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The article on Digital speakers seems to have only one reference, and most of the material in the article is not reflected by the referenced article (and some of the original research also seems factually wrong, or at the very least imprecise, please see the "Original research?" section of Talk:Digital speakers Arve ( talk) 09:27, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
In this talk on the Universe page, it has been suggested that mentioning yourself as part of the Universe is Original Research. I find this completion to be likely in the category of the statement "Paris is the capital of France" needs no source, because no one is likely to object to it and we know that sources exist for it. The statement is attributable, even if not attributed. Wikipedia:NOR
Should I start invoking explicit scientific research that any humans are part of the Universe?
Thank you, Extremind ( talk) 22:52, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
There are some editors at Wikipedia whose existence in the universe (or at least the known universe) is debatable. So, yes, it is OR. Zero talk 12:02, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
Do any of the 38 sources I removed from Islamophobic incidents actually say the incidents were ' Islamophobic'? If they don't, then why does Roscelese ( talk · contribs · count) keep reverting their removal? If a source doesn't say the incident is 'Islamophobic', then how do we know it is? Making it original research/ WP:SYN.
Similarly, the same user reverted my edits to British_debate_over_veils#Accusations_of_Islamophobia, a bullet list where only 3 of the 7 bullets are actually accusations of Islamophobia. With "Don't change the meaning to something completely different because you personally disagree with a term"; the second I got no edit summary as the user abused rollback (one of many times), the second I got "nonsensical".
The user only responds with ad hominem accusations, instead of responding to the issue at hand.-- Loomspicker ( talk) 21:14, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
In File:Morganucodon.jpg, FunkMonk recently replaced an older reconstruction of the early mammal Morganucodon, visible here, with the following image:
A difference from the previous version is the spur above the left hind foot, which I argue is OR. The only justification for including the spur seems to be that Morganucodon, a morganucodont, is fairly closely related to the later docodont Castorocauda, in which the spur is clearly visible in a fossil. While this does provide some reason to suspect that that Morganucodon had the spur, incorporating this suspicion in an image used in encyclopedia articles goes beyond the published evidence to an unacceptable extent. The spur appeared at some point in the evolution of mammals and that point might as well have been between the morganucodonts and the subsequently-evolved docodonts.
The matter is complicated by the fact that, via a principle known as phylogenetic bracketing, the phylogenetic relations between Castorocauda and later mammals that exhibit the spur make it likely that it was present not only on all docodonts but also on the members of other orders, including the eutriconodonts and the multituberculates. It became, in time, rather common. These considerations do not apply to the morganucodonts, however, which lived earlier. There has to be a first group in which the spur appeared, and this may well have been the docodonts, not the morganucodonts or a prior group. To suppose otherwise is OR.
The position may change. The reason scientists are unwilling to attribute the spur to the Morganucodon foot is that no known hind foot from this genus is well-enough preserved for the matter to be settled. Tomorrow, a Morganucodon foot showing the spur clearly may be announced. For today, however, the animal should not be depicted with the spur.
FunkMonk and I have discussed the matter at Wikipedia:WikiProject Palaeontology/Paleoart review#Morganucodon's extratarsal spur is unsourced. Peter Brown ( talk) 14:46, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
There is an editor at Dongan Charter, who first wanted to change the wording "Western hemisphere" to "Americas", I reverted based on original research and the fact that it was his own POV, that the source itself says Western Hemisphere and therefore we can't substitute Americas. In response he/she has decided that removing the ENTIRE sentence and source is appropriate because the source itself is wrong because, in his/her own words- "Liverpool is two degrees" in the Western Hemisphere. I reverted again based on NOR and NPOV, a source must be used as it is intended at face value unless another source can show it is incorrect factually, he cant just say "Liverpool is west" of the Prime Meridian and therefore in the Western Hemisphere and of course Liverpool's charter is an older continuously in use charter (which I don't know that all to be true, but what I do know is when people say Western Hemisphere, they don't mean western England or Ireland or Portugal). Camelbinky ( talk) 20:04, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
Western hemisphere is the exact wording used in the source. The term has multiple meanings. According to some of those meanings the reliable source is absolutely correct correct. According to some of those meanings, it MAY NOT be (but is not guaranteed to be) While consensus could certainly choose to paraphrase differently, it is by definition WP:OR to attempt to prove the reliable source wrong. Technically yes, the western hemisphere includes small parts of europe. But unless you have a source specifically saying that "the oldest/bestest/whateverest Whatever" is actually in Portugal, Wales, or Ireland, etc you haven't actually shown that the reliable source is incorrect by ANY definition of the term western hemisphere. Gaijin42 ( talk) 16:46, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
I think everyone would agree that editors can not add information that is based on OR to an article... but what about using OR to justify the removal or omission of information?
My understanding of the policy is that this would be OK. We are allowed to use editorial judgement in determining what an article talks about and what it does not talk about, and we are allowed to make OR based arguments on a talk page (within reason)... so if my OR based arguments to remove or omit some bit of information are convincing enough, the editors at the article can reach the editorial consensus judgement to remove or omit it. I would love to hear what others say on this question... Am I missing something? If so, what... and if not, is this something that we should note in the policy (or is it better left unsaid). Blueboar ( talk) 14:43, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
This has been discussed before. The consensus was that since there is no requirement to put any particular piece of information in an article, the NOR policy does not apply to excluding information, only including information. Any requirement to include information would come from the NPOV policy, not this one.
There could be cases, especially in articles about places, where editors with local knowledge may be able to argue that some normally reliable source is just wrong on some fact of low importance, so the fact can just be dropped. For example, Google Maps might show that one can travel from point A to point B on Little Dirt Road, but several editors might report that the road is not continuous; there is a barn right in the middle of what Google Maps claims is the road about half way from point A to point B.
Somebody is sure to suggest that one can always find a reliable source to prove that the other reliable source is wrong. Not always, and in any case, it may be more expedient to rely on original research rather than trying to find additional source on some obscure point, and there is NO policy against doing so. Jc3s5h ( talk) 20:37, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This concerns a correction I made to the the article Six Day War. There are 2 photos in the article that make statements to the effect of they containing "Israeli children" when the photos also contain adult men and women (which I believe the average person will safely assume the adults there to be Israelies as well). As such, I made THIS edit correction, with an explanatory summary statement and left a message in the article's talk page HERE as well. My edit was reverted HERE by User:Irondome with the comment "Thats called OR. And you spelled "Israeli" incorrectly" (I don't really care how he wants to spell Israeli; that's not what I am objecting to here). The comment the editor left at the Talk Page can be seen HERE. And the 2 photos in question with their current (and objectionable) captions are these:
<<< "Israeli women and children in a bomb shelter at Kfar Maimon near the Egyptian border"
The above, I maintain, should read "Israelis in a bomb shelter at Kfar Maimon near the Egyptian border" (there is also an adult man in this photo)
<<< "Israeli children in a bomb shelter at Kibbutz Dan during the war."
The above, in my opinion, should read "Israelis in a bomb shelter at Kibbutz Dan during the war." (there are in fact at least 5 adults in this photo)
Now, I am perfectly aware the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a touchy issue for many. However, I bring no agenda here (as the reverting editor might be assuming) as I am neither Israeli nor Arab nor Palentinian nor Jew, nor from any other nation that supports either side. The one agenda I bring here is the Wikipedia agenda: WP:COMMON SENSE. So I ask, (1) did I err in correcting what appears to be an error clearer than the noonday sun, and (2) is it WP:OR (and how is it WP:OR?) to have made the change as the other editor has claimed? Mercy11 ( talk) 19:48, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
Irondome's position in this dispute defies common sense. If the image has an adult in it, plainly visible, I see nothing wrong with pointing that out in the caption. Someguy1221 ( talk) 02:14, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
Irondome, I don't know where you are coming from, but no matter how much I can AGF, your arguments are close to trolling. The one who should drop the stick is you. It is obvious that saying women and children in a picture that has women,children and male adults not only is inaccurate, but it is also subtle emotional POV. Calling it An attempt to rewrite the history of the photos and their context
is even weirder. If the problem is "Israelis" vs "kibbutz volunteers" or whatever, let's just write "People in a bomb shelter...": singling out women,children and men is after all useless and this way we avoid pigeonholing them as civilians/Israelis/whatever. --
cyclopia
speak!
11:27, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
One might suspect a POV-pushing issue here from the fact that almost all the images in the article except maps are of Israelis, with an emphasis on Israeli civilians. According to the image description page, the image "Israeli women and children in a bomb shelter" is originally "התושבים במקלט במלחמת ששת הימים". My Hebrew ain't great, but I believe התושבים means "residents" not "women and children". There is also extra Hebrew text about women, children and yeshiva students, but it comes from a pikiwiki page and I don't know why that is a reliable source. The propagandistic nature of the images and their description in their Israeli sources is obvious. The rules about OR are not the only applicable rules; NPOV is also highly relevant. Just as we neutralize the language of polemic sources when we summarise them, we should neutralize image descriptions. Putting my wikilawyering hat on: Blueboar is usually right but in this case I think it is not true that strict interpretation of WP:NOR requires us to use the image description of the source. The point is that the source doesn't contain only the description, it also contains the image. Both the image and its description are information provided by the source and our task is to summarize all this information without adding information that is not presented by the source. The source containing the image with the man is providing the information that there was a man there and it is not OR to say so. Zero talk 10:40, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
Just a side note... If the original source for a photo (a book, newspaper, museum archive, etc.) has a caption accompanying the photo, it is not OR to repeat that caption in Wikipedia... but, if we do so we need to cite where the caption's text came from. And, if that original caption is biased or controversial, then we should also directly link the caption to the source through attribution in our caption. For example: saying something like: ... "This photograph (from the archives of the Luxembourg Museum of Belgian War Atrocities) is captioned: Innocent Luxembourger women and children cowering in a bomb shelter during the evil Belgian mortar attacks. <cite museum archives>" would pass WP:OR, WP:NPOV and WP:V. While clearly biased, such an attributed caption would indicate that the bias is that of the museum, and not our article. Blueboar ( talk) 12:08, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
it is not up to us to change the caption to be "neutral" or be less sympathetic to Israelis- Yes, it is. We can use a photo and add our own caption -indeed, that's what we almost always do on WP. And that is what it should be done here. A photo is a thing, the caption is another thing, we are not required (AFAIK) to use them together. And if we were to use the original caption, it should be clearly put between quotes and indicated as such, e.g. Original caption: "..." -- cyclopia speak! 16:07, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
It was proposed by User:Barnabypage, and seconded by User:Irondome, to use "people in an Israeli bomb shelter at Kfar Maimon" for the 1st photo).
