerically and so when you file the details for the newly issued registration, you'll come across it if that number has already been issued. But this is a lot more complicated than simply issuing consecutive numbers, and also what do you do with multiple independent offices issuing registrations? The alternative is not worrying about duplicates being issued, but given the purpose of number plates that doesn't generally work. (You could issue very long number plates so the chance it would happen by chance is very low, but that would mean remembering it becomes difficult.) Plus you'll probably still want to file the registration details alphanumerically, otherwise how are you going to find it if needed? In modern times, if you're willing to rely on your computer system, you can trivial issue unique numbers, but that would mean changing your existing system.
Nil Einne ( talk) 05:31, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
But that's highly questionable. As I said in my reply, it seems definitely possible in a system like Malaysia's if you add and are willing to rely on computerised database and the a system to generate random numbers something definitelysurely possible with current tech. The primary issue in modern times is not technological, but simply that's there's no reason to change from any system that works into something else. Or to put it a different way the closest to a correct answer is "not reasonable using technology in the 1970 and that or earlier was when most systems are designed; so even if it's possible using technology now, no one is likely to do it".
(As the sources note, there is a plan to change the Malaysian system but this seems to be more about the greater ease to prevent fraud by centralising production rather than the cost savings thereof. Also even with centralised production, as I noted with computer printed plates it's not likely there will be much difference between consecutive vs random although these may pose some security concerns compared to pressed metal.) The borderless registration suggests a computerised database is already used in Malaysia. The nature of Malaysian bureaucracy makes me think there's probably still a fair amount of inefficient paperwork (although there are reasons why you'd want a paperwork backend even in an efficient bureaucracy), but that's not a technology requirement. And in any case, it's likely you could make a system using current technology which would make the paperwork-load acceptable.
The real problem is if you ever need to back to your paperwork because your computer system fails, but that's not a purely technological problem per se, and it's questionable if it's ever solvable. (At most, improved technology may give us increased confidence the system will not fail catastrophically.) Plus increasingly systems are designed around not having such a fail-safe, or using the failsafe only for real emergencies in the real short term so it's questionable if it's really a barrier.
Incidentally if you really want to use pressed metal I still question whether it's purely a technological barrier per se. I'm fairly sure you could come up with modern entirely computerised production which would not be that expensive once in place to produce random plates although it would still be a fair investment for questionable reasons. Whether it's ever not going be more significantly efficient to press consecutive plates vs random I'm not sure. (Perhaps some sort of dot-matrix used to press metal? Although I still wonder if the movement of the other dots when you wouldn't normally have to would increase wear and tear. I mean you could talk about wacky ideas like nanites or some other randomness albeit why you'd want plates in such a world I'm not sure. If you can't find a system, then the problem isn't technological but physical.)
Nil Einne ( talk) 07:18, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
Looking into this a bit more trying to find under places which don't use pressed metal plates, I ironically out found the UK appears to be another. This isn't well discussed in our article, although it does mention mention most are flat plastic but some use pressed metal. Flat plastic probably means printed, although this isn't explicitly stated. One thing our articles does discuss in some details is who produces them. It sounds like the system in the UK is similar to that in Malaysia. The numbers are issued and then it's up to the car supplier or whoever to have them made.
This is one company which sells production equipment [7]. While the mode of operation isn't well described, I don't see anything to suggest it will make any real difference whether you're producing consecutive or random plates. You can see other machines in operation here [8] [9] [10] [11] [12], ditto. Maybe I didn't explain this well but even for pressed metal plates, while it's significantly easier to produce consecutive plates even with most entirely computerised systems that you can imagine (as it is for adhesive premolded letters), if you're not mass producing them but only producing e.g. 100 a day it's not likely to be such a big deal [13]. And it remains unclear to me if it's particularly common to produce more than 100 consecutive plates a day in the UK or Malaysia even for major suppliers of cars.
In the particular case of the UK, various sources including [14] which claim they're illegal for cars since 2001 suggest to me that pressed number plates are rarely coming from car suppliers anyway. Most of them seem to be using the printed variety. So it's fairly like most suppliers are using equipment where there's actually little advantage to producing consecutive plates. </p
Note that while mass production has advantages, the earlier system described for plates means these need to then be transported around and supplied by the government department responsible. The system used in Malaysia and the UK where it seems numbers are issued and the supplier then produces the plate eliminates this. (Of course as much as anything it gets back to my main point. Places are doing what they choose for whatever reasons at the time this started and you'll need good reasons or government corruption to change the current system regardless of whether it's possible, or could even be more cost effective in the long run.)
