Overt-Kill ( talk| | history| logs| links| watch) ( XfD| restore)

Despite a consensus of 5 Keeps vs 2 Deletes, closing admin went against consensus. Closing admin feels that the keeps were "I like it", when maybe one could be read that way, the others speak to the sourcing. Ignored is the fact that the 2 deletes cited "no sources" before sourcing was added. I'm not one to canvass so I thought the piece would stand on its own merits. How can an !vote for delete for lack of sources be valid when there are sources any more than an alleged "keep it because I like it"? Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 14:08, 18 September 2014 (UTC) reply

• Comment: I stand by the closing rationale given. In addition, I copy from my talk page: "I had a look again at the AfD debate, the article, and the sources and [...] I stand by my decision [...]. Please note that AfD is not a vote (which is why we call opinions "!votes" and not "votes"...). The closing admin has to evaluate the opinions expressed in the light of policy. In the current case, only one of the keep !votes was policy based, the others just said "I know it" or "I like it" or something similar. The sources were trivial mentions (or even did not discuss the character at all) and none of them provided any out-of-universe notability." -- Randykitty ( talk) 14:23, 18 September 2014 (UTC) reply
• Comment unless you looked at a completely different article or someone deleted everything I added just prior to your decision, those sources were not "in universe". 2 involved the 2 different lawsuits over ownership/copyright, one involved an action figure, two spoke to the creation of the character at the behest of Stan Lee on a cable TV show and one mentioned the character's appearance on HBO and the ctor who provided the voice. I'm not doing this to upset your 90% close as delete rate, I honestly feel this one was a mistake.-- Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 14:30, 18 September 2014 (UTC) reply
• Without seeing the content it's difficult to tell, my leaning at this point would be towards delete, given the things like the bizarre keep suggesting that wikipedia policy shouldn't be a factor in keeping or deleting. A brief look for some of the sources mentioned didn't reveal much for me (though it wasn't extensive). Can this be temp restored?-- 86.2.216.5 ( talk) 18:44, 18 September 2014 (UTC) reply
  • Done. — Cryptic 19:25, 18 September 2014 (UTC) reply
    • Endorse of the sources added since the AFD began we have a passing mention in the washington times, a reference to comics where the character appears (primary, non-independent sources), reference to where the character was created (again primary, non-independent) and the ref to "African Americans and Popular Culture" which I don't have access to the page referenced, though given the material in the pages I can access I'd be surprised if there was a lot of depth to it. This seems to me that these new sources were unlikely to change the minds of those who already commented, since they still seem to fail to be non-trivial or 3rd party. -- 86.2.216.5 ( talk) 18:40, 19 September 2014 (UTC) reply
• Endorse The closer correctly summarized the appropriate weight given to the arguments presented. -- j⚛e decker ^talk 21:24, 18 September 2014 (UTC) reply
• Endorse the closer was entirely justified in giving little or no weight to arguments such as "I've heard of it", "this one is popularity and good" and a bizarre exhortation not to cite policies in comments. AfDs are not votes and the raw count of people on each side (which the OP has got wrong anyway) makes little difference. Hut 8.5 22:09, 18 September 2014 (UTC) reply
• Comment I read the first half of that policy one as sarcasm and he goes on to state that the sources are reliable. But you guys will do what you want, I just thought the closure was incorrect. Even if you throw out the ESA "popularity" one and ironically throw out mine (admittedly I was frustrated by the nominator, but his behavior is not the subject here) it still comes out to 3-3 which should be no consensus. I guess the message I'm taking from this is to canvass after improving an article to change people's minds. Thanks for clearing that up.-- Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 22:17, 18 September 2014 (UTC) reply

• That comment didn't strike me as sarcastic at all. It does seem that the editor thought that personal opinions should trump arguments based on policies, which isn't going to get very far in an AfD. And the comment doesn't go on to say the sources are reliable, it goes on to say that "I have seen various sources online although probably not as many as the nominator wants", which isn't the same thing at all. Your 3-3 count is including one of "this one is popularity and good" and "appears to have enough information to be notable" as a valid argument and again AfDs aren't closed on raw numbers, even after discarding invalid arguments. Hut 8.5 06:54, 19 September 2014 (UTC) reply