I also proposed, and was seconded by User:Barnabypage ("Agreed. I can't see that a caption must be exhaustively descriptive") to use ""people in a bomb shelter at Kibbutz Dan" for the 2nd photo.
Here are some thoughts from the community of participants:
SUPPORTING changes to the 2 photo captions:
- User:TheRedPenOfDoom - "It is a straightforward descriptive statement that anyone can be verified by any educated person that the photos contain more than children."TRPoD
- User:AndyTheGrump - "Clearly, any caption must be NPOV, and not misleading, but beyond that, the exact wording is no more laid down by policy than any other article content."
- User:Someguy1221 - "Irondome's position in this dispute defies common sense. If the image has an adult in it, plainly visible, I see nothing wrong with pointing that out in the caption."
- User:cyclopia - "Irondome, I don't know where you are coming from, but no matter how much I can AGF, your arguments are close to trolling."
- User:Barnabypage - "It doesn't need pointing out whether the photos contain men, women or children. That's pretty self-evident. Can't we just go with "people in an Israeli bomb shelter at Kfar Maimon"? "
- User:Zero0000 - "One might suspect a POV-pushing issue here from the fact that almost all the images in the article except maps are of Israelis, with an emphasis on Israeli civilians."
- User:Pluto2012 - "I agree that reference of children should be removed in the caption."
- User:Sean.hoyland - "It's up to editors to decide how best to reflect the information sources contain and comply with policy/guidelines. "
NOT SUPPORTING:
- User:Irondome - "I would in fact suggest that the POV is in the attitudes of a couple of the editors here. I see no evidence of POV in the photographs or indeed the article. It has been worked over and debated enough. In the period leading up to the outbreak of war there were indeed feverish civil defence measures taken in Israel, and the very real fear of massed air attack by the large force of Egyptian TU4 jet bombers. Lurid threats were indeed made by Arab media against Israel, much of it of a repellent racist nature. I would suggest there are no Arab civilian photos simply because there was no existing photos taken. Any idea that women and children photographed in a bomb shelter is somehow propagandistic, while not taking into account the historical reality on the ground, I find disturbing, somewhat."
NEUTRAL (neither supporting nor not supporting):
- User:Blueboar - "We don't actually know if the man in the first photo is an Israeli, or if the adults in the second photo are Israelis." Since the current captions are supported by the source, I lean towards saying we should keep them. However, I do appreciate the argument that the current caption can come across as biased.
If I misrepresented anyone, please accept my apologies, it was not intentional, and simply move your name to the appropriate column.
Mercy11 (
talk)
19:33, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
Could I get a quick third opinion for a GA review at Kirkpatrick Chapel?
Two points that seem potentially OR:
Neither point is particularly major, as you can see, but I'd appreciate a quick opinion from someone more knowledgeable about this policy. Is it okay to let these slide? So far the article seems GA quality otherwise. Thanks in advance, Khazar2 ( talk) 17:35, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
I have started an RFC at Talk:TheBus (Honolulu) to discuss content that may violate WP:OR. Please feel free to review and discuss the matter on that talk page. Musashi1600 ( talk) 11:01, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
The article on Kubrick's The Shining has a clear OR problem, which I've tagged (and discussed at length). There is a section comparing the film and the novel, and it heavily leans directly on the novel, which is clear OR.
However, there is one fact about the protagonist that is sourced from the commentary on the DVD of the TV mini-series version:
My impression is that DVD commentary from the author about himself would be considered a primary source, and therefore not verified to WP standards, which would make this OR. MarnetteD ( talk · contribs) disagrees.
How do we proceed? - Dovid ( talk) 14:25, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
PS: it looks like the alcoholism comment is repeated earlier in the article, citing a secondary source. It might be worth citing both (as many as possible, really, dealing with a BLP and a subject like alcoholism). -- Rhododendrites ( talk) 15:48, 29 October 2013 (UTC)A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the source but without further, specialized knowledge.
According to Buckingham Palace [13], the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is definitely not a "Commonwealth Realm", or called as such. The whole claims ultimately rests upon a "Wikipedia-fiction" circular proof by a Canadian IP-number address back in the year 2003 [14] with no outside authoritative proof. --- 212.50.182.151 ( talk) 22:18, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
The No Original Research policy "includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position not advanced by the sources. To demonstrate that you are not adding OR, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material being presented." This notice concerns several sentences in the New Deal subarticle that while citing a reliable secondary source, directly contradict the findings of two scholars.
The current passage in the article is on similarities and differences between the New Deal and National Socialism's economic programs. The two scholars are Kiran Klaus Patel and John Garraty. The article claims that their findings as follows that the depression "led to a limited degree of convergence" in economic and social policy. (I do not quote the full paragraph since it repeats Patel's phrasing without quotation marks. This may violate close paraphrasing and substantial similarity practices.)
Near the top of page 5 of Patel's book, he starts a paragraph on the politics of the New Deal and National Socialism by saying “Needless to say, the political responses to the crises that emerged in Germany and the United States were different." Patel goes on to write:
"In an attempt to achieve that goal [overcoming high unemployment) both nations subsequently employed what were often strikingly similar instruments of economic and social policy; on this level, the crisis led to a limited degree of convergence. The most important cause "behind these similarities" was the growth of state interventionism, since both societies, in the face of a catastrophic situation, no longer counted on the power of the market to heal itself.”
I emphasized the key phrases that were omitted. By omitting the underlined phrases, the article suggests that the author found only a "limited degree of convergence" in economic policies when the author found "strikingly similar" policies in that area. The limited convergence was due to political differences between the New Deal and National Socialism, meaning that the New Deal was not at all fascist.
John Garraty's findings are also directly contradicted by the article. Garraty's article is available here. Like Patel, Garraty says that “in totality” the New Deal and National Socialism were “fundamentally different.” On page 908 of Garraty’s article, he writes that the New Deal and National Socialism couldn’t have been “more antithetical” politically On economics, they “displayed striking similarities.” The similarities in economics were caused by similar problems. The Wikipedia New Deal article completely misrepresents Garraty's views on economic similarities.
At the New Deal talk page the editor of the passage says that he deliberately removed the relevant material because he didn't want to take material "out of context" and confuse readers into thinking the New Deal was fascist. It actually confuses readers to let them think that there not "striking" similarities in economic policies. It is also misleading on the context. On page 4 of the book Patel writes “there was a whole series of similar initiatives in social, cultural, and economic policies in Nazi Germany and under the New Deal.” The similarities provided the “larger background” of his book.
In other words, the similarities between the New Deal and National Socialism were the basis for Patel's book and Garraty's article. The article gives the exact opposite impression. Quotations must "be representative of the whole source document; editors should be very careful to avoid misrepresentation of the argument in the source."
I am sorry for the length, but the passage violate No Original Research policy as well as Verifiability policy since it fails verification. Verifiability policy states "All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation that directly supports the material." The quoted and paraphrased material directly contradicts the source. I must disclose two items: Early last August I was blocked for edit warring in early August. While I was right on the facts I am now taking a different approach. I may also submit other notices possibly concerning OR, NPOV, and fringe theory. This article subsection has many problems.
I propose the following summary based on Patel and Garraty:
"Garraty and Patel found that overall Nazi Germany and the New Deal had little in common. This was because of vast political differences. However, both authors found “striking” similarities in economic policies due to the need to handle similar problems. Patel also identified a worldwide growth of government intervention in the economy as another reason for the similarities."
In summary, the passages in question violate two policies: No Original Research and Verifiability. Thank you for your consideration. LesLein ( talk) 15:01, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
I don't provide interpretations, just facts. If Pass3456 was right he or she would be willing to present unpleasant facts and let them see for themselves. That is why Pass3456 can't respond in detail or answer my questions. Again he tries to dodge the subject.
Pass3456 again omits the admin noticeboard (789 in archives) on his fringe theory. Only one user there supported Pass3456, and that was with nothing but a personal attack. The New Deal talk page is dominated by liberals who tolerate no adverse information on this subject. I acknowledged being blocked. It was for an edit completely unrelated to this paragraph. While sticking by the complaint, the editor who made the complaint later had the decency to admitt that some of his or her facts were wrong. One administrator made it clear that the facts didn't matter. The editors wasn't aware that Quotation Guidance requires immediately responding to false statements.
I haven't used original research since last March. That was after the Teahouse initially said it was okay (after another editor there said not to use it I dropped the matter). The only other time I didn't understand OR. Pass3456 is quite willing to tolerate OR in the New Deal article. FDR's speech and Isaiah Berlin's opinion column are original research. They're okay since they fit Pass3456's view.
Pace Pass, Patel only says that there weren't a lot of "in-depth studies." Examples of some scholars who have performed research on the subject and found economic similarities in various degrees are Garraty, James Q. Whitman, Stanley Payne, Dan P. Silverman, and Wolfgang Schivelbusch. Patel says that interest in the subject "revived" in the 1970s, something Pass3456 deletes from the article.
The first sentence of the New Deal article says that it is about the economic program. That makes economic comparisons relevant. Garraty's article is 39 pages. That is more than "part of a sentence." Here's a full sentence from Garraty's article. He says that despite extremely different politics and motivations:
"The two movements nevertheless reacted to the Great Depression in similar ways, distinct from those of other industrial nations."
I am willing to provide the full quote from Patel's book, Pass3456 isn't. Patel never would have written a book over 400 pages if there weren't significant similarities. He says on page 4 that the economic similarities form the "larger background" for his book.
Pass3456 is completely wrong when he writes that the CCC wasn't influenced by the German Labor Service. Page 400 states that in 1938 Roosevelt received a report from his Berlin embassy on the German Labor Service. THe U.S. didn't "copy these measures intheir entirety: instead, the it emphasized the fundamental differences" in political goals. Roosevelt wrote: All of this helps us in planning, even though our methods are of the democratic variety!" Roosevelt's ambassador thanked the Germans for their help. The CCC and the German Labor Service regularly exchanged material. Pass3456 must not have read Patel this far.
Some of the questions (on Kennan and the Ickes diaries) came from Rjensen. His statements were completely false. In the National Recovery Administration article Rjensen expresses no dissatisfaction with the Alistair Cooke quote on a "benevolent dictatorship." For some reason he has a different attitude towards the New Deal article. He once told me on the talk page that "There is an entire article on Criticism of Franklin D. Roosevelt that has details on charges he was pro-big business, anti-business, fascist, anti-Jewish etc." Pass3456 shares that attitude. The basic attitude is “Why don’t you go somewhere else?”