P.S. To be clear, the legality is hotly disputed [15] & there are sellers claiming road legal but the fact this is so much of an issue would seem to imply car suppliers are probably not dealing with it. P.P.S. Also I didn't really make this clear, but there are obvious advantages to the system used in Malaysia, or the UK that will be lost with a random system that go beyond the ease of issuing the numbers. These advantages are a lot less when most numbers will just be checked on a computer database anyway; still they add to the question, why would you want to change just because you can? P.P.P.S. I noticed this question before a lot of the earlier discussion but purposely avoided it since I thought the problem of avoiding duplicates when issuing random numbers without a centralised computerised database was obvious, although not something easy to source and you were just wondering if anyone did it anyway. And I also know you often don't find my responses that helpful. But my dislike for questionable information means I couldn't help myself once it was suggested that the production difficulties for mass produced pressed plates are the primary issue. When at best, this would only apply in places that use such a system.
Nil Einne ( talk) 10:40, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
Confirming Nil Einne's observation, here in Britain I have seen dealers providing number plates while the customer waits by sticking numbers and letters on blank plates drawn from stock. The standard (which I believe is EU wide) is black on white for the front and black on yellow for the rear. - 82.13.208.70 15:21, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
“Israel should have been a water basket case,” says Siegel, listing its problems: 60% of the land is desert and the rest is arid. Rainfall has fallen to half its 1948 average, apparently thanks to climate change, and as global warming progresses, Israel and the whole Levant are expected to become even drier – and from 1948, Israel’s population has grown 10-fold.
https://www.haaretz.com/science-and-health/how-israel-can-help-a-thirsty-world-1.5392651
The claim in bold seems too extraordinary to believe. Is there anywhere in the world that has undergone such dramatic change in climate in that period? Muzzleflash ( talk) 13:50, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
Miscellaneous desk | ||
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< January 18 | << Dec | January | Feb >> | January 20 > |
Welcome to the Wikipedia Miscellaneous Reference Desk Archives |
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In my country, vehicle registration plates are issued sequentially in ascending order, and I imagine this applies pretty much everywhere. But has any jurisdiction ever issued them in random order? For example, after CRX-385 comes VGQ-109, then BVW-687, then TES-984 .... -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 07:38, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
Well that specific issue would only seem to apply if number plates are centrally manufactured using that manufacturing system. This may be common but I don't think it's universal. While I can't find any sources specifically discussing the production of new plates in Malaysia, my impression is it's not the case in Malaysia. See these sources [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] Vehicle registration plates of Malaysia.
Notably our article mentions borderless vehicle registration, which would seem difficult if the office also has to issue the plates. I mean it's possible that each office keep a stack of plates for all 16 states and territories but this still seems very complicated. My understanding is the registration numbers (which include letters) are issued by the JPJ offices, these plates themselves are normally produced by the vehicle supplier or sometimes buyer, or someone contracted by them. My impression is that the plates tend to be issued before the car is sold, I'm not sure if the supplier is listed as the owner or the registration is only part completely or I'm simply wrong. (One reason many jurisdictions use centralised production of standard plates is to make it more difficult to produce fake plates & also ensure consistency which as the sources attest is an issue in Malaysia. That said, you could imagine a place with a good rule of law system where the production is not centralised but well regulated.)
Plates there were and I think still generally have their letters either printed on, or premolded letters stuck on. Using most modern computer printing systems, I don't believe there will be that much difference between printing consecutive plates or completely different ones. For premolded letters, it would likely be significantly easier to produce consecutive plates. (For a human, you could simple remember what you are producing and then get a whole bunch of the right letters and numbers.)
But if I'm right and the production system is largely decentralised, I'm not sure whether this is really the big issue. (How many are normally produced at a time? 100?). Especially since Malaysia is still a fairly low wage economy when you considered the exploitative use of migrant labour. A bigger problem is in the pre-computerised world ensuring uniqueness is a lot more complicated. I guess the simplest is filing the registration details alphanumerically and so when you file the details for the newly issued registration, you'll come across it if that number has already been issued. But this is a lot more complicated than simply issuing consecutive numbers, and also what do you do with multiple independent offices issuing registrations? The alternative is not worrying about duplicates being issued, but given the purpose of number plates that doesn't generally work. (You could issue very long number plates so the chance it would happen by chance is very low, but that would mean remembering it becomes difficult.) Plus you'll probably still want to file the registration details alphanumerically, otherwise how are you going to find it if needed? In modern times, if you're willing to rely on your computer system, you can trivial issue unique numbers, but that would mean changing your existing system.
Nil Einne ( talk) 05:31, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
But that's highly questionable. As I said in my reply, it seems definitely possible in a system like Malaysia's if you add and are willing to rely on computerised database and the a system to generate random numbers something definitelysurely possible with current tech. The primary issue in modern times is not technological, but simply that's there's no reason to change from any system that works into something else. Or to put it a different way the closest to a correct answer is "not reasonable using technology in the 1970 and that or earlier was when most systems are designed; so even if it's possible using technology now, no one is likely to do it".