So two votes saying "No sources" before the article has sources carries more weight than that? Whatever dude.-- Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 07:25, 19 September 2014 (UTC) reply

• Weak endorse - not particularly strong arguments from either side and the admin did what he could. I suppose it could have been re-listed but the conspiratorial comment at the end was probably enough to discourage further and wider community input. At the end of the day, the "delete" contributions were weaker including some outright bizarre comments like the suggestion that "keep" opinions amounted to "constantly quoting Wikipedia acronyms" when, by that point, not a single WP acronym had been linked. St★lwart ¹¹¹ 08:04, 19 September 2014 (UTC) reply
• Endorse. The community expects that its notability guidelines get followed. There is always room for interpretation about how to apply those guidelines, and there is even room to create exceptions to them in individual cases. But because the community expects that guidelines generally be followed, administrators are not only entitled, but in my view required, to give less weight to contributions that are plainly at odds with the guidelines or give no reasons for creating exceptions to them. The closing admin acted in accordance with this principle here, and the outcome was accordingly correct. With bonus points for picking up the redirect option that no-one else identified. Just one thought -- and this is not intended as a criticism of the closing admin -- perhaps had the admin instead weighed in with a very strong and compelling delete !vote, another admin would have come along and closed it as delete. Then, in light of that concluding strong and compelling delete !vote, the chance of the AfD ending up here might have been a bit lower. Or maybe not. Just a thought. -- Mkativerata ( talk) 09:02, 19 September 2014 (UTC) reply
• Endorse AFD closers aren't just encouraged to weigh the given arguments, they're actually required to, and given the incredibly poor arguments on display from the Keep side, the closing admin really had no choice. They ran the gamut from very poor ("I've heard of this character") to bizarre and nonsensical (a comment that people's comments shouldn't be based on policy) to absolutely pants-on-head WTF bizarre and nonsensical ("Keep this one is popularity and good" -no, really, it says that). A dozen, a thousand, or a million more comments of equal quality would still not have carried the debate. Since the level of discourse hasn't exactly risen in this DRV ("Whatever dude."), there's really not a lot to discuss. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 18:32, 19 September 2014 (UTC) reply
• Endorse, not the best set of arguments ever presented in an AFD, but an admin has to work with what they get. None of the arguments were great but most of the Keep ones were especially feeble, so the close is reasonable to my eyes. Lankiveil ^{( speak to me)} 01:24, 21 September 2014 (UTC). reply
• Endorse close and yet restore an earlier sourced version. Ignoring the keep arguments, and closer's discretion aside, the article was sourced and appears to show suitable notability for a fictional element... IE: sourcing speaking toward the topic need not be solely about the topic. Schmidt, ^{Michael Q.} 05:28, 21 September 2014 (UTC) reply

Susan Lindauer ( talk| | history| logs| links| watch) ( XfD| restore)

Deleted based on arguments such as "fails notability as a person. Also smells of WP:promo for her book" and BLP1E for her trial. Her references span over 10 years from her trip to Iraq, her incarceration, to her antiwar activity, to her book. She has a full profile in the New York Times Magazine that runs 5 pages. There are four references to her in the current Google News which covers only the past 60 days. There is no BLP1E for her trial, there was no trial, at an administrative hearing she was found incompetent to stand trial. That people are using the article to push their point of view about her, should not be a reason to delete. Every current president has that problem with their article. She seems to have become a symbol for conspiracy theorists, and readers need a fact based biography of her. Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) ( talk) 14:05, 18 September 2014 (UTC) reply

• Endorse- DRV is not a venue to re-argue the AfD, which is all this nomination is doing. There is no indication that the closing admin has judged consensus wrongly. As it happens, I think the closer judged consensus correctly. Reyk _YO! 06:46, 19 September 2014 (UTC) reply

I cogently pointed out above that "fails notability as a person" is not correct at all. You can't have a 5 page profile in the New York Times Magazine and 10 years of coverage in Google News Archive and Google Scholar and contemporary hits in Google News and "fail notability". If "fails notability as a person" was consider as a valid reason for deletion, then the original AFD count was flawed. -- Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) ( talk) 21:10, 23 September 2014 (UTC) reply

