November 4 Information

was Hoffman 1968 when the term collaboration was coined, or was it an organic addition to the language that he was simply the first to use in an academic journal? Double-checking what I think I know. Thanks in advance for any thoughts. Elinruby ( talk) 03:49, 4 November 2023 (UTC) reply

Reportedly, the term collaborationism was used in an article in The Manila Post of 3 April 1946. ^[1]  -- Lambiam 06:25, 4 November 2023 (UTC) reply

blink. Really now. Glad I asked. Elinruby ( talk) 06:40, 4 November 2023 (UTC) reply

A use from 1930: [2].  -- Lambiam 06:42, 4 November 2023 (UTC) reply

I just realized that I said collaboration. You are right, I meant collaborationism. This will be a can of worms since nobody in this discussion had had that on their bingo card. Bravo on both those counts.

Maybe this needs to be reframed as an etymology question. Any further thoughts welcome from anyone who has time, and I guess I need to spend some happy time with a dictionary. To refine the question: is Hoffman's definition definitive with respect to world War II? Is it ever a synonym for collaboration? Elinruby ( talk) 07:23, 4 November 2023 (UTC) reply

Ah, that's a different board, isn't it. Let me go ask over there as well. I originally asked over here because it seemed like political science; still also interested in any thoughts anyone may have. Elinruby ( talk) 07:31, 4 November 2023 (UTC) reply

OED defines collaborationism as "The practice of collaboration", it has only one citation, The Times 9 June 1943. "Marcel Déat.. outbidding Laval in the ardour of his collaborationism, continues to support.. the existing administration." DuncanHill ( talk) 18:00, 4 November 2023 (UTC) reply

yeah, it's messy. Thanks for the OED definition; the link I found was paywalled. Miriam Webster gives the more restrictive academic definition. So it isn't restricted to French theorists, but on the other hand neither does it seem prevalent in the wider scope. I guess I could make a start by disambiguating it from enterprise software Elinruby ( talk) 01:27, 5 November 2023 (UTC) reply

ngram unsurprisingly spikes in the early 40s, just to save someone some time. Hits in Google Books are overwhelmingly but not exclusively about Vichy. Déat was unquestionably a collaborationist in either meaning of the word tho Elinruby ( talk) 01:30, 5 November 2023 (UTC) reply

@ Elinruby:, since I'm sure Hoffman was reading French sources, it's worth checking French references as well. My go-to site for definitions and etymology is CNRTL, which has entries for collaboration (1753), collaborateur (1755), collaborer (1830), and collaborationniste (1940); but doesn't have the -isme form. (Click the 'Etymologie' tab for details. Also, don't miss the 3-D dynamic word graph tool; try going to collaborer, select tab 'proxemie', then zoom, drag, and click.) The Dict. of the Academie has regex search: try searching for collab.* at their Advanced search page and it will get you all four related words (still no '-isme' form). Mathglot ( talk) 01:39, 6 November 2023 (UTC) reply

Ah the 18th century mentions. Thanks for the links, these get mentioned somewhere in one of the related articles. I am going to change the wording to say that Hoffman "defined it in 1968 as", but I am still interested in the etymology if anyone has thoughts. I actually found a use or two in French-speaking Belgium in World War 2, which actually makes sense in terms of German administrative units, and one for Japanese-occupied China that might be a metaphor like calling someone a Stalinist. I was thinking that this would be Russian via Marx and trade unions, but I guess not given '1755'.