Some of the questions (on Kennan and the Ickes diaries) came from Rjensen. His statements were completely false. In the National Recovery Administration article Rjensen expresses no dissatisfaction with the Alistair Cooke quote on a "benevolent dictatorship." For some reason he has a different attitude towards the New Deal article. He once told me on the talk page that "There is an entire article on Criticism of Franklin D. Roosevelt that has details on charges he was pro-big business, anti-business, fascist, anti-Jewish etc." Pass3456 shares that attitude.
If Pass3456 is right, then the following sequence must be true:
1. Garraty writes in his conclusion: "The two movements nevertheless reacted to the Great Depression in similar ways, distinct from those of other industrial nations."
2. Patel uses the Garraty article as a reference.
3. Patel believes that in economic policy there is only a "limited degree of convergence."
How did that happen? LesLein ( talk) 00:15, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
My proposed edit never said they were exactly the same. "Similarities" does not mean "the same." I think everyone speaking English knows this. Patel's crucial differences refers to the politics. That was the real "limited degree of convergence," not the economics.
Regarding TFD, it wouldn't bother me if the article on Reagan mentioned the similarities between Reagan and Roosevelt. It's no secret that Reagan admired Roosevelt. Go ahead and modify the Reagan and FDR articles. I won't complain. Contrary to Pass3456's calumny, I never edited the article to say that the New Deal was the same as national socialism. I have repeatedly requested a quote indicating otherwise.
Paul Barlow provides an opinion, no new facts. Encyclopedias are supposed to present relevant findings, including those from scholars finding similarities. The similarities are important because the "charges" of fascism were "cautionary comparisons" by conservative critics. That is what the editors's of the fireside chat found. Several prominent academic articles have been written on the similarities. Patel's book uses the similarities as the "larger background" for his books.
This book was written by a German in 1933. Helmut Magers found "surprising similarities" (that word again) between the New Deal and national socialism economics. It has an appendix titled "A Fascist Roosevelt." Magers wrote that while Roosevelt would deny it, "it cannot be denied that his ideas have a resemblance to national socialist ideas."
Roosevelt's ambassador to Berlin, William Dodd, wrote the preface to Magers' book. Roosevelt sent Dodd a letter thanking him for it. Roosevelt sent Magers a note saying that he was reading the book with "great interest."
Since we all agree that the similarities don't mean that Roosevelt was a fascist there is no reason not to mention them. Until it became embarrassing, Roosevelt was often candid about acknowledging interest in economic programs from radical European governments. Why not quote the full sentence from Patel? Why be so fearful?
P.S., Pass3456 still can't explain where he got Garraty's findings from. LesLein ( talk) 22:05, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
I'm seeking to resolve a dispute with the State of nature article. My work was deleted and the editor who deleted it cited OR as the reason. I don't understand why he is calling this paragraph OR:
In fact, not only do I fail to comprehend why it's being called OR, but I feel like this is a strawman argument to prevent the article from being improved. I'm currently working on resolving this issue on the talk page with the other editor. That said, I would like some 3rd party perspectives on if this is truly OR, or if I am correct that it is not and that the other editor is playing politics to protect his 'pet article,' or something to this effect. Christopher Theodore ( talk) 01:47, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
I still don't get why it's such an issue to lead with fact, then present theory in light of fact... Christopher Theodore ( talk) 09:39, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
Kindly forgive me if I seem to be being obtuse, but I am trying to grasp this concept of original research from the Wikipedia POV. I read the policy, but the policy and how it is applied are not always one and the same. Also, by "expanding the subject matter," it was intended to convey the idea that the concept is being expanded to it's true meaning, not expanded beyond the scope of the concept (did you intend to twist my meaning, or did you just fail to comprehend? Perhaps I failed to be clear enough.). Anyways,
Christopher Theodore ( talk) 18:59, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
Please focus any further discussion on the articles Talk page, thanks. :-) Christopher Theodore ( talk) 20:12, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
My point was never that the article was about the universe. This has been the false presumption made by EVERYONE commenting so far.
From my POV, what the "state of nature" IS in it's physical sense is an important, integral, and obvious aspect to grasping the CONCEPT in it's philosophical sense.
Another false presumption EVERYONE commenting seems to be making is that I fail to grasp that the article is about the concept in the philosophical sense. I am looking at both. And I persist that both can and should be noted in the lead, and THAT THE REMAINDER OF THE ARTICLE FOCUS ON THE PHILOSOPHICAL SENSE! Since my point is falling on 'deaf ears', I haven't reverted that portion of the article. (take the other criticism to the Talk page if you have an issue, making proper rebuttals in debate is getting me accused of WP:TEDIOUS - this new issue you're raising has nothing to do with the matter at hand.) Christopher Theodore ( talk) 21:30, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
Over the past couple of days, I noticed this user named NYCWikiKid ( talk · contribs) has been expanding content on American/Canadian soccer club templates. Now am I saying I have a problem with expanding content on Wikipedia? Absolutely not. But what I'm saying is I'm trying to stay consistent with the current franchise itself and relying on past consensus discussed by the WP:FOOTY members.
These are the templates that are in question...
MLS:
NASL:
Defunct USSF D2/NASL clubs:
So there are a lot of templates here. Let's talk about the NASL template itself. There's a discussion regarding the 2010 USSF Division 2 Professional League. As we all, the NASL didn't begin play until 2011, but when you look at the NASL template, you can see the 2010 USSF D2 season listed in parenthesis. On the talk page, NYCWikiKid did point out the fact 2010 USSF season isn't the same as the 2011 NASL season and beyond. That means it shouldn't be listed. There was no organization called the NASL in 2010 because they weren't granted to play as a league until 2011. There was an NASL conference in 2010, but that does not count. Therefore, the 2010 USSF D2 season shouldn't be listed in any for under the NASL template.
As for the club templates. For teams like the Seattle Sounders, Portland Timbers, Vancouver Whitecaps, San Jose Earthquakes, Tampa Bay Rowdies and Fort Lauderdale Strikers. They all did play in the old NASL, but none of them have to due with the current franchise. When you look at every single template, you can see there are a few that just have unnecessary disambiguation or distinction links by name or what league they played in, and a couple of defunct templates with distinction references from when the club was founded to when they were defunct. As for the clubs that I just listed. Of course we have all the past clubs from the old days linked under the template but none of them have anything to do with the current history. For example Seattle Sounders FC (the current team that began play in 2009), you see links from the past clubs from the old NASL days in the 1970s or so. Links to the USL team from 94-2008, and the Championships that those teams they won. However, they shouldn't be listed under the template because regardless of the fact that they all have the same name, they're all separate franchises and do not apply to the current Sounders franchise. That goes for all the achievements those teams accomplished. I started a discussion on WT:FOOTY and have asked this user to join the discussion, but he's refusing to do so. As far I can tell, I think WikiKid is relying on his own research and ignoring past consensus that WP:FOOTY agreed upon and I think the templates should be fixed because everything was correct prior to all these edits being made. – Michael ( talk) 00:46, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
Hi everyone. Here to address Mikemor92 (Michael)'s concerns, and misleading information. There is a discussion here about the NASL template where three people, including myself, are in favor of the content. Mike is a bit misinformed as he says that there was no NASL organization in 2010. That is completely false, and clearly WP:OR. The present day North American Soccer League was formed in 2009. Their league was recognized as such. They were simply not granted a division status, which is a separate issue altogether. The USL First Division, a league within the United Soccer Leagues, lost its division 2 status. Both the NASL and the USL 1st D agreed under the United States Soccer Federation to participate in the USSF Division 2 Pro League (a temporary one year division 2 league). All the teams under contract from the respective leagues played in the USSF D 2 PL, representing each league. The leagues themselves were much a part of the USSF D2 Pro League as they helped to organize its structure. Therefore, the 2010 season was placed in the template to indicate its historical connection to the NASL. Furthermore, Michael takes a statement of mine completely out of context. Yes, I said that the 2010 and 2011 years were different, only after explaining why in full detail. They are different in that the NASL did not have division status, and the following year it was granted division 2. However, the league was still fully operational, much involved in the USSF D2 PL. Regarding the legacy teams: The New York Cosmos, San Jose Earthquakes, Vancouver Whitecaps, Seattle Sounders, Portland Timbers, Fort Lauderdale Strikers, and Tampa Bay Rowdies; along with recent continous clubs such as the Montreal Impact and Ottawa Fury; Michael brings up an opinion referencing franchises and separate teams. Again, Michael, you may be confusing club and team or club and franchise. It is not the same thing. The new templates I have fully updated are about the history of the entire clubs. I ask that all admins reading, that are not currently talking here, to review the work I have done and analyze what has been placed (look at the history logs of each). All information is about the history of the clubs which carry the legacy of all their years of existence. Further, no contrary consensus above has been reached. And I again ask that admins to come in and evaluate the work that some have been persistently reverting and preventing improvement on the site. Thank you. NYCWikiKid ( talk) 07:01, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
There have been some recent article changes made on the stated basis of WP:NOR, so I'm bringing them all here to centralize the discussion. These changes are chart removals, almost exclusively by a particular editor. Unfortunately, the editor in question has edit-warred to keep their removals in and has been rather uncooperative. Rather than focus on their misbehavior, I'd like to get the underlying issue resolved.
A number of articles include charts showing actors who appear in multiple productions by the same director. These are typically sourced from two directions. The fact that there is a pattern of recurring actor use is sourced to a news article that mentions this fact, preventing us from undue synthesis. The actors and their appearances are partially sourced to these articles, and partially to IMDB. According to WP:CALC, it is not original research to do simple calculations, such as counting. Many of these charts have been around for some time now, without controversy. As I see it, these charts add value to these articles and do not have any potential for harm.
Decide for yourself. Here are links to live versions of the charts:
I'd like to establish a consensus on what it takes to protect these charts from spurious deletion, preserving the quality of these articles. MilesMoney ( talk) 05:11, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
The judgement that "three" is the significant milestone and constitutes frequent casting, and is what was meant by the source you're quoting, does seem to me a personal judgement. Hchc2009 ( talk) 06:55, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
It looks like the relevant criteria for lists have already been compiled at WP:LSC, so this issue is closed. MilesMoney ( talk) 18:02, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia has at least two excellent examples of the proper way to list frequent collaborators. Take a look at the Feature Article " List of frequent David Lynch collaborators" which has lots of references discussing how Lynch prefers working with a limited group of personnel. There's also the Paul Thomas Anderson#Frequent collaborators section which starts out with an ideal reference—"Anderson himself has created a sort of loose family of collaborators, with many of his actors and crew carrying over from one film to the next." [18] Perfect!