All you're doing is re-arguing the AfD, which is not what this venue is for, and badgering everyone who said "endorse". The consensus at the AfD was to delete, and the closer judged it right. Reyk _YO! 23:36, 23 September 2014 (UTC) reply

"Deletion Review may be used: if there was a substantive procedural error(s) in the deletion discussion". This is not re-arguing or badgering, it is Wikipedia policy: 1) The count was flawed, "fails notability as a person" should not count, multiple reliable sources say she is notable. The actual policy reads: "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list." 2) BLP1E is also incorrect she meets all three criteria to be excluded from that policy. 3) The AFD was done stealthily with none of the contributors to the article notified. 4) The actual count, including bad arguments, was a tie, and should have defaulted to no consensus. Remember AFD is not a vote, the arguments have to be policy based and be a correct interpretation of policy. 5) SpringandFall voted twice, first to delete and then, after consideration, voted to keep without removing their initial vote. Someone struck SpringandFall's second keep !vote and kept SpringandFall's first delete !vote. The proper thing to do would have been to keep SpringandFall's second !vote, not their initial !vote. Or contact them to ask which is their final !vote, not to delete the one that goes against the way you !voted. -- Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) ( talk) 03:06, 24 September 2014 (UTC) reply

There were no substantive procedural errors though. Claiming that certain arguments "should not count" is just you being sour that you didn't get your way. The community reached a consensus that this person did not meet notability requirements, their opinions were well argued in terms of policy, and the closer accurately gauged consensus. That's all there is to it. Just because you think people ought to have had a different opinion does not mean the close should be overturned. Reyk _YO! 05:19, 24 September 2014 (UTC) reply

All I can do is again quote policy to counter your emotional argument about me being "sour": Wikipedia:Notability says: "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list." If someone argues the opposite and it is counted as valid, we have a procedural error. Her father owns a newspaper but he does not own the New York Times and the Washington Post, so they are independent reliable sources. Again, I am quoting actual policy whereas you are arguing that people's opinions are valid without explaining what makes those opinions valid. People expressing their opinions are voting, AFD is not a vote. For an opinion to be counted it must be backed up by actual policy. -- Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) ( talk) 14:37, 24 September 2014 (UTC) reply

• Overturn. This is a closer case than I'd expected, and ordinarily someone whose reported criminal conduct is attributed to mental illness shouldn't be singled out for an article here. But this subject was given extensive, high-visibility coverage, including repeated coverage by the New York Times including a full-length profile, and there appear to be a significant number of examples of coverage in sources turned up via GBooks (discounting conspiracy theory claptrap). I don't believe the closer properly measured the invocations of BLP1E and PERP against the actual policies (admittedly a more difficult task than usual here); they're a bad fit when there's no article on the purported crime/event, and the person has been so substantively covered in national media (not merely wire service pickups of local news). The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) ( talk) 18:26, 19 September 2014 (UTC) reply
• Overturn / Consider Relisting The AfD was a farce on both sides, with apparent sockpuppets supporting retention and brain-dead ignorance of dozens of reliable and verifiable sources combined with misinterpretation of BLP1E on the deletion side. A search of The New York Times ( see here) turns up more than a dozen sources about the subject that clearly demonstrate notability, including an extremely lengthy article about the subject in the Sunday Magazine, all of which was ignored and unmentioned by the closing administrator, let alone the hundreds of other available sources. Even ignoring her own book, which is hardly typical of someone seeking to remain under the radar, this Google Books search turns up more than a dozen mentions in other books. This is someone who clearly meets WP:N and the keeps, deletes and closing administrator all seemed to fail here in their own unique way. Alansohn ( talk) 19:13, 19 September 2014 (UTC) reply
• Endorse as closer. Thanks first to User:Mkativerata who took the trouble to notify me of this discussion when the original nominator did not.