Oh wait regex search ;)?;) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elinruby ( talk • contribs) 03:11, 6 November 2023 (UTC) reply

I found conflicting sources about Ramadan in the United Arab Emirates, e.g.:

• Dubai's Department of Economy and Tourism: While there's no requirement for non-Muslims to avoid eating and drinking in public during the day, you may choose to do so out of respect for those fasting.
• UAE gov: Non-Muslims do not have to fast in Ramadan. However, they are prohibited from eating, drinking and smoking in public during the fasting hours.

a455bcd9 (Antoine) ( talk) 15:30, 4 November 2023 (UTC) reply

See UAE legal Q&A: Penalty for breaking law by eating in public which cites the applicable laws and fines or term of imprisonment. Alansplodge ( talk) 17:54, 4 November 2023 (UTC) reply

Yes but this article is from 2015. More recent sources seem to indicate that, at least in Dubai, it's not the case. For instance since 2021, people can eat in public in restaurants in Dubai ( source). So it means that patrons have the right to eat in public. But I cannot find an official source confirming that the law (or its application?) has changed. a455bcd9 (Antoine) ( talk) 18:12, 4 November 2023 (UTC) reply

The Canadian gov writes: In Abu Dhabi and Dubai during Ramadan, restaurants remain open, serving food as normal. So the ban on eating in public may only apply to other Emirates? a455bcd9 (Antoine) ( talk) 18:44, 4 November 2023 (UTC) reply

Our article on Michael Alexander says that he never knew what happened to his comrade Corporal Peter Gurney, presumably a victim of the Commando Order. Has anyone found out? DuncanHill ( talk) 18:28, 4 November 2023 (UTC) reply

Neither Alexander nor Gurney seemed to be mentioned in the only cited source for the article, The Last Escape. Alexander has The Privileged Nightmare (1954) republished as Hostages of Colditz (1973), but it looks like a 1999 interview for a BBC documentary and published in War Behind the Wire where he's quoted: "I’ve written to the marines headquarters asking for information about him and I haven’t had an answer. I don’t like to think quite honestly that he might have been disposed of at that time. It’s one of those things that slightly haunts me. I’ve just never heard from him." fiveby( zero) 00:15, 5 November 2023 (UTC) reply

Corporal Henry Gordon Albert GURNEY, MiD, Royal Marines & Special Boat Service: POW, looks like he made it. Anyone have Ancestry access to look at the document? wplibrary link. fiveby( zero) 02:14, 5 November 2023 (UTC) reply

The given names do not match.  -- Lambiam 17:59, 5 November 2023 (UTC) reply

But reading the answers given in the questionnaire Fiveby linked leaves no doubt that he is the Gurney we seek. Perhaps Peter was a nickname? DuncanHill ( talk) 18:01, 5 November 2023 (UTC) reply

...or Alexander misremembered the name of someone he probably most often addressed as corporal. Enjoyed reading something about this Peter Gurney tho. fiveby( zero) 18:26, 5 November 2023 (UTC) reply

( edit conflict) Or Alexander misremembered. If he inquired at the Marines' headquarters about a non-existing Peter Gurney, it might explain why he never found out what happened to Henry Gurney.  -- Lambiam 18:28, 5 November 2023 (UTC) reply

I strongly suspect an army nickname; "Peter Gurney" is a character mentioned in the well-known folk song Widecombe Fair. At school in the 1970s, we had a teacher, Mr Trinder, that everyone referred to as "Tommy Trinder" (when he wasn't listening), it was some years later that I found out that Tommy Trinder was actually a 1940s comedian. Alansplodge ( talk) 19:18, 5 November 2023 (UTC) reply

You lucky people! DuncanHill ( talk) 20:04, 5 November 2023 (UTC) reply

As a partial reference for that:

Someone called Black becomes “ Cilla” (especially if they’re male); Barker is “ Ronnie”; Gordon attracts “Flash”. Further examples include “ Nobby” for anyone named Clark or Hall; “Buck” if your last name is Rogers, “Perry” if it’s Mason and either “Burt” or “Debbie” if it’s Reynolds. Not forgetting Dicky Bird, Chalky White, Smudge Smith, Dinger Bell, Swampy Marsh, Grassy Meadows, Snowy Winter and Happy Day.

The Weird World Of Military Nicknames Alansplodge ( talk) 19:29, 5 November 2023 (UTC) reply

In school I had a teacher with the surname Avery. We called him Birdcage. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:38, 6 November 2023 (UTC) reply