On the other hand, we have the completely unreferenced List of frequent Coen Brothers collaborators and the List of recurring cast members in Stanley Kubrick movies. A poorly referenced example is List of frequent Tim Burton collaborators—all of the references cite individual film appearances. None of the references actually makes the statement that Burton frequently works with the same people. (Also note the unreferenced Tim Burton#Frequent collaborators section.) At Martin Scorsese#Frequent collaborators, the references are slightly better, including some that make the statement that Scorsese likes to work with De Niro, for instance, or he likes to work with DiCaprio. None of the sources makes the overall observation that Scorsese repeatedly works with a limited number of collaborators. More unreferenced tables or lists: Michael Bay#Frequent collaborators, Alfred Hitchcock#Frequent collaborators, Shankar–Ehsaan–Loy#Frequent collaborators, James Wong Howe#Frequent collaborators, Haskell Wexler#Frequent collaborators, Salah Abu Seif#Frequent collaborators, Andrew Davis (director)#Frequent collaborators, Jonathan Chik#Frequent collaborators, Carlos Hernández Vázquez#Frequent collaborators, Richard Isanove#Frequent collaborators, and Tarek El-Telmissany#Frequent collaborators. I would bet that the articles about the lesser known directors have had the "Frequent collaborators" format copied to a degree from the famous directors. We should determine how much of a NOR problem we have with this sort of table, chart or list. Binksternet ( talk) 06:06, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
So, smart NORN watchers, here's a question: On Sangram Singh, another editor attempted to create a "controversy" section, by combining together info from the person's personal facebook page (where he claimed to have won certain awards), along with official stats from the tournament hosts which did not show Singh winning, to imply a controversy. Now, it's certainly clear to me that calling this discrepancy a "controversy" is pure OR, and we'd need a third party source to actually make that claim.
However, can we even put the two facts simultaneously on his page? That is, can we say in one sentence, "Singh stated that he won award X in year Y.(source to Facebook) However, the official record for the tournament does not list him as a winner." On the one hand, both seem to be relevant biographical facts, and the discrepancy even seems to be relevant, but on the other hand, putting them together like that would seem to violate WP:SYNTH, since it pretty much implies that the subject is lying (or misremembering, or whatever). If we can't line up both facts, how do we decide which of the two to list on the page? Qwyrxian ( talk) 22:10, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
Hi, I have listed a policy proposal pertaining to dealing with_Lack_of_references_and_citations_through_Edit_filters at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy).Please do join in to give your valued openions.
Mahitgar ( talk) 16:38, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
Is this family tree here consider synthesis anymore than Stephen_I_of_Hungary#Family?-- KAVEBEAR ( talk) 01:11, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
I just stumbled across this and am baffled about how it complies with
WP:NOR. But it seems to have been stable, across a lot of articles, for a few years and I'm just not
WP:BOLD enough to do what I think needs doing. Can I hear the thoughts of other editors?
Here's the explanation.
And here are examples:
Luke_P._Blackburn#Ancestors
Thomas_E._Bramlette#Ancestors
Simon_Bolivar_Buckner#Ancestors
Martha_Layne_Collins#Ancestors
Ernie_Fletcher#Ancestors
J._Proctor_Knott#Ancestors
Preston_Leslie#Ancestors
James_B._McCreary#Ancestors
John_W._Stevenson#Ancestors
Is there something I'm missing that makes these geneologies, which offer no references to secondary sources, approriate to appear on wikipedia pages about Kentucky governors? David in DC ( talk) 23:29, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
Hej!
I am looking for help/guidance from experienced scientific editors who can help resolve/guide me on the "No Original Research" requirement -v- the related policy of Neutral point of view. For ex, the NPOV seems to imply some "latitude"
My only question for the present is: Is this better posted here or on the Editor_assistance/Requests? Thank you for your help! 213.66.81.80 ( talk) 13:58, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
Hello Doug! Thank you for your response. My point is when I read WP:OR, I found this under the NPOV section there:
What is meant by the words in bold? (I can get to specifics in due course, but I would prefer someone who has experience of writing scientific articles in the context of known heuristics for a phenomenon -v- a "requirement" on Wikipedia to thereby elucidate the "cause"...)
Kind regrds 213.66.81.80 ( talk) 15:20, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
Yes it is but nothing to do with patent law. I am struggling with "need" to provide a "scientific" explanation to the "nth" degree so as to prevent any further defamatory comments arising. This is why I ask for guidance from someone who has expertise in writing scientific articles and is well grounded in (observational) science heuristics. The issues are nuanced and will require a careful consideration because I can do what is being "demanded" (by a user who I suspect has little experience in heuristics) but I am worried in so doing it will contravene the Original Research aspect. I need guidance. If you can help, I would surely appreciate it. Kind regards 213.66.81.80 ( talk) 18:09, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
Interesting!
"...it is important that editors provide context for this point of view, by indicating how prevalent the position is, and whether it is held by a majority or minority..."
Presumably, one must cite a source for a position being prevalent or minority, or else it would be OR, and open to abuse by editors indicating "minority view" derogatorily to views that they disagree with! NZBiota ( talk) 22:01, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
In the article Police state User:Ghostofnemo added a list of "Features of police states". The list was at first completely uncited and only after an extended discussion at Talk:Police state#New section "Features of police states" did I manage to convince the editor that sources are actually needed for each and every feature on the list. The editor proceeded to add citations from opinion-pieces, political organisations and geographically specific studies to cite a list that makes general claims about all police states.
My view is that in order to have such a list, we will need at least a scholarly study of police states in general which defines the features of a police state. The main problem being that most of the features on the list is not exclusive to police states but can occur in most types of states, making it obvious that the list has been put together on what the particular editor views as being features of police states rather than based on real scholarship on the subject. Googling "Police state" and adding a citation as source for a general claim that a feature is a general characteristic of police states if a columnist just happens to call it a sign of a police state seems to be rather blatant WP:SYNTH violations. And there are certainly a lot of those kind of citations on the list (the mass of citations often being a sign of dubious content in my experience). -- Saddhiyama ( talk) 10:42, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
I question your definition of synthesis. Here's what the WP:SYN says: "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources. This would be a synthesis of published material to advance a new position, which is original research.[8] "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument in relation to the topic of the article. If a single source says "A" in one context, and "B" in another, without connecting them, and does not provide an argument of "therefore C", then "therefore C" cannot be used in any article." In the case of this section, there is no C. We have many sources discussing police states and noting why they are police states, and I am noting what these sources mention as features of police states. I'm not jumping to the conclusion that any particular state C is therefore a police state, or stating a conclusion C such as "all states are police states". Ghostofnemo ( talk) 00:10, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
Do you see a resolution to that discussion? Where? So it's ok to delete an entire section of reliably sourced material from articles, but disruptive to constructively contribute by trying to improve the article? I would think the person who was doing the mass deletion would be the one who needed a warning. Ghostofnemo ( talk) 07:35, 12 November 2013 (UTC) Someone who was sincerely concerned about the quality of the sources would find better ones, one would think, instead of deleting the entire section. Ghostofnemo ( talk) 07:38, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
fair elections?consensus has been reached on this page to delete this entire section and all the provided reliable sources from the article. Here is the diff of the deletion: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Police_state&diff=582390708&oldid=580697927 Does such a consensus exist? Ghostofnemo ( talk) 01:05, 21 November 2013 (UTC) BTW, when an editor is asked to provide a reliable source for an edit, is it a bad thing to supply the requested sources? You seem to be implying this. Ghostofnemo ( talk) 01:08, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
Here is the latest attempt at resolution, which has already been deleted. Note how the edit is a direct paraphrase of the supplied reliable source: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Police_state&diff=582794914&oldid=582788773 Ghostofnemo ( talk) 11:49, 22 November 2013 (UTC) This is the reliable source the edit is based on: http://www.freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world-2013/checklist-questions-and-guidelines Ghostofnemo ( talk) 11:51, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
OK, so let's say you are quoting a reliable source that says "Mr. X has been accused in the press of cheating on his wife." Is it original research to paraphrase that by saying, "Some news media have made allegations that Mr. X has been unfaithful to his spouse"? Police state=unfree state, just as press=news media, cheat=unfaithful, accusation=allegation, wife=spouse (in this context). Ghostofnemo ( talk) 00:40, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
I see your main user page is on the Danish Wikipedia. Are you a native speaker of English? That might explain why you seem to be confused about political terminology in English. Do you have any background in politics, government or law? Ghostofnemo ( talk) 13:19, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
Can a single editor close a discussion because he or she personally feels it's not constructive? And don't my questions deserve answers? Are they entirely immaterial to this discussion? Ghostofnemo ( talk) 12:52, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
I would like the help of 3rd party editors to resolve an emerging issue with "attributable content" regarding the following and similar examples. The struck through text is the stable article text which I believe is attributable content of the vanilla "Paris is the capital of France" variety, and if disputed a
citation needed tag and a little bit of effort from any editor questioning it is less disruptive than simple deleting.
Brugge/ Bruges
(English still uses French name, though in Dutch-speaking area)
The reason why this is in my view falls into WP:OR "Paris is the capital of France" level general knowledge is because it is "flemish+speaking"&hl= easily attributable without having to WP:POINTedly fill the page with standard Tourist Guide footnotes.
The particular case is here where User:Dohn joe is arguing that statements are WP:OR at the same time as deleting sources such as (1) Lonely Planet Turkey (2) Jordan, Adamič, and Woodman Exonyms and the International Standardisation of Geographical Names: Approaches towards the Resolution of an Apparent Contradiction Vienna 2007 and (3) Jean-Pierre Duteil Alexandre de Rhodes' Histoire du royaume du Tonkin 1999 which supported 3 of the statements the editor has deleted claiming "WP:OR." Since this series of deletions has been justified with WP:OR I defer to experienced editors in this subject (hopefully those who contributed to the current shape of the guideline) to comment. I do not intend to contribute to the discussion. I also do not intend to be frogmarched to adding sources for "English still uses French name, though in Dutch-speaking area" statements known to every schoolboy. Footnote refs should be reserved for less clear statements such as to which the (3) deleted sources above were attached. In ictu oculi ( talk) 05:59, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, as I said: "I do not intend to contribute to the discussion." I would suggest to other editors that the whole edit and justification of the edit by WP:OR be considered in relation to (a) the whole edit, (b) the whole guideline. Good luck. In ictu oculi ( talk) 06:20, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
I have reverted, for
the 3rd time, Dohn joe's removal of stable article content (more lines of the Brugge/
Bruges (English still uses French name, though in Dutch-speaking area) etc. type and sources). The issue having been brought to
Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard the User should at least give regulars here a chance to comment before deleting stable and uncontroversial content a 4th time.