I acknowledge that this was a difficult discussion to close (in fact, it was several days overdue, perhaps because other admins didn't want to touch it with the proverbial 20 foot pole), largely due to a number of SPAs gracing us with their presence. I found the rationale advanced by User:TheRedPenOfDoom and User:Tgeairn to be the most convincing offered. Filtering out keep arguments that were basically WP:ILIKEIT, WP:ITSNOTABLE and the like, there were also two editors that made a decent go of making a policy based argument. One seemed to argue that Lindauer was a high-profile individual and thus WP:BLP1E did not apply, but I found this unpersuasive and the argument did not appear to gain much traction with the other participants. Another suggested that while a biography might not be appropriate, an article on the event itself might pass muster. I have no opinion on that, but we were dealing with a biography, not an article on an event.

This DRV seems to be introducing new information to the case, but obviously I was not able to consider arguments that had not been made. The proper time to make them would have been when the article was at AFD. In any case, I don't see anything particularly compelling that would indicate that this is anything other than a case of WP:ONEEVENT or that the article should be undeleted. Lankiveil ^{( speak to me)} 10:25, 20 September 2014 (UTC). reply

Of course if anyone who worked on the original article had been notified they would had participated, but this was done as a stealth deletion. -- Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) ( talk) 05:30, 23 September 2014 (UTC) reply

• endorse the NYT "profile" is of a perp before her trial which is about her trip to Iraq about which her case was dismissed-BLP1E. her book is self published and primarily mentioned in other self published conspiracy theory propaganda -no significant coverage in reliable sources. there was no misreading of BLP1E by the closer, even with the "newly introduced " evidence. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:07, 20 September 2014 (UTC) reply

The search " 'Susan Lindauer' Extreme Prejudice" gives 705 results in GBooks and 56 in GScholar, that is a high impact for a self published book. None of the three criteria for BLP1E are met in this case. 1. She is still in the news over 10 years later, and the events consists of her trip, incarceration, and the continuing mentions in the news as an example of medicating a person against their will to make them competent to stand trial, and her continuing antiwar activity. 2. she is not a private person because she published an autobiography and she has over a dozen interviews at news outlets on YouTube. 3. A 5 page profile in the NY Times is about her, it contains full biographical information. This is not a person in the news for a DUI, or for shoplifting, or celebrity gossip, those are what BLP1E are meant to exclude. -- Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) ( talk) 04:32, 21 September 2014 (UTC) reply

9/11 conspiracy theorists are an extremely prolific bunch. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 02:48, 23 September 2014 (UTC) reply

If Google News and Google Scholar think the topic is notable, why is it that you do not? I think you are trying to get rid of the article not based on notability in multiple reliable sources, but because you do not like the fringe following of the topic. -- Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) ( talk) 05:30, 23 September 2014 (UTC) reply

• Thank the closer for his dealing with a SPA-ridden AFD and then Overturn and return article to mainspace. Coverage over a many-years period and for different aspects of her life, including her book, prevent this from being simply a BLPIE, and per WP:NRVE... [1] [2] [3] [4] [5], such wide significant coverage implies notability enough for these pages. Editors may like her politics or hate them, but such PPOV notwithstanding, we have coverage enough for inclusion herein. Issues with content or style would require regular editing, not deletion. Schmidt, ^{Michael Q.} 17:27, 21 September 2014 (UTC) reply
• Overturn as a violation of the principles of BLP. If there is sufficient press coverage, we cover the subject; the bar at BLP for what counts as significant for negative or potentially material is appropriately higher, especially for matters of mere gossip. This however, is a political case of substantial historical interest, and the coverage shows it. It is not the function of wikipedia to pretend the world is better than it is. Normally, the NYT is an appropriate standard, as they tend to be very conservative on this sort of coverage. OneEvent is not applicable to matters of public or political concern, but just to accidents, routine crimes, and the like. Political crimes are politics, not routine criminal matters. If the principles of BLP were not sufficiently considered during the AfD, then we can revisit the matter and take them into account. In any case, this was not a proper close, for the closer in the end closed a disputed situation in accordance with what seems to be his own opinion. Personal opinion is not the proper approach to BLP. DGG ( talk ) 00:42, 22 September 2014 (UTC) reply
• Overturn - Comically bad close - close explicitly discounts "keep" heads on the grounds of socking/meating, where it seems the "delete" camp is mostly socks/meats. If one discounts the heads, you're left with a person who's a) been biographically profiled in the New York Times, and b) Been the subject of continued press interest for several years. If one actually reads WP:ONEEVENT, it's pretty clear that it refers to people covered as context to an event, not people who become famous because of one event; admins shouldn't be closing discussions on the basis of policies they don't understand. (Better would be if people didn't try to invoke them in discussions when they don't understand them, but that may be dreaming too high). Wily D 11:33, 22 September 2014 (UTC) reply