(As the sources note, there is a plan to change the Malaysian system but this seems to be more about the greater ease to prevent fraud by centralising production rather than the cost savings thereof. Also even with centralised production, as I noted with computer printed plates it's not likely there will be much difference between consecutive vs random although these may pose some security concerns compared to pressed metal.) The borderless registration suggests a computerised database is already used in Malaysia. The nature of Malaysian bureaucracy makes me think there's probably still a fair amount of inefficient paperwork (although there are reasons why you'd want a paperwork backend even in an efficient bureaucracy), but that's not a technology requirement. And in any case, it's likely you could make a system using current technology which would make the paperwork-load acceptable.
The real problem is if you ever need to back to your paperwork because your computer system fails, but that's not a purely technological problem per se, and it's questionable if it's ever solvable. (At most, improved technology may give us increased confidence the system will not fail catastrophically.) Plus increasingly systems are designed around not having such a fail-safe, or using the failsafe only for real emergencies in the real short term so it's questionable if it's really a barrier.
Incidentally if you really want to use pressed metal I still question whether it's purely a technological barrier per se. I'm fairly sure you could come up with modern entirely computerised production which would not be that expensive once in place to produce random plates although it would still be a fair investment for questionable reasons. Whether it's ever not going be more significantly efficient to press consecutive plates vs random I'm not sure. (Perhaps some sort of dot-matrix used to press metal? Although I still wonder if the movement of the other dots when you wouldn't normally have to would increase wear and tear. I mean you could talk about wacky ideas like nanites or some other randomness albeit why you'd want plates in such a world I'm not sure. If you can't find a system, then the problem isn't technological but physical.)
Nil Einne ( talk) 07:18, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
Looking into this a bit more trying to find under places which don't use pressed metal plates, I ironically out found the UK appears to be another. This isn't well discussed in our article, although it does mention mention most are flat plastic but some use pressed metal. Flat plastic probably means printed, although this isn't explicitly stated. One thing our articles does discuss in some details is who produces them. It sounds like the system in the UK is similar to that in Malaysia. The numbers are issued and then it's up to the car supplier or whoever to have them made.
This is one company which sells production equipment [7]. While the mode of operation isn't well described, I don't see anything to suggest it will make any real difference whether you're producing consecutive or random plates. You can see other machines in operation here [8] [9] [10] [11] [12], ditto. Maybe I didn't explain this well but even for pressed metal plates, while it's significantly easier to produce consecutive plates even with most entirely computerised systems that you can imagine (as it is for adhesive premolded letters), if you're not mass producing them but only producing e.g. 100 a day it's not likely to be such a big deal [13]. And it remains unclear to me if it's particularly common to produce more than 100 consecutive plates a day in the UK or Malaysia even for major suppliers of cars.
In the particular case of the UK, various sources including [14] which claim they're illegal for cars since 2001 suggest to me that pressed number plates are rarely coming from car suppliers anyway. Most of them seem to be using the printed variety. So it's fairly like most suppliers are using equipment where there's actually little advantage to producing consecutive plates. </p
Note that while mass production has advantages, the earlier system described for plates means these need to then be transported around and supplied by the government department responsible. The system used in Malaysia and the UK where it seems numbers are issued and the supplier then produces the plate eliminates this. (Of course as much as anything it gets back to my main point. Places are doing what they choose for whatever reasons at the time this started and you'll need good reasons or government corruption to change the current system regardless of whether it's possible, or could even be more cost effective in the long run.)
P.S. To be clear, the legality is hotly disputed [15] & there are sellers claiming road legal but the fact this is so much of an issue would seem to imply car suppliers are probably not dealing with it. P.P.S. Also I didn't really make this clear, but there are obvious advantages to the system used in Malaysia, or the UK that will be lost with a random system that go beyond the ease of issuing the numbers. These advantages are a lot less when most numbers will just be checked on a computer database anyway; still they add to the question, why would you want to change just because you can? P.P.P.S. I noticed this question before a lot of the earlier discussion but purposely avoided it since I thought the problem of avoiding duplicates when issuing random numbers without a centralised computerised database was obvious, although not something easy to source and you were just wondering if anyone did it anyway. And I also know you often don't find my responses that helpful. But my dislike for questionable information means I couldn't help myself once it was suggested that the production difficulties for mass produced pressed plates are the primary issue. When at best, this would only apply in places that use such a system.
Nil Einne ( talk) 10:40, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
Confirming Nil Einne's observation, here in Britain I have seen dealers providing number plates while the customer waits by sticking numbers and letters on blank plates drawn from stock. The standard (which I believe is EU wide) is black on white for the front and black on yellow for the rear. - 82.13.208.70 15:21, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
“Israel should have been a water basket case,” says Siegel, listing its problems: 60% of the land is desert and the rest is arid. Rainfall has fallen to half its 1948 average, apparently thanks to climate change, and as global warming progresses, Israel and the whole Levant are expected to become even drier – and from 1948, Israel’s population has grown 10-fold.
https://www.haaretz.com/science-and-health/how-israel-can-help-a-thirsty-world-1.5392651
The claim in bold seems too extraordinary to believe. Is there anywhere in the world that has undergone such dramatic change in climate in that period? Muzzleflash ( talk) 13:50, 19 January 2018 (UTC)