For centuries the British army was officered by gentlemen, drawn from the upper classes. The requirements of the First World War led to a more than ten-fold expansion in the officer corps and, with insufficient men of the traditional officer class available, the positions were filled with those drawn from the middle and working classes. Such men were given temporary rank only and it came to be considered that they held the status of a gentleman only while they held the King's commission; they were expected to return to their former stations after the war which led to a number of social issues. The article also covers temporary gentlemen commissioned into the British Army during the Second World War and
National Service, and those who held similar positions in the Portuguese conscript army of the 1960s and 1970s.
Not alone, because what users are able to see is variable - for example that link doesn't lead to any page for me. You could use a section name if there is one; if there is absolutely no indicator of a page number or other way of identifying location within the source, you could include a quote as a last resort.
Nikkimaria (
talk)
01:27, 23 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Thanks, I've added the chapter title (all citations are to the first page of that chapter). I've heard that books.google.co.uk links don't work for everyone. Should I convert them to books.google.com? -
Dumelow (
talk)
12:16, 23 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Be consistent in whether you abbreviate page ranges
FN68: given work title is the article title, given publisher is the work title. Why cite this to a book review? Ditto FN109
I've got rid of FN68. I don't have a copy of Allport to hand but will have by the end of this week and will convert FN109 into book footnotes -
Dumelow (
talk)
10:37, 22 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Oops, thanks for clarifying. I've converted it to a tempalte:citation format and included author, date etc. Hopefully I've not forgotten anything? -
Dumelow (
talk)
12:21, 23 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Partly, but now you've got inconsistencies between those and the source-specific templates like ODNB. The other piece is what information is included: for example in FN108 you've got an author affiliation, which doesn't appear in Bibliography entries.
Nikkimaria (
talk)
01:27, 23 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Thankyou. I think I've fixed the ODNB by switching it to template:citation. Are the Gazette references OK as they are or should I convert them also? FN108 should be fixed once I have the book and convert it into a standard biblio ref -
Dumelow (
talk)
12:24, 23 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Be consistent in whether you include locations for books
When I was studying I was told not to use locations for obvious publishers (Cambridge University Press etc.) but I have no real objection either way. I've added them to all for consistency -
Dumelow (
talk)
08:05, 22 February 2021 (UTC)reply
You cite several theses - how do these meet
WP:SCHOLARSHIP?
PhD theses are usually reliable per
WP:SCHOLARSHIP: "Completed dissertations or theses written as part of the requirements for a doctorate, and which are publicly available (most via interlibrary loan or from Proquest), can be used but care should be exercised..." (
t ·
c) buidhe14:08, 21 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Tony Gould is identified in the text as a historian - what is his background in history?
The prices in the background section are interesting but something to compare it to would be nice. I'm wary of the inflation template but it gives some idea, or perhaps a soldier's pay? Just something that gives a little context.
Agreed. I've converted all values into modern equivalents in footnotes and added some background on pay levels in the different classes and the pay of private soldiers (the basic rate of which remained the same between the 18th century and 1915, though efficiency and re-enlistment supplements were introduced in the later period) -
Dumelow (
talk)
10:39, 27 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Weren't/aren't OTCs a university thing rather than a school one?
However Macmillan came from a family of good social standing I'm sure you'll have seen "however" seized upon at FAC in the past. It is over-used on Wikipedia and I'm not sure this adds anything. Check for others.
I'm a bit out of touch with recent FACs but I agree, particularly where I'd used however at the start of sentences. I've been through and addressed this -
Dumelow (
talk)
13:33, 25 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Temporary gentlemen were demobilised relatively quickly at the war's end Relative to what?
this was rare happening only on 1,109 occasions Missing some punctuation there I think. Also, out of how many? A percentage might be helpful here.
Reworded. Percentages would be problematic as there is uncertainty on the number of temporary commissions granted (I've added a footnote on this), but I've added a comparison to the number commissioned by the traditional military college route during the war -
Dumelow (
talk)
08:30, 28 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Hugh Pollard wrote in February 1919 Tell the reader who Pollard is and what his expertise is in the matter
Many temporary officers found their financial situation worsened by demobilisation Is it worth mentioning the wider context of tense industrial relations and economic recession that followed the war?