  That's unfair. Who on the delete side are you accusing of being a sock- or meatpuppet? Every delete voter (except one person, who voted both delete and keep) has been here for over a year and made more than 500 edits. I know this because I checked, which is what you should have done before spewing out unfounded accusations. Reyk _YO! 05:27, 24 September 2014 (UTC) reply

• Endorse - DRV is not Round 2, no significant error found in the close. Standard "I disagree". Tarc ( talk) 14:01, 22 September 2014 (UTC) reply
  • Surely you can't be serious. DRV is not AfD round II, but nor is it "vote for a close you wanted based on statements known to be wrong". The only bit of reasoning explained in the close was that there was a lot of socking/meating on the "keep" side, when socking/meating was a problem for the "delete" side. Here, the closer characterising the keep position as "ILIKEIT", when the keep position is the inescapable "Meets WP:N"; while asserting it meets ONEEVENT, which is does not (at least one source is presented biographically - the New York Times), and over an extended period. Beyond which ONEEVENT also says that articles about notable events written as biographies where the event is notable should be turned into articles about the event, following the sources' lead, not deleted. Given that every element of the close has been shown to be in total error, why would you assert otherwise? Wily D 14:24, 22 September 2014 (UTC) reply

• Because the consensus of the editors at the AfD says otherwise? Tarc ( talk) 02:43, 23 September 2014 (UTC) reply

• Comment As Alansohn noted above, both sides in the AFD debate managed to entirely avoid discussing the most significant coverage of the subject, particularly the prominent feature in the New York Times. Failure to consider the most reiable sourcing clearly taints the outcome and justifies reversing the outcome. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) ( talk) 17:25, 24 September 2014 (UTC) reply

• Endorse - This discussion appears to be focusing on BLP1E, but the better measure is WP:PERP. I won't repeat my AfD statement here (as has been said, this isn't AfD part II), but we may need to look outside of BLP1E. -- Tgeairn ( talk) 02:32, 23 September 2014 (UTC) reply

Except WP:PERP says as a reason for having a biography: "The motivation for the crime or the execution of the crime is unusual—or has otherwise been considered noteworthy—such that it is a well-documented historic event. Generally, historic significance is indicated by sustained coverage of the event in reliable secondary sources which persists beyond contemporaneous news coverage and devotes significant attention to the individual's role." (emphasis mine) We have over 10 years of coverage including a five page biographical profile in the New York Times Magazine. The unusual aspects of the event are: prosecuting an American as a foreign lobbyist and the attempt at medicating an incompetent person to make them competent to stand trial. That is why there is still coverage in the past 60 days in Google News. People are ignoring or purposefully misinterpreting Wikipedia notability rules based on their personal dislike of the subject matter and the fringe element that it attracts. -- Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) ( talk) 05:40, 23 September 2014 (UTC) reply

because of america's wonderful healthcare and mental healthcare system, criminal trials with mentally incompetent defendants with narcissistic delusions of grandeur are not at all unusual. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 04:16, 24 September 2014 (UTC) reply

• Weak overturn I was asked to comment here and wrote the following e-mail: I do not have any particular interest or background in the topic, so I don't have much expertise on the finer points of nobility articles. I also can't see the deleted content as I'm not an admin. But sources establish notability and she seems to have it, so even on first glance, it seems like it could be undeleted. At the very least, it can be moved to draft or user namespaces... Deletion is pretty silly for something that has at least some borderline notability and sources. — Justin (koavf)❤ T☮ C☺ M☯ 02:26, 24 September 2014 (UTC) reply
  • Note it is a standard practice to temporarily undelete items at DRV, if someone could oblige? All the best: Rich  Farmbrough, 15:17, 24 September 2014 (UTC).
    
• Overturn This should have been a snow keep. Lindauer is certainly notable. All the best: Rich  Farmbrough, 15:17, 24 September 2014 (UTC).
  