In ictu oculi (
talk)
03:48, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
: |work=
ignored (
help)
the whole cosmic system of matter and energy of which Earth, and therefore the human race, is a part
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The article on Digital speakers seems to have only one reference, and most of the material in the article is not reflected by the referenced article (and some of the original research also seems factually wrong, or at the very least imprecise, please see the "Original research?" section of Talk:Digital speakers Arve ( talk) 09:27, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
In this talk on the Universe page, it has been suggested that mentioning yourself as part of the Universe is Original Research. I find this completion to be likely in the category of the statement "Paris is the capital of France" needs no source, because no one is likely to object to it and we know that sources exist for it. The statement is attributable, even if not attributed. Wikipedia:NOR
Should I start invoking explicit scientific research that any humans are part of the Universe?
Thank you, Extremind ( talk) 22:52, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
There are some editors at Wikipedia whose existence in the universe (or at least the known universe) is debatable. So, yes, it is OR. Zero talk 12:02, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
Do any of the 38 sources I removed from Islamophobic incidents actually say the incidents were ' Islamophobic'? If they don't, then why does Roscelese ( talk · contribs · count) keep reverting their removal? If a source doesn't say the incident is 'Islamophobic', then how do we know it is? Making it original research/ WP:SYN.
Similarly, the same user reverted my edits to British_debate_over_veils#Accusations_of_Islamophobia, a bullet list where only 3 of the 7 bullets are actually accusations of Islamophobia. With "Don't change the meaning to something completely different because you personally disagree with a term"; the second I got no edit summary as the user abused rollback (one of many times), the second I got "nonsensical".
The user only responds with ad hominem accusations, instead of responding to the issue at hand.-- Loomspicker ( talk) 21:14, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
In File:Morganucodon.jpg, FunkMonk recently replaced an older reconstruction of the early mammal Morganucodon, visible here, with the following image:
A difference from the previous version is the spur above the left hind foot, which I argue is OR. The only justification for including the spur seems to be that Morganucodon, a morganucodont, is fairly closely related to the later docodont Castorocauda, in which the spur is clearly visible in a fossil. While this does provide some reason to suspect that that Morganucodon had the spur, incorporating this suspicion in an image used in encyclopedia articles goes beyond the published evidence to an unacceptable extent. The spur appeared at some point in the evolution of mammals and that point might as well have been between the morganucodonts and the subsequently-evolved docodonts.
The matter is complicated by the fact that, via a principle known as phylogenetic bracketing, the phylogenetic relations between Castorocauda and later mammals that exhibit the spur make it likely that it was present not only on all docodonts but also on the members of other orders, including the eutriconodonts and the multituberculates. It became, in time, rather common. These considerations do not apply to the morganucodonts, however, which lived earlier. There has to be a first group in which the spur appeared, and this may well have been the docodonts, not the morganucodonts or a prior group. To suppose otherwise is OR.
The position may change. The reason scientists are unwilling to attribute the spur to the Morganucodon foot is that no known hind foot from this genus is well-enough preserved for the matter to be settled. Tomorrow, a Morganucodon foot showing the spur clearly may be announced. For today, however, the animal should not be depicted with the spur.
FunkMonk and I have discussed the matter at Wikipedia:WikiProject Palaeontology/Paleoart review#Morganucodon's extratarsal spur is unsourced. Peter Brown ( talk) 14:46, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
There is an editor at Dongan Charter, who first wanted to change the wording "Western hemisphere" to "Americas", I reverted based on original research and the fact that it was his own POV, that the source itself says Western Hemisphere and therefore we can't substitute Americas. In response he/she has decided that removing the ENTIRE sentence and source is appropriate because the source itself is wrong because, in his/her own words- "Liverpool is two degrees" in the Western Hemisphere. I reverted again based on NOR and NPOV, a source must be used as it is intended at face value unless another source can show it is incorrect factually, he cant just say "Liverpool is west" of the Prime Meridian and therefore in the Western Hemisphere and of course Liverpool's charter is an older continuously in use charter (which I don't know that all to be true, but what I do know is when people say Western Hemisphere, they don't mean western England or Ireland or Portugal). Camelbinky ( talk) 20:04, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
Western hemisphere is the exact wording used in the source. The term has multiple meanings. According to some of those meanings the reliable source is absolutely correct correct. According to some of those meanings, it MAY NOT be (but is not guaranteed to be) While consensus could certainly choose to paraphrase differently, it is by definition WP:OR to attempt to prove the reliable source wrong. Technically yes, the western hemisphere includes small parts of europe. But unless you have a source specifically saying that "the oldest/bestest/whateverest Whatever" is actually in Portugal, Wales, or Ireland, etc you haven't actually shown that the reliable source is incorrect by ANY definition of the term western hemisphere. Gaijin42 ( talk) 16:46, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
I think everyone would agree that editors can not add information that is based on OR to an article... but what about using OR to justify the removal or omission of information?
My understanding of the policy is that this would be OK. We are allowed to use editorial judgement in determining what an article talks about and what it does not talk about, and we are allowed to make OR based arguments on a talk page (within reason)... so if my OR based arguments to remove or omit some bit of information are convincing enough, the editors at the article can reach the editorial consensus judgement to remove or omit it. I would love to hear what others say on this question... Am I missing something? If so, what... and if not, is this something that we should note in the policy (or is it better left unsaid). Blueboar ( talk) 14:43, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
This has been discussed before. The consensus was that since there is no requirement to put any particular piece of information in an article, the NOR policy does not apply to excluding information, only including information. Any requirement to include information would come from the NPOV policy, not this one.
There could be cases, especially in articles about places, where editors with local knowledge may be able to argue that some normally reliable source is just wrong on some fact of low importance, so the fact can just be dropped. For example, Google Maps might show that one can travel from point A to point B on Little Dirt Road, but several editors might report that the road is not continuous; there is a barn right in the middle of what Google Maps claims is the road about half way from point A to point B.
Somebody is sure to suggest that one can always find a reliable source to prove that the other reliable source is wrong. Not always, and in any case, it may be more expedient to rely on original research rather than trying to find additional source on some obscure point, and there is NO policy against doing so. Jc3s5h ( talk) 20:37, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This concerns a correction I made to the the article Six Day War. There are 2 photos in the article that make statements to the effect of they containing "Israeli children" when the photos also contain adult men and women (which I believe the average person will safely assume the adults there to be Israelies as well). As such, I made THIS edit correction, with an explanatory summary statement and left a message in the article's talk page HERE as well. My edit was reverted HERE by User:Irondome with the comment "Thats called OR. And you spelled "Israeli" incorrectly" (I don't really care how he wants to spell Israeli; that's not what I am objecting to here). The comment the editor left at the Talk Page can be seen HERE. And the 2 photos in question with their current (and objectionable) captions are these:
<<< "Israeli women and children in a bomb shelter at Kfar Maimon near the Egyptian border"
The above, I maintain, should read "Israelis in a bomb shelter at Kfar Maimon near the Egyptian border" (there is also an adult man in this photo)
<<< "Israeli children in a bomb shelter at Kibbutz Dan during the war."
The above, in my opinion, should read "Israelis in a bomb shelter at Kibbutz Dan during the war." (there are in fact at least 5 adults in this photo)
Now, I am perfectly aware the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a touchy issue for many. However, I bring no agenda here (as the reverting editor might be assuming) as I am neither Israeli nor Arab nor Palentinian nor Jew, nor from any other nation that supports either side. The one agenda I bring here is the Wikipedia agenda: WP:COMMON SENSE. So I ask, (1) did I err in correcting what appears to be an error clearer than the noonday sun, and (2) is it WP:OR (and how is it WP:OR?) to have made the change as the other editor has claimed? Mercy11 ( talk) 19:48, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
Irondome's position in this dispute defies common sense. If the image has an adult in it, plainly visible, I see nothing wrong with pointing that out in the caption. Someguy1221 ( talk) 02:14, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
Irondome, I don't know where you are coming from, but no matter how much I can AGF, your arguments are close to trolling. The one who should drop the stick is you. It is obvious that saying women and children in a picture that has women,children and male adults not only is inaccurate, but it is also subtle emotional POV. Calling it An attempt to rewrite the history of the photos and their context
is even weirder. If the problem is "Israelis" vs "kibbutz volunteers" or whatever, let's just write "People in a bomb shelter...": singling out women,children and men is after all useless and this way we avoid pigeonholing them as civilians/Israelis/whatever. --
cyclopia
speak!
11:27, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
One might suspect a POV-pushing issue here from the fact that almost all the images in the article except maps are of Israelis, with an emphasis on Israeli civilians. According to the image description page, the image "Israeli women and children in a bomb shelter" is originally "התושבים במקלט במלחמת ששת הימים". My Hebrew ain't great, but I believe התושבים means "residents" not "women and children". There is also extra Hebrew text about women, children and yeshiva students, but it comes from a pikiwiki page and I don't know why that is a reliable source. The propagandistic nature of the images and their description in their Israeli sources is obvious. The rules about OR are not the only applicable rules; NPOV is also highly relevant. Just as we neutralize the language of polemic sources when we summarise them, we should neutralize image descriptions. Putting my wikilawyering hat on: Blueboar is usually right but in this case I think it is not true that strict interpretation of WP:NOR requires us to use the image description of the source. The point is that the source doesn't contain only the description, it also contains the image. Both the image and its description are information provided by the source and our task is to summarize all this information without adding information that is not presented by the source. The source containing the image with the man is providing the information that there was a man there and it is not OR to say so. Zero talk 10:40, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
Just a side note... If the original source for a photo (a book, newspaper, museum archive, etc.) has a caption accompanying the photo, it is not OR to repeat that caption in Wikipedia... but, if we do so we need to cite where the caption's text came from. And, if that original caption is biased or controversial, then we should also directly link the caption to the source through attribution in our caption. For example: saying something like: ... "This photograph (from the archives of the Luxembourg Museum of Belgian War Atrocities) is captioned: Innocent Luxembourger women and children cowering in a bomb shelter during the evil Belgian mortar attacks. <cite museum archives>" would pass WP:OR, WP:NPOV and WP:V. While clearly biased, such an attributed caption would indicate that the bias is that of the museum, and not our article. Blueboar ( talk) 12:08, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
it is not up to us to change the caption to be "neutral" or be less sympathetic to Israelis- Yes, it is. We can use a photo and add our own caption -indeed, that's what we almost always do on WP. And that is what it should be done here. A photo is a thing, the caption is another thing, we are not required (AFAIK) to use them together. And if we were to use the original caption, it should be clearly put between quotes and indicated as such, e.g. Original caption: "..." -- cyclopia speak! 16:07, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
It was proposed by User:Barnabypage, and seconded by User:Irondome, to use "people in an Israeli bomb shelter at Kfar Maimon" for the 1st photo).