Yes, good call. The sources are clear that the civilian wages were lower than the army's even in 1919, but I've added a bit later on about the effects of the 1920-21 recession -
Dumelow (
talk)
09:15, 28 February 2021 (UTC)reply
were often barred from making use of the labour exchanges Why?
former public school boys and the sons of serving officers; with only 5% of the intake from the other ranks that seems an odd place for a semicolon, also
MOS:% would have that written as "per cent" or "percent", not "%".
Thanks for your review
Harry, some really good points and the article is much improved for them. I think I've addressed everything above now, but would welcome a review of my changes -
Dumelow (
talk)
09:15, 28 February 2021 (UTC)reply
This nomination has been open for four weeks and has attracted only the one support. Unless there is a little more interest over the next few days, it is liable to be archived.
Gog the Mild (
talk)
15:33, 22 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Thanks for the support
Eddie891. Good point on the %, per
wp:percent it seems these should all be written out (though personally I prefer the symbol), I've changed all instances to "per cent" -
Dumelow (
talk)
12:17, 25 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Comments from AustralianRupert
Support: I've been impersonating an officer for most of my military career (having been commissioned from the ranks), so I guess I felt the need to take a look at this one. Overall this looks pretty good to me. I have a few minor comments/observations:
AustralianRupert (
talk)
11:59, 26 March 2021 (UTC)reply
the article is well referenced and well written in my opinion (no action required)
the following terms are overlinked according to the dup link checker: Territorial Force, Household Brigade, Royal Irish Constabulary, Edwardian era, Richard Adlington,
"Many temporary officers, even those with no secondary education, expected to retain their position as gentlemen after the war": purely non actionable in this review, however, interestingly enough - or not depending upon one's perspective -- this situation is enduring, even in modern Australia. After commissioning, I found that my daughter's school fees were raised simply because I was now a "commissioned officer" rather than an NCO
"File:David Nelson VC.jpg": not sure about the date on the image description page -- seems unlikely that the image was created in 2012; suggest c. 1914-1918 or something similar
He's wearing captains insignia. He was still a lieutenant in 1916 and promoted major in March 1918 so I've put 1916-18 -
Dumelow (
talk)
13:31, 26 March 2021 (UTC)reply
"File:Men of the 20th Officer Cadet Battalion, 1917.jpg": same as above, the date on the image description page doesn't seem correct. Suggest "December 1917"
(non actionable and more of an aside) -- suspect that there is an aspect of this that remains; even within the Australian Army there remains a gap between those commissioned from the ranks and those directly recruited as officers, even though all go through exactly the same training. It isn't a particularly large gap to bridge, but the term "ORTs" (other rank tendencies), to be added pejoratively to a performance appraisal on a whim, remains the weapon of the CO who doesn't like how close the new subbie is to his subordinates.
the article seems quite heavily focused on the army; but were there not temporary gentlemen in the Navy and RAF?
Good point, there were temporary officers in the RN and RAF also. There seems to be less written about them, probably because numbers were much fewer, but I've added a couple of paragraphs (which I've split out, with the existing British Indian Army paragraph, into an "Other branches" section -
Dumelow (
talk)
16:53, 26 March 2021 (UTC)reply
"psychic reassurance of a khaki tunic on their back and a Webley .455 at their hip" -- again not actionable, but there was a time when a light hip caused me distress, too. Most returning soldiers will experience this at some time, usually for a short period after returning home...
"and in 2019 49 per cent": is there a way to avoid two sets of numbers appearing after each other?
the bit about batmen is interesting, I once got marked down on a PAR for insisting on cleaning my own weapon rather than having a soldier do it for me after an activity...apparently I lacked "teamwork". Anyway, I seem to recall an anecdote about one of the first Allied officers killed during D-day (Brotheridge, I think) cleaning his own boots while his batman lay on his bed. I don't have my copy of Pegasus Bridge at the moment as I am away from home, but will see if my wife can dig it out and send it to me to pass on. Might be useful, or it might not. Regards,
AustralianRupert (
talk)
13:09, 26 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Yes, I think I remember reading that (my copy of Pegasus Bridge is at my parents house, I think).
