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Category:American male chess players
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Propose deleting and restoring status quo as at 12 November 2023.
Materialscientist appears to have made a unilateral decision without consensus to overturn a long term practice on articles about chess players. He appears to believe that chess tournaments are usually segregated by gender, however this is not the case. While over 90% of competitive chess players are male, the vast majority of tournaments are open to all players. Examples of women competing alongside men in high level tournaments can be found as far back as
1929 and probably earlier. There are a few women only tournaments, but no men only tournaments; this form of positive discrimination is generally accepted by chess players. Some women prefer all woman tournaments, but these are relatively rare outside of Europe. Equally some women prefer to play against all comers, even if they're not so keen on the unwanted attention from male players. The main point is men's and women's competition is not truly segregated, and the status quo was preferable. The root of the unilateral non-consensus based decision can be found in
this edit. If the decision stands, we have to go through thousands of articles about chess players just to add the intersection of gender and nationality, which seems like a total waste of time.
MaxBrowne2 (
talk)
20:52, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment: I think the argument can be summarized as "women's chess is a thing, men's chess is not". In fields where men and women don't compete directly with each other such as tennis, it's reasonable to have the categories "American male tennis players" and "American female tennis players". In fields where women have separate events but men don't, such as chess, it's reasonable to have a category "American female chess players" but not "American male chess players", same as there's a category for "British female Prime Ministers" but not "British male Prime Ministers". It gets especially ridiculous when historical figures such as
Paul Morphy get their category changed from "American chess players" to "American male chess players".
MaxBrowne2 (
talk)
09:54, 15 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Fictional planets by type
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Category:Musicals set on fictional moons
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Category:Blue Peter presenters
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Category:Top Gear people
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Category:Fictional spacecraft by work
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Category:Fictional spaceplanes
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Merge Per
WP:SMALLCAT. It would be great if there were more notable articles about fictional spaceplanes, but there simply aren't. Until that point comes (or probably doesn't), it should be merged.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ)
13:07, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
None of the articles in this category would ever realistically be called airplanes, and I don't think they'd even be called spaceplanes.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ)
15:00, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Fiction about brain-to-brain communication
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Delete This is not telepathy, but it seems too vague to be defining, so that's a whole other can of worms. Call me when numerous relevant examples are found, otherwise delete per
WP:NONDEF.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ)
12:44, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Truss family
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Nominator's rationale: A category for short-time British Prime Minister
Liz Truss, her father
John Truss and her husband
Hugh O'Leary, plus 2 redirects (imho very challengeable) linking back to the
Liz Truss article. I think that these articles would be better served by in-article links one to the other rather than a category (hint: they are already linked).
Place Clichy (
talk)
12:25, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Fictional doomsday scenarios
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Category:DC Comics weapons
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Nominator's rationale: At its face, this is a 3-article category in one that isn't especially large, and where the objects in the subcategories are mostly not weapons. –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄)
12:12, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge There were probably more things in the category when I made it, but either way removal of non-notable items has caused it to become untenable as a category for now.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ)
12:15, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Given names with negative perceived cultural associations
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Nominator's rationale: This recently created category seems to be entirely subjective and doesn't meet
WP:NPOV,
WP:DUE,
WP:RS or satisfy
WP:DEFINING. It has been added to articles without the article once mentioning any "negative perceived cultural association" (e.g.,
Brandon (given name)), where the perceived cultural association arises from the name being used as a villain in a film (e.g.,
Ursula (name)), or even where the name became
more popularafter being used as the name of a protagonist in a film (e.g.
Samara (given name)). Ultimately, though, pretty much every name could be in the category, because I can probably find you a villain, criminal, or "negative perceived cultural association" for every name - real world or fictional - except for newly-invented Tragedeigh names: James - James Bond, regarded as a sociopath and misogynist by many. John - Long John Silver, notorious pirate. Mary - Typhoid Mary. And so on...
BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!12:00, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep. The names included in the character are those with reliable references that list them as having “negative perceived cultural references” and some sources do indeed list them as a group. The association was negative enough that it was written about. It’s not a list of names that you or I personally dislike. I haven’t found any sources that list Mary as a name with perceived negative associations. I think it is notable but go to it if you disagree.
Bookworm857158367 (
talk)
12:21, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment. All the names included in the category are listed by reliable sources as having “perceived negative cultural associations” and some sources list multiple such names together. It’s notable enough that it’s the first thing many people think of when they hear the name — i.e. Adolf or, these days, Brandon or Karen, to the point that it’s been written about at great length. Multiple sources are not mentioning Mary or John as names with negative perceived cultural associations because they’re too widely used.