I also proposed, and was seconded by User:Barnabypage ("Agreed. I can't see that a caption must be exhaustively descriptive") to use ""people in a bomb shelter at Kibbutz Dan" for the 2nd photo.
Here are some thoughts from the community of participants:
SUPPORTING changes to the 2 photo captions:
- User:TheRedPenOfDoom - "It is a straightforward descriptive statement that anyone can be verified by any educated person that the photos contain more than children."TRPoD
- User:AndyTheGrump - "Clearly, any caption must be NPOV, and not misleading, but beyond that, the exact wording is no more laid down by policy than any other article content."
- User:Someguy1221 - "Irondome's position in this dispute defies common sense. If the image has an adult in it, plainly visible, I see nothing wrong with pointing that out in the caption."
- User:cyclopia - "Irondome, I don't know where you are coming from, but no matter how much I can AGF, your arguments are close to trolling."
- User:Barnabypage - "It doesn't need pointing out whether the photos contain men, women or children. That's pretty self-evident. Can't we just go with "people in an Israeli bomb shelter at Kfar Maimon"? "
- User:Zero0000 - "One might suspect a POV-pushing issue here from the fact that almost all the images in the article except maps are of Israelis, with an emphasis on Israeli civilians."
- User:Pluto2012 - "I agree that reference of children should be removed in the caption."
- User:Sean.hoyland - "It's up to editors to decide how best to reflect the information sources contain and comply with policy/guidelines. "
NOT SUPPORTING:
- User:Irondome - "I would in fact suggest that the POV is in the attitudes of a couple of the editors here. I see no evidence of POV in the photographs or indeed the article. It has been worked over and debated enough. In the period leading up to the outbreak of war there were indeed feverish civil defence measures taken in Israel, and the very real fear of massed air attack by the large force of Egyptian TU4 jet bombers. Lurid threats were indeed made by Arab media against Israel, much of it of a repellent racist nature. I would suggest there are no Arab civilian photos simply because there was no existing photos taken. Any idea that women and children photographed in a bomb shelter is somehow propagandistic, while not taking into account the historical reality on the ground, I find disturbing, somewhat."
NEUTRAL (neither supporting nor not supporting):
- User:Blueboar - "We don't actually know if the man in the first photo is an Israeli, or if the adults in the second photo are Israelis." Since the current captions are supported by the source, I lean towards saying we should keep them. However, I do appreciate the argument that the current caption can come across as biased.
If I misrepresented anyone, please accept my apologies, it was not intentional, and simply move your name to the appropriate column.
Mercy11 (
talk)
19:33, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
Could I get a quick third opinion for a GA review at Kirkpatrick Chapel?
Two points that seem potentially OR:
Neither point is particularly major, as you can see, but I'd appreciate a quick opinion from someone more knowledgeable about this policy. Is it okay to let these slide? So far the article seems GA quality otherwise. Thanks in advance, Khazar2 ( talk) 17:35, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
I have started an RFC at Talk:TheBus (Honolulu) to discuss content that may violate WP:OR. Please feel free to review and discuss the matter on that talk page. Musashi1600 ( talk) 11:01, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
The article on Kubrick's The Shining has a clear OR problem, which I've tagged (and discussed at length). There is a section comparing the film and the novel, and it heavily leans directly on the novel, which is clear OR.
However, there is one fact about the protagonist that is sourced from the commentary on the DVD of the TV mini-series version:
My impression is that DVD commentary from the author about himself would be considered a primary source, and therefore not verified to WP standards, which would make this OR. MarnetteD ( talk · contribs) disagrees.
How do we proceed? - Dovid ( talk) 14:25, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
PS: it looks like the alcoholism comment is repeated earlier in the article, citing a secondary source. It might be worth citing both (as many as possible, really, dealing with a BLP and a subject like alcoholism). -- Rhododendrites ( talk) 15:48, 29 October 2013 (UTC)A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the source but without further, specialized knowledge.
According to Buckingham Palace [13], the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is definitely not a "Commonwealth Realm", or called as such. The whole claims ultimately rests upon a "Wikipedia-fiction" circular proof by a Canadian IP-number address back in the year 2003 [14] with no outside authoritative proof. --- 212.50.182.151 ( talk) 22:18, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
The No Original Research policy "includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position not advanced by the sources. To demonstrate that you are not adding OR, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material being presented." This notice concerns several sentences in the New Deal subarticle that while citing a reliable secondary source, directly contradict the findings of two scholars.
The current passage in the article is on similarities and differences between the New Deal and National Socialism's economic programs. The two scholars are Kiran Klaus Patel and John Garraty. The article claims that their findings as follows that the depression "led to a limited degree of convergence" in economic and social policy. (I do not quote the full paragraph since it repeats Patel's phrasing without quotation marks. This may violate close paraphrasing and substantial similarity practices.)
Near the top of page 5 of Patel's book, he starts a paragraph on the politics of the New Deal and National Socialism by saying “Needless to say, the political responses to the crises that emerged in Germany and the United States were different." Patel goes on to write:
"In an attempt to achieve that goal [overcoming high unemployment) both nations subsequently employed what were often strikingly similar instruments of economic and social policy; on this level, the crisis led to a limited degree of convergence. The most important cause "behind these similarities" was the growth of state interventionism, since both societies, in the face of a catastrophic situation, no longer counted on the power of the market to heal itself.”
I emphasized the key phrases that were omitted. By omitting the underlined phrases, the article suggests that the author found only a "limited degree of convergence" in economic policies when the author found "strikingly similar" policies in that area. The limited convergence was due to political differences between the New Deal and National Socialism, meaning that the New Deal was not at all fascist.
John Garraty's findings are also directly contradicted by the article. Garraty's article is available here. Like Patel, Garraty says that “in totality” the New Deal and National Socialism were “fundamentally different.” On page 908 of Garraty’s article, he writes that the New Deal and National Socialism couldn’t have been “more antithetical” politically On economics, they “displayed striking similarities.” The similarities in economics were caused by similar problems. The Wikipedia New Deal article completely misrepresents Garraty's views on economic similarities.
At the New Deal talk page the editor of the passage says that he deliberately removed the relevant material because he didn't want to take material "out of context" and confuse readers into thinking the New Deal was fascist. It actually confuses readers to let them think that there not "striking" similarities in economic policies. It is also misleading on the context. On page 4 of the book Patel writes “there was a whole series of similar initiatives in social, cultural, and economic policies in Nazi Germany and under the New Deal.” The similarities provided the “larger background” of his book.
In other words, the similarities between the New Deal and National Socialism were the basis for Patel's book and Garraty's article. The article gives the exact opposite impression. Quotations must "be representative of the whole source document; editors should be very careful to avoid misrepresentation of the argument in the source."
I am sorry for the length, but the passage violate No Original Research policy as well as Verifiability policy since it fails verification. Verifiability policy states "All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation that directly supports the material." The quoted and paraphrased material directly contradicts the source. I must disclose two items: Early last August I was blocked for edit warring in early August. While I was right on the facts I am now taking a different approach. I may also submit other notices possibly concerning OR, NPOV, and fringe theory. This article subsection has many problems.
I propose the following summary based on Patel and Garraty:
"Garraty and Patel found that overall Nazi Germany and the New Deal had little in common. This was because of vast political differences. However, both authors found “striking” similarities in economic policies due to the need to handle similar problems. Patel also identified a worldwide growth of government intervention in the economy as another reason for the similarities."
In summary, the passages in question violate two policies: No Original Research and Verifiability. Thank you for your consideration. LesLein ( talk) 15:01, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
I don't provide interpretations, just facts. If Pass3456 was right he or she would be willing to present unpleasant facts and let them see for themselves. That is why Pass3456 can't respond in detail or answer my questions. Again he tries to dodge the subject.
Pass3456 again omits the admin noticeboard (789 in archives) on his fringe theory. Only one user there supported Pass3456, and that was with nothing but a personal attack. The New Deal talk page is dominated by liberals who tolerate no adverse information on this subject. I acknowledged being blocked. It was for an edit completely unrelated to this paragraph. While sticking by the complaint, the editor who made the complaint later had the decency to admitt that some of his or her facts were wrong. One administrator made it clear that the facts didn't matter. The editors wasn't aware that Quotation Guidance requires immediately responding to false statements.
I haven't used original research since last March. That was after the Teahouse initially said it was okay (after another editor there said not to use it I dropped the matter). The only other time I didn't understand OR. Pass3456 is quite willing to tolerate OR in the New Deal article. FDR's speech and Isaiah Berlin's opinion column are original research. They're okay since they fit Pass3456's view.
Pace Pass, Patel only says that there weren't a lot of "in-depth studies." Examples of some scholars who have performed research on the subject and found economic similarities in various degrees are Garraty, James Q. Whitman, Stanley Payne, Dan P. Silverman, and Wolfgang Schivelbusch. Patel says that interest in the subject "revived" in the 1970s, something Pass3456 deletes from the article.
The first sentence of the New Deal article says that it is about the economic program. That makes economic comparisons relevant. Garraty's article is 39 pages. That is more than "part of a sentence." Here's a full sentence from Garraty's article. He says that despite extremely different politics and motivations:
"The two movements nevertheless reacted to the Great Depression in similar ways, distinct from those of other industrial nations."
I am willing to provide the full quote from Patel's book, Pass3456 isn't. Patel never would have written a book over 400 pages if there weren't significant similarities. He says on page 4 that the economic similarities form the "larger background" for his book.
Pass3456 is completely wrong when he writes that the CCC wasn't influenced by the German Labor Service. Page 400 states that in 1938 Roosevelt received a report from his Berlin embassy on the German Labor Service. THe U.S. didn't "copy these measures intheir entirety: instead, the it emphasized the fundamental differences" in political goals. Roosevelt wrote: All of this helps us in planning, even though our methods are of the democratic variety!" Roosevelt's ambassador thanked the Germans for their help. The CCC and the German Labor Service regularly exchanged material. Pass3456 must not have read Patel this far.
Some of the questions (on Kennan and the Ickes diaries) came from Rjensen. His statements were completely false. In the National Recovery Administration article Rjensen expresses no dissatisfaction with the Alistair Cooke quote on a "benevolent dictatorship." For some reason he has a different attitude towards the New Deal article. He once told me on the talk page that "There is an entire article on Criticism of Franklin D. Roosevelt that has details on charges he was pro-big business, anti-business, fascist, anti-Jewish etc." Pass3456 shares that attitude. The basic attitude is “Why don’t you go somewhere else?”