Our article says he was a temporary gentleman commissioned from the ranks. The Ox and Bucks were quite a 'smart' regiment so I'm not surprised to read that he "did not initially enjoy an easy relationship with his fellow platoon leaders who all came from a different social background to himself", though its uncited -
Dumelow (
talk)
17:15, 26 March 2021 (UTC)reply
G'day, J sent me the following excerpts from my 2003 Pocket Books edition (ISBN 0-7434-5068-X); my email got through to her just after she got the kids down, so she had some free time. Up to you if you wish to use this or not :
AustralianRupert (
talk)
03:22, 27 March 2021 (UTC)reply
p. 27: mentions Brotheridge was the oldest platoon commander in D Coy at 26; he had been a corporal before and attended OCTU on Howard's recommendations; his fellow platoon commanders were initially unsure of him as he "wasn't one of them"; he didn't play their games (rugby or cricket) but they warmed to him because of his athleticism
p. 35: mentions that Brotheridge had no sense of being ill at ease amongst the soldiers because of his background; he played the same sport as them (soccer/football); would chat to his batman Billy Gray in his barracks. Brotheridge would polish his own boots while his batman would chat about sport. Wally Parr recounts the strange sight of a British LT polishing his own boots while his batman is "gassing on about Manchester United and West Ham"
pp. 101 & 109: Brotheridge is mortally wounded during the assault, after throwing a grenade at a German machine gun post; dies of his wounds
Your recent changes look good to me, so I have added my support. Purely optional if you choose to use the info above about Brotheridge. Thanks for your work on this article. Regards,
AustralianRupert (
talk)
03:22, 27 March 2021 (UTC)reply
For centuries the British army was officered by gentlemen, drawn from the upper classes. The requirements of the First World War led to a more than ten-fold expansion in the officer corps and, with insufficient men of the traditional officer class available, the positions were filled with those drawn from the middle and working classes. Such men were given temporary rank only and it came to be considered that they held the status of a gentleman only while they held the King's commission; they were expected to return to their former stations after the war which led to a number of social issues. The article also covers temporary gentlemen commissioned into the British Army during the Second World War and
National Service, and those who held similar positions in the Portuguese conscript army of the 1960s and 1970s.
Not alone, because what users are able to see is variable - for example that link doesn't lead to any page for me. You could use a section name if there is one; if there is absolutely no indicator of a page number or other way of identifying location within the source, you could include a quote as a last resort.
Nikkimaria (
talk)
01:27, 23 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Thanks, I've added the chapter title (all citations are to the first page of that chapter). I've heard that books.google.co.uk links don't work for everyone. Should I convert them to books.google.com? -
Dumelow (
talk)
12:16, 23 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Be consistent in whether you abbreviate page ranges
FN68: given work title is the article title, given publisher is the work title. Why cite this to a book review? Ditto FN109
I've got rid of FN68. I don't have a copy of Allport to hand but will have by the end of this week and will convert FN109 into book footnotes -
Dumelow (
talk)
10:37, 22 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Oops, thanks for clarifying. I've converted it to a tempalte:citation format and included author, date etc. Hopefully I've not forgotten anything? -
Dumelow (
talk)
12:21, 23 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Partly, but now you've got inconsistencies between those and the source-specific templates like ODNB. The other piece is what information is included: for example in FN108 you've got an author affiliation, which doesn't appear in Bibliography entries.