• Comment on Notifications -- Not to sidetrack the discussion (although that really is what I'm doing) I'd like to ask the nominator, or someone else who may be able to explain, about the editors specifically notified to come to this discussion. The nominator seems to have asked 3 editors to come participate in this discussion in requests that can be seen on their talk pages. One, User:Nomoskedasticity, was an editor who !voted keep in the original discussion. Another User:KahnJohn27, was an editor who had agreed with the nominator in an unrelated argument at Talk:Robin Williams. The third is User talk:Rich Farmbrough, an editor whose particularly !voting habits or attitude on notability I don't know. Additionally, the nominator seems to have asked User:koavf to comment in this discussion via email -- obviously we don't know how that was worded, so I won't try to guess how he is related to this article. Of these 4 editors that were asked to contribute, 3 have participated so far, both !voting to overturn to keep. While I certainly will happily assume good faith and not jump to any assumptions about WP:Canvassing, an explanation for this would be quite helpful. Thanks!-- Yaksar (let's chat) 05:46, 25 September 2014 (UTC) reply

Canvassing is appropriate if limited and neutrally worded. Bringing in people who have edited the Wikipedia Noability rules is a perfect example of the people to notify. Notifying the one person who participated in the AFD but who has not already commented here is perfectly appropriate. -- Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) ( talk) 15:30, 25 September 2014 (UTC) reply

But that isn't what you did. User:1292simon, User:Two_kinds_of_pork (the nominator), User:BusterD, User:Rpclod, and User:Aerospeed are all non-SPA editors who also have not participated (and I would note that 4 out of these 5 !voted delete). Can you please provide an explanation?-- Yaksar (let's chat) 16:34, 25 September 2014 (UTC) reply

Note that User:Lankiveil was invited to come here. Also note the stealth deletion where none of the writers of the article were invited to participate in the the original AFD. All the other people, except two, on your list are redlinked editors. Part of the deletion rationale was about sockpuppets and meatpuppets, those are generally redlinked users who never bother to create a user profile. -- Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) ( talk) 17:21, 25 September 2014 (UTC) reply

Of the 5 users I listed, all 5 are active users with recent contributions, not SPAs. 2 of the 5 do not currently have userpages, but they are still active editors. Please explain your decision to claim accurately.-- Yaksar (let's chat) 18:13, 25 September 2014 (UTC) reply

So, what you're saying is that you didn't notify User:Rpclod because User:Two_kinds_of_pork does not have a user page. Interesting. Reyk _YO! 22:27, 25 September 2014 (UTC) reply

• Overturn -- the arguments should have been evaluated on their merits, and in this case there was an obvious misinterpretation of relevant policies. Nomoskedasticity ( talk) 09:24, 25 September 2014 (UTC) reply

As I already pointed out "if its red its dead". User:BusterD is on vacation according to his page.

• Endorse, both procedurally and substantively. On the former, I'm not going to !vote in favour of a DRV nomination in which targeted participation has been procured by the nominator both on-wiki and, it appears, off-wiki. Whether it was done in good or bad faith isn't material; the point is that it was done and it has affected the population of participants here. Second, the close is reasonable. Just to pick one example: the nominator places great emphasis on the fact that the subject has published a book. Except, so far as I can see, it has not been reviewed in any of the usual mainstream book review sources, and it appears that the book is self-published. This suggests to me that the claims to genuine lasting notability beyond the particular event in question (which is, for instance, the focus of the NYT article) are over-inflated. -- Mkativerata ( talk) 11:25, 25 September 2014 (UTC) reply

You are engaging in sophistry with the strawman argument. The book was mentioned not for reasons of notability. Notability was determined by the rule: "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list." If we have coverage in the Washington Post and The New York Times Magazine then she is notable. Her book was used as an example for the three requirements that exclude a person from BLP1E. If someone is a private person vs. a public person. She is a public person by publishing an autobiography and by giving interviews to ABC news and RT. Her autobiography has nothing to do with notability. -- Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) ( talk) 15:02, 25 September 2014 (UTC) reply

• Undelete and Relist DRV is not AFD #2 , but I do agree that BLP1E is not really applicable as an immediate reason to close as we have actual two events here: her trial, and her authorship. I make no claim here (per first statement) that she is notable or not otherwise, but I believe that BLP1E was not the right reason to close (there are both reasons I see to keep, and reasons I see to delete, beyond that). -- MASEM ( t) 17:00, 25 September 2014 (UTC) reply
• Endorse I think the closer correctly judged consensus during the AfD. I am not convinced by the arguments here that policy was not followed. Neither do I see significant additional coverage that was not yet available during the AfD. The accusation that this was a "stealth AfD" (?? was there no AfD notice on the article as required? Was it not delsorted correctly?) seems top be groundless. -- Randykitty ( talk) 17:11, 25 September 2014 (UTC) reply

"While not required, it is generally considered courteous to notify the good-faith creator and any main contributors of the articles that you are nominating for deletion" Yes, it is a stealth deletion if you do not notify the people who worked on the article. This would be the same strategy as printing a legal notice in a newspaper that I do not read to notify me that my bank owes me money. We all have userpages that send emails when someone writes there. BTW, your using the strawman fallacy too. I gave 5 strong reasons for overturning the deletion, and you chose to demolish the weakest one without addressing the other 4 stronger arguments. -- Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) ( talk) 17:36, 25 September 2014 (UTC) reply

I saw those other arguments and they don't convince me. I stand by my "endorse". You should also realize that your incessant badgering of anybody who disagrees with you does not really do your case any good. -- Randykitty ( talk) 17:52, 25 September 2014 (UTC) reply

You are confusing "incessant badgering" with cogent, policy-based counter-arguments. I am sorry you feel badgered by having the actual policy quoted. Remember this is not a !vote or an opinion poll. -- Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) ( talk) 18:07, 25 September 2014 (UTC) reply

• Comment I specifically made sure the TW box to notify the article creator was checked. I'm not sure what happened,but it appears something went wrong. There was no intent on my part to make this a "stealth" deletion. That I or anyone should be expected to notify even a significant portion of the contributors is ridiculous. There is a reason we have watchlists after all. Two kinds of pork ^Makin' _Bacon 20:34, 25 September 2014 (UTC) reply

Thank you very much for kindly explaining WP:NOTAVOTE to me, that's really helpful. I'll keep that in mind for next time. -- Randykitty ( talk) 18:58, 25 September 2014 (UTC) reply

• Relist as several commenters above have pointed out failures in notifying editors with an interest in the article, and thus feel they did not have the opportunity to comment on the AfD. While it appears that the closer interpreted the discussion correctly based on what's there, with the subsequent discussion here taken into account the consensus becomes much more murky. A number of the participants on this page didn't comment on the AfD, which leads me to believe that it should be reopened. Ivanvector ( talk) 21:32, 25 September 2014 (UTC) reply
• Relist with temporary undeletion. The closer's guess about the number of "sockpuppets" on each side is not particularly persuasive. The subject is notable for multiple events: claiming to have inside information about a 9/11 coverup, relaying an offer from Saddam Hussein to buy a million cars for ten years if war were not made on him, being press secretary for Zoe Lofgren, serving as a back channel for Iraq peace negotations, or at least trying. The last two are NYT and pretty solid, the first two might be a conspiracy theory floated out of one bad editorial decision by Veterans Today; that I can't tell you from one poke at the stack of paper. So it is possible that the deleted article is sloppy and deficient - can't say without reading it. But the clearest error is the idea that an ongoing set of notable activities by a subject is completely subsumed and overridden by an unproven accusation of criminality (the prosecution for her dealing with Iraq), or that it is all one "event" because the accusation was one event -- this is a bad, partisan mistake I just saw recently with (the completely unrelated story) of Daniele Watts at AfD. It's a way that people can take an allegation, use it as if it were true to try to get someone's article banned out of wikipedia, even while saying that because it is unproven it can't be included at all. That is a disease that must stop altogether, in any article. Wnt ( talk) 22:28, 25 September 2014 (UTC) reply
• Comment - Why is this not unhidden for the deletion review? This strikes me as a grave violation of DRV protocol. Make it invisible to web search if there's something that concerns, but there is no way to opine on the merit or defectiveness of the close without being able to see the article. DRV is not an administrators-only process. Carrite ( talk) 23:01, 25 September 2014 (UTC) reply