Some of the questions (on Kennan and the Ickes diaries) came from Rjensen. His statements were completely false. In the National Recovery Administration article Rjensen expresses no dissatisfaction with the Alistair Cooke quote on a "benevolent dictatorship." For some reason he has a different attitude towards the New Deal article. He once told me on the talk page that "There is an entire article on Criticism of Franklin D. Roosevelt that has details on charges he was pro-big business, anti-business, fascist, anti-Jewish etc." Pass3456 shares that attitude.
If Pass3456 is right, then the following sequence must be true:
1. Garraty writes in his conclusion: "The two movements nevertheless reacted to the Great Depression in similar ways, distinct from those of other industrial nations."
2. Patel uses the Garraty article as a reference.
3. Patel believes that in economic policy there is only a "limited degree of convergence."
How did that happen? LesLein ( talk) 00:15, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
My proposed edit never said they were exactly the same. "Similarities" does not mean "the same." I think everyone speaking English knows this. Patel's crucial differences refers to the politics. That was the real "limited degree of convergence," not the economics.
Regarding TFD, it wouldn't bother me if the article on Reagan mentioned the similarities between Reagan and Roosevelt. It's no secret that Reagan admired Roosevelt. Go ahead and modify the Reagan and FDR articles. I won't complain. Contrary to Pass3456's calumny, I never edited the article to say that the New Deal was the same as national socialism. I have repeatedly requested a quote indicating otherwise.
Paul Barlow provides an opinion, no new facts. Encyclopedias are supposed to present relevant findings, including those from scholars finding similarities. The similarities are important because the "charges" of fascism were "cautionary comparisons" by conservative critics. That is what the editors's of the fireside chat found. Several prominent academic articles have been written on the similarities. Patel's book uses the similarities as the "larger background" for his books.
This book was written by a German in 1933. Helmut Magers found "surprising similarities" (that word again) between the New Deal and national socialism economics. It has an appendix titled "A Fascist Roosevelt." Magers wrote that while Roosevelt would deny it, "it cannot be denied that his ideas have a resemblance to national socialist ideas."
Roosevelt's ambassador to Berlin, William Dodd, wrote the preface to Magers' book. Roosevelt sent Dodd a letter thanking him for it. Roosevelt sent Magers a note saying that he was reading the book with "great interest."
Since we all agree that the similarities don't mean that Roosevelt was a fascist there is no reason not to mention them. Until it became embarrassing, Roosevelt was often candid about acknowledging interest in economic programs from radical European governments. Why not quote the full sentence from Patel? Why be so fearful?
P.S., Pass3456 still can't explain where he got Garraty's findings from. LesLein ( talk) 22:05, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
I'm seeking to resolve a dispute with the State of nature article. My work was deleted and the editor who deleted it cited OR as the reason. I don't understand why he is calling this paragraph OR:
In fact, not only do I fail to comprehend why it's being called OR, but I feel like this is a strawman argument to prevent the article from being improved. I'm currently working on resolving this issue on the talk page with the other editor. That said, I would like some 3rd party perspectives on if this is truly OR, or if I am correct that it is not and that the other editor is playing politics to protect his 'pet article,' or something to this effect. Christopher Theodore ( talk) 01:47, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
I still don't get why it's such an issue to lead with fact, then present theory in light of fact... Christopher Theodore ( talk) 09:39, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
Kindly forgive me if I seem to be being obtuse, but I am trying to grasp this concept of original research from the Wikipedia POV. I read the policy, but the policy and how it is applied are not always one and the same. Also, by "expanding the subject matter," it was intended to convey the idea that the concept is being expanded to it's true meaning, not expanded beyond the scope of the concept (did you intend to twist my meaning, or did you just fail to comprehend? Perhaps I failed to be clear enough.). Anyways,
Christopher Theodore ( talk) 18:59, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
Please focus any further discussion on the articles Talk page, thanks. :-) Christopher Theodore ( talk) 20:12, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
My point was never that the article was about the universe. This has been the false presumption made by EVERYONE commenting so far.
From my POV, what the "state of nature" IS in it's physical sense is an important, integral, and obvious aspect to grasping the CONCEPT in it's philosophical sense.
Another false presumption EVERYONE commenting seems to be making is that I fail to grasp that the article is about the concept in the philosophical sense. I am looking at both. And I persist that both can and should be noted in the lead, and THAT THE REMAINDER OF THE ARTICLE FOCUS ON THE PHILOSOPHICAL SENSE! Since my point is falling on 'deaf ears', I haven't reverted that portion of the article. (take the other criticism to the Talk page if you have an issue, making proper rebuttals in debate is getting me accused of WP:TEDIOUS - this new issue you're raising has nothing to do with the matter at hand.) Christopher Theodore ( talk) 21:30, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
Over the past couple of days, I noticed this user named NYCWikiKid ( talk · contribs) has been expanding content on American/Canadian soccer club templates. Now am I saying I have a problem with expanding content on Wikipedia? Absolutely not. But what I'm saying is I'm trying to stay consistent with the current franchise itself and relying on past consensus discussed by the WP:FOOTY members.
These are the templates that are in question...
MLS:
NASL:
Defunct USSF D2/NASL clubs:
So there are a lot of templates here. Let's talk about the NASL template itself. There's a discussion regarding the 2010 USSF Division 2 Professional League. As we all, the NASL didn't begin play until 2011, but when you look at the NASL template, you can see the 2010 USSF D2 season listed in parenthesis. On the talk page, NYCWikiKid did point out the fact 2010 USSF season isn't the same as the 2011 NASL season and beyond. That means it shouldn't be listed. There was no organization called the NASL in 2010 because they weren't granted to play as a league until 2011. There was an NASL conference in 2010, but that does not count. Therefore, the 2010 USSF D2 season shouldn't be listed in any for under the NASL template.
As for the club templates. For teams like the Seattle Sounders, Portland Timbers, Vancouver Whitecaps, San Jose Earthquakes, Tampa Bay Rowdies and Fort Lauderdale Strikers. They all did play in the old NASL, but none of them have to due with the current franchise. When you look at every single template, you can see there are a few that just have unnecessary disambiguation or distinction links by name or what league they played in, and a couple of defunct templates with distinction references from when the club was founded to when they were defunct. As for the clubs that I just listed. Of course we have all the past clubs from the old days linked under the template but none of them have anything to do with the current history. For example Seattle Sounders FC (the current team that began play in 2009), you see links from the past clubs from the old NASL days in the 1970s or so. Links to the USL team from 94-2008, and the Championships that those teams they won. However, they shouldn't be listed under the template because regardless of the fact that they all have the same name, they're all separate franchises and do not apply to the current Sounders franchise. That goes for all the achievements those teams accomplished. I started a discussion on WT:FOOTY and have asked this user to join the discussion, but he's refusing to do so. As far I can tell, I think WikiKid is relying on his own research and ignoring past consensus that WP:FOOTY agreed upon and I think the templates should be fixed because everything was correct prior to all these edits being made. – Michael ( talk) 00:46, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
Hi everyone. Here to address Mikemor92 (Michael)'s concerns, and misleading information. There is a discussion here about the NASL template where three people, including myself, are in favor of the content. Mike is a bit misinformed as he says that there was no NASL organization in 2010. That is completely false, and clearly WP:OR. The present day North American Soccer League was formed in 2009. Their league was recognized as such. They were simply not granted a division status, which is a separate issue altogether. The USL First Division, a league within the United Soccer Leagues, lost its division 2 status. Both the NASL and the USL 1st D agreed under the United States Soccer Federation to participate in the USSF Division 2 Pro League (a temporary one year division 2 league). All the teams under contract from the respective leagues played in the USSF D 2 PL, representing each league. The leagues themselves were much a part of the USSF D2 Pro League as they helped to organize its structure. Therefore, the 2010 season was placed in the template to indicate its historical connection to the NASL. Furthermore, Michael takes a statement of mine completely out of context. Yes, I said that the 2010 and 2011 years were different, only after explaining why in full detail. They are different in that the NASL did not have division status, and the following year it was granted division 2. However, the league was still fully operational, much involved in the USSF D2 PL. Regarding the legacy teams: The New York Cosmos, San Jose Earthquakes, Vancouver Whitecaps, Seattle Sounders, Portland Timbers, Fort Lauderdale Strikers, and Tampa Bay Rowdies; along with recent continous clubs such as the Montreal Impact and Ottawa Fury; Michael brings up an opinion referencing franchises and separate teams. Again, Michael, you may be confusing club and team or club and franchise. It is not the same thing. The new templates I have fully updated are about the history of the entire clubs. I ask that all admins reading, that are not currently talking here, to review the work I have done and analyze what has been placed (look at the history logs of each). All information is about the history of the clubs which carry the legacy of all their years of existence. Further, no contrary consensus above has been reached. And I again ask that admins to come in and evaluate the work that some have been persistently reverting and preventing improvement on the site. Thank you. NYCWikiKid ( talk) 07:01, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
There have been some recent article changes made on the stated basis of WP:NOR, so I'm bringing them all here to centralize the discussion. These changes are chart removals, almost exclusively by a particular editor. Unfortunately, the editor in question has edit-warred to keep their removals in and has been rather uncooperative. Rather than focus on their misbehavior, I'd like to get the underlying issue resolved.
A number of articles include charts showing actors who appear in multiple productions by the same director. These are typically sourced from two directions. The fact that there is a pattern of recurring actor use is sourced to a news article that mentions this fact, preventing us from undue synthesis. The actors and their appearances are partially sourced to these articles, and partially to IMDB. According to WP:CALC, it is not original research to do simple calculations, such as counting. Many of these charts have been around for some time now, without controversy. As I see it, these charts add value to these articles and do not have any potential for harm.
Decide for yourself. Here are links to live versions of the charts:
I'd like to establish a consensus on what it takes to protect these charts from spurious deletion, preserving the quality of these articles. MilesMoney ( talk) 05:11, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
The judgement that "three" is the significant milestone and constitutes frequent casting, and is what was meant by the source you're quoting, does seem to me a personal judgement. Hchc2009 ( talk) 06:55, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
It looks like the relevant criteria for lists have already been compiled at WP:LSC, so this issue is closed. MilesMoney ( talk) 18:02, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia has at least two excellent examples of the proper way to list frequent collaborators. Take a look at the Feature Article " List of frequent David Lynch collaborators" which has lots of references discussing how Lynch prefers working with a limited group of personnel. There's also the Paul Thomas Anderson#Frequent collaborators section which starts out with an ideal reference—"Anderson himself has created a sort of loose family of collaborators, with many of his actors and crew carrying over from one film to the next." [18] Perfect!
On the other hand, we have the completely unreferenced List of frequent Coen Brothers collaborators and the List of recurring cast members in Stanley Kubrick movies. A poorly referenced example is List of frequent Tim Burton collaborators—all of the references cite individual film appearances. None of the references actually makes the statement that Burton frequently works with the same people. (Also note the unreferenced Tim Burton#Frequent collaborators section.) At Martin Scorsese#Frequent collaborators, the references are slightly better, including some that make the statement that Scorsese likes to work with De Niro, for instance, or he likes to work with DiCaprio. None of the sources makes the overall observation that Scorsese repeatedly works with a limited number of collaborators. More unreferenced tables or lists: Michael Bay#Frequent collaborators, Alfred Hitchcock#Frequent collaborators, Shankar–Ehsaan–Loy#Frequent collaborators, James Wong Howe#Frequent collaborators, Haskell Wexler#Frequent collaborators, Salah Abu Seif#Frequent collaborators, Andrew Davis (director)#Frequent collaborators, Jonathan Chik#Frequent collaborators, Carlos Hernández Vázquez#Frequent collaborators, Richard Isanove#Frequent collaborators, and Tarek El-Telmissany#Frequent collaborators. I would bet that the articles about the lesser known directors have had the "Frequent collaborators" format copied to a degree from the famous directors. We should determine how much of a NOR problem we have with this sort of table, chart or list. Binksternet ( talk) 06:06, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
So, smart NORN watchers, here's a question: On Sangram Singh, another editor attempted to create a "controversy" section, by combining together info from the person's personal facebook page (where he claimed to have won certain awards), along with official stats from the tournament hosts which did not show Singh winning, to imply a controversy. Now, it's certainly clear to me that calling this discrepancy a "controversy" is pure OR, and we'd need a third party source to actually make that claim.
However, can we even put the two facts simultaneously on his page? That is, can we say in one sentence, "Singh stated that he won award X in year Y.(source to Facebook) However, the official record for the tournament does not list him as a winner." On the one hand, both seem to be relevant biographical facts, and the discrepancy even seems to be relevant, but on the other hand, putting them together like that would seem to violate WP:SYNTH, since it pretty much implies that the subject is lying (or misremembering, or whatever). If we can't line up both facts, how do we decide which of the two to list on the page? Qwyrxian ( talk) 22:10, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
Hi, I have listed a policy proposal pertaining to dealing with_Lack_of_references_and_citations_through_Edit_filters at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy).Please do join in to give your valued openions.
Mahitgar ( talk) 16:38, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
Is this family tree here consider synthesis anymore than Stephen_I_of_Hungary#Family?-- KAVEBEAR ( talk) 01:11, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
I just stumbled across this and am baffled about how it complies with
WP:NOR. But it seems to have been stable, across a lot of articles, for a few years and I'm just not
WP:BOLD enough to do what I think needs doing. Can I hear the thoughts of other editors?
Here's the explanation.
And here are examples:
Luke_P._Blackburn#Ancestors
Thomas_E._Bramlette#Ancestors
Simon_Bolivar_Buckner#Ancestors
Martha_Layne_Collins#Ancestors
Ernie_Fletcher#Ancestors
J._Proctor_Knott#Ancestors
Preston_Leslie#Ancestors
James_B._McCreary#Ancestors
John_W._Stevenson#Ancestors
Is there something I'm missing that makes these geneologies, which offer no references to secondary sources, approriate to appear on wikipedia pages about Kentucky governors? David in DC ( talk) 23:29, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
Hej!
I am looking for help/guidance from experienced scientific editors who can help resolve/guide me on the "No Original Research" requirement -v- the related policy of Neutral point of view. For ex, the NPOV seems to imply some "latitude"
My only question for the present is: Is this better posted here or on the Editor_assistance/Requests? Thank you for your help! 213.66.81.80 ( talk) 13:58, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
Hello Doug! Thank you for your response. My point is when I read WP:OR, I found this under the NPOV section there:
What is meant by the words in bold? (I can get to specifics in due course, but I would prefer someone who has experience of writing scientific articles in the context of known heuristics for a phenomenon -v- a "requirement" on Wikipedia to thereby elucidate the "cause"...)
Kind regrds 213.66.81.80 ( talk) 15:20, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
Yes it is but nothing to do with patent law. I am struggling with "need" to provide a "scientific" explanation to the "nth" degree so as to prevent any further defamatory comments arising. This is why I ask for guidance from someone who has expertise in writing scientific articles and is well grounded in (observational) science heuristics. The issues are nuanced and will require a careful consideration because I can do what is being "demanded" (by a user who I suspect has little experience in heuristics) but I am worried in so doing it will contravene the Original Research aspect. I need guidance. If you can help, I would surely appreciate it. Kind regards 213.66.81.80 ( talk) 18:09, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
Interesting!
"...it is important that editors provide context for this point of view, by indicating how prevalent the position is, and whether it is held by a majority or minority..."
Presumably, one must cite a source for a position being prevalent or minority, or else it would be OR, and open to abuse by editors indicating "minority view" derogatorily to views that they disagree with! NZBiota ( talk) 22:01, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
In the article Police state User:Ghostofnemo added a list of "Features of police states". The list was at first completely uncited and only after an extended discussion at Talk:Police state#New section "Features of police states" did I manage to convince the editor that sources are actually needed for each and every feature on the list. The editor proceeded to add citations from opinion-pieces, political organisations and geographically specific studies to cite a list that makes general claims about all police states.
My view is that in order to have such a list, we will need at least a scholarly study of police states in general which defines the features of a police state. The main problem being that most of the features on the list is not exclusive to police states but can occur in most types of states, making it obvious that the list has been put together on what the particular editor views as being features of police states rather than based on real scholarship on the subject. Googling "Police state" and adding a citation as source for a general claim that a feature is a general characteristic of police states if a columnist just happens to call it a sign of a police state seems to be rather blatant WP:SYNTH violations. And there are certainly a lot of those kind of citations on the list (the mass of citations often being a sign of dubious content in my experience). -- Saddhiyama ( talk) 10:42, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
I question your definition of synthesis. Here's what the WP:SYN says: "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources. This would be a synthesis of published material to advance a new position, which is original research.[8] "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument in relation to the topic of the article. If a single source says "A" in one context, and "B" in another, without connecting them, and does not provide an argument of "therefore C", then "therefore C" cannot be used in any article." In the case of this section, there is no C. We have many sources discussing police states and noting why they are police states, and I am noting what these sources mention as features of police states. I'm not jumping to the conclusion that any particular state C is therefore a police state, or stating a conclusion C such as "all states are police states". Ghostofnemo ( talk) 00:10, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
Do you see a resolution to that discussion? Where? So it's ok to delete an entire section of reliably sourced material from articles, but disruptive to constructively contribute by trying to improve the article? I would think the person who was doing the mass deletion would be the one who needed a warning. Ghostofnemo ( talk) 07:35, 12 November 2013 (UTC) Someone who was sincerely concerned about the quality of the sources would find better ones, one would think, instead of deleting the entire section. Ghostofnemo ( talk) 07:38, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
fair elections?consensus has been reached on this page to delete this entire section and all the provided reliable sources from the article. Here is the diff of the deletion: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Police_state&diff=582390708&oldid=580697927 Does such a consensus exist? Ghostofnemo ( talk) 01:05, 21 November 2013 (UTC) BTW, when an editor is asked to provide a reliable source for an edit, is it a bad thing to supply the requested sources? You seem to be implying this. Ghostofnemo ( talk) 01:08, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
Here is the latest attempt at resolution, which has already been deleted. Note how the edit is a direct paraphrase of the supplied reliable source: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Police_state&diff=582794914&oldid=582788773 Ghostofnemo ( talk) 11:49, 22 November 2013 (UTC) This is the reliable source the edit is based on: http://www.freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world-2013/checklist-questions-and-guidelines Ghostofnemo ( talk) 11:51, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
OK, so let's say you are quoting a reliable source that says "Mr. X has been accused in the press of cheating on his wife." Is it original research to paraphrase that by saying, "Some news media have made allegations that Mr. X has been unfaithful to his spouse"? Police state=unfree state, just as press=news media, cheat=unfaithful, accusation=allegation, wife=spouse (in this context). Ghostofnemo ( talk) 00:40, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
I see your main user page is on the Danish Wikipedia. Are you a native speaker of English? That might explain why you seem to be confused about political terminology in English. Do you have any background in politics, government or law? Ghostofnemo ( talk) 13:19, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
Can a single editor close a discussion because he or she personally feels it's not constructive? And don't my questions deserve answers? Are they entirely immaterial to this discussion? Ghostofnemo ( talk) 12:52, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
I would like the help of 3rd party editors to resolve an emerging issue with "attributable content" regarding the following and similar examples. The struck through text is the stable article text which I believe is attributable content of the vanilla "Paris is the capital of France" variety, and if disputed a
citation needed tag and a little bit of effort from any editor questioning it is less disruptive than simple deleting.
Brugge/ Bruges
(English still uses French name, though in Dutch-speaking area)
The reason why this is in my view falls into WP:OR "Paris is the capital of France" level general knowledge is because it is "flemish+speaking"&hl= easily attributable without having to WP:POINTedly fill the page with standard Tourist Guide footnotes.
The particular case is here where User:Dohn joe is arguing that statements are WP:OR at the same time as deleting sources such as (1) Lonely Planet Turkey (2) Jordan, Adamič, and Woodman Exonyms and the International Standardisation of Geographical Names: Approaches towards the Resolution of an Apparent Contradiction Vienna 2007 and (3) Jean-Pierre Duteil Alexandre de Rhodes' Histoire du royaume du Tonkin 1999 which supported 3 of the statements the editor has deleted claiming "WP:OR." Since this series of deletions has been justified with WP:OR I defer to experienced editors in this subject (hopefully those who contributed to the current shape of the guideline) to comment. I do not intend to contribute to the discussion. I also do not intend to be frogmarched to adding sources for "English still uses French name, though in Dutch-speaking area" statements known to every schoolboy. Footnote refs should be reserved for less clear statements such as to which the (3) deleted sources above were attached. In ictu oculi ( talk) 05:59, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, as I said: "I do not intend to contribute to the discussion." I would suggest to other editors that the whole edit and justification of the edit by WP:OR be considered in relation to (a) the whole edit, (b) the whole guideline. Good luck. In ictu oculi ( talk) 06:20, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
I have reverted, for
the 3rd time, Dohn joe's removal of stable article content (more lines of the Brugge/
Bruges (English still uses French name, though in Dutch-speaking area) etc. type and sources). The issue having been brought to
Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard the User should at least give regulars here a chance to comment before deleting stable and uncontroversial content a 4th time.
In ictu oculi (
talk)
03:48, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
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