Nikkimaria (
talk)
01:27, 23 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Thankyou. I think I've fixed the ODNB by switching it to template:citation. Are the Gazette references OK as they are or should I convert them also? FN108 should be fixed once I have the book and convert it into a standard biblio ref -
Dumelow (
talk)
12:24, 23 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Be consistent in whether you include locations for books
When I was studying I was told not to use locations for obvious publishers (Cambridge University Press etc.) but I have no real objection either way. I've added them to all for consistency -
Dumelow (
talk)
08:05, 22 February 2021 (UTC)reply
You cite several theses - how do these meet
WP:SCHOLARSHIP?
PhD theses are usually reliable per
WP:SCHOLARSHIP: "Completed dissertations or theses written as part of the requirements for a doctorate, and which are publicly available (most via interlibrary loan or from Proquest), can be used but care should be exercised..." (
t ·
c) buidhe14:08, 21 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Tony Gould is identified in the text as a historian - what is his background in history?
The prices in the background section are interesting but something to compare it to would be nice. I'm wary of the inflation template but it gives some idea, or perhaps a soldier's pay? Just something that gives a little context.
Agreed. I've converted all values into modern equivalents in footnotes and added some background on pay levels in the different classes and the pay of private soldiers (the basic rate of which remained the same between the 18th century and 1915, though efficiency and re-enlistment supplements were introduced in the later period) -
Dumelow (
talk)
10:39, 27 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Weren't/aren't OTCs a university thing rather than a school one?
However Macmillan came from a family of good social standing I'm sure you'll have seen "however" seized upon at FAC in the past. It is over-used on Wikipedia and I'm not sure this adds anything. Check for others.
I'm a bit out of touch with recent FACs but I agree, particularly where I'd used however at the start of sentences. I've been through and addressed this -
Dumelow (
talk)
13:33, 25 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Temporary gentlemen were demobilised relatively quickly at the war's end Relative to what?
this was rare happening only on 1,109 occasions Missing some punctuation there I think. Also, out of how many? A percentage might be helpful here.
Reworded. Percentages would be problematic as there is uncertainty on the number of temporary commissions granted (I've added a footnote on this), but I've added a comparison to the number commissioned by the traditional military college route during the war -
Dumelow (
talk)
08:30, 28 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Hugh Pollard wrote in February 1919 Tell the reader who Pollard is and what his expertise is in the matter
Many temporary officers found their financial situation worsened by demobilisation Is it worth mentioning the wider context of tense industrial relations and economic recession that followed the war?
Yes, good call. The sources are clear that the civilian wages were lower than the army's even in 1919, but I've added a bit later on about the effects of the 1920-21 recession -
Dumelow (
talk)
09:15, 28 February 2021 (UTC)reply
were often barred from making use of the labour exchanges Why?
former public school boys and the sons of serving officers; with only 5% of the intake from the other ranks that seems an odd place for a semicolon, also
MOS:% would have that written as "per cent" or "percent", not "%".
Thanks for your review
Harry, some really good points and the article is much improved for them. I think I've addressed everything above now, but would welcome a review of my changes -
Dumelow (
talk)
09:15, 28 February 2021 (UTC)reply
This nomination has been open for four weeks and has attracted only the one support. Unless there is a little more interest over the next few days, it is liable to be archived.
Gog the Mild (
talk)
15:33, 22 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Thanks for the support
Eddie891. Good point on the %, per
wp:percent it seems these should all be written out (though personally I prefer the symbol), I've changed all instances to "per cent" -
Dumelow (
talk)
12:17, 25 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Comments from AustralianRupert
Support: I've been impersonating an officer for most of my military career (having been commissioned from the ranks), so I guess I felt the need to take a look at this one. Overall this looks pretty good to me. I have a few minor comments/observations:
AustralianRupert (
talk)
11:59, 26 March 2021 (UTC)reply
the article is well referenced and well written in my opinion (no action required)
the following terms are overlinked according to the dup link checker: Territorial Force, Household Brigade, Royal Irish Constabulary, Edwardian era, Richard Adlington,
"Many temporary officers, even those with no secondary education, expected to retain their position as gentlemen after the war": purely non actionable in this review, however, interestingly enough - or not depending upon one's perspective -- this situation is enduring, even in modern Australia. After commissioning, I found that my daughter's school fees were raised simply because I was now a "commissioned officer" rather than an NCO
"File:David Nelson VC.jpg": not sure about the date on the image description page -- seems unlikely that the image was created in 2012; suggest c. 1914-1918 or something similar
He's wearing captains insignia. He was still a lieutenant in 1916 and promoted major in March 1918 so I've put 1916-18 -
Dumelow (
talk)
13:31, 26 March 2021 (UTC)reply
"File:Men of the 20th Officer Cadet Battalion, 1917.jpg": same as above, the date on the image description page doesn't seem correct. Suggest "December 1917"
(non actionable and more of an aside) -- suspect that there is an aspect of this that remains; even within the Australian Army there remains a gap between those commissioned from the ranks and those directly recruited as officers, even though all go through exactly the same training. It isn't a particularly large gap to bridge, but the term "ORTs" (other rank tendencies), to be added pejoratively to a performance appraisal on a whim, remains the weapon of the CO who doesn't like how close the new subbie is to his subordinates.
the article seems quite heavily focused on the army; but were there not temporary gentlemen in the Navy and RAF?
Good point, there were temporary officers in the RN and RAF also. There seems to be less written about them, probably because numbers were much fewer, but I've added a couple of paragraphs (which I've split out, with the existing British Indian Army paragraph, into an "Other branches" section -
Dumelow (
talk)
16:53, 26 March 2021 (UTC)reply
"psychic reassurance of a khaki tunic on their back and a Webley .455 at their hip" -- again not actionable, but there was a time when a light hip caused me distress, too. Most returning soldiers will experience this at some time, usually for a short period after returning home...
"and in 2019 49 per cent": is there a way to avoid two sets of numbers appearing after each other?
the bit about batmen is interesting, I once got marked down on a PAR for insisting on cleaning my own weapon rather than having a soldier do it for me after an activity...apparently I lacked "teamwork". Anyway, I seem to recall an anecdote about one of the first Allied officers killed during D-day (Brotheridge, I think) cleaning his own boots while his batman lay on his bed. I don't have my copy of Pegasus Bridge at the moment as I am away from home, but will see if my wife can dig it out and send it to me to pass on. Might be useful, or it might not. Regards,
AustralianRupert (
talk)
13:09, 26 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Yes, I think I remember reading that (my copy of Pegasus Bridge is at my parents house, I think).
Our article says he was a temporary gentleman commissioned from the ranks. The Ox and Bucks were quite a 'smart' regiment so I'm not surprised to read that he "did not initially enjoy an easy relationship with his fellow platoon leaders who all came from a different social background to himself", though its uncited -
Dumelow (
talk)
17:15, 26 March 2021 (UTC)reply
G'day, J sent me the following excerpts from my 2003 Pocket Books edition (ISBN 0-7434-5068-X); my email got through to her just after she got the kids down, so she had some free time. Up to you if you wish to use this or not :
AustralianRupert (
talk)
03:22, 27 March 2021 (UTC)reply
p. 27: mentions Brotheridge was the oldest platoon commander in D Coy at 26; he had been a corporal before and attended OCTU on Howard's recommendations; his fellow platoon commanders were initially unsure of him as he "wasn't one of them"; he didn't play their games (rugby or cricket) but they warmed to him because of his athleticism
p. 35: mentions that Brotheridge had no sense of being ill at ease amongst the soldiers because of his background; he played the same sport as them (soccer/football); would chat to his batman Billy Gray in his barracks. Brotheridge would polish his own boots while his batman would chat about sport. Wally Parr recounts the strange sight of a British LT polishing his own boots while his batman is "gassing on about Manchester United and West Ham"
pp. 101 & 109: Brotheridge is mortally wounded during the assault, after throwing a grenade at a German machine gun post; dies of his wounds
Your recent changes look good to me, so I have added my support. Purely optional if you choose to use the info above about Brotheridge. Thanks for your work on this article. Regards,
AustralianRupert (
talk)
03:22, 27 March 2021 (UTC)reply