Bookworm857158367 (
talk)
12:36, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
The subjectivity/arbitrariness is: negative associations to who? Game of Thrones fans might dislike or like someone named Daenerys, while others don't care. How is that representative of the general culture? The same thing applies to someone named Anakin and Star Wars fans compared to the public at large. When all it means is "negative associations by someone" it becomes essentially meaningless. That's all I will say on the subject, as it represents my incontrovertible thoughts about it.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ)
12:50, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Seeing as you bring it up again, I'll ask again - what's the "negative association" with the name Brandon? There is nothing in the article mentioning any negative connotation?
BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!12:58, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Thank you. So... entirely subjective. It might be well known among Trump supporters, but that means it's well known, at best, among less than half of the American electorate. For the rest of the world, it's an uncommon forename and surname.
BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!16:17, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete as too subjective. Even if a source gives a list of such names, they will only reflect that source's subjectivity, as perceived connotations by definition can only be subjective. Where I live, Kevin and Jennifer are among the given names most associated with negative cultural stereotypes, but they're not on any of the lists used to build this category apparently. Hence the subjectivity.
Place Clichy (
talk)
12:48, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Have any reliable sources listed them as having negative cultural associations? They probably could be included, if so. It’s not a category for names I personally perceive as negative. It’s one where the association is noteworthy enough that it’s among the first things they mention about the name.
Bookworm857158367 (
talk)
12:56, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
There's plenty of reliable academic coverage on the phenomenon, but it is usually in French. You didn't get the part when I wrote that this appreciation is local and subjective.
Place Clichy (
talk)
17:21, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Fictional ghost ships
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Category:Fictional aircraft carriers
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Fictional naval ships
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Sports families by nationality
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The result of the discussion was:rename all as nominated. A couple of notes:
The general principle (which received unanimous support) is renaming "Sports families of XYZ" to "XYZ sports families".
Category:Sports families of India was not listed in the nomination, but given it was mentioned in this discussion, tagged with a pointer to this CfD, and would qualify for C2C, I am IARing and including it in this close.
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Category:G.I. Joe vehicles
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Category:Fictional ships by type
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Category:Fictional seaplanes
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Category:Transformers: Super-God Masterforce character redirects to lists
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Category:Fictional rings (jewellery)
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Nominator's rationale: Unnecessary subcategory with 2 subcategories, 3 articles, and 1 redirect; one subcategory is already in the target, as is one of the articles. –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄)
11:08, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge Per nom as unnecessary. If I was going to split the category, I would do it on the gemstones/jewelry line, not, arbitrarily, rings.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ)
11:31, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Fictional musical instruments
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Category:Fictional objects by type
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Category:American male chess players
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Propose deleting and restoring status quo as at 12 November 2023.
Materialscientist appears to have made a unilateral decision without consensus to overturn a long term practice on articles about chess players. He appears to believe that chess tournaments are usually segregated by gender, however this is not the case. While over 90% of competitive chess players are male, the vast majority of tournaments are open to all players. Examples of women competing alongside men in high level tournaments can be found as far back as
1929 and probably earlier. There are a few women only tournaments, but no men only tournaments; this form of positive discrimination is generally accepted by chess players. Some women prefer all woman tournaments, but these are relatively rare outside of Europe. Equally some women prefer to play against all comers, even if they're not so keen on the unwanted attention from male players. The main point is men's and women's competition is not truly segregated, and the status quo was preferable. The root of the unilateral non-consensus based decision can be found in
this edit. If the decision stands, we have to go through thousands of articles about chess players just to add the intersection of gender and nationality, which seems like a total waste of time.
MaxBrowne2 (
talk)
20:52, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment: I think the argument can be summarized as "women's chess is a thing, men's chess is not". In fields where men and women don't compete directly with each other such as tennis, it's reasonable to have the categories "American male tennis players" and "American female tennis players". In fields where women have separate events but men don't, such as chess, it's reasonable to have a category "American female chess players" but not "American male chess players", same as there's a category for "British female Prime Ministers" but not "British male Prime Ministers". It gets especially ridiculous when historical figures such as
Paul Morphy get their category changed from "American chess players" to "American male chess players".
MaxBrowne2 (
talk)
09:54, 15 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Fictional planets by type
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Category:Musicals set on fictional moons
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Category:Blue Peter presenters
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Category:Top Gear people
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Category:Fictional spacecraft by work
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Category:Fictional spaceplanes
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Merge Per
WP:SMALLCAT. It would be great if there were more notable articles about fictional spaceplanes, but there simply aren't. Until that point comes (or probably doesn't), it should be merged.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ)
13:07, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
None of the articles in this category would ever realistically be called airplanes, and I don't think they'd even be called spaceplanes.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ)
15:00, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Fiction about brain-to-brain communication
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Delete This is not telepathy, but it seems too vague to be defining, so that's a whole other can of worms. Call me when numerous relevant examples are found, otherwise delete per
WP:NONDEF.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ)
12:44, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Truss family
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Nominator's rationale: A category for short-time British Prime Minister
Liz Truss, her father
John Truss and her husband
Hugh O'Leary, plus 2 redirects (imho very challengeable) linking back to the
Liz Truss article. I think that these articles would be better served by in-article links one to the other rather than a category (hint: they are already linked).
Place Clichy (
talk)
12:25, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Fictional doomsday scenarios
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Category:DC Comics weapons
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Nominator's rationale: At its face, this is a 3-article category in one that isn't especially large, and where the objects in the subcategories are mostly not weapons. –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄)
12:12, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge There were probably more things in the category when I made it, but either way removal of non-notable items has caused it to become untenable as a category for now.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ)
12:15, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Given names with negative perceived cultural associations
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Nominator's rationale: This recently created category seems to be entirely subjective and doesn't meet
WP:NPOV,
WP:DUE,
WP:RS or satisfy
WP:DEFINING. It has been added to articles without the article once mentioning any "negative perceived cultural association" (e.g.,
Brandon (given name)), where the perceived cultural association arises from the name being used as a villain in a film (e.g.,
Ursula (name)), or even where the name became
more popularafter being used as the name of a protagonist in a film (e.g.
Samara (given name)). Ultimately, though, pretty much every name could be in the category, because I can probably find you a villain, criminal, or "negative perceived cultural association" for every name - real world or fictional - except for newly-invented Tragedeigh names: James - James Bond, regarded as a sociopath and misogynist by many. John - Long John Silver, notorious pirate. Mary - Typhoid Mary. And so on...
BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!12:00, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep. The names included in the character are those with reliable references that list them as having “negative perceived cultural references” and some sources do indeed list them as a group. The association was negative enough that it was written about. It’s not a list of names that you or I personally dislike. I haven’t found any sources that list Mary as a name with perceived negative associations. I think it is notable but go to it if you disagree.
Bookworm857158367 (
talk)
12:21, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment. All the names included in the category are listed by reliable sources as having “perceived negative cultural associations” and some sources list multiple such names together. It’s notable enough that it’s the first thing many people think of when they hear the name — i.e. Adolf or, these days, Brandon or Karen, to the point that it’s been written about at great length. Multiple sources are not mentioning Mary or John as names with negative perceived cultural associations because they’re too widely used.
Bookworm857158367 (
talk)
12:36, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
The subjectivity/arbitrariness is: negative associations to who? Game of Thrones fans might dislike or like someone named Daenerys, while others don't care. How is that representative of the general culture? The same thing applies to someone named Anakin and Star Wars fans compared to the public at large. When all it means is "negative associations by someone" it becomes essentially meaningless. That's all I will say on the subject, as it represents my incontrovertible thoughts about it.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ)
12:50, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Seeing as you bring it up again, I'll ask again - what's the "negative association" with the name Brandon? There is nothing in the article mentioning any negative connotation?
BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!12:58, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Thank you. So... entirely subjective. It might be well known among Trump supporters, but that means it's well known, at best, among less than half of the American electorate. For the rest of the world, it's an uncommon forename and surname.
BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!16:17, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete as too subjective. Even if a source gives a list of such names, they will only reflect that source's subjectivity, as perceived connotations by definition can only be subjective. Where I live, Kevin and Jennifer are among the given names most associated with negative cultural stereotypes, but they're not on any of the lists used to build this category apparently. Hence the subjectivity.
Place Clichy (
talk)
12:48, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Have any reliable sources listed them as having negative cultural associations? They probably could be included, if so. It’s not a category for names I personally perceive as negative. It’s one where the association is noteworthy enough that it’s among the first things they mention about the name.
Bookworm857158367 (
talk)
12:56, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
There's plenty of reliable academic coverage on the phenomenon, but it is usually in French. You didn't get the part when I wrote that this appreciation is local and subjective.
Place Clichy (
talk)
17:21, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Fictional ghost ships
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Category:Fictional aircraft carriers
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Fictional naval ships
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Sports families by nationality
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The result of the discussion was:rename all as nominated. A couple of notes:
The general principle (which received unanimous support) is renaming "Sports families of XYZ" to "XYZ sports families".
Category:Sports families of India was not listed in the nomination, but given it was mentioned in this discussion, tagged with a pointer to this CfD, and would qualify for C2C, I am IARing and including it in this close.
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Category:G.I. Joe vehicles
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Category:Fictional ships by type
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Category:Fictional seaplanes
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Category:Transformers: Super-God Masterforce character redirects to lists
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Category:Fictional rings (jewellery)
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Nominator's rationale: Unnecessary subcategory with 2 subcategories, 3 articles, and 1 redirect; one subcategory is already in the target, as is one of the articles. –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄)
11:08, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
Merge Per nom as unnecessary. If I was going to split the category, I would do it on the gemstones/jewelry line, not, arbitrarily, rings.
ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (
ᴛ)
11:31, 14 November 2023 (UTC)reply
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Category:Fictional musical instruments
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Category:Fictional objects